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Around SBN: Cal RB Jahvid Best Seriously Injured, Carted Off Field

what's left to root for

nifty way to wrap up the home schedule. after shelling brad lidge for 5 runs back on april 8 in their first crack at him for 2007, the cardinals had gone just 1 for 17 against him --- until last night. albert pujols reached base all four times he faced lidge this year ---- once on an error, twice on walks, and last night on an rbi single.

with the victory, the '07 cardinals ensured that they won't stand alone as the worst of la russa's 12 st louis teams; they're now tied with the 1997 cardinals at 73 wins and can pass them with just one more W. with 3 more victories, they'll also pass the '99 team; those were senor tony's only sub-.500 finishes in st louis before this season. a few other ignoble deeds remain to be avoided, however:

1. with 7 games to play, the cardinals have allowed 795 runs. the worst runs-allowed total in franchise history belongs to the 1999 cardinals, at 838. they need to hold their opponents to 43 runs or fewer this week to avoid becoming the most scored-upon cardinal team of all time. in their average 7-game segment this year, they've allowed 36 runs; could be a close call. the cards have allowed more than 43 runs in 2 of their last 4 segments of 7 games --- the totals (working backwards) are 52, 32, 45, and 30. here are the worst runs-allowed totals in franchise history:

yr runs nl
rank
1999 838 11th / 16
1912 830 7th / 8
1922 819 7th / 8
1929 806 5th / 8
2007 795 12th / 16

2. last night's win left the cards' run differential at negative 105 --- 690 runs scored, 795 runs allowed. the last cardinal team to get outscored by 100 runs or more was the 1955 squad, which scored 654 and gave up 757. as it currently stands, the 2007 cardinals' run differential is the worst of the last 91 years; the last team to get outscored by more than 105 was the 1916 team managed by miller huggins (-153). that was rogers hornsby's rookie year. the worst marks since then:

yr runs opp
runs
diff w-l pl
1916 476 629 -153 60-93 7th
1955 654 757 -103 68-86 7th
1990 599 698 -99 70-92 6th
1995 563 658 -95 62-81 4th
1919 463 552 -89 54-83 7th

you might have noticed that three of those years --- 1955, 1990, and 1995 --- marked the end of a managerial regime (eddie stanky, whitey herzog, and joe torre, respectively). just sayin' . . . . .

3. the 1916 team also was the last cardinal team to lead the league in negative run differential. the 2007 cardinals still might achieve that; they're tied for 3d place at the moment in a breathless competition:

runs opp
runs
diff
was 636 750 -114
pgh 704 813 -109
fla 758 863 -105
stl 690 795 -105
hou 696 790 -94

this year's group didn't quit, and they managed to hold our interest well into september; for that, we should admire them. but the bottom line doesn't lie: it's one of the worst cardinal teams in a long, long time. we ought to keep that in mind when discussing what sort of personnel moves are in order next season.

read elsewhere dept.:

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For what it's worth
Jayson Stark of ESPN predicting TLR will be back....primarily because Dunc and WJ have another year on contract and uncertainty in potential destinations (Sea, Pgh, Cinc)

by Hinkster on Sep 24, 2007 8:08 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Walt last night
Walt was interviewed last night and said something about "meeting with Tony" about off season moves, and it was probably the meeting to discuss Tony's future that he meant to refer to he did imply that Tony will have a say about the future and the ESPN guys took that as Tony coming back.  All in all it was a decent broadcast last night, Joe Morgan was a bit annoying but not overly bad and actually better then Al has been lately.

by StLHugo on Sep 24, 2007 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the difference
The one thing that makes 2007 different from 1955, 1990, and 1995, is of course, 2006.  :)  I think Tony's earned himself the right to an off year.  Besides, it's clear that this team's underperformance is due more to injuries than anything else.

by john vb on Sep 24, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This year was historically bad...
Since when is planning for injuries not part of Jocketty's and Larussa's job? Since when is not building adequate depth into the roster not part of their job? Before the season started, the significant risk for injury for Carpenter, Rolen, Pujols, and Edmonds were all known. With Carpenter, they knew about his elbow problems when they signed the extension. Edmonds and Rolen had horrible second halves last year due to injury. Pujols has had chronic, worsening health problems for years. With Molina, Jocketty/Larussa built a 40-man roster without an adequate backup catcher. Catchers can get hurt. This shouldn't catch them by surprise when it happens.

