can kennedy bounce back?
few howls of outrage arose when the cardinals signed adam kennedy last winter. few shouts of joy went out either; it wasn't that type of a signing. kennedy seemed like a sensible, low-risk acquisition who'd stabilize a position that had lacked a regular tenant for most of four years --- since the middle of 2003, when fernando vina went out with an injury. since then hart, womack, grud'k, luna, miles, and belliard had taken turns at the position, and junior smiley had played himself out of a crack at it; kennedy was expected to be as good as the best of that lot and far superior to the worst.
hah.
the other day, when i compared scott rolen's actual performance to his expected performance, i estimated the deficit at about 30 runs, or 3 wins. kennedy's corresponding deficit this year was nearly as large --- 21 runs, or 2 wins (and that's adjusted for playing time). but the kennedy slump seems to have come from out of nowhere; he's never had a season remotely like this one, whereas rolen in 2007 essentially returned to his 2005 level of production. while we didn't expect scotty to wash out, we at least knew there was a certain risk of his shoulder acting up again. kennedy, by contrast, has been a model of consistency throughout his career. it was thought that, at 31, he might be susceptible to a slight downturn, but not a soul predicted that he'd be one of the worst position players in the majors.
out of curiosity, i checked out the list of comparables at kennedy's baseball-reference.com page, and out popped a familiar name: tony pena, the catcher the cardinals traded for right before the 1987 season. paid a pretty penny for him, too --- two of the guys they gave up, andy van slyke and mike lavailliere, were regulars on the pirates' division winners of 1990-1992. but pena was the best player at his position in the league --- a perennial all-star who provided gold-glove defense and an above-league-average bat. he was 30 years old when he came to st louis, a year younger than kennedy; compare the two seasons (pena's numbers are pro-rated to equal kennedy's 279 at-bats; he actually batted 384 times):
| AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | | | AVG | OBP | SLG | OPS+ | |||
| kennedy 2007 | 279 | 27 | 61 | 9 | 1 | 3 | 18 | 22 | | | .219 | .282 | .290 | 50 | ||
| pena 1987 | 279 | 30 | 60 | 9 | 3 | 4 | 33 | 27 | | | .214 | .281 | .307 | 55 |
the 1987 cardinals won the pennant despite pena's performance, so it doesn't particularly irritate. the following year pena bounced back partway, posting a .263 / .308 / .372 line (94 ops+, above average for a catcher), and he stayed at about the same level for 1989, then went off to the american league for the last 8 years of his career.
interestingly enough, a couple of the other high-ranked comparables on kennedy's list also crashed in their age 31 season. remember now, the comps aren't updated until the end of the season, so this list reflects the guys most similar to kennedy through age 30 --- they were already similar before this year's slump. the #1 guy on the list, johnny logan, played shortstop for the milwaukee braves in the 1950s; his number 2 comp is julio lugo, who signed a big-bucks contract last winter and, dollar for dollar, has stunk at least as badly as kennedy this season. comparisons, again pro-rated for 279 at-bats:
| AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | | | AVG | OBP | SLG | OPS+ | |||
| kennedy 2007 | 279 | 27 | 61 | 9 | 1 | 3 | 18 | 22 | | | .219 | .282 | .290 | 50 | ||
| logan 1958 | 279 | 27 | 63 | 11 | 0 | 5 | 27 | 21 | | | .226 | .286 | .326 | 68 | ||
| lugo 2007 | 279 | 35 | 66 | 18 | 1 | 4 | 37 | 23 | | | .239 | .296 | .355 | 70 |
logan bounced right back at age 32 with one of his best seasons ever --- .291 / .369 / .411 (115 ops+); it remains to be seen what trajectory lugo will follow. now warming to the inquiry, i decided to search the lahmann database for seasons that were similar to kennedy's, to see out how those players fared the following year. i set the following parameters:
average: .225 or less
slugging: .340 or less
ray knight, 1984: .237 / .279 / .299 in 371 at-bats
like kennedy, knight was 31 years old when he had his awful year. he was better than kennedy in his 20s (two all-star appearances and a top-5 mvp finish), and there was a sizeable ballpark factor involved in the collapse of knight's bat --- the previous year he'd moved to the astrodome, one of the most hitter-unfriendly ballparks ever. in the midst of his 1984 slump knight got traded to the mets, for whom he played even worse the following year (.218 / .252 / .328). but knight did have one good season left in him --- 1986, when he approached his career highs in batting, obp, homers, and rbis. knight was the guy who scored the winning run when the ball rolled through billy buckner's legs in game 6 of the '86 series; in game 7 he hit a solo homer to break a 7th-inning tie and propel the mets to the world title.
