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can kennedy bounce back?

few howls of outrage arose when the cardinals signed adam kennedy last winter. few shouts of joy went out either; it wasn't that type of a signing. kennedy seemed like a sensible, low-risk acquisition who'd stabilize a position that had lacked a regular tenant for most of four years --- since the middle of 2003, when fernando vina went out with an injury. since then hart, womack, grud'k, luna, miles, and belliard had taken turns at the position, and junior smiley had played himself out of a crack at it; kennedy was expected to be as good as the best of that lot and far superior to the worst.

hah.

the other day, when i compared scott rolen's actual performance to his expected performance, i estimated the deficit at about 30 runs, or 3 wins. kennedy's corresponding deficit this year was nearly as large --- 21 runs, or 2 wins (and that's adjusted for playing time). but the kennedy slump seems to have come from out of nowhere; he's never had a season remotely like this one, whereas rolen in 2007 essentially returned to his 2005 level of production. while we didn't expect scotty to wash out, we at least knew there was a certain risk of his shoulder acting up again. kennedy, by contrast, has been a model of consistency throughout his career. it was thought that, at 31, he might be susceptible to a slight downturn, but not a soul predicted that he'd be one of the worst position players in the majors.

out of curiosity, i checked out the list of comparables at kennedy's baseball-reference.com page, and out popped a familiar name: tony pena, the catcher the cardinals traded for right before the 1987 season. paid a pretty penny for him, too --- two of the guys they gave up, andy van slyke and mike lavailliere, were regulars on the pirates' division winners of 1990-1992. but pena was the best player at his position in the league --- a perennial all-star who provided gold-glove defense and an above-league-average bat. he was 30 years old when he came to st louis, a year younger than kennedy; compare the two seasons (pena's numbers are pro-rated to equal kennedy's 279 at-bats; he actually batted 384 times):

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB | AVG OBP SLG OPS+
kennedy 2007 279 27 61  9  1  3 18 22 | .219 .282 .290 50
pena 1987 279 30 60  9  3  4 33 27 | .214 .281 .307 55

the 1987 cardinals won the pennant despite pena's performance, so it doesn't particularly irritate. the following year pena bounced back partway, posting a .263 / .308 / .372 line (94 ops+, above average for a catcher), and he stayed at about the same level for 1989, then went off to the american league for the last 8 years of his career.

interestingly enough, a couple of the other high-ranked comparables on kennedy's list also crashed in their age 31 season. remember now, the comps aren't updated until the end of the season, so this list reflects the guys most similar to kennedy through age 30 --- they were already similar before this year's slump. the #1 guy on the list, johnny logan, played shortstop for the milwaukee braves in the 1950s; his number 2 comp is julio lugo, who signed a big-bucks contract last winter and, dollar for dollar, has stunk at least as badly as kennedy this season. comparisons, again pro-rated for 279 at-bats:

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB | AVG OBP SLG OPS+
kennedy 2007 279 27 61  9  1  3 18 22 | .219 .282 .290  50
logan 1958 279 27 63 11  0  5 27 21 | .226 .286 .326  68
lugo 2007 279 35 66 18  1  4 37 23 | .239 .296 .355  70

logan bounced right back at age 32 with one of his best seasons ever --- .291 / .369 / .411 (115 ops+); it remains to be seen what trajectory lugo will follow. now warming to the inquiry, i decided to search the lahmann database for seasons that were similar to kennedy's, to see out how those players fared the following year. i set the following parameters:

at-bats: at least 250
average: .225 or less
slugging: .340 or less
then i eliminated seasons that took place at the very beginning or end of the guy's career, and seasons by players who were never any good to begin with; that got rid of about 90 percent of the list. of the remainder, i sifted through to find the guys most comparable in age and skill set to kennedy. there weren't a lot of those, frankly; these seem like the only ones that might apply even remotely:

ray knight, 1984: .237 / .279 / .299 in 371 at-bats
like kennedy, knight was 31 years old when he had his awful year. he was better than kennedy in his 20s (two all-star appearances and a top-5 mvp finish), and there was a sizeable ballpark factor involved in the collapse of knight's bat --- the previous year he'd moved to the astrodome, one of the most hitter-unfriendly ballparks ever. in the midst of his 1984 slump knight got traded to the mets, for whom he played even worse the following year (.218 / .252 / .328). but knight did have one good season left in him --- 1986, when he approached his career highs in batting, obp, homers, and rbis. knight was the guy who scored the winning run when the ball rolled through billy buckner's legs in game 6 of the '86 series; in game 7 he hit a solo homer to break a 7th-inning tie and propel the mets to the world title.

tony bernazard, 1984: .221 / .290 / .287 in 439 at-bats
bernazard was 27 years old and in his 4th full year as a big-leaguer; the previous 3 seasons he'd been an above-average hitter (tony la russa himself made bernazard a regular) with a good glove at 2b, ie a very valuable player. he changed teams / ballparks in 1984 and posted an ops+ of 60, but turned in the two peak years of his career in 1985-86. he was significantly younger than kennedy, but otherwise a reasonably similar case.

vance law, 1986: .225 / .298 / .325 in 360 at-bats
interestingly enough, he was tony bernazard's teammate under la russa on the early-1980s white sox. law was with montreal by 1986, 29 years old and coming off a career year (123 ops+). primarily a 3d baseman for la russa, he shifted to 2d at montreal. after his 1986 slump (ops+ of 73), he returned to above-average levels of production in his age-30 and -31 seasons.

vinny castilla 2000: .221 / .254 / .308 in 331 at-bats
castilla is not very comparable to kennedy; entirely different type of player, one whose success was highly ballpark-dependent. but he slumped at a similar age to kennedy (32) and, like kennedy, after switching teams and leagues --- it was vinny's first year with the devil rays. his ops+ in 2000 was just 42, but he returned to league-average status the following year after being traded back to the nl. at age 34 he faltered badly again, but then settled in as a useful player for another 3 years.

in all of these cases (and in the pena and logan cases above), the player's dreadful year did not signal an irreversible loss of skill; all the guys in question came to back to have good seasons. i suspect that the same will be true for adam kennedy. he prob'y was playing on a bad knee all year; he also had switched leagues and didn't know the pitchers. while the prospect of opening next year with kennedy at 2b seems rather depressing at the moment, he has a reasonable chance of surprising us in a pleasant way in 2008.

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Kennedy
LBoros,

One can only hope your qualified optimism is rewarded in 2008.  I have my doubts, but only time will tell.

"This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains."

by AustinBOB on Sep 25, 2007 9:16 AM EDT reply actions  

I was okay
with the Kennedy signing for one reason - it would put an end to the merry-go-round that had been second base for the Cards.  Plus, I thought a return to the team where he got his start would be a good thing.  Didn't turn out to be so, but I sincerely hope that Larry is right and he will rebound next season.  Surely he couldn't be worse, right?  

by cardsgirl95 on Sep 25, 2007 9:21 AM EDT reply actions  

Thanks
Thank you for pointing this out.  I have been trying to say similar things all season but finally having it fleshed out so well is nice.  Also doesn't it seem like an interesting "trend" that most of those players changed teams the year of the slump (or year before)?  Very good stuff.

by StLHugo on Sep 25, 2007 9:21 AM EDT reply actions  

Oh man
I looked at last night's box score.   It clearly said Wainwright but when I looked at pitching line I assumed Reyes had pitched.

by sdrone on Sep 25, 2007 10:05 AM EDT reply actions  

not all do though
It has been fairly common though, that over the years,  players who have had productive years throughout their twenties,just washout in their early thirties and never recover. with some thought, I could come up with a fairly large number, but just right off ryan sandburg and ralph kiner come to mind. both were great hitters throughout their twenties but slumped badly in their early thirties. all of a sudden at age 32, kiner could no longer hit the long ball and like sandburg, ended up retiring early. I kinda liked the kennedy trade last year though I did wonder why the three year contract. I think it was because I had just read a column that somebody had written that pointed out that second basemen have a tendency to age early and ofter become unprocuctive after passing thirty. I have not noticed this in particular however. but i do now wonder about kennedy,

by ridgesee on Sep 25, 2007 10:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Um, not to defend a Cub or anything
But Ryno was productive into his thirties:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sandbry01.shtml