Mulder was signed hurt.

Reyes. Thompson. Kip Wells. Mike Maroth. These guys have hurt the team and aren't injured. Who signed them? Who kept playing them? This was a seriously flawed team. The worst Cardinals team in our lifetimes in terms of run differential. If you give Larussa and Jocketty credit for the good years, you have to give them credit for the bad ones. The team has been declining in terms of runs scored and allowed for more than one season. This is not due to a couple of flukey injuries in one season. There are significant, worsening problems.

Larussa and Jocketty both had many good years with the club. But I don't think the club is a good match for their skills anymore.

by tarakas on Sep 24, 2007 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Overreacting much?
You seem content to negate all those good years with this bad one.  Personally this season wasn't that bad, if anything with all that has happened I would have expected a 100 loss season and we aren't getting that so I am pleased by that.  I think Tony has earned the right to stay.

by StLHugo on Sep 24, 2007 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those good-for-nothings
Failing to stock the 25-man roster with a Cy Young winner; two all-star, gold glove corner infielders; and a centerfielder with a 150 OPS+ to build depth behind those four players we already had in case they got injured.

It's easy to bitch about how badly the season went, but even with hindsight at our disposal, it's hard to say how Walt could have constructed this roster that much better than he did with the budget and commitments we had going into the winter—and the 29 other teams he would've had to outbid for whatever players you think would have helped.

It'll be a fun exercise in a week or two, no doubt.

by liam on Sep 24, 2007 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

im convinced
tarakas is the only person on this thing with any sense at all

how can you guys say that arguably the worst cards team in history should keep the same manager next year because hes 'earned the right'?

two straight years of absolutely awful pitching and the pitching coach has no worries about his job security

and INJURIES, even last year this team only won 83 games and they did absolutely nothing to improve upon that.

we have no budget? a single season attendance record and we have no budget? none of this makes any sense.

tony has already said he wants miguel cairo back next year, a sign that tony needs to MOVE ON.

FRUSTRATION IS TURNING TO ANGER

by Dankston on Sep 24, 2007 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Two better sources predicting TLR's return
are Jim Lehland and Albert Pujols.  They probably have as good of a read on TLR as anyone.

by nycardfan on Sep 24, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anybody catch
Milton Bradley getting thrown to the ground by Bud Black?  Apparently it might have ended Bradley's season a week early.  Is there any other case in baseball history of a player being injured by his own manager?

Link:  http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/wires/09/23/2010.ap.bbn.padres.bradley.ejected.01 73/

by stl tyler on Sep 24, 2007 9:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Story in DP
The Denver Post article about the Rockies that lboros linked has something about it, I thought it was funny that the manager tackled him to save the Ump.  Youtube video yet?

by StLHugo on Sep 24, 2007 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't realize
That Denver Post link was about the same story.  I didn't see anything on youtube.  There's a video on espn.com of Bradley explaining his actions, but they don't actually show the fight.  And most of it's bleeped out.

by stl tyler on Sep 24, 2007 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not same story
The DP link isn't about that it just talks about it since the Rockies were playing the Padres that day.

That article is about how hot the Rockies are, how they are hazing the rookies and how as a team they are picking each other up.  I really respect them for the way they are playing right now and that article is a good one.

by StLHugo on Sep 24, 2007 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also
The title of that article/video pretty much nails it.

by stl tyler on Sep 24, 2007 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

his explosion may have been a bit much,
but why was the ump egging him on?

by jeff abs on Sep 24, 2007 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

imo there's been
too much umpire involvement this season.  It seems there's a few "renegade" umps who enjoy being in the action and antagonize players to get their faces in the highlights.  The commissioner's office should squelch this issue before it gets worse and puts another black eye on MLB.

by hit and run on Sep 24, 2007 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1
antagonize players and managers.  I think they need a fuller reveiw across the board, looking at their behavior as well as their performance in making calls.  The umpiring this year for us as well as others has been often rediculous this year.

by nycardfan on Sep 24, 2007 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

from what I read
the umpire didn't egg him on.  He said he did but, according to what I read, that wasn't true.  When he came to the plate the home plate umpire said something to him like "one of the umpires told me you threw the bat toward me after your last AB.  Watch where you throw the bat."  Perfectly justifiable, IMO.

