depth charge

by lboros on Feb 18, 2008 2:30 AM EST in News Comment 79 comments

happy president's day, one and all. it's monday, which must mean i'm getting on an airplane to somewhere or other; i'll be back home tuesday, and toward the end of the week there's a chance the new-look VEB will be unveiled. i'll try to provide a heads-up if possible.

you've heard by now that matt clement won't be ready by opening day. bernie miklasz is aggravated about it, and well within reason. i can't say i disagree with a word of his rant:

[W]hen the Cardinals signed Matt Clement, we were told he was golden. Fully recovered from shoulder surgery. Good to go. Uh, wrong again. Looks like we were fooled again. . . .

This episode is an important reminder: never believe it when the Cardinals insist that a rehabbing pitcher will return on schedule. The ballclub has simply been wrong too many times to have a shred of credibility on these matters.

Clement was a low-risk signing, and he still could pay off big. It wasn't a bad move to take a chance on him. But that's not the point of my complaint. The point is, I'm tired of the Cardinals spinning their nonsense on the medical status of their injured players. It just happens too often.

And like an idiot, I continually try to give them the benefit of the doubt, only to get burned again.

he's speaking for a lot fans; we feel burned, too. it's not that we're particularly surprised by this news; it's just vexing to see the club seemingly caught off guard by it --- especially when (as bernie points out) the cardinals could and should have signed an insurance policy for a rotation heavily dependent on two longshot reclamation projects (ie, mulder and clement). many's the observer (at VEB, at the P-D, in the national press) who thought the '08 rotation looked mighty thin --- and that an insurance policy like jon lieber (1 yr / $3.5m) or josh tower (1 yr / $1.8m) or livan hernandez (1 yr / $5m) might make a lot of sense. it's not as if this will be the last time a cardinal pitcher has a health issue; indeed, i'll be mildly surprised if this is the last setback for clement. the best-case scenario is that he and mulder will be back in may; but what's the worst-case --- july? september? never? let wainwright, pineiro, or looper strain a groin or suffer some stiffness in his shoulder, and . . . . . well, just let's not go there.

they still have options --- kyle lohse and a bunch of de facto DFAs like josh fogg, jeff weaver, and odalis perez, guys who not even the most pitching-starved teams wanted. any takers? if there's a silver lining here --- and it's a big one, in my opinion --- it's that anthony reyes stands a good chance of being in the rotation when the season opens. make the most of your chance, a-rey.

0 recs | Comment 79 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

It's not just pitchers.

The Cardinals have a long history of this kind of bullshit optimism about position players too.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 18, 2008 3:05 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

As posted on stltoday.com...

Wow...so now we're back to 2 of the 3: Reyes, Thompson, and Wellemeyer. Does anybody really believe that we'll get 10 wins out of the Carpenter (why is he already throwing?), Mulder, Clement trio? For that matter I'll throw in Reyes, Thompson, and Wellemeyer. Ten wins out of these 6 guys? Maybe. Twenty? No way. For the record the 6 of them combined for 13 wins last year...and Brad Thompson will not have 8 wins again.

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 18, 2008 4:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Free Agents

Yuck. No thanks. Not unless it's a minor league deal. None of these guys deserve 7 figures...well, maybe with incentives. I had the same opinion on Clement, and last year on Kip Wells. Livian would have been an absolute perfect fit. How nice would it have been to have 200 innings of Livian last year?(yeah, I know he had an off year, but look at what he would've replaced)? Ideally, I think the sweetest possibly thing would be to get World Series hero Jeff Weaver on a minor league invite (stick it to him for leaving the way he did) and have him pump out 200 solid innings. Let's assume he puts up numbers similar to what he did in his early Dodger years. Think we'd hear any of those "WEAVER! WEAVER!" chants? Not likely, but it'd be nice.

"Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead!" - Wayne Hagin after the cardinals snapped a losing streak

by The Ghost of Todd Burns on Feb 18, 2008 6:03 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Misled?

A quick google search yielded these quotes from Mozeliak at the time of the Clement signing:

"There's obviously medical risk in any type of decision like this"

"It's hard to gauge what it will look like at first"

"Obviously, there is some risk because of the surgery that he required. But we feel it was worth the risk."

"If health is there, he'll be one of our starters"

by birdo on Feb 18, 2008 6:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Misled by Bernie, yes

Thanks, birdo, for the quick Google search exposing Bernie's overreaction ("But, you said it would be wonderful! Whimper whimper...) for what his rants usually are. Substanceless and unresearched, and oh, I guess I should stop there, lest I get censured.

watching from Belgium

by waffle on Feb 18, 2008 7:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

On the other hand

"Cardinals general manager John Mozeliak said Clement is physically ready to pitch and "can be a solid addition to our starting rotation."

"Clement was examined Thursday by Dr. George Paletta, the Cards' head team physician, in a step that general manager John Mozeliak described as a "huge hurdle." However, Mozeliak said the club believes its new acquisition is healthy and will be ready to go for the start of the '08 season."

there's obviously medical risk in any type of decision like this," Mozeliak said. "But based on how he was able to pitch at the end of last season, albeit in instructional league games, and then going through the physical with Dr. Paletta today, we felt very confident that he's in a good place and he should be ready to go in Spring Training."

by Ray Lankford on Feb 18, 2008 8:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

technically...

the cardinals havent contradicted those statements. they still maintain that his shoulder has healed and that there are no structural problems. what is stalling clement is that he doesnt have the same level of strength that he formally had.

by dmb60614 on Feb 18, 2008 10:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Except that

the club believes he's healthy and ready to go at the start of the season.

by Ray Lankford on Feb 18, 2008 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

healthy and ready to go

he is (according the cards) healthy. they say there is nothing structurally wrong with the shoulder. ready to go is kind of subjective. in a manner of speaking, he is ready to go. he is healthy enough to pitch, he just wouldnt pitch very well. we can only hope that they are telling the truth that he checks out structurally.

while some of the quotes dont have qualifiers, given all of the quotes i think it is clear that they hoped clement would be "ready" by opening day but it was not a sure thing. i think the cards have definitely mishandled and misinformed on previous occasions. i dont really see anything wrong with this one though.

by dmb60614 on Feb 18, 2008 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

hmmm

he's ready to pitch in AAA to strengthen his arm and get his fastball up to speed/offspeed stuff working.

If he has to take 5-8 starts in AAA and comes up throwing a good low 90's fastball and decent offspeeders, i'll take that over 5-8 starts with a sub-90 fastball and more reliance on less quality pitches to back it up when we have reyes/wellemeyer who can pitch low/mid 90's fastballs and start the season fresh.

Cardwash - Cardinal, Washington fan (Washington???? Yeah, I know)

by cardwash on Feb 19, 2008 2:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

birdo, of course there's risk

and it was acknowledged up front, but the cards didn't cover it very well. they knew (as did we all) that both clement and mulder were very iffy propositions, but they didn't have a plan B beyond thompson & wellemeyer. perhaps they were a little too confident that the rehabbers would be healthy.

by lboros on Feb 18, 2008 8:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with Bernie

that the spin the Cards' brass spews out to the public - the "we're trying to contend this year," the "wait until Carp and Mulder come back" is ridiculous. They have turned into the boy who cried wolf.

But please understand that Clement is merely delayed in the rehab process - he just lacks the arm strength right now. It's not like his cough Mulder cough repair didn't heal or anything like that.

Man, how hard would it have been to sign Lieber for a measly $3.5 mil?

by silent_bob on Feb 18, 2008 8:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure if lboros or anyone on this sight can

answer this question but here it goes...
Duncan says they use long toss to strenthen the arm(and he doesn't mention anything else reg. Clement). A few years ago I(Mattnj) was coming off a very old rotator injury while pitching in HS. I had not thrown a ball in 8 years. I bought one of those $20 ball on a thick rubber band sets and hooked it up to a door and did about 3 sets of 60 every other day for 3 weeks...Let me tell you, my arm strenth was greater than it ever was. IF ITS JUST A MATTER OF ARM STRENGTH with Clement, AREN'T THERE A NUMBER OF WAYS TO STRENTHEN IT? DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT THEY ARE? and oh yeh...is someone gonna start listening to Dr. Mike Marshall?

mattnj

by mattnj on Feb 18, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Lack of Arm Strength

Lack of arm strength suggests a lingering injury rather than a lack of conditioning. It doesn't make sense to assume that Clement hasn't been doing lots of conditioning.

The conditioning just doesn't seem to be working.

It's kind of strange, but your body (the proprioceptive system) knows what it's capable of. If you have an injury, in some cases your body knows this and won't let you thow any harder than you are capable of throwing (no matter how hard or much you condition your arm).

