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"the long-term well-being of the club" -- Q+A with jeff luhnow

so now they're buyers again?

seems to me this is the type of decision-making that got the cardinals into trouble in the first place. before the 2006 playoffs began, the cardinals were prepared to make some major off-season changes, but they changed their minds after a hot and somewhat lucky october. the front office deluded itself that 16 postseason games were a more accurate gauge of the team's ability than four months of poor play; the plans to retool were shelved, and the cardinals decided instead to reassemble the october team. another four months of poor play have ensued. . . . . and now the team is shelving plans to retool because of three games??? i guess the thinking is that if they can just shrug off one or two 5-0 deficits every week from now through the end of the year, the division is there for the taking.

bah.

Update [2007-7-31 12:21:58 by lboros]: the cardinals picked up joel piniero for a ptbnl. this guy's career era away from capacious safeco field is above 5.00. even in his good years (2002-03) his era was largely a ballpark illusion --- more than 1.50 lower at home than on the road in both seasons. i don't know why the cardinals even bother with players like this . . . . [end update]

my post today is a post-draft Q+A with jeff luhnow. not your typical deadline-day fodder, i'll grant, but the Qs have been pending for a few days and i just rec'd the As yesterday --- want to get them out there while they're still fresh. jeff wrote the answers from jupiter fla after watching pete kozma get his first professional hit. a couple of the questions are past expiration --- e.g., i wrote them before the news of tyler henley's signing had broken, and before derrick goold's profile on pj walters --- but most of them still apply. my thanks to jeff, as always, for taking the time to answer questions.

The draft pick who's getting the most attention right now is somebody no one ever heard of before, Arnoldi Cruz --- the 26th-round pick. Where'd you find this guy?
Credit goes to Charlie Gonzalez (our scout in South Florida). He was in the neighborhood of our complex at Palm Beach Community College. I first saw Cruz at a workout in our complex in Jupiter in April. We were working him out as a catcher, alongside Danny Rams, Yasmani Grandal, and Daniel Mantra (three of the top prep catchers in this year's draft). He later came to our pre-draft workout in late May and we worked him out as a third baseman and as a catcher. We had our scouting staff and player development staff on hand both times. His bat was impressive, as was his defensive skill and his attitude. I'd be remiss if I didn't give an assist to Anup Sinha, our college specialist who lives in Jupiter and pounded the table for us to draft Cruz as one of his "gut feel" players. When a prospect gets a "gut feel" tag from two of the scouts, there is usually something special there. I think Arnoldi now has become a "gut feel" player for many of our fans who follow the minor leagues. [LB: the quad city times had a feature about cruz recently, in case you missed it.]

In addition to Cruz, a few other 2007 draftees who've moved up quickly are Steve Hill, the 13th-rounder out of Stephen F. Austin; Antonio DeJesus, the 16th-round pick out of Kentucky; and Nick Derba, the 30th-rounder from Manhattan College. They're all at Quad Cities and are off to good starts there. Can you add a little backstory on them --- which scouts spotted them, and what did the organization see in those players?
Steve Hill played two years in junior college prior to settling in at Steven F Austin. Both Joe Almaraz and Mike Elias saw him and wanted to draft him, and Sig Mejdal was in full support due to Hill's performance. He plays first, outfield and can catch. His best tool is his bat and his power. He is off to a great start and I hope keeps it up. So far, we are encouraged by what we have seen behind the plate and will give him ample opportunity to get better at that position.

Antonio DeJesus was the center fielder at Kentucky ... Brian Hopkins advocated for him prior to and during the draft, and Joe Rigoli concurred that he was worth drafting and that he is a Cardinal type of player. He has speed, plays the outfield well, and takes his walks. . . . so he has a good chance to be a leadoff hitter. When we became thin at Quad Cities, we decided to promote him despite his low average since he had been taking his walks and was solid defensively. Since the promotion his bat has come alive and the feedback from Mitch (Keith Mitchell) has been very encouraging.

Nick Derba is Kobe Perez's guy. He came to our workout in New Jersey and impressed all of us with his catching skill, his ability with the bat, and his attitude. He has been one of the many pleasant surprises in this draft and as a catcher, he has become a prospect.

Another rapid riser this season has been Jose Garcia, the second baseman out of Venezuela. If I'm not mistaken he started the year at extended spring training and has since moved through Johnson City and Batavia; he's now at Quad Cities as a 19-year-old. What's the story on this kid, and what does his trajectory look like moving forward? Is he likely to be at Palm Beach next season?
Jose was signed last year prior the VSL season. He played in the VSL for the summer and then blossomed during the Liga Paralela in the fall. He was named the MVP of our team there as he did everything --- played middle infield very well, hit and ran well. We suspected he would be able to handle Johnson City instead of the GCL coming into Spring Training. He can play both SS and 2B and has both the tools and the makeup to be a big league player. If he finished the year at Quad Cities in the same manner he has played all year, and has a strong winter season, he will get a chance to play in Palm Beach next year. Javier Meza and Wilmer Becerra deserve credit for bringing Jose into our organization.

Jose Martinez seems to have improved his hitting since being promoted to Springfield --- judging by his stat line, he's showing more power and better plate discipline than he did in single A. Seems counterintuitive --- what's your explanation for it? Is it because he moved from a pitcher's park in PB to a hitter's park in Springfield? Has he made a significant adjustment at the plate? Is it a matter of maturity? Or is it just one of those things --- the kid was underachieving early, and now he's on a hot streak?
I suspected when we moved Jose up that he would return to his form from last year. He flashed it here (in Palm Beach, where I am currently) but wasn't consistent. This is a tough league for hitters as the weather is hot, the crowds are small, and the ballparks are huge. On top of that, the pitching tends to be very good. The Texas League is more of a hitter's league. The biggest contribution Martinez has made this year is he demonstrated his ability to play shortstop at a high level. Because he is not as fast as many shortstops, many people believed that he would not be able to play that position at a high level. Jose has exceptional hands, a good arm, and impressive instincts, so he makes up for his lack of speed. He has always been a productive offensive player, and despite his struggles at Palm Beach this year, I expect him to be a run producer in the future.

I have never read a scouting report on PJ Walters --- what type of pitcher is he? What does he throw, and how is he achieving such outstanding results this year? What part of his game needs the most improvement?
PJ Walters was one of the top three pitchers in college baseball going into the draft last year, behind [Tim] Lincecum and [Brad] Lincoln, according to our performance metric. He didn't have the "stuff" that those two had, which is why he was available after the tenth round. He has the full array of pitches, but more importantly he mixes them up well and he has command of all of them. His best tool is his "pitchability," and that is why he is the first starter from the 2006 draft class to make it to AA. [in case you missed it, derrick goold profiled pj walters last week.]

Ditto Tyler Herron --- what are his best pitches? What does he need to work on to get ready for the next level?
Not much. Herron has the entire package and just needs to get innings and get ready for the next level, which will more than likely be coming out of Spring Training next year. We knew he had this in him, which is why he was a first rounder (compensation pick) for us in 2005. Tyler's fastball is at least average and he has a curveball and changeup that both project to be at least average. The loss in velocity coming out of the draft was probably the best thing that could have happened to him, as he learned how to pitch without blowing people away with the fastball, and now he has matured. The sky is the limit for Tyler. On top of his golden arm, he has exceptional makeup and is a fierce competitor.

Walters, Eddie Degerman, and Brad Furnish have all shifted from the 8-man rotation at Quad Cities to the 5-man at Palm Beach. How has that transition gone for them? Any problems w/ endurance, preparation, or other issues?
I believe the piggyback system helped all of them get innings and get into their groove. None of them has had any arm problems this year, and they have all done well. By the time we switched them over to the 5-man rotation, they were ready. I can't guarantee it, but there is a chance we will start Quad Cities with an 8-man rotation next year and transition back to a 5-man after the draft again. That seemed to work well.

Some of the "tools" guys in the system are really struggling --- Edwards, Pham, and Jones, to name three. Out of that trio, which do you think has the best chance to put it all together?
I've seen all of them just recently. To be honest, I think all three have a chance to put it together. Edwards can cream the ball, as I saw him do in Johnson City last week. He also has played very well in right field, even with the difficult outfield in Johnson City, and his arm is well respected. Tommy smoked a home run for me in Batavia and he has nights where you watch him and you know he is going to play in the big leagues. Jones is one of the most, if not the most, gifted athletes we have in our system. His power and speed combination are hard to match. Yes, they have all three struggled some this year, but consistency is difficult to achieve with the younger players, and I believe it's just a matter of time. Will they all three make it? Who knows? Could they all three make it? Absolutely.

Likewise, a few of the high draft picks from this year's draft are having a rough adjustment to professional ball --- I'm thinking here of Descalso, Eager, and Marmol. It's early, but are you concerned? What specific skills are the coaches working with those players on?
No, I'm not concerned. All three of those guys can play baseball and should be fine. Our staff is working hard to ease their transition from college to pro ball. We all have to remember that after a full college season, it's tough to go out to pro ball and start playing a different game, with the best players in the world, and have immediate success. I saw Eager pitch a fantastic game when I was at Batavia, but he has not been consistent. [LB: he has a nice little run going now --- 2 er in his last 11.2 innings.] Descalso and Marmol both have the tools to play in the big leagues, and they will eventually hit better than how they started. It's very hard to judge players their first short season. I prefer to wait until after their first full season, and then you have a better feel. Look at Allen Craig last year. I suspected he was a much better hitter than what he showed, and sure enough he proved that this year. [LB: per his game log at minor league splits, craig hit just .259 / .311 / .358 in his first month of pro ball last year, with 1 home run. this season he's at .319 / .369 / .541 in the florida state league and is 2d in the loop in homers (17) despite missing 3 weeks on the dl. he returned to the lineup last night, went 1 for 4 with a double and an rbi.]

A few important draft picks remain unsigned --- Kyle Russell, Paul Henley, Mike Stutes, Adam Reifer, and Brett Zawacki. By all indications, Russell is returning to Texas . What should Cardinal fans anticipate with regard to the other four?
Adam Reifer is signed and has been for a while, he just hasn't pitched because he is here in Jupiter on rehab. Tyler Henley is signed too and should be in the Batavia games very soon. We are in discussions with the other three players and everything will become clear prior to the signing deadline of August 15th. [LB: news of the Henley signing first reported and confirmed a few days ago at Future Redbirds.]

Re the signing of picks: in the wake of this year's draft, there has been a fair amount of grumbling that the Cardinals are unwilling to spend what it takes for premium talent. A lot of fans were very frustrated that the team didn't go after Rick Porcello, for example; ditto the likely failure to sign Russell. The Cardinal organization has been signaling, in word and deed, that it's going to funnel fewer resources into the big-league free-agent market and more into player development --- a lot of fans recognize that as a wise philosophy, and they're excited about it. But for some, excitement turns to frustration when guys like Porcello and Russell are there for the taking, and the organization doesn't make the dollars available. Fans begin to think the real commitment isn't to player development, but rather to cost-cutting. What response would you make to those fans? Can you describe a type of player (or a scenario) that would motivate the Cardinals to pay a premium?
That is nonsense, but I can understand how some fans might come up with that idea. Any player that we think is worth more than we have to pay to get them is a player we go after, regardless of cost. Sometimes we go after players that may be worth slightly less than what they cost, but there are other very good reasons to get them (e.g., the alternative is far less attractive and you need to sign someone!). The organization does not have a desire or a strategy to cut costs . . . . but we do have a desire to invest wisely. Fans are always going to complain when we don't sign big-money players, but they end up complaining more if we get stuck with a big contract that isn't working out. We rarely get credit for the guys we didn't sign that ended up not being worth the cost . . . and I'm sure you know the long list of these players. No organization is perfect in this regard, but we certainly put as much effort as anybody into figuring it out and making the best choices for the long-term well-being of the club.

Does one player's performance ever affect the negotiations with another player? Just to take one example: would the Cardinals be more aggressive about signing centerfielder Paul Henley if fellow 2007 draftees (and CFers) Antonio Dejesus and Beau Riportella weren't off to such good starts in the low minors?
NA, as Henley is signed. You can never have enough good premium position players.

How did you like the new draft format introduced this year? Were the intensified coverage and the new time intervals between picks 100 percent good, 100 percent bad, or a mixed bag? Seems like the 2d day of the draft was absolutely brutal ---- nearly 50 rounds of selections, highly time-compressed. Having done it this way once, will you make any adjustments heading into next season?
It wasn't that different, and we were prepared. I loved the 2nd day, because I knew we were getting some great players late in the draft (which we did!). We will be prepared and ready next year, just like we were this year. Our scouts have already been very busy this summer getting ready for next year's draft, as have I. Next year's crop of players is looking very good at this point.

To get back to individual players: Where do things stand with Cody Haerther? When do you expect him back in the Springfield lineup, and when he does return who will he displace in the outfield? He has been at double A since mid-2005 --- two and a half years by the end of this season. Despite his limited playing time this year, will he have a chance to move to triple A next year (much as Brendan Ryan did this year after an abbreviated 2006)? Or does he still have work to do to master the double A level?
Cody is healthy now and will be playing at Springfield for the rest of the year, more than likely. He will get every chance to play in Memphis next year, but has to show us in Spring Training that he is ready. I'm optimistic he will finish the year well and get in good shape for next year. [LB: haerther spent the past week rehabbing with the GCL cardinals and has rejoined the springfield team; he's expect to start tonight vs arkansas.]

The outfield continues to be crowded at the top of the farm system. At least one or two of the incumbents (Stavinoha Mather and Ankiel) --- if not all three --- will probably be back at triple A next year. Among the double A corps, presumably Rasmus is envisioned as beginning next season at Memphis, and possibly Haerther; Mark Shorey is building a case for promotion; Sean Danielson's shelf life is nearing expiration; John Rodriguez will be holding over. . . . . at some point there's gonna have to be a trade, isn't there?
We do have many interesting outfielders, and I'd rather have too many than not enough. If that continues to be an issue during spring training next year, I'm sure we would consider making a move but I'm not worried about it at this point.

Blake Hawksworth is really struggling at Memphis; is he healthy?
Blake is healthy. He has been inconsistent, but it is his first year at AAA and he is still very young and not very experienced. He has nights when he shows us why he is there and why he will go further. AAA is a tough league for first time players, and Hawksworth was at Palm Beach to start the year in 2006. He just needs more time and for all of us to be patient.

Final question: I had a chance to talk to Adam Ottavino earlier this year, and he expressed some frustration with the "pitch-to-contact" philosophy --- he feels he's being pushed to adopt it too abruptly, rather than being allowed to develop it at a more gradual pace. He made similar remarks to Derrick Goold of the Post-Dispatch. Anthony Reyes has been grappling with this issue since at least the beginning of last season, as has been well publicized. Earlier this month, Dyar Miller said in a radio interview that the Cardinals are "a 2-seam, groundball organization." As long as that is the organization's emphasis, does it make sense to draft guys who favor the 4-seam, as Reyes and Ottavino do? If there is a change at the top of the organization --- ie, if Dave Duncan leaves after this year --- will the 2-seamer continue to be a preferred pitch throughout the farm system?
Adam is having a great year and has become more effective as the year has progressed. Pitching is a lot more complicated than the 2-seam, 4-seam debate and even the groundball vs. flyball debate. Yes we like groundball pitchers, but we aren't alone in that preference. Yes we like fastballs that move naturally, but we are not alone in that desire either. Neither of those philosophies needs to change or will change.

* * * * * * * * * *

again, my thanks to jeff. if anybody has a follow-up question, post it here and i'll pass it along. on a side note: i had a chance to meet a staffer from luhnow's wing of the operation, michael girsch, at the SABR convention in st louis last week. nice guy, and a regular reader of VEB and other card-centric blogs, chat rooms, &c. his work duties include surfing the internet in search of nuggets of information that might be useful. (ie, his job is to do what the rest of us are doing while avoiding our jobs; lucky bastard.) i told him i appreciated the fact that there are people in the front office who take fan ideas/input seriously.

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Great stuff
as always, Larry.  

The list of reasons why I come to this site continues to grow.  

I appreciate the tough questions that you ask and I am impressed by how Luhnow answers these questions, knowing they're coming from such a rabid faction of the fan base.

by silent_bob on Jul 31, 2007 9:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Does anyone else
feel bad because they were (sort of) rooting for the Brewers on Sunday so the Cardinals wouldn't shelf their plans to retool for '08?

My plea to Walt:

Please trade Juan NOW!  

It also sounds that Flores could bring us something significant in return.  TJ is almost back; we have Cate.  Dump Randy.  Trade Percival to a contender.

Pretty please?

by silent_bob on Jul 31, 2007 9:53 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It sounds like they would rather keep Flo
and dump Cate.  I'd prefer the opposite.  

by nycardfan on Jul 31, 2007 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Second.
Flores might be worth a little; lefty relief options, we got.  Move him.  
Do you hear that? That's the sound of my dreams being crushed.

by the red baron on Jul 31, 2007 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But do you think
Cate might bring a greater return than Flores? Especially after he lets inhereted runners score like every game he pitches?

If Cate is seen a younger (ie more potential, cheaper), and he's able to bring in greater talent, then I'm okay with it. But if the level of talent isn't that much greater, than lets dump Flores' salary and be done with it.

How do you think GMs will be thinking? Will they want MLB experience from a mediocre/slightly struggling lefty reliever, or potential in a younger lefty reliever?

.500 here we come...

by effin fisk on Jul 31, 2007 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

addition by subtraction
moving Flores might be worth 1-2 games in the standings, just by not having him pitch for us.
Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 31, 2007 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This morning's P-D seemed
to indicate that Flores has more value than Cate, Springer, or Percival (I guess because he's a lefty specialist with major league experience--even though he seems to have forgotten how to get lefties out).

by nycardfan on Jul 31, 2007 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I felt the exact same way!
Great games that were hard played, but winning 3 of 4 delays the inevitable re structure at least another year.  
I thought after the wins that it would turn from sellers to staying put.  I am truly suprised it went from sellers to buyers.  
I believe lboros once compared the Cardinals last few years to racking up credit card debt.  Well, instead of paying down the balance (ie, stop selling the farm kids) we are just adding more debt by trying to buy.  My only hope is that we don't do anything and if it is, it is small that does not give up a decent prospect.
"Baseball is the only field of endeavor where a man can succeed three times out of ten and be considered a good performer." - Ted Williams

by WiscCard on Jul 31, 2007 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really interesting interview, LB
did Luhnow seem a little "snarkier" than before or is it just me?  I wonder if there's not some organizational frustration w/ the fan complaints -- re: Russell and Porcello and 2 seam vs. 4 seam.  They're not at all used to it, due to the long run of success and maybe there's a general perception in the organization that the past success and a World Series title should bring a free ride for at least a year.  

I don't really expect the Cards to do anything of substance before the trade deadline -- in one way that's good and in another bad.  They absolutely cannot give away any young player of consequence in exchange for a 1 or 2 win (above what we already have) pitcher.  I doubt there is a 2 win pitcher that is really gettable anyway.  OTOH, if there's a team willing to take Juan off the Cards' hands, they MUST take advantage of it.  The extra $6 M could come in very handy this offseason, besides giving younger players the opportunity to play.  I don't care how many we're back in the loss column -- keeping Juan doesn't add much in terms of this team's ability to stay in the race.

by chuckb on Jul 31, 2007 10:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He at least seemed to be making it clear that
the preference for ground balls and fast balls with natural movement is held by people up and down the organization.  So the whole emphasis on Duncan and TLR may be misplaced in this debate.  Perhaps this simply will be Carndinal baseball for years to come no matter who is in charge.    

by nycardfan on Jul 31, 2007 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think that's right
and it seems that, if Tony and Dunc were to leave, that philosophy would probably remain.  Maybe it shouldn't, but it does seem to lend more credence to it.  It's possible that Luhnow's just repeating the company line, though.

by chuckb on Jul 31, 2007 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Front of rotation guys, the guys who shut down the
other teams might throw a sinker, but it is in no way their primary pitch.....there really are some pitchers who just can't get the ball to sink, just as there are some who can't get it to rise. I absolutely understand why you want that pitch thrown....but I'll never understand why you would demand it.  There are other ways to get batters out, and talented pitchers will figure out how to get a ground ball when they need it. I hate the idea that they would pass on someone for the lack of that pitch.  They should just go ahead and package Ottovino and Reyes for a sinkerballer and be done with it.

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exceptions to the rule...
Brandon Webb and Derek Lowe. Both have survived as Aces (or a solid #2 in Lowe's case) thanks to heavy sinkers. The same goes for Fausto Carmona who is showing the potential to be an Ace.
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the fact that they liked
Welleymeyer indicates that they may not close the door on pitchers who are prone to fly balls (and when they make mistakes homeruns).  But I think they prefer a mistake end up being a groundball rather than a flyball.  And I also think they would want someone like Welleymeyer or Reyes to learn how to throw down in the zone.  I thought Reyes did a good job of mixing up his pitches, including many that stayed down in the zone.  No matter what pitch he used, his ability to show he could do that and could possibly improve on that probably weighed heavily in their decision to put him back in the rotation (which I'm glad they did).

by nycardfan on Jul 31, 2007 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They
have also made real pushes for AJ Burnett, Randy Wolfe, and Jason Schmidt over the last two years.

Strikeouts are great; they are the pinnacle of talent for a pitcher. When you break down pitching success to the most basic principle, it is making a batter miss your pitch. The more talented pitchers can do this at a greater frequency. However, less talented pitchers sometimes need to pitch to contact -- you can't just say "Hey Brad Thompson, Jeff Suppan, etc, go strike out 12 guys." The less talented (read: less expensive) guys have to utilize their defense to get greater results from their stuff. The more talented guys (Carp, Z, Johan, etc) don't have to. That has been the principle of the now seemingly hated "LaDunc" philosophy -- getting the most out of the least.

Obviously, this doesn't work for everyone, some are naturally fly ball tendency pitchers -- LaDunc's insane inability to adapt to Reyes' style is infuriating -- but to think that the Cards org doesn't value k's seems absurd.

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 31, 2007 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carpenter
has a first-class sinker.  I'm not sure what you would characterize as his "front-line pitch" -- he throws a great 4 seamer, curve, sinker and cutter.  Which is his best?  I don't know but his sinker's a damned good pitch that he uses to great effect.

by chuckb on Jul 31, 2007 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know that.......but how many
pitchers are there of Carpenter's ability to choose from?  I never said anything about strike outs--I don't believe in pitching JUST to get one.  But it's a real plus if you are ABLE to do that in a key situation.  I think Carpenter can use any one of his pitches as his out pitch.  I have nothing against the sinker--everyone should learn it if they can.  I don't think they should be banished from the organization if they can't....and you will miss out on some good talent if you insist they MUST throw the pitch, some just can't get the ball to sink.

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

never would have expected you to say this...
(sarcasm). NO pitchers can get the ball to rise. it's against the laws of physics. i think what luhnow said is good for people to try to internalize, namely, that pitching is a lot more complicated than the 2-seam, 4-seam debate and that the groundball/flyball dichotomy is overly simplistic. la russa's postgame comments saturday night echoed this point. these people know more about pitching than any of us, i hate to say. we have gameday, espn and maybe fsn. they do it for a living.

i'd love to see people give this a rest for just a little while. even a pitcher who likes to throw up in the zone can't throw it there ALL the time. no one has a vendetta against reyes. as he pitches reliably better, that will cease to be an issue.

by willievinceterry on Jul 31, 2007 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

willievinceterry.....I knew you'd be lurking !
I know they don't really rise-but they do appear to rise.....Carlos Zambrano throws a pitch like I'm talking about.....pitching is a lot more complicated than that, yep.  But all pitchers must use their best pitch, whatever it is, to work everything else off of it.  You have a nice day...

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It doesn't
rise, it just doesn't drop as much. Throw a 4-seam fastball with enough velocity up in the zone, it doesn't drop as much as your brain expects it to, giving it the illusion that it rises.

by Jhusk on Jul 31, 2007 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

my last on the "philsophy"
I have a feeling if I read any further into this thread the redundency will repeat thats occurred over 40-50 previous threads in regard to the Cards "pitching philosphy", so I'll stop here and read no further because it will be more of the same about Reyes rather than "the philosophy"

What I will say: I think that if Reyes was winning it wouldnt matter what pitches he threw, if he was 12-4, we're not even having this conversation....period...and he IS the focal point of this whole pitch to contact theme. He is the "poster boy."

He's not 12-4 obviously, he folds with runners on base, he gets wild and cant relocate the zone until mucho damage is done, he gives up runs in the early innings and buries the team, he MIGHT be a head case (no one really knows the answer there) and in spite of his physical talents, he would'nt be the first pitcher with "great potential" to fail in MLB. Therell be 20 or 30 of them this year alone....

I think Larussa and Duncan would LOVE to see him suceed and dont know how to say "he sucks 90% of the time and we dont know why?!" But they CAN talk about what direction they want him to go (they have been around about 30 years longer than Anthony).

In closing, EVERY TEAM in baseball is looking for groundout sinker ball