Game 144 Open Thread: September 13, 2007
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6-16, 5.65 |
14-4, 3.64 |
the cards are now 0-6 since the ankiel-hgh allegation came out. likewise, toronto is 0-5 since troy glaus was unmasked as a steroid purchaser, while the orioles are 0-3 since the jay gibbons/steroid revelation. last season, you might recall, the diamondbacks were in first place by a game and a half the day the jason grimsley affidavit hit the papers (june 7); they promptly lost 5 in a row and 20 of their next 23 to fall all the way to the bottom of the division.
rather obviously, these sorts of disclosures are a bit of a distraction. of particular note, 3 of the 4 teams in question abruptly stopped hitting after their clubhouse was linked to peds:
cards (6 games): .235 / .308 / .405
jays (5 games): .218 / .272 / .309
o's (3 games): .283 / .315 / .491
* * * * * * * * *
i and many others have been arguing for weeks that anthony reyes' won-loss record is misleading. that's not to say, however, that it means nothing; like every stat it captures a slice of reality, while missing other parts. (for some of the other parts, i highly recommend red baron's diary about reyes.) at 2-14, reyes how owns one of the worst single-season winning percentages (10 decisions or more) of any pitcher in franchise history. here are the rankings:- john raleigh, 1909: .111 (1-10)
- anthony reyes, 2007: .125 (2-14)
- danny jackson, 1995: 143 (2-12)
- gus thompson, 1906: .154 (2-11)
- wish egan, 1906: .182 (2-9)
there are way too many guys on this list to name them all. but if we winnow it to include only guys with reyes' current record (2-14) or worse, it gets a lot shorter --- fewer than 30. and if we further restrict it to pitchers who, like reyes, were used predominantly as starting pitchers in their terrible year (at least 2/3 of their appearances), it's a very exclusive roster --- just 6 guys:
| year | age | team | w-l | era | era+ | avg+ | obp+ | slg+ | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| anthony reyes | 2007 | 25 | stl | 2-14 | 5.69 | 76 | 103 | 102 | 93 |
| jim abbott | 1996 | 28 | cal | 2-18 | 7.48 | 66 | 90 | 90 | 88 |
| jose deleon | 1985 | 24 | pit | 2-19 | 4.70 | 77 | 109 | 96 | 105 |
| matt keough | 1979 | 23 | oak | 2-17 | 5.04 | 81 | 86 | 87 | 90 |
| ken reynolds | 1972 | 25 | pha | 2-15 | 4.26 | 84 | 97 | 96 | 84 |
| jack nabors | 1916 | 28 | pha (al) | 1-20 | 3.47 | 82 | n/a | n/a | n/a |
reynolds and nabors barely pitched in the big leagues again after their face-plant seasons, while jim abbott (who had a string of excellent years behind him) missed most of the next two seasons and only made another 20 mlb starts. but keough and deleon both provide at least a little hope. the season after going 2-17, keough went 16-13 and finished 4th in the league in era. he followed that up with a solid year in 1981. unfortunately, it didn't last; he walked 101 men in 1982 and lost 18 games, then hurt his arm and was out of the league by age 30.
deleon is the most comparable pitcher to reyes on this list. he reaped his banner crop of losses at about the same age as anthony, and at about the same point in his career (3d season); note also that both pitchers' won-loss and era disagree sharply w/ their opponent avgs; both were better than league average in 2 of the 3 categories and close to average in the 3d category. when we look at deleon's situational splits (bless you, baseball-reference.com), we find an additional correspondence w/ reyes --- deleon in 1985 was way above league average with the bases empty but got killed with runners in scoring position. he brought that problem under control the following year and pitched pretty effectively for 6 seasons, mostly in st louis. if you're 30 or older, you remember this guy; he spent 4 1/2 years w/ the cards (1988-1992) and made 145 starts, won a league strikeout title (1989) and maintained a league-average era. he went 29-22 his first couple of years in the loo and, at age 28, seemed poised to become an all-star; but a 7-19 record in 1990 dashed those hopes, and in 1991 he contrived to win just 5 games despite finishing 6th in the league in era. in august 1992 the cardinals released him; he would make only 6 more major-league starts. . . . . all the same, deleon lasted 10 seasons after the 2-19 debacle and turned in 6 more-than-respectable years immediately following it --- a 3.60 era between 1986 and 1991.
though justifiably perceived as an underachiever, deleon nevertheless was a more-than-useful pitcher for several years. i suspect reyes will have a similar career. i doubt he will have it in st. louis.
