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BREAKING: Rolen for Glaus Swap Pending Physical

Per Rosenthal:

Scott Rolen is on the verge of escaping St. Louis manager Tony La Russa. Troy Glaus is on the verge of escaping the artificial turf in Toronto.

The Cardinals and Blue Jays are closing in on an exchange of their third basemen, major-league sources say, but both former All-Stars must pass physicals before a deal is completed.

Those physicals are no small issue since Rolen is coming off surgery on his right shoulder and Glaus surgery on his left foot.

While both players have agreed to waive their no-trade clauses, the differences in their contracts also might need to be resolved, most likely through a cash payment from the Cardinals to the Blue Jays.

Update [2008-1-12 14:31:1 by lboros]: well, here's another leg for the la-russa-runs-the-club theory to stand on . . . . glaus is clearly a better hitter than rolen at this point; he has outhomered and out-rbi'd rolen in each of the last 3 seasons, outslugged and out-OBP'd him in 2 of the last 3:
ab hr rbi avg obp slg
glaus 07 385 20 62 .262 .366 .473
rolen 07 392 8 58 .265 .331 .398
glaus 06 540 38 104 .252 .355 .513
rolen 06 521 22 95 .296 .369 .518
glaus 05 538 37 97 .258 .363 .522
rolen 05 196 5 28 .235 .323 .383

he'd give the cardinals a true 30-hr bat (something rolen hasn't been since 2004), plus he's younger than rolen and is on a shorter contract, which is a good thing when you're discussing over-30 players with health issues.

UZR does not like glaus's glove, but all the other systems (PMR, enhanced ZR, dewan's +/-) have him as an above-average defender --- not quite as good as rolen, but within 5 runs a year or so. not sure why the blue jays would want to make this deal --- maybe glaus' foot problems are serious enough that they expect a precipitous decline --- but it looks like an advantageous move for the cards on every front. even if rolen and la russa were bosom buddies, this would be a good trade.

although i'd rather get back a young player like adam laroche . . . . . .

Update [2008-1-12 14:54:3 by lboros]: i just took a look at glaus's game log from last year. he abruptly stopped hitting in mid-july ---- went .220 / .333 / .384 over his last 44 games and then had season-ending surgery. maybe that's why the blue jays are ready to dump him.

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Are you kidding me?
We're swapping a chronically injured, 30+ third baseman for another chronically injured, 30+ third baseman...and throwing in cash? Aside from the fact that Glaus is getting one fewer guaranteed year, this trade completely fails to give the Cards more money, prospects or a fresh look.

I feel sick.

The Falcoholic
The SBNation's Atlanta Falcons Blog

by Dave the Falconer on Jan 12, 2008 1:04 PM EST   0 recs

I agree
I'm not feeling to good either.

by ridgesee on Jan 12, 2008 1:07 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Am I the only one who likes the deal?
Rolen isn't guaranteed to ever rebound to his old form, and he can't get along with LaRussa. We're sacrificing defense but getting a guy who can hit 40HR and 100RBIs with a good OBP. I'm OK with it.

by matt reeder on Jan 12, 2008 1:12 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Not just you
I like it as well, for reasons mentioned below.

by roebirds on Jan 12, 2008 1:14 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

no, i like it actually
i for one am so sick of this stupid soap opera, and glaus is a good bat. i'm not so excited about his ped issues, but we need a power bat and i don't think rolen is it anymore
I hate... so much about the things that you choose to be.

by erik on Jan 12, 2008 1:26 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Blearghle
I'm just so staunchly in the "let's rebuild" camp that I can't help but be aghast that we're picking up another aging, injured slugger. Glaus probably is a better bet to have a healthy, productive season. I just can't make myself believe that this is what the Cardinals needed to get back for Rolen.
The Falcoholic
The SBNation's Atlanta Falcons Blog

by Dave the Falconer on Jan 12, 2008 1:33 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

well, glaus is
on contact for a year, then he can opt out. then we can sign someone younger, or freese or craig could surprise us and be ready. i don't think it's terrible, i don't really like it. i'm sick of the fact that we have to structure the team around tlr. but truth be told, rolen is being a baby. he won't even show his face to winter warm up, which is about the fans. the guy has got himself traded off of two teams now.

i love the way he plays, but he seems like his skin is about as thick as as a slice of carl buddig pastrami.

I hate... so much about the things that you choose to be.

by erik on Jan 12, 2008 1:49 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

preview button
i said i like, and i don't

i like it because the soap opera is over and pujols has some protection. i personally think rolen isn't going to ever become the hitter he was. and i like it because we don't feel like we're stuck w/him anymore.

what i don't like is how this whole thing shook out, and i'm not crazy about glaus and the whole peds thing.

hey, maybe they'll throw burnett it...now if you excuse me i'll be on the moon, eating spare ribs.

I hate... so much about the things that you choose to be.

by erik on Jan 12, 2008 1:54 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Rolen needed to go
I just wanted to get some Future Redbirds cannon fodder in return for him. If Glaus is effective, I'll be pretty happy. I'd just be a lot happier if I thought he was going to be effective on a team that was going to win more than 80 games.
The Falcoholic
The SBNation's Atlanta Falcons Blog

by Dave the Falconer on Jan 12, 2008 1:54 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Glaus may be aging, but
he's younger than Rolen, which people tend to forget.

My initial reaction to this was neutral to negative, but the more I think about it, the less negative I am.  There are three key points.  First, going forward, Glaus is more likely to be a plus than Rolen, even though Rolen was the better player up until now.  That's true simply on health and age grounds, even if you ignore the chip on Rolen's shoulder and concentrate on the damage in the shoulder.  Second, whether he's got the better future or not, TLR so thoroughly poisoned the well with that press conference that I'm surprised that it's even possible to talk about this trade straight up, let alone anything better.  Third, it's not like the minors contain anything likely to represent a rebuilding-oriented alternative any time soon.  I don't expect Craig to be able to stick at 3B owing to his brutal defense, any projection of Freese as better than just adequate must be considered wildly optimistic, and while I've heard good things about Arnoldi Cruz, he's a long way away.

So maybe I'm "neutral to positive" rather than "neutral to negative," but much depends on the exact terms.  One thing sure: De Witzliak need to tell TLR that the next time he runs down one of his players in public while the front office is trying to move said player, he should terminate the press conference with "... and I resign."

by StanTheManFan on Jan 12, 2008 3:39 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

the low road
absolutely agree.  tlr needs to think of the organization first and his spleen second in these matters.

by sportsman on Jan 12, 2008 4:01 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Nope...
I like it as well.  Glaus hit 38HR, in '06 and would have hit well over 30 in '07 were it not for the injury.

I don't see much cash changin hands either.

"You're either rebuilding for something special, or you're on the verge of something special. To be in between is foolish." Billy Beane

by bobbyballgame1 on Jan 12, 2008 3:14 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Rolen-Glaus
A swap of one player notable for whining and crying in exchange for one notable for problems with meds and peds.  Rather much a push

by akaitori on Jan 12, 2008 7:33 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Guess my
suprise for spring training is comming early.
Makes sence, both players with ????. I don't think we should pick up a dime in the deal because Rolen is a better defender. I know I'm bias, want to see my Rolen jersey, but I think we should get a prospect or 2 back also.

New meat for VEB to rip and love all at the same time.

by That's a Winner on Jan 12, 2008 1:05 PM EST   0 recs

Rolen gone
I'm okay with this as long as we're not eating any of the contract. Glaus may be an injury risk like Rolen, but he's a year cheaper and not on the drastic downward slope of offensive productivity.

by roebirds on Jan 12, 2008 1:13 PM EST   0 recs

I'm witholding judgement
Until the deal is final and we see exactly who and what cash is going where, but I'm initially inclined to like it.  We lose Rolen's defense but Glaus offers some real, actual protection for Pujols and is a lefty-masher.  

At full health I'd take Rolen over Glaus any day of the week, but does anyone really think Rolen will ever be at full health again?  Glaus has his own injury concerns, but a foot problem is less worrisome than Rolen's bum shoulder, and the move to natural grass should help him.

"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Jan 12, 2008 1:19 PM EST   0 recs

Plus
There's virtually no chance that Glaus doesn't show up for spring training.
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Jan 12, 2008 1:20 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

withholding judgement as well...
Although it pains me to see another piece of our mini dynasty get shipped off, I'm cautiously optimistic about this deal. We desperately needed some protection in the lineup for Pujols and I never thought we'd get an all-star player in return for Rolen.

On the down side, our pitching staff is still the 'pitch to contact' staff that relies heavily on oustanding defense. This worked when we had Pujols, Grudz, Renteria, Rolen, Sanders, Edmonds, Walker...but not so much when you replace those defensive studs with names like Ryan, Glaus, Duncan, Ankiel and Ludwick...

Acquire AJ Burnett!

by TheFranchise9 on Jan 12, 2008 1:39 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

speaking of my signature...
while we're on the phone with toronto, why don't we see about adding burnett and taking a giant step towards retooling our rotation and letting some power arms have a shot.
Acquire AJ Burnett!

by TheFranchise9 on Jan 12, 2008 1:41 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Why I like it
This deal is pretty much a wash, but it will bring the LaRussa/Rolen soap opera to an end.  No matter who is at fault, its just ridiculous.  

The main reason I like it is because his deal ends one year earlier.  It happens to be just the time Miguel Cabrera hits the free agent market.  He has already expressed an interest in playing across the diamond from Albert.  So as long as we can give him a competetive offer, I would think we have an edge there.

This may also depend on whether or not we are under new ownership at the time.  Which I think we will be.

"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe

by fatbellyjefferson on Jan 12, 2008 1:40 PM EST   0 recs

2 Points
1. Glaus' deal does end 1 year earlier, however his deal includes an 11.25 million dollar player option.  

(note: I don't understand Rosenthal's article at this point.  He says Glaus is GUARANTEED 24 million over the next two years and has a 11.25 million player option for 2009.  I'm assuming this is a typo and should be 2010.)

2.  I don't think you want to see what a "competitive" offer for Miguel Cabrera in two years is.  Think Pujols money and then double it.

by Big Red on Jan 12, 2008 1:56 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Here's what I don't like......
I know I'm in the minority here, but Glaus has been linked to PED'S--I'm sick of that!  I have sons that play baseball, and I hate that this organization embraces all kinds of former (maybe current) players involved with PED's.  Am I the only one that cares about this issue?
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jan 12, 2008 1:43 PM EST   0 recs

Its unavoidable
Unfortunately this is the way it is in baseball today.  Until the commissioners office stands up to the players union and gets things cleaned up, this is going to be an unaviodable part of the game.
"Your mom likes Albert Pujols" - Happy Joe

by fatbellyjefferson on Jan 12, 2008 1:46 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Well, it bothers me immensely......
and it bothers me that no one seems to care about this.  If these guys were caught with marijuana or heroin they'd be in bigger trouble than if they were taking ILLEGAL steroids or ILLEGAL HGH.  I guess the Cards are going to corner the market on all of them.  Let's sign Jay Gibbons and Barry Bonds too!

And how unfair is it to the guys who DON'T use PED's to have to compete for their jobs with those who do?

Like I said, I know I'm one of the few people who care about this issue, so this is all I'm going to say, because I know I'm almost irrational about it because it makes me so mad.

Everyone have a nice day.

She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jan 12, 2008 1:58 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Unfortunately
I, as a P.E. teacher understand your concerns. But right now, if you're going to want to separate your team from players who have used PEDs, you're going to have to accept a losing ballclub.  Between the players who were named in the Mitchel Report and those that are using (or did) and were not named, there's probably not that much to pick from that's worth a damn.

by Big Red on Jan 12, 2008 2:03 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

big mac land
Well bush has big mac land.  He was at the forefront of PED's so I would let it go Jill.  I know it is not ideal but it is hard to avoid this day and age.

I would suggest not supporting STL and the Big Mac Land if you don't like PED's.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 12, 2008 2:10 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I think more people care than what you think
but many are willing to accept that this has been the way of life for certain players for a while.  We really will never know all of who did what.  All we can do now is just move on and try to prevent such a gross abusive of PEDs from ever happening again.

by saladdays on Jan 12, 2008 4:13 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I appreciate
...Your idealism on this issue.  It's quite refreshing.  

However, if the Cardinals were to simply say "We don't want ANY PED users on this team" then they'd have no team.  That is the only way to make sure they don't have any if you follow that policy to its logical conclusion.  It is a simple fact that no one has any clue who all has/will use PEDs at some point.  I mean, Brian Roberts and Gary Bennett were named in the Mitchell Report for crying out loud!  Those are among the most random people to be PED users I've ever seen!  What happens if it comes out that Skip Schumaker(first name I could think of) used PEDs?  What proof do you use to boot him off the roster?  The word of some reporter with an axe to grind?  A guy who worked out with him one time a few years ago in Podunkville Gym?  

I'm not saying that the Cardinals or any other team needs to just throw their hands up in the air on this one.  They need to do whatever they can to educate their players on the dangers of PEDs.  They need to have strict penalties for anybody caught using (failed drug test).  But they can't just start making decisions based on past PED use.  It's the FO's responsibility to put a winning product on the field.  That's it.  No matter what we fans say about "class" or "professionalism" or whatever, that's just a collection of buzzwords that get in the way of objective business decisions.  The Giants went to the WS with Jeff Kent and Barry Bonds on their team, and you didn't see SF fans up in arms b/c they were winning sans class.

For the record, I am a parent as well and see what you are saying about "protecting your kids" and what not.  But that's our job, not the St. Louis Cardinals' job.  Its frustrating knowing that our kids are so hypnotized by TV and the crap they see on it.  But it's my job to explain to them why what they see in unrealistic and innapropriate for real-life behavior.  I'm lucky, b/c my two oldest kids are girls who play basketball and volleyball and could give a crap about baseball.  But if my son ever wants to know why he shouldn't use 'roids, the first thing I plan to do is talk about Lyle Alzado and Chris Benoit.  

BTW...This post is brutal.  I started about 4 sentences with "but."  What is wrong with me?

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 12, 2008 4:58 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

jill, I know how you feel...
but I think the fact that the Cubs are going hard and heavy after Roberts proves that whatever misgivings that these clubs have about PED's are going to be glossed over by an overwhelming desire to win...I live in Chicago, and nobody here is expressing any doubt about him coming to the Cubs, except maybe Jay Mariotti...it's not right, but at least we have reached a point where it's all out in the open (for the most part) and we can clean up the game from this point forward...what happens with the history remains to be seen.

by tbell61 on Jan 12, 2008 8:43 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

It's not as though
He'll be the only Cardinal linked to PEDs...

I'm sure there's several Cardinals who have used PEDs in the past, beyond Ankiel and now Glaus.  Just because they weren't named in the Mitchell report doesn't mean they were innocent.  

I mean, Larry Bigbie for cryin' out loud.  He should have got a refund from his dealer.

"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Jan 12, 2008 1:48 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I care about it Jilsinmo
and that's why I said earlier that I wasn't feeling to good about it..and Stl tyler you can say, "its not like he'll be the only Cardinal linked to it" but I can say that he'll be "one more Cardinal linked to it." I'll be anxious to see what Rolens numbers will be in Toronto compared to Glaus in Stl. next year. Might be better, but you won't see the instintively excellent play at third that Rolen has given in his time here.

by ridgesee on Jan 12, 2008 2:15 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Well, thanks for replying to my concerns.
I don't like to see yet another Cardinal linked to PED'S.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jan 12, 2008 2:24 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Then stop watching baseball
Because it will continue happening, no matter what team you follow.

by Jhusk on Jan 12, 2008 11:50 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

ped-0-philes
yes, trying to extrapolate what glaus will do based on what he has done with perhaps the aid of peds is hard to do.  is he a non-ped 30-40 homer guy?  an open question i think

by sportsman on Jan 12, 2008 4:06 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Good deal for both teams.
Both players are unhappy and want to get out. Rolen had a WARP3 last year of 5.7 and Glaus 5.8; both coming from slight pitcher's park. Glaus is two years younger and has one less year on his deal. The Bluejays asking from some cash thrown is is perfectly reasonable. I think this is a good move for both teams.

by maurerdj on Jan 12, 2008 1:49 PM EST   0 recs

I like it too
The chances of us getting fair value for Rolen when everyone knew that we were dying to get rid of him was pretty small, so I'm pretty happy with this all things considered. He's only one year removed from a .252/.355/.513 season, and the offense desperately needs that kind of OBP/Power combo.

by mikedallas23 on Jan 12, 2008 2:03 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

nice work la russa
i don't think we'd be paying toronto anything if la russa hadn't been so public about everything.

however, i like this trade, if only to be done with the entire stupid soap opera.  

at least it's not russell branyon...

by age3in82 on Jan 12, 2008 1:53 PM EST   0 recs

Rolen
Probably the bad shoulder caused that not TLR.  All teams knew he had health concerns.  He was not going to fetch much.

by ICbirdfan on Jan 12, 2008 2:09 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I was so excited to see that Cards and Jays
working on major trade.  Thought AJ Burnett was coming our way.

This is a sideways move.  Not a bad one, not particularly a good one.

We sure do like collecting PED users, though.

I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 12, 2008 2:03 PM EST   0 recs

Sideways
If you're looking at last year's numbers or money being owed, then yes I agree it's a sideways deal.

However, if you're looking at potential to improve, power and the removal of a major sourse of drama, then it's very much a positive move IMO.

by Big Red on Jan 12, 2008 2:06 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Honestly
it is more than likely that our quota of 2002 Angels had dipped to hazardously low levels and Mo had to act fast before the team reached critical mass.
I will be boxer briefs

by Hardcore Legend on Jan 12, 2008 2:09 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Good point
I completely forgot he played for the Angels.

by Big Red on Jan 12, 2008 2:12 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

great comment,
Hardcore..wish I'd thought of that.

by ridgesee on Jan 12, 2008 2:32 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Beat me to it
I was thinking the same thing.
After all we missed out on Darren Erstad.
But Bartolo Colon is still out there if need to get our Angel fix.

by That's a Winner on Jan 12, 2008 2:50 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Any Angels in the Outfield?
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.

by jillsinmo on Jan 12, 2008 3:30 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm so infuriated with the Cardinals and Larussa
The Cardinals have a such a great and history. We keep players and they retire as Cards and when the go into the hall they want to be Cards.

Where is the loyalty now with these new owners? I think the Cards need new owners that want to spend and win.

Trading Edmonds made some sense... But he was still a fan favorite and people came to the ballpark to watch Jimmy Baseball play the outfield like no one has played since the Say Hey Kid.

Now we trade Rolen, my personal favorite cardinal since Ozzie Smith. Why??? Because he plays the game correct, he works his tail off every game. He shows up everyday to win. He plays the hot corner like no one I have ever seen. And he doesn't show boat. How can we trade a borderline Hall of Famer like this? Just because he hates the manager... BTW Larussa is the one in the wrong here. He should have apologized for treating a veteran the way that he did. He just let the problem fester.

Larussa is a great manager. He is a Hall of Fame manager. But the Cardinals can win without Larussa, they cannot win without Scottie Baseball. His defense saved are horrible pitching staff. He was invaluable during our 06 World Series. He should have been the MVP actually.

I don't see the Cardinals filling many seats next year. The only reason to go is to watch Pujols hit and Wainwright pitch. The rest is going to be to hard to watch.

by jamieoverkamp on Jan 12, 2008 2:10 PM EST   0 recs

Amen
jamieoverkamp, you'll probably get critizied for your bold comments, but it won't be from me.

by ridgesee on Jan 12, 2008 2:20 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

JED and Rolen...
... both asked to be traded. the organization accommodated them. i'd say that the organization has done just fine by those players.

i don't really know what "loyalty" means in the context of a multi-billion dollar industry, but i would suggest that JED and Rolen were the ones who were disloyal, by telling the organization that they didn't want to play for their manager any longer and asking for trades.

in my opinion, there is no reason to be upset with the Cardinals organization over these trades. they have improved the long-term chances for success, and probably the short-term chances as well (remember: JED's back-ups out-performed him last season). the Cardinals are trying to do right by the fans. the fans just need to understand that it's going to take a little time.

by kindred on Jan 12, 2008 2:30 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

agreed...
for me the bottom line is they didn't want to be here...I'm all for people working where they want to work, and if they are not happy, then move on...fact is we are going to have a lot of young players in the clubhouse over the next couple of years, and I would just as soon see "bad apples" and "clubhouse lawyers" be moved off of the premises...go spread your poison somewhere else, thank you.

by tbell61 on Jan 12, 2008 8:48 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

wanna take
the under on 2,000,000 fans in regards to your "fans filling the seats" line? I'll take the over and see who comes out on top.

I love how for some fans loyalty is a one way street--it's the OWNERS that have to be loyal to the players and cater to their every need. Yeah, that's fair.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Jan 12, 2008 3:01 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Agree
No one ever seems to remember that baseball is a business.

by saladdays on Jan 12, 2008 4:15 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Loyalty...
There's no such thing as loyalty in professional sports anymore, especially baseball. It died with the advent of free agency and the owners' collusion. You'll never again see a Gwynn, Ripken, Brett, or Yount, where they spend their entire career with one team(well, maybe Jeter). I wouldn't be surprised at all if Pujols walks eventually.
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jan 12, 2008 4:25 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I criticize him ridgsee...
simply because his comments are emotionally based and there's no use for that when looking at a logical business decision.  Let's break this down one emotional, illogical statement at a time:
  1. The current Scott Rolen is not a HOFer.  He's barely above replacement level with the season he put up last year.  He's not one of the 5 best third baseman currently playing in the major leagues and the list of the active elite at that position is awful short. (A-Rod, Chipper, Wright, M. Cabrera, A. Ramirez, that's it).  Just look at the HOF standards ranking for Rolen at baseball-reference.  He isn't remotely close right now.  I don't see him ever getting back to 2003 or 2004 numbers...even if he did they wouldn't be markedly better offensively than Glaus.
  2. Both Rolen and LaRussa are in the wrong.  Fault lies on both sides of the isle on this one; LaRussa for putting it out in the open, Scott for continuing to pout about it.  Rolen was upset when he got benched in the playoffs?  Tough shit Scott, your backup was hitting the hide off of the ball and was a better option at the time, it was simply a "better for the team" decision.  A person who "plays the right way" would recognize that and not create a distraction for the team.
  3. Both Edmonds and Rolen asked to be traded.  The team obliged.  I don't remember Ozzie ever asking to be traded to a contender in his late years, but I'm sure that the team would have been happy to oblige him for his years of service.  Loyalty is such a bunch of bullshit: Fans want players to be loyal to a team that lowballs them on money, and would cut them in a second if they stop producing.  Fans want teams to be loyal to players even though fans have a quicker trigger than club management about poor play.  Jeff Suppan got BOOED at a regular season game I was at in 2006.  Let's stop pretending that loyalty means anything.  It's business, let's treat it as such.
  4. Why would people not show up to watch this ballclub?  Are you kidding?  Fans love home runs, Glaus hits a lot of those.  More than Rolen has hit in his career.  There are a lot of young players with good upside, a potential superstar in the minors, and a 1st ballot HOFer on the roster.  Saying you aren't going to watch is one thing, saying fans won't show up to watch this club is quite another.
(I also completely disagree that Edmonds was the best CF since Willie Mays.  There was a guy named Griffey who used to play there, maybe you've heard of him?  Ken Jr. used to catch balls on the run that Jimmy would be belly diving after...he's by far the best I've ever seen in person as I'm not old enough to have watched Mays or Mantle)
"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 12, 2008 4:27 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Good to hear from you fourstick
must have took you a long time composing that big giganic.. post but all the things you presented, I had already considered (I didn't just fall off a turnip yesterday and neither did he) but the one thing that impressed me with jamieoverkemp's and jillsinsmo's comments was that they showed moral concerns and values even if "the comments are emotional and there's no use in that in logical business decisions" as you say. It's that kind of "High Brow" comments that gripes me. Why can't somebody make a  emotional comment at a time like this on this blog without some intellectual posting a "full page add" to try to make him look like an idiot. He didn't  "post for show"  (as some people do) and neither did I. If at any time you feel someone's comments are below your intellect, why not just skip on by, but no...this is not the first time you have decided I needed a good lesson and I say again I don't need your lecturing.

by ridgesee on Jan 12, 2008 6:02 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

C'mon
Its fine to post emotional reactions that show moral concerns, but don't make those posters seem like martyrs when other posters correctly point out their errors in logic and complete ignorance of facts.  

I have grown so tired of fans trying to take the moral high ground, claiming the Cardinals have a moral obligation to field a PED-free team.  I don't think this issue is a moral or emotional one, myself, but I suppose it is for some people.  However, aside from the problems of knowing who took PEDs, for how long, their legality, and weight of the evidence, these concerns are a mile wide and an inch deep.  I guarantee these "morally conscious" fans you allude to were cheering just as hard as anyone else when Big Mac was hitting monster HRs, when Rick Ankiel was hitting homers last year, and will be cheering along side everyone else if the Cards and their former PED-using players make the playoffs next year (or the year after that, or the year after that).  Stand on your morals if you want and don't watch the team or cheer for suspected users -- but you don't simply get the benefit of standing on a moral high ground by making a post on a blog.  

You can't have it both ways -- you can't make "emotional comments" based on "moral concerns" if those comments and concerns aren't backed up by facts and at the same time complain about other posters arguing against you.  Emotional comments and "moral concerns" don't get a free pass -- they get the same treatment as all other posts on this site; all are open to scrutiny and debate.  

by Ray Lankford on Jan 12, 2008 6:41 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

You're right ray langford
It's just the snobbish way of doing it that I detest. Now your comments..good, courtous, no "aloofness" made your point and didn't try to shove a bunch of garbage down my throat..I respect that.

by ridgesee on Jan 12, 2008 7:00 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm not trying to be snobbish...
and if that's the way my post came off I apologize.  I was simply trying to add some logical opposition to what was said, and I'm sorry that it takes more than 40 words to say it.  I do think that my points stand on their merits.
"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2008 8:43 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Lecturing...
So you think I'm lecturing you...then you proceed to lecture me...interesting way of making your case.  If you have a problem with anything I had to say or feel that something I said in the post was incorrect, then please reply and call me out.  I'm not calling anyone out on this subject, I'm simply putting what was said to the test based on facts and numbers like we all do on this site.

I have posted on this site more than one time that I have always liked Scott Rolen as a player, and I wish him the very best in Toronto, but that doesn't mean the deal is bad for the team or for the players involved.  I think everyone wins in this situation, except maybe the Blue Jays unless they get some cash in the deal.

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2008 8:47 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

excellent, excellent
I agree with every thing you had to say, fourstick.  

jamieoverkamp: as a teenager  i had a similar emotional response when willie mcgee was traded. the following year it hurt seeing him in an a giants uni.  maturity and time will remedy this. it ain't easy, but you'll get over it.

I'd rather my sister become a prostitute than my brother become a Cub fan.

by _pistol_ on Jan 12, 2008 8:36 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Rolen was
not barely above replacement level last year. That is absolutely incorrect.

As for him asking to leave, that doesn't preclude the issues the original poster raised wrt LaRussa. In fact, it strengthens it, if anything. Where you lay the blame there is another matter.

I'm more interested in the fact that the Cardinals brought LaRussa back knowing it would be an issue, no matter who is "right".

by plh903 on Jan 13, 2008 1:11 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

The stats back me up on that one....
Rolen's 2007 VORP: 4.1

That is the definition of barely above replacement level.

Glaus' 2007 VORP: 20.5

Keep in mind both got hurt and had relatively the same amount of healthy AB's last season.

"I just wish that the late Harry Carey were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Jan 13, 2008 8:51 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I totally disagree
Rolen and Edmonds both ASKED to be traded.  They both have no-trade clauses and could say "no" to any trade.  And yet, curiously, Edmonds didn't do that.

Rolen is being traded b/c his shoulder was hurt, got benched, and pouted about it for a year.  The dude is a grown-ass man, not some little boy.  Surely he should get about half of the blame with TLR for their relationship going into the shitter.  I highly doubt he's being traded b/c he "doesn't show boat" as you suggest.  I agree that TLR is in the wrong here too for not handling the situation a little more privately and in a more professional manner, but a 30+ year old man pouting and holding grudges is a bit problematic, don't you think?

I don't get what you're saying here RE: Edmonds.  That the FO should have held on to him so the fans could see him go off into the sunset?  The guy is a baseball player, not a zoo animal that you hold on to for the amusement of the fan base.  He asked to be traded b/c he didn't want to be a platoon player at this point.  If they HADN'T traded him, that would have seemed awful jealous for the FO.  Besides, the Cardinals have several exciting/young players who are better than him right now.  The FO owes it to the fans to put a good product out there, not to put a bunch of "aw shucks" fan favorites who stink on the field.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Jan 12, 2008 4:32 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

For crying out loud
This isn't little league!  (although our manager and third baseman's conduct suggest otherwise)  Players come and players go.  For fans, the best thing to hope for is that the organization put the best team on the field possible.  Why did we trade Rolen?  Three reasons: 1) he's often injured and in decline, 2) he's had a public fued with the manager,  3) he ASKED TO BE TRADED.  

Its great that you want to see Rolen and Edmonds retire as Cardinals, but they didn't want to.  You can't hold that against the organization.

You think this year will be hard to watch?  Yeah, maybe it will.  But no more so than last year, when we had our heros Rolen and Edmonds.  

I really don't mean to be offensive.  Don't want to watch the Cards next year?  Cool.  Don't.  But I'm willing to bet that as soon as the club can cultivate another great player, you'll start watching again and all this fuss over Rolen and Edmonds will be forgotten.  

by Ray Lankford on Jan 12, 2008 4:50 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

according to Cot's...
... Glaus is only signed through this year, then has the $11.25mn player option. he's owed $12.75mn for this year. Rolen is owed $12mn for each of the next three seasons.

so, basically, the Cards are saving $12mn in 2010, although it looks like they'll be sending some cash over to compensate.

Glaus' OPS+ the past three seasons: 126, 122, 120. Rolen's OPS+ the past three seasons: 84, 126, 89.

Rolen's defense is only valuable if he's on the field, and he has averaged only 104 games played the past three seasons.

i think i like this deal. it continues Mo's trend of trying to get younger, and frees up some future cash. as a bonus, the TLR/ScoRo saga will finally be over.

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