He got hung up on some personal stuff, and according to his book:  "The reason I retired is simple: I lost the desire that got me ready to play on an everyday basis for so many years. Without it, I didn't think I could perform at the same level I had in the past, and I didn't want to play at a level less than what was expected of me by my teammates, coaches, ownership, and most of all, myself."  He was 34, not young, but not aged.

Then he did that weird unretire thing that Chicago athletes do for some reason.

there is no secret weapon...there is only Oquendo.

by bukowski on Sep 25, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ryno's Fade
Sandberg went through an ugly, bitter divorce sometime around age 30, when he was peaking as a hitter. He seemed fried mentally after the divorce, but perhaps his decline as a hitter contributed to this.

by Hungry Jack on Sep 25, 2007 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

as far as kiner...
his power was lost to a back injury, and it ended his career as well
Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Sep 25, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good post man
I am not the data mining type of guy, so here's my questions.

I wonder if there is any data to support the fall off due to change of leagues?

I know he was bottom third of the order with the Angels, and in the AL, bottom order guys get worked differently than in the NL where the pitcher is usually there.

 

there is no secret weapon...there is only Oquendo.

by bukowski on Sep 25, 2007 10:46 AM EDT reply actions  

nerd time
Of course Kennedy can make a comeback, he had a .699 PrOPS and a .240 BABIP this season which of course means he was extremely unlucky. I expect him anywhere from a .700-.750 OPS like he had been doing with the Angels with his very good defense next season.

by bigboy1234 @ Viva El Birdos on Sep 25, 2007 11:06 AM EDT reply actions  

Kennedy
All I can say is he can't be any worse.  I hope!
I really did not like the trade in terms of years.  Also don't you all remember Kennedy wearing a knee brace for the Angels a couple years ago?? I really was not a fan of them signing an older guy who had obvious knee problems for the Angels.  Not good for middle infielders to have knee problems.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 25, 2007 11:12 AM EDT reply actions  

Eck
What is everyones take on what they should do with David next year?

I would personally like to upgrade defensively.  I think offensively he has bounced back and been good.  The problem is he will be getting paid too much to be below average defensively and offensively.  If he was not making so much $$ it might be a bit different.  

The Cardinals need a great defensive guy or a guy with plus pop and run producing ability.  

by ICbirdfan on Sep 25, 2007 11:16 AM EDT reply actions  

I hope he comes back.
For whatever it's worth, Baseball Prospectus's PECOTA gave Kenndedy a 33% chance to collapse this season. That's a fair amount of risk. But still, his season is in the lower percentiles of their projection. Lugo was at 40%, BTW. To pick another second baseman, Orlando Hudson was at 19%.

Second baseman, I think I've read, don't tend to age as well as other players.

Years ago, Bill James found that if you list all of the palyers in baseball at age 32, half are gone by 33. And the same thing tends to happen for every year after that. Players don't age as well in the 30' as we think they do.

by tarakas on Sep 25, 2007 11:19 AM EDT reply actions  

Good point...
BP 2007 wrote that "what's... troubling is that Kennedy is going to be 31, and his PECOTA comparables are all guys whose careers fell apart around that age."  Indeed -- Delino DeShields collapsed at 32, Casey Candaele at 31, Darin Erstad at 32, and so on.

As tarakas said, we tend to think of 33 as fairly young, but that's probably b/c we only remember the 33-year-olds who are still playing.  For example, Roger Cedeno is 33.  So is Matt Clement, Wilton Guerrero, Warren Morris, Jeremy Giambi, and a whole lot of other guys out of baseball.