tony bernazard, 1984: .221 / .290 / .287 in 439 at-bats
bernazard was 27 years old and in his 4th full year as a big-leaguer; the previous 3 seasons he'd been an above-average hitter (tony la russa himself made bernazard a regular) with a good glove at 2b, ie a very valuable player. he changed teams / ballparks in 1984 and posted an ops+ of 60, but turned in the two peak years of his career in 1985-86. he was significantly younger than kennedy, but otherwise a reasonably similar case.
vance law, 1986: .225 / .298 / .325 in 360 at-bats
interestingly enough, he was tony bernazard's teammate under la russa on the early-1980s white sox. law was with montreal by 1986, 29 years old and coming off a career year (123 ops+). primarily a 3d baseman for la russa, he shifted to 2d at montreal. after his 1986 slump (ops+ of 73), he returned to above-average levels of production in his age-30 and -31 seasons.
vinny castilla 2000: .221 / .254 / .308 in 331 at-bats
castilla is not very comparable to kennedy; entirely different type of player, one whose success was highly ballpark-dependent. but he slumped at a similar age to kennedy (32) and, like kennedy, after switching teams and leagues --- it was vinny's first year with the devil rays. his ops+ in 2000 was just 42, but he returned to league-average status the following year after being traded back to the nl. at age 34 he faltered badly again, but then settled in as a useful player for another 3 years.
in all of these cases (and in the pena and logan cases above), the player's dreadful year did not signal an irreversible loss of skill; all the guys in question came to back to have good seasons. i suspect that the same will be true for adam kennedy. he prob'y was playing on a bad knee all year; he also had switched leagues and didn't know the pitchers. while the prospect of opening next year with kennedy at 2b seems rather depressing at the moment, he has a reasonable chance of surprising us in a pleasant way in 2008.
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Kennedy
One can only hope your qualified optimism is rewarded in 2008. I have my doubts, but only time will tell.
I was okay
Thanks
Oh man
not all do though
Um, not to defend a Cub or anything
http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sandbry01.shtml
He got hung up on some personal stuff, and according to his book: "The reason I retired is simple: I lost the desire that got me ready to play on an everyday basis for so many years. Without it, I didn't think I could perform at the same level I had in the past, and I didn't want to play at a level less than what was expected of me by my teammates, coaches, ownership, and most of all, myself." He was 34, not young, but not aged.
Then he did that weird unretire thing that Chicago athletes do for some reason.
Ryno's Fade
by Hungry Jack on Sep 25, 2007 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
as far as kiner...
by bigcardsfan5 on Sep 25, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Good post man
I wonder if there is any data to support the fall off due to change of leagues?
I know he was bottom third of the order with the Angels, and in the AL, bottom order guys get worked differently than in the NL where the pitcher is usually there.
nerd time
by bigboy1234 @ Viva El Birdos on Sep 25, 2007 11:06 AM EDT reply actions
Kennedy
I really did not like the trade in terms of years. Also don't you all remember Kennedy wearing a knee brace for the Angels a couple years ago?? I really was not a fan of them signing an older guy who had obvious knee problems for the Angels. Not good for middle infielders to have knee problems.
Eck
I would personally like to upgrade defensively. I think offensively he has bounced back and been good. The problem is he will be getting paid too much to be below average defensively and offensively. If he was not making so much $$ it might be a bit different.
The Cardinals need a great defensive guy or a guy with plus pop and run producing ability.
I hope he comes back.
Second baseman, I think I've read, don't tend to age as well as other players.
Years ago, Bill James found that if you list all of the palyers in baseball at age 32, half are gone by 33. And the same thing tends to happen for every year after that. Players don't age as well in the 30' as we think they do.
Good point...
As tarakas said, we tend to think of 33 as fairly young, but that's probably b/c we only remember the 33-year-olds who are still playing. For example, Roger Cedeno is 33. So is Matt Clement, Wilton Guerrero, Warren Morris, Jeremy Giambi, and a whole lot of other guys out of baseball.
Isn't it possible that the reason guys are out
Kip Wells should have been converted to a reliever 3 seasons ago. Yet, people think they can fix him and thus his MLB career is prolonged as a starter for no reason other than promise.
I fear a similiar fate for Anthony Reyes. Teams (hopefully for us) will think he can turn his career around and give up too much talent, too much money on the guy than warranted.
Then, suddenly he'll hit age 31, 32, etc and they'll see that as the 'expiration date' on turning potential into talent and realize he 'is who he is'.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 25, 2007 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I think a major reason
Remember Why You Play Second Base
What I didn't like about the Kennedy signing was the length of it. While some guys who play second keep their value for quite awhile into their 30's, it tends to be upper tier guys like Lou Whitaker, Frank White and Joe Morgan. Solid guys like Kennedy, not so much. The odds of him losing it before the contract was over seemed pretty high.
Bonds
He is 43
.279 average
28 HR
.483 OBP
WOW!!
This discussion
I guess you do have to account for most of these guys spending some significant portion of ages 18-24 in pro but not ML ball.
i think kennedy could bounce back
Nah, we just need to somehow
Why?
so if Miles is that guy.....
Agreed
Miles would be a great back up. I don't know why he has gotten so much crap on this blog. He even said he signed knowing he would be a back up. It is not his fault he acutually has produced and gained more playing time.
I don't know if Brendan Ryan is the answer at SS either. I would not mind him at 2B, but the Cards need some better pop and d at SS.
This is why the middle IF spot is so messed up. We have too many guys right now. I guess Eck could be gone as well as Miles? Didn't Miles only sign a 1 yr deal?
I don't like the idea of Ryan and Kennedy as the MI next year.
Miles detractors
Miles
hint, hint: Kip Wells, Anthony Reyes, Jim Edmonds, Scott Rolen, Adam Kennedy.
A sub .700ops is too low
No doubt he was over-exposed/ over used
I also have no problems with Miles. He is a great 24th or 25th man on the roster. He is not a great everyday player.
Doesn't OPS lean toward power hitters?
if miles was hitting .350
Aaron is almost the definition of "replacement-level" player and if we can find someone better, or cheaper, or even someone of the same level but younger (and therefore possessing the potential to improve), we should give them a shot.
(also Ichiro's OPS is .827)
yes OPS is too heavy
Issue #1
Ryan and Hoffpauir will be better and cheaper than Miles next year. The only excuse for having Miles on the team is if Ryan is the starting SS -- Miles would be a (barely adequate) utility infielder. Short of that, Miles needs to be somewhere else next year.
Hoffpauir is an unknown
People at VEB expect everyone on the Cards to be an all-star.
Tough to choose
Whoever perpetuated the "Edwards" tag has made this season a little easier to endure.
Brendan Ryan
Eck- Not alot of natural talent. He plays very hard but tends to decline when injury and fatigue catches up to him.
Theriot- Same as Eck. He has actually been slumping lately and is out with back spasams. Some feel his all out effort has took it toll. He is very similar to Eck but his arm & range are better. I would say he has more pop but only has 2 or 3 HR this year.
Ryan- He may be just like Theriot. You know, around a .300 hitter who may get about 5 HR a year. Good strong arm, but not an offensive guy you can ride.
If Ryan is what I think he is we need more pop asap. That is why I don't like him and Kennedy. I would prefer Ryan at 2B but Kennedy was singed for too much $$ and now we must play him.
Wondering
On the other hand, what if the powers that be decide to bet on a couple (Carp and Mulder) and trade the others for young players and eat alot of salary in the process....all in the name of rebuilding. And by the way, we could probably find many experts who would vote that way.
Seems to me, we have three options
- the above
- hope the aged and wounded return
- add thirty million in 2007 payroll
Hummm
Rolen- I am almost in hope he comes back camp. We deperately need another run producer. He has to come back ok and I don't know what trade value he has at this point. I would eat his contract if we were gettting a stud.
Mulder- Assume he is done. Do not plan on him being around. Can't trade him. Who would take an injured guy who throws 88 MPH with a 12 ERA at this point. We are stuck with him but they need to assume he is not in the rotation.
Carp- Just consider him done next year. He will not be around in 2008. Lets see how his rehab goes and hope his velocity is good. We have to hope he doesn't have a lot of little set backs. Just go off rehab and hope we can have a healthy Carp. Do not plan on him being a #1 though. That would be a big mistake. I don't see anyone making a trade for him. If so we would not get much at this point for him.
AK- I think he will be better next year. He can't be worse. I don't see much from him though. He will play good D. Maybe he hits .290 with 8 HR and 60 RBI. He is not going to contribute much. He is a good role player but he is not a major run producer by any means. He will be an overpaid role player basically. Kind of like Derosa but Derosa is better since he is more versitile. I don't see any real interest in the guy unless a team is a veteran 2B away from being good. How many teams say that though? Unless the 2B is Jeff Kent who is a run producer.
I think the Cards are unfortunately stuck with all the guys. They are not going to get any good return on the players. So they just have to ride out the contracts they got themselves into. The only person I see maybe getting rid of is Rolen if he comes back strong and has a good 1st half maybe someone trades for him. Who knows if he has a good first half the Cards may be in a good spot and not wanting to trade him. Who else can produce runs on the team besides Albert right now?
Agree
Given we are truly stuck with Carp & Mulder.......what if we traded Rolen, Jed and AK for A and AA prospects.....
If we don't, you seem to be accurately stating the conclusion that we are all coming to......we are really stuck with this roster thru 2008
Maybe, I'll take a very long nap
Your point
I think we may be a year or two too late is the only problem. I think Rolen would be the best trade bait, then AK, then Jed.
Now the only thing we need to do is find someone to take the bait.
But I agree with you this team is not getting any younger. Heck 08 may be a wash without any pitching so we may want to see our young guys in MLB action and kind of write off the year.
Everything starts with.....
Correct
In my opinion this season has proven that starting pitching is so important it is not even funny. I heard the stats last night and I wanted to puke. The O has been inconsistent but the Cards have been blown out so many times the O has not even had a realistic shot at getting back in the game. Pitching needs to keep a team close so they can get to a weak bullpen. Our pitching has been so bad, it has not even kept the team close.
I am hesitant to predict the future based on our pitching dilema. Right now the pitching is awful.
I agree with Bernie the ball is in Tony's court but the ball is mainly in Mr. Dewitt's court. Mr. D needs to be upfront with Tony about how much $$ he will spend. Tony is not going to stick around if they try to save $$ and sign other horrible "scrap heap" guys.
I think Tony wants to know if there is a $$ commitment, just like Lou Pinella with the Cubs. Lou was not going to coach the Cubbies if they were going to continue to be cheap! Tony will not stay in STL if they want to nicke and dime stuff as they have lately.
The funny part
He cannot change his tune now. Look back at the comments they made during the signing.
I don't think that actually matters...
Walt missed the chances to reload the team with prospects at the trading deadline. He could have moved some of the relievers for something.
DeWitt
I'd like to believe that, but...
I know they offered contracts to Schmidt and Wolf and were turned down, but that's still no excuse for coming into the season shorthanded.
by Handsome B Wonderful on Sep 25, 2007 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree
I think that Tony will decide not to return if the owners don't provide him some assurances that payroll will rise fairly significantly next year.
So everything starts w/ DeWitt's decision about payroll, then Tony comes next.
I am proud to say...
Hmm
And the Brewers got Graffinino for almost
Well as has been dicussed here many times....
Seriously
2nd base has been a black hole since
Washington this year---he sure could of helped here, at a lot less money than they forked over for Kennedy. Ah, but he had that "girl" trouble, the incident that someone went to jail over. They should have stood behind him......
correct
I can't say I was for the Kennedy deal or against it a ton. I found it odd that we offered a guy a 3 year deal who seemed hurt and old to me. I expected him to produce, but nothing great which is why the deal was odd. I thought we were overpaying for a guy on his downward slide. The deal was good if you made it 3 years ago.
I would like to see the Cards get rid of Kennedy and his contract at this point. He is not a savior and we could get someone cheap to play 2B.
Grudz
In 2007, Grudz's OPS+ was 94. Aaron Miles' was 81. Ronnie Belliard's was 97.
Probably not too much
See the "2008 Roster" diary for a pretty detailed discussion about the situation.
not really
They should probably just offer Eckstein arbitration; if he accepts they'll have a one-year stopgap for $5-6M and if he declines they'll get the draft pick. Hopefully then Martinez will be ready to take over in '09.
Eckstein best available?
If we don't offer Eckstein arbitration, I think he easily gets a 2-3 yr. offer from another team due to the lack of other options available. I wouldn't want him for anything more than 1 yr./$5M
by Handsome B Wonderful on Sep 25, 2007 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions



















