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PECOTA on cards: 72-90

Baseball Prospectus released its PECTOA-based team projections --- the 2008 final standings in february. this exercise was very accurate last year, especially where our team was concerned: BP correctly called the order of finish at the top of the nl central and pegged the cards as an 81-81 team that would struggle to score runs. the news is quite a bit worse this year: PECTOA sees the cards as one of the worst teams in the league, a 72-90 club. only the pirates are projected to finish with a worse record (71-91); the nats and giants are also tabbed for 72-90. the astros come in at 74-88.

the cardinals' projected run total stands 14th in the national league; last year PECOTA projected the cards to finish 15th (they wound up 11th). their projected total of runs allowed ranks 11th out of 16; PECOTA was way off the mark in this regard last season, predicting that the cards would finish 2d in the league in this category (ha ha ha).

as luck would have it, BP is letting you peek at the cards' player-by-player projections for free; that sneak preview usually applies to the two reigning pennant-winning teams, but for whatever reason BP is using the league champs from 2 years ago, the cardinals and tigers. their projection assumes a starting lineup of molina behind the plate, with pujols kennedy izturis and glaus around the infield and duncan rasmus and ankiel in the outfield. it reflects the confusion at several of the positions; at 2b, for example, BP has kennedy getting 50 percent of the playing time, with miles and ryan splitting the remainder 30-20; the breakdown at shortstop is 70 percent izturis, 15 miles and 15 ryan. right field is divided up among four players --- ankiel 45 percent, schumaker 30, ludwick and barton 10 each --- and centerfield is shared by rasmus (55 percent) ankiel (40) and schumaker (5).

those all sound like pretty good guesses to me; they might underestimate aaron miles' playing time, but in general i think that's how it'll shake out. the scary thing is that this projection has pujols --- whose PECOTA line is the best in baseball among hitters --- playing 95 percent of the time. if he goes down for any length of time, yeesh.

the projections on the pitching side have to be taken with a huge grain of salt --- BP was way off on them last year for st louis, and they're not likely to do much better this year due to the high number of health-related questions on the staff. but for whatever BP's opinion is worth, the rotation isn't this team's chief concern: the collective era comes out to 4.46. if the starters achieve that, i think the cards will be worth watching this summer. the projection assumes 22 starts from anthony reyes at a 4.32 era and 10 effective starts from chris carpenter --- may both of those things come to pass. the bulk of the rotation --- wainwright, looper, pineiro, clement, wellemeyer, and thompson --- checks in collectively at ~ 4.50, with mulder getting pounded for 15 starts (5.71 era). but BP has the cards' bullpen getting raked, and no wonder --- their projection assumes 65 innings for dewon brazleton, 40 for cliff politte, and 50 for kelvin jimenez --- 155 innings in the aggregate, or more than 10 percent of the team's project total. the aggregate innings total for those three pitchers is gonna be a lot closer to 0 than to 165. whether their likely replacements (including chris perez and mark worrell) are any better remains to be seen. since bullpen management is among tony/dave's greatest strengths as a management team, i'm not too worried about it.

no projection system is perfect, but PECOTA is rarely way off the mark. the overall projection of 72 wins is a serious reality check. to contend in 2008, the cards will have to beat that projection by a dozen games; to have a chance at winning anything, they'll have to beat it by 15 or more. i can't think of a single team in the last 3 years that beat its PECOTA projection by that wide a margin. Update [2008-2-16 10:25:40 by lboros]: ok, here's an example, pointed out by realbrit70 in the comments: the 2006 tigers were projected as a 79-win team; they won in the mid-90s. a ray of hope!

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Somethings I disagree with
I don't know how they split their counting stats for a player when he shows up multiple times but Ankiel is showing 29 HRs in both RF and CF, does that mean he will hit 29 all season or 29 from each position?  The PAs does change but that seems like the only stat that does.  If they forgot to change that then he might actually lose some of his VORP at each position (currently 21 in RF and 20 in CF).  I am guessing they leave the full season projection listed for each player and only multiply the PAs by the PT% for this chart but do multiply it all the way through for the VORP value.