Brian Gunn

by briangunn on Sep 25, 2007 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly
Which is the exact reason you don't resing Eck to a new contract unless it is one year.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 25, 2007 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't it possible that the reason guys are out
in the 31-33 year old range is because fringe guys who never reach their potential 25-29 years old are given one last shot by teams (Kip Wells) to turn potential into talent?

Kip Wells should have been converted to a reliever 3 seasons ago.  Yet, people think they can fix him and thus his MLB career is prolonged as a starter for no reason other than promise.

I fear a similiar fate for Anthony Reyes.  Teams (hopefully for us) will think he can turn his career around and give up too much talent, too much money on the guy than warranted.

Then, suddenly he'll hit age 31, 32, etc and they'll see that as the 'expiration date' on turning potential into talent and realize he 'is who he is'.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 25, 2007 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think a major reason
these guys are out of baseball at 32-33 is not b/c of fringe guys -- b/c they are pretty fringy, for lack of a better word. They're probably out of baseball b/c of better, younger, cheaper players who are hurt less frequently.

by chuckb on Sep 25, 2007 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Remember Why You Play Second Base
Second basemen by their very nature are fringy. Second basemen in the majors tend to be failed shortstop prospects. You generally are put on second because what you can't do (play shortstop) not because of what you can do. When your role on the team is defined by your limitations, that is a problem. Studies show them as not lasting well overall. Obviously, this is not always true.

What I didn't like about the Kennedy signing was the length of it. While some guys who play second keep their value for quite awhile into their 30's, it tends to be upper tier guys like Lou Whitaker, Frank White and Joe Morgan. Solid guys like Kennedy, not so much. The odds of him losing it before the contract was over seemed pretty high.

by tarakas on Sep 25, 2007 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bonds
This is what makes Bonds so amazing despite all the stuff around the guy.

He is 43
.279 average
28 HR
.483 OBP

WOW!!

by ICbirdfan on Sep 25, 2007 12:10 PM EDT reply actions  

This discussion
reminds me of how I used to marvel over hearing that the average NFL career length was something like three years.  MLB's always seemed so much longer, vindicating the choices of two-sporters like Brian Jordan, etc.  But does anybody know about what it is these days, if you just total up major league service time and divide by number of players?

I guess you do have to account for most of these guys spending some significant portion of ages 18-24 in pro but not ML ball.

by jfs on Sep 25, 2007 12:47 PM EDT reply actions  

A note on Lugo 2007
Lugo has 30 stolen bases in 550 AB but 19 errors (0.967 FP).  

by redrey on Sep 25, 2007 12:50 PM EDT reply actions  

i think kennedy could bounce back
but jarrett hoffpaiur seems ready if he can't/doesn't. now, someone needs to take aaron miles to a nice long drive in the country.

by erik on Sep 25, 2007 2:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Nah, we just need to somehow
keep in on the bench as a backup for ss/2nd.

by sdrone on Sep 25, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why?
he's terrible defensively and we'll have Ryan who can do his utility job (unless Ryan's the starting SS -- highly doubtful, IMO). So we'll have Kennedy, Hoffpauir, Miles and Ryan who can all play 2B plus unnamed SS? Kennedy stays b/c he has to -- we've got 2 more years and $7 - 8 million wrapped up in him and we can't trade him. Hoffpauir and Ryan are better and cheaper than Miles is so what exactly does Aaron Miles offer us?

by chuckb on Sep 25, 2007 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

so if Miles is that guy.....
that means there is NO room for Eck...  I love the guy, appreciate every minute he's played with the Birds on the Bat across his chest....but we need a better defensive shortstop on this team

by Timbo02 on Sep 25, 2007 2:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Agreed
I said that in this same section a few posts ago.  Eck is no longer worth what he will cost.  He is below average defensively.  Yes he does a pretty good job of getting the balls he should but he has no chance of making plays in the hole unles the runner is Yadi.

Miles would be a great back up.  I don't know why he has gotten so much crap on this blog.  He even said he signed knowing he would be a back up.  It is not his fault he acutually has produced and gained more playing time.  

I don't know if Brendan Ryan is the answer at SS either.  I would not mind him at 2B, but the Cards need some better pop and d at SS.  

This is why the middle IF spot is so messed up.  We have too many guys right now.  I guess Eck could be gone as well as Miles?  Didn't Miles only sign a 1 yr deal?

I don't like the idea of Ryan and Kennedy as the MI next year.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 25, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Miles detractors
What's the issue? The cat is batting close to .300. Sure, he carries a frying pan and a wet noodle onto the field, but he doesn't cost much and has been a capable fill-in.

by templetown on Sep 25, 2007 3:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Miles
I have no problem with the guy.  I wish a few more guys on the team would have decided to step up and at least put their career average numbers.  I belive Miles probably did better than his average.  

hint, hint:  Kip Wells, Anthony Reyes, Jim Edmonds, Scott Rolen, Adam Kennedy.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 25, 2007 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

A sub .700ops is too low
for someone that gets as many at bats as he does.  Since he makes up nothing with the glove, he is a liability to the team any time he takes the field.

by DriverZn on Sep 25, 2007 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

No doubt he was over-exposed/ over used
but that isn't his fault.  That is the fault of Adam Kennedy or no one.

I also have no problems with Miles.  He is a great 24th or 25th man on the roster.  He is not a great everyday player.

500- What it takes enough to win at Rummy, at Indy and in the NL Central.

by Zubin on Sep 25, 2007 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Doesn't OPS lean toward power hitters?
Can't slap hitters catch a break? Ichiro has a .816 OPS. He's batting .350. You wouldn't want him at the top of the lineup?

by templetown on Sep 26, 2007 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

if miles was hitting .350
we wouldn't be having this conversation.  Miles OBP is just .332 and he's hit into 11 double plays in ~430 PA's.  He also batted .263 last year, and is batting .295 this year, so he is by no means a lock for a ".300 batting average".  

Aaron is almost the definition of "replacement-level" player and if we can find someone better, or cheaper, or even someone of the same level but younger (and therefore possessing the potential to improve), we should give them a shot.

(also Ichiro's OPS is .827)

"but the rain is so real, lord; and the rainbows pretend..."

by SleepyCA on Sep 26, 2007 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes OPS is too heavy
on SLG.  wOBA (developed by Lichtman, Tango, and Dolphin) is a better metric -- you can find it at firstinning.com

by azruavatar on Sep 26, 2007 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Issue #1
is his defense -- it's atrocious.  Issue #2 is his OPS -- .690.  Issue #3 is his salary -- this year he earned $1M while Ryan earned the minimum.  Ryan and Hoffpauir will earn the minimum next year while Miles is arbitration-eligible.  

Ryan and Hoffpauir will be better and cheaper than Miles next year.  The only excuse for having Miles on the team is if Ryan is the starting SS -- Miles would be a (barely adequate) utility infielder.  Short of that, Miles needs to be somewhere else next year.

by chuckb on Sep 25, 2007 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hoffpauir is an unknown
He could rock like Ankiel or flop like Barden. Who knows? Miles has hit .300 against major league pitching. Period. His defense sucks. So what? You complain he's making a million. I say $1 million is cheap for .300 in 400 at bats. Look at his Ks. 37! The dude puts it in play.

People at VEB expect everyone on the Cards to be an all-star.

by templetown on Sep 26, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tough to choose
who on that list is the biggest disappointment. Rolen, Edmonds and Kennedy have the injury excuse. Reyes is a rookie. That leaves Wells who has never been terribly successful -- though he has been terrible. For me, Edwards feels like the biggest disappointment because he was injured AGAIN and we extended his contract when he was clearly on the decline. I would have been happy with less-than career numbers, but he didn't really come close to modest expectations for that money.

Whoever perpetuated the "Edwards" tag has made this season a little easier to endure.

by templetown on Sep 25, 2007 3:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Brendan Ryan
I see Brendan Ryan being like Ryan Theriot and David Eckstein.  

Eck- Not alot of natural talent.  He plays very hard but tends to decline when injury and fatigue catches up to him.

Theriot- Same as Eck.  He has actually been slumping lately and is out with back spasams.  Some feel his all out effort has took it toll. He is very similar to Eck but his arm & range are better.  I would say he has more pop but only has 2 or 3 HR this year.

Ryan-  He may be just like Theriot.  You know, around a .300 hitter who may get about 5 HR a year.  Good strong arm, but not an offensive guy you can ride.  

If Ryan is what I think he is we need more pop asap.  That is why I don't like him and Kennedy.  I would prefer Ryan at 2B but Kennedy was singed for too much $$ and now we must play him.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 25, 2007 3:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Wondering
Of course its possible that Jed, Scotty, Mulder, Carp, AK or a reasonable combo of said return to health and career average.

On the other hand, what if the powers that be decide to bet on a couple (Carp and Mulder) and trade the others for young players and eat alot of salary in the process....all in the name of rebuilding.  And by the way, we could probably find many experts who would vote that way.

Seems to me, we have three options

  1. the above
  2. hope the aged and wounded return
  3. add thirty million in 2007 payroll
Since it's hard to envision 2 or 3 happening....My question is.......Does Cardinal Nation have the patience for such a 1 to 2 year down-turn as required by option 1??

by Hinkster on Sep 25, 2007 3:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Hummm
Jed-  He is done after next year anyway.  So I guess I could care less about him long term.  I hope he hits at least 10-15 more HR next year and gets his average around .280.  That would help and he could leave on a good note.

Rolen- I am almost in hope he comes back camp.  We deperately need another run producer.  He has to come back ok and I don't know what trade value he has at this point.  I would eat his contract if we were gettting a stud.

Mulder- Assume he is done.  Do not plan on him being around.  Can't trade him.  Who would take an injured guy who throws 88 MPH with a 12 ERA at this point.  We are stuck with him but they need to assume he is not in the rotation.

Carp- Just consider him done next year.  He will not be around in 2008.  Lets see how his rehab goes and hope his velocity is good.  We have to hope he doesn't have a lot of little set backs.  Just go off rehab and hope we can have a healthy Carp.  Do not plan on him being a #1 though.  That would be a big mistake. I don't see anyone making a trade for him.  If so we would not get much at this point for him.

AK- I think he will be better next year. He can't be worse.  I don't see much from him though.  He will play good D.  Maybe he hits .290 with 8 HR and 60 RBI.  He is not going to contribute much.  He is a good role player but he is not a major run producer by any means.  He will be an overpaid role player basically.  Kind of like Derosa but Derosa is better since he is more versitile.  I don't see any real interest in the guy unless a team is a veteran 2B away from being good.  How many teams say that though?  Unless the 2B is Jeff Kent who is a run producer.

I think the Cards are unfortunately stuck with all the guys.  They are not going to get any good return on the players.  So they just have to ride out the contracts they got themselves into.  The only person I see maybe getting rid of is Rolen if he comes back strong and has a good 1st half maybe someone trades for him.  Who knows if he has a good first half the Cards may be in a good spot and not wanting to trade him.  Who else can produce runs on the team besides Albert right now?  

by ICbirdfan on Sep 25, 2007 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree
With your individual assessments....let me re-phrase the question.

Given we are truly stuck with Carp & Mulder.......what if we traded Rolen, Jed and AK for A and AA prospects.....

If we don't, you seem to be accurately stating the conclusion that we are all coming to......we are really stuck with this roster thru 2008

Maybe, I'll take a very long nap

by Hinkster on Sep 25, 2007 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your point
I don't disagree with you!  I would love to trade off guys for young talent.  Generally AA has your best prospects so it would not be bad.  

I think we may be a year or two too late is the only problem.  I think Rolen would be the best trade bait, then AK, then Jed.

Now the only thing we need to do is find someone to take the bait.

