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Post ASB rotation announced

Apparently, Tony didn't want this hanging over his head during the vacation:

Per dgoold

Fri at PHI ... Kip Wells
Sat at PHI ... Mike Maroth
Sun at Phi ... Adam Wainwright

Mon at Fla ... Braden Looper
Tues at Fla ... Brad Thompson
Wed at Fla ... Kip Wells

Star-divide

The Kippers against Philly makes sense, as he has dominated them in his career.  I can only hope that Wed at Fla is really going to be Carpenter with Kip/Wellemyer facing release.

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okay
i hope this is the start of tony:

a) making more sense in his decisions

b) keeping brad thompson in the rotation

i like the move to start wells and demote wellemeyer to the bullpen. when carp comes back, wellemeyer should be the one to go with wells going to the bullpen.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 8, 2007 6:46 PM EDT reply actions  

Looks good to me
Here's the link to that entry, by the way.

Carpenter's next start should be the 13th against the Clearwater Threshers. If he was asked to do another rehab start, it would be the 18th against the Lakeland Flying Tigers (?). If he only does the start against the Threshers for his third rehab start, he'd be inline to replace Wells on the 18th for the last game against the Marlins.

I'd like to see Wells succeed as a starter for the second half. If he doesn't pitch well against the Phillies after the break, I guess he'd be back in his long-man role where he's been thriving of late.

by liam on Jul 8, 2007 7:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Goold's entry
Says that Wellemeyer's returning to the bullpen.

I'll take a stab at the post-ASB pitching roster:

Rotation:
Looper
Maroth
Thompson
Wainwright
Wells

Bullpen:
Flores
Franklin
Izzy
Johnson
Percival
Springer
Wellemeyer

That's Cate returning to AAA for TJ's return from the DL. Say Carp gets two more rehab starts and returns for the opener against the Cubs on July 24th. At that point, either Thompson would be optioned to AAA or Wells sent to long-relief and Wellemeyer DFA'd—barring injury to one of the other pitchers.

Ideally, Wells pitches great and we're forced to send Thompson to AAA for starter depth. If Wellemeyer returns to the form he showed in the bullpen after coming over to the Cards (8:1 K:BB as a Cardinal reliever; 1.3 K:BB as a Cardinal starter) he'd be too valuable to get rid of. If he went back to the form he showed as a Royal, we'd be better off moving Thompson or Wells to the bullpen.

Somebody's got to go to make room for Carp. Ideally, everyone's pitching well enough to stick around and then Thompson's the odd man out.

by liam on Jul 8, 2007 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

i agree with your pre-carp roster
but ideally, everyone pitches great and flores is the one DFAd. too bad TLR would never do that.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 8, 2007 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just posted on the game thread, but I should
have posted it here:

Maybe I'm in the minority based on a few comments I've seen here, but I'd rather see Wellemeyer and Wells stay where they are for the immediate future. They both seem to be doing fairly well - obviously Wells has been very good since he went to the bullpen, and Wellemeyer isn't setting the world on fire but he keeps us in games and doesn't give up many big innings. It would be nice if he went a little deeper into games, but will Wells be an improvement?

Maybe I've just got too many bad memories of Wells' starts. He's obviously pitching different out of the bullpen, but I'm not at all convinced that will translate to his starts.

Speaking of our bullpen, did you see the ERAs we threw at SF today? 1.42, 1.59, 1.23, and 1.53 for Cate, Percival, Franklin, and Izzy. I know Cate and Percival especially are small sample sizes, but those are fun numbers to see. Throw in Spiezio's 0 ERA and BAA, and that's a pretty solid bullpen!

by BTown Birds fan on Jul 8, 2007 11:15 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm for Wells as starter
The past few weeks have done well in building up both Wells and Wellemeyer's confidence and there's so much more upside to Wells as starter. We need to give him another shot to resurrect his career and having Wellemeyer in the 'pen at least gives Tony and Duncan a short leash with him.

It's worth another try, at least. If he can take the success he's had out of the bullpen and bring it with him to starting every fifth day, we'll be in great shape.

by liam on Jul 9, 2007 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

i agree
that wellemeyer and wells should be left where they are. why mess with a good thing? isn't wells' ERA in relief 1 or so? the cards are 7-1 in welley's starts, why change it? maybe wells could pan out as another reliable starter turned reliever such as franklin?
I can throw 75 mph fastballs for 5 innings. When's my tryout?

by flipthebird15 on Jul 9, 2007 12:48 AM EDT reply actions  

TLR seems to think that Wells has worked out
his command issues.  If he has truly done this, then Wells does belong in the rotation.  He certainly has proven that he can throw strikes in the 'pen.  

We're getting quite the bullpen logjam, though.  Surely there is some sort of trade or something in the works.  A guy with an ERA in the 1s that you're using as a mop-up guy is worth more in trade than what you're getting out of him.

by Valatan on Jul 9, 2007 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wells, again
I think the start against the Phillies is the only one he is getting.  What he does in that start will determine his status.  He either:

1)Goes to the bullpen
2)Replaces Thompson in rotation
3)Is DFA'd.

Wells great career line against the Phillies is what is giving him this start, along with his willingness to go to the bullpen and work out his problems.  This buys them 1 more 5 day cycle without Carpenter.  I'd imagine in his next rehab start, he'll air it out to about 60 pitches and then finally in his last one, he'll throw 70+.

I'd be stunned if Wells starts againt the Marlins, unless he takes Thompson's spot.

Thompson still has options left, correct?  I'd imagine he'll be headed down to Memphis so that they don't have to release Wellemeyer or Wells right away.

THAT may make me cry.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 9, 2007 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

I hope not
Thompson has been our most consistent starter this year. Considering the guy is 25, we should definitely keep giving him a shot at the rotation. He could turn out to be a guy who secures a spot for a long time.

Cardinals management should basically look at Reyes' spot and simply acknowledge that it switched to Thompson. They planned the season for Reyes being in the rotation, so now that Thompson has proved he deserves the spot, they shouldn't mess with it.

Wells should have to string together much more than one good start in order to take the spot of a guy who has been for the most part our only consistent starter.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 9, 2007 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well(s)emeyer
In all honesty, Wellemeyer is NOT a starting pitcher.  He has pitched reasonably well in that role in us since coming over from KC, but he hasn't pitched deep into games, save for a few occasions.  

Kip Wells might have been horrible, but I like his chances of parlaying his success in the pen into a starting role better than that of Wellemeyer sustaining whatever sort of relative success he's had as a starter.

Also, remember that Wellemeyer was a mess in KC.  It seems like he's stabilized, somewhat and might be an effective weapon out of the pen.  

Although, if it came down to it, I think I like Thompson as a starter over a possibly resurgent Wells...

"The steak may be tough, but you can always slide your fork through the gravy."

by KennyWang on Jul 9, 2007 3:38 AM EDT reply actions  

bullpen surplus
Every contender/pretender is looking for bullpen help. I'd like to see Flores go for outfield speed/defensive help. Bullpen arms can fetch good prospects this time of year.

by vinniefromjersey on Jul 9, 2007 8:38 AM EDT reply actions  

I can't see them trading a lefty bullpen guy,
because of depth reasons.  TLR likes to have 2 lefties in the pen, and right now there are 3 on the depth chart.  If they trade one, then there's no insurance policy in the event that one gets hurt.  After Cate, I don't see any credible lefty options in the minors.

by CardFaninVA on Jul 9, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree
I can't help but think that Springer might bring in a somewhat decent prospect if need be.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 10, 2007 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

I put this in the morning thread..
My idea is that we might be able to trade Springer ( one of our stalwarts and one guy I love to see enter a game, but probably our most trade-able bullpen piece) for some prospects.  Since we will always have 2 LHP in the pen (Cate, TJ or Flores) a right hander will have to go to make room for Carp (unless the unthinkable happens and Flores is let go, Cate demoted and Maroth moved to relief...please don't do that) Springer to me just seems like the odd man out if a contending team can give the Cards a good enough deal, Springer + JRod to an AL team might work really well too.

by StLHugo on Jul 9, 2007 10:01 AM EDT reply actions  

Here's the way it should be.
I hate these horrible ideas that if Wells is pitching good in the bullpen, it means he will be a good starter.  Like someone said above, he could be our next Ryan Franklin, starter-turned-reliever (I also hope Franklin never goes back to starting).

At the same time, after Wellemeyer pitched so flawlessly the other day, why are we going to punish him by dropping him to the bullpen and bring up Wells?  Makes no sense, and sends Wellemeyer mixed signals.

Here's how it should be:

Wainwright
Maroth
Thompson
Looper
Wellemeyer

Once Carpenter comes back we replace Wellemeyer with him.  At this point Wellemeyer goes to the bullpen, and we should cut our losses and release Wells.  We cut Sidney Ponson when he had a 4-4 record.  I don't care that Wells is four times as expensive as Ponson was, I still say keeping him around with his record makes no sense.

Once Mulder comes back we either replace Thompson or Looper.  We'll see who is doing better by then.

by Ghost on Jul 9, 2007 9:12 PM EDT reply actions  

don't
release anyone with out trying to move them. Now that Wells has pitched well from the pen there maybe a market for him. Keep giving him innings out off the pen. This will build his marketablity.

by nybirdfan on Jul 9, 2007 9:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Bullpen logjam
IMHO, they should help clear the logjam a bit by "announcing" that Flores has an injury of some sort and banishing him to the DL for a while.  He's been by far the worst of the remaining bullpenners.

Putting Flores on the DL would allow them to keep Cate with the big club once TJ returns, plus provide a little more time before Carp returns to evaluate Wells and Wellemeyer...who, quite frankly, have both done a better job than Flores from the bullpen this season.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jul 10, 2007 12:47 AM EDT reply actions  

Keep Thompson!
I like what I see of this guy. He is a young player who I think we can still mold into a good starter if need be. Sending him up and down will do him no good.

I don't like Wells as a starter, but having him as a long man would be nice. He can eat some innings, and also holds a .191 career batting average so doesn't have to be pinch hit for every time. Him being there would cut down on the bullpen innings and possibly free up a reliever or two for trade.

  1. Carpenter
  2. Wainwright
  3. Maroth
  4. Looper
  5. Thompson
I like how that looks. Then we get some heat and long innings back in the bullpen with Wellemyer and Wells.

Hopefully Mulder can get back this year and we can have Looper and Thompson battle it out, and then our bullpen is set with Thompson/Looper, Flores, Franklin, Izzy, Johnson, Percival, Springer, Wellemeyer, and Wells. Along with Reyes, we now have some good trade bait.

I wouldn't mind seeing Izzy, Wells, Juan, and Eckstein all traded off at the deadline. Those four combine for over 22 million this season, and in my eyes can be replaced within the organization. But I guess thats a different topic.

Give Jose a chance!

by warpig2003 on Jul 10, 2007 10:08 AM EDT reply actions  

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