I also think they underestimate Rasmus in CF but I do admit that I would be happy if he hit .245/.327/.437 with 12 HRs even if I think he will do more then that.

Gary Bennett is also listed in the middle of the CFs as a C with 20 playing time, but LaRue and and Yadi add up to 100% time as well, something odd there.

Lastly as you said the pitching stats are just off the wall, Looper and Pineiro have a save a peice, Mulder has 15 starts and is our only negative VORP pitcher, besides Brazelton who is currently hurt and might not play.  Jimenez (is he even still on the team?) is listed in the pen and I doubt he sees it this year.  Also all of our starters have ~.500 records, I just don't see all of them being .500 with 4.xx ERAs like it is showing.

Yes it is a reality check but I still think that predicting this year could be very tricky with how much we expect the minor leaguers to help and I don't see any of our minor league pitchers even listed (Perez even) and Rasmus is the only position player listed.

by StLHugo on Feb 16, 2008 9:30 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel
Ok I figured out the Ankiel part, so just ignore it. http://baseballprospectus.com/pecota/ankieri01.php he is projected for 20.6 vorp at each position, not sure how I misread that and the counting stats aren't counted twice.

by StLHugo on Feb 16, 2008 9:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

cliff politte?
Did I miss an acquisition?

by sdrone on Feb 16, 2008 9:32 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Must of
Politte and Brazelton are both being sidelined because of injuries right now, but both are in camp.  One of the lead stltoday articles right now.

by StLHugo on Feb 16, 2008 9:37 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rick at .257/29 hr/100 rbi
in only 373 at bats?  Am I reading that right?  Well, I'll certainly take that.   Hell, I'll go back to calling him Roy.

by sdrone on Feb 16, 2008 9:37 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Not sure how it works
As I said in my comment I am not sure how it works but I think the counting stats are combined RF/CF while the PAs are split so it is more like 29 HRs in  about 500 PAs

by StLHugo on Feb 16, 2008 9:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah
Ok I figured it out, it is like that here is his page: http://baseballprospectus.com/pecota/ankieri01.php
600 PAs total.

by StLHugo on Feb 16, 2008 9:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, thanks
That makes a LOT more sense.  Rick playing every day.

I'll tell you though, 29 hr/100rbi, he's still Roy in my book.

by sdrone on Feb 16, 2008 10:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Projections be damned...
I think this team will bounce back. I like the pithcing. Even without Carp & Mulder we have a staff reminicent of the dominant seasons where we had a slew of 3 & 4 starters that gave us
consistency & a chance to win every night. I like the offense as well and look foward to them launching bombs all over the league this year. The defense should be better. The pen was great and can be better as well if Perez and Worrell make the team. Lots of depth, youth, talent...

I'm calling for second place finish and challenging for the Wild Card. If we get Carp back and he is sharp I give us a chance to win the  division.

Pass the kool-aide around becuase this is going to be a fun year.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Feb 16, 2008 9:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

NL Central
Knocking on our division seems to be my raison d'etre lately, but I think in the NL Central, we'd be challenging for the division title way before the Wild Card.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country

by Mr Redbird on Feb 16, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd still be willing to bet
that the NL Wild Card team has a better record than the NL Central champ at the end of the year.
Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country

by Mr Redbird on Feb 16, 2008 2:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the BP link
much appreciated.  I am curious that Skip projects to three times as many at bats as the Ludder given that Rasmus is on the team.  I think the only way SS gets 292 ABs is if Colby stays in AAA most of the year.  When CR and Ank are both on the roster I have a hard time seeing Skip play much at all if he is even around.
Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Feb 16, 2008 9:53 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'd just like to point out...
That PECOTA had the 2006 Detroit Tigers as a 79 win team:

http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2006/03/tiger-seasonal-previews/

As we know they went on to win 95 and make it to the World Series. PECOTA did recognise the possibility of the Tigers being better than the 79 wins if their young players developed.