But I agree with you this team is not getting any younger.  Heck 08 may be a wash without any pitching so we may want to see our young guys in MLB action and kind of write off the year.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 25, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes
It's hard to see 2008 as anything but a wait-it-out year.......be it with prospects or veterans

by Hinkster on Sep 25, 2007 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Everything starts with.....
Tony....until he decides if he is coming back or not...all the above is in limbo. I don't think you see the Cards do Anything ..till the manager decides what his plans will be.

by Timbo02 on Sep 25, 2007 4:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Correct
Tony is not in a rebuilding phase.  He has paid his dues, and for young managers rebuilding generally means you manage a few years and then get fired once the team gets better for a more experienced manager to take over.  IE.. a manager with play-off experience.  It seems to work that way often that the manager who gets to rebuild does not get to reap the benefits.

In my opinion this season has proven that starting pitching is so important it is not even funny.  I heard the stats last night and I wanted to puke.  The O has been inconsistent but the Cards have been blown out so many times the O has not even had a realistic shot at getting back in the game.  Pitching needs to keep a team close so they can get to a weak bullpen.  Our pitching has been so bad, it has not even kept the team close.  

I am hesitant to predict the future based on our pitching dilema.  Right now the pitching is awful.  

I agree with Bernie the ball is in Tony's court but the ball is mainly in Mr. Dewitt's court.  Mr. D needs to be upfront with Tony about how much $$ he will spend.  Tony is not going to stick around if they try to save $$ and sign other horrible "scrap heap" guys.  

I think Tony wants to know if there is a $$ commitment, just like Lou Pinella with the Cubs.  Lou was not going to coach the Cubbies if they were going to continue to be cheap!  Tony will not stay in STL if they want to nicke and dime stuff as they have lately.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 25, 2007 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

The funny part
Wells, Cairo were the guys TLR wanted.  The fact that Wells did more damage to this teams playoff hopes than anyone is entirely due to Tony and Dave getting "their guy".

He cannot change his tune now.  Look back at the comments they made during the signing.

by DriverZn on Sep 25, 2007 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think that actually matters...
because really, I don't think Walt has much to work with.  No room for increasing salary. And simply not much to trade.  I doubt any team will take Rolen or Edmonds and give much in return. In Rolen's case, I don't know who would replace him. Barden? Cairo? Ryan's not a very good 3B.

Walt missed the chances to reload the team with prospects at the trading deadline. He could have moved some of the relievers for something.

by DiscoJer on Sep 25, 2007 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

DeWitt
Last night I watch a KSDK sports segment that had an interview with DeWitt and he seemed sincerely ready to spend money if the talent was out there and worth it.  He is a good business man though so it could easily be smoke and mirrors but I think he might be ready to open the purse strings for a pitcher that is actually worth the money.

by StLHugo on Sep 25, 2007 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd like to believe that, but...
he made those same comments after the last two seasons.  We got Looper and Juan after '05 and Wells and Kennedy after '06, so I'm not getting my hopes up.
I know they offered contracts to Schmidt and Wolf and were turned down, but that's still no excuse for coming into the season shorthanded.

by Handsome B Wonderful on Sep 25, 2007 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree
the powers that be will meet with Tony and some of the other coaches this week.  I think that the meeting w/ DeWitt, et al will help decide what Tony's going to do and a lot of it will be predicated on what DeWitt has to say about next year's payroll.  

I think that Tony will decide not to return if the owners don't provide him some assurances that payroll will rise fairly significantly next year.  