All of this suggests to me that Clement isn't as healthy as he or the Cardinals think he is.

The same basic thing is what happened to Mulder.

by thepainguy on Feb 18, 2008 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Someone might start listening

When Marshall stops claiming there was a conspiracy against Marshall for this guy getting cut from the D-Rays. They might start listening when he stops calling Sparks "the most highly skilled pitcher in the world" only for him to show up throwing 83. Oh of course the Tigers scouts know how to rig their radar guns for one guy so it reads 5 mph cold.

Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Feb 18, 2008 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Very naive

of you to think that Matt Clement hasn't been using BAND EXERCISES to strengthen the rotator cuff.

That stuff has been around for 20 years. Google "thrower's ten."

Long toss is the gold standard for strengthening the throwing arm. All the other stuff is secondary.

by silent_bob on Feb 18, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

More tongue in cheek than naive...

This "strength" thing sounds like a load of you know what. Time will tell.

mattnj

by mattnj on Feb 18, 2008 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Long toss

Heck, look how Eck used to warm up before games.

by sdrone on Feb 18, 2008 10:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Why?

In a rebuilding season projected at 70 or so wins, why would it be necessary to have a plan B beyond Reyes/Wellemeyer/Thompson? Just to spend money?

If there's anywhere we have depth it's bullpen arms. Shifting a so/so swingman to the rotation doesn't hurt anything.

If we signed one of the options mentioned, what do we do when our rehab projects are ready to pitch? I see no reason a 70 win team needs one-year stopgap free agent pitcher riding pine, or in the rotation for that matter.

by RedbirdRay on Feb 18, 2008 3:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

bum wing

Should anyone be surprised by today's announcment about MC? Cardinal management possesses the credibility of a Pravda editorial. Ticket prices rise, consession prices soar, the team cascades downward. . .. and fans still fill the stadium while the owners laugh all the way to the vault.

by akaitori on Feb 18, 2008 7:19 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Everyone get ready

to shout me down again but, we NEED to get Kyle Loshe. If we overpay him on a one year deal I don't care. He IS healty and would be (gulp) our #2 starter. It's sad but needed. Dream Weaver is the only other option and that has its own risk because we don't know if Weaver would be any better than the fill-ins we have.

How did they let the rotation get to this point of neglect? They had to see something like this happening. Wishful thinking never got a batter out, healthy pitchers do.

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Feb 18, 2008 8:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I agree

We definitely need to sign either Lohse or Weaver as a backup plan. And those two are the only pitchers who interest me in the market right now.. I think we might be able to pick them up on a cheap 1-year deal and if so then I say go for it!!!!!

by Calhoun on Feb 18, 2008 11:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

More important

IMO is the health of Albert's elbow. I know I'm getting boringly repetitive on the medical staff, but how many gallons of kool-aid would I need to drink to have faith in their opinions?

by vinniefromjersey on Feb 18, 2008 8:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Not sure which is MORE important

Because I'm a lot more worried about our arms than our bats heading into the season, but I agree that Hombre's elbow is really scaring me right now.

by birdjam on Feb 18, 2008 10:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Some local station should make a pilot episode

of Dr. Paletta and his everyday practice. Maybe make it half sit-com and half-realty show. We could take bets on his misdiagnosis during each weeks episode.

What is even more funny is the team actually uses Paletta's advice to close the checkbook for the winter and spring. Good times ahead.

Nuthin'....I got nuthin'over here.

by Handsome Jimmy on Feb 18, 2008 8:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Let's put some blame on Clement here

If he was able to pitch in the instructional league last fall and then shows up with subpar arm strength 20 months after surgery you have wonder about his dedication. At least he had time to coach a 4th-grade basketball team...

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Feb 18, 2008 9:29 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

4th Grade Basketball Coaching

is actually one of the best ways to develop the arm strength used for pitching.

I base this assertion on absolutely nothing.

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Feb 18, 2008 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That's the kicker

There were indications late last season that Clement was ready to pitch competitively, but opted not to. So it's reasonable to expect that he'd be ready to go in early April.

But I don't blame Clement for this. One should always be extremely skeptical of any pitcher coming off surgery for a rotator cuff tear. For whatever reason, the Cards seem to believe in medical miracles when the track record of pitchers coming off this procedure screams "BUYER BEWARE"

Re Bernie, he should have known on his own that Clement is a big question mark, just like Mulder.

by Hungry Jack on Feb 18, 2008 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

So, does anyone

think that Rolen did the wrong thing by going to a non-team doctor now?

"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Feb 18, 2008 9:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Of course not

Why should they? People in the real world seek second opinions all the time. If I was told by one doctor that they needed to cut me open, I would not hesitate to see another doctor for another opinion. Unfortunately, the Cardinals orginization doesn't think in real-world terms.

by boredatwork on Feb 18, 2008 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Did anyone actually read why he won't be ready?

I think too many people Bernie included are blaming the Cards for something here when it isn't their fault. Medically he is ready, but his arm strength isn't there. Maybe the Cards should have had him on a throwing program sooner but I think that is the responsibility of the player not the team during the offseason. Duncan just doesn't want to count on Clement right now until is arm strength is there so he put him on a long toss program to get it up. This isn't a disaster and he isn't injured. He is completely healed, just like they told us when he was signed.

At least rant about the Cards not getting his arm strength up not about lying about his health.

by StLHugo on Feb 18, 2008 9:59 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I guess I'm not that aggravated about it

It was foolish from the get-go to count on him to make more than 20 starts or so. Was anyone counting on 30+ from him? If he starts a couple weeks late or a month late, it's about the same as him missing a month in the middle or the last month of the season.

And I'm w/ you, by starting late, at least Reyes or Boggs or Parisi or Hawksworth will get a chance. If it happened in June, they'd probably trade for a Jeff Weaver/Odalis Perez type if we were within sniffing distance of 1st. At least there's an opportunity for Reyes or one of the others now.

by chuckb on Feb 18, 2008 10:12 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I'm surprisingly ambivalent about this

and I'm hopeful we don't go and get a Weaver/Perez type. Would either of them be appreciably better than Parisi or Boggs? Maybe those players have been the plan B the whole time. . .

by azruavatar on Feb 18, 2008 10:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I really couldn't agree more

getting a "proven" guy with a 4.7+ ERA and 7 wins doesn't exactly scream upside to me.

by nmstar on Feb 18, 2008 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

insurance policy for the rotation

>>the cardinals could and should have signed an insurance policy for a rotation heavily dependent on two longshot reclamation projects (ie, mulder and clement).<<

I might be in the minority but I'm against signing an insurance policy. What will you get? An overpriced, league average pitcher on the backend of his career. We have one of those on our roster already perfectly capable of stepping in to the rotation and giving us league average innings. His name is Ryan Franklin. Why Franklin absolutely has to be a TLR setup man (a job he never held until last season) instead of going to the rotation is beyond me. Our bullpen is solid from the right side: Izzy, Springer, Wellmeyer and then there is Chris Perez who (according to Duncan's quotes in this morning's paper) they don't seem to be able to find a setup spot for. Here's a brain fart--slide Perez into a setup roll and move Franklin to the rotation.

I'm just sick of the Cards signing league average filler players on the back side of their careers and overpaying them at that. If we don't have a young starter who jump in and eat innings, then let's get creative. We have a young reliever who is ready to give it a go in the show. We have a reliever who spent most of his career as starter. Is it that hard to connect the dots and make the team younger?

by jjray on Feb 18, 2008 10:24 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Couldn't agree more

A few weeks ago there was a quote from Franklin in the Post. He said that he wasn't told he'd be doing any starting and now he isn't prepared to. He hasn't stretched his arm out to do anything but relief. I don't understand why they would do this. What would it have hurt to have him ready to start? Bad planning.

by Carps on Feb 18, 2008 11:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

time to stretch out Franklin

I doubt Franklin's offseason routine was that much different in preparation for a relief roll as opposed to if he was starting. The spring training routine would be different for sure but they just started throwing a few days ago. There is time to put Franklin on a plan for starters and stretch him out for the season. Also, I'm still optimistic Clement will start games in the 1st half of the season. As things stand now, they need a starter for a few months.

Another thought on why our bullpen will be fine from the right side if we move Franklin to the rotation. Carpenter really should be on the Matt Morris program in 2008 and pitch in relief.

by jjray on Feb 18, 2008 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

In fairness

LB's been advocating putting Franklin in the rotation for some time -- most recently (I believe) here

by chuckb on Feb 18, 2008 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

insurance policy

True, which surprise me that that he now posts the Cards made a mistake not picking up an insurance policy.

by jjray on Feb 18, 2008 11:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

the irony is

that franklin was last year's insurance-policy signing . . . . but the field management was / is too inflexible to use him when he was desperately needed. i'll never understand that; they were imaginative enough to envision looper as a starting pitcher, but --- after 3 months of good setup work by franklin --- they couldn't imagine any other pitcher in that role.

it's obvious that franklin's considered the setup man now, and the decision is set in stone. so even though he's a great insurance policy, they'll never put in a claim on it --- which means they need more insurance.

by lboros on Feb 19, 2008 8:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, but I think Bernie's misleading US

for the reasons some here have said. He's healthy. He won't be ready because of arm strength. Maybe some blame as far as the arm strength thing goes, but be specific and focus on that aspect.

by saladdays on Feb 18, 2008 10:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

To be fair,

DG was the one who broke the story. Bernie was doing nothing but reacting to, as he just said on the radio, his "own stupidity." And what he said is true; year after year after year, we are told that (insert name here) is healthy and ready for Opening Day. And year after year after year, we are lied to, and that pisses me off, as well.

"The moment we want to believe something, we suddenly see all the arguments for it, and become blind to the arguments against it."

by cardsrul on Feb 18, 2008 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

But I don't think

that's what Mo and others were saying about Clement. Perhaps they could have been more clear, but this issue seems more of a non-issue in the bigger picture of being misled.

by saladdays on Feb 18, 2008 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not that kind of doctor

so someone enlighten me here: when a pitcher undergoes the kind of surgery Clement had, how much of the rehabilitation from it is aimed at mobility and avoidance of scarring, and how much is aimed at restoring arm strength?

Again, I'm not an MD, nor a sports trainer, but it seems to me as if both have to be in the picture as part of the recovery process. It isn't like the re-strengthening of the arm goes independently of the rest of rehab. Of course it can't start until the arm is structurally sound enough to withstand the work, but it's still part of the time line for TJ surgery, for example.

What I wonder is: given a normal rehab from this surgery, and the fact that Clement did pitch in the fall, why isn't his arm at full strength (for the beginning of spring training, not mid-season) by now? I'm a lot more interested in that than I am at either defending, or pointing a finger at, the public-relations people.

by StanTheManFan on Feb 18, 2008 11:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

yeah...

Stan I do a lot of weight training in my life and I know that if you quit a certain exercise for a long time that your strength will decrease...its just common sense...
Unless you get in there and start doing that exercise your strength will not return...thats all MC needs to do he needs to pitch... rehabbing might make your arm healthier but it wont get your strength up to where it needs to be...

by Calhoun on Feb 18, 2008 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

General rehab strengthening

for rotator cuff/scapular stabilizers and other upper extremity musculature is all part of the rehab process - the interval throwing program comes next, but it is a fluid process. Strengthening/endurance work continues as the interval throwing program is progressed.

That being said, long tossing to strengthen the throwing arm is a completely different animal than general muscular strength and hypertrophy exercise.

Clear as mud, right?

by silent_bob on Feb 18, 2008 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

How does

The cubbies favorite drill help you out, throwing the towel ie. making the throwing motion full speed while holding a towel. As opposed to throwing in the towel which the cubbie do themselves at some point each year. Seemed like they had Prior and Wood throwing that stupid towel for about 4 years.

"Do what you want to the women and children but leave me alone"- George Carlin

by That's a Winner on Feb 18, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think that was just Prior

And I believe that's a Tom House thing designed to get your stride the right length.

Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Feb 18, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Let's not rule out the possibility

of one or more of our outfielders being traded this spring for pitching.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 18, 2008 11:34 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Or

Aaron Miles making his first professional start.

"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill

by lordsummer on Feb 19, 2008 8:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sucked into the Sideshow

Pure speculation here, but I have the gut feeling we're just being led down some pre-season donkey trail by the press. It's up to them where to begin the story, in media res, do we begin with a story of hope, expectation, a tragedy, is it an insurmountable struggle ... This year we begin with the construct of a broken machine, teetering on complete destruction, not only do we revisit the painful ongoing reality of our ace's comeback, the secondary never materialzed ace's goods in action, but we must also examine and sniff the possibility of our bat savior having elbow troubles - you know the ones he had when he was in left field 5 years or so ago - a scoop they call it. I guess his foot must be kinghell fine cause I haevn't heard a peep about that lately. Not being a writer I can only guess where we are led next, let me guess, our new hot corner man is feeling the best he has since prom night, our SS has a range not seen since Mr. Smith, the outfield is galloping, the coach will brand this team with an iron so hot they will lock step to glory or die trying.

Hell, i just wanna get this thing started, good, bad or ugly, and then i'm happy to read the boxscore, peruse the standings and see what really happens.

Other mysteries remain. TL

by BKKCard on Feb 18, 2008 12:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Bright Side

Hey LB, look on the bright side (a potentially very meaningful one). This means in all likelyhood Reyes will have a rotation spot-- right? He gets one last shot before Mo' deals him away for a bag of balls.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Feb 18, 2008 1:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

ARey

My favorite vivaelbirdos topic :)

I was glad to read Derrick Goold's blog today about Anthony. I personally have felt he looked a little out of shape the last few seasons. I like that he is working out hard--getting eye surgery (earlier article)--enjoying the game again.

There is no reason he doesn't become this teams #4 starter. He probably won't turn out to be the guy we thought he might a few years back but no reason we can't adjust expectations and expect a solid #3 starter.

He has the opportunity now--no doubt. While not great, if he can be the #3/4 type guy you at least have a young #2/3 in Wainwright, #3/4 in Reyes and Garcia. Not world beaters--but not an awful place to start.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Feb 18, 2008 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I dunno...

The huge difference between how he pitched in the majors and minors the last couple years clearly shows (at least to me) the problem is not so much physical. He had a hard time finding the strike zone in the majors, something that was never a problem in the minors.

That said, maybe working with this SWAT guy will help him cope with Duncan/Tony

by DiscoJer on Feb 18, 2008 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

true

and he also stunk pitching with runners on base--good with them not on base.

Simple--don't let em get on base :)

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Feb 18, 2008 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Just Bring on Dreamweaver

to help me make it through the niiiiiiight.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 18, 2008 1:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

oh yes he will be ours

oh yes...i love the ionclusion of that song in Waynes world

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Feb 18, 2008 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The forest for the trees.

I think we need to step back and be realistic about where the cardinals are going this year and in the future. We're not winning much of anything this year, regardless of Clement's health. Patching up the rotation with low-upside veterans-even at "bargain" prices would be wasteful. The best approach to this year is to throw guys like Boggs, Parisi, Perez, and maybe Ottavino into the mix see what we may have with them. There is no need to rush a Garcia, but just about time that these guys should contribute at least as well as a Lohse or Weaver. We should just approach this year as open try-outs for the next competitive Cardinal team, hopefully in 2009 but more likely 2010. We have to pay the piper for years of futility in developing young players and for hanging on to guys like Edmonds and Eckstein a little too long. And even if we don't win like we're accustomed, it should be fun (not to mention much fodder for discussion) to see what we may have in the young, fresh faces.

by zarathustra on Feb 18, 2008 1:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Cubs sign Alex cintron

Ok not sure about this guys stats and was unaware he was a FA, But recently I was thinking why couldnt the cards have gotten this guy over IZZY 2.

His games have signifigantly gone down the last 2 yrs but used to be a halfway decent guy...doesnt matter he got a minor league deal with cubbies, but given full playing time like he did in AZ he might have been a decent option

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Feb 18, 2008 3:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Just another reason

for me to extremely dislike Alex Cintron.

"All the details for a feel-good tale were in place, until Arizona's Alex Cintron crashed into Rolen's left shoulder during Game 2 of the National League division series . . ."

I firmly believe that if Cintron had not plowed into Rolen, he'd still be the Cardinals 3B. Results of the 2002 post season might have been altered too, but it was the injury upon injury that led to the soap opera departure of the best fielding 3B (with apologies to Ken Reitz) the Cardinals have ever had.

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Feb 18, 2008 6:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

oops

Follow this link for the reference on the above quote about the 'feel-good tale'.

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Feb 18, 2008 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with you

The Cintron injury led the way for all the problems that came afterwards. (Choi, of course, didn't help.)

C70 at the Bat

by Cardinal70 on Feb 18, 2008 6:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i had forgotten about that since

well they won one since then. But I think the Choi thing did more damage, cause wasnt there a good season or two in bewteen incidents?

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Feb 18, 2008 8:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

May Hee-Sop Choi

burn in hell. And Cintron too.

That is all.

"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Feb 18, 2008 10:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Better add Scott Erickson

to that list. He's the clownshow who threw the ball to Choi. If you can call it a throw.

youneverknow

by meat on Feb 18, 2008 11:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

wow toss a few names around here can be trouble..

thought winning cured all? Ha maybe a therapy session is in order..

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Feb 19, 2008 12:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

with all due respect to Rietz

let us not forget another Kenny who played a pretty damn good 3rd base for the Cards...last named Boyer.

by Timbo02 on Feb 19, 2008 12:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

We could do worse

than Lohse on a one-year deal.

On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Feb 18, 2008 4:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

hey guys

where can you find out what the average position player hits, EX: the average right fielder hits .........???
Im writing a cardinals season preview for my colleges paper and would like to do some position by position comparisons...
I cant decide if i want to use the 08 VORP projections or your standard ba/obp/slg...any better/other ideas???

Check out the VEB group on facebook...search groups for Viva El Birdos

by Dttl89 on Feb 18, 2008 6:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Park adjusted

Baseballthinkfactory.org has them in the ZiPS projections

Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Feb 18, 2008 8:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

to find the average for a given season

go to baseball-reference.com, select "league", then go to batting splits. Scroll down to the splits by "defensive position".

2007 ML splits are here...

by SleepyCA on Feb 19, 2008 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Curious

what the PECOTA projections were for the 2004 Cardinals. I seem to recall a third place finish was predicted for that team from somewhere. I am curious if PECOTA predicted that caliber of a team. Sometimes I wonder if we put too much stock in these projection systems. To me it's like a broad stroke of paint, but it misses the finer details. (It doesn't know how to take into account the fact that Reyes started working out with a SWAT instructor.) I think if they got DEEP BLUE to start doing these things, then it can get a whole lot better. Back to my point...I think that some here and elsewhere are already writing this team off. I believe that is a bit premature.

Here I Am, Rock You Like a Hurricane

by OKCardsfan on Feb 18, 2008 6:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

i never believe the Cards

when they say a guy is healthy. like silentbob said, they have become the boy who cries wolf to a lot of fans now when they say a player is healthy. it's sad really that we fan can no longer believe a word they say when it comes to our Cardinals.

i just hope they dont over pay to get a fringe pitcher. let Anthony & the kids battle it out for the last two rotation spots & may the best man win.

and please, Tony, let it be a real competition. not the same BS you've pulled in the past. think of the "competition" he had Anthony, Wagonmaker vs Sid Ponson a couple seasons ago for the final rotation spot. anyone with a pulse knew that was a load of crap. Sid was going to be the 5th stater no matter what.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Feb 18, 2008 6:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

i love how

everyone jumps on Mo when it was Duncan who said he didn't have the arm strength to pitch effectively. and even at that he said that there's a chance he could be. and imo if a couple weeks is the difference between him pitching like a #2/3 pitcher and pitching at replacement level i'll take it. do people really think its going to take him a whole month of the season to build up arm strength?

and last time i checked the phrase "having the arm strength to pitch effectively and attack pitchers" wasn't analogous to the phrase "being healthy."

the PD needs to hire some new sports writers. or at least say bye to gordo, bernie, and burwell. let me them go to the kc star and join the blowhorn that is jason whitlock. i'm surprised people still read there columns. i'll stick to strauss and DG.

can't say that i'm surprised everyone is overreacting given our history with medical problems though.

by FutureMan on Feb 18, 2008 9:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

signing a replacement level free agent

kind of goes against the youth movement doesn't it. wasn't everybody pissed when we signed ponson instead of letting a rey/wainer pitch? granted parisi, boogs, and garcia might not be as far along as those two where but they are not that far off? does the youth movement only apply for position players? we can't wait to let ryan and hoff (who hasn't even shown up to camp yet) play but we want to sign veteran "insurance" for the rotation?

by FutureMan on Feb 18, 2008 9:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Suicide watch

I had some time to kill today while waiting on a client with nothing to entertain me but my mobile phone. So, since wap.mlb.com is a very mobile-friendly site, I thought I would do a bit of browsing.

I find myself reading a story about how Miguel Cabrera has dropped 15+ pounds and how psyched he is to be in the same room with Ordonez, Renteria, Willis, Verlander, Bonderman, Zumaya, etc., etc... and I just got really, really depressed. Why can some pizza tycoon in freaking Detroit put together a team like this and I have watch poor Albert suffer through this crap? Maybe we should get a really rich owner, like a brewery or something, no wait...arrggghhh

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Feb 18, 2008 10:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs