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Around SBN: Knicks Beat Lakers With Familiar Strategy

Game 84 Open Thread: July 7, 2007

lincecum

looper

3-2, 4.64

6-6, 4.65

GAME TIME 6:15 CDT

i'm back from vacation; hugely successful and enjoyable family reunion. my thanks to everybody who handled the front-page posting during the week and kept an eye on the site --- outstanding job by everybody. the team didn't look too bad either, for whatever that's worth; yes they're about to get healthier, and they still have 21 games against the two teams they're chasing, but you can't like their chances. immediately after the all-star break, the cardinals face a 10-game road trip to philadelphia, florida, and atlanta, while both the cubs and brewers will enjoy 10-game home stands. milwaukee is 30-13 at home this season; how far off the pace will the cards be by late july, when they finally get to face the brewers head to head? maybe too far back for the games to mean anything.

some assorted impressions for a saturday morning:

  • the wreck of reyes continued last night at triple A; anthony gave up 3 homers and 4 walks in 4.2 innings. the dimming of his prospects this year is a significant blow to the organization, no matter whose fault it is --- and i'm as sick of going around in circles on the "whose fault" debate as you are, so let's try not to go there. young pitchers are the most highly prized talents in the game today; you hate to see one of those fail, for any reason. while it's still too soon to call reyes a failure, i think it's not too soon to conclude that his opportunity to succeed in this organization has expired. he needs a change of scenery. the cardinals need to move on. bad outcome.
  • the cards might partially redeem that failure by leaving brad thompson in the rotation the rest of the year. once carpenter comes back, there'll be one slot left in the rotation, and la russa has declared wells, wellemeyer, and thompson to be in a "competition" for that slot. how short-sighted; how ridiculous. one of la russa's biggest weaknesses as a manager has always been his faith in competition --- the belief that player abilities can prove out over an arbitrary two-week (or two-month, or whatever) period. in truth, they prove out over the long haul. both wellemeyer and wells have a longstanding record of ruinous control problems ---- they're not able to throw strikes consistently. if they should happen to throw strikes in the next two or three weeks, so flippin' what? they'll still be pitchers who don't throw enough strikes. brad thompson throws strikes --- always has, always will. he doesn't do anything else particularly well, but a lotta guys have built 10-year careers on strike-throwing alone --- one of them, mike maroth, ranks as a front-line starter in the cards' current rotation. thompson is young, cheap, and above all unformed --- unlike wells and wellemeyer, he's not a proven failure. so screw the "competition"; give the job to the player who might have a future.
  • during my vacation, i watched part of a game with somebody who has gotten to know mike shannon and family pretty well, on account of mrs shannon's illness. (her outlook is pretty grim.) my source said that shannon characterizes this team as an extraordinarily unhappy one --- a bunch of guys with long faces who seem not to realize they're the luckiest peple on earth, getting paid millions of dollars to play a game. according to my source, shannon avoids contact with these players except when he's working --- doesn't share beers and stories with them away from the ballpark, at the bar on road trips or whatever. add that hearsay to the various impressions and hints relayed by miklasz and the rest of the p-d sportswriters. the cardinals went through similar throes in 1986 and again in 1990; this season bears much in common with both of those fruitless campaigns.
  • the cardinals' team era over their last 17 games is 3.39. over the first 35 games of the year, their team era was a respectable 4.10. but during the 31 games in the middle (from may 14 through june 17), the cardinals' team era was 6.39.

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Shannon
That is a real shame that the players do not appreciate Shannon for what he is:  Mainly a great storyteller and baseball man that is loved by almost everyone.  I don't understand what is going on with the personality of this team.  I feel like guys like Rolen and Pujols seem to be coasting in mediocrity.  I kknow .308, 16 hrs, and 51 rbis, is not mediocrity for most, but it is for Pujols.  What is going on with him?  Is he to content.

by briferg07 on Jul 7, 2007 10:37 AM EDT reply actions  

All
of your substitute posters did a great job in your absence.  Welcome back, glad your vacation was a success.  One thought - if the Cards are such a grim team (and I am not disputing your source in the least), why did Franklin's people approach management about an extension?  One of his reasons for wishing to stay appeared to be that he was happy here (my words, not his).  

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 10:46 AM EDT reply actions  

Good insight on Thompson
He does deserve an opportunity.  There will be days when he is hit hard, when his sinker isn't sinking.  But he might be able to carve out a nice career as a starter if given the chance.

He's also not the hard thrower that LaRussa likes for the pen either.  Wells and Wellemeyer fit that bill better.  If Thompson can become an effective starter, he offers us a trading chip, either with him or with Maroth or Looper.

by chuckb on Jul 7, 2007 10:46 AM EDT reply actions  

Why trade Thompson?
He's the same age as Reyes and just as cheap. Obviously he's never going to put the up the Ks that we were expecting out of Reyes, but couldn't it be possible that Thompson is the prospect pitcher we've needed? I've always felt that Thompson should have had a shot at being a starter, and really, the whole reason he was in relief was because his first call up was when the Redbirds needed some bullpen help.

I agree with Larry that maybe it's just time to ship Reyes. Thompson and Wainers can be the new young gun pitchers on this club. That offers us less worry in trading Reyes and maybe we can actually get something pretty good in return.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 7, 2007 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree
if he becomes effective, we could have an excess of starters in the offseason.  Maybe he could bring more in return than the others b/c he's cheaper.  Who knows?  I wouldn't close the door on trading anyone.

by chuckb on Jul 7, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think so...
I still do not think we will have an excess of starters in the offseason.

We will have:

Carpenter - a starter, DL several times
Mulder - a starter, DL several times
Wainwright - a starter/former reliever, getting hit harder this year
Reyes - a starter, can't pitch nearly as well in the show
Maroth - a starter, career of mediocrity
Wellemeyer - a former reliever
Looper - a former reliever
Thompson - a former reliever
Wells - a starter, career of less than mediocrity
Keisler - a starter, pretty bad when in the show
Narveson - a minor league starter

That's 2 starters that have spent a lot of recent time on the DL, quite a few starters that have been hit very hard a lot of times, and a couple of relievers that can start a few games.

Now, that being completely pessimistic...I do believe that everything could work out just fine with a rotation of Carpenter, Mulder, Maroth, Waino, Reyes, and/or Thompson.  I just do not think we have much trade bait in that equation.

stlfan

by stlfan on Jul 7, 2007 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with you
that the chances of the Cardinals "coming back" and winning the race in the Central Division are slim... but with TLR at the helm, he's gonna try to get the Birds back to .500, get as many players healthy as possible, and then see if they can make a run...

I also think Thompson is the best choice to remain in the rotation after Carp returns... while he doesn't throw 95 MPH like Wellemeyer, and WonderBrad lacks Wells' "electric" stuff, he does throw strikes "down" in the zone, and he's a ground-ball machine! In other words, he gets people OUT!!! (Isn't that listed in any pitcher's "job description"?)

It would be interesting to know just which players are "unhappy"... of course, the most competitive personalities can't be happy with the team's play this season; I suspect Scotty Rolen is ticked about his own performance (i.e., lack of power) and may be grumpy about it. Of course, Shannon might not be spending much time around the players because of his (undeniably stressful) personal situation... or maybe he's just enough older than the players not to have much in common with them.

Every team needs a Reggie Sanders/Preston Wilson personality... a guy who's optimistic, joking, and keeping other players "loose". I have no idea if there's anybody on the current roster filling that role.

Ah, well... Go get 'em, Loop!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jul 7, 2007 11:00 AM EDT reply actions  

Tony on 'competition'
I really think that Tony has made his decision.  I think that he likes to keep the notion of competition alive so that all three guys fight and struggle to earn that rotation spot.

He's shown several times what he means when he says that there's a 'competition' for a spot, going all the way back to the Clayton/Ozzie fiasco in his first year hear up until the Wainwright/Ponson rotation spot audition last year.

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 11:08 AM EDT reply actions  

Oh, also
nice to see you back, Loop.  

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

And the giants starter actually looks younger than
WonderBrad.  The Giants need to stop drafting from Berkeley middle school

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why?
their 45 MPH fastballs and 42 MPH change-ups do a good job of getting the cards out.

by Harknights on Jul 7, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Of course
Lincecum throws 98 mph.

by Jhusk on Jul 7, 2007 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

For now
Pujols currently < Career godliness.

by joker24 on Jul 7, 2007 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

"...but you can't like their chances"
I hope this has the same effect as "the offense is repaired".  You damn near destroyed Pujols with that one! :D
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 7, 2007 11:10 AM EDT reply actions  

Reyes & Garza
nice comment on Twin's Garza at: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070706&content_id=2072007&vkey=recap&fex t=.jsp&c_id=mlb

     «Garza predominantly used his fastball, but he worked in his other pitches as well -- something the Twins organization has been urging him to do this season. Garza was, at first, reluctant to mix in other pitches, [...]
     "They sent me to work on stuff and get my breaking stuff more consistent. I told them when I came up here that I was ready and I could throw any pitch in any count, and I did that. »

i.e. there are ways to get it done.

From Curaçao, the friendly island in the Caribbean

by Johnny64 on Jul 7, 2007 11:17 AM EDT reply actions  

Garza has roughly 100x the talent that Reyes has..
they aren't even on the same stratosphere. Garza put up Ankiel-esque nintendo numbers throughout his time in the minor leagues. He can also throw his high heat 98+ mph, where as Reyes , at his best, hits 94 or so.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jul 7, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pssh
Nolan Ryan could throw 102 mph in RBI baseball and complimented it with the 67 mph 'flutter' ball that would bounce at homeplate.

Neither of those guys can hold his 'Nintendo-jock'.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 7, 2007 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's all about the "Nintendo Jock"
Good pitching will beat good hitting any time, and vice versa. ~Bob Veale, 1966

by bukowski on Jul 7, 2007 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ryan
And with all that, he always came up short in the big games and was barely a .500 pitcher, despite the 7 no-hitters and innumerable strikeouts. Give me Whitey Ford or Warren Spahn, not to mention Gibson or Koufax, anytime.

by MikeG on Jul 7, 2007 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I loved RBI
I've never seen my friends more frustrated than when I bludgeoned them to death with singles, stolen bases, and the occasional Jack Clark homer. I may go play that now...
The Falcoholic
The SBNation's Atlanta Falcons Blog

by Dave Choate on Jul 7, 2007 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

take another look
at Reyes's numbers, particularly in AAA.

by DanUpBaby on Jul 7, 2007 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't believe I missed seeing Lincecum
by one night. Instead I got to watch So Taguchi get hit with a ball and fall on his arse. grumble grumble. . . Go Redbirds!

by azruavatar on Jul 7, 2007 11:18 AM EDT reply actions  

LBoros: Tanned, Ready & Rested
Welcome back, Larry, and hats off to everyone who filled in so admirably during your absence.  I especially enjoyed the analysis by (I think it was) HoustonCardinal the other day.
"This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains."

by AustinBOB on Jul 7, 2007 12:13 PM EDT reply actions  

If I'm Brad,
I'm not holding my breath on staying in the rotation. LaRussa put him through the same thing last year in ST, when he obviously had already decided on Sir Sidney.
And frankly, you really don't have to be an insider to see the unhappiness on this team, if you look closely. That's in no way a slight to your source, LB, just an observation on my part; I'm not one to wear the rose-colored(or in this case, Cardinal red-colored) glasses like so many fans do. Anyway, unless this team pulls off an Astros-like comeback in the second half, it's time to look toward 2008 and beyond.
"It's always about money; anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jul 7, 2007 12:46 PM EDT reply actions  

TLR's funny little quotes
"I don't think you can pay attention to [Ludwick's] numbers," La Russa said. "He doesn't have enough of them. We have to get him more at-bats. There's no reason he can't be equally effective against both. He hasn't played enough. You can't just make a judgment."

        AB   H  2B 3B HR RBI  BB IBB  SO HBP  ROE GDP  BA   OBP   SLG   OPS  
Duncan  54  13  4  0  1   8   4   1  22   1   0   1  .241  .305  .370  .675  
Ludwick 53   9  3  0  1   5   1   0  13   0   2   0  .170  .185  .283  .468  

Why does Ryan Ludwick get that benefit and Chris Duncan does not?  

Chris now has 103 career at-bats against lefties and is hitting     .223/.279/.398/.677.  
Ludwick now has 187 career at-bats against lefties and is hitting .193/.245/.406/.651.

What exactly does Larussa think is GOING to happen?  For a guy who loves his splits, this one is mind boggling.  Does Tony want him to raise his season average to this career line, which would STILL be less than his weight?

Free Chris Duncan!

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 7, 2007 2:05 PM EDT reply actions  

re: splits
The difference is that lefties who can't hit lefties are an established phenomena, whereas righties who can't hit lefties (as well as they hit righties) are almost always sample size illusions. It just doesn't happen.

by DanUpBaby on Jul 7, 2007 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Reyes...
depressing stuff. Never would have guessed Game One of the WS would be his last win for the Cards (barring an offseason trade).

What's needed is a challenge trade for another struggling prospect. Pelfrey, Milledge, Quentin, Floyd all come to mind...

Fire LaJocketty, Hire DePodesta!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 7, 2007 2:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Boy,
I'd love to get Quentin for him!

by chuckb on Jul 7, 2007 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah...
I've seen a lot of Quentin. In AAA he looked like Pujols jr., but since he's been called up he seems to be overmatched. Lots of flailing, very little contact. He's hopeless against breaking stuff. His ability to get HBP hasn't really translated to the majors either.

That said, I'd take him for Reyes straight up in a heart beat.  

Fire LaJocketty, Hire DePodesta!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 7, 2007 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is depressing
I still think he has a chance to be a good major league pitcher.  I posted here right after he was sent down that he looked shell-shocked and sounded like a babbling idiot while being interviewed on TV.  I said they finally killed him and everyone said that I was being melodramatic, but I think up until that day he believed in himself, even if they didn't.  It's not too late for him to go and redeem himself in the second half, and I suspect he will.  But it's obvious that LaDunc's guidance has not been helpful to him; the more he tries to pitch their way the worse the results are.  So here's to the kid,I never felt that he stopped trying, hope he's shipped out if LaDunc is back for next season.

by jillsinmo on Jul 7, 2007 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

TLR obviously has his
own variant of English.  The words "competition," "ready," and "numbers" have a special meaning that only he knows.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 7, 2007 2:26 PM EDT reply actions  

The problem
with trading Reyes now is that another team has to be willing to take him(would you if you were another GM?). And even if they do, the Cardinals won't get anything of real worth in return, unless they package him with another prospect or two.
"It's always about money; anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jul 7, 2007 4:24 PM EDT reply actions  

I wouldn't trade Reyes unless 2 things happen
1) Mark Buehrle

which leads to #2
2) Mark Mulder throws successfully in 2 MLB games.  Acquiring Mark Buehrle makes this less critical, but until Mulder shows that he can be counted on in 2008 as a starter they shouldn't be so quick to throw away Reyes' arm.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 7, 2007 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Everyone's aware of your opinion on this
perhaps, as an alternate theory, Reyes is just a young pitcher, and young pitchers do have growing pains, especially when making the jump from AAA to the majors.

Going with youth has a downside, and that downside is that young pitchers are frustratingly inconsistent.  You never know if you have Bill Pulsipher, Chris Carpenter, or Pedro Martinez.  AAA stats often really can't distinguish between the three cases.  Even if they get to the majors and succeed, you get the Mark Priors and Fransisco Liranos of the world.

There's every chance that he will turn it around, and it wildly oversimplifies things to put as much blame for his struggles on TLR and Duncan as you do.  

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree
I don't want to see TLR and Duncan back next year.

We need management that willing to develop young players.  

Just think what our budget would look like had we just put jrod in the outfiled instead of paying for Juan.  Same production, much less cost.

Or what about 2b?  Ryan would out perfom AK at this point.  

When you sign free agents, get the good ones.  But we need to fill out the replacement level stuff from the farm.  

TLR is the reason we have wasted about 20mil over the last few seasons.  He won't play young players so we overpay for the likes of Ponson, Wells, Juan, AK, PW, Belliard, Mulder, ...

TLR needs to go.  His way worked when the economics of baseball were diffrent.  However, they have changed and he has not changed with them.  He is no longer a positive for this team.

by DriverZn on Jul 7, 2007 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

All that money you saved by not signing Juan
and Kennedy wouldn't have payed for half of a yearly contract of a good free agent.  Signing an all-star these days costs about $12M/year, usually for five or so years.  That is four times the yearly rate on Kennedy's contract, and more than twice Juan's, with the added risk of taking on all of those extra years.

Mulder and Enc have played well above replacement level, at least when healthy.  PW cost marginally more than league minimum.  Ponson was signed to a relatively cheap contract, too.  

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Juan, Wells, and AK = Soraino
At least the contract totals do.  This team would be better with him in RF and a random minor leaguer at 2nd.

He is about the only one I would have paid the $ for this offseason.

Average players are not worth $2-6m, but superstars are worth 10-15m.  The reason is you can always easily replace an average player.  Superstars are much harder to find.

by DriverZn on Jul 7, 2007 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know who else was worth the money
Carlos Lee.  At least this year. I don't know what they'll get out of him over the life of the contract, but the Astros run scoring would be about 14 without him---if you are going to spend on a big free agent, better to buy a hitter.  They stay close to their career norms, barring health concerns, than pitchers do---I'd be willing to bet there has been hundreds of millions of dollars spent on pitchers who never pitch because of injury, oh just three off the top of my head, Jason Schmidt, Carl Pavano, Mike Hampton....oh, Randy Wolf, A.J. Burnett--the same A. J. that everyone is dying to get in a Birds uniform.  He's 30 years old and right now on the DL for the TENTH time.  I guess if you don't mind paying someone not to pitch.......go for it

by jillsinmo on Jul 7, 2007 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay, how about we just leave it at
it has not been helpful THIS year. I hope Reyes gets it right, I love his demeanor on the mound, and it would be great if he could get it back on track.......but if LaDunc approaches next year the same way as this year, I fear we'll see the same results......that's just my opinion.  Pedro is the man!  He proabably has been the best pitcher over the last 10 years, at least until Johan Santana has been pitching ten years.

by jillsinmo on Jul 7, 2007 5:35 PM EDT reply actions  

Or he could just be...
...not pitching well for reasons that have to do with his own performance and execution, without it being the fault of La Russa and/or Duncan -- who happen to be one of the most successful manager-pitching coach combos in major league baseball for the past twenty years and do know a little bit about baseball ... whereas Reyes is an unproven talent with very good minor league numbers but little major league success. I'd take La Russa and Duncan (who have a proven track record and know how to win) over Reyes (who doesn't and may or may not) any day of the week.

If we are going to blame La Russa and Duncan for Reyes' failures, we either have to credit them for the success of those who have done well, or blame them for the failures of other pitchers who haven't. Or acknowledge that the manager and pitching coach have a little bit to do with a pitcher's success (or failure), whereas the rest of it is the pitcher's own responsibility.

by willievinceterry on Jul 7, 2007 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't want to argue this so here is the last
thing I'm going to say....of course Reyes is responsible for his own bad pitching....but LaDunc is responsible for insisting he throw pitches he simply cannot throw, and keep insisting he throw them and then making sure everyone in the media knew how unhappy they were with him....and as a final kick on the way down, wringing their hands in a couple of different stories about what they were going to do with him, mentioning that they had looked into trading him and sending him back there right after he actually did pitch a game the way they had wanted him to.  That's no way to treat someone you think has a future in your organization.  I don't care if you all think they are geniusus; their preference for veterans has lead them to make some mistakes that this franchise will pay for for years to come....Yeah, Reyes has to throw strikes, and they can't be out over the meat of the plate, but they sure could of changed their plan when it clearly wasn't working for him....

by jillsinmo on Jul 7, 2007 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mr Boros is back!
Great week of posting by the subs -- i figured we'd just play "heads up 7Up" all week, but nooooo, we had to keep learning.

Following Linecum all season, he has been ridiculously dominating and unbearably bad -- even when he's bad, though, his k/9 #'s are insane. The kid is talented beyond belief. His last two starts he's had 20 k's and 7 hits through through 14 ips (and he walked none in his last outing). He blew up his two previous starts before; frustratingly inconsistent rookie pitchers.

Looking forwards to watching him throw tonight, hopefully Loop is on.

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 7, 2007 5:46 PM EDT reply actions  

A trade-off
We get Duncan in the lineup, but are stuck with Skip in the #6 hole and Spiezio's defense in right (not his best position). The L-R thing is a little extreme with TLR sometimes.

by willievinceterry on Jul 7, 2007 7:20 PM EDT reply actions  

does Pujols wear contacts
if not, does he need them?
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jul 7, 2007 7:27 PM EDT reply actions  

AP the singles hitter
Any chance TLR moves him up to the #1 spot?
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2007 7:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Looper!
I'll forgive the Cardinals if they want to beat up on Lincecum, even though he's on my fantasy team.

by DanUpBaby on Jul 7, 2007 7:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Hrabosky's boner for Lincecum is ridiculous
We get it Al, he's an undersized pitcher and you having been an undersized pitcher think that's overrated.  We also understand that he was the #10 pick.  Also his minor league numbers were straight out of fantasy.  But #1 he's sporting a nice 4.7ish ERA as of now, #2 just gave up a legit RBI double to a pitcher and #3 has already lost 2-3 mph from earlier in the year.  This is like those games in Houston where the guys would say "Rooogggger Clemens" at least 780 times a game...except Lincecum has done about 1/300th what Clemens has.
Pujols currently < Career godliness.

by joker24 on Jul 7, 2007 8:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Lincecum is overrated and should be sent down
Its obvious he needs to learn a sinker and pitch to contact.  With an ERA aproaching 5 its clear he will never be anything for the Giants and should be traded ASAP.  Perhaps they can trade his for an established pitcher.

(Yes that is a joke)

by DriverZn on Jul 7, 2007 8:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Joking or not...
...he's still been way better than Reyes this year...

by willievinceterry on Jul 7, 2007 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Schumaker
Is Skip someone that we think will be a legit major leaguer eventually?  Or do we just like his defense?  i guess what I'm asking is, what is it about him that warrants him starting tonights game?

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 8:16 PM EDT reply actions  

because
I think i remember hearing LaRusa say that Skip would never be a good hitter or something, so he seemed like someone that might be a bench player/defensive replacement.  Are we still trying to get him some experience in hopes that he will eventually become a good player?  I really don't understand what our plan with him is.

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, he hit for an empty average in the
minors, and he hasn't hit well here......he's fill in fodder right now

by jillsinmo on Jul 7, 2007 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

i understand
I was just wondering if the club had long term plans for him.  TLR seems to be a big fan of him or something (maybe he just likes his first name, it kind of reminds me of my grandpa who calls everyone Skip)

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Skip
might be able to push a team toward a AAA championship in the fourth outfielder role.

by DanUpBaby on Jul 7, 2007 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes!
Looper strikes out Barryzoid looking!

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 8:18 PM EDT reply actions  

And a
nice 1-2-3 inning for Loop.

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does pitching to contact keep pitch counts down?
The guys over at hardball times don't think so.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-kazmir-conundrum/

The basic jist is while you have fewer pitcher per AB you end up facing more people since you give up more singles and have more people reach on errors.

I have always been of the belief that they way you keep the pitch count down is to throw strikes and not waste pitches.  If they put it in play, ok.  Otherwise throw 3 and move on to the next batter.

by DriverZn on Jul 7, 2007 8:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Well
Pitching to contact philosophy also cuts down walks whereas for whatever reason, that study has the pitcher's who have seen their k-rates drop haven't dropped their walk rates.
Pujols currently < Career godliness.

by joker24 on Jul 7, 2007 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

All you smart folks here is my question
about pitch to contact--If there is no one on base wouldn't a pop up to second base be a better play, than say a ground ball to third base?  The ground ball has to be caught, thrown, and caught again, with a step on the bag.  The pop is touched by one player and is something most players can do with  their eyes closed.  What about lazy fly ball?  Sharp grounder? Strikeout only requires the catcher to hold the ball.  I know well hit fly balls means a risk for homers, triples, doubles.....but not all fly balls are created equal, are they?  Does it really matter what kind of out you get?  Unless you are in a situation where you need a double play, then I don't see why it has to be a ground ball....can someone explain.....

by jillsinmo on Jul 7, 2007 8:34 PM EDT reply actions  

it's simple
ground ball=out.  that's all there is to it.
(seriously, though, it's more about getting into the habit of inducing ground balls that keeps a pitcher in that mindset in situations where they have runners on base.  a WHIP of under 1 is pretty good, so for marginal pitchers a ground ball could either help to induce a double play or at least help minimize the damage that a line drive/deep fly ball could to)

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Could not be more wrong
Groundball = 2 in 3 chance of an out
Flyball = slight better than 2 in 3 chance for an out.

Strikeout = 99% chance of an out.

When Izzy had the runner in scoring position a few days ago, what do you think had the better chance of standing him.

3 ground balls OR
Striking out the side like he did?

by DriverZn on Jul 7, 2007 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also
Fly ball: 10% chance of being a home run
Ground ball: 0% of being a home run
Pujols currently < Career godliness.

by joker24 on Jul 7, 2007 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

It doesn't have to be a ground ball
The problem is any time that batter puts the ball in play there is about a 1 in 3 chance its going to go for a hit.  Pitchers have very little control on BAIP (batting average in play).  

Every study I have ever seen shows a strong coorolation between strikeout rate and future success.  If you cannot strike people out the pitcher still has a chance if they can avoid walking anyone.  (See: Maddux)

Pitch to contact is a flawed theory.  In the last two years the only Cards starter with better than league average results was Carpenter.  Guess what, he strikes out a lot of batters and throws strikes.  If they hit it ok, if they don't he punches them out and moves on to the next batter.

Pitch to contact also doesn't decrease walk rates so you have more people on base.  Yes there is a chance for a DP, but at the same time there is a chance for a seeing eye hit.  Basically pitching to contact puts your faith in your fielders and random chance.  

I would challenge anyone to find a dominating pitcher that pitches to contact.  They don't exist.  

The ironic part is the batting average on balls in play is actually HIGHER for ground balls than fly balls. So if you have a runner in scoring position, going for a ground ball is about the worst thing you can do in terms of preventing him from scoring.

Duncan's success has not been from pitching to contact but rather getting pitchers to get their walk rates under control and thus having fewer base runners.  That only works with pitchers that can afford to back off a bit AND had walk issues in the first place.  Interesting, Wells and Wellemeyer both fit that description, Reyes does not.

Its a case of Duncan misunderstand his own success and mistaking result for cause.  Sadly I doubt the old dog can learn a new trick at this point.

by DriverZn on Jul 7, 2007 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Soup was above average in '06
and the entire 2005 staff - Marquis, Soup, Mulder, Morris, Carp - was above average.
Fire LaJocketty, Hire DePodesta!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 7, 2007 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lets check that
Carpenter ERA+ 151
Suppan ERA+ 120
Mulder ERA+ 117
Morris ERA+ 104
Marquis ERA+ 103

Carpenter struck out nearly a batter per inning.  He was not pitching to contact.

So while pitching in front of an exceptional defense we had two pitchers getting league average results and two doing slightly better.  Without multiple gold gloves behind them Suppan and Mulder do not put up those ERAs.  Look at Suppan's numbers with average defenses behind him.  They are, well, average.

So once again you have one pitcher with dominate stuff, able to strike people out vastly outperforming basically four average pitchers.

by DriverZn on Jul 7, 2007 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Carpenter did both
he pitched situationally, got a lot of groundballs, and knew how to reach back and get a strikeout when he desperately needed one.  That's what makes Carp an ace.

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree
Carpenter used his talent to do a great job.  My point is simply its nonsense to try to get pitchers to strike out fewer people by making their pitchers easier to hit.

Carpenter has a great sinking fastball.  He threw stikes with it.  If they hit it he might get a cheap out.  But he didn't back off to make it easier to hit and would happily get a 3 pitch K if the batter didn't make contact.

What I think is stupid it to take a pitcher who's number 1 and 2 pitches are flyball / K type stuff and have him go to the 3rd or 4th best option with runners in base because of the "groundballs are better" theory.

I just want outs without runs.  I could care less how.

by DriverZn on Jul 7, 2007 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Carp throws a lot of sinkers...
and gets groundballs around 53% of the time. He's kind of a hybrid, but he's definitely not trying to strike people out all the time like a Jake Peavy. I don't know if you want to call that pitching to contact or not.

As for the rest of them, you're right. Good defense has to be part of the equation for the philosophy to work. Sure it's better to have five Carps (or five Peavys), but that kind of talent is hard to come by.  

Fire LaJocketty, Hire DePodesta!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 7, 2007 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

And that's part of the logic
save by investing in control pitchers and no-hit, good glove infielders, and then utilize that money in buying stud hitters and perhaps a frontline starter.

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yikes
Dude please don't browse DIPS and then butcher it.

Carpenter DOES pitch to contact.  Early in counts he pounds the zone with a 2-seam.  If they hit it, oh well it's good enough to get an easy ground ball.  His strikeouts are accidental and occur because his stuff is that good to get swing and misses.  Judging those results and saying oh Suppan should go for K's because since Carpenter gets K's is plain idiotic.  Suppan doesn't have that stuff.  Carpenter isn't good/better because he gets strikeouts, he gets strikeouts because he is good.  You have Denkinger-ed correlation/causation.

Pujols currently < Career godliness.

by joker24 on Jul 7, 2007 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do understand the difference
I was not saying you want to take a junkballer and try to make him a strikeout pitcher.  What I am saying is you don't want to take a strikeout guy and make him a junkballer.

You go with the pitchers strengths and not the "groundballs for all" approach.

by DriverZn on Jul 7, 2007 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Believe me
I'm one who think they've screwed Reyes up.  But that only goes so far.  I would almost guarantee if they put a clause that Carpenter got paid for having a 9 k/9, he'd be able to have 10.  His stuff and diverse repertoire is that good.  But he doesn't, and he's better off for it.

Look at the "Duncan" guys who have succeeded and taken to the philosophy.  Their K rate might fall, but so do the BB and HR rates.  Off the top of my head Woody Williams, Carpenter, even Marquis '04/'05, Matt Morris, Simontacchi, Kile, Bottenfield etc.

Is the one sized fits all approach perfect?  Not so much, but I'm not sure the Cardinals have so much success the last decade without Duncan's nobody-into-functional-starter abilities, most of which predicated on the groundball pitch to contact philosophy.

Pujols currently < Career godliness.

by joker24 on Jul 7, 2007 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I looked a few of them up.
Kile,
Slight drop in K/9 but a big drop in BB/9

Suppan
No change in k/9, slight increase in bb/9

Williams
No change in k/9, decrease in bb/9

You might be able to say he got Kile and Williams to throw more stikes, but neither had a real drop in their strikeout rates.  You can argue that Suppan's numbers got worse since his walk rate went up with no increase in K rate.

Stil looking for a "pitch to contact" conversion success story, none in the list above.

by DriverZn on Jul 7, 2007 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is all interesting.....
because  I was just thinking in the simplest of terms:  less hands touching the ball, less chance for an error, so a pop-up, fly ball, strike-out seem to have less chance of an error. I know that a ground ball won't be a homer, but there's also plenty of players that have "warning track" power, so those aren't going to be home runs either, but a bigger risk for double or triple.....

by jillsinmo on Jul 7, 2007 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I feel all warm and fuzzy inside because
so many of you took the time to answer.  My son pitched in a game where he lost 6-2.  Gave up only 3 hits scattered over 7 innings.  There were 6 errors, 4 on ground balls, one fly ball lost in the sun, and a dropped throw on a dropped third strike.  So, with his team, he really tries to avoid pitching to contact, because the fielders behind him are very erratic....

by jillsinmo on Jul 7, 2007 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

For those of you with this on TV
How is Lincecum's velocity. Is he throwing 97, 94..... just wondering?

by ZiggyG on Jul 7, 2007 8:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Velo
Started out 90-94 touching 96 but he's down to 89-91 touching 94 by the 5th now.
Pujols currently < Career godliness.

by joker24 on Jul 7, 2007 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

AP's 38th strikeout....
...on pace for his worst season yet in this regard.

by Ignatius J Reilly on Jul 7, 2007 8:45 PM EDT reply actions  

He is
on pace for his worst season in a LOT of regards.

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

He struck out 93 times...
as a rookie...
Fire LaJocketty, Hire DePodesta!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 7, 2007 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOOP's hit his 6th inning wall
get someone in the bullpen warming up Tony. don't let this game get away.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 8:51 PM EDT reply actions  

After the
depressing sight of Pujols striking out and Speezer getting thrown out by BMolina, here's some good news - the Nats just moved in front of the Brewers 4-2.  Now its 4-3 on a Fielder HR.

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 8:51 PM EDT reply actions  

The Brewers might be the...
only thing standing in the way of the awful spectacle of the Cubs playing in October. Think of it: Marquis leading his team to victory on national television while the announcers laud his feistiness and bulldog mentality...
Fire LaJocketty, Hire DePodesta!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 7, 2007 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stop!
You're making me sick.

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

here comes 752
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 8:52 PM EDT reply actions  

HEY!
where have you been all night?

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

cooking a late dinner
been able to watch most of the game, just not been able to set down with the lap top and drop my knowledge on VEB. good to know i was missed. thanks.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

you're
always missed. (not in a gay way, not that there's anything wrong with that.)

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

HA, I just saw this
all i got to say in reply is,

good luck with allll that.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 8, 2007 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

what happened to Tony not walking Bonds????
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 8:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Go Nationals!
Simontacchi is beating Suppan through 5 innings, it's 4-2 Nats.

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 8:54 PM EDT reply actions  

yea
i saw the score, then decided to post without looking up or checking the score again, sorry about that.  I was just excited to see that Simo was beating Soup.

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

YEAH SKIPPY!!
who knew?

tie ball game. nice.

pile on gents.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 9:00 PM EDT reply actions  

atta boy
i guess THAT's what he's doing on our roster...

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

i'm a little tired of hearing the fans boo
bonds every time he does anything. i hoped fans would be classier, not sure why though

by erik on Jul 7, 2007 9:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, the bum...
he blatantly cheated his way to breaking our hero's record. That is why they boo, right?
Fire LaJocketty, Hire DePodesta!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 7, 2007 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

no
they weren't saying "boo", they were saying "Boo-urns"

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was hoping
the same thing.  But because I think Barry feeds off of all the attention, positive or negative.  If we just ignore him, he might actually notice that and be offended. ("I'm not worthy of their disdain.  What gives?")  

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

People
wanted to know what the club expected from Skippy.  Maybe they were just waiting for that - his first homer this year.  

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 9:03 PM EDT reply actions  

yup
that was me.  Not that I don't appreciate his homer, I was still just wondering if we were planning on making him a regular bench player or what our future plans for him were.  i wasn't really trying to be like "oh, he's so terrible, why's he on our roster?".  I kinda like him, prolly just cuz of his awesome name (and that home run).

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

ya
marty mason.
and now Flores.  (i hope that gives you some relief)

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 9:10 PM EDT reply actions  

sorry
i thought i hit the reply button.  my bad.

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

i guess it's just the fact
the entire world is booing and losing their minds over him, cardinal fans would not. there's just never been more of an overkill then on bonds. cheated or whatever, i could really care less anymore. i blame talk radio. anytime it's a slow day sports wise, it's time to lay into bonds over the air. it's all soooooooooo tired if you ask me. he's gonna break the record, get over it people. we cheered like crazy for big mac, and suddenly now that sammy hits 600 and he's a hero. it's completely hypocritical. oh, great...now fans are doing the waive in a tie game in the 7th...best fans my eye.

by erik on Jul 7, 2007 9:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Agree with you
on all your points except one - I still think Cards fans are among the best in baseball.  

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

maybe they are the best fans
but do you think they'd be doing the waive in boston late in a tie game...well, was a tie game? not saying they're the best fans either...anyway, i'm done...just thinking...

by erik on Jul 7, 2007 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

well...best fans, who cares?
can you get more meaningless. it's not like any of these rankings are official.

by ortic jones on Jul 7, 2007 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

if they are i was
never invited to the award show...sucks too, i have this tux in my closet only collecting dust. maybe i can use it whenever i get nominated for the daytime emmys. not that that is more meaningful

by erik on Jul 7, 2007 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know
what they would be doing in Boston.  But that said, I don't care for the wave in any situation.  I just don't like it.

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

You may not be old enough to have had the....
...pleasure of watching Henry Aaron play ball. Back in my early years, the Milwaukee Braves played 22 games each year against the Birds, 11 of them at Sportsman. In those days the crowds were small and you had a chance to get to know the players.

If you had met the young Henry Aaron, as a youngster yourself, if you had had the firsthand experience of witnessing his dignity, his class and, oh by the way his ball playing ability, you would have an understanding as to the utter travesty of having his record broken by the worthless (fill in the blank) that bonds is---and to have the record broken by cheating, well it is disgraceful. That's as nicely as I can state it.

by Ignatius J Reilly on Jul 7, 2007 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not to mention that
Aaron got a totally different type of negative reaction when he broke the record--death threats and people calling him n__ from the stands.

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

i understand the outrage
i guess i just feel like it's almost like a bash barry bandwagon at this point. if that's your reason, so be it. i guess i think the boo barry thing is like the wave...everyone's doing it, not everyone is sure why they are doing it..er, maybe i'm nuts here. just sharing my thoughts.

by erik on Jul 7, 2007 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I actually kind of agree with you
and was pretty indifferent to the whole thing until he started threatening Aaron.  I doubt that I'd be booing him if I were at Busch tonight.  But I'm still hoping that he tweaks a hammy running to first base and misses the rest of the season, stuck at 751.

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Booing is fun
the game is a natural drama, it needs villains. Since Bonds pretty much embraces his role as the premiere villain in the game, I don't see anything wrong with booing him; doing something idiotic like throwing shit at him, that's totally different.

I like the players that embrace heckling and play back with the fans -- Milton Bradley and Griffey are both pretty funny when it comes to dealing with jerks -- chances are it's nothing personal (although in Bonds' case I really do think he's an asshole), just good ol' fashion ball busting.

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 7, 2007 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well put
More booing, less shit-throwing.

by Don Zero on Jul 7, 2007 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

i could not agree more erik
i'm a Bonds fan, always have been. and i don't care if he or any one else used roids. baseball didn't ban them till a few years ago any way. they wanted bigger hitters to hit longer home runs. and only till the govt got involved did they finally ban them.

the fact that Bond's the only bad guy with roids is very hypocritical. there were probably more pitchers on roids than batters any way. yet clemens get's a free ride. any way, stop booing. it's old&busted.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was painful.
Miles should have gotten the out at first, at the very least.  And Randy continues his trend of allowing inherited runners to score.

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 9:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Flores threw to two righties to get to Bonds
and coughed up runs on each of them.  Or I guess Miles coughed up runs.  Whatever.

Ugh.  This is the shit I laughed at when other teams did it.

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that's the point
Miles' errors kept the Bonds threat potential real enough that Tony kept him in.

by enoscountry on Jul 7, 2007 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can Tony and Ozzie make up
and we can just put Ozzie out there at SS again, now?

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 9:23 PM EDT reply actions  

Ugh. Flores.
Maybe even more of an Ugh.  Miles.
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2007 9:24 PM EDT reply actions  

this is complete garbage...
a trained monkey could field better out there.

by erik on Jul 7, 2007 9:24 PM EDT reply actions  

The monkey probably doesnt even need to be trained
I'd say find a wild baboon in mating season and put him at SS.  Or Brendan Ryan.
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2007 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ryan
before the baboon, please.  But Miles usually does a decent job out there.  

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

i can't see...
another error by miles. what is he doing out there? are these routine?

by ortic jones on Jul 7, 2007 9:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Yes.
That last one was horrific.  They've all been horrific.  

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's sleepwalking out there
Did you see the look in his face?  Maybe we can get Ankiel to play SS.  He'd be more accurate than that.

Good job, tony.  Leaving the lefty in was totally worth that out.

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 9:27 PM EDT reply actions  

TLR really must be trying to get fired
There is no other reason in the world that he would bring flores into that situation.  

and of course, in the postgame interview, it'll be aaron's fault.

Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 7, 2007 9:27 PM EDT reply actions  

another one??????????
what is happening? was that 3 errors by miles for 4 runs? you have to be kidding me!!!!!!

by ortic jones on Jul 7, 2007 9:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Wow
Marco Scutaro made four errors in one game for Oakland last night.  What is Miles trying to do, best him in that department?

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 9:27 PM EDT reply actions  

I hate to be pessimistic
Especially when there are 9 more outs for us before the game is over, but we might be looking at a sweep by the (last-placed in the NL West) Giants straight in the eyes, especially with Zito v. Wellemeyer tomorrow (tell me that isn't the mismatch of the season).
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2007 9:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Hey Tony!
Miles isn't a shortstop and Flores can't get anyone out. .500 has become a pipedream for this team. We flat out suck beyond belief.

by deanj on Jul 7, 2007 9:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Let's see if Albert is still playing
This was a sort of interesting game for a bit.

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 9:34 PM EDT reply actions  

No loss to the offense if he sits.
Does Albert even care at this point? Does anyone care? I need to see some emotion from someone on this team. Throw a bat, throw a helmet, bean someone and start a brawl, anything. Someone has to find this team's heart (balls).

by deanj on Jul 7, 2007 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey Scott and Albert!
You aren't paid 8 figures to slap singles. Swing the fucking bat like you give a shit. Even Skippy has figured that out.

by deanj on Jul 7, 2007 9:35 PM EDT reply actions  

language?
i could have gone without that.

by enoscountry on Jul 7, 2007 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry about the language.
I let my emotions get the best of me.

by deanj on Jul 7, 2007 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is
now 5-3 Nats, in the bottom of the seventh.  And Washington is still batting.  

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 9:36 PM EDT reply actions  

holy smokes!
i just got done with a shower (i went in at 4-3 giants).  How bad were miles' errors?

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 9:37 PM EDT reply actions  

So ,
are you saying that you are not very good at softball?  

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lets just say that I boot a few balls at SS
but then again, most of the time I play it's grad students and a keg at the park

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

The keg was always the most popular player
on my grad school softball teams. A real gamer...God bless that refreshing little guy....

by BTown Birds fan on Jul 7, 2007 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

As Bad
as what went down your shower drain.

by joethejedi on Jul 7, 2007 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can't blame Flores
for that inning.  Even despite the first Miles error, he still shoulda only given up one run.  Coming in w/ 2nd and 3rd, one out and give up only one run isn't that bad.  Blame that snafu on Miles, not Flores.

by CardFaninVA on Jul 7, 2007 9:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Why is Kippy
so good out of the 'pen?  Seriously.  He gets runners on and he doesn't melt down.  Why can't he do that in his starts?

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 9:44 PM EDT reply actions  

I think he's simplified a lot
he's not trying to paint the corners with seven different pitches.  

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok, Dunc.
Let's get some more offense.  

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 9:46 PM EDT reply actions  

nice!
but his hit shouldn't count, since it came against a lefty.

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadi
he can do it, because he is the awesome.

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 9:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Bad move
by Lewis.  He could have had Rolen at second.  Now can Yadi make them pay for it?

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 9:51 PM EDT reply actions  

agreed
I can't really see how you blame that blowup on Flores.  The ball didn't even leave the infield.

by troycard on Jul 7, 2007 9:51 PM EDT reply actions  

Based loaded, no out.
The bottom of the order hasn't given up.

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 9:51 PM EDT reply actions  

C'mon Guys
Kill the Messenger!

by joethejedi on Jul 7, 2007 9:52 PM EDT reply actions  

This won't happen
But wouldn't it make sense to pinch hit Enc here?

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 9:52 PM EDT reply actions  

oh that's awesom
DUNK just laid him out!

there's the fight some one was asking for earlier.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 9:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Shannon and Rooney were saying their catcher
didn't tag him or touch home in time. That run would be really nice now that we're down by one.

by BTown Birds fan on Jul 7, 2007 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think he got the plate
but DUNK just laid him out in case he didn't. DUNK put his forearm right in the catchers grill.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Collisions
rarely have a tag - you just look to see if the ball comes loose. You couldn't pay ME enough to stand there with the Dunc freight train coming down the line. Yeesh that had to sting.

by joethejedi on Jul 7, 2007 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought the catcher always gets the glove in
front of him (when he has time to get set at least a little bit) so the tag is more or less automatic. I'm going by radio, so I don't have any idea how close the throw and Duncan were. It sounds like their catcher did a good job to hold on though, if Duncan hit him that hard.

by BTown Birds fan on Jul 7, 2007 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that's true - I forgot the obvious
fact that the bases were loaded. So was the ball clearly there before him with the catcher on the plate?

Damn, I wish I could watch more of these games. I'm in southern Indiana w/o cable, and the only game I've seen this season was opening night. I need to spend more time at the bar when they're on national TV....

by BTown Birds fan on Jul 7, 2007 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

the ball beat him
but was a high throw that pulled the catcher off the plate.  I don't think he ever touched it.
Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 7, 2007 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

good time
for Kennedy to get a tally in the HR column!!

by troycard on Jul 7, 2007 9:53 PM EDT reply actions  

as bad as AK is this season
that's a homer for him.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or for that matter,
why not enc or ryan for kennedy?

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 9:55 PM EDT reply actions  

LUD not a DUD there!
almost tied it up. sweet.

the Cards should be up what now? 6-3?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 9:56 PM EDT reply actions  

No kidding - I'd hate to see a second
consecutive loss we should have won by 2 or 3 except for errors....

by BTown Birds fan on Jul 7, 2007 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

get yadi
some oxygen...he was blowing pretty hard after having to move up 3 bases.

by troycard on Jul 7, 2007 9:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Well
Last night they played hard in the ninth (play on words).  Tonight can they do it again?

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 10:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Ok
Miles made a nice play there.  

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 10:02 PM EDT reply actions  

wow
consecutive 3 error nights is this High school?
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Jul 7, 2007 10:02 PM EDT reply actions  

STOP TALKING ABOUT MARK BUEHRLE
i'm serious. until he's wearing the Birds on the Bats I don't want to hear another word about him. it's gotten freakin ridiculous.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 10:03 PM EDT reply actions  

that pitch has been a strike all night long
why's it not a strike now blue?
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 10:06 PM EDT reply actions  

our midget SS cost us another error
not to beat the guy while he's down, but if Ryan's in there, he can reach that. YADDA did throw it wide though, but i think that should have been caught.

why is KIPP still in there? they can't afford to let any more runs score?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 10:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Suggested Reading
For Miles and Kennedy:

Catch the Ball
and additionally for Miles:
How to Not Throw Like a Girl

apologies to all the great girl ballplayers out there...

by joethejedi on Jul 7, 2007 10:10 PM EDT reply actions  

What else can this team do wrong?
Perhaps we can have two outfielders collide on a deep fly ball?

A ball bounce off of an outfielder's head for a home run?

Home run on an intentional ball?

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 10:10 PM EDT reply actions  

personally
i would love to see duncan running after a fly ball and go crashing through the wall.  I know it's a pretty thick wall, but I think he can do it.

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

SO we could use
some bottom of the 9th magic little man.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 10:14 PM EDT reply actions  

20 games albert
20 effin games. LETS DO IT!!!!!!!!

by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 7, 2007 10:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Pujols
End your homerless streak NOW
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2007 10:15 PM EDT reply actions  

i was at that game!
for Pujols' last walk off home run. it was awesome.  i think it was the 13th innning or so.

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 10:16 PM EDT reply actions  

and Albert get's himself out once again
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 10:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Fuck.
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2007 10:17 PM EDT reply actions  

game. set. match.
someone one bernie's pressbox yesterday suggested trading AP to the yankees.  not sounding bad right now.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 7, 2007 10:17 PM EDT reply actions  

for who?
wang, cabrerra, and cano?

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

A-Rod, cash considerations and
their top minor league prospect.
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2007 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

unless they throw in Jeter
Godzilla, Giambi, AND their top 3 pitching prospects and pay half their contracts, i'm against it.

you never trade Albert. NEVER

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

No I agree
I'm just pointing out what would be a retarded trade proposal.
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2007 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

two very frustrating losses
big errors followed by comebacks that just fall short. the giants are a last placed team and we are 0-4 against them!

by willievinceterry on Jul 7, 2007 10:18 PM EDT reply actions  

hey guys
THE GAME ISN'T OVER YET.

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 10:19 PM EDT reply actions  

d*mn straight
Let's go, Dunc.  You're still trying.

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

now it is.
thanks a lot miles and taguchi. turkeys.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 7, 2007 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

What did Taguchi do?
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2007 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

remember last night?
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do remember last night
But this is tonight.
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2007 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously
What can you blame So for tonight?  He got a hit in his only AB.  He didn't GIDP.  Last night, yes, blame So.  But tonight?

by cardsgirl95 on Jul 7, 2007 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

nice walk DUNK
come on Scotty. just get a hit.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 10:19 PM EDT reply actions  

C'mon Scotty
Just find a gap.
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2007 10:20 PM EDT reply actions  

wow
i think DunnCan is trying to injure their entire team.

by Molina4MVP on Jul 7, 2007 10:20 PM EDT reply actions  

good grief
what happened to the Cards 3-6 power?

yet another very disapointing loss.

why to make a push for .500 by the break guys.

UGH.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 10:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Sloppy, horrible game.
I'm glad I didn't hear Shannon react to that.  Wouldn've been like hearing my grandpa get punched.

by Valatan on Jul 7, 2007 10:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Pujols doesn't suck
but this team kinds does. Two steps forward, two steps back. The Giants were this way last year. Very, very disappointing to lose these two games the way they did after the D-Backs series, but I think after weeks of over-their-heads play by Miles and Taguchi, we are seeing them come back down to Earth with a big, big thud. They were a big part of why the team was able to stay afloat for a while there, but the last two nights, they've been a big part of why they lost. Arrrghh.

by willievinceterry on Jul 7, 2007 10:26 PM EDT reply actions  

I realize that Miles and Gooch have been
batting well "above their heads" but I think that a 3-run error on So's part and 3 errors in one inning by Miles doesn't constitute "coming back to earth," because that's not typical So and Miles.  Just two shitty nights in a row for these two guys, but they'll be back.
"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 7, 2007 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think that's what makes it worse
Miles hasn't been bad at all at SS. SO's D has fallen off big time the past two years. latley they have not been bad. but the past two nights, their bad play has cost the Cards two wins.

it's aggravating and it sucks. if ECK and Jimmy are healthy and playing, we win both games.  

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 7, 2007 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or we could play th young shortstop
You know, the one thats good defensivly and outhitting Miles OPS .724 vs .672

But TLR loves his vets

by DriverZn on Jul 7, 2007 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pujols is part of the problem, too...
Miles is a mediocre (and short) 2B playing out of position, Taguchi has always had trouble picking up balls in the new Busch (for some reason, either that or he needs glasses, which is quite possible given he's what 38-39). Honestly, you expect them to screw up every so often. Because that's how they've played in the past.

Pujols, on the other hand, has gone from being the best player in baseball, to Sean Casey. While he can't hit a home run in every clutch situation, he hasn't been producing the last month or so, and it has hurt the team as much as anything else. His at bat in that GIDP in the 9th wasn't exactly great. He seems like he spends more effort greeting the other team's runners at first than batting these days.

The real problem is that the team basically has $45 million locked up into 4 guys who basically aren't doing anything right now, either because they are hurt (Carp, Edmonds), or simply playing much worse than their career averages (Rolen, Pujols). And it's up to the rest of the guys, who simply aren't that great to begin with, to carry the slack. And they aren't up to the task.

Tony's not helping with his weird insistence on using Flores every time the game is on the line, either.

by DiscoJer on Jul 7, 2007 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

to defend the indefensible
the re-plays I saw of Miles' three E's...
Pooh should have scooped the last one for him; the middle grounder was hard hit and he made a bad mental choice to play it backhand.
The first E was of course a screw-up.

by CurtFlood on Jul 7, 2007 10:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh no
I wasn't here for the game, but it sounded baaaaaaad.
It reminds me of something I read the other day on another Cardinals site..
"Brendon Ryan and Jarrett Hoffpauir.. two weapons in our fight against letting Aaron Miles play"

by KeepOnRolen on Jul 8, 2007 12:15 AM EDT reply actions  

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