So everything starts w/ DeWitt's decision about payroll, then Tony comes next.

by chuckb on Sep 25, 2007 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am proud to say...
...I hated the Kennedy move from the beginning.

by bdub78 on Sep 25, 2007 5:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Hmm
I am proud to say I was happy about Kennedy from the beginning and thus disappointed in his disastrous season.  One of the forums I was reading at the time had several people pulling for Loretta (man what would that have done with the year he had this year) so most of them were disappointed.  Either of those two would have made me happy and I liked the whole Angels reunion angle.  But I agree AK has been horrid this year.

by StLHugo on Sep 25, 2007 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

And the Brewers got Graffinino for almost
free.  He was quite useful until he got hurt.  Rickie Weeks suffered significant growing pains transitioning to the bigs, and Graffinono stepped up.  He could have been had too......

by jillsinmo on Sep 25, 2007 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well as has been dicussed here many times....
Where would this team have been if they just had signed Grud back when he became a FA...

by Timbo02 on Sep 25, 2007 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously
Grudz is a solid batter and has a good arm.  He just re-upped with KC (for pretty cheap), unfortunately.

by spants on Sep 25, 2007 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

2nd base has been a black hole since
Grudz left.  Don't forget they also chose not to go with Belliard.  He wasn't quite 2 months in the league, so I wasn't surprised he didn't hit all that well, but he played 2nd base in an inspired, almost dangerous kind of way that I found entertaining.  Look how great he's been for
Washington this year---he sure could of helped here, at a lot less money than they forked over for Kennedy.  Ah, but he had that "girl" trouble, the incident that someone went to jail over.  They should have stood behind him......

by jillsinmo on Sep 25, 2007 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

correct
I do remember Grudz chosing the pay day in KC.  At that time I did not see him having much left in the tank for some reason, I guess he just seemed old.  He was not a real fluid 2B.

I can't say I was for the Kennedy deal or against it a ton.  I found it odd that we offered a guy a 3 year deal who seemed hurt and old to me.  I expected him to produce, but nothing great which is why the deal was odd.  I thought we were overpaying for a guy on his downward slide.  The deal was good if you made it 3 years ago.

I would like to see the Cards get rid of Kennedy and his contract at this point.  He is not a savior and we could get someone cheap to play 2B.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 25, 2007 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Grudz
was adequate, though.  Didn't he and Eck set some sort of record for double plays?  Anyway, he had only 7 errors in 2005, 137 games.  Not bad.

In 2007, Grudz's OPS+ was 94.  Aaron Miles' was 81.  Ronnie Belliard's was 97.    

by spants on Sep 25, 2007 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

SS
Any good free agent SS?

by ICbirdfan on Sep 25, 2007 5:30 PM EDT reply actions  

See my signature
Not a free agent, but he can be had.
Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 25, 2007 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Probably not too much
He's blocking the way for Yunel Escobar, so the Braves want to get rid of him.  We have a young pitcher who at one time had great potential, but just isn't a match here, and could use a change of scenery.  I think some variation of a Reyes for Renteria trade could be done.  Of course, this could turn out to be terribly one-sided in our favor, so they may ask for more, but I wouldn't imagine much more, if we take on most (or all) of Edgar's salary.

See the "2008 Roster" diary for a pretty detailed discussion about the situation.

Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 25, 2007 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

not really
david eckstein is the best available unless ARod opts out.  They'll need to trade to get someone better, like renteria or tejada.

They should probably just offer Eckstein arbitration; if he accepts they'll have a one-year stopgap for $5-6M and if he declines they'll get the draft pick.  Hopefully then Martinez will be ready to take over in '09.

"but the rain is so real, lord; and the rainbows pretend..."

by SleepyCA on Sep 25, 2007 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eckstein best available?
I was about to call bs on this comment until I looked at the available free agents and you are probably right.  That's pretty sad...
If we don't offer Eckstein arbitration, I think he easily gets a 2-3 yr. offer from another team due to the lack of other options available.  I wouldn't want him for anything more than 1 yr./$5M

by Handsome B Wonderful on Sep 25, 2007 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Arbitration
Eckstein is a FA not arbitration anymore.

by StLHugo on Sep 25, 2007 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

different kind of arbitration
see Greg Maddux in 2002, I think. It is the one that gets you compensatory draft picks.
"Show me a guy who takes his time on the mound and I'll show you a damned loser." - Leo Durocher

by mattyfrommo on Sep 25, 2007 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes
Yeah I remember now sorry big brain fart.

by StLHugo on Sep 25, 2007 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

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