say it ain't so
i was just telling alex belth of sports illustrated how the buzz surrounding ankiel dramatically altered the dynamic of the cardinals' season. talk about buzz kill . . . . let's assume for the moment that ankiel really did take HGH. i have my own reasons for assuming that it's true --- i know two of the writers bylined on the article containing the allegations, quinn and o'keeffe, and they're both excellent journalists and individuals of integrity. if they've signed their names to this, i take it very seriously. a third byline on that story belongs to bill madden, who --- while not my favorite crafter of prose --- has been in this business for 30 years and has a spotless reputation.
but set that aside and just look at the degree of specificity in the article. the daily news names the drugs, the company that shipped them, and the physician who signed the scrips. with that much detail, and that many names named, we're not merely talking about some wild and flimsy allegation. no successful news organization --- and the daily news, for all its sensationalizing, is definitely successful --- can afford to publish that amount of detail without being 100 percent sure of its facts. rupert murdoch didn't build his empire by exposing himself to libel suits for the sake of one splashy headline; that's not a profitable strategy. and murdoch publications are nothing if not profitable.Update [2007-9-7 9:46:44 by lboros]: my bad; this is not a murdoch publication (i never could keep all those nyc newspapers straight). the point stands anyway; the daily news has the 6th-largest circulation of any paper in the u.s.; it has won 10 pulitzer prizes and has been in continuous publication since 1919.[end update]
i'm pretty sure this is true.
the next question is --- so what? he had a prescription for the drugs, and they're legal with a prescription; and he received them in 2004, before mlb instituted its formal prohibition on steroids. therefore, ankiel didn't break any rules or do anything wrong --- right? i might be willing to accept that interpretation if i heard it straight from ankiel's mouth. if he truly did nothing untoward and has nothing to hide, nothing to be ashamed of, then he can kill this story in a single day. if i were his pr advisor, i'd get him out in front of the microphones immediately --- call a press conference and sit rick down to tell his side of the story. i'd have him lay out the facts --- explain why he needed the drugs, what the medical benefit was, and how he didn't break any laws or any mlb rules. i'd have him state publicly that when mlb instituted its formal steroid ban in 2005, he stopped using the drugs. that'd make this story go fizz in a new york minute.
he's got no legal obligation to do this, of course, but he has a selfish reason to do it --- he wants to avoid a swirl of controversy and suspicion. the "innocent-til-proven-guilty" standard doesn't apply here; we're not in a courtroom. we're in the court of public opinion, and in this venue the burden of proof tends to fall upon the accused rather than the accuser. fair? maybe not, but life often isn't. if ankiel just issues a "no comment" or a two-sentence statement written by a boras flunky, it will leave the impression that he's got something to hide, and many will judge him harshly. ankiel can create the opposite impression by facing the story openly and unabashedly.
failing that, suspicion is going to follow him around. blame the messenger if you want to; decry the sins of the evil media. but if ankiel really did this, and he isn't willing to talk about it, then ask yourself: why won't he talk about it? if it's truly no big deal and no code of conduct was breached --- why won't he talk about it? he can stick it to the media and make his accusers look like a bunch of hype-mongering fools simply by standing up to the accusations. yeah, it's true. [shrug] my doctor said hgh would help my rehab along; he said it had been helpful in some other cases that were similar to mine. and it wasn't on the list of banned substances; we checked that out in advance. it was all legal, all above-board.
end of story.
walt jocketty told the daily news: "If it's true, obviously it would be very tragic, along with everything else we've had happen to us this year." i agree wth walt. the steroid-abuse saga has a million hypocrites and scoundrels, from the commissioner down through the general managers, the coaches and on-field managers, the beat writers and broadcasters, the trainers, the agents . . . . . all those guys have their fingerprints on the syringes. and now they're all running away from what they did; nobody wants to talk about it. why won't they talk? if they didn't do anything wrong, why would they choose to give the impression that they did?
i hope ankiel will bat these allegations out of the park as effortlessly as he has been swatting big-league pitches over the wall.
0 recs |
419 comments
Comments
Thank you
by Valatan on Sep 7, 2007 9:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
thanks V
by lboros on Sep 7, 2007 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A season like this one?
by cardsgirl95 on Sep 7, 2007 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the timing is just a coincidence
- have the lawyers signed off on it?
- is there a chance somebody might beat us on the story?
by lboros on Sep 7, 2007 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
by nycbirdo on Sep 7, 2007 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not entirely true...
by TriplePlay on Sep 7, 2007 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i disagree with that
the longer the daily news sat on the story, the more likely it was that ankiel would go into a slump and the buzz surrounding him wears off. ankiel became a big story the day he returned to the big leagues, and he has remained a big story ever since.
if ankiel had come back and was hitting .210 with 1 homer and 6 rbi, then they might not have been in such a hurry to get this into print. but i can guarantee you that they didn't sit on this thing for long, if at all --- and to the extent they did sit on it, it was because the lawyers made them.
by lboros on Sep 7, 2007 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you Larry...
DATE OPP RESULT AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI
8/31 CIN W 8-5 5 1 2 0 0 1 4
9/1 CIN W 11-3 4 2 3 1 0 0 3
9/2 CIN W 3-2 3 1 1 0 0 1 2
9/3 PIT L 0-11 2 0 0 0 0 0 0
9/4 PIT W 6-2 3 2 1 1 0 0 1
9/5 PIT L 2-8 4 1 1 0 0 1 2
9/6 PIT W 16-4 4 4 3 1 0 2 7
by cardzfanbub on Sep 7, 2007 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
by birds 4 life on Sep 7, 2007 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I worked as a reporter for several papers ...
Many nobodies and also-rans have been implicated for PHD use, and nobody was "sitting" on those. As Cardinal fans and Ankiel boosters, it might feel like "the media" is out to get us, but that's a conspiracy theory that doesn't hold water.
by bgodar on Sep 7, 2007 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a case of
by cardsrul on Sep 7, 2007 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually the LA Times has a well documented . . .
by CheapSeats on Sep 7, 2007 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
by cardsgirl95 on Sep 7, 2007 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are in the business of selling papers
It's a much better story when Ankiel has 2HR and 7 RBI day and when the Cards are 1 game back. That gives them their splashy lines of questioning the comeback kid and the surging Card's who are now contenders (they couldn't have done it w/o Ankiel, so the story goes).
And if the reporters were just being professsional, then they should have put pertinent facts into the beginning of the story (like MLB did)--the legal prescription, the pre-ban 2004 date, etc. Rather, they framed the story in terms of his current performance and bury the context in the middle of the sory. It's a professional decision to present the story in a way that can easily mislead a reader who is skimming.
At least from my perspective--having to put up with the a lot of sensationalist BS from New York papers--I'm surprised by what seems like some people's naive sense of reporters motivations and choices about when and how to report a big story.
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
since i've worked in a newsroom
by lboros on Sep 7, 2007 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well perhaps you haven't worked in all newsrooms
Looking at the page, how can one not think the story is presented in a sensatinalist way? Just look at its presentation.
What I think is naive is if someone believes reporters are not driven by motivations, whether they commercial, or having the biggest story they can have, or with the intent to smear someone's reputation and gain an edge over an opponent (politics remember). This is always a possibility. It's not always a reality. But it's a possibility.
I wasn't directing the comment to you but to readers in general. I don't know what you think about that.
To me it's naive to have ucritical faith in the purity of journalist's motives. But maybe that comes from my line of work and stories I've heard from journalists I know.
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
of course it's sensationalized
but it's not the only motive ---- their motives are complex, and they are often at odds with the motives of the publishers, ad salesmen, circulation folks, branding consultants, legal consultants, and other professionals who make up the newspaper enterprise. it is a real tug of war with a lot of motivations, often cross-cutting ones.
there is a simplistic argument afoot that the ny daily news' editorial staff cooked up a little scheme to tear down rick ankiel just when his story reached the height of its feel-goodness. i'm saying that newspaper decisions are far more complex than that.
the motives are rarely "pure," but even if a story is driven by raw greed or by the publisher's personal animus against a powerful interest, it still doesn't discredit the story as long as it's properly reported and sourced.
by lboros on Sep 7, 2007 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another thing
by TurdFerguson on Sep 7, 2007 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I work
by DCGreg on Sep 7, 2007 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to throw my hat in the ring
The SBNation's Atlanta Falcons Blog
by Dave the Falconer on Sep 7, 2007 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And let's not forget,
by MdRedbirdFreak on Sep 7, 2007 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have people not watched elections?
Many New York reporters run in rougher political circles than other parts of the country and some definitely use information in a messy sensationalist way according to their interests and timeline.
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a little naive
So if the writing itself is sensationalized, take a look at the reporter. But if you have a quibble with the timing, either look at the editor or understand that it's always a race to the finish in the news business.
The SBNation's Atlanta Falcons Blog
by Dave the Falconer on Sep 7, 2007 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I take issue with how the information
Initially, HGH is mentioned in terms of Rick's recent comeback; then it links Rick to a company being investigated for illegal drug distribution. They choose not to state early on that Rick had a prescription for this in 2004 before it was banned and that he was recovering from an injury. Unless you read the whole story, someone could easily think he is taking the drug now and that his behavior is clearly illegal.
They wait until the middle of the story to give the pertinent facts. That was clearly a choice, not an accident. And it is a choice that differs from the MLB presentation. The NY story is set up to draw readers in by being scintillating. Only later do you realize that the story is not so sensationalist as it first seemed.