Could we be in the same position if our young players get playing time and/or develop as we hope they might?

by realbrit70 on Feb 16, 2008 9:56 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Also,
If Mulder is that bad, I can't see him staying around particularly long, at least int he rotation.  It seems like, aside from Albert, the projections are pretty worst-case.

by Valatan on Feb 16, 2008 1:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Appreciate the optimism
Not to be glib, realbrit, but what young players?  Outside of Rasmus, I don't see much young talent we can hope to truly break out beyond these projections.  As Lboros noted, the projection on Reyes is already fairly favorable.

The '06 Tigers had far superior young talent - Verlander, Bonderman, Granderson, et al.  Looking at that team, the journeyman-type veterans were also a lot better than what we've got.  A middle infield of Polanco and Carlos Guillen is a damn sight better than Kennedy and Izturis.

by bgodar on Feb 16, 2008 5:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

72-90 vs. 90-72
If, and this is a BIG if, people stay healthy and/or return to form, they could be a 90 win team in this division.

Glaus raked in arizona, and he played well in AL east, which easily has far better pitching, but he has to stay healthy. Clement pitched ok in the AL too, when healthy. If Mulder can show any reason why the birds traded haren and others for him. I don't expect anything from carp, but you never know. Kennedy returns to something close to his angel days. The youngin's show up big, well i can see 90 wins, and that will win this division. I also can't get why the bullpen hating, this was the strength last year, and now they just suck? wtf

On the other side of the coin, Pujols, glaus, etc. go down 72 wins could be very sugar coated.

"if horses where wishes, then beggars would ride"

"Textbooks are Soviet propaganda" - Rev. Jerry Falwell

by elirock83 on Feb 16, 2008 10:33 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

agree
if "Ifs" were fifths, we'd all be drunk.
"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Feb 16, 2008 2:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

this will BE a better team
than 'o7, I think.  We aren't as likely to take as many disappointing hits and other crazy interferences as we had last year.
The big one being Carpenter going down after only one start.  Sheesh.  Any objective person would have drawn a serious breath right there.
--Mulder's re-hab not working out well
--Kennedy stinking up the joint
--Tony's lingering brooding after his embarrassing DUI
--a relief pitcher getting killed
--the on-going feud TLR/Rolen
--neither Rolen nor Jimbo's health what it might have been

And on and on

Th Reds ARE better, but still with a specious bullpen and they have Dustbag to screw it up.
The Astros have a chemistry roll of the dice more likely to fizzle than click.
Milwaukee is still poor defensively.

If we can stay with the Cubs, we have a chance.

by the Tewk on Feb 16, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Woohoo!
Top 5 draft pick!

I am kinda glad this year we have a middle pick.  I think lots of teams will break out of the slot recommendations.  I am not sure the Cardinals will.   However, even if they don't but see many other teams doing so...we might see a more likely shoot for the moon pick next year.

by RedbirdRay on Feb 16, 2008 11:09 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

What stands out
is that we can't get a net .1 VORP (that's a point 1 not a full 1) out of our starting middle infield.

I would like the Cardinal organization explain why this wont happen. I know they wont...but still.

by Harknights on Feb 16, 2008 11:11 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Blort
More quantification of what a train wreck our middle infield is.  

It's probably worth noting that VORP doesn't include defense, but even if you allow for Izturis as a plus defender and Kennedy a tick above average, it doesn't dig us out of this hole.  We're 24 points below the Cubs dubious duo of Theriot and DeRosa, and I haven't found any other team that projects a primary starter below replacement level.

by bgodar on Feb 16, 2008 5:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Damn
Awhile back I had written a big long post that took me like 1.5 hours why I thought the Rays would be a .500 team and with about 5 breaks could be playing for the playoffs over one of the evil empires.  Then I just deleted it before posting because I thought I was too delusional.  

Now PECOTA has them at 82 wins with in my eyes fairly pessimistic projections (at the very least, Longoria/Crawford/Pena/Upton have way more upside than their simple lines) on 4 of the regulars and the pitching staff isn't getting the right starters in the mix with Sonnanstine not getting enough innings and one or two of Davis/McGee/Price working out of the pen.  Plus if the Rays have a shot they've still got the minor league guns to get someone too.

Just to rehash: I'm optimistic on the Rays.  We'll see how that works out...

Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Feb 16, 2008 11:26 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I agree, Joker.
I think the Rays should be a .500 team or so this year, and I think they'll challenge for a playoff spot in the next 2-3 years.  The caveat there, of course, is that they will have an extremely limited window in which to contend, given the top of that division.  They simply don't have the financial resources to keep it all together, and, while they've obviously done a fantastic job with the farm system, better records will keep them from having quite such advantageous drafting positions, and they will inevitably cycle back down again.  I do believe, though, contrary to what some may say, that the Rays will have a chance to be truly competitive in the next couple of years.  Their window just won't be be very large.  

At the very least, that's a team that could be incredibly fun to watch on any given night.  Count me in on the Tampa bandwagon.

"An informed citizenry is the enemy of the despot, the zealot, and the sports columnist."

by the red baron on Feb 16, 2008 1:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the problem always is
the division they play in.  I have a warm spot in my heart for the Rays, but they get outrageously out-spent by every team in the division and brutally so by the top two.
But I do agree this is their year to have some fun and open some eyes.

by the Tewk on Feb 16, 2008 4:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

AL East
Just noticed that they have the rebuilding A's second and the M's last. I thought this was interesting especially with the Bedard trade. With a one two of Bedard and Felix Hernandez I thought they would at least contend but maybe pecota is right on with their weak offense.

Any ideas on why they're higher on the A's in rebuilding mode than the M's who seem to be going for it?

by Wizard24 on Feb 16, 2008 3:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

If the A's finish in 2nd
in the AL East, I'll shave my entire body.

I keed, I keed.

Cardinal fan in the heart of Braves country

by Mr Redbird on Feb 16, 2008 3:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

AL West
Triumph, thank you for the geography help.I'll figure out east and west coast later on in life.

by Wizard24 on Feb 16, 2008 8:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

From over at USS Mariner
ZiPS has the A's over the Mariners too.  

Then Dave used fairly rosy projections with wOBA to come up with 82-83 wins.

Using ZiPS again he just shut down Hardin and Gaudin and the A's came out ahead of the Ms.

Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Feb 16, 2008 4:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re: mariners
it looks like the M's were projected without bedard and with adam jones.  shouldn't add more than a couple of wins to their total, though.

by moboiler on Feb 17, 2008 7:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Talking Pecota and Prospectus
Joe Sheehan's comment that led to the big debate about the Cardinals trading Pujols was about the Cardinals not being contenders for a few years.

Are the Cardinals THAT bad?  I mean, when comparing the 2005 team to say, the 2009 team, are the Cardinals THAT much worse?

As constituted now, they aren't very good.  I'm not trying to say they are.  However, 2009 will present a decent talent pool of FAs.

For one second, let's say Bill DeWitt opens up Bernie's favorite term 'DeWallet' and gets into the FA market.

The team has needs at 2B, one of the OF positions and the starting rotation.  If the Cardinals added atleast one of the Orlandos: Hudson or Cabrera wouldn't that sure up the position players (barring injury)?

I guess in the end, it still all comes down to pitching.  The Cardinals don't have it (unless some miracles happen with the walking wounded) but I can't believe that this team is THAT bad off that they will be bottom of the division finishers for years to come.

Still looking for 1985 Regular Season games on DVD/VHS

by Hardcore Legend on Feb 16, 2008 8:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Pujols
Is it me, or is anyone else expecting more than 33 home runs from Albert??

by 2x41z2tu on Feb 17, 2008 9:53 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

its stuff like this that
gives ammo to the anti stat guys. i'm not looking to start a fight here, i'm just saying as someone who rides the fence on the issue, when on of the leaders in the field of stats says your team is going to be one of the worst in the league, that's going to piss a lot of fans off.

i for one think BP is wrong. dead wrong. the only way the Cards have this bad of a record is if Albert's elbow blows out, the rotation goes up in flames, Miles gets 500 AB's as the SS, & Rick, LUD & DUNK play without wearing shoes. otherwise they'll contend for the division crown & be a middle of the pack team in the NL.

this is not a great team. but they are not a 70 win team either.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Feb 17, 2008 10:38 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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