When Bradley got to first, he turned to the first base ump and asked him if he had told Runge that Bradley threw the bat in his direction and the first base ump said yes.  Then Bradley went, well, Milton Bradley on him.  

Bradley could've let it go and, in the article I read, all the first base ump did was answer Bradley's question.  He didn't provoke Bradley; Bradley was looking for a fight and got one.

"As Bradley walked to the plate in the eighth inning, he and umpire Brian Runge talked for about 25 seconds. Bradley said later the conversation concerned Runge's accusation that Bradley had tossed his bat in the vicinity of Runge after the umpire called Bradley out on strikes in the fifth inning.

Bradley said Runge told him that fellow umpires said Bradley had thrown the bat toward the umpire.

After Bradley reached first base, he asked Winters if he was the umpire who accused him of tossing the bat, and Bradley said Winters said he had. The player and umpire then engaged in a heated discussion, and Black raced from the dugout to try to save his player."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bb/5158744.html

by chuckb on Sep 24, 2007 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not what i heard
the story i heard, or the comment anyway, by the first base coach meacham, was that the first base umpire was basically trying to get under bradley's skin

and according to espn first take this morning, meacham even said that one of the things the umpire said could be considered a racial remark

this is for sure he said/he said, and as they also said on that espn show, todd helton is the only neutral party who knows exactly what was said

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Sep 24, 2007 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

really?
I wonder if Bobby Meacham, Bradley's first base coach, happened to mention whether or not Bradley asked Winters about throwing the bat when he got to first?

Perhaps, Winters said, "Yeah, and don't ever do it again.  We don't like being shown up!"  If so, it was an unnecessary response but doesn't absolve Bradley, as some here seem to be trying to do.  Bradley's in a pennant race with 1 week left in the season, and he said, "Fuck it!  I'm going to get myself suspended."  It was a selfish act, w/o any regard for his team or his teammates.  He should've known better.

Why even ask the question?  Does it matter?  His job, right then, was to do what he could to score a run to get his team back in the ballgame.  If he asked the question -- and the Houston Chronicle, with the story from the AP, said he did -- he was looking for a confrontation -- an unnecessary one at that.  I don't know what Bobby Meacham said in trying to defend his outfielder and maybe Winters reacted inappropriately.  But Bradley should've been focused on 1 thing, and 1 thing only -- scoring.  Instead, he wanted to know who said what and why they said it.

In doing so, he got injured and will be suspended during the last week of the season with his team in a pennant race.  To blame this on the umpire, as some are too often willing to do, is more than a little misguided.

by chuckb on Sep 24, 2007 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even
if Bradley did ask the ump about the bat-throwing thing, it doesn't justify an ump using a racial slur.  

In the video I watched, both Bradley and the ump were engaged in verbal sparring.  In fact, it appeared that Bradley tried to drop it and even took his lead-off before calling time out.  

The ump was likely egging Bradley on, no matter what the esteemed Houston Chronicle or the AP says.  Who were the sources in that article?  Bradley is the only person they quote.  Did you write that article, housoncardinal?

Further, I don't think discussing the bat incident is inappropriate.  A player would want to make sure the air is cleared so that they were getting a fair shake from the ump.  Now, I'm not saying that Bradley handled it properly or nicely.  I'm just saying that the ump looks less than innocent in all of this.

Should Bradley have let it drop?  Yes.  He could've filed a complaint after the game and gotten his 1st base coach and Helton to back him up.  Instead, he pulled a Milton Bradley.  But that doesn't excuse the umpire from being out of line, too.

by spants on Sep 24, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sorry...
that i didnt respond earlier i had been gone all day

from the comment i saw from meacham, he never said if the question was asked, but i am assuming it was

from seeing the play, reading about it, and hearing bradley's response after the game, here is what i would say happened:

runge asked bradley at the plate about the bat throw, this upset bradley because he claims he didnt throw the bat at all, he then goes to first, and asked the first base umpire if he told runge that, i think winters said he did, and they jawed back and forth a bit about it, bradley takes his lead, and at some point i think winters said whatever meacham said was racial, and that is when bradley went back to first, called time, and all hell broke loose

now, even if this is exactly what happened, it doesnt make bradley right in doing what he did, but i do wonder if the ump would have been as into the whole thing if it were someone other than bradley? another thing about the incident i would have liked to see was the at-bat before to see if he really threw the bat or not

personally, i think bradley and the ump should both be suspended

as far as you saying he shouldnt have even asked winters the question, i think he had the right to do so if he DIDNT throw the bat, if he did, then milton was the one trying to stir it up by asking the question

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Sep 24, 2007 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bradley's case is
a terrible example of antagonistic umpires - given his history, we don't know how much provoking there was.  But my statement stands - I can think of several instances where plate umpires followed batters toward the dugout or base umpires yelled at players.  Actions like that from umpires should not be tolerated at all by the league.