0 recs |
296 comments
Comments
Best Team Record?
by Quel on Sep 13, 2007 9:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
reyes
>>i suspect reyes will have a similar career. i doubt he will have it in st. louis.<<
Qualifier: if LaDuncan return. Reyes will go mad attempting another year under LaDuncan. He should be traded for whatever he can fetch should the tandem return for another campaign. However, say Joe Girardi / Dyar Miller were the new Cards management team for 08, I like Reyes' chances of rebounding in the Lou.
by jjray on Sep 13, 2007 9:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He'll have to completely relearn his mechanics
I hope and pray it is his mechanics that are causing his problems and not an arm injury. A guy doesn't just lose all that velocity without a major red flag going up.
I wouldn't mind Anthony Reyes in the rotation next year...as the 'Kip Wells' of the rotation. Taking a shot on a guy who was once a promising young pitcher.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're probably right
by the red baron on Sep 13, 2007 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What really sucks
(I had totally forgotten how quickly Jim Abbott's career fell off. He was an absolute horse when he first came up.)
by Alxfritz on Sep 13, 2007 9:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Avg+ etc.
If higher is better for the pitcher then he is great in those areas, (he does have a .258/.333/.455 .787OPS line so far which isn't dismal especially compared to Wells .285/.363/.456 .819OPS or last year's Marquis .289/.364/.509 .873OPS).
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Great"
I'm a firm believer (admittedly to a fault) in era+. To me, given a decent sample size, it paints the whole picture of a pitchers season.
by Alxfritz on Sep 13, 2007 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i would agree that reyes' era+
by lboros on Sep 13, 2007 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ie, i think reyes is capable of having good years
by lboros on Sep 13, 2007 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I would agree with that.
by Alxfritz on Sep 13, 2007 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DeLeon
by Zubin on Sep 13, 2007 10:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
deleon did have that knack
by lboros on Sep 13, 2007 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And in 1989
If memory serves, isn't he among the Cardinal's all-time leaders in BAA?
He was a stud in his own way, no doubt.
by Zubin on Sep 13, 2007 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yikes
by Elvis on Sep 13, 2007 10:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
by the red baron on Sep 13, 2007 10:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Reyes' mistakes
1st inning, Griffey hit a 3-2 91MPH fastball for a single, all 6 pitches thrown were low.
3rd inning Valentine hit a 2-1 91MPH fastball that was in the middle of the plate for a single (the other 3 pitches were low)
3rd inning he hit Arroyo with a pitch that was high and tight following up on a foul off a low and away pitch (he just got too tight otherwise it looked like a great jam pitch)
4th inning Phillips hit a 3-2 82MPH changeup that was left belt high for a solo home run, all the pitches in that at bat were belt high or lower
4th inning Dunn took 4 pitches for a walk, 3 of which were at the edge of the strike zone and all of them were low
4th inning Encarnacion hit a 3-1 76 MPH curveball that was definitely a hanging curve belt high, in that AB only ball 1 on the second pitch was higher then that, also pitches 1 and 3 of that AB were both 76-77 mph curves that hit their location, pitch 1 was a call strike on the inside corner, pitch 3 was a ball on the outside corner, the homer was dead center of the plate and belt high, bad pitch and it got hammered but as Baron asked why did he start throwing curves when he really doesn't have a good curve?
4th inning Votto walks on a full count all balls were near the zone except one and all were low.
To me this gives me hope that his mistakes aren't in his "stuff" it is born from trying to have him pitch in a way that he can't. Also at this point I think the way he can handle his 4 seam and change up would make him a great reliever, why not use him as such for the remainder of the season if we don't plan to start him again?
