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Jan 3 Hot Stove --- Cards Sign Clement

Update [2008-1-3 16:26:32 by lboros]: Cards Sign Clement to one-year deal.

Matt Clement, who last pitched for the Boston Red Sox in 2006, signed a one-year contract with the Cardinals today. The deal includes a club option for 2009.

Clement's base salary was not immediately known. The contract includes significant incentives for appearances.

Clement, 33, had shoulder surgery in September 2006. He has an 87-86 record with a 4.47 earned-run average to show for a nine-year career that began with the San Diego Padres.

[end update]

* * * * * * * * *

Nick Swisher traded.

From Yahoo.com, I saw that the A's traded Nick Swisher for 2 minor league pitchers and Ryan Sweeney from the White Sox.  Swisher is a saber-hero, with his good pop and phenomenal walk rates.

This trade is interesting in that it seems people have generally burst the Billy Beane bubble for saber-metric genius.  Sorry Azruavatar.  It seems your darlings are finally getting their due.  

From what I gathered at MLB Traderumors, the pitchers that the Sox gave up were their top 2 pitching prospects in the deal.  

What does this mean for us?  Does this de-value Duncan and Ankiel, as their OBP is never going to be great?  I think it certainly lowers the bar for anything we can get for Reyes.  If the pale hose had to give up this kind of pitching talent for a decent CF with a good batting eye, surely Reyes won't be worth a bag of chips, will he?

I believe this trade at LEAST reflects the move to the saber-metric means of measuring players has resonated throughout the league.  No longer are guys like Swisher and co. going to fly under the radar and sign cheap contracts.  

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How does this burst Beane's bubble?
I think the guy is overrated, but he's doing a tremendous job this off-season of restocking his talent pool.  Trading a poor-field (only 6 CF's in MLB were worse, by PMR), good hitting CF for two potential top-of-the-rotation starters and a former top prospect CF is a pretty smooth move, especially if Beane manages to pick up coco crisp for cheap to replace him.  By moving swisher to CF this year he increased his value tremendously...

Nick Swisher's 2006-2007 offensive performances (.830-.860 OPS) are actually a good estimate for what we can expect out of Ludwick next year, imho, except with better defense and for close to league minimum the next 2 years.  I'm kind of shocked that is worth what the white sox just paid.
 

by SleepyCA on Jan 3, 2008 3:21 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's obvious to me
that Kenny Williams is in over his head.  He should be building his farm system right now by trading away veterans like Thome, Dye, and Buerhle to be in position to make a run at 2011 with a bunch of young talent, similar to what Cleveland has done.  Instead he's trading pitching assets (McCarthy, Garland) for offensive help in a division where you need a deep pitching staff to be able to compete.  All the other clubs in that division (yes, even Kansas City) have good pitching staffs at the MLB level or have good young pitching prospects ready to make the leap.

I do believe that this was a bit of an overpay, but not by much.  Swisher is 3 years from free agency and is headed into his prime, is a switch hitter that can play a lot of different positions, and has a very high walk rate, which is en-vogue right now (and imo, overvalued somewhat).

Oakland fans are up in arms about this deal, but it's obvious that Beane is trying to maximize value in what is a cruddy offseason for free agents, and has done a marvelous job by spinning 2 good players into 6 top prospects.  It falls in line with Oakland's organizational philosophy, I'm just not sure what the philisophy of the White Sox organization is at this point!

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 3, 2008 3:50 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why should he be making a run at competing
3 years from now?  He runs a club in a major market, 2 years removed from a World Series.  Being competitive once every 6 years isn't EVERY teams idea of a good way to plan for the future.

Selling off what you've got to compete down the road doesn't always work (see: Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Texas)

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 3, 2008 3:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Since you asked...
Lets look at the division and the White Sox roster:

The White Sox have Thome, Dye, Konerko.  The last two are about to become 10-5 players within the next two years, so you can't just trade them anywhere which makes it harder to get value.  All are on the wrong side of 30 and will probably have skills that start to diminish in the next 3-4 seasons.  Thome also has an injury history and is already showing signs of slowing down.  They are the cornerstone of the ballclub along with Buehrle -- who is more of a #2 pitcher instead of an ace.  

They've traded away their second best pitcher (Garland) for a 33 year old SS coming off a career year, traded minor league talent for Carlos Quentin, who hasn't proven anything yet, and now moved your top three A and AA prospects for Swisher.  Swisher either plays LF displacing Quentin, or CF displacing Jerry Owens your leadoff hitter.  In CF he hurts the outfield defense tremendously since neither he, Quentin, or Dye have much speed.  You say they're 2 years removed from a championship, but look how they won that championship -- great pitching and a timely offense that could create runs with speed at the top of the order and mashers in the middle.  This team is shaping up to be the inverse of that, station-to-station baseball waiting for the big fly, with not as much pitching depth and not near as good a bullpen even after overpaying for Scott Linebrink.

Now lets break down the division:

Minnesota: The Twins open a new ballpark this year, have one pitcher with a foot out the door (Santana), one with an uncertain future (Liriano), and just traded away another for young outfield talent (Garza).  They lost Torii Hunter but replaced his bat with Delmon Young -- didn't replace his glove.  They have Morneau and Mauer under control for a few more seasons before they'll have to make a decision on them.  In short, the Twins should be competitive in the future as they have a strong farm system and good young talent that they may be able to hold onto if attendance is better at the new ballpark.

Detroit: They have a great team going into 2008, they traded most of their top prospects to acquire one solid SS (Renteria) and one keystone franchise piece (Cabrera).  They have 5 key players that probably won't be around in 3 years however (Sheffield, Granderson, Pudge, Ordonez, and Rogers)  Verlander is a stud, but the rest of the pitching staff and bullpen have a lot of questions, and Verlander will require a max contract when he becomes a free agent.

Cleveland: Like Detroit, great chance to make a run in 2008, but quite a few questions in the 2 or 3 years after that.  Sabathia is a free agent after next season and will require max money.  Martinez, Hafner, Sizemore, Carmona, and Peralta are all going to start getting expensive in the next 3 or 4 years via arbitration or free agency.  They still have a good to great farm system, but the current Indian team will probably see a major makeover in the next 2 or 3 seasons unless they have a major increase in payroll from being 23rd in the league last year, when no Indian player made more than $10 million.

Kansas City:  Good young talent (Gordon, Butler, DeJesus, Teahen, Pena Jr.) coupled with solid free agent signings (Meche, Guillen) will give the Royals a chance to compete for the next couple of years.  In my mind they need one more solid pitcher in their rotation to become legitimate contenders.  They have good pitching talent in the minors, but many of those farmhands haven't panned out lately (Zach Greinke, please stand up).  If any of them do I expect the Royals to be a solid contender in a couple of years unless they make a really bad trade or signing.

Looking at this division, does it make sense for the White Sox to corrupt their farm system to put together a team that's going to struggle to win the wild card in this division?  You have 2 playoff teams (Tigers & Indians), one team loaded for a rebound year (Twins) and one really young team that never keeps its talent when they reach free agency (KC).  This division will be the best in baseball until 2010 or 2011.  After that, the Twins will have to make a decision on the M&M boys, as well as Liriano and Delmon Young, Detroit will no longer have Sheffield, Rogers, and Pudge, and have Guillen and Ordonez in their late thirties hogging payroll needed to sign Cabrera and Verlander to long term deals, and Cleveland will either have to double it's payroll to keep who they currently have or let some of it's talent go.  As the franchise is currently being run Thome will be retired, Dye and Konerko will be either gone or untradeable for good talent, Pierzinski will be in his second career as a bar bouncer, and the farm system will have been depleted enough to keep it from replenishing those players with good talent.  It would be better to sell fairly high on those players, cut payroll, and be in a position to sign or trade for some of the lucrative free agents coming available in the next couple of years.

In truth, the White Sox are in a similar situation as the Cardinals, with a better pitching staff and short one future HOF player.  After next year the Cards would be 2 years removed from a title, so should they trade off their three best minor league pitchers (Garcia, Boggs, et al) and their second best pitcher (Wainwright) for a 33 year old SS making big $$$ and an .800 OPS switch hitter who plays four positions?  Not to mention that the Sox don't have a prospect near as touted as Colby Rasmus waiting in the wings.  

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 3, 2008 6:05 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Minnesota's new ballpark....
...isn't scheduled to open this season. Or next season, actually.

 It's scheduled to open in April, 2010. Even that is looking doubtful. The tragedy of the collapse of the I35 bridge has also caused a delay on the groundbreaking and construction of the new park.

 They just poured the first concrete pour on Dec. 17th, 2007.

by lemon20pie on Jan 4, 2008 8:19 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Beane
Beane made his name acquiring low BA, high OPS types like swisher.  It seems to me like people have caught on.  These guys now carry a lot of value.  I think it will be hard for him to pry these guys away from other teams any more.  
I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Jan 3, 2008 5:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no
He made his name exploiting a market inefficiency, which happened to be "high-OBP players".  He didn't have the money to sign and keep the high-BA/SLG types, who the market over-valued at the time, and he came to the conclusion that those stats were overrated and that high-OBP could be just as valuable or more valuable.

Baseball right now is in a weird state, with excellent pre-arb players (especially pitchers) being heavily over-valued, and Beane just managed to get 2 and potentially 3 of them in exchange for one middling "proven" CF.  Last month he got 6(!) in exchange for one "proven" pitcher (that he got along with a potential perennial all-star in exchange for an older, expensive, and injured pitcher 3 years before!) and a throw-in.  

If this was a video game I would swear he was cheating...

by SleepyCA on Jan 3, 2008 5:51 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree with
this except for your characterization of Swisher. He's entering his prime in a reasonable contract coming off two .300 EQA seasons. That's not middling.

The stupid part of this deal is that the Sox aren't going to win with or without him anytime soon in that division. They should be doing what Beane is doing.

But in a vacuum, this is the sort of future for present talent swap that you'd likely see. DLR is a ways away without a third pitch, and Gio is a great psopect. They both are, and Swicher is a .300 EQA hitter with a good contract, career shape and projections, and defense. Plus, he'll take advantage of the Cell.

by plh903 on Jan 3, 2008 8:35 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cards got Clement!
The Cards have signed Matt Clement to a 1 year major league deal.  Anyone here know the amount of money involved?

by gostlouis on Jan 3, 2008 3:22 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Seriously?
Shoot me now.

Where does he even fit into the rotation?

Wainwright
Looper
Pineiro
Clement/Reyes/Mulder make up last 2 spots.

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 3, 2008 3:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know
Think Clement will be healthy enough to even make the team?

I don't know if Clement will even make the team.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 3, 2008 3:42 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ICcardfan
I'm with you and Hardcore, the way other teams have thrown out money and prospects this winter to get any pitcher that seems remotely capable of pitching over a 100 innings with an ERA of less than .6, makes me think that a lot of teams took a pass on him. He might fool everybody though; there was a time about 4 years back that I thought he would be a better pitcher than Zambrano, and from here on out he might be, as I believe that Zambrano might be over ripe for some arm trouble.

by ridgesee on Jan 3, 2008 4:07 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Competition
I think that this is more of a case of trying to go into the season with multiple people competing for fewer spots in the rotation. Seems like Tony tries to do this every Spring with anyone who may be taking their spot for granted. Last year it was Reyes, Wainwright, Looper, Thompson and Franklin all competing for the 3-5 spots.

Sometimes it has worked out, other times we end up with a Ponson in the rotation.

Throw enough against the wall somebody has to be able to pitch league average, right?

by bdief on Jan 3, 2008 3:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He doesn't
which is exactly the whole point of the exercise, having more pieces in play than spots to fill.  It increases competition in ST, should light a considerable fire under young Anthony's ass, and he's a legitimate middle-of-the-rotation starter when healthy.

I'm sure this deal is cheaper than the Mark Prior deal, and more incentive laden.  Clement has accomplished as much or more as a pro and did actually pitch in games in the last two years.  

In summary it's really not a bad gamble on the club's part, considering Jennings and Colon both would have cost more and are older.  It also falls in line with the VEB Gameplan that most of us seem to agree on:  Don't take on long-term, big-money contracts, take some gambles going into next year on guys who could be impact role players down the road (Clement, Barton, Brazelton), and save money for the 2009 free agent class.  

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 3, 2008 4:02 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What more of a fire
does Anthony need? He's been demoted/promoted..given the starting job, given postseason starts, etc and still has floundered.

If it's motivation he needs, I don't think signing Matt Clement is it.

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 3, 2008 4:10 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But at the same time
They did their best to play the competition card last year and it did squat.
On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 3, 2008 4:14 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cool...
Another pitcher with arm problems...  If it's low money, which I assume it is, I'm all for it (similar to the M. Prior dear?).  

Also, too many pitchers is never a bad thing.

by Beware the Molinas on Jan 3, 2008 3:44 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Radar gun prohibited....
I think this is the modern day equivalent to pitchers "getting an invite" to spring training with slightly more than a minor league contract.

All in all I like it better than Prior and its cheap, which seemed to be the reason some thought the Prior was attractive. Both ex-Cubs, obviously this one "hated" on us less.

Will he be the next Matty Mo, only without the big hook and a sub-par fastball?

Some guys just dont look good in red.

by cardschinmusic on Jan 4, 2008 4:19 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

link
http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=512797
I hate... so much about the things that you choose to be.

by erik on Jan 3, 2008 3:40 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Interesting to compare Swisher deal
to what we could fetch for Duncan. If there's a demand like this out there for a power hitter, I can't help but wondering what type of pitching we could bring in by shopping Dunc.
On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 3, 2008 3:47 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Duncan vs. Swisher
I don't know if it was a strickly power thing.  I think the biggest difference between the two is defense.  Swisher can play LF, CF, RF, and 1B.  I would say he palys all positions well enough that he does not hurt you.  I think Duncan's main value would be to an AL team looking for a full time DH who can fill in at LF or 1B for 10-15 games a year at most.  Swisher is just way more versitile.  The Sox need OF help in CF so Swisher can help out at that position.  Also if the Sox want to trade Kanerko before he is 10-5 guy they can do so and can play Swisher at 1B.  Swisher just gives the Sox a lot of flexibility.  

If you compare Swisher and Duncan's numbers they are similar.  Swisher has a bit more than 2 times the MLB AB's that Duncan has.

Swisher
.251 BA/.361 OBP/.464 SLG/.825 OPS

Duncan
.272 BA/.356 OBP/.528 SLG/.884 OPS

by ICbirdfan on Jan 3, 2008 3:55 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not to mention...
he is also a switch hitter and hits pretty well from both sides of the plate.
"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 3, 2008 4:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, right
and you can factor that into the argument. I'm just saying that if the A's can get that much for Swisher, we could surely get a pretty solid return for Duncan.
On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 3, 2008 4:08 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

maybe
but as is pointed out, the main difference between the two is defense.  Swisher can play four different positions as well as DH.  Duncan is a 1B or LF (and he's not good at either) so his main value is at DH.  There aren't a lot of teams in the AL with a DH that has an OPS lower than Duncan's (although Minnesota comes to mind).

Also, Swisher walks a lot more and strikes out less than Duncan.  He's also played 3 full seasons in the big leagues so teams basically know what to expect.  Duncan has a nice OPS, but really has only played about one full, healthy season at the big league level.

In my mind, if they're going to trade Duncan it has to be a nearly lopsided deal in the Cardinals favor, meaning we'd need to get a #2 starter or a young starting SS out of the deal.  Either that or three monster prospects.  Since he is the only good trading chip that they have, they can't make a move that doesn't benefit the ballclub in the immediate future.

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 3, 2008 4:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

at the trade deadline last year,
before duncan got hurt, the only starting DH's that had a better OPS than Duncan were David Ortiz and Jim Thome, and Thome only had 9 OPS points on him.

by SleepyCA on Jan 3, 2008 5:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That looks great...
Until you consider Duncan's awful split batting, he literally can't hit lefties, and I'm also assuming that you're only counting his stats through July when he posted a 1.064 OPS for the month.  Just off the top of my head I can name 8 of the 14 AL teams that wouldn't trade a good prospect or talented MLB pitcher or position player for a guy who can't hit lefties and is only a plus at the DH position.

Anaheim - Guerrero, Anderson, Juan Rivera
Boston - Papi
NYY - Posada and Giambi
Cleveland - Hafner
Detroit - Sheffield, Mags
Toronto - Thomas, Glaus
White Sox - Thome, Konerko headed there soon
Oakland - Jack Cust had a HUGE second half split and Barry Bonds may well end up here if not in jail.

As you can see, there's only two guys on this list that are similar to Duncan -- Cust and Hafner in that they aren't good anywhere defensively, are young, and can rake.  Both of them came up through the farm system.  Most DH spots are reserved for guys that have lost a step but can still hit (Thomas, Sheffield, Thome, Giambi, Posada).  Most of those guys are also solid hitters and aren't particularly streaky.  They also take a lot of walks, which Duncan doesn't do.  Duncan would have to rake at a plus .930 OPS clip for a whole season before a team is going to be ready to give a ton of talent to get him.  If he does that I'd rather keep him.

The only AL teams that might jump at him are Tampa and Seattle.  Tampa needs a lefty power bat and have some pitching to trade.  Do you honestly think with Johnny Gomes and their stud AAA 3B needing AB's that they would give up a James Shields for Duncan?  Seattle needs a DH that has some pop and has a lot of low A and AA pitching prospects.  The Cards would have to ask for at least two of them to make the deal work, and why wouldn't the M's just bring up Clement to get AB's at DH when he isn't spelling Johjima and learning to catch at the big league level?  We could send him to Texas, but they don't have pitching and the only guy we'd want would be Adrus and we'd be massively overpaying.  Even the White Sox WITHOUT Thome wouldn't have offered near that much for Duncan.

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 3, 2008 6:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

interesting evaluation
You're probably right about the market right now, and we need to keep him another year at least to further establish his value anyway.  If we move him it needs to be in a trade like this one where we get future franchise cornerstones.

Anyway my number-crunching (or rather, David Pinto's computer's number crunching ;) included all of his PA's through 31 July.  He had a .936 OPS in those 328 PA, and 78 PA against lefties.  When you combine that with his 2006 stats, he had a .946 OPS over 644 PA with 128 PA against lefties.  I think his current true talent level is well above .900 and if he can stay healthy, which he'd be able to do a lot better as a DH, he has a good chance of exploding one year for a 1.000+ season; the guy is only 26 and will probably get stronger the next 4-5 years.

That's pretty valuable production regardless of whether he plays in the field or not.  

by SleepyCA on Jan 3, 2008 10:30 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also,
didn't Swisher actually come up as a catcher.

by ridgesee on Jan 3, 2008 4:12 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Excuuuuuse me!
Shows how alert I am. I had him confused with Steve;
his father.

by ridgesee on Jan 3, 2008 8:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Heh
that's what I thought too when I saw your post. But I had to check to be sure because who knows.

by plh903 on Jan 3, 2008 8:42 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

White Sox connection....!
I think his Dad WAS originally drafted by the White Sox.
Some guys just dont look good in red.

by cardschinmusic on Jan 4, 2008 5:01 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Right, but
he never played for the White Sox.  Came up with the Flubs and followed the journeyman-catcher career path.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 4, 2008 9:47 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Clement
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/3D286A40262685F1862573C500705B3E ?OpenDocument

The deal also includes a club option for '09 also has a lot of incentives based on appearances

by Cardsfaninia on Jan 3, 2008 3:48 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Blanton
As MLB Trade Rumors suggests, this makes it more clear than ever that the A's are in rebuilding mode. This may be the time to try and pry Blanton away.
On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 3, 2008 3:51 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Matt Clement, Anthony Reyes
Skippy for Blanton, straight up!
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 3, 2008 3:56 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Shoulders
What two bad shoulders?  Clement & Reyes

What was the prognosis on Reyes? I know he was shut down last year with soreness. Any word about that?

by ICbirdfan on Jan 3, 2008 4:00 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Reyes
From what I've heard around the rumor mill he's fine and will be ready to go full-out at the start of spring training.
"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 3, 2008 4:06 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Clement
I love getting a guy like Clement.  At least it is someone with upside potential worth taking a risk on.  Much better than a Cal Eldred-type IMO.

by ChicagoPete on Jan 3, 2008 3:58 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Humm
I don't know shoulder problems scare me.  Obviously this deal really does not matter as it is going to be chump change anyway.

I would say the Padres got the best deal in the offseason if you go only on potential upside.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 3, 2008 4:01 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If costs $1 mil
or less, then I love it too. If he's $2 -$3 mil or more, than I don't love it at all.
On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 3, 2008 4:09 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Clement
If he is healthy I LOVE this deal if he is unhealthy then its crap......plain and simple....
Hey aet if he is healthy and it costs 2-3m then it is still a really good deal!(Just have to pray he is healthy.........)

by Calhoun on Jan 3, 2008 4:18 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry,
guess I'm just not confident that he's healthy.
On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 3, 2008 5:09 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

time machine
i would have loved this signing a few years ago.  shoulder injuries scare me.  assuming its a low base and affordable option for 2009, its a solid gamble.  still, it adds another question mark to a rotation that, imo, is full of question marks.

by dmb60614 on Jan 3, 2008 4:24 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

are the A's ever not in rebuilding mode?
at least where moving on older talent for younger talent is concerned.

as far as Clement; considering how weak the class was this offseason and what the current market is, i think hes a pretty good acquisition.  definitely couldve done worse.  

by thedawnraids on Jan 3, 2008 4:05 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ummm. . . . .
"This trade is interesting in that it seems people have generally burst the Billy Beane bubble for saber-metric genius. Sorry Azruavatar. It seems your darlings are finally getting their due."

What are you referring to 'cause I'm kinda in the dark on this one?

by azruavatar on Jan 3, 2008 4:39 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Statheads
I was referring to your appreciation for a player based on the newer lines of thinking. Your work here and at Future Redbirds has always seemed to guide towards a Swisher-type player as your prototype.  Someone with a good power and good OBP skills.
I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Jan 3, 2008 5:14 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Stat for a head
Don't think you need to be a Stathead to see good power and good OBP as positive things.

Also not really new thinking as Branch Rickey loved the OBP and SLG.

by lightbulb on Jan 3, 2008 5:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you're missing my point
Although Branch Rickey was a pioneer in his thinking, I believe it took baseball as an industry a LOOONNNGGG time to adapt.

I just picked out AZ because he is the most statistically knowlegeable person I know, and he really does appreciate these Swisher-type hitters.  He is the champion of the rate-statistic.  I was not belittling him in any way.  I just meant that he is an astute character who measures players first and foremost by OPS, rate stats, etc....  Swisher fits his mold well as a hitter.

I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Jan 3, 2008 5:38 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

..collegiate above avg. EQA,?
Swisher was drafted by the As out of college, was Beane confident he had the neccessary ingredients at that level to be a "classic Beane acquisition"?
Some guys just dont look good in red.

by cardschinmusic on Jan 4, 2008 5:09 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mo is on 1380
says he talked to Colon's agent, none of the other retread pitchers.

Seems content with the pitching staff as is but appears to have the attitude that if they add another pitcher to the team at all, they wouldn't mind it.

Sheesh.

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 3, 2008 4:44 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Per Mozeliak...
just heard him on with Bernie and Randy, and in response to questions about other pitchers; Leiber and Fogg are off the radar; in fact, they were never really prospects. Colon- they've talked to him, but he doesn't look like he's viable. Reyes is going into ST with a true shot at the rotation; Mulder may be back sometime in May. Still looking for a RH bat, too.
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jan 3, 2008 4:51 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Said his top priority on his wish list
is depth at the utility position.

Seriously?

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 3, 2008 4:58 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What!@#$??
The Card problem now is that they have tons of marginal roll players and few solid regulars.

That is crazy talk!

by JMedwick on Jan 3, 2008 5:06 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

beautiful
exactly what we need!
On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 3, 2008 5:11 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Eh.
This is a band-aid on a gun-shot wound.

And he looks like he has a set of nuts on his chin.

Matt "Chin-Nuts" Clement.

Nice ring to it.

"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Jan 3, 2008 5:06 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Cub Fans used to wear...
the "Chin Nuts" on there faces in the stands.  Please, I hope this does not become popular in Busch.

by TommyBruno on Jan 3, 2008 5:35 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if he dyed it
blue, he'd have a set of blue nuts on his chin.
"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Jan 3, 2008 9:25 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

blue balls
...reminds me of Jr. High
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Jan 4, 2008 1:25 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Clement
HAHA, "Eh" had me laughing my *ss off!  

Anyway, are the rumors true that the Cardinals will be hiring 4 team trainers this season? ;)  Between Clement, Carpenter and Mulder, it could be a long season.  

Came across a funny article on Jessica Alba, and it has a baseball ring to it! ha

http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/01/off-field-fleeces-gofer-hits-jackpot-lands-alba/

by ET90210 on Jan 3, 2008 5:12 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No kiddin'
Do we have to add Barry Weinberg (sp?)to our 25-man roster if he logs enough innings on the field?
I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Jan 3, 2008 5:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hell we have a utility team
almost this is bs we now have 3 sore armed pitchers a pitcher who was 2-13 and aw heck im done..

by cm1000 on Jan 3, 2008 5:14 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dave Dravecky
I know he broke his arm while pitching several years ago.  Has any pitcher actually had their arm FALL OFF while on the mound?  Would the team doctor say "He'll be okay, we are going to rehab it for a bit and see if he can return to the mound.  We currently have his arm attached with a generous amount of duct tape and an old car u-joint."?  

I could sooooo see that happening to one of our pitchers this year.  

I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Jan 3, 2008 5:19 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually'
the Giants did pitch the arm off a pitcher back in the seventies or early eighties. I can't recall his name, but his arm literly came apart on the mound and his arm was amputated a short time later. Strange thing was he had pitch a great game up until the incident happened. Again he was a pitcher of note and I believe he was 20 game winner one year. Just can't recall his name.

by ridgesee on Jan 3, 2008 8:33 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That was Dravecky
He had a cancerous tumor in his arm, had it removed, and returned to the bigs.  However, his arm, weakened no doubt from the cancer, gave out while he was pitching and his humorous bone broke.  After he retired his arm kept getting worse and eventually was amputated.

by k randolph on Jan 3, 2008 10:11 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

mlb rumors
said that the pirates have contacted 12 teams trying to dumo matt morris trade clement for him and let the pirates eat some of his salary.

by cm1000 on Jan 3, 2008 5:20 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

dump
dump not dumo @@##

by cm1000 on Jan 3, 2008 5:21 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Paletta factor re: Clement
Listening to Bernie interview Mo, my heart sank when MO stated that the team would not have made the signing without the glowing report on Clement's health that came from Dr. Paletta.  Is there another long tenured team physician in MLB with a worse track record?  Another of MO's points on Clement was that he threw some innings in the Arizona fall league topping out at 88.  They feel that with another several months of healing & rehab, he'll be stronger and throw in the 90s again.

I gotta believe they are holding on to Reyes until they see Clement pitch in ST.  If Clement checks out after a few starts, then Reyes is dealt.

BTW, I like the way MO interviews.  Calm, collected, but not a stuffed shirt.  Can roll with a joke and willing to give an honest answer.  I am so done with the TLR method of heavy smoke up one's anus.

by jjray on Jan 3, 2008 5:22 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It is a little known fact that
the word "Paletta" actually means a small shovel or pan with a handle.

It's a pooper-scooper, folks.

Just right for all the shit we give him, and all the bullshit reports he gives us.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=what+does+paletta+mean%3F

No disrespect, Doc.

"Dude, we're running out of stadium" - said on the way to our seats in Section 428.

by bukowski on Jan 3, 2008 5:28 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

x2
Awesome post JJ!  I'm behind you 100% on everything you said.  
I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Jan 3, 2008 5:29 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Please elaborate
on the so called "track record" that you speak of.

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

Oh, and please list, in detail, your experience in orthopedic surgery.

Thanks in advance.

The only thing between me and you is a thin layer of gabardine...

by silent_bob on Jan 3, 2008 5:32 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh Bob.
There is no doubt that Mr. Paletta is a very smart man who is a premier orthopedic surgeon.  You have to agree, however, that we have had a horrible run of luck regarding misdiagnoses, busted rehab assignments, and surgeries that took two tries.  I am referring to Carpenter, Mulder, and Rolen specifically.

Is all that Dr. Paletta's fault?  Probably not.  However, we are red-blooded Americans, and we HAVE to have our scapegoat.  These injuries and complications occurred under his watch, therefore in true American fashion, we are going to pin the blame on him.

I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Jan 3, 2008 5:42 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

People
It's surgery.  It is not something that automatically makes you healthy enough to pitch or play MLB baseball.

I think people forget how fragile the human body is.  

by ICbirdfan on Jan 3, 2008 5:50 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

don't take it personal bob
Am I a major league pitcher?  No but I post opinions on their value ad nauseum.  Do you begrudge my right to do so?  Have I previously been president of the United States?  Again, negatory but I feel free to express my opinion upon the current president's competence.  Why?  This is America and in America every guy on the street corner gets his say regardless of qualifications.  

Why do you think Scott Rolen not only refused to have his last surgery performed by Paletta but went so far as to refuse the Cardinals permission to have Paletta personally observe the operation?  Rolen trusts Paletta's competence and judgement as far as he can throw him (and probably not that far).  Paletta whiffed on Rolen diagnosis twice.  Mulder once.  Carpenter once.  And that's just recent history.  Feel free to defend the man. I'm not sure why you feel the urge but, hey, it's America.

by jjray on Jan 3, 2008 9:06 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like this signing
Paletta's not the only one suggesting he's healthy. He's been rehabbing for 14 months and pitched in instructional leagues during the offseason. The reports I've read say his velocity is fine, he's working all his pitches, but that his control isn't back yet.

As much as it looks like we're turning back the clock to 2004, when Izturis was a pre-injury gold glover, LaRue was a good catcher and batter, and pre-injury Clement struck out over a batter per inning—I'm most confident that Clement will look closest to form.

Surprisingly, no. I'm free, I'm unfettered.

by liam on Jan 3, 2008 6:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

calm and posturing?
hope mo's comments on the need for a utility infielder were posturing for the opposition.  as many have noted, we have more serious needs that require attention and he surely knows that.  he may just be tired of chasing folks and wants to see if anyone comes after any of our players.  i'm sure the reyes and rolen bashing hurts our ability to deal them and he needs to get the organization to keep their criticisms of current players private.  hope so anyway.

by sportsman on Jan 3, 2008 5:38 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe we don't have more serious needs
The outfield is set. With Rasmus in the wings.

1B is fine.

SS has Ryan/Izturis

2B is Kennedy/Hoff/Izturis

3B is Rolen

CA is Molina backed by Larue with Anderson in the wings.

The Bullpen is set.

Wainright, Piniero & Looper are set. With Carp and Mulder in the wings(maybe Garcia, Boggs or Walters as well).

The starting spots are to be two of Clement, Reyes, Wellmeyer & Thompson.

I don't think we need a utility infielder with our slew of young 3rd basemen. I like this team and want to give them a chance. I'm more excited for this year than I have been in a long while.

"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jan 3, 2008 10:09 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

BOOOOO
clement?

seriously?

bad MO! bad!

please, no more trades with billy boy. he's already had his way with the Cards on the Mulder deal, and he just violated the white sox with the swish deal. i'd hate to think what MO would give up if billy called him & told him Blanton could be had, if the price is right.

when it comes to billy boy MO, the price is ALWAYS wrong.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jan 3, 2008 6:48 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What's he gonna say?
At this point, our situation is:

Full OF - Six solid players competing for five spots:

IF - Set at 3B, 1B, C

IF - Tentatively set at SS and 2B....

SP - Set

RP - Set

So again, he can't publicly say we need anything.  Hopefully he is, however looking for ways to upgrade.  Mark Ellis anyone?  I am sure the As would unload him - maybe a package of Hoff and Reyes?

by Lawless on Jan 3, 2008 6:58 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Retraction
Let me back up on that last statement.  I'll keep Hoff and Reyes.  Now if Ellis could be had for a middling 10-20 type prospect or two, that might be more like it.  Always loved the guys D...

by Lawless on Jan 3, 2008 7:03 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry I didn't read far enough...
apparently I said something similar a few posts up. But I don't think we need to upgrade till we see what we have and maybe build some value in Rolen & Reyes...
"Why does he keep saying that?"

by Red Blazer on Jan 3, 2008 10:10 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ROSTER MATRIX PLEASE
If you be so kind.

Sorry to yell.

I had my iPod on.

by Harknights on Jan 3, 2008 7:39 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Clement Money
Per mlbtraderumors

"Clement gets a $1.25MM base with another $5.25MM in incentives for '08.  The '09 option is for $8.75MM, an amount that can increase based on innings pitched.  Seems a low-risk deal for the Cards."

I'm ok with this deal.  If he isn't healthy just don't start him, 1.25m is chump change to a MLB club.  

I'd still like to see one more pitcher.  Towers, Weaver, and Colon would be on my shortlist.

"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Jan 3, 2008 7:39 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow
That's great. I was expecting something closer to 3M plus incentives.
Surprisingly, no. I'm free, I'm unfettered.

by liam on Jan 3, 2008 8:25 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Per ESPN(AP)
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3179942
1.25 Base, .25 buyout for 1.5 guarenteed
full bonus of 5.25 reached at 200 innings.

Option of 8.75 that increases to 9m and a .5 buyout if he reachs 160 innings, 9.5 and 1 if 180 and 10 and 1.5 at 200 and 11 and 2 if he finishes in top 5 of CY voting.

So if Clement pitches 200 innings this becomes 6.5 in 08 + 10/1.5 in 09.  I am very happy with that since they won't let him pitch 160 if he isn't worth the extra bonus/buyout.

by StLHugo on Jan 3, 2008 8:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good
That price is encouraging.
On with the (good) youth movement!

by aet15 on Jan 3, 2008 9:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Towers
would be okay I dont think they will pay for weaver>One healthy starter would be nice... either by trade of fa signing

by cm1000 on Jan 3, 2008 7:47 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Towers
Rumor has it that he is close to a deal with the Rockies. Coincidence??? I think not.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Jan 3, 2008 11:24 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Arm amputated
The pitcher was Dave Dravecky, except it was cancer, not overuse that caused it.

by Red in Chicago on Jan 3, 2008 8:56 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for that link,
I kept saying to myself it was Dave Draveck. I always got Dave Draveck and Doug Drabeck of the Pirates mixed up and when the name came up I really thought of Drabeck.  But anyway, Draveck should not have been medically cleared to pitch, yet he was and it cost him his right arm. If I remember right,it was a Sunday game in which he had pitched seven or eight strong innings, and then just collapsed to the ground holding his arm in pain. I also believe MLB also gave him a large settlement also, but not sure. You are right, it was not overuse but definitely was misuse.

by ridgesee on Jan 3, 2008 9:54 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Excuse me,
LEFT ARM (I'm gonna quit for the night)

by ridgesee on Jan 3, 2008 9:56 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

clement
at first thought on this signing, i wanted to know the dollars involved; when i saw the parameters (1.25m base, up to 5.25m in incentives, with a max salary of 11m in '09, if he finishes top 5 in the cy young) i felt much better about it

sure its a gamble, that shoulder may never be right again; worse yet in my mind, he may be the next kip wells, and do nothing with pretty good stuff

i think mo picked a good candidate from the trash heap/hurt pile; one positive for clement: he had surgery in sept '06 (same as mulder, pedro) and he didnt come back at all, not because he totally could not, but boston had absolutely no need to use him down the stretch, so he had an extra 6+ months of rehab

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Jan 4, 2008 12:47 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bravo
I agree completely I was skeptical at first but having learned the dollars involved i`m very happy with this signing...
There is nothing to lose if he flops he`s gone at the end of the season or he might not make the team in ST.....

by Calhoun on Jan 4, 2008 1:19 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I really don't get all the frustration
w/ the Clement signing.  It's a million and a half bucks for 1 year.  If he's good, the team has an option on the 2nd.  If he's not, he moves on his way.  Will Clement pitch us into the WS this year?  No, but we weren't going anyway.  It does give us a leg up on filling a spot in the rotation in '09 if we're so inclined.

If this fails, it's a million and a half bucks for 1 year!  So what?  This is hardly a 4 year, $40 million mistake for Kyle Lohse or somebody equally bad.  I'd have preferred Lieber, even at $4-5 million but this is a good signing, by every indication.  I suppose you could argue that it's bad if you feel that it blocks Reyes but Reyes has had chances and will likely be traded anyway.

by chuckb on Jan 4, 2008 7:50 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Completely Agree
My response to any fan frustrated with the Clement deal is "why not?"  We only really pay him if he performs well.  We aren't committing lots of money, and we aren't tying up roster space long term.  So . . . why not?

by Ray Lankford on Jan 4, 2008 9:42 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

so who's gone?
adding clement, and the talk of resigning miles, means 2 more have to be put off the 40-man roster.  anyone know who's going to be tapped?

by sportsman on Jan 4, 2008 10:53 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Weirdo
I must be one because this is the guy I wanted this whole offseason for the Cards to sign. If he is healthy enough to throw in the low 90's, he is a perfect candidate for a Duncan rehab project. (High GB rates, heavy sinker, he can even miss bats.) I think most of us forgot how good this guy was before his injury. (Which he has had something like 18 months to recover from.) Very cheap and very high upside...and a better chance of recovery than Mulder IMO.

I would prefer Clement(who was good when healthy) to Towers...who has been awful when healthy during most of his career.

Of course, I also thought an IzturisRyan combo is an upgrade over Eckstein because the defense out-weighs the offense at SS.

I would love for the Cards to have done more this offseason, but there weren't many FA's that I would have wanted at the prices they went for and most of trades included the types of prospects that the Cards don't have in their system.

I would have explored what we could get for Reyes, Duncan or Ankiel, but I am sure Moz did and likely didn't like what he was offered.

Back in October I predicted several things that have panned out. (Piniero, Clement, Izturis, Izzy, Springer, Edmonds) Didn't predict Barton and predicted a trade of Rolen to the Angels (for SantanaAybar or Rodriquez) which didn't happen and a trade of Reyes for an outfield prospect. (of about Barton's calibur...so we got one and kept Reyes)

I think Moz is still looking for 2 things via trade. (1. Durable starting pitcher - 3 or 4 type guy) (2. An upgrade in the infield...but this will be difficult to find.) He is likely still looking for homes for Reyes and Rolen, but will have to get some value back.

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Jan 4, 2008 11:09 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tracy Ringlosby
I know he's over in Colorado, but he's a Hall of Fame writer.  Cool Q&A I came across with him:

http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/04/q-a-tracy-ringolsby-of-the-rocky-mountain-news/

by ET90210 on Jan 4, 2008 11:27 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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