tourney time
one final piece of news regarding the rolen trade. at the end of my knee-jerk analysis when the news broke on saturday, i remarked off-handedly that while i liked the trade, i'd rather see the cards get back a young player like andy laroche. that prompted an e-mail from a knowledgeable source, who told me the cards did look into a rolen-for-laroche deal (as reported here two months ago by occasional VEB diarist pzonehitter). the dodgers, however, wouldn't offer laroche unless the cards would also agree to take juan pierre --- whose contract is one of the worst in baseball, many times worse than scott rolen's. the dodgers, not unreasonably, never budged off that position --- if they were gonna taken on our crappy contract, we'd have to take on theirs. the cards wisely declined.
dan szymbroski posted the ZIPS projections for rolen and glaus, indexed to their new ballparks:
| AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | AVG | OBP | SLG | OPS+ | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| rolen | 380 | 58 | 93 | 24 | 1 | 10 | 57 | 38 | .245 | .319 | .392 | 84 |
| glaus | 469 | 71 | 120 | 22 | 0 | 24 | 78 | 77 | .256 | .362 | .456 | 112 |
* * * * * * * * *
a friend of mine who's doing a research project about sabermetrics vaguely recalls reading a statement on the subject by tony la russa a few years ago. in answer to an interviewer's question, la russa said --- more or less --- that stats guys struck him as arrogant because they try to tell him something that he has seen with his own eyes isn't true. he said he'd rather have a video machine than a stats guy. this friend knows he read the interview online but now can't track it down; does it ring a bell for anyone? i already asked if the quote came from "3 Nights in August" --- it doesn't, my friend has already checked. if you recognize this quote and know where it can be found, please advise.Update [2008-1-15 9:13:31 by lboros]: well, that was easy. a VEBber named john immediately e-mailed a link to the quote, which reads:
"It's been a little irritating, because there's a certain arrogance with that whole group."
* * * * * * * * *
late last winter i launched an all-time cardinals simulation tournament. it was a good idea that generated a lot of interest, but it failed in the execution because i got a late start and was using an archaic simulation program; the thing never got out of the first round. last month Zubin wrote me with a different concept for a tournament. with a better simulation program and an earlier start, i think (fingers crossed) we can manage to get all the way through it.this concept surfaced briefly last year --- a tournament of cardinal championship teams. in the modern era st louis has produced 17 pennant winners; that's a four-round tournament (with a play-in game tacked on at the beginning). Zubin, who is a student of 19th-century baseball, proposed expanding the field to include the championship teams of the 1880s, when the cardinals --- then known as the browns, and led by player-manager charlie comiskey (the future white sox owner) --- took four consecutive pennants in the american association. he also advocated the inclusion of the la russa era's division-winning teams --- the 1996, 2000, 2002, and 2005 clubs, each of which won a playoff series but fell short of a pennant.
the resulting field comprises 25 teams --- every club in franchise history that won a championship, pennant, or division title. here they are:
| world champs |
pennant winners |
division winners |
|---|---|---|
| 1886: 93-46, .669 | 1885: 79-33, .705 | 1996: 88-74, .543 |
| 1926: 89-65, .578 | 1887: 95-40, .704 | 2000: 95-67, .586 |
| 1931: 101-53, .656 | 1888: 95-40, .704 | 2002: 97-65, .599 |
| 1934: 95-58, .621 | 1928: 95-59, .617 | 2005: 100-62, .617 |
| 1942: 106-48, .688 | 1930: 92-62, .597 | |
| 1944: 105-49, .682 | 1943: 105-49, .682 | |
| 1946: 98-58, .628 | 1968: 92-62, .597 | |
| 1964: 93-69, .574 | 1985: 101-61, .623 | |
| 1967: 101-60, .627 | 1987: 95-67, .586 | |
| 1982: 92-70, .568 | 2004: 105-57, .648 | |
| 2006: 83-78, .516 |
the 2001 team was omitted because a) technically it finished 2d, b) it didn't win a playoff series, and c) enough already with the 00s teams; they're already amply represented.
how to cram these 25 teams into a 16-team bracket? it wasn't easy, but Zubin devised a solution that's fair and surprisingly elegant. take a look:

the games will be simulated via WhatIf Sports' Sim Matchup program. each matchup will consist of a best-of-7 series. Zubin and i are dividing up the sims; our managerial decisions will be limited to a) setting the pitching pairings, and b) setting the lineups; the simulator will handle all the in-game maneuvers. we'll be referring to each team's actual postseason box scores to ensure realistic lineups, rotation decisions, etc etc.
we're gonna start posting the results on friday, and add new results each day. the four first-round series will be played concurrently --- think the nlds / alds, with four series going on simultaneously. friday's schedule will include Game 1 of two first-round series; on saturday we'll put up the Game 2 results from those series, along with the Game 1s from the other two first-round matchups. we'll go forward like that, game by game and round by round, with new results every afternoon; the championship series should take place about halfway through spring training.
if anybody's interested in lending a hand with the write-ups, send me an e-mail (vivaelbirdos AT yahoo DOT com). Cardinal70 has posted a tournament tracker; he's also accepting ballots from anybody who's interested in filling out a bracket and submitting picks before the tournament starts.
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150
comments
Comments
Salary
by jfs on Jan 15, 2008 8:55 AM EST 0 recs
yes, normalized salary
by lboros on
Jan 15, 2008 9:02 AM EST
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This gives me yet another chance to
sigh
I miss those years. I enjoyed them more than 2006.
by azruavatar on Jan 15, 2008 9:01 AM EST 0 recs
I like to think
As an aside, I have a rarely worn Scott Rolen home jersey available for cheap...
by player2bnamedl8r on
Jan 15, 2008 10:04 AM EST
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What about an Edmonds Jersey?
by effin fisk on
Jan 15, 2008 1:16 PM EST
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I've only worn my Edmonds jersey
by saladdays on
Jan 15, 2008 2:06 PM EST
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At the time I got the Rolen jersey
Based upon their exits from the Cardinals, aside from the fact that Jimmy is my favorite recent Cardinals player...I'd much rather have the Edmonds and I'd definitely hang onto it.
by player2bnamedl8r on
Jan 15, 2008 4:21 PM EST
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Can I ask how much you paid for
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Jan 15, 2008 3:45 PM EST
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I get a new jersey
I may have to go with a retired one this year. I've been meaning to get a Kile jersey for some time now.
by Alxfritz on
Jan 15, 2008 3:58 PM EST
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If you've got $300 to drop
by Hardcore Legend on
Jan 15, 2008 4:02 PM EST
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Wow, how many game tickets
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Jan 15, 2008 4:05 PM EST
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two scoreboard tickets
by rocKStark5 on
Jan 15, 2008 5:08 PM EST
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Well, with the jersey
by Hardcore Legend on
Jan 15, 2008 9:41 PM EST
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I like their Ozzie
by Alxfritz on
Jan 15, 2008 4:11 PM EST
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I'm partial
by plh903 on
Jan 15, 2008 5:15 PM EST
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Oh, let's see...
It wasn't the full player's replica jersey with the small number on the front of the uniform.
I actually wanted an Edmonds jersey, but the team store in Busch II didn't have any.
by player2bnamedl8r on
Jan 15, 2008 4:19 PM EST
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Mulder game
by Choix003 on
Jan 15, 2008 12:05 PM EST
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RE: LaRussa and Stats Guys
The only real discussion of number-crunchers in general in "3 Nights" came in a section discussing overall strategy. Bissinger wrote something like this: LaRussa understood the approach that the A's used in getting guys who get on base, and generally agreed with it. However, in RBI situations he felt the "table was already set" and therefore wanted his hitters to be a little more aggressive. That was about it in the whole book, which focused more on TLR's life and his in-game decision making process.
by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 15, 2008 9:11 AM EST 0 recs
The article with the quote is from 2005
by sdrone on
Jan 15, 2008 9:49 AM EST
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But
"The 'Moneyball' kind of stuff has its place, but so does the human," La Russa said by telephone from Pittsburgh. "Really, the combination is the answer."
by cardsgirl95 on
Jan 15, 2008 10:01 AM EST
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good point
Tony was always known as a stat guy for the longest time. Heck, many fans get mad at him for worrying too much about stats, matchups, numbers, etc. Yet the "other" crowd says he is anti-stats. Kinda weird.
by beanocook on
Jan 15, 2008 10:12 AM EST
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MGL has said before
by azruavatar on
Jan 15, 2008 11:16 AM EST
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Many
by beanocook on
Jan 15, 2008 11:25 AM EST
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no, he's not dumb
ron shandler tells much the same tale as MGL.
by lboros on
Jan 15, 2008 11:31 AM EST
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TLR/Knight/Belichick
Take it for what it's worth. Yes they all have been wrong but they have been right a lot of times doing what works for them.
I will leave it at that.
by ICbirdfan on
Jan 15, 2008 11:38 AM EST
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understood that
My point--we all kind of think our way is the way--and we are tough to change. My main point on this is that I don't think Tony is anti-stats, etc.
He was one of the very first guys to use stats in the dugout, he has all the numbers, most of his decisions are based in statistical data. Does he embrace the whole "sabermetric movement"? Maybe not. But it doesnt mean he doesn't appreciate them in context.
by beanocook on
Jan 15, 2008 12:16 PM EST
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The Catch:
by redbirdnation8206 on
Jan 15, 2008 12:17 PM EST
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stats
It is all about figuring out what the best stats are and using those stats.
by ICbirdfan on
Jan 15, 2008 1:18 PM EST
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you should learn more about the stats
you may think they're worthless, but they're worth a lot to big-league decisionmakers. the Cardinals paid MGL a pretty penny a few years back for the proprietary rights to UZR. and most big-league teams are paying their number-crunchers fistfuls more to produce even more reliable, more meaningful fielding statistics.
by lboros on
Jan 15, 2008 1:39 PM EST
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Here is my take
I think some people on this board however use stats a bit too much at times, because many have said much better than myself stats don't tell you everything.
It think a balance is needed, but I get the idea you get some number crunches who think they are pretty smart and could throw together a fantasy league team but don't know everything about the game of baseball.
But I do think the stats are fun to go through.
by ICbirdfan on
Jan 15, 2008 2:23 PM EST
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direct observation is essential
but the eyes often mislead. we all have our blind spots and our biases, and statistics --- if used properly --- can correct those flaws in our vision.
it's pretty clear that a blend of stats and direct scouting is gonna produce better results than either a pure-stats or pure-scouting approach. even billy beane would acknowledge that --- he played the game, after all, and he knows that the game is played by real people and not by strat-o-matic cards. but the stats do have meaning, if you know how to use them and you use them in balance.
by lboros on
Jan 15, 2008 2:49 PM EST
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stats
by dmb60614 on
Jan 15, 2008 3:42 PM EST
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understood
It gets frustrating at times. They drop ISO, VORP, UZR, etc. and if people dont "get it" then obviously they are uneducated dumbasses. Im not saying you are this way---its just a general feel I get from the sabermetric community...like they are the only ones that "get it" and the rest of us aren't quite as enlightened. Because many of them couldn't play the game they are involved in another way.
It gets frustrating. It's nice to have a healthy balance where BOTH groups respect each other and what they briing--right now, Im not sure that's the case and both groups are to blame.
It's like guys who drop degrees or Ivy School references all the time. That gets played out. Just because he's a 30-something cat from Yale doesn't mean much to me.
Sorry to rant--just my thoughts on the issue. Do I think Tony could be more open to new things? Yes. But I think he actually puts more of it to use than people give him credit for.
by beanocook on
Jan 15, 2008 2:32 PM EST
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you make fair points
i would argue that the disrespect goes both ways --- there is definitely a crowd that says "you never played the game, so you don't know shit" --- but i agree that in an ideal world, both groups would learn from one another.
i think jeff luhnow pretty well embodies that point of balance you're describing. obviously he values stats and trusts them, but from various sources i know that he does not discount a scout's "gut feeling" in the cards' draft war room --- on the contrary, he trusts that a lot, which helps explain why they drafted kozma and (to a lesser extent) rasmus, as well as later-round gems such as jaime garcia and tyler henley. every time i've exchanged e-mail with him, he goes to great lengths to address players on a qualitiative as well as quantitative basis.
by lboros on
Jan 15, 2008 2:44 PM EST
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awesome
Time will tell on him obviously but I really like his approach...heck, I've been impressed with Mozeliak so far as well.
by beanocook on
Jan 15, 2008 2:49 PM EST
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Just sayin'
You're speaking truth, though. Sabermetrics would probably be further along if Bill James and the like spent more effort winning his intended audience instead of attacking it.
Tom Tango seems like a class act, though. And Dave Studeman most certainly is, from the very limited contact I've had with him. Not all statsmen are condescending assholes, but too many aspire to be.
Josh, at the now-sadly-defunct Birdwatch, nailed this sentiment well in his review of 3 Nights in August:
In the case of Moneyball there was a built in audience of new school baseball fans whose self image (as baseball fans) was built around being more informed and smarter than the average fan and troglodyte baseball executive. Moneyball was a hit with this audience. When somebody writes a book that says people who think like you are brilliant and avante [sic] guard and the wave of the future, it's hard not to agree with the guy.
by liam on
Jan 15, 2008 3:03 PM EST
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Three months ago
by ridgesee on
Jan 15, 2008 2:56 PM EST
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fielding percentage....
by jdub176 on
Jan 15, 2008 1:45 PM EST
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oops
by jdub176 on
Jan 15, 2008 1:50 PM EST
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Here is what I said
- Watching- the best method of all
- Fielding %- tells a lot just because you can tell if the guy can at least catch and throw the ball consistently.
by ICbirdfan on
Jan 15, 2008 2:20 PM EST
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watching fielding in particular
People like "well I believe my eyes" because that statement makes whatever babble they spout out seem irrefutable. It makes them feel safe and unchallenged.
by rocKStark5 on
Jan 15, 2008 5:21 PM EST
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I don't agree
by ICbirdfan on
Jan 15, 2008 6:01 PM EST
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You keep using the term "watching"
Fans, on the other hand, often say "well I've seen so-and-so play defense and he's one of the best in the game." Then, when the stats say otherwise, that person says something like "stats are useless" or "overused" or "can't replace the human eye." "I don't care what the stats say, he's great!" or whatever.
Unfortunately, when fans say that they've "seen" someone and offer some vantage point that runs contrary to what the stats say, it's based on a couple of incidents that often aren't representative of the entire body of work. Anecdotal evidence, b/c we only really "see" part of what we say we saw or only remember portions of it, just isn't that valuable. When scouts "see" something, it's usually incredibly worthwhile. When fans say they "saw" something, it usually isn't.
Too often we, as fans, make snap judgements about players or their abilities based on the fact that we "saw" them a couple of times. Stats, therefore, are usually much better than fans' anecdotal evidence. Scouts, on the other hand, are a whole different ball of yarn. Scouts saw big homer potential in Chris Duncan even when the stats weren't there. Eventually, the stats were able to reflect his ability to hit homers.
I'm not questioning you, in particular, here. Likely you see things as a former player that most fans don't see. But, if so, you're the exception, not the rule. Therefore, if average fan A says "I saw X" and the stats say something contrary, I'll go w/ the stats. Scouts, however, are an entirely different story.
by houstoncardinal on
Jan 15, 2008 6:17 PM EST
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I saw...
You were saying?
by Merry CRasmus on
Jan 15, 2008 9:27 PM EST
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For the record
by jdub176 on
Jan 16, 2008 1:04 AM EST
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Fielding Percentage
I also tend to not trust my eyes when trying to actually figure out if a guy is a good fielder b/c if they make a few spectacular plays that might throw off your perspective. Also, there are just so many things that you can't see/miss by watching (positioning and jump aren't visible unless you're watching that player the entire game and nothing else) that its just not the best way to get a total package of a guy's defensive skills.
I'm not saying that Dewan's system, RF, UZR, OOZ, etc. are perfect systems...just that they're not useless either.
by redbirdnation8206 on
Jan 15, 2008 2:26 PM EST
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it's all in context
However I feel if you watch a player you can pick up on things. I don't get fooled by great plays. I can watch a guy and tell his arm strenght, the way he travels to the ball in a controled manner, weather his hands are soft, and how his feet look. I just was saying I don't need stats to look at that. I will go watch a highly touted HS kid and I can tell if his IF skills project or not.
by ICbirdfan on
Jan 15, 2008 2:51 PM EST
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and sometimes
For fielding especially, where at most you'll see a player make 4-5 plays a game, the eyes are a terrible evaluation tool.
by SleepyCA on
Jan 15, 2008 3:04 PM EST
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"Eyes are a terrible evaluation tool"
by liam on
Jan 15, 2008 3:12 PM EST
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And this,
by Jhusk on
Jan 15, 2008 3:42 PM EST
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It would be more accurate to say that eyes are
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Jan 15, 2008 3:54 PM EST
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mdredbirdfreak
by ridgesee on
Jan 15, 2008 4:48 PM EST
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To Those Who Vote For Gold Gloves
-Derrek Lee
by flynn on
Jan 15, 2008 5:23 PM EST
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Whoever
I am a Cardinal fan who could care less about the perception of my team award wise. It does not make me more money, or really change my life one bit. I guess I am just a lot different than others who have some sort of heart attack if Jadi or Albert lose out on some award that is has zero affect on a fans life.
by ICbirdfan on
Jan 15, 2008 6:07 PM EST
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isn't that part of being a fan?
by baw on
Jan 16, 2008 12:52 AM EST
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heh
by jdub176 on
Jan 16, 2008 2:49 AM EST
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Just an observation
by OKCardsfan on
Jan 15, 2008 3:53 PM EST
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as discussed yesterday
In this case, it's not the fielding stats that are "bad", it's the eyes of one (or both) of the guys in the stands in Toronto...
This discussion does illustrate one point that hasn't been made about fielding stats- we can't trust them 100% because they are meta-stats. They aren't like the Chadwick Batting Average which is based off of something concrete (hits per at bat). With the exception of fpct, which should be dismissed (and is still subject to the whims of the official scorer for defining "errors"), fielding skill goes through a filter based on someone's opinions, biases, and event recording skill with the accompanying opportunities for human error even before the stat programs do their number crunching.
by SleepyCA on
Jan 15, 2008 5:37 PM EST
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Human Element
by OKCardsfan on
Jan 15, 2008 6:39 PM EST
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MGL
by ICbirdfan on
Jan 15, 2008 12:48 PM EST
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who
by beanocook on
Jan 15, 2008 2:28 PM EST
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Mitchel Lichtman
by azruavatar on