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 10:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Reyes
- He does not have an out pitch. You absolutely have to have an out pitch to be a MLB pitcher who is worth anything.
- Poor location. It seems he has to throw alot of pitches because he does not have an out pitch. The more pitches you throw to a hitter the greater the chance you will miss on location.
Anthony just is not showing signs of getting it yet.
For example Rich Hill made his debut in 2005 and since he has pitched 56 games making 49 starts. Anthony made his debut in 2005 and has pitched 42 games while making 38 starts. Rich Hill is leaps and bounds ahead of Anthony at this point. Rich Hill has an out pitch, and seems to get ahead of a lot of batters. Also Rich Hill is not consistently down 3-0 in the fist 2 innings of the games. Yes Anthony has not gotten a lot of run support, but it is really hard to come back when your pitcher spots the other team 3 to 4 runs in first few innings of the game.
I think the ball is in Anthony's court. He flat out needs to step it up. No excuses, he is the one who needs to fix the problem. He is two years younger than Rich Hill and I want to see Anthony get things better. Hell the Cubs are dissappointed with Sean Marshall. Hell he has been way better than Reyes.
by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 11:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Lineups per gameday
Cairo 3B
Pujols 1B
Edmonds CF
Ludwick LF
Schumaker RF
Stinnett C
Wells P
Ryan 2B
Hopper CF
Keppinger SS
Griffey RF
Phillips 2B
Dunn LF
Encarnacion 3B
Votto 1B
Ross C
Harang P
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 11:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yuck
by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Albert hasn't hit a HR in 68 ABs
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i said to the wife last night
better to rest than play hurt, albert, but if he sat, who do we put at first? cairo? yadi?
by gthedamned on Sep 13, 2007 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ah yes
by gthedamned on Sep 13, 2007 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hard to imagine him ...
And yet some are still putting him in the MVP group snapshot.
by Urban Pawnee on Sep 13, 2007 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Putting Cairo in your starting lineup...
Why is Cairo starting in so many damn games? This is maddening.
(And now that I've reverse-jinxed him, I expect him to go 2-3 with a double, BB, 2 runs scored and 2 RBI...)
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially when he breaks up our best hitters
Eck
Lud
Pu
Edm
Schu
Stinn
Cairo
Kip
Ryan
That way 9-5 are all decent/solid hitters, without a black hole breaking them up.
by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barden
by Elvis on Sep 13, 2007 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thoughts
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
vs Harang and Wells
Eckstein .400 .455 .500 .955
Cairo hasn't faced him
Pujols .364 .417 .576 .992
Edmonds .207 .281 .586 .867
Ludwick 0-1
Schumaker 0-1
Stinnett 0-5
Wells 0-1
Ryan hasn't faced him
Hopper hasnt faced him
Keppinger hasnt faced him
Griffey .368 .536 1.105 1.641
Phillips .500 .500 .500 1.000
Dunn .286 .432 .514 .946
Enc .571 .667 .714 1.381
Votto hasnt faced him
Ross 1-4
Harang 1-2
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yikes
by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reyes v. Bonderman
by rajah424 on Sep 13, 2007 12:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bonderman...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Sep 13, 2007 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He had a big problem
by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He sure was.....Detroit just shut him down for
by jillsinmo on Sep 13, 2007 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reyes
Line up does not look too potent on paper, but heck maybe they will give us some good AB's.
Now I think Kip is more important than Reyes for this fact. Kip has #2 or #3 starter stuff. He needs to finish strong because I would not be too upset if he comes back next year at fair price. If he requires too much $$ then we should not resign him. His mental make up is probably worse than Anthonys.
by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good start Eck
by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 12:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
damn.
by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 12:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Looked like
by cardsgirl95 on Sep 13, 2007 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh boy
by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 12:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Way to bounce back Kip
by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the words of Mel Allen
by Alxfritz on Sep 13, 2007 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jeebus H Christ...
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 12:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Kip ecapes danger
by Valatan on Sep 13, 2007 12:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Way to recover, Kip...
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 12:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep
by Cardinal70 on Sep 13, 2007 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cards catchers
Going from Yadi to either Bennett or Stinnett (ugh) is painful.
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think a new custom
by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harang
Does our line up have a chance? Did the first inning batters have good AB's?
thanks
by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How does he look?
by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i've always referred to harang
by gthedamned on Sep 13, 2007 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Confirming
by cardsgirl95 on Sep 13, 2007 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice grab, Brendan!
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Harang
Wow. Either he's being incredibly aggressive in the strike zone, our guys are hackin' at everything close, or a little of both.
If he keeps this up, I don't like our chances.
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Kippersley vs. Keppington, round 2
by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 1:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If I were Hopper
Odds are definitely in his favor.
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Double play...
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harvey Keitel was held up
by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
0-2 on Dunn
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thank god for the double plays...
No way that can be sustained indefinitely...
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He could also start striking people out
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now would be a good time...
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hrm. Or he could toss in another walk.
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone else think
by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 1:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He is Will Farrell
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep,
anyone see a little tom hanks in ludwick?
by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has the strength of a Ludwig
by player2bnamedl8r on Sep 13, 2007 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe West knows that the curveball
Kip is a victim of his own skill. His curveball has so much bite that umpires won't call it a strike.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
once again
by gthedamned on Sep 13, 2007 1:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Kip = Playing with fire
3.0 IP
57 pitches, 28 strikes
4 H, 4 BB, 1 SO
WHIP = 2.67!!
Runs = 0
Whaaaa??!?
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Kip not throwing strikes = good?
3.1 IP
62 pitches, 41 strikes
10 H, 0 BB, 2 K
Runs = 6
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if he doesn't throw strikes, they can't hit it...
...mind being blown.....
by cardsfaninmass on Sep 13, 2007 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al's comment after Edwin's pop up
Looks like Kippy tried his hardest to give us what we're used to - mind numbing implosion.
If only, Encarnacion would've cooperated
by cardsfaninmass on Sep 13, 2007 1:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bring in Thompson or SOMEONE
by cardsfaninmass on Sep 13, 2007 1:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Another warning track shot
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Watch your back, HL...
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blame the Hammy....
by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yet another near miss
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sniffing my but again
mwhahahahaha
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
butt*
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have to agree...
by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 1:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I find it pretty incredible...
Wow.
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Leadoff hit in the bottom of the 4th
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Or how about a walk...
Gotta think BIG!
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gameday
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 1:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So is Kip
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
,,,and another walk....
by Ignatius J Reilly on Sep 13, 2007 1:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Miguel Cairo is not a MLB level player
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, at least they got the guy at 3rd
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dan's utter contempt for Kip Wells
They were talking about the Cardinals signing Kip to an extension. I thought Dan was going to lose it.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good piece of hitting there by Hopper
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey Miguel, that runs on you
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ank coulda gunned him down...
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Albert, you goofy man you
Let's make things more difficult, ya...let's do THAT.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cuz his hammy hurts
Of course, what about his elbow... Hrm...
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take the 1 spot
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ditto
Also was Ryan's catch in RF really as impressive as Mike made it out to be?
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ryan's catch in the 1st?
Not quite "top 10 highlight reel", but a solid, hustling play.
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not 1st
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right...
If that ball had dropped, it would probably have been 1 run in, plus runners on 1st and 3rd.
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is actually kind of amazing
by SleepyCA on Sep 13, 2007 1:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If you were a Reds fan
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he were a Reds fan
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harang vs Kip
Harang: 38 pitches, 26 strikes (68.4%)
Kip: 80 pitches, 42 strikes (52.5%)
LOL.
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 1:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We are being 1 hit
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 1:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
for those of you watching..
by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 1:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
50/50
He's aggressive in the strike zone, AND we're happily swinging at everything anyway.
He's made a few mistakes, but we've just missed taking advantage of them...quite a few hard hit balls that fall just short.
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks....
by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is Tony trying to get Kip 5 innings
Or is it that our bullpen in just toast?
I don't understand why he's still in there...
Egads.
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If true...
That's really scary.
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hafta say
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good lord.
This can't end well...
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bad call on the walk
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
encarnacion was 0-2
And wow, this game got out of hand fast.
by SleepyCA on Sep 13, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, a 2 run Double! Who'd a thunk it?
EVERYONE BUT TONY.
God dammit.
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
2 run HR too
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the piece de resistance...
Lovely.
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
tony's stupid gut.
by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
by CarolinaCardinal on Sep 13, 2007 2:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No kidding
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And ......
by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm done...
by Red Blazer on Sep 13, 2007 2:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
SWEEP Chicago?
by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
as bad as it is being jerked around
although they are getting less meaningful by the day... <sigh>
by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I refuse to believe...
Oh, and after the 10th hit thru 4.1, there's the move by Tony...4 batters and 1 out too damn late. Unbelievable.
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pitcher due up
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Missed my point
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't miss the point
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That logic is only appied to
by DriverZn on Sep 13, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And, in an effort to prove that Wells isn't
we move onward with Andy Cavazos
by Valatan on Sep 13, 2007 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't worry
Gotta look for positives.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, back to work for me.
Later, folks.
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 2:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Rally...Rally
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Can I make a suggestion?
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nooooooooo!!!!
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tell me again...
by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sore heel
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitcher batting 8th
by yer dog first on Sep 13, 2007 2:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The pitcher batting 8th isn't why we are losing
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm fairly sure...
Reyes and Wells, 40% of our starting rotation, are the type of guys where you feel you need to put up 6 or more runs a game to win. Combined, they are 8-30, 22 games under 500. There became a point in the season where it was no longer worthwhile to keep putting those two on the mound this year, and TLR obviously is about 2-3 months late on that one.
Even if they are the "best" guys you have, bring up some young talent and give them some experience. I don't care if they are playing A ball right now, they can't really be any worse.
by Quel on Sep 13, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
walking cairo
by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cairo
by yer dog first on Sep 13, 2007 2:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Did they just walk Cairo....
by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
how many warning track shots
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 2:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Another warning track shot
That's the key, we just have to keep getting runners to 3rd base!
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thank you AP!
by yer dog first on Sep 13, 2007 2:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Miguel
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cavazos
8.15 ERA
I guess he just fits right in with our staff. He has been absolutely terrible.
by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 2:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You have got to be kidding me...
by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
cairo
Just because you picked up Branyan and Cairo does not mean it is necessary to play them. I only play them if they are going to be on the team next year. I can not see a reason that either one fits in the plans for next year.
by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I just realized that after the 1st inning
Ryan
Eckstein
Cairo
Pujols
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Do you count pitcher as infield?
Catcher
Pitcher
Second
Short
Third
First
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1 pitch
by yer dog first on Sep 13, 2007 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Brad Thompson + Adam Dunn =
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Double play!
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn
by yer dog first on Sep 13, 2007 2:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for listening to me Dunn!
by yer dog first on Sep 13, 2007 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cards bullpen > Reds bullpen
by yer dog first on Sep 13, 2007 2:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Get on base, Jim
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 2:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
wow...
by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This team....
by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
who's going to catch
by gthedamned on Sep 13, 2007 2:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Boy.....
by Timbo02 on Sep 13, 2007 2:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
CUBS
by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 2:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You're correct...
by Ignatius J Reilly on Sep 13, 2007 2:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
even worse...
by age3in82 on Sep 13, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has anyone seen..
"Who most deserves to be in the rotation for the final three weeks?"
After almost 11,000 votes,
Wells: 7%
Maroth: 6%
Reyes: 16%
Thompson: 27%
"why not a 4 man rotation?": 43%
That about sums up our rotation.
by Quel on Sep 13, 2007 2:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
time to start...
by age3in82 on Sep 13, 2007 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Maroth
My vote goes for Rick Ankiel. Get this story:
Dude comes up as a phenom pitcher, then falls apart.
Dude comes back up as an outfielder, rakes for 2 weeks, it is revealed he did HGH (supposedly), and he falls apart again.
Dude gets back on the mound and pitches 3 perfect games in a row.
How's THAT for Hollywood.
by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wonderbrad
by CarolinaCardinal on Sep 13, 2007 2:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jeff the cowbuy brantley
i was just curious your opinions he said nothing that wasnt true just wondered if it were crossing a line..cant recall MIke, or jack being that negative on another player..Againj not that you sugar coat the truth they are professionals
by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 2:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well..
by Quel on Sep 13, 2007 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i said that already
by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Might be a tad unprofessional
It doesn't irritate me that he said something like that, it irritates me that I can't think of a single reason why it isn't a well deserved comment.
by Quel on Sep 13, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't care
There... I've said my piece and now I will get off of my soapbox.
by cardsgirl95 on Sep 13, 2007 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
can't recall
by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, i've heard dan and al
by ortic jones on Sep 13, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
see thats why i was asking
and very complimentary to the cards bullpen
by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cairo
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 2:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pitchers
- Wainer
- Looper
- Franklin
- Izzy
- Springer
It is pointless to argue because both would suck to have.
by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 2:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
someone who agrees with me..
by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
punchinjudy
Let's all argue about the line up use.
- Albert nees to sit out a few days. Let him play the Cubs series because after that the Cards should be further out. At that point Albert can get some rest. The only reason Albert needs to play is if he has to up his stats to get more $$$
- Stop playing Cairo and Branyon now. Those two will not be with the team next year so stop playing them.
- I want to see Brendan Ryan in every game unless he is hurt.
- Why not play Barden? I don't see how he has a future with the big club but might as well see what he looks like I guess.
by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pujols
by Cardinal70 on Sep 13, 2007 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think lineup is different
i could be wrong but when the seem to be mor differences in positions p[layers than our vast array fo sub par pitchers
by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmm
by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i doubt that
by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is Cairo getting all these AT BATS?
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 3:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ankiel just forgot how many outs there were
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 3:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
not alot
by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Circus music
by Alxfritz on Sep 14, 2007 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
TLRS move...didnt see it mentioned here
i wish i could have called and said its because Crazy tony is back.
by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
First non sac fly
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 3:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
*&%^ the heck?
c'mon ludwick!
by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 3:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They're still...
by guayzimi on Sep 13, 2007 3:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
how close was lud's fly out?
by tomsteele on Sep 13, 2007 3:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yadi
by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 3:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
is this place
http://www.rankmytattoos.com/Illinois/Canton/15002.html
by Supergus on Sep 13, 2007 3:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gotta love
by Cardinal70 on Sep 13, 2007 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ahhhhh
by bdub78 on Sep 13, 2007 3:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll take em
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nah
of course i will be going.
the problem is, one of my buddies was running his mouth off about two months ago about how the brewers were a lock to win the central and i said i thought the cubs had a better chance. he gave me 5 to 1 odds on a $40 bet, so it is tough to root to be a spoiler.
nonetheless, i decided to suck it up. another year of disappointment for the flubs is worth 200 bones.
by bdub78 on Sep 13, 2007 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DAMN EMOTIONAL PULLING!!
by StLHugo on Sep 13, 2007 3:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cubs & Brewers
by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 3:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Brewers don't play
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How are we the only Major League team in
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 3:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ludwick and Rick aren't injured
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Elimination number
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 3:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
what's the magic number?
by stlcardinalsfang on Sep 13, 2007 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
re: magic number
Please don't ask me why I know that. :-)
by SmashedAtoms on Sep 13, 2007 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe we can get Larry to put the Elimination
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This team, in the season's eleventh hour ...
by Urban Pawnee on Sep 13, 2007 3:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They are dead tired
They were never a great baseball team but they are running on fumes right now pitching and hitting-wise.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True natue?
Last Sunday we fielded a team of Stinnett, Cairo, Ryan, Branyan, Schumaker, Taguchi, Ludwick, and Brad Thompson. The baseball gods don't like that.
by guayzimi on Sep 13, 2007 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hopefully the cubs win tonight
by stlcardinalsfang on Sep 13, 2007 3:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cubs Series
I will still follow the Cards but try to not to get too emotionally attached.