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't think it's distorted
don't you wonder why was he doing business with that sort of outfit? i do.
by lboros on Sep 7, 2007 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they set it solely in the context of his recent
If they had been upfront with all the information like MLB was, I would have no complaint. There story was very good. But they chose not to do that.
I'm sure our experience predisposes us to see news stories more or less skeptically. If you worked in a newsroom with reporters and editors as colleagues and I've worked in the area of politics and public policy, with all the infighting that involves (and that includes journalists), it's natural that we would probably view the structuring of a story like this differently.
We should just agree to disagree.
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i've worked in politics / policy too
but this isn't shoddy journalism.
by lboros on Sep 7, 2007 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
as I said, we'll have to agree to disagree
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shoddy vs Sensationalist?
However, I also agree that it clearly appears to be intentionally sensationalized journalism, no doubt in part by the editors' "contributions" to the story, layout, headline, etc.
Both of those can be true.
by Mr Clean on Sep 7, 2007 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Location
That's my story and I'm stickin' with it.
by kemime on Sep 7, 2007 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i can assert
i cannot however, do the same for the editor or publishers of the daily news...
by sdesserman on Sep 7, 2007 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree V
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree 100 percent.
My concern is that Ankiel is later going to pushed to take it a step further and rat out some other people. How did he find out about this doctor and his clinic? Probably was steered there by another player. Let's hope he keeps his mouth shut in that respect (unless he really found this doctor by perusing the Yellow Pages).
by MdRedbirdFreak on Sep 7, 2007 9:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
Yes. Simple as that.
Actually, have MLB and George Mitchell look into the matter if both parties are serious about investigating performance enhancing drug use in the sport.
by champion on Sep 7, 2007 9:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
if i hear that straight from ankiel's mouth
by lboros on Sep 7, 2007 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It isn't as simple as that
Who is to say he didn't go doctor shopping once MLB banned the substance?
I'd like to give Rick the benefit of the doubt. He'd brought me great joy over this last month and brought forth a great deal of emotion over what he was able to acheive. But, as a fan of baseball who has lived through the last 15 years, you can't give ANY player the benefit of the doubt.
The Cardinals and Rick will go into 'bunker' mentality, again, like they do with every story. This story won't go away.
Another fantastic turn in the season from hell.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope.
I'm basing my opinion on what I know from several published reports including the NYDN article. I'm not "assuming" anything.
by champion on Sep 7, 2007 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a very
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, But More Like The Opposite.
by champion on Sep 7, 2007 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you assume this is Rick's only
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but you're assuming
by gthedamned on Sep 7, 2007 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
3rd hand knowlege
by Eckstreem on Sep 7, 2007 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
at least for now
by gthedamned on Sep 7, 2007 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rabid.
by Eckstreem on Sep 7, 2007 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you should not be spreading rumors
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it is a
by cards4life on Sep 7, 2007 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
while true
by gthedamned on Sep 7, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, stay with the known facts
We can deal with future information if it comes out; it's unfair to saddle Ankiel with the worst when we have no evidence to base that on. We should just stay with what we now. And that's not being overprotective or being too much of a fan or sticking our head in the sand. That's simply being fair and judicious.
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Prove.
Not once in the article is it said that Ankiel broke a single MLB policy. Not one. Don't you think the writers of the piece would have mentioned that if they had a shred of proof that Ankiel was in violation of MLB rules? I do. Then again, that's just my assumption.
by champion on Sep 7, 2007 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just because
by cards4life on Sep 7, 2007 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thorny
What I mean is, why would the charitable interpretation seem more plausible coming from Ankiel's own mouth? We all know that it's in his interest to spin this story as LB prescribes, so why wouldn't that story seem just as suspect?
Once we turn our attention from the facts of the case and their moral/legal implications to the question of how to best handle this from a PR standpoint, we very easily slip into this critical/cynical mindset: if his response seems canned, it's because he's hiding something. If his response seems candid, it's canned candor--he's received some good advice. And so on. There's no way out; no way of really knowing what's true and what's mere calculation.
I'm not exempting myself from this way of thinking, and I'm absolutely not rushing to judge Ankiel. I'm just saying that once we get into this discussion--the one about how to manage public perception--the bullshit can get very deep, very fast. I'm not sure how to cut through it without invoking potentially cheesy words like Trust and Faith. What a mess.
by Hummingbird on Sep 7, 2007 9:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
those are fair points
by lboros on Sep 7, 2007 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Understood
I'm with you, I really am. I'm not an especially cynical person; I think we're in cynical times.
by Hummingbird on Sep 7, 2007 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but
No integrity, no ethics. He should be lambasted.
by bukowski on Sep 7, 2007 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
I want to trust Ankiel. If he says what LB prescribes, I want to believe him. I'm just saying that as a critically functional 21st-century human, it's hard to do.
by Hummingbird on Sep 7, 2007 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Understand and Agree.
by bukowski on Sep 7, 2007 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If there's a way out
by Hummingbird on Sep 7, 2007 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hummingbird is right
Also, Bernie made a good point in his blog entry on the subject. The fact that there is no reliable test for HGH allows the cheaters to continue to cheat if they wish, but the lack of testing also denies a clean player the chance to clear his name.
What a mess indeed.
by cardsgirl95 on Sep 7, 2007 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The best approach
In fact, if I really wanted to paint a sympathetic picture of him, I would have him talk about other past drug use as he hit rock bottom when trying to rebuild his pitching career -- too much too soon. He stopped using other drugs, he stopped HGH, and used this new opportunity to change his life. Now THAT is a made for TV movie at the least.
Of course, if he is still using, well, all bets are off...
by jimstllax on Sep 7, 2007 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Medical Reason
That being said I agree with the post that he MUST come out and talk about this. This story only becomes a monkey on his back if he hides behind a "no comment". It was before the ban on substances and from what I've heard he did not receive another prescription after the ban.
This does not change my perception of him or what he has accomplished one bit.
by indakind on Sep 7, 2007 9:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Murdoch
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 9:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
thanks for pointing that out
by lboros on Sep 7, 2007 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another quick thing
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel's not good with the media
With that said, my view is similar to lboros' -- this happened more than two years ago, with a doctor's prescription. So what? It's a big stretch to use this story to claim that Ankiel's current success is attributable to drugs, especially since he's shown great promise as a hitter from high school onward.
BTW -- Rupert Murdoch doesn't own The Daily News. He owns the New York Post. Mort Zuckerman owns The Daily News.
by Dexter Westbrook on Sep 7, 2007 9:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
One other point about Murdoch
by Dexter Westbrook on Sep 7, 2007 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Always a bridesmaid
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea, I was embarrassed
by Dexter Westbrook on Sep 7, 2007 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he had a prescription for all shipments ...
Issue: If what we are talking about is a doctor prescribing for Rick HGH that was not medically necessary nor advisable but Rick only used that which was prescribed and stopped when MLB banned the stuff, then I don't see how Rick has done something he get suspended for by MLB. Nor is he in legal peril. It's a PR hit and nothing more. Agree with LB that the best way to deal with a PR issue is head on immediately.
by jjray on Sep 7, 2007 9:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If you start thinking like Johnnie Cochran
"If the address doesn't fit you must acquit"
Seriously though, I agree that Rick and the Cardinals organization need to get in front of this fast.
by Big Mike on Sep 7, 2007 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well..
As others have said, a strong public play to make sure everyone knows the story and understands the situation by Ankiel would be a smart move.
What concerns me the most is the firestorm of publicity this will create. How will Ankiel respond to the intense scrutiny? Will he struggle at the plate, something the Cards can ill-afford at this point in the season? We all know Ankiel has had trouble in the past dealing with such high-pressure situations.
by JMedwick on Sep 7, 2007 9:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree, Larry.
by birdjam on Sep 7, 2007 9:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bunker
by awpierce on Sep 7, 2007 9:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Matthews, Jr.
by awpierce on Sep 7, 2007 9:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Natural
by indakind on Sep 7, 2007 9:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
interesting
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to Google Earth
In other news, I'm looking up how far a hypothetical Rick Ankiel home run would go on Google Earth to test for parallels to The Natural at 9 in the morning. I think it's time for a girlfriend.
by joker24 on Sep 7, 2007 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
will it end like the book or the movie?
by texbird on Sep 7, 2007 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no kidding
by enoscountry on Sep 7, 2007 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Book right now
The only thing missing is a young boy asking Rick if this is true and then the book ending (from how I gather the plot without actually reading it). Since this is real life then life will go on regardless.
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Difference?
by indakind on Sep 7, 2007 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From Wikipedia
Book ends with Hobbs taking a bribe and striking out and having to face his fans beaten and broken down, movie ends with him triumphantly overcoming a bleeding stomach and everything turns out all right (hollywood loves happy endings authors prefer better literature)
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The
by redbirdnation8206 on Sep 7, 2007 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you know what
and you know what, i don't give a damn.
i feel this way because even if he did take it it was THREE YEARS AGO UNDER COMPLETLY LEGAL CIRCUMSTANCES. this is just another classic example of the east coast media trying to undertake a star of the nl central. anyone with a brain should know that after the story "breaks" after ankiel hits two bombs and has 7 RBIs yesterday. would they write this if he was still in AAA, i think not.
by stlcardinalsfang on Sep 7, 2007 9:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You think
by awpierce on Sep 7, 2007 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry for the snark
by awpierce on Sep 7, 2007 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're right
by texbird on Sep 7, 2007 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if he really is on the juice
by lboros on Sep 7, 2007 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
by indakind on Sep 7, 2007 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
legitimate use
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
by Valatan on Sep 7, 2007 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good article
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/515665
"The FDA has approved GH only for GH deficiency-related syndromes causing short stature in children, adult GH deficiency caused by rare pituitary tumors and their treatment, and muscle-wasting disease associated with HIV and AIDS. Most GH prescriptions should therefore be for children, but 74% of human GH (HGH) prescriptions in 2004 were for adults aged 20 years and older, and 44% were for adults aged 40 to 59 years, suggesting to the authors that a large proportion of GH sales are for illegal uses."
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FDA Approval
by bdub78 on Sep 7, 2007 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not in the case of HGH
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clarification
There are important differences between HGH and Steriods and it doesn't seem we're partitioning those right now. That is, HGH certainly help one recover from ailments and be healthy but aren't that much of a power booster. I still think HGH is bad for baseball but I don't think Ricks power numbers are a fluke.
That said, I think Bernie is right. There is no way this is getting figured out. Thankfully, Pujols remains a childlike hero for me, for now.
by enoscountry on Sep 7, 2007 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that it's relevant but you seem
by sdrone on Sep 7, 2007 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HGH promotes growth
by Valatan on Sep 7, 2007 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, not to be picky
Of course, he's in his prime, so my point may not be relevant.
by sdrone on Sep 7, 2007 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how do
by cards4life on Sep 7, 2007 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Coupla points
- Even if he did have a doctor's prescription and it was for rehab purposes, he's going to get hounded. And increased pressure could cause him to crack again? Think: Outfield, Wrigley Field.
- There was an aside in the ESPN article about "eerie similarities" to McGwire. Completely different stories. I hope to god that this story doesn't bring up that skeleton in the closet of Cardinals fans again. McGwire is basically without balls - and not standing up for himself has caused most people to assume guilt. The shadow of McGwire is now bad for baseball.
- Completely agree, Rick needs to face this head on. But the Cardinals aren't the most upfront organization.
- If I were Rick, I'd never say "sorry." It wasn't cheating at the time of the incident in question, end of story.
- I'd like to see his teammates, especially Rolen, and Carpenter come out in support - loudly. In a team that appears at time to be lifeless, this can band them together.
- Tony and Walt should stand behind Rick in a press conference and say to the media in effect "this is our guy. We support him 100%, and this has no impact on his success" That may defray the cracking of Ankiel's psyche.
by bukowski on Sep 7, 2007 9:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i believe raining frogs is next
by texbird on Sep 7, 2007 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
Mass hysteria!
by champion on Sep 7, 2007 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ghostbusters...
by GOOCH24 on Sep 7, 2007 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Joke
by jimstllax on Sep 7, 2007 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh no
by JMedwick on Sep 7, 2007 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OUR PETS HEADS ARE FALLING OFF!
by TriplePlay on Sep 7, 2007 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been joking
by nybirdgirl on Sep 7, 2007 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like most of you
If the story is true then, and he did stop when they say. They it was before the implosion in spring training where he retired and then returned as an outfielder. If... then the feel good story is still a feel good story. It doesn't change things for me.
If...
by paCardsFan on Sep 7, 2007 10:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It's important to note
This, of course, doesn't matter to Bud and the powers that be w/ MLB, but do not let anyone fool you into thinking that Ankiel's hitting homers b/c he took HGH 3 years ago. If it was 3 days ago, it's not why he's hitting homers. Players may think that it will help them, but studies indicate it doesn't...period!
by chuckb on Sep 7, 2007 10:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Honestly,
by Valatan on Sep 7, 2007 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
does it matter if it helps him hit homeruns?
"HGH is an abbreviation for Human Growth Hormone that is produced by the pituitary gland in the brain. This hormone stimulates growth and cell production in human beings.The main property of HGH is to increase height, and the other important benefits are that it increases muscle mass, helps in calcium retention in our body, helps in keeping bones healthy, reduces fat in the body, helps in controlling sugar and insulin levels, helps with immunity and several more important functions that keep us healthy when we are young."
he was taking hgh before he sustained that injury in 2005 spring training. it helps him indirectly and taking hgh gives him an advantage over other ballplayers that dont take it, so it is cheating no matter how you look at it.
by cards4life on Sep 7, 2007 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is cheating
by chuckb on Sep 7, 2007 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
even if he did use HGH under shady
by erik on Sep 7, 2007 10:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's what the rotoworld blurb says.
by CardFaninVA on Sep 7, 2007 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sweet
As far as this never-ending saga goes, there's little to no point in trying to prove the legality from our limited set of facts. I find it mildly ironic that after people lambaste Bonds, they can perform the proper contortions to vindicate Ankiel (I'm not pointing fingers at anyone -- but we all know there's a Cardinal fan doing this somewhere). They can both do steroids and it isn't going to bother me a lick. It was a problem endemic to major league baseball and crucifying individuals for the sin of the system is pointless, imo. I like watching players be at the top of their game -- shoot them all up for as much as I care.
Enjoy what Ankiel is doing. HGH may provide some level of assistance but he's hit 40 or so HRs this year. That's talent, not some pill. I've never understood the Ankiel-mania; I never invested myself in his comeback story for whatever reason. But I understand that it's really inspiring to some people, and they shouldn't let this get in the way of that inspiration.
by azruavatar on Sep 7, 2007 10:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bonds
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you
I'd much prefer we talk about the game of baseball. There's a lot to talk about with this cardinal team right now.
by cardsfaninmass on Sep 7, 2007 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but if thats
by cards4life on Sep 7, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has baseball been damaged by
I don't enjoy watching the game or analyzing stats any less than I did before the steroids mess.
by azruavatar on Sep 7, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
to say nothing of the fact
by chuckb on Sep 7, 2007 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"crucifying individuals for the sin
That's brilliant and sums up how I felt/feel.
If you think steroids don't help you hit home runs you're purposely being obtuse.
If you don't think people like Bonds, Sosa, Mac, etc were juicing, you're completely naive.
Just like pro-wrestling, body building, everything else, everybody was doing it, everybody knew, and nobody said a word. Through the blind eye they encouraged it. They probably even used quotation fingers when talking about it...sure it's "illegal" wink.
You know that San Fran was begging Bonds to juice up after 98. You know MLB knew but didn't care. It was accepted and expected back then.
Now, the Ankiel thing, it's even less of big deal because of things already stated. Not steroids and not banned by the mlb at the time of the offense. That would be like getting mad Walter Johnson for using a spit ball.
by rocKStark5 on Sep 7, 2007 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess
It doesn't really surprise me -- I still assume at least 50% of guys in MLB were using something -- and as long as he's not using now or when it went on the banned list, then I just don't really care.
I think I've been desensitized from this season.
by Alxfritz on Sep 7, 2007 10:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
by Ray Lankford on Sep 7, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Keeping things in perspective
Worse: The media reporting that you took PEDs to treat impotence. (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/090707dnspowilson.2b0ac0a.html)
by birdjam on Sep 7, 2007 10:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I that case, screw the media
by sdrone on Sep 7, 2007 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that won't help the cause any...
by gthedamned on Sep 7, 2007 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That suggestion
by RedbirdRay on Sep 7, 2007 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
People pay attention!
by sdrone on Sep 7, 2007 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not only that
by chuckb on Sep 7, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
elbow surgery
Good, balanced perspective as usual, Larry. Like you, I'll reserve judgment. If he took HGH during 2004, and only 2004, as a desperate attempt to get his career back on track, I won't judge him too harshly.
by DCGreg on Sep 7, 2007 10:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
HGH
- By the rules of the game, he didn't do anything wrong. HGH wasn't banned when he took it, and according to the SI report I read, he stopped receiving shipments of HGH shortly before the ban. If you think this is a cookie-cutter defense, like how people defend players from the '90s by saying that steroid use wasn't banned by the MLB in the '90s, then how about this,
- There is no proof that HGH enhances performance and there is some proof that it doesn't. This might seem like I'm trying to prove a negative, but here: http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/124/8/708?ijkey=4d4f3cb946f5eb5a6021d2bea4ac47cadb30310c
This leaves
3) Ankiel thought that the HGH would enhance his performance when it would do no such thing. Some people would argue that even if HGH does not help one cheat, the intent to cheat is still there. So what? Are the thought police gonna throw Ankiel in the clink?
Unfortunately, many people and many Cards fans are going to accuse Ankiel of all kinds of Bondsian things, and I think that reflects how poorly educated we all are on the nuances of HGH, etc. I don't even want to imagine what Cubs fans will use as catcalls, but I'm sure it will equal the homophobic things they scream at Jimmy Edmonds.
I'm still pulling for Rick Ankiel, and given how early we are in the process, I hope most everyone else here is, too.
by joepo on Sep 7, 2007 10:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Did anyone else hear the reporter...
by birds 4 life on Sep 7, 2007 10:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great, levelheaded post today
by Alxfritz on Sep 7, 2007 10:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
As usual
by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 7, 2007 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Will's take was excellent
by birdjam on Sep 7, 2007 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They're both great
by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 7, 2007 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the slate story
by DCGreg on Sep 7, 2007 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But what' sad is that Ankiel
And now we look at what we made of Ankiel and say that he has somehow sullied the innocence we longed for--he brought down the hero image we yearned for, he's not the symbolic redemed that we thought he was.
Well we shouldn't have put him up in that position in the first place. He didn't want us to. And I think he knew the dangers of such inflated expectations. We as fans, and the media, put him someplace he didn't want to go; and now we feel entitled to complain about a "loss of innocence" and the "fading of the fairy tale" and the fact that there are no more "heroes".
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not Me.
by champion on Sep 7, 2007 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree about not sullying his name
I do think people should examine the sadder personal side of this for Rick. Other people wanted the fairy tale story, the come back kid story, the redemption story because it made them feel good about the world, about possibilities, about sports, or whatever.
Ankiel wanted to be left in peace so that he could develop his talents without a media circus. He refused to talk to the media. He asked them not to write those stories. He told them he didn't trust them in what they would do with those stories. And he was right.
With the evidence we have, I wonder if some people are primarily thinking about themselves--about their own disappointments, their own suspicions, their own moral judgments. I think we should be focusing more of our attention on Ankiel's welfare.
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is easy...
by Red Blazer on Sep 7, 2007 10:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
elsewhere, in feel good land
by erik on Sep 7, 2007 10:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And QC lost a heartbreaker
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm feeling torn
by nybirdgirl on Sep 7, 2007 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing I find difficult
Assuming it's true, it seems as though he should've discussed this with Cardinals management (Jocketty, LaRussa, DeWitt) when (if not before) he was called up and explained why he was taking it, again assuming it was for a medical reason.
The fact that Jocketty seems taken aback by this, doesn't leave me with a good feeling, if for no other reason than the Cardinals never gave up on Rick and continued to resuscitate and nuture his career.
I hope that Rick, his management team, and the Cardinals will explain this soon.
by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 7, 2007 10:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Also, what would you expect Jocketty to say? "Oh, yeah, we actually knew about this a long time ago but we decided to call up Rick anyway in the hopes that no one would find out. In fact, we are surprised it took you so long for the media to pick this up." Even if he told Jocketty and DeWitt, they wouldn't say that it was something they had been concealing.
I'm just sick of over reactions to things like this. Am I worried about Rick's bad press? Sure. Is the bad press warranted? Prob. not, which is why I don't like all of the "sky is falling" reactions.
by Ray Lankford on Sep 7, 2007 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't expect
But minor or not, and apparently opinions vary, it puts the organization in a bad light, as well as Rick.
The Cardinals were clearly unprepared for a situation such as this. Now we'll see how they react.
I don't know who's over-reacting...I certainly didn't feel like I did or have. Just wondering how the organization could've been caught unaware. I don't think it's over-reacting to wonder about something like that.
And, bad press warranted or not, it is what it is. The general public will think he cheated, whether or not it has anything to do with him hitting home runs 3 years after he allegedly took HGH. That's the 24-hour news-cycle society we live in.
by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 7, 2007 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is what they're saying at Bleed Cubbie Blue
Obviously, they have forgotten that Sammy Sosa was a Cub.
F'ing jerkoffs.
by bukowski on Sep 7, 2007 10:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is what they're saying at Bleed Cubbie Blue
Obviously, they have forgotten that Sammy Sosa was a Cub.
F'ing jerkoffs.
by bukowski on Sep 7, 2007 10:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What about Derrek Lee's complete drop off...
by TriplePlay on Sep 7, 2007 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HGH
I expect that at some point in the near future, a lot more names are going to be listed....and I'm sure that Cubs players and Cards players will be among them.
by Fitz on Sep 7, 2007 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excerpt from BCB
Who knows...
... what will come of the current investigations and if we'll ever see the results, but folks, lets not kid ourselves in thinking that Ankiel is a rarity. We may laugh at him, but in all likelyhood, many of the players we root for may currently use or may have used in the past HGH and other illegal substances. So Cub fans can insinuate about Ankiel, but who knows why several Cub pitchers went down the toilet after MLB went after steroids. Or perhaps there is a reason why several Cub players are seeing their home run totals fall as their long drives fall short of the wall.
I want MLB to go after everyone and anyone who used and/or uses, but we need to be prepared to see some of our own fall.
DmL
by dmlichte on Friday, September 7, 2007 at 1:16 AM CT
by yer dog first on Sep 7, 2007 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Take
Of course, no matter what Rick does at this point, he's screwed in the court of public opinion. He's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. He can come out and be honest, and then people will be pissed that he cheated. He can come out and say he didn't, and he's a liar. Once something is published, it pretty much becomes gospel in the public eye (in psychology they call it the primacy effect, the first or last things you hear generally get remembered more, and of the two the first is most powerful generally). It will certainly be interesting to see how this plays out over the next few days, weeks, or whatever.
by redbirdnation8206 on Sep 7, 2007 10:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
its
I admit to no objectivity on this but for crying out loud, unless you have something on him that proves he's breaking the rules now or even then, let the poor kid have his day in the sun. he friggin deserves it.
by satori21 on Sep 7, 2007 10:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i'm not assuming that you didn't
by sdesserman on Sep 7, 2007 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is evidence in how they wrote the story
They bury the more "sympathetic" information that gives context to the possible usage in the middle of the story.
MLB did the opposite. And those are deliberate choices writers make and they are making them for a reason. The first way of doing it is a more sensationalist story, especially given his recent surge in HR and RBI's.
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
huh?
seems pretty straightforward to me.
by sdesserman on Sep 7, 2007 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lame complaints
by Dexter Westbrook on Sep 7, 2007 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
People are also ignoring the fact that Rick
The liklihood that this is all on the up and up is very slim. We can always hope for slim but in reality we will all see what we want to see.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 10:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
and it appears...
by TriplePlay on Sep 7, 2007 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want reality
Mark McGwire was one of the greatest power hitters of all-time. He did remarkable things for the Cardinals, restored order to a franchise that was pretty terrible. He got guys like Edmonds (and subsequently Rolen) to sign hometown discounts to ensure high level of play in this town. The statues out front of the stadium, the miniture ones, they created one for McGwire. Yet where does it sit? In a warehouse in somepart of the town, far away from the ballpark. You mention the name McGwire and Cardinals fans just duck their heads.
Yet, here we are faced with another instance of a guy we cheered so hard for using a substance he had no business taking and we are once again quick to rally around him.
I'm going to continue to cheer for Ankiel, I'm going to continue to hope for his success whether he is on our team or leaves in 2 years. But after 15 years of having the best players be 'tainted' with disappointing revelation after revelation, I'm not going to assume that this isn't just another case.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Big Mac
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said, Hardcore
by cardzfan24 on Sep 7, 2007 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Belief
Just one...
by champion on Sep 7, 2007 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
by Ray Lankford on Sep 7, 2007 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you want reality then
Trying to grasp the future before we have any solid evidence for what that might be is not "reality". I understand the sentiment. But I don't think it's fair to Ankiel. And it does risk perpetuating a feeding frenzy.
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
110 comments
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 10:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How to handle the story
Ankiel been assualted by the media before and was traumatized by that. He can get the facts out in other ways.
And Ankiel doesn't trust the media--he said that outright to a P-D reporter who was trying to write a feel-good story about him. He said in a totally honest way "I don't trust you guys" and "I don't want to be the story". He never asked for those "come back kid" labels to be attached to him and tried to slow them down. I think he was suspicious of what the media would do--build him up and then tear him down.
I'm most concerned about Ankiel's psychological stability. As long as there is no use after the ban, I'd like him to state the facts clearly (and a written statement is fine with me) and get on with his life.
I'm glad he has great teammates to help him, like Edmonds. I'm also glad he has TLR. He's fiercely supportive of his players and will protect him from any sensationalist snooping. I know some won't like that. But I'm glad Tony protects his players when the media goes into a feeding frenzy.
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 11:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
TLR? He turns positively
by MdRedbirdFreak on Sep 7, 2007 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think TLR should handle the story
What Tony will give Ankiel is unwavering support. Tony sees the media as Rick does and so Rick will have someone backing him who has experienced the media in the same way. And Tony has a fighting spirit and a LOT of grit--that can help Rick deal with this whirlwind and go out and play hard on the field. Tony's duty is to manage Rick and to look out for his welfare. Tony's had a lot of practice with rallying the team in the face of adversity.
Not many people seem sufficiently concerned about Ankiel's welfare here. Since we don't have evidence that he did anything illega, I would think we should be most concerned about him. If other evidence comes out that indicates illegal use, we have plenty of time to condemn him.
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I just thought it was...
by templetown on Sep 7, 2007 11:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So many users
Lee
by tiger337 on Sep 7, 2007 11:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Did Walt speak to soon?
by cardsfaninmass on Sep 7, 2007 11:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It is tragic...
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
If Ankiel hasn't been using HGH since 2005, and there's been no evidence so far that he has, then this is such a non issue it's laughable.
If Ankiel hasn't used HGH since the 2005 MLB ban then he should challenge those NYDN writers to provide evidence that he has. He should do so on camera in front of the world. The burden of proof is on those making the accusations.
by champion on Sep 7, 2007 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"tragic"
by DCGreg on Sep 7, 2007 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, with the info we know
If this blows over, that may be remembered by Ankiel as an act of disloyalty and he may be less inclined to stay with the Cards in the future, even though they gave him his chance to come back. The Cards have to be careful how to handle this. If there is nothing more to the story, they don't want to shoot themselves in the foot by trying to look all high and mighty on the issue.
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
by Ray Lankford on Sep 7, 2007 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually, it's a more appropriate use of 'tragic'
by Valatan on Sep 7, 2007 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whether it is rhetorically correct or not,
If they are interested in Ankiel's psychological stability, they shouldn't be labeling him as a "tragic" figure. That is what he has been trying to get away from for all these years. And now it's the Card's organization itself that has reintroduced a label that Ankiel has long dreaded.
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
one last point
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you want to, replace 'hero' with 'protagonist'
by Valatan on Sep 7, 2007 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't trying to be snarky
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but if that was his point
The quote also suggests the team has suffered other ``tragedies'' this year. The things that happened to Hancock and Encarnacion don't fit your definition but they do square with the more common use of "tragedy" as a disastrous event.
I understand what you're saying in a Shakespearean sense, but I don't think that was Jocketty's point.
by DCGreg on Sep 7, 2007 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
time to think here and now
does ankiel struggle?
does he get the whole weekend off?
does he not start until he talks?
by stlcardinalsfang on Sep 7, 2007 11:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
does he get booed?
by TriplePlay on Sep 7, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In Arizona?
by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 7, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well actually
I considered going to these games, but being busy with work, decided not to.
by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 7, 2007 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
knowing TLR
In any case, I would think in his resistance he will continue to play Ankiel as much as he has over the last few weeks.
by cardsfaninmass on Sep 7, 2007 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would assume
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm assuming that the team
I also can imagine that this has made the team mad--I think a lot of players hold a similar view of the media as TLR. And if you've ever noticed Wainwright pitch when he's mad, it seems like it makes him that much tougher. He watched his face closely once when he kept getting terrible calls, and it just seemed to harden his face and harden his resolve.
I hope the whole team focuses their energy into hitting the ball that much harder and pitching that much stronger. That in itself would be a great statment of support of Ankiel.
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
by Dexter Westbrook on Sep 7, 2007 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Truth
-K
by Lawless on Sep 7, 2007 11:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Of Course
by Lawless on Sep 7, 2007 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question.
by champion on Sep 7, 2007 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not my point
by Lawless on Sep 7, 2007 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They couldn't wait til the end
And Rick has been reluctant to be the object of this great story, perhaps in part because he knew what past might come to surface.
And if all was legal, and part of rehab, then why would management get quoted first with a line like "If I'ts true..."
I appreciate the level headed articles from lb, bernie, and leitch. But for Rick, the pressure won't quit. If the next chapter has him defeating the journalists and winning public opinion, I'll be more shocked that watching last nights on field performance.
But one last thing; if they were really serious about the drug issues, they would ban the use of steroids and hormones that end up in all the hot dogs served to our kids at the ballpark! But then, that isn't what this is about.
by Birds on the Bat on Sep 7, 2007 11:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Somehow this new adversity
If the Cardinal brass, Ankiel and Boras stood up and answered the bell via an honest and open press conference it would surprise us all. Most likely we'll see their collective shrugs followed by the "it is what it is" press release.
by Handsome Jimmy on Sep 7, 2007 11:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Most likely
by Cardinal70 on Sep 7, 2007 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Buzz kill is right
Anyway, I said, Ankiel is the feel-good story out of St. Louis this year. He concurred.
Five minutes later, he yells at me, He's taking HGH! I laughed. He says, Seriously, it's on ESPN!
Good gawd. Following sports can really put you through the wringer. It cuts both ways. We had the miracle World Series last year. So I'm not whining. But what a boomerang this is.
by Youneverknow on Sep 7, 2007 11:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It's very much a case of these days
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree
by Rentboy on Sep 7, 2007 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another good article on HGH
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 11:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
there seem
by DCGreg on Sep 7, 2007 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HGH
Even on this forum, I keep seeing the word "cheating" thrown around. HGH wasn't cheating then, per the rules, and by the gist of these articles I'm not sure it would even be cheating now, in the sense that it would boost performance.
It's frustrating and a real shame that this - the reputation of a great ballplayer - is essentially going to come down to how much people choose to inform themselves.
by naterz on Sep 7, 2007 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rick's stats
Before this season, Rick Ankiel had 32 HRs in 451 minor league at-bats. This season in the PCL, he had 32 HRs in 389 ABs. Before this year, he had a HR in every 14 at-bats. This year, he had a HR in every 12 at-bats.
Which again, makes his use of this stuff all the more frustrating.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 11:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i don't think that proves much
by erik on Sep 7, 2007 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reread the post erik
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sigh
you invest such emotion into these players and teams, and stuff like this happens.
MLB cant guarantee these players are clean because they dont blood test, so i am about to give up on the sport. it is a joke. bud selig is a douchebag of the highest order. get rid of him, and start over with a commissioner who has some balls to stand up to the players union and protect us, the fans, from this bullshit happening anymore.
steroids werent even banned by baseball until 2005, that is ludicrous. unacceptable. fuck major league baseball.
we need baseball cleaned up now, for good, or just inject them during the anthem before the game. as it stands now it is ridiculous.
by Rentboy on Sep 7, 2007 11:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Umm, there is no test for HGH anywhere
by bailorg on Sep 7, 2007 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmm
by Rentboy on Sep 7, 2007 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
p.s.
by Rentboy on Sep 7, 2007 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And their "test" is total BS
Yes, there is a blood test for HGH. But because antibodies necessary for the process are in such short supply, virtually no HGH testing is conducted. In addition, the test only detects HGH right after injection so it's impractical for in-competition testing. As a result, there never has been an HGH positive."
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/2006-06-09-hgh-testing_x.htm
by bailorg on Sep 7, 2007 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
umm ok
you sound like a player
by Rentboy on Sep 7, 2007 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
facts
by gdowdy3 on Sep 7, 2007 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what facts?
by Rentboy on Sep 7, 2007 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With this team's
by cardsrul on Sep 7, 2007 12:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Judging by the reactions
I'm sorry but this whole thing to me still reeks of having an ax to grind by somebody or a collected group of people looking to prove something to either the Cardinals origanization and/or their pasionate fans.
I may be wrong... it might just be reporters doing their job but it's my gut feeling on this right now.
But I do agree that the Cardinals origanization needs to try and clear this up ASAP (if possible), before this "sucker punch" turns into a knockout blow.
by KYCards on Sep 7, 2007 12:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ok, so no reliable HGH test then?
by Rentboy on Sep 7, 2007 12:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The key
by rockin redbird on Sep 7, 2007 12:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
That's the point I've been making all morning...
by champion on Sep 7, 2007 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good lord, what's the issue?
by sdrone on Sep 7, 2007 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong Premise.
by champion on Sep 7, 2007 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The "issue", RR
by cardsrul on Sep 7, 2007 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well--
by rockin redbird on Sep 7, 2007 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question...
by champion on Sep 7, 2007 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my take
by truemun12 on Sep 7, 2007 12:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
sorry
wasn't attacking any of you, i am just frustrated in MLB.
if they cant detect HGH, then why is rodney harrison suspended from the NFL?
it just seems like the NFL is farther ahead in these issues than MLB, and the NFL is an infant compared to MLB in terms of how long they have been around.
the difference in the leagues to me, is that the NFL commissioner is the boss of footbnall, and in baseball the player's union is. i just dont see baseball getting any better until this changes.
by Rentboy on Sep 7, 2007 12:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Rodney
by paCardsFan on Sep 7, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference
by Valatan on Sep 7, 2007 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
because the NFL is filled...
by TriplePlay on Sep 7, 2007 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Merriman
Why is this such a big deal in Baseball but not in Hockey or NFL or anywhere else?(Except cycling)
by Calhoun on Sep 7, 2007 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't he also
by chuckb on Sep 7, 2007 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The NFL is farther ahead?
The NFL lost all their perspective in that case, by even giving a damn what Wade Wilson did to improve his sex life. Bud's a moron but Roger Goodell proved to me that he, at least, wants to make it a competition.
by chuckb on Sep 7, 2007 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
makes me wonder...
if the problem has been as widespread as i've been led to believe in the last few years by all of these stories, well, i'm equally tempted to just put my fingers in my ears and hum loudly until it goes away, or to become even more cynical than i naturally am as a modern 23 year old and say "whatever, f*** it".
whatever ankiel did (and at this point i think it's reasonable to believe it was something at least a little shady) i'd be willing to forgive if he just explained himself, and made it clear that it was in the past. until there is some real action taken to solve the problem, what else can we as fans do? major league baseball in general has really been dropping the ball on us for years, and it pisses me off that i grew up as a fan in an era dominated by such hypocrisy.
by mattybobo on Sep 7, 2007 1:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
rockin redbird
no matter what happens, ankiel cant say, test my blood and im clean? there is no test to even clear him? so what does the story do but damage him without any way to defend himself if he is clean now. not to mention the points you already made.
this stuff makes my head spin.
i would like to see rick ankiel give a sample of his blood to a lab, and when we do have a test for hgh someday, he can have it tested and clear himself.
by Rentboy on Sep 7, 2007 1:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
likely
by gthedamned on Sep 7, 2007 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If there
by rockin redbird on Sep 7, 2007 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
First Take on espn2
also, they are talking about MLB suspending him, but if he was taking it before it was banned, how can they? honestly, this is about it for me for baseball..
oh, and, you guys accuse me of attacking someone for saying they sound like a player, yet a lot of you are like "Umm" and "good lord" in snarky snidey sarcastic ways in your replies..baiting? um, good lord..
by Rentboy on Sep 7, 2007 1:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They have tests
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lets lighten the mood
http://www.mamalogues.com/2007/09/what_i_know_about_sports_could.html
One quick teaser:
I know this about local sports:
1) Tony La Russa is the most hardcore man in St. Louis. One of my favorite things to do is watch the press try to conduct a post-game conference when he's all ticked off.
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 1:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Still waiting.....
Walt and company could use this as an opportunity to get ahead of the story. We all know that ain't gonna happen and the story is growing by the hour.
by Handsome Jimmy on Sep 7, 2007 1:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Real Topic for Debate
Is it wrong for an athlete to take HGH even if his sport's administration has not banned it and he takes the legal steps to aquire the hormones?
To help cover our cardinal loyalty, ask yourself this question:
How would I feel if Adam Dunn was found to have taken HGH in 2003, but only in 2003, and he took the appropiate legal steps to aquire the hormone?
Leave out the assumptions that he may have taken the drug even after it was banned and other questions that the reporters will ask him multiple times.
by stl3bagger on Sep 7, 2007 1:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
agree
Knowing the facts so far I see it as a non issue. Did Ankiel know HGH was going to be seen as an evil drug when he took it? who knows. It was not illegal at the time.
I have no problem with Ankiel experimenting with HGH but I really hope he has not touched the stuff since the start of the 2005 season.
It was not illegal at the time. It would be like creatine becoming illegal later. A lot of people took it but they did not know it would be considered illegal. You can buy it legally over the counter. It sounds like Ankiel got his HGH legally.
by ICbirdfan on Sep 7, 2007 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone have ESPN Insider?
by saladdays on Sep 7, 2007 2:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It was posted on the stltoday forums
You can read the full post in the link but here is the best part of his blog:
"Hmm, let's see here ... he stopped receiving the banned substance before it was banned? And if true, "obviously it would be very tragic"? Gosh, I don't know. Unfortunate, sure. Inconvenient, absolutely. But it's very tragic when a professional athlete gains the same edge that so many of his colleagues have gained? And probably won't be punished?
No, today the Rick Ankiel Story isn't nearly as spiffy as it was just yesterday. But I have to tell you, I've got a really hard time getting worked up over this news."
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MLB requests to meet with Ankiel
by Calhoun on Sep 7, 2007 2:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is good news
by KYCards on Sep 7, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I'm glad
by chuckb on Sep 7, 2007 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Though I'm a non-fan of Boras,
by MdRedbirdFreak on Sep 7, 2007 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not only that
by chuckb on Sep 7, 2007 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good
by rockin redbird on Sep 7, 2007 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree Completely Rockin
Pretty much everyone on ESPN are saying he is a performance-enhancer BUT THERE IS NO PROOF HGH ENHANCES ANYTHING!!!!!
I hate ESPN their trying to spin it
And their making Ankiel sound as bad as Glaus but he isnt.
Glaus took steriods when it was Banned in the Majors Ankiel took HGH when it was not banned so they shouldnt put them both in the same boat.
The media`s blowing this way out of proportion.
by Calhoun on Sep 7, 2007 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kind of a bummer
by zolak16 on Sep 7, 2007 2:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I blame Barr-oid for all of this
by RosevilleRedbird on Sep 7, 2007 2:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
why not blame mcguire/sosa?
he sees mcguire and sosa cheating, hitting ridiculous amounts of homeruns, and taking the spotlight, when he believed he was the better player.
it looks like barry said, fine, stupid fans only care about the longball, ill cheat like the other guys and hit even more homeruns than them.
noone cared about pujols nationaly until he hit a ton of homeruns to start the year in his 5th or 6th season..even after an mvp he wasnt really national news. i see albert much like barry, better hitters than the guys who are just HR guys.
i blame MLB, mcguire, sosa, and the fans for being ignorant and only caring about HR's.
by Rentboy on Sep 7, 2007 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pirates release GM
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Guess he couldn't do any more damage
by Dexter Westbrook on Sep 7, 2007 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Timmy Kurkjian on
by cardsrul on Sep 7, 2007 2:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Unrelated actually baseball news
When looking at the Mark Mulder situation, he says that his armslot hadn't been that high ever since the surgery.
So, when he started 'rehabbing' after the surgery, did he see physical therapists whose goal would be to restore full range of motion in the shoulder/arm and allow him to live a full and healthy life? Or did he start seeing baseball people whose goal was to return his arm to an ability that would allow him to pitch?
Because, I gotta say, I would think that 8 months removed from surgery, he should atleast be able to reach up and screw in a light bulb. From all indications, he can't even move his arm that high.
Instead of rebuilding mechanics, I would have preferred rehabbing the joint.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 2:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you seeing news
by sdrone on Sep 7, 2007 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was in one of the news stories about his rehab
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Criteria
- full, pain-free shoulder range of motion.
- at least 80% gross strength of the non-involved side.
by silent_bob on Sep 7, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rotator Cuff Surgery
by yer dog first on Sep 7, 2007 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boy, I'm sure glad we didn't trade for him like
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More from the article
quote:
Former World Series MVP and four-time All Star Troy Glaus, currently a third baseman for the Toronto Blue Jays, received multiple shipments of performance-enhancing steroids through an illicit distribution network, according to information obtained by SI.
A source in Florida with knowledge of the client list of Signature Pharmacy, an Orlando-based compound pharmacy, alleges that between September 2003 and May 2004, multiple shipments of nandrolone and testosterone were sent to Glaus at a Corona, Calif., address that traces to the player. Though the information only pertains to receipt and not actual use of steroids, both nandrolone and testosterone were on Major League Baseball's banned list at the time.
Glaus, then with the Angels, missed much of the 2003 season with a tear in his right rotator cuff and frayed labrum and underwent season-ending shoulder surgery after attempting a comeback in 2004.
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cardinal HMO?
Therefore, regardless of club rules, league policy, or federal law, it still does not seem ordinary for athletes to be picking up prescriptions in the manner described. And again, the first quote from the organization is from the GM starting of with "If it's true..." does not bode well.
It would be nice for this story to go away with one swing of the bat, or just by inserting the next victim of the scandal, but it won't.
So when does Speezio come back?
by Birds on the Bat on Sep 7, 2007 2:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
well the next victim of the scandal...
Troy Glaus.
by TriplePlay on Sep 7, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Next Victim of the Scandal
I have tix to the Blue Jays game at Detroit next week. Maybe won't get to see him play. Too bad.
by Birds on the Bat on Sep 7, 2007 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When this post gets up around 600 comments
by azruavatar on Sep 7, 2007 2:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not sure if we will reach it
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hot Damn
What kind of rabble rousing do I have to do to get this to 600.
I think Rick Ankiel also ate babies while taking HGH in 2004!
by azruavatar on Sep 7, 2007 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was also
by cardsrul on Sep 7, 2007 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No he wasn't
by RosevilleRedbird on Sep 7, 2007 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
pretty sure
by azruavatar on Sep 7, 2007 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rick actually was the one who created the false
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He assassinated Archduke Ferdinand
by azruavatar on Sep 7, 2007 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he was also the master mind of the
by RosevilleRedbird on Sep 7, 2007 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And was the intended recipient of
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am such moron
by RosevilleRedbird on Sep 7, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man...

by Alxfritz on Sep 7, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm amazed that
Only with the 2007 St Louis Cardinals, I guess. Weirdest damn year ever.
by Alxfritz on Sep 7, 2007 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
by RosevilleRedbird on Sep 7, 2007 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This needs to be
by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 7, 2007 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you win
by Birds on the Bat on Sep 7, 2007 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm still here
by Solanus on Sep 7, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This may sound odd but
Best wishes with the new employment!
by azruavatar on Sep 7, 2007 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and if you steal comment number 666
(*I don't know what the internet equivalent of a knife is but I'll use it.)
by azruavatar on Sep 7, 2007 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
your priorities are clearly out of whack
by RosevilleRedbird on Sep 7, 2007 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gammons on Espns front page from mike and mike
i dunno well see what more happens with this..
to me this whole issue will become you say potatoe i saw po tat oe.. or you say yes i say no
by punchinjudy on Sep 7, 2007 2:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Peter Gammons on radio
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/player?context=audio&id=3008660
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Potatoe"?
by Mr Clean on Sep 7, 2007 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So guilty or not
by punchinjudy on Sep 7, 2007 3:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
oh pleeeez
how come people are always willing to make snide comments about players from other teams, but when the evidence is pretty overwhelming for one of their guys, they pretend he is innocent or make excuses for him?
josh hamilton (.288/.367/.547, 18 HR, 45 RBI, 48 R in 285 AB) is much more comparable to Hobbs (and the reason he has been called Hobbs all season). i'd take a feel good story about a guy who doesn't play baseball for most of four years and then succeeds in the majors as a rule 5 gamble over a cheater.
i really wish the whole PED thing would just go away and people would stop dredging up dirty laundry.
by Daedalus on Sep 7, 2007 3:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So wait
I'm not defending Rick but that is some backwards logic.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so hes for mcgwire or against Big mac
by punchinjudy on Sep 7, 2007 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one is defending the use
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't think Hamilton used PEDs?
by TriplePlay on Sep 7, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hamilton v Ankiel for the title
- Rick & Roy were both teenage pitching phenoms, good enough to strike out the best players in the game. Josh was always a hitter.
- Their early careers were derailed, mainly due to weapon related injuries (gunshot for Roy, knife wound to Matheny indirectly led to Rick's implosion). Hamilton lost himself in drugs.
- They both finally stuck in the majors as hitters.
- Both were held out of the starting lineup (benched for Hobbs, in Memphis for Ankiel) for seemingly baseless reasons. Josh made the Reds out of spring training.
- Both were "permanently" installed into the lineup after a (possibly) career-ending injury to the incumbent.
- Both lifted their respective teams out of their losing ways. Cincinnati has been mediocre or worse all year.
by Solanus on Sep 7, 2007 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
love it when people voice opinions
Cincinnati has been mediocre or worse all year.
Then what does that say about the Cardinals, who have only won 5 more games than Cincy?
i guess we can call ankiel "The Unnatural," eh?
by Daedalus on Sep 7, 2007 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Don't remember the movie that well
Anyway, it doesn't disprove what I stated. And now, with the HGH issues swirling and the sudden downturn in Ankiel's/the team's performance, I think it is even more apparent that the similarities are too strong to ignore. Or to continue to think of Hamilton as the real-world incarnation of Malamud's character.
by Solanus on Sep 11, 2007 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a minute
by chuckb on Sep 7, 2007 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
or even that he broke the rules
by tdawg on Sep 7, 2007 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish you could say this more loudly
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Did.
by champion on Sep 7, 2007 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless you have a smoking gun
by Red Blazer on Sep 7, 2007 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OSTL
by punchinjudy on Sep 7, 2007 3:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
doesn't your last sentence
by tdawg on Sep 7, 2007 3:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the timmy k post
by punchinjudy on Sep 7, 2007 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
jocketty's quote is garbage
by royalsreview on Sep 7, 2007 3:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I just realized
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no way
that quote was probably gathered at the very last minute --- a reporter calls just before deadline and says, "we're going to press with this story tomorrow. we're holding space for a comment from the cardinal organization. here's your opportunity to give it to us."
by lboros on Sep 7, 2007 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Based on..
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cards Respone:
"Blindsided by a published report that pitcher-turned-outfielder Rick Ankiel received a year's supply of Human Growth Hormone from an Orlando, Fla., facility in 2004, the Cardinals withheld any official comment until Friday afternoon.
"We just learned of it late last night and if there is going to be a comment at all, it will be at the ballpark," Cardinals director of media relations Brian Bartow said. "
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 3:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hmm
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How long has Ankiel/Boras known
I doubt very much they called around yesterday, after the game. So, the Cardinals/Rick have had time to get ahead of this story and chose not to.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 3:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
they probably did call after the game
by lboros on Sep 7, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess that is possible
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the only facts they needed to check
they could hold a space in the story for a comment from a cardinal official, and they wouldn't place a call to get that comment until the very last minute ---- otherwise they're tipping off the subject of their story, potentially losing the scoop.
by lboros on Sep 7, 2007 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not the article I referred to earlier
"Human Growth Hormone (HGH or GH) has little to no performance enhancing-benefits."
"But most clinical studies suggest that HGH won't help an athlete at all"
I still don't think Bud gives a damn, b/c it's all about image w/ him, but it seems to be true.
by chuckb on Sep 7, 2007 3:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Linked already
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The article from BP
"Studies have shown that HGH supplementation will increase muscle mass; but there is little, if any, evidence of strength gains in these studies"
HGH, does not enhance a player's performance...period. Bud may still suspend Ankiel, if he can, but Ankiel doesn't hit homers now b/c he took HGH 3 years ago. It wouldn't matter if he took it 3 minutes ago or 3 days ago. It has nothing to do w/ Ankiel's (or anybody else's) athletic performance.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5881
by chuckb on Sep 7, 2007 3:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
HGH Should Be Available to All
As for the 'ethics' of Ankiel taking HGH. Why should it matter that it is an injection? Let's consider the benefits. HGH may have certain anti-ageing effects which might lead to faster recovery times from injury (the evidence in support of this factor is weak at best). HGH probablly does contribute to a slight increase in lean muscle mass (nothing on the order of what testosterone manages). But what else helps lean muscle mass? A good, nutrious diet. A good sleep cycle. A daily exercise and strenthening regimen. Viatmins. All of these likely contribute more to increasing 'lean muscle mass' than HGH. Yet no one gets their shorts in a wad because Brian Urlacher spends 3 hours a day in the weight room.
These are all performance-enhancing techniques. Why should we care what the form is? It isn't an 'unfair' advantage if everyone has the option of taking it anymore than viatimin supplements are. It isn't something we should have government stand in the way of when the side-effects are minimal to non-existant. Heck, the best argument for regulating HGH use is that the evidence on the benefits isn't as strong as one would like to see given the expense associated with it (though that expense would go down considerably w/o the FDA in the way). The fact of the matter is that there shouldn't be anything wrong with taking HDH for whatever you want to take it for. So I have trouble getting worked up over Ankiel taking HGH. I should be able to take HGH just because I'd like to shed a few pounds and look good for the ladies. Ankiel should be able to take it because it might help him recover from injuries, or help him become a better athlete. And so should anyone else in baseball. That's the real scandal here. That there are forces in society determined to lock us in to the past and deny us the technological progress that will lead to healthier, longer, and more enjoyable lives. In or out of sports. D.GOOCH
by GOOCH24 on Sep 7, 2007 3:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
100% Agree.
by champion on Sep 7, 2007 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anybody remember ...
That was big news in March.
And that, too, did pass.
by Urban Pawnee on Sep 7, 2007 3:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I just want to say......
That is all.
by TriplePlay on Sep 7, 2007 3:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Homeruns numbers
Cubs Homeruns
- 235
- 194 (-41)
- 166 (-28)
- 114 (-52)
- 214
- 170 (-44)
- 184 (+14)
- 126 (-58)
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 4:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
most teams....
by TriplePlay on Sep 7, 2007 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then what is the Cubs excuse?
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wind always
by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 7, 2007 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
answer...
by GOOCH24 on Sep 7, 2007 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe that the answer
Or maybe its the wind.
by cardzfan24 on Sep 7, 2007 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2005
Edmonds though had the biggest drop off from 42 to 29 while still playing in 142 games.
Reggie Sanders and Larry Walker matched their previous season for the most part, so John Mabry and others between them account for 1 or 2 apeice in HR drop off, as a team that really can compound.
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also...
by GOOCH24 on Sep 7, 2007 4:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In the final 25 games or so
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 7, 2007 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
First comment
You'll have to forgive me if i repeat what others have said already, but i can't take the time to read all 300+ responses lol.
To me, the only way this story really matters:
A. If it's confirmed that he took HGH after they were banned, which so far is not the case.
B. If the cardinals continue their obnoxious policy of suspicion and secrecy. In this case, I'd be more annoyed that the people running my favorite team have an aversion to honesty than I would be that a player may have taken a particular substance years ago, especially when the substance had yet to be banned. I sincerely I hope I end up wrong about this, but if no admission comes forth from Ankiel, the cardinals organization will be the reason why.
Also of note is the fact that steroids were banned long before testing began in earnest. So based on current evidence, I have no particular problem with condemning those players who took roids around the time Rick allegedly took Growth, while still maintaining my support of Ankiel. We can't go punishing people in hindsight when a rule changes. For that matter, we tend to lump all the performance enhancing substances together, (for the purposes of evaluating inflated stats this MAY be feasible) but this simply adds to the confusion when attempting to determine violation against federal law or mlb rules, which are explicit, let alone when trying to determine ethics (a far more grey area).
by kalmavet on Sep 7, 2007 4:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
cortizone injections
by madding on Sep 7, 2007 4:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is HGH a steroid?
Reports: Ankiel, Glaus received steroids.(AP)
The actual article itself doesn't say that... just the name of the link.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070907/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_steroids
by redbird2006in on Sep 7, 2007 4:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
by champion on Sep 7, 2007 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
unless they changed the headline
Then they give a paragraph to each detailing what each received. Bit tricky maybe, but not what you said.
by Birds on the Bat on Sep 7, 2007 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel
The experiment went very well until, as we all know, the wiring in the left arm short-circuited on a fall day a few years back.
Scientists were quite optimistic about their latest version until the news of yesterday which evidently is a result of some creative usage of Mark McGwire DNA.
ps - they're working on a shortstop too
by Hinkster on Sep 7, 2007 4:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Press Conference?
Does anybody have more knowledge or information about this? Will it be televised on FSN?
by udcardinals on Sep 7, 2007 4:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
According to Bernie:
Ankiel, Jocketty will speak at the ballpark in Arizona before tonite's game... don't know what time....
I am told by another source that it will be a "casual" setting - in the dugout.
Not sure why TLR isn't a part of it.
Don't know if Rick will answer questions... or how many.
--B
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Watching Around the Horn...
D.GOOCH
by GOOCH24 on Sep 7, 2007 5:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Answer
Jay Mariotti--dismissive smirk and wave of hand, act condescending
Tim Cowlishaw--bring up Nascar or hockey
Bill Plaschke--contrary opinion
by cardzfan24 on Sep 7, 2007 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they are not the dumbest
by RosevilleRedbird on Sep 7, 2007 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Around The Horn
(No offense to monkeys.)
PTI is the only pundit show worth its weight in crap.
by Alxfritz on Sep 7, 2007 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Edit---
Kind of like taking dog crap and putting it in a shiny new wrapper.
by cardzfan24 on Sep 7, 2007 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dog crap in a wrapper
by punchinjudy on Sep 7, 2007 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Get the patent
Millions...think of all the HGH we could get!!!
by cardzfan24 on Sep 7, 2007 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i actually have shoulder problems right now
he got hsi medical license in grenada..he looks like side hsow bob but reminds me of that doc in simpsons in the new paper..haha
by punchinjudy on Sep 7, 2007 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
said that to say maybe HGH
by punchinjudy on Sep 7, 2007 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't say they're dumber
Who is dumber -- the people who do the show and get paid handsomely for it, or the people who give it its ratings?
by Dexter Westbrook on Sep 7, 2007 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this really pisses me off
that the Cards & Rick as of 5pm est have said nothing. if i was them like Lboros said i would have been on stage at 9am nipping this story i the butt. saying yes i took it when it was not against MLB ruls, and stopped when i found out it was going to be added to the banned list. but we all know they wont say a word. Tony will circle the waggons and they will just say its a case of the east coast media out to get the Cards. that does not matter. because it's Rick Ankiel a no name paper in Idaho could have wrote the story and it still would be all over the news.
it pisses me off that the nydn headline reads "Cardinal Sin". as if what he did was wrong, when in fact its not so much that its wrong to take HGH, but that its not all that right to be taking HGH. its still falls in that gray area. the fact that they paint him as a cheater i feel is very reckless on thier part. as the facts now stand, as of now he's not a cheater. as much as those in the know this moring said reporters dont have ulterior motives when telling a story like this, i'm sorry i just dont by that. when they splash "Cardinal Sin" on the front page, you cant tell me the paper isnt out to knock Rick down a peg or two. and of course in turn help them sell papers. because when you get right down to it, that's all they care about. selling papers & making money. damn the conceques as long as they make a buck.
i have no problem with the story being told. but i do have major issues with how the nydn is telling the story. obviously we as fans need to know this. i feel they went to far when the head line reads "Cardinal Sin". that pisses me off.
the nydn has ruined Rick Ankiel's good name. of course you can argue he did it to himself by taking HGH in the first place. and that's a valid argument. but as the facts stand now, he did nothing wrong. yet try telling that to the world now after the nydn spalshed "Cardinal Sin" all over the front page.
call me nieve, call me child like or gullible. i assure you my Cardinal Red sunglasses are off when it comes to all things Rick Ankiel. early this morning because of this story something was stolen from me. something that gave me hope. something that helped me get through the day of caring for a dying parent. something that made me feel good and just made me all the more prouder to be a St. Louis Cardinal fan. and now that is gone. and that really pisses me off.
now where are those damn puppies?
by gdm426 on Sep 7, 2007 5:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This reveals an interesting double standard
Situation A:
* Young man has incredible baseball talent, but is troubled. He turns to illegal self-destructive drugs.
* He makes an improbable comeback.
* People find out, but praise him winning his battle against his self-inflicted addiction and don't care that the drugs were illegal.
Situation B:
* Young man has incredible baseball talent, but is troubled. He turns to illegal self-improving drugs.
* He makes an improbable comeback.
* People find out, and suddenly all his accomplishments are nullified and people call for blood because the drugs were illegal.
I don't claim that Ankiel is innocent. I'm just pointing out that people don't care about the law, they care about people cheating. They don't even care if the guy turned to cheating in a sympathetic situation -- we have sympathy for a self-destructive response, but not a self-improving one. It's an interesting double-standard, and it's dumb for anyone to really cite the law because that's clearly not really all that important, at least to most people. It's just a convenient support for their argument.
That said, I hope it turns out that Ankiel had a prescription and this all blows over.
by mojowo11 on Sep 7, 2007 5:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting...
by cardzfan24 on Sep 7, 2007 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a point of clarification
by mojowo11 on Sep 7, 2007 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your
by rockin redbird on Sep 7, 2007 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not exactly
What people care about is this notion of "cheating," which is only loosely based on the rules, but really has more to do with the idea of someone putting something in their body to give them an advantage. We don't cry for blood when Hamilton takes illegal substances because they don't make him better -- in fact, we don't really care at all, except to express our sympathy. Who cares that he admits to repeatedly breaking serious drug laws? At least he's okay, and hey, he's a great story.
But god for-freaking-bid anyone takes anything to make them unnaturally stronger/healthier/whatever! After all, these are serious drug laws, right? And people who break serious drug laws should be punished by the powers that be!
Or not. Just depends on whether it's heroin or HGH.
by mojowo11 on Sep 7, 2007 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Three points...
- the story already says that Ankiel had a perscription.
- it is very unlikely that Ankiel was taking HGH in order to improve his performance. The likely explanation was that he took it to promote healing.
- HGH is not a performance enhancer. It is stupidly treated as a performance enhancer. Baseball (and other sports) reflexively banned it as a performance enhancer. The problem is, there's no scientific evidence it is a performance enhancer. And indeed, the scientific evidence suggest it is not.
by GOOCH24 on Sep 7, 2007 5:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Isn't HGH taken as a secondary drug
by Valatan on Sep 7, 2007 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A little humor
This guy started listing all the reasons why Rolen, Edmonds, and Pujols were all on the juice. To prove his point, he listed numbers showing Albert's homerun totals...trying to prove they were dropping since MLB banned steroids.
The problem? He listed Albert's double totals....it took a couple posters before he was corrected.
Tehehehe. Sorry for the digression and for the long set up, but it made me laugh.
by cardzfan24 on Sep 7, 2007 6:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
TLR on dibs and kennedy XM show
Why the orgination loves him..hard worker, never in this period did he ever make excuses..
Rick as a player..if u saw a guy takin bp and didnt knwo who it was ud be like this guy can be an everyday guy, but u find out its rick then ur like no way he can do it(if ur a scout)..really likes him.
by punchinjudy on Sep 7, 2007 6:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Listening to Bernie on 1380...
Also, there is a poster on the P-D forum which says he heard this piece as well and claims the following: "Yes, I just heard this on XM... Said Rick recieved nothing from this Pharmacy. Never heard of it and will deny all. Now what I didnt understand is whether he will deny getting anything from this pharmacy or whether he will blanketly deny all PHD usage. I heard a few excepts at the top of the hour and not the full statement."
Interesting turn. Could get uglier... unless he'd actually be telling the truth by denying it all.
by AndyB83 on Sep 7, 2007 6:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He better not deny this
by cardzfan24 on Sep 7, 2007 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe it was
by punchinjudy on Sep 7, 2007 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
isn't that pharmacy one that used people's names
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
correction--I think it was the clinic
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently...
by AndyB83 on Sep 7, 2007 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i heard the boras call in on xm radio
- ankiel and the cardinals will state he had no dealings with the pharmacy
- the media should not be bringing up something that happended in a timeframe where these things were (a) legal and (b) prescribed by a doctor
- the nypost contacted him for a statement yesterday. boras asked if he could be given the opportunity to speak to ankiel about the allegations before it was published. the told him no...they called him during the game when ankiel was hitting the bombs and knocking in the 7 rbis.
- that the media has a great avenue of getting stuff like this out there with only hearsay proof which damages people and they (the media) are protected by the first amendment.
boras called in on "the show" with kevin kennedy and rob dibble. kennedy and dibble wholeheartedly agreed with every statement boras made.
by icanplaycenterfield on Sep 7, 2007 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This could get a lot worse
by chuckb on Sep 7, 2007 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yikes
by nycardfan on Sep 7, 2007 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How could you prove ...
It will be interesting if they stick to the line, "Rick had no dealings with the pharmacy," and don't address the underlying allegation that he used HGH, whether or not it was prescribed and whether or not it wasn't a banned substance at the time.
by Dexter Westbrook on Sep 7, 2007 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The argument I've been using all day
What do you do?
Ankiel could have just as easily used Roids or any other banned substance. But he didn't.
by stltrav09 on Sep 7, 2007 6:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The three crucial questions about Ankiel
- Did Ankiel use HGH after baseball banned the use of HGH? If not, he did not violate any rules of MLB. The NY Daily News report indicates that the HGH shipments for Ankiel stopped before MLB banned HGH.
- Did Ankiel use HGH without a doctor's prescription and supervision? The NY Daily News reports that he did have a doctor's prescription and the HGH was shipped to a clinic, not to Ankiel directly. This seems to indicate that Ankiel complied with the law and that the HGH was part of his treatment to acclerate his recovery from two arm surgeries. (1988 and 1990 amendments to the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FDCA) make off-label distribution or provision of GH to treat aging or age-related diseases illegal in the U.S.)
- WIll the media and the fans judge Ankiel justly and fairly? If Ankiel confirms that he has violated no laws or rules, and there is no evidence he did, then the only remaining question is whether or not the media and fans will refrain from taking the role of judge and jury or condemn him with prejudice.
Ankiel to date has not even been accused of any wrongdoing. He received HGH with a doctor's prescription. The doctor is not reported to be accused of any wrongdoing. Until the investigators bring forth charges or allegations against Ankiel or his doctor, the only just and fair position is to refrain from prejudging and condeming Ankiel. If Ankiel has violated any drug laws, then no doubt former U.S. Senate majority leader George Mitchell, leader of the Commissioner's investigation into drug abuse among MLB players, will go after him, as he should, swiftly. The same applies to Barry Bonds. The same applied to Pete Rose when he was found to be involved in gambling on baseball games.
We'd all be best off if the public would leave the investigation of Ankiel's case to due process under Constitutional law and the rules of MLB, by proper authorities. The alternatives some would seem to prefer, mob rule and vigilante committees, have have often led to injustices against innocent men. Let's not take that risk.
If your reputation were at stake, if speculation and scrutiny of your conduct were going on in public, even though no allegations of wrongdoing had been raised against you, how would you feel?
by CardsWin on Sep 7, 2007 6:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The steroids Perspective given by Monty python
by punchinjudy on Sep 7, 2007 6:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Game thread up looks liek no #666 here
by punchinjudy on Sep 7, 2007 7:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
giving up so soon
by mattyfrommo on Sep 8, 2007 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Press conference is on ESPN.com
by StLHugo on Sep 7, 2007 8:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs



