The best umpires walk away from players with heated tempers, instead of fanning the flames.  Those are also the umpires you don't see in the highlight clips.

by hit and run on Sep 24, 2007 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The fact is
if you read the story, Bradley, when getting to first base, asked Winters the question.  Winters didn't start the conversation -- didn't try to provoke Bradley.  There may be times when what you say happens.  I was at a game in Houston when the home plate umpire did exactly that w/ Mike Matheny -- kept pushing him and pushing him until Matheny got up and asked him about it.  Next thing you know, Matheny's ejected and so is either Tony or Duncan, I forget which.

But in this case, Bradley started the confrontation.  And that's what (I thought) we were talking about -- this circumstance.  Bradley was 100% wrong, no matter what the umpire said to him b/c he started the conversation when he should've just let it die.  They're in a pennant race w/ 1 week left and Bradley was more concerned w/ what an umpire had said about his bat throwing than in staying in the game and helping his team win it.  In fact, he was more concerned w/ what 1 umpire said than in playing in the next several, as he's sure to be suspended.  

You refer to "actions like that" from the umpire.  I'm wondering which actions you're referring to b/c, as the story clearly implies, Winters' actions involved answering Bradley's question.  "I was the one who told Runge you threw the bat at him."  That was Winters' contribution to this.  If he said it like, "Yeah, I told Runge that.  Don't ever do it again!"  it still doesn't justify Bradley's actions.  Bradley began the incident by asking Winters about it.  Those are the facts as they've been reported.  He was wrong to do so b/c he had to know that it would lead to a confrontation that would only hurt the club during a pennant race.

So stand by your comment that umpires are too often the aggressor.  I'll stand by the story from the AP as reported in the Houston Chronicle that this one was started by Bradley.

by chuckb on Sep 24, 2007 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

from buster olney's blog
"Padres first base coach Bobby Meacham says that first-base umpire Mike Winters baited Milton Bradley into the confrontation that led to Bradley's injury. If Meacham's version of events is accurate, including the suggestion that Winters used a phrase that had racial overtones, this will be a serious test for Major League Baseball in its handling of its umpires."

by willievinceterry on Sep 24, 2007 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your Mattheny
example is a much better one than Bradley's, given their histories.  I don't believe Bradley any more than you, and I'm not trying to justify his actions in this case.  It's just what started this discussion.  

I've felt this way about umps for a while.  I want to see the league take a stand against umpires in general who exacerbate arguments.  The ump's job is to diffuse the situation, not fan the flames.

Players need to act like professionals as well, and they are the cause of the problem most of the time.  But player attitude is more difficult to address, and the responsibility for that would fall to team management.

by hit and run on Sep 24, 2007 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Milton Bradley's Temperament
Based on his explosive temper history while on the field (I can't say I know anything at this point about his off-field behavior), I worry that we might be reading about good ol' Milton in the paper someday on an assault charge, domestic abuse charge, or worse...

I hope he gets some help before it destroys him or someone else.

"This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains."

by AustinBOB on Sep 24, 2007 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

most recently
jayson stark reported that he tore his acl and is in fact done for the season.

by sdesserman on Sep 24, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's to my ElBirdo's famly
     Life is a crazy thing, and who knows when I will next be able to post some thoughts, but, for now, I wish to give everyone my heartfelt thanks for your thoughts and love of this great team and this great game.  A couple of thoughts in no particular order.  We are so blessed to be able to watch one of the greatest batsmen ever.  Lets hope Albert can regain his health... then watch the magic.  Man my heart bleeds for Scottie.  Such a warrior and magnificent talent.  Let's hope his body can catch up to his heart.  God I love this game.  Look at Marlon Anderson's stats.....  Back to the playoffs for him. Look at Marquis's stats...... workhorse for us, back in the playoffs.  Man I wish we had kept "the tongue" at second.  He had a good year for a dud team.  Izzy shone all year until we were done.   He was nails.  Rick, Chris, and the kid at third... some great hope for the future. Remember, "Baseball is pitching, pitching and more pitching" .....and to my namesake. Your defense is unparalleled, and you made your anemic regular season batting contribution, for the regular season more respectable.  Now just reach down and give us some more pop.  Hell, you are certainly wide enough... heho. All the best!

by Yadier on Sep 24, 2007 11:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The all-time runs allowed record
I think, is safe.  We will have Wainwright and Looper going twice this week -- no Wells or Reyes, except in relief.  Only 1 Thompson and 1 Pineiro.  We stink, but we'll manage not to set that illustrious record.

As for the Dodgers, it seems that Jeff Kent doesn't realize that players like Loney and Matt Kemp are the only reason why they stayed close for so long.  The young players are the best players on that team.  If they'd played the entire season, rather than playing Garciaparra, Pierre, and Gonzalez far too frequently, they might be in the playoff hunt.

So maybe the young'uns do smile too much in the dugout or listen to their music too loudly, but they're also the reason why Jeff Kent has played meaningful games this late in the season.  He should remember that the next time he decides to pop off!

by chuckb on Sep 24, 2007 11:57 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If the Cubs sign A-Rod...
I don't  think i'll be able to watch baseball next year.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 24, 2007 12:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

AROD
How can the Cubs afford A-Rod?  They have a massive payroll already.  It would probably put them ahead of the Yanks & Bo Sox

by ICbirdfan on Sep 24, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Cubs at $100M this year.
The Red Sox have a $150M payroll; Yankees are close to $200M.  Unless they sign him to a $50M/ year deal, I don't see how they'd get ahead of the Red Sox or Yanks.
500- What it takes enough to win at Rummy, at Indy and in the NL Central.

by Zubin on Sep 24, 2007 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lots of backloading though
Here's the CHN salary commitments for the next 5 years- data taken from a post at MLBtraderumors with OP's ARod salary speculation removed:

2008 ~ 98M to 14 players
2009 ~ 90M to 8 players
2010 ~ 80M to 6 players
2011 ~ 53M to 3 players
2012 ~ 36M to 2 players

It's going to be very tough for them to take on a $30M/year salary in the 2008-2010 timeframe.  

"but the rain is so real, lord; and the rainbows pretend..."

by SleepyCA on Sep 24, 2007 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If they signed ARod
like Sleepy says, they will be playing in the $140+ payroll range:

Looking at the tables I put together a week ago and tweaking it to include ARod.

2008

ARod     (32) $30   M
Zambrano (27) $15   M
Soriano  (32) $13   M
D Lee    (32) $13   M
Ramirez  (30) $14   M
Lilly    (32) $ 7   M
Marquis  (29) $ 6.4 M
Jones    (33) $ 5   M
Derosa   (33) $ 4.8 M
Blanco   (36) $ 2.8 M
Total         $ 111 M

That gives the Cubs 3 starting pitchers 2/3 rds of the outfield and the entire infield.

2009

ARod     (33) $30   M
Zambrano (28) $17.8 M
Soriano  (33) $16   M
D Lee    (33) $13   M
Ramirez  (31) $15.7 M
Lilly    (33) $12   M
Marquis  (30) $10   M
Derosa   (34) $ 5.5 M
Total         $120  M

That gives the Cubs 3 starting pitchers, 1/3rd of the outfield and the entire infield.

2010

Arod     (34) $30   M
Zambrano (29) $17.8 M
Soriano  (34) $18   M
D Lee    (34) $13   M
Ramirez  (32) $15.7 M
Lilly    (34) $12   M
Total         $106.5 M

That gives them 2 starting pitchers,  1 OF and 3 IF.

2011


ARod     (35) $30   M
Zambrano (30) $17.8 M
Soriano  (35) $18   M
Ramirez  (33) $14.6 M
Total         $80.4 M

A pitcher, an outfield, 2 infielders.

Unless they really think Marshall, Hill, Soto and Pie are the 'future' for their big league club, they'll have to operate for a few years at $140+ to fill out the roster.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 24, 2007 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

man that Soriano contract
is gonna hurt in the end.

by sdrone on Sep 24, 2007 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

soto is a wild card
the kid looks very, very good, at least with the stick.  Pie is a solid "meh" but with the lineup they would have they can afford to commit one position to an average outfielder with potential...

I also think they can consider Hill a foundation of their rotation for the next few years.  He's been great.  However, both Hill and Marshall will probably be super-2 arb eligible after 2008 (potentially Marmol as well, though he may slip through to '09).  

They also owe Dempster 5.5M, Howry $4M and Trachsel $3M for 2008, which is technically 5-6 starting pitchers, a closer, IF and OF and one reliever for about $133M.  They'd still need bench players and additional relievers, so $140M is a reasonable estimate for '08.

anyway, don't know what the point of this was other than to fill time at work.  Bleh.  

"but the rain is so real, lord; and the rainbows pretend..."

by SleepyCA on Sep 24, 2007 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Next year
     If the Cubs sign Arod.... Just watch our cream come to the top.  It will be the best thing that ever happened to to the Birds on the Bat.  the entire baseball world will be glued to the Central and watching the brilliance of Albert, ("the best hitter in the world"  as said by Joe Morgan, and everyone in STL)  Scottie, still one of the greatest 3rd basemen ever.  Jimmy,,,  Imagine if he is healthy. Rick, Chris Yadier...  I could go on and on......  Bring on the best. It will make us better.

by Yadier on Sep 24, 2007 12:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

hmmm
I'm sorry, but if they sign A-rod and we sign Carlos Silva and Juan Uribe, I won't have much hope for next year.

by Minerball30 on Sep 24, 2007 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Juan Uribe!!!
NO.................

Juan Uribe is awful!

Please tell me they are not even considering him.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 24, 2007 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

give up
give up on jimmy, he will never be what he was in '04 ever again

by Dankston on Sep 24, 2007 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I killed a bear...
with my BEAR hands! hahaha
Who knew that many people live in Puerto Rico?

by Yadi4MVP on Sep 24, 2007 2:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Rolen or Tony?
Who ya got?  It appears all 'sideways' talk indications is that should LaRussa return, Rolen will as to be traded by the team.

So, who do you prefer?  Would you prefer to have a HOF-defensive 3B who may be done offensively or may have finally had the surgery he should have had 18 months ago.

Or would you prefer a vidictive, fingerprints on everything HOF manager who has trouble handling the development of young players and clearly holds grudges in a hypocritic way?

With the trading of Rolen, don't immediately think that getting rid of him clears him off payroll.  I would imagine any deal involving the damaged goods Rolen would involve the Cardinals picking up atleast $18 M of the $36 M owed him.  That clears about $6 M a year off of payroll and forces the Cardinals to find 3 new IF (3rd base, 2nd Base, SS) one of which will have to provide atleast doubles power and the ability to drive in 80 runs or so.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 24, 2007 2:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What?
All I've seen is unsourced yapping on forums.  Heh.

by sdrone on Sep 24, 2007 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Post-Dispatch
La Russa's Future: Will he stay or will he go?
By Joe Strauss
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
09/23/2007
[...]
La Russa met with third baseman Scott Rolen prior to Friday night's elimination. Their relationship remains cool enough that some close to the player believe Rolen may ask out of his no-trade protection if La Russa remains. Rolen had little to say after a 20-minute, open-door exchange.

"Informative and honest," Rolen said, stopping there.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 24, 2007 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

some close to the player
is unsourced yapping....  that could be Bernie for all we know.  He thinks he's close to Rolen.  Who knows whether Rolen thinks the same thing.  The same could be said for any other yapper...

by nycardfan on Sep 24, 2007 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Joe Strauss
doesn't strike me as the type to do that sort of thing.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 24, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

even if you grant Strauss
some special privilege to Rolen's closest friends, he still is simply saying that some unnamed persons have INFERRED that because his relationship with TLR is cool, Rolen MAY ask out of his no-trade protection.  No one has said that Rolen has told them this.  

It could turn out to be true; it could be pure speculation.  I think Strauss is generally reliable, but he's really admitting that he's speculating here based upon other people's speculations.  He's not making much of a claim.

by nycardfan on Sep 24, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Plus
there needs to exist some team that wants to take Rolen, which isn't a sure thing after the last two years.  

The Cardinals would have to eat a huge chunk of the contract to get him out of here.  Then would have to pay even more to replace him, considering the cost of adding an additional power-hitting third baseman.

The end result is a lose-lose.  Rolen looks like a complaining and declining devalued commodity and the Cards have to foot a huge bill.  I don't see it happening from either end.

by enoscountry on Sep 24, 2007 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's interesting
I'd choose Rolen.  Of course, you could drag this out for a couple of months to see how Rolen's shoulder is.  I think we'd probably get crap in return for him, unfortunately.

by sdrone on Sep 24, 2007 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rolen
People don't understand it is not important for Rolen and Larussa to love each other.

Rolen putting up good numbers and being healthy will squash any talk of him and Larussa not getting along.  Just like Edmonds earlier in the year.  When players underperform it is amazing how many stories you hear.

I don't know if you pay attention to how many crazy stories there have been about Zambrano this year.  Well it comes down to him underperforming.  

I can guarantee you nothing has changed with Carlos, Scott, or Jimmy.  The thing is performance on the field leads to more on field coverage and less off field garbage that probably has little to no baring on the players performance.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 24, 2007 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can play that game too
Would you rather have a manager who has only three losing seasons (including this one) in his twelve years here, seven playoff appearances, six NLCS appearances, two World Series appearances, and one World Series championship?

Or would you rather have an over-the-hill, oft-injured, overpaid third baseman who might hit ten homeruns next year?

If La Russa leaves, don't immediately think that getting rid of him makes us a better team.  I would imagine that Joe Girardi would be the only guy who could come in here and do a good job of picking up where Tony left off.  Jose Oquendo just doesn't have the experience.

Truth be told, I'm somewhere in the middle (OK, leaning a little toward keeping Tony).  But you can make the facts as one-sided as you want to try and get people to subscribe to your school of thought.  I just thought I'd point out the other end of the argument.

Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 24, 2007 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Duncan vs. Duncan
This just came across the wire.

Chris blames his hernia on Shelley and their competitive workouts:

Link

by enoscountry on Sep 24, 2007 2:40 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Odd
I assume they have'nt worked out together since the season started.

by sdrone on Sep 24, 2007 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

those 2 are quite the charecters
the whole autograph incident, duncan gashing his head "jumping down the stairs", chris's repeated loss of grip of the bat, at times spectacular yet often times clumsy outfield play, the giant wad of goo in his mouth, and now they are doing their best hans and franz impersonation. all i can say is wow.

by erik on Sep 24, 2007 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pump you up!
Nice...
500- What it takes enough to win at Rummy, at Indy and in the NL Central.

by Zubin on Sep 24, 2007 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Plus all the humping
The brothers Duncan seem like a lot of fun.
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Sep 24, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What
exactly are you saying?

by spants on Sep 24, 2007 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chris
in his Haines boxer briefs and beer goggles dry humping the World Series trophey in the locker room.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 24, 2007 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just
wanted to know why Fritz thought Dunc's humping seemed fun.  Don't think I've forgotten that photo, though I'll always delight in seeing it.  So classy.

by spants on Sep 24, 2007 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This'll give anyone a hernia
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Sep 24, 2007 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It still gets me every time
He has quite the career as a porn star once his baseballing is done.  Look at how serious his expression is.
Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 24, 2007 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha
That is the greatest picture ever!

by brindled on Sep 24, 2007 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The
next photo is awesome, too as Dunc has decided to lose his shirt (and pants, I think) and take a photo with his dad.  You think that pic is in the Duncan living room?

by spants on Sep 24, 2007 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Offseason
Well Larry, all I can say is it looks to be an interesting offseason for the Cardinals.  Nice and honest assesment.
500- What it takes enough to win at Rummy, at Indy and in the NL Central.

by Zubin on Sep 24, 2007 3:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks to the Cards...
...for one more great memory from this season. The ninth inning last night made me very happy for such a "meaningless" game, and it only could have been better if Pujols had homered (again) off Lidge, continuing his ownership of him.

But seeing Ankiel get the GW hit was pretty sweet too. This was a season to forget for a lot of reasons but last night was fun. Thanks to the Redbirds for it.

by birdjam on Sep 24, 2007 3:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh yeah...
and I was at the game Saturday, on the Coca Cola Bridge, and saw someone wearing a VEB shirt. It was pretty cool.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 24, 2007 4:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Matt Clement
Is Matt Clement going to be a free agent?  I think he could still be a pretty effective pitcher in the NL if he can get healthy.  I woulnd't mind seeing the Cards take a flyer on him.  How good could this rotation be at max potential:

Carp, Wainwright, Clement, Mulder, Reyes/Looper

Of course we would need at least one more guy as a place holder until Carp and Mulder get healthy.  Anyway, there don't seem to be a lot of really good free agent pitchers out there, but this was one guy I would be interested in.  

On anotehr note, I hope Jocketty stays and La Russa goes.  He's been a great manager, but I think a change could be a positive thing.  Maybe Girardi - someone who likes having young talent.  I hope we sign Jocketty to a long term deal and let him pick the new manager.  Just my two cents.

by Toddius396 on Sep 24, 2007 4:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Tweak to that rotation
Carp, Wainwright, Clement, Looper, Mulder/Reyes
Re-acquire Edgar Renteria

by Mr Redbird on Sep 24, 2007 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Surely we're taking enough
flyers on injured pitchers.

by sdrone on Sep 24, 2007 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no more injured pitchers
Sorry but STL is not in need of more injured pitchers at this point.  

They need to find the best "healthy" FA pitcher and get to bidding on that guy.  Really they need to make sure he is an inning eater.

Matt Clement has not been that good since he was on the Cubs. They traded him wisely, he was pretty good for Boston but that line drive off his head put him in a downward spiral.

STL just can't commit money to anymore injured players.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 24, 2007 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with you on that......
the only seriously durable pitcher on the free agent list this year is Livian Hernandez.  He's slightly above average, goes at least 7 innings every time out, never misses a turn, and will occasionally pitch you a gem.  Of course, his arm could fall off the moment you sign him, but IMO he's the only one availabe that has that track record.  The only problem is his groundball rate the last few years has been between 35-40%.  Nevermind.

by jillsinmo on Sep 24, 2007 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pitching
I feel pretty good bout Wainer.  I feel 90% sure he will pitch similar to this year ERA could be about .50 higher at most.

I fell about 70% sure Looper can pitch next year like this year.

There is no other pitcher I feel good about next year.

It is not good to feel only 70% sure about your #2 starter either.  The Cardinals main issue is pitching.  I don't know what can be done.  It will be real hard because everyone wants pitching.
I say FA is the only option because the Cards would have to give up talent to get a trade for a pitcher.  I think the best option is overspend on a FA pitcher.  If they don't pan out is it salary.  But if you trade someone good and the pitcher is bad you are in trouble.

by ICbirdfan on Sep 24, 2007 5:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So where are they gonna dump
salary?  Eck's contract is only giving you $4.5m.  Edmond's salary goes down $3m.  Carp's goes up $2m.  APu gets $1m more.  Looper goes up by $1m.  Kennedy goes up by $1m.

Damn, is it already time to start a salary spreadsheet?

by sdrone on Sep 24, 2007 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

insurance
The details generally aren't made public, but the Cards will get something for Carp and Encarnacion (and perhaps Mulder, although the official site recently said that his arm is uninusured).

Wells, Taguchi, Eckstein, Wilson contracts add up to about $10-11 million

by tdawg on Sep 24, 2007 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I actually
had the opportunity to meet with Dayton Moore and Dean Taylor.  Not that this makes me an expert but they responded to the insurance question by saying that sometimes you do it, but often it isn't worth it unless you are talking about a really big contract, because premiums are so high.  I doubt we have insurance on Encarnacion.  I could be wrong, but based on the way those guys were putting it, it's unlikely.  

Pretty neat experience, talking baseball with those guys.  Also the Director of Operations was there, but I forget his name.  Cool stuff.

by Toddius396 on Sep 24, 2007 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I envy you.......I have been watching
from afar the things the Royals are trying to do, and am mightily impressed with many of the moves they have made.  They have drafted well, and are doing what a small market team has to do to improve.  I hope they can keep the management/players together long enough to see some improvement for them in the standings.

by jillsinmo on Sep 24, 2007 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nick Leva
Who knew he was still around?
500- What it takes enough to win at Rummy, at Indy and in the NL Central.

by Zubin on Sep 24, 2007 9:34 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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