Heck maybe all the Cards need is some good ol' home cookin to get things going again.
by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 3:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
even if they are out of it
by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man I'm NOT looking forward to this series
by sdrone on Sep 13, 2007 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ah, just tell 'em
by acham8206 on Sep 13, 2007 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm going to both games
by tnek5 on Sep 13, 2007 3:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Rack up another loss to Tony
by nycardfan on Sep 13, 2007 3:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The cowboy
by punchinjudy on Sep 13, 2007 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow
by Pujols on Sep 13, 2007 3:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If not careful
by Cardinal70 on Sep 13, 2007 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony
If we have a starting pitcher go 4 innings and only allow 1 run, Tony needs to yank his butt. There is only one starting pitcher who has proven over a season he does not implode out of no where. That is Wainwright. I thought the AZ move was good, don't ever get greedy with Kip and 90% of the staff. Besides Wainer, Franklin, Izzy, and Springer our pitchers have show they have the ability to go to crap really fast. Tony needs to start yanking guys. I don't care how they look. Our pitchers have not earned the right to be give extra hitters. If they are giving you more than you expected pull em. There is enough data to prove it.
Tony seems to get this soft side where he does not want to "hurt feeling" or "create wins". This is not an individual game. Your pitcher have no confidence anyway. I think 4 innings would make Kip feel great at this point.
by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 3:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
6 BB?
by brindled on Sep 13, 2007 3:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
10 hits, 6 walks
by TheFranchise9 on Sep 13, 2007 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously though,
by Handsome Jimmy on Sep 13, 2007 4:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How many innings is the pen handling over
Is TLR maybe trying desperately here and there to wring an inning or 2 from the starter instead of letting everyone but Wainwright pitch 4 innings then destroying the pen?
by sdrone on Sep 13, 2007 4:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
SDRONE
I believe you hit the nail on the head. Ok the pen has a lot of pitchers people will say. That it is a ridiculos statement because I can think of guys that I do not want to see on the mound in a critical game. Too bad there is no way you can have starters only last four innings and use your best bullpen guys on a daily basis. TLR needs to squeeze innings out of someone. Someone needs to step it up asap!!!!
Guys I don't want to see pitch.
- Cavazos
- Falkenborg
- Flores
- Jimenez
- Maroth
What can TLR really do? His starters have been flat out awful. The manager has absolutely nothing they can do when starters consistently can not give 4+ innings of work. It has been the story all year and it catches up to a team.
I think people bashing TLR are kind of overlooking the main problem. The starters are not eating up enough innings. 4 innings out of a starter is pathetic. It can happen from time to time but it has been the trend this year.
by ICbirdfan on Sep 13, 2007 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's true, but...
if the starter implodes we have to go to the bullpen anyway, but pitching a lost game is probably more wearing and disappointing than pitching while winning
so why not use the bullpen to manufacture one win and go from there?
by Johnny64 on Sep 13, 2007 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I respectfully disagree
Kip had given up 6 hits and 5 walks after 4.0 innings, for a WHIP of 2.75. TWO POINT SEVEN FIVE! That's worse than awful. It was unbelievable luck that he only had one run scored on him by that point.
When the 5th opened with a leadoff double (bringing his awesome WHIP to an even 3.0!), everyone paying attention was screaming for the hook. Kip simply had NOTHING this entire game. And, predictably, the fully expected implosion occurred in the 5th when Tony refused to pull him.
Now I know our bullpen has some real lemons, but damn near anyone would be an improvement over today's Kip (a 3.0 WHIP?!?). Especially if you can use matchups to further tilt the odds (e.g., Dunn and Votto, etc).
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thompson's pitching
Thompson's line: 2 IP, 13 pitches with 11 strikes, 5-1 GO-FO
Since Thompson hasn't given up more than 3 runs in the majority of his starts, and looking at his great stats today, I wonder if we would have won that game if he had been our starter?
I also wonder where we would be if they had just left Thompson in the rotation when he was still pitching fairly well (better than any of the others)? Bernie reported that Thompson's ERA in his last 6 starts was somewhere in the mid to upper 3.00 range.
This is no surprise, but I think Thompson needs a little more love.
by nycardfan on Sep 13, 2007 5:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would finish the year with this rotation
Looper
Pinero
Thompson
Reyes
Move Mulder to the pen where he can get his work without the risk of stretching him out too much.
Wells seems to be an effective reliever. Make the most of him we can.
by DriverZn on Sep 13, 2007 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that's what they should do too.
by jillsinmo on Sep 13, 2007 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Although I wouldn't be opposed to having Mulder pitch some "live" innings out of the bullpen in non-critical games.
I think doing so would probably benefit Mulder more than "just" bullpen sessions. But to start him seems foolhardy to me. His focus should be on recovery and regaining his mechanics at this point, not doing "whatever it takes" to win a game. That's asking for an injury or a setback in his rehab.
by Mr Clean on Sep 13, 2007 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it just the injury?
Anthony Reyes last 2 starts:
4.1 IP
8 Hits
7 ER
3 BB
3 K
4 HR
2.68 WHIP
15.36 ERA
Mark Mulder last 2 starts:
8 IP
15 Hits
11 ER
4 BB
3 K
3 HR
2.37 WHIP
12.38
They are both pretty bad but Mulder's ability to log innings more than anything makes him a more viable candidate at this point.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 13, 2007 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So 2 starts of 4 IP per start
by Mr Redbird on Sep 13, 2007 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mostly, yes
Reyes has had a lot of starts where he would give up 3 in an inning and then put up several 0's. But new tony pulls him as soon as he has a bad inning, completly ignoring his past of bouncing back from them during a game.
Yes I want to protect Mulder
Yes I want to give Reyes every chance.
Not like we are still playing meaningfull games.
by DriverZn on Sep 14, 2007 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not "just" the injury...
I simply see more value in getting a few more starts out of Reyes for evaluation purposes (trade or keep this offseason?), versus seeing more Mulder, which we already know will be a big part of 2008 one way or another. Anthony's starts may/(are likely to) all suck, but the kid won't learn to fix his starting woes in the bullpen, and we can't banish him to Memphis anymore. <smirk> His peripherals are still tantalizing, so we need to decide whether he's worth hanging onto, or whether he's trade fodder. Fish or cut bait time.
It's clear we ain't winnin' the Central this year (despite the team's laudable efforts with the recent tease before this 7 game losing streak), so again, my opinion is that our priority should be on maximizing our value for 2008. And I see greater upside in giving Reyes more starts than Mulder at this point.
by Mr Clean on Sep 14, 2007 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mark Mulder has much more of a chance
If anyone should be getting evalutation starts, it is Mulder.
by Hardcore Legend on Sep 14, 2007 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is possibly true
by punchinjudy on Sep 14, 2007 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's true
by nycardfan on Sep 14, 2007 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No argument on THAT...
As such, why should Mulder get an "evaluation start" when he's already inked in as a big part of 2008?
Anthony, on the other hand, is on the bubble. That's why I feel it would be better to see more innings out of him in the few games remaining.
by Mr Clean on Sep 14, 2007 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
terry ryan fired
by erik on Sep 13, 2007 6:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
LaDuncJock
A team that has gone through what the 2007 Cardinals have been through has no business being in contention in September regardless how bad the division is. I think, more than in most recent years, we got to see in St. Louis a team that truly shows what it means to play Cardinals' Baseball. They played a hard nine the whole season. Very few of their losses can be chalked up to lack of trying. I am proud of their character, their toughness, and their perseverance. I believe this team has a bright future, whether it be with LaRussa or with Oquendo.
Okay, now stop losing and go beat those damn cubbies!
by BigMOman on Sep 13, 2007 6:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
they'll have to go 14-4 the rest of the way
So basically they'll have to be awesome and the Cubs and Brewers will have to be Capuano at the same time.
Yes...Capuano is a synonym for stinky.
by Petkovsek on Sep 13, 2007 7:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs



