Game 107 Open Thread: August 4, 2007

by lboros on Aug 4, 2007 6:33 AM EDT in News Comment 199 comments


piniero	hanrahan
1-1, 5.03	0-0, 4.50

typical early-august pitching pairing: one guy making his first start of the season, the other guy making his 2d. when hanrahan debuted last weekend he became the 13th starter the nats have used this season; piniero will be the 10th to take the ball for st louis.

the p-d says he's on a 75-pitch limit tonight, which is one of two reasons that an obviously fatigued kip wells was sent back out there in the 7th inning last night with 104 pitches already on his arm; tony knows he will need to use the 'pen tonight, so he had to hold something back. the other reason wells stayed in, of course, was the heavy load the bullpen carried in wednesday's blowout loss and thursday's 11-inning defeat. terrible setup for kip, who has a season-long pattern of struggling from the 5th inning on --- roughly after pitch no. 75:

	avg	obp	slg	run avg
inn 1-4	.257	.337	.385	4.19
inn 5-7	.329	.411	.523	10.15

sure enough, last night wells held the nats scoreless through 4 innings, got himself into a groove after a shaky start. but he started missing targets in the 5th inning, and by the 7th he was barely able to heave it all the way to the catcher's mitt. i sympathize w/ tony n dave's predicament --- not their fault they had to use the bullpen so much on wednesday and thursday --- but insofar as they pride themselves on superior preparation, i wonder why contingencies couldn't be laid to keep kip (and the team) out of a situation so adverse to winning. in the 7th inning of a tie game, a tired kip wells is the last guy you want out there; got to avoid it at all costs. so why didn't the cardinals [second-guess alarm trips . . . . ] fly a fresh triple A pitcher to washington after thursday night's game? he wouldn't even have to be activated for friday's game, although he could have been; the guy could just have been at the ready for saturday, when (with piniero on a short pitch count) the bullpen will have its work cut out for it. that'd let tony use his relievers friday night without having to hold anything back. the bullpen was adequately staffed for last night; franklin springer and flores all were available (obviously, since they all pitched), and surely izzy could have pitched too; he did appear thursday, but he only faced 4 batters, and in 6 outings this season on 0 days' rest he hasn't allowed a single run.

so after wells' narrow escape in the 6th inning, which pushed him over the 100-pitch mark, he shouldn't even have batted leading off the 7th inning; tony should have pinch-hit there and tried to get a lead, then turned things over to the bullpen. no matter how the game turned out, this morning the team could have activated the triple A pitcher to prop up the pen for the rest of the weekend. it wouldn't have been convenient; memphis is all the way across the continent in tacoma. but cavazos was fresh; so, for that matter, was chris perez. . . .

i don't want to oversell this complaint; leaving wells in the game was a bad managerial decision, yes, but it alone didn't cost the cardinals the game. however, it was avoidable; that's what bugs me about it. if this team is still trying to win the division (as it claims to be), then it has to maximize its chances at every opportunity. and that means getting kip wells off the mound at the first sign of trouble once he crosses the 75-pitch threshold --- tired bullpen or no.

piniero will wear number 35.

minor-league note: oliver marmol, the cards' 6th rounder in the 2007 draft, got moved up to quad cities and debuted there last night at ss, went 1 for 4. i love the way the cardinals speed their college draftees up the chain. there are now 7 guys at quad cities who are in just their 2d month of pro ball; by this time next year some or all of them might be at double A or higher. 6 players from last year's draft have already gotten that high (perez walters jay hamilton shorey and marti). it's an aggressive approach, and one that seems appropriate for a team that needs to restock in a hurry. challenge the players, sort through them; find the ones who can help.

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Props to Wells

for last night. He never should have been out there in the 7th. In addition, he contributed two hits and an rbi.
Unless there are things going on in the front office we'll never know about, this pitching mess is hung around the neck of Jocketty. The season before the signing of Suppan we had a similar mess in the rotation.
One of the reasons for signing Sup was his durability- 200 innings a year. Did he forget this element in starting pitching? How could a WS champion start a season with what we did? The coming stress on the bullpen was obvious.
The failure to look ahead has been costly. If you just look at two examples maybe they will illustrate what I mean. Suppan is not worth what the Brewers signed him for- but I will always believe we could have had him in the 7-8 million range with an extention before or during 2006, which would be a bargain going into this offseason. Letting Marquis and Weaver go I have no quarrel with, but Suppan was consistent and durable, two qualities none of the present starters can claim (Wagonmaker might get there, but not yet).
The second example is Edmonds. It was obvious he was fading for several years. As you pointed out several months ago in a post the time to move him was when the Yankees were shopping for a centerfielder prior to signing Damon. If rumors were correct, the Cards wanted both Wang and Cano and the Yankees refused (wisely). The Cards probably could have gotten one of those two and provided themselves with relief at either of two sore spots and a lot of financial flexibility.
To reiterate something in a couple of my earlier posts, we need a long-range plan, and we need to stick to it.

by vinniefromjersey on Aug 4, 2007 8:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think the Brewers wanted Suppan

specifically because he had been in the playoffs and world series-and were willing to pay a premium to get him. No one else on the brewers staff has been there, and they determined this would be the year they could make the push. It would have been nice to keep him here-he takes the ball every five days, sometimes good, sometimes bad with an occasional gem thrown in.

I will never understand why they extended Edmonds 2 years when they could have just given him the one.
lboros is right--they should have called up a pitcher from AAA-even if they didn't activate him until the last minute.

by jillsinmo on Aug 4, 2007 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

They may have considered a AAA pitcher

but Memphis was playing in Tacoma, WA. Flying cross-country on a red-eye is not really the most relaxing way to spend a night.

Using a guy considered not quite good enough to be on your major league roster with that sort of rest is not a good plan.

by DizzyDean17 on Aug 4, 2007 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yes, in tacoma

as i noted above. that's why i suggested flying the guy in on friday but not activating him until saturday. . . . . would probably take care of the problem you mention.

by lboros on Aug 4, 2007 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that's really an interesting idea

I don't know who they would have sent down if they were forced to activate the pitcher, but it's something the team should've done if they were that worried about the pen.

by chuckb on Aug 4, 2007 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kip

Maybe they can have him play 2nd when doesn't pitch

by zolak16 on Aug 4, 2007 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It wasn't the pitching

I agree that Wells should have been done after the 6th inning, and the failure to prepare for that contingency left them with no good option. But neither pitching nor managerial decisions lost that game--11 LOB says it all. The same comments can be made re Thursday's loss in Pittsburgh.

by oldbirdwatcher on Aug 4, 2007 9:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This is true---there are very

few games won when you score 2 runs. Wells took it as far as he could and then some.

by jillsinmo on Aug 4, 2007 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Cards

are something like 1-34 this year when scoring less than 3. Yuck!

by chuckb on Aug 4, 2007 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was at last night's game

And it was curious to see if it was as inexplicable from afar as to why Wells was in there in the 7th. He walked the leadoff batter on 4 pitches, the last of which almost hit the batter, then struggled to throw a strike to Logan who was trying to bunt, then I believe walked the next batter on 4 pitches.

Also Albert struck out swinging in his first two at bats...that can't have happened too many times before. Redding was crushing the middle of our lineup.

by mdhoffm2 on Aug 4, 2007 10:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

During this important stretch of games

Albert is batting .256 with 2 HRs in 43 at-bats. In 5 of the 11 games, he has thrown up 'o-fors'

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Shame on him

he must not be taking his job seriously enough

by baw on Aug 4, 2007 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

All this comes after his non-chalant

"I'll take Monday off" statement when asked if he thought this was a big week last week.

Say what you want about the small sample-size, but without Pujols' production, the offense has stalled.

Everyone derides Scott Rolen for his poor play offensively, but in this crucial stretch for the Cardinals, he has outplayed Pujols. Hell, Yadier Molina has been outhitting Pujols during this run.

It's just unfortunate that for a stretch of games that the fans seem to put a lot of weight into deciding the season (myself included) Pujols has almost completely disappeared at the plate.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

heh

If you take away the first two games of the Cubs series, he's disappearing at the plate to the tune of a .415 OBP, .618 SLG%, and a 1.033 OPS. That's in the 9 games since the losses to the Cubs.

Let's stick with the 11 games theme here. In the 11 before the losses to the Cubs, Albert was batting .421, with a .542 OBP, 1.000 SLG%, and a 1.542 OPS.

Given what you know about Albert Pujols - how he's like one of the 10 greatest hitters of all time thus far in his career, and that he spends freakish amounts of time watching video - do you see the "I'll take Monday off" comment and two bad games against the Cubs as the exception, or the rule?

There's no denying that Rolen and Molina have been hitting well lately. But in their hottest streaks of the year, they've been roughly as productive as Albert, save for 2 games when the Cubs started Carlos Zambrano and Ted Lilly. Since those two games, Albert has 6 XBHs. Rolen has 5, and Molina has 2. Once again, Albert's the last guy we need to be concerned about.

by jdub176 on Aug 4, 2007 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

wow

Small sample size alert!

Albert's slugging percentage dropped exactly one point in those 11 games. His WPA is still second in the NL. Something tells me that he's the last guy we need to blame - for anything.

by jdub176 on Aug 4, 2007 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hey

if Albert hadn't gone 0-for-3 in that 15-1 nailbiter against the Bucs, we'd still be in this thing

by baw on Aug 4, 2007 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tony's reaction

in the 7th inning, Tony was pacing the dugout with an angered demeanor. He was dropping the 'JCs' all over the place as if he was pissed at Kip Wells for not being able to throw strikes when he had already thrown 110 pitches.

When Kip started bouncing fastballs in front of home plate, it became very clear that he was completely out of gas....to everyone not named Tony.

Once agains, the manager played for tomorrow. I love when he randomly decides which games he is going to try and win and which ones he isn't.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2007 11:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

The team lost by one run in the bottom of the ninth... yes, clearly, Tony had already decided to lose.

by baw on Aug 4, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

When he left Kip Wells out there to make

the mess he did in the 7th inning, he had already decided "I'm going to use the bullpen to win tomorrow" instead of using it last night to win. Where was Springer 1 batter before?

This is what, the 3rd time this year Tony has hung Kippers out to dry trying to get him a win? And in all 3 of those instances, Kip made a mess of things that ended up costing the Cardinals a win.

Tony managed more worried about Saturday's game than Friday's.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm compromised

I can see the 'roll the dice' logic of letting Wells HIT, and then to TRY to get through the 7th on the hill.
BUT... after that first batter, when it was clear Wells was gassed, THEN Tony should have pulled him. Not two hitters later, when, surprise, surprise, the bases are now loaded. {it sounded like Rooney himself was wanting to leave the radio booth and go down and make a pitching change.}
At that, kudos to Springer for keeping the inning to one run.
After that 7th (and I think our lead-off man got on in the top of the 8th) I really believed we were still going to win.

by CurtFlood on Aug 4, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cards minor leagues

LB, I agree with you about the Cards speeding along the college picks. I like it. These guys need to be sped along because of they are already pretty old coming out of college and the Cards need to see if they will sink or swim. However, I think the Cards drafting so many college players instead of taking high risk/high reward high schoolers has lead to an abundance of AAAA quality guys at the top of our system. College guys like Danielson, Stavinoha, Shorey, and even Jay will probably end up being 4th or 5th OFs at best. Those guys with guys like Marti, Haerther, Schumaker, and Joe Mather who also all project as bench players at best have created a glut of OFs at AA/AAA who are close to ML ready, but none of them projecct as ML regulars. I fear the same thing might happen with pitchers when some of the college arms being to advacne. We'll have a bunch of AAAA/5th starter types clogging up AA and AAA. Its not really a bad thing to have lots of guys that are close to ML ready even if they don't project to be regulars, I just hope the Cards start to be more high upside guys in the future and won't allow better prospects to be blocked by the AAAA guys.

"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Aug 4, 2007 1:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Haerther

Could still be a ML starter. He needs to stay healthy next year to find out

Come on You Redbirds--Mike Shannon

by BluesDrummer85 on Aug 4, 2007 1:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Game time

Anyone know what time the game is on and what channel its on?

by Calhoun on Aug 4, 2007 1:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

6:05 CT, FSN

n/t

by jdub176 on Aug 4, 2007 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

For all those complaining about Tony

playing for "tomorrow" and costing his team the game -- haven't most fans decided that the team SHOULD BE playing for tomorrow? Earlier this week we were critical of Tony and the organization for really believing they were in it, and now we're critical of him for not trying to win THAT game, today? He played for "tomorrow" even if that meant risking a loss today? Who cares? What real harm does 1 loss do if we've decided they have no shot?

If he doesn't pull a pitcher at exactly the right time or uses the wrong pinch-hitter or something, is it really that big a deal? Granted, I see no point in pushing Kip beyond his limits but I see no point in getting all worked up into a lather over it either.

Tony's mistake played a very small role in yesterday's loss -- Albert, Scotty, Chris D., Jimmy, and, of course, Franklin were much more responsible for that loss than Tony.

by chuckb on Aug 4, 2007 2:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Playing for tomorrow and playing for next year

are two different things. This isn't an instance of things like Tony starting Eckstein/Miles instead of Ryan or sending Skip down for a pitcher.

These are instances of having 'wins' in hand and not doing everything possible to preserve that win because of fear of running out of pitchers the next day.

Is Brad Thompson injured? Does he have a sore arm? If LaRussa was so worried about Pineiro's pitchcount today, why not just pencil Thompson in to pitch the 5th, 6th and 7th innings. That would save you 2 or 3 bullpen guys anyways.

Kip was having trouble even getting his fastball (which was down to 88 mph) to travel 55 feet. I'm not THAT concerned for the well being of Robert Wells, but he had a tired arm out there and Tony just had him plugging away.

If Rolen had thrown on Nook for 1 out, leaving a base empty, I have no doubt Tony would have let Wells walk 1 more batter than he already did before pulling the trigger.

It's just confusing what he constitutes as when 'a pitcher is done'. Anthony Reyes is sailing along in an almost dominating start and he pulls him before he goes back out, Kip Wells he hangs out to dry for 130 pitches against the Dodgers, even last year, he'd yank Carpenter even when Carp was dominating a team and then turn it over to the bullpen. That doesn't even touch on the Mulder, Izzy and Flores situations.

After all these years, I thought I began to understand when, why and where Tony was coming from on decisions in games. Now he is getting erractic and illogical.

We played 11 innings in Pittsburgh on Thursday and neither Jim Edmonds or Chris Duncan logged and official at-bat. So Taguchi and Ryan Ludwick logged 7 of them, and threw up a big goose egg.

Stuff like that is irritating.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tony

"After all these years, I thought I began to understand when, why and where Tony was coming from on decisions in games. Now he is getting erractic and illogical."

Really? I think he's always done stuff like this -- pulling pitchers one day a little earlier than necessary and riding others way past their expiration date at others. I don't think it's any different.

It may be different now than earlier in the year b/c (if you're trying to win the division) there's more urgency now. But it seems to me that he's been hard to pin down for 11 years on stuff like this.

by chuckb on Aug 4, 2007 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lot of stupid posts today.

The Cards lost last night because they scored two runs. Period. The endless Tony bashing has become an exercise in stupidity.

Starting pitching has been a nightmare no question. I'll also agree that Walt has blown it the last two offseasons. But there are a lot of big names and big contracts under-performing horribly this year on offense. Tony has give us a lot of good years and seems to be given less to work with every year. Many who bash Tony on this forum will miss him greatly after he is gone.

by deanj on Aug 4, 2007 2:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

we won 9 games

in 2004 in which we scored 1 or 2 runs, and 7 in 2005. We've won ONE this year, and our top 4 bullpen arms are probably better now than in either of those years.

For all the talk about the offense underperforming and the strength of the 2004 offense, pitching and bullpen management won a lot of games those years. There is no reason for us to consider a 2-run offensive game an automatic loss. Tony made the stupid (your word) decision that let the go-ahead run score and we got darn lucky they didn't score 4 or 5 (what's the run expectancy for bases loaded, no outs?)

completely exhausted.

by SleepyCA on Aug 4, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

old cards

If your gonna win games where you 1 or 2 runs your gonna need good starting pitching and in 04 and 05 thats what the cards had.

by zolak16 on Aug 4, 2007 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and we got 6 innings of it yesterday

and we wasted it because TLR wanted 7.

completely exhausted.

by SleepyCA on Aug 4, 2007 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is Franklin...

...one of the guys who would have given us a 2-1 win yesterday? Pretty sure he failed at his job in the 9th. At some point you have to let a starter learn how to get out jams at crucial times or pitch deeper into games or he'll never learn how to win or get a chance to win. Kip Wells has yet to pitch on a winning ball club so I'm sure losing is all he's accustomed to and he needs to learn how to win.

There is no comparison between 2004 and now. It's pointless to compare them. Tony has next to nothing to work with this year.

For me the biggest disappointment this year has been injuries coupled with underachieving offensive players. We all had a pretty good idea that the starting pitching would be bad before the season started. Most of us believed we would be able to score runs this year but that has not been the case. I just feel Tony takes too much heat for a poor roster and underachieving players.

by deanj on Aug 4, 2007 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Learn to pitch out of jams?

Kip Wells has been in the league for 9 years and has started almost 200 games in the Major Leagues.

Tony has next to nothing to work with this year.
Exaclty, which is why you have to squeeze every ounce of productivity out of what you do have.

How about this one: In Thursday's game, Tony decided to bring in Randy Flores to face Adam Laroche, the LH slugger for the Pirates.

Unfortunately for Tony, Laroche is hitting at a HIGHER average against lefties than righties. He is hitting .280 in 100 ABs this year. Better yet, as Flores came running in from the bullpen, the PNC scoreboard showed this stat: Adam Laroche is hitting .435 against LHP since June 16th.

Randy Flores, a LOOGY, is getting hit by LHB at a .328 pace. This was, statistically, one of the worst moves Tony could make in this situation.

So Tony takes out a reliever who can throw 2+ innings (Franklin) and brings in a LOOGY for a situation he statistically WILL fail in, and LaRoche hits a sharp single to RF.

If that isn't a sign of LaRussa losing his mental edge on 'matchups', I don't know what is.

Getting blown out 15-1 isn't the managers fault. Having a lead as late as the 6th inning and allowing the starter to lose that lead is the manager's fault.

He hung Anthony Reyes out to dry in Thursday and Kip Wells on Friday. It's becoming a pattern. Thank goodness that, barring a bold face lie from the manager, Pineiro is on a 70 pitch count. More than likely, though, Pineiro will throw a 1 hitter, striking out 11 into the 6th, and Tony will pull him because we get to that 70 pitch count.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

the Flores thing

was a stupid decision but I don't think it was a circumstance where Tony has "lost his mental edge on matchups." He's always played them to extremes.

In this case, he brought in a lefty to face the lefty -- that's always been his typical M.O. It happens in this case, as it has before, that the righty on the mound would've been a better fit, and even if it was a tie, would've allowed Tony to use only 1, instead of 2, pitchers.

Tony's not losing it. He's always done this sort of stuff, making people question what he's doing. Maybe it's more frustrating now b/c the team is worse or maybe it's more noticeable. But he would've brought Flores in for Franklin 3 years ago as well. I agree that it's still a bad decision.

by chuckb on Aug 4, 2007 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not really arguing with your last

paragraph. That is absolutely true. It's just frustrating because this team is NOT as bad as it looks; we just keep losing games that we should have won, that we would have won in past years.

Regarding franklin, he gave up 2 bad luck pop up hits that fell in and a game-winning ground ball hit that would have been a double play if brendan ryan or any other >5'8" SS was playing short (or even if eckstein had been positioned correctly). Just plain bad luck- but even with the run scoring, the score would have been 2-2 and not 3-2.

completely exhausted.

by SleepyCA on Aug 4, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And Izzy would have been in that situation

not Franklin.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2007 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's not true at all

We didn't know the starting pitching would be bad in the off season on paper it looked like a good rotation.

1.Carpenter(unexpected horrible injury we all thought Carp would be Carp)

2.Wainwright(I pretty much thought he would give us the production he has maybe a little better)

3.Kip Wells(he was a wild card but I didnt think he would be that bad I thought he would atleast give us Suppan type production)

4.Anthony Reyes(after pitching some gems last year including a one hitter and the awesome game one World Series win we thought he would be better then he has been but he has the worst run support of any pitcher)

5.Looper(I had no idea what we would get out of him his first half wasnt bad but he has struggled since then)

Mulder(another wildcard didnt even know if he would pitch this year still a question mark)

That wasnt a bad rotation on paper but it all depended on one important thing Carpenter.
seeing how close we are to the leader of our division its safe to say if we had Carp we would be right there with them and we would be ALOT better of a team.

by Calhoun on Aug 4, 2007 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

to deanj above

forget about the low run output for a second. while it's true that they could have won the game if they'd scored more than 2 runs, that's not exactly a thought-provoking insight. i mean, thanks for pointing it out and everything, but we all understand that. . . .

here's what i want to know: did you think it was wise to leave kip wells out there in the 7th inning? do you think a different decision might have increased the cards' odds of winning, in spite of the low run output? if you think the correct decision was made, i'd like to hear your case for that.

if you're gonna post here, speak to the subject at hand. if you think the subject is stupid, then leave the forum.

by lboros on Aug 4, 2007 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Forget about the 7th inning result then.

Hindsight is easy if that's your point.If Wells pitches a scoreless inning, no one complains or second guesses. Thanks for your kind insult by the way.

I'm fine with Tony's decision. The bullpen has pitched way too much and can also be scored on as Franklin showed in the 9th. (Should he have used Izzy in the 9th or Percival or some other second guess?)

I think Tony is trying to give Wells a chance to succeed and has an overused bullpen. What's wrong with that?

As far as the discussion at hand goes, I'm pretty sure that's what I've been addressing. The initial post and some of the comments were second guessing Tony and I chose to argue against those thoughts. I never said a subject was stupid, I said the blaming of Tony for last night's loss was stupid. Is disagreement not allowed on your? Is that why you want me to leave your forum?

by deanj on Aug 4, 2007 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No offense

but Kip Wells stats:

Pitches 76-100+
107 ABs
37 Hits
.366 AVG
6 2B
1 3B
4 HR
18 BB
19 SO
32 Runs

Once he gets to 75+ pitches, if he starts getting into trouble, Tony needs to get the hook out.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2007 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder why

there's no criticism of Tony's leaving Kip out there for the 6th. We've seen this before. Tony sticks w/ a starter too long only b/c he's due to hit in the next inning. Kip was due 1st in the 7th and, indeed, batted for himself, thus allowing him to pitch the bottom of the 7th.

Given your's and Larry's stats on Kip's pretty dramatic drop-off after 75 pitches, I wonder why there's no criticism of Tony's decision to let him pitch the 6th. He had thrown 91 pitches after 5 innings and got into quite a lot of trouble in the 6th, only to narrowly escape.

I understand sticking w/ a pitcher who's due up so you don't waste a pitcher by having him throw 6-8 pitches and then pinch-hitting for him. But w/ the way Tony and Walt always construct the roster, with interchangeable parts, it's fairly easy for him to use the double-switch. That Kip didn't give up any runs in the 6th shouldn't absolve Tony if we've decided that Kip's pitch limit should really be closer to 75 or 80.

by chuckb on Aug 4, 2007 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

scattered points:

I admire lboros greatly (he runs a great ship and I am very grateful for having this blog/site to enjoy and occasionally participate in) but it sometimes tickles me at what gets his dander up.
On the other hand (not to pile on Dean, above) I don't think the Wells decision last night is trivial at all... and I DO think it is a (widening) window into the style or psyche of LaRussa.

My own view on THAT is a spin-off of Dean's point. I think Tony is a great manager, maybe the very best, with a team that DOES have the horses, or pieces, to play the chess game he likes.
But running a .500 club, or a team struggling to find its current 'identity'... I think LaRussa's style (or his 'theories' maybe) are more negative than positive {{that said, he's still good enough, and a heck of a lot smarter than I am}}

by CurtFlood on Aug 4, 2007 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, had to reply twice.

Your last paragraph becomes more infuriating every time I read it. How was I not addressing the subject at hand? Why is it wrong to argue against the endless second quessing on this forum? Why would you ask someone to leave your forum that you make money from based on the number of hits or visitors you have?

Your first paragraph is incredibly insulting considering what a second guesser you are. I will accept your invitation and leave your forum.
I'll be sure to route against your team when you get that inevitable offer to manage your own club someday.

by deanj on Aug 4, 2007 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Larry's post for today

was about how 'against the numbers' it was for TLR to leave Kip out there for the 7th inning.

You then reply saying 'there have been a lot of stupid posts' today, and give the implication that the reason they are stupid is because they talk about LaRussa's boneheaded pitching decision instead of the offense only scoring 2 runs.

In essence, you called his post today stupid. Generally not a good idea to call the host blogger stupid for starting an interesting discussion with the statistics to back it up.

And, for reference: You only need 1 run to win a game. We got 2, and at worst, if Tony had lifted Kippers, it might have been tied in the bottom of the 9th.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2007 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

dean, your indignation amuses me

you call out the entire board as stupid, but then you get your panties in a twist when i return fire.

if you're gonna dish it, you gotta be able to take it my friend.

by lboros on Aug 4, 2007 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But

when is the last time the Cardinals won a game scoring only one run? How many times have they done it this season?

As someone already pointed out, this team has won, like, a SINGLE GAME in which it scored less than 3 runs. There's your answer. Why are we jumping on La Russa for one freaking game that ended 3-2... in the bottom of the ninth? You reamed deanj for saying it impolitely, but he's right; La Russa is playing the Washington Nationals in August, not the Mets in October. He is not a "bonehead" for saving his bullpen.

As you're so talented at employing hindsight, don't you think that with two one-run losses sandwiched between two double-digit blowouts, TLR is warranted in his conservation of the bullpen?

by baw on Aug 5, 2007 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And the award for hysterical over-reaction

in a supporting role goes to....

deanj!!!

by BTown Birds fan on Aug 4, 2007 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Deanj,

I'm not going to get into some sort of childish name calling situation with you here; I don't usually enjoy that sort of thing. However, I will say that to open you post with, "lots of stupid posts today" is not a great way to get people to rationally discuss a subject with you. Referring to the individuals you're talking to as stupid before you make your point basically ensures that no one is going to take you seriously, virtually regardless of what you have to say. Getting all upset and huffy whenever the people around you fail to respect you following your childish insults is, perhaps, one of the saddest displays of immaturity I've witnessed on this board in quite some time.

So yeah, if you have a problem with the rest of us, take your whining and your small insults and go elsewhere. So far, your method of expressing yourself, to me, seems an awful lot like school in summertime.

To hell with your spoiled baby! I need those shoes!

by the red baron on Aug 4, 2007 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Either way

If you take out the 7th they still give up 2 runs, it's unfair to make TLR scapegoat for losses

by zolak16 on Aug 4, 2007 3:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

I think Tony has done a great job considering the roster he has to work with. If you simply look at this club on paper you would guess they were a last place club. We've run out some pretty weak starting lineups this year.

by deanj on Aug 4, 2007 3:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hoping

That the front office realizes this

by zolak16 on Aug 4, 2007 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Are we making a run at the pennent?

Larry:

Call me a skeptic, but I don't really believe we are making a run at the pennent this year and I don't really believe the Cardinals didn't want to retool after last season. (Come on, don't you remember Bill and Walt's faces after the WS win? They were as shocked as we were.) More to the point, I think comments to the contrary are intended to satiate the ordinary fan- they aren't meant for the most literate Cardinals fan nor his more dedicated readers.

In the meantime, pick ups like Piniero are a necessity. We need pitchers that bear some semblance of MLers until 2009 or so when we wil again have some ML ready youngsters. Besides, it gives Walt and company an excuse, come November Walt will tell us something like: Late in July it really looked like the club was coming together. It seemed like we had a nucleus that could be competitive... We knew our starting pitching was thin and Piniero was the best available arm.

The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Aug 4, 2007 3:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i don't think they're contenders

but the cardinals seem to think they are. i'm just taking their actions and words at face value. instead of trying to dump pricey veterans in exchange for youth, they tried very hard (and nearly succeeded) to trade young players for a pricey veteran, matt morris.

read this exchange from joe strauss's chat on wednesday:

Q: Was the three game revival against the Brewers actually worse for the Cardinals in the long run? Was there a "big trade" the front office would have considered at the deadline if they had lost 3 of 4 to the Brewers? It may have signaled the end of this season but may have been better for '08.

A: Reyes, Encarnacion, Percival and Eckstein were all in play. It's doubtful all would have gone, but a Brewers sweep would have dramatically increased momentum for a subtraction.

if they are not trying to win it this year, then what the heck are they doing? they certainly aren't playing for next year . . . . . again, i don't think they have a legitimate shot, and i wish they'd just give up on 2007 and try to pick up a piece or two for 2008. but the team's actions speak for themselves.

by lboros on Aug 4, 2007 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I just looked it up

Ryan Ludwick's BA against LHP is now down to .184. AHHH!

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2007 4:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Dammit!

I went over to the p-d boards to see if tonight's lineup was posted. I hate it when I do that -- I feel like I lose 10% of my brain cells and a year off my life just perusing the forum. There's gotta be some sort of rehab center for that. Anyway...what was I saying?

Oh yeah, Pujols is taking tonight off and someone, apparently incorrectly, posted that Tony had put Pineiro in the 8th spot.

With the state of our lineup and team, I wonder if that wouldn't be worth trying again. A lot of the lineup sorters, including the one at baseball musings, tend to think that the pitcher probably shouldn't hit 9th. So 8th might be the best place for him.

It keeps your best hitters in the 2, 3, 4, 5 spot but gives you a better opportunity to bunch hits together b/c you're putting 1 more real hitter in front of your best hitters. It's not like there's a great deal of difference between Molina, Kennedy and the pitcher, anyhow. Managers should try this sort of thing when they're out of it -- just to see how it works.

In fact, baseball musings list of the best lineups for today would have Pineiro batting 6th -- Tony'd never do that. But maybe w/ Pujols out of the order it wouldn't hurt to do something halfway creative.

by chuckb on Aug 4, 2007 5:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Is Duncan or Speezer playing 1st?

Or heck, Edmonds?

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 4, 2007 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Spiezio

I don't like them putting Duncan at first. I know, I'm sure he's better there than in LF, but he needs as much work as possible in LF and I don't think it serves any purpose to put him at 1b, as Tony has done a few times fairly recently.

by chuckb on Aug 4, 2007 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I vote Edmonds

and put Skip in center.

oh wait, they sent that guy down, didn't they...
...

Acquire some runs!

by madding on Aug 4, 2007 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hadley was the source of pitcher batting 8th...

The poster from the PD boards didn't make it up, he just reported what John Hadley said...(of course, most people don't take him seriously, but I do think think he works for the Cardinals occasionally in some capacity)

by DiscoJer on Aug 4, 2007 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whitey questions:

I think it is generally thought that LaRussa is the one who experimented with a pitcher batting 8th line-up, but I think Whitey did that sometimes too.

Another thing I am SURE I am right about is that Whitey occasionally would move a relief pitcher to right field (in the middle of an inning), like for one batter, and then bring that RP back to the mound. Maybe they changed the rule to make that illegal now, but if not, it seems like a stunt right up LaRussa's alley

by CurtFlood on Aug 4, 2007 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A baseball player named Hanrahan?

Is Paul Newman going to be on hand to heckle him?

All things are ready if our minds be so.

by Dexter Westbrook on Aug 4, 2007 5:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ha!

I've read this post probably about 4 times and just now got it!!

by Big Red on Aug 4, 2007 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm still working on it

by CurtFlood on Aug 4, 2007 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Slap Shot

Hanrahan was the goalie Reggie (Newman) was razzing during the game.

"She's a lesbian!"

by Big Red on Aug 4, 2007 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

on the pregame show

they say that pineiro is batting 8th, why?

by truemun12 on Aug 4, 2007 6:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

because he probably can't be

any worse than Adam Kennedy.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Aug 4, 2007 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tony's thoughts

He views it like having two leadoff hitters after you go through the lineup once.

They just said on the radio we finished something like 12 games over 500 by having the pitcher batting 8th in 1998.

by enoscountry on Aug 4, 2007 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

another good post lb

with this club firmly entrenched as a sub .500 team, more often than not we watch these games to see how they will pull out another defeat. while the players continue to pile up lob's at a rate that i wish i could find a plot over at fangraphs, last nights 7th was particularly glaring for the interminable persistence in letting the sacks get jammed without even a swing of the bat.

i've always marveled at tlr's use of the double switch, match-ups and all that. But clearly that requires a pen that hasn't been wracked. more often than not i thought the stats have borne out that tlr had established advantage. but lately, it seams the math doesn't bear him out as often. has anybody ever tried to proove a managers prowess at the use of match ups?

Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Aug 4, 2007 6:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

can someone explain to me

why the infield fly rule doesnt come into affect there? does the runner have to be in scoring position for it be applicable

by truemun12 on Aug 4, 2007 7:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

must have 2 runners on

by Big Red on Aug 4, 2007 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

gotcha thanks

by truemun12 on Aug 4, 2007 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

All the lights in my house just flickered

Gameday: Adam Kennedy homers (3) on a flyball to right field. One out.

Hot damn.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Aug 4, 2007 7:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

maybe TLR should have

insulted his ego earlier...

completely exhausted.

by SleepyCA on Aug 4, 2007 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Piniero

I like what i`m seeing he has great mound presence he`s throwing strikes hes very aggressive
getting ground balls hope he keeps it up

by Calhoun on Aug 4, 2007 7:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Is it just me

or is Piñeiro looking pretty good? His pitches have motion, and he's hitting his locations. He's not getting the K's, but for this staff...

Now watch him give up a 3R HR

by Valatan on Aug 4, 2007 7:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

7 groundouts

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Aug 4, 2007 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

he throws over to 1B

more than anyone I've ever seen. Yawn.

But he's got that Ryan Franklin roid-rage stare going for him... and he's getting squeezed by the ump. If his name was peavy he'd have 8 strikeouts.

completely exhausted.

by SleepyCA on Aug 4, 2007 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

the throwovers

are usually called by LaRussa -- so it may not be Pineiro's choice there.

by chuckb on Aug 4, 2007 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Piñeiro

So far, he looks like the classic pitch to contact guy that D. Duncan loves. So far so good.

by jjray on Aug 4, 2007 8:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Pineiro is fitting right in

wow. just wow.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Aug 4, 2007 8:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I die a little

each game.

by Harknights on Aug 4, 2007 8:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

is it festivus yet

because it is time for the airing of grievances..great googly moogly. pineiro=season savior

Future Redbirds

by erik on Aug 4, 2007 8:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i got dibs on

wrestling, or fighting the owners. i foget which one you do with your dad. the owners would be the Cards dads right? or is it Walt or Tony? either way, i call dibs.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Aug 4, 2007 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

there has to be a posting gap here

the Nats are having a million run 4th

by CurtFlood on Aug 4, 2007 8:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I hate this season

I just hate it.

by Valatan on Aug 4, 2007 8:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

good thing we saved our relievers for tonight.

Brad Thompson says "this d****d start should have been mine to begin with..."

completely exhausted.

by SleepyCA on Aug 4, 2007 8:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I effing hate this

disgusting.

What midden heap were we looking at during the deadline.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Aug 4, 2007 8:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

and pineiro bats for himself

classic.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Aug 4, 2007 8:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

well he's got 5 pitches left

might as well let him throw them, so brad can try to get a double play.

completely exhausted.

by SleepyCA on Aug 4, 2007 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

3 seasons ago Jimmy would tie this game

now, he'll probably ground out to the pitcher.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Aug 4, 2007 8:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

or get fooled and weakly pop out to right

more bad news. philly is up 5-1 in the 6th.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Aug 4, 2007 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

only if it was against Houston

by CurtFlood on Aug 4, 2007 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jimbo with bases full

by CurtFlood on Aug 4, 2007 8:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

so at what point do they waive everyone?

It seems as though the d backs have gotten a bunch of players not sure they are quality, but at least kennedy has started this yr.

i cant say they should have expected anything less from joe p, but hey maybe hes opposite maroth starts sucky and works out?

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Aug 4, 2007 8:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

love -hate

love this team being brilliant for the last decade overall, winning a world series when you least expect it, so on and so forth.

but the last 2 regular seasons have just been a kick in the groin....crappy free agent signings, crap trades like this one, watching tlr act like a moron and yell at the press and mishandle his players on a regular basis, and then watching this non hustle bullcrap like we saw from juan earlier in the game.

i still love the cardinals, i still want to follow them but to be honest i find myself watching the braves or finding something else to do with my time more an more often. i hope that doesn't make me a bandwagon fan, i think i'm hacked off and burnt on on this team for a good reason.

Future Redbirds

by erik on Aug 4, 2007 8:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

to me the cards are like

a bad movie that you cant turn...you know the ones that they show on Spike Tv real late...either really abd acting from stars at a young age like Youngblood or other movies with terrible kung fu

the plot is terrible and predictable, but for some reason you keep watching..maybe it'll get better oh wait that part was kinda cool, then followed by minutes of suckiness...so ya its kinda like that...

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Aug 4, 2007 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm a bit sad

I was wishing Mil would go on a good run and bury us and the Cubs. I figure that if we fall back to 10 out we could finally get it to sink in to management that this isn't our year. I would love to hear a non-emotional argument for keeping Tony and Dave around for next year. I just don't see any reason to keep them. Next year we need starting pitching and offense. For better or worse we are stuck with: 1B, 3B, CF, C, LF. That leaves SS, 2B, and RF as the possible upgrade spots. It would be ugly to eat the Kennedy contract so SS and RF are the places we probably have to make improvements. At SS even a league average player would be in improvement. In RF we just need someone that can rake. I would rather dump the money in 2 new bats and roll the dice on a pitching staff like this. Wainwright Mulder Reyes (If duncan isn't back) Franklin Thompson (almost average for cheap) With Looper back to the pen to replace Franklin.

by DriverZn on Aug 4, 2007 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gack, sorry about the lack of <p></p>

I forgot I left it on html format.

by DriverZn on Aug 4, 2007 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nah...

No more "rolling the dice" with the pitching staff.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Aug 4, 2007 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You always roll the dice

You never can predict when pitchers will get hurt or have a down year. Its life, so the trick is to spend your money on the more predictable position players.

by DriverZn on Aug 5, 2007 2:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

with 2 men on base and a 2-0 count

wouldn't it be good to take a strike sometimes?

Jesus, Enc did the same thing.

completely exhausted.

by SleepyCA on Aug 4, 2007 8:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

So

the new pitcher has thrown what 8 pitches and maybe 2 of them are strikes.

He just walked the guy ahead of you..said guy doesn't like to walk so it was hard to do.

The bases are load and there is one out.

I know swing at the first pitch you see.

Now true it was a hanger in the middle of the plate...and a major league hitter would have hit that a long way.

So what is worse, that Yadi is dumb or Yadi is bad?

by Harknights on Aug 4, 2007 8:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i need to read my posts

before i post them. what i'm trying to say is it's been real fun, but it's getting harder and harder to watch. i've been a fan since 87, didn't really follow them as much as i should've as a teenager and was sucked back in in my early 20's. right now it's just unbearable at times, and the worst part of it all is you see how they are missing it, you know you're just a fan watching and are helpless watching how mishandled this team has been...and it overall it's been handled pretty well the last 10 years or so until recently.

maybe we've been spoiled, it's the faulty reasoning behind a lot of these decisions being made leading to this crap that hacks me off.

Future Redbirds

by erik on Aug 4, 2007 8:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

by definition a "bandwagon fan"

is someone who only follows a team once they make the playoffs. i doubt any one that takes the time to make regular post here during these past two regular seasons can be considered a bandwagon fan.

i totally know what you are trying say erik. at least i think i do.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Aug 4, 2007 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

it does hurt, but

it's not that bad (the season, not this game). In the early nineties I had Felix Jose and Gregg Jeffries as my favorite players, and my hopes were pinned on Bernard Gilkey, Donovan Osborne, and Ray Lankford.

At least, no matter how bad it is, we have Albert. And that is a once in a lifetime opportunity to follow one of the best ever from the beginning to the end.

by enoscountry on Aug 4, 2007 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

maroth in

waive the white flag of surrender.

Future Redbirds

by erik on Aug 4, 2007 8:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

we're down by 4 (5 now)

with only 3 at bats left- who wouldn't give up? Have to play for tomorrow, you know.

completely exhausted.

by SleepyCA on Aug 4, 2007 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

wave i mean

and waive maroth

Future Redbirds

by erik on Aug 4, 2007 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Edmonds is dead

There was a shot form the grassy knowl

by Harknights on Aug 4, 2007 8:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I am begining to think

Marroth isn't good or something.

I think we should run him out there about 30 more times just to be sure...while we are at it we should couple that with Jimenez...because I am unclear on him as well.

by Harknights on Aug 4, 2007 9:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He booted it.

Literally!!!

He really kicked it.

I love this team!!!

by Harknights on Aug 4, 2007 9:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

For those that played

Pursue the pennant or

Diamond Mind Baseball.

Wasn't that the worst thing to read when you were on defense.

Ground ball to second base.
...he boots it.
e4

by Harknights on Aug 4, 2007 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

wow. just wow

the bad news bears got nothing on these 07 Cardinals.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Aug 4, 2007 9:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

great quote by the Nats announcer

"this is a ball club with issues"

talking about the cardinals! Aaargh...

completely exhausted.

by SleepyCA on Aug 4, 2007 9:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wow

The '07 Cardinals have sunk to a new low. Being insulted by the Nationals announcers? Cripes!

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson

by birds 4 life on Aug 4, 2007 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Carp

Bob Carpenter didn't seem nearly as annoying when he was doing Cardinal games, for some reason.

by roebirds on Aug 4, 2007 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

HOLY.

EFFING

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Aug 4, 2007 9:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

where did the HI go?

weird. is there an automatic edit now?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Aug 4, 2007 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is like softball

Look at D Young

"Runner Blue"

Last out.

Um I think he's up next or something.

by Harknights on Aug 4, 2007 9:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Well . . .

this is just disgusting any more

by rjg001 on Aug 4, 2007 9:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Dear Cardinals

I can give up 6 (scratch that; 10) runs in 9 innings. Every 5th day I will take the mound with my 67mph fastball and throw nine innings. I do not require a PTBNL merely a paycheck resembling what I would make at a regular engineering job. I will sign a Tim Wakefield contract and allow you to pay me league minimum every year for as long as you want my 6.00 ERA.

I may not be good but hell, most of our rotation isn't right now. I promise not to ask for too many autographs (there aren't many I want from this team), or start too many fights with TLR. I will vouch for Brad Thompson's age when we go to the bars at 5 am every night. I will fluff the pillows for all the other players as we lounge about not caring with large palm leaves being waived by Canadian whores provide breeze.

I already have a nickname (azruavatar) and a blog where I can make posts about how shitty my last performance was. I will bean whoever needs to be beaned with my 56mph knucklecurve. On good days, I will strike out more batters than Brad Thompson. On bad days, I will strike out more batters than Mike Maroth. I promise to suck sufficiently that it pisses off the fan base but make comments to the press about the one (read: twelve) pitches that were just a little (read: alot) up in the zone and got hit hard (read: out of the ballpark).

Yours truly,
Azruavatar

PS - If you continue to be so shit-tastic, I may be forced to decline your offer out of embarrassment of being seen with you.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Aug 4, 2007 9:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I would like to

add my resume to Azru's here. He's your crafty, soft tossing starter; I can be your hard throwing, literally no idea where the ball's going reliever. We'll complement each other perfectly.

I could get it up to 88 when I was 15, and the last I threw at the speed gun at the high school down the street from my house, (I'm friends with the guy who coaches there) I could still get it up to 85. I know that doesn't sound all that hard, but it's still harder than Maroth throws. My mechanics are bad, and I once hit eight men in a two inning performance my freshman year, but, hey, that means I'm intimidating.

Call me.

To hell with your spoiled baby! I need those shoes!

by the red baron on Aug 4, 2007 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

now i made a post like

this a few days ago and got ripped for making fun of duncan..

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Aug 4, 2007 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess

he's still tipping his pitches or you shouldn't get pitching advice from Pujols.

I'm guessing it's the former.

by enoscountry on Aug 4, 2007 9:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It's something

I have never, in decades of watching baseball, ever seen any pitcher this bad this consistently. Maroth makes '06 Marquis look like '68 Gibson. Mulder pitched better with half an arm last year.

by roebirds on Aug 4, 2007 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's two outing on this trips

where it looked like he was pitching batting practice. He had nothing. There are better arms in AAA that have more to offer. I know he's a nice guy and I know he's working hard, but if he can't get anybody out, he should not be put in a game. He needs to be removed from the roster. If they want to give him some time in AAA, I could live with that. Thompson looks gassed too. He needs to rest for awhile; it's effecting his pitching.

by jillsinmo on Aug 4, 2007 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ya know

As pathetic as we are right now...

It's kinda funny. When you have THIS many blowout losses it's just comical (to me anyway)

This team isn't very good. I think they can be a .500 team max. But I still can't get mad after a Championship. If this was 2008 maybe.

I think ownership did nothing to address and problems. That angers me more than the way this team plays. Did anyone really, honestly, think this team had a shot at another title this year? After seeing how the first half went?

by Pujols for MVP on Aug 4, 2007 9:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I totally agree.

I live and die with the Birds but they get a free pass from me this year. They did win the damn World Series last year! They can do no wrong for the next few months. We're pretty spoiled baseball fans to get to see playoff baseball 6 out of the last 7 years and World Series baseball 2 out of the last 3 years.

I pretty much wrote them off after April anyway. It was pretty apparent then that without help we had just a slim chance of winning the division and were going to go nowhere if we made it to the playoffs.

I'm not going to get too upset at this team until I see what happens in the offseason and what direction the team decides to take.

That being said, I still watch every game this year and it still hurts to lose like this. But I'll savor the sweet taste of a World Championship for three more months until a new one is crowned.

AND OH SWEET GOD, AARON MILES IS WARMING UP IN THE PEN!

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson

by birds 4 life on Aug 4, 2007 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i'm a bit drinked

so it might not be as funny tomorrow, but that last bit just completely cracked me up. Is that for real?

"This is a ball club with issues." -Nats announcers (talking about the Cardinals)

by SleepyCA on Aug 4, 2007 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes that is totally for real...

... in fact, I think they are bringing him in to pitch.

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson

by birds 4 life on Aug 4, 2007 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

omfg it's true

and facing zimmerman. nice.

71 mph fastball...

"This is a ball club with issues." -Nats announcers (talking about the Cardinals)

by SleepyCA on Aug 4, 2007 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

wonder what YADDA was saying to Maroth?

Tony let him finish and then took the ball from Mike. maybe goodbye?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Aug 4, 2007 9:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

how on GOD's green earth is that a strike?

isn't it bad enough that the Nats are beating their brains in?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Aug 4, 2007 9:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

UNCLE

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Aug 4, 2007 9:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

HAHA

Tony should just go to the umpire and say...

"Yea uh, we're done. Cya tomorrow"

by Pujols for MVP on Aug 4, 2007 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

4 more

and it's a skunk

by Harknights on Aug 4, 2007 9:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Miles?!?

Really?

by Harknights on Aug 4, 2007 9:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This is awesome.

It's literally like watching one of those little league games, where they call it after about 3 innings. Problem is, so far as I know, there's no mercy rule in the major leagues.

What the hell happened to Brad Thompson, by the way? I mean, seriously.

To hell with your spoiled baby! I need those shoes!

by the red baron on Aug 4, 2007 9:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

President Casino

Who in the hell dances like that lady at the end. I mean c'mon. Sorry, that has irritated me for a year.

by Pujols for MVP on Aug 4, 2007 9:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

well

i am glad i stuck around so i can see miles pitch

by truemun12 on Aug 4, 2007 9:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

and the night gets better

the Brew Crew just came back and beat the Phillies 6-5. in dramatic fashion too.

today was awesome.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Aug 4, 2007 9:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Good news!

Brewers come back in win.. Cubs stay a game back. Go crew!

by cloistermaximus on Aug 4, 2007 9:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Can we start selling yet?

Juan and Eckstein for, well, anything we can get.

by DriverZn on Aug 4, 2007 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Unfortunately,

the time for selling was about four days ago, and the Cardinals were, at the time, enamoured of their recent miracle comebacks and trying to finagle a deal for Matt Morris.

I can deal with the bad play; sometimes, it's just not your year. But the whole trade deadline situation, the decision making based on a faulty conclusion, just infuriates me. I just don't understand why it's so hard for the people in this organisation to admit that whatever they did this year, it isn't working, so it's time to try something else. The hardheadedness is almost unfathomable.

To hell with your spoiled baby! I need those shoes!

by the red baron on Aug 5, 2007 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Aaron Miles

Is indeed going to pitch!

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson

by birds 4 life on Aug 4, 2007 9:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

someone needs to chart this

for the VEB archive thingy...

"This is a ball club with issues." -Nats announcers (talking about the Cardinals)

by SleepyCA on Aug 4, 2007 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

we lacked scrap on the mound

go go gadget Aaron Miles

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Aug 4, 2007 9:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

2 pitches

1 out

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson

by birds 4 life on Aug 4, 2007 9:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

8 pitches

2 outs

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson

by birds 4 life on Aug 4, 2007 9:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

10 pitches

3 outs

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson

by birds 4 life on Aug 4, 2007 9:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

so noone liked my bad movie analogy?

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/comments/2007/8/4/63311/33321/92/post#here

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Aug 4, 2007 9:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

stupid tony

if he had brought miles in to pitch in the 5th, this game would still be 1-1.

"This is a ball club with issues." -Nats announcers (talking about the Cardinals)

by SleepyCA on Aug 4, 2007 9:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

What can we do from here?

Can Maroth be sent down? If not, hey should at least make him feign an injury for the 15 day DL.

How else can we cut deadwood? We need to get Ryan, Ankiel, and Schumaker up here. I would at least send down Ludwick. He's been good off the bench, but we need more than that.

And congrats to Miles.

by enoscountry on Aug 4, 2007 9:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Fear...

The 73 to 76-mph 2-seamer.

Put him in the rotation!

by whopperman on Aug 4, 2007 9:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i honestly think I could dial it up to 75

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Aug 4, 2007 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I throw high 70s.

And I'm left handed!

Sign me, Tony!

by craig3410 on Aug 4, 2007 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm left-handed

and I throw high 80's! i KNOW i could do better than most of the jokers out there now... Why not give me a minimum contract in a year that has seen Scott Spiezio and Aaron frickin' Miles pitch?

by Jhusk on Aug 5, 2007 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is it sad

That the best two pitchers on our team (from an ERA standpoint) are two utility players?

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson

by birds 4 life on Aug 4, 2007 9:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I wonder if Miles will will the post game award

for best Card pitcher.

by DriverZn on Aug 4, 2007 9:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Switch roles

Do you remember when the pitchers were out-hitting our hitters? Now our hitters are out-pitching our pitchers.

by Schnick24 on Aug 4, 2007 9:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Kip Wells

still has the third best BA on our team. Wagonmaker's not so shabby either at .270.

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson

by birds 4 life on Aug 4, 2007 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder if Speezer is pissed about being

taken out of the game early so he couldn't pitch.

by BTown Birds fan on Aug 4, 2007 9:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Sweet Lord

just looking at the pitching lines on Gameday is enough to make your laugh and cry...

Miles 1 0 0 0 0 0...

Everybody else...

by glennrwordman on Aug 4, 2007 9:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

sickening

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Aug 4, 2007 9:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Well at least

we don't have to face the Yankees.

With the way they are hitting they would score 25 runs or more against us.

by KYCards on Aug 4, 2007 9:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I sure hope

there is video of Miles' pitching debut. Can't wait to see the 5'7" midget of fear with the overwhelming 73 mph fastball.

Sparks of Dementia Still Demented.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Aug 4, 2007 9:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I hope he's Rooney's guest

on "Star of the Game."

by BTown Birds fan on Aug 4, 2007 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

hey

at least he got the job done

"The two most important things in life: good friends and a strong bullpen." - Bob Gibson

by birds 4 life on Aug 4, 2007 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would have Speez or Miles

pitch again before I would ever put Maroth back out there.

by KYCards on Aug 4, 2007 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rooney - passive aggressive

he did NOT pick Aaron Miles for star-of-the-game, although he did pay him a sarcastic compliment, and then played a little radio clip.

The point is, for star of the game, they picked: no-body

by CurtFlood on Aug 4, 2007 10:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Time to start cheering for the Brewers...

I'm still cheering for the Cardinals every game they play, but now I want the Brewers to keep winning. I don't want the Cubs in the playoffs.

- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Aug 4, 2007 10:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Been doing that for quite some time.

Of course, I recognized this Cards team was bad a long time ago AND I live in Chicago.

Cubs fans make cheering for the Brewers real easy. Espeically after Wednesday night when they won and climbed into a tie for first....I recieved 6 text messages letting me know the Cubs were in first and they were heading to the World Series.

Go Brew Crew.

by Big Red on Aug 4, 2007 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that was shameful

if maroth isn't off the roster by noon tomorrow, this team has problems. why schumaker was sent down tuesday when pineiro wasn't used until saturday is also a mystery, as is maroth's continued presence on the roster after wednesday (which SHOULD have been enough, if last friday or the four outings before that weren't). getting beat 12-1 by the nats, leaving that many runners on base, and having aaron miles be your best pitched should NEVER happen to any team, especially the "defending world champions." really, really bad. and i was pretty optimistic on monday. the season is officially over now (if it wasn't on monday, and it didn't seem that way to me then).

by willievinceterry on Aug 4, 2007 10:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

this guy on the KTRS post-game show

is DOWN... mumbling and reading the team the riot act.

by CurtFlood on Aug 4, 2007 10:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He did this a couple weeks ago too

His name is Mike Clayborne.

I was actually shocked he wasn't fired for his tirade a couple of weeks ago after we lost a different blow-out.

I can understand being mad at the team, heck we all are, but this guy just lacked the professionalism that he should have working for the flagship station to the Cardinals. Just seemed kind of childish and unprofessional to me.

I didn't get to hear his riot act tonight, but I can imagine it wasn't pretty. Last times he just about cussed on the air, did he do that tonight?

by KYCards on Aug 4, 2007 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

he mumbled a lot

and spoke very slowly and repetitively. It was like he was so mad he was catatonic. (depressed).
Also, I thought his name was John, but I could be wrong.

He said he was going to challenge LaRussa tomorrow on a radio show to "justify" ever starting Jim Edmonds again (see my other post below)

by CurtFlood on Aug 4, 2007 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Didn't listen

but that could have been John Hadley.

by Big Red on Aug 4, 2007 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It could have been John

I didn't listen tonight. I am almost positive it was Clayborne who went on a VERY angry triade about 3 weeks ago or so.

If I am mistaken my appoligies to Clayborne.

by KYCards on Aug 4, 2007 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

meh

edmonds was 2 for 4 with a walk. He did his job today. Granted, the pop up with the bases loaded was frustrating... and falling down in CF was embarrassing, but there's no way he gets the out at home anyway.

"This is a ball club with issues." -Nats announcers (talking about the Cardinals)

by SleepyCA on Aug 4, 2007 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

veb humor returns

i missed the game, saw the score, and came to read the game thread before checking the box score, wrap, or video first.

the best thing to be said for this type of punishment is that i haven't been lol with tears to the eyes reading veb in a long time. it's great to see the humor return, as it becomes impossible to take this club seriously.

i loved watching speez pitch earlier this year, and now hope i can get video of miles. after a good laugh reading the thread here, i'll have to go check out the box score and cry.

Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Aug 4, 2007 10:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Bonds ties Aaron...

Ol' Balloon Head just hit #755. Today just keeps getting worse....

by BTown Birds fan on Aug 4, 2007 10:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

And of course

Bonds hits it stands there and just watches the ball go into the stands before he takes off around the bases.

I guess it shouldn't but that bothered me a little. I wonder what he will do when he breaks the record?

by KYCards on Aug 4, 2007 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

hopefully not that

gay spin he did during his chase...

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Aug 4, 2007 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I really hate that Bonds is breaking the

record. He's such an unlikable fellow, and yeah, I think he cheated. On the bright side, A Rod got his 500th today, he just turned 32 last month and he plays everyday, every game. In fact, we looked up his record and the last time he spent on the DL was back in 2000. That record is going to get broken by A Rod, and then I think it will stand for a long time......except then I look at Griffey, Jr. and think would could have been......

by jillsinmo on Aug 4, 2007 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

orel just said some weird stuff about steroids

how many times did you know when you faced a guy that he was on something? well suspected, but it was more about being around them in the locker room showring and noticing that that has changed or this changed.

um orel thats just weird...i know what ya meant but weird

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Aug 4, 2007 11:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

blame list 101

before I lost the feed (mlb-radio) it was very interesting to hear the call-in show guy on KTRS. The biggest focus of his low-key but very angry tirade centered on Jim Edmonds.
He was at pains to praise Jimbo highly... for his past accomplishments, and litanized some jaw-dropping statistics (re Edmonds) for the six-year period 2000-2005. But, the other shoe dropping was as close as one can get to 'Jimbo's gotta go'; moreover, he seemed to lay a heavy amount of blame on Edmonds' shoulders for this current team's ... uh... poor performance.

Anyway, it got my brain to twirling on a conjuring of MY blame list (partly because MY list is not based on expectations, but on ON-FIELD performace, to the extent that I have seen with my own eyes and/or heard or read about... and on THAT basis, ol' Jimbo is NOT very high on the blame list.)

After all, if you based it on pre-season expectaions-slash-career numbers... No. 1 on the blame list would be Chris Carpenter !!
Huh? How can you blame a guy that didn't even play.
That criterion is mixed with Edmonds, who HAS been playing, despite some DL time and out-and-out benching; but the fact is he has 200 less plate appearances this year than does Pujols, who leads the Cardinals by far this year.

Anyway, I wonder how MY finger-point list compares to others:
1. Wells 2. Kennedy 3. Reyes 4. Eckstein 5. Flores 6. Edmonds 7. Taguchi 8. Rolen 9. Looper 10 Thompson

by CurtFlood on Aug 4, 2007 11:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

a friend of mine and i have a theory

they people like to blame these two things for whatever they can: The war in Iraq, and Global warming...Gas prices, etc fall into these categories...Im not getting into politics or points of view just sharing a joke...

Oh i live on the west coast(moved here) its worth noting..just different..i luv it but different...

So I blame the hig gas prices of why they cant go get an effective pitcher..global warming on the second baseman problem...the heat has effected kennedy's stroke...

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Aug 4, 2007 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The war in Iraq, global warming,

and Tony La Russa

by baw on Aug 5, 2007 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I blame Barry Bonds

by jillsinmo on Aug 5, 2007 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reading Material to take your mind off now...

and to think about the future.

Project Prospect has an interview up of Colby Rasmus

by Big Red on Aug 4, 2007 11:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

it WOULD be something

to see a starting outfield of Duncan, Rasmus and Ankiel in the not too distant up-coming games against the Cubs and Brewers (in other words, games that MEAN something -- to the other team at least).

I'd really like to see what they can do in a pressure situation

by CurtFlood on Aug 5, 2007 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

mike claiborne

in regards to mike caliborne and his post-game assessment....i didnt hear tonight post-game but claibs is usually one of the most objective rational reasonable and moreover realistic radio hosts in the st louis media. at least twice over the past month when people call in and demand that we spend more money to get better pitching via free agency he has named EVERY free agent pitcher after this year and that class sucks outside zambrano. sorry i dont know if it was claiborne tonight or not but he should not be criticised for his candor and honesty

baseball is like church. many attend but few understand....wes westrum, catcher

by El Capitan on Aug 5, 2007 12:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

sorry bout the rant

but if anyone is good about reporting on this team and being real its claiborne and he actually works for the team

baseball is like church. many attend but few understand....wes westrum, catcher

by El Capitan on Aug 5, 2007 12:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

On a lighter note...

In the 9th inning of the Giants-Padres game Steve Kline was pulled from the game after the Padres brought in pinch-hitter Jake Peavy. While no particular gestures were shown, it was pretty clear that Kliner was less than pleased.

by bailorg on Aug 5, 2007 1:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I live in a world

where the St. Louis Cardinals manager:

Does

Bat the pitcher 8th
Brings in lefties to face lefty-killing lefties
Bats a RH batter against lefties that his sub-.200 against them
Uses position players to pitch

Doesn't

Pull struggling pitchers after 100 pitches
Use pinch-hitters for the pitcher in the 6th inning in tied/1 run games
Use the suicide squeeze anymore
Play 2nd basemen at 2nd base and SS at Shortstop

I like the quirky stuff he does, it makes things fun and interesting but it'd be nice if he'd do the 'traditional' things when warranted, too.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Aug 5, 2007 2:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Like your list HL

The lack of the suicide squeeze is only one indicator that tlr has changed. It seams as though he is now using plays like "suicide delayed pitching changes", "suicide lefty match-ups", and "suicide fielder positioning", in addition to "suicide veteran career ending proove they really can't play anymore".

There must be a sabermetrician way to show that tlr's managing has changed, and it doesn't look like a slump that he's going to break out of. It could be a career ending precipitous drop in baseball prowess just like the players all eventually suffer, but I don't think the stats have ever been established to judge managers the same way.

I've enjoyed tony's world for years, but the day's of trying to plug a hole between veterans with a reclamation project need to end. Time to retire the has-beens, say thank you, and suffer the mistakes of the wanna bees. Some results might be the same, but more useful to be on the rise than the decline.

Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Aug 5, 2007 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bonds

listening to SD broadcasters they ripped him for being horrible in this chase regardless of allegations just him and his demanor...

then tonight he thanks everyone short of lbros at the podeium...gives best wishes to glavine, congrats to a-rod, thanks to the SDfans, peanut vindors and the guy who shot him in th ebutt with the needle in the 4th...

its funny cause not to long ago he said 500 was just a # this is history now hes all over alexs accomplishment...its werid seeing him be nice

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Aug 5, 2007 2:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Fraternity

now he said we baseball players need to stick together...sickening to me. he said all this stops when we learn to stick together...who is the unity guy?

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Aug 5, 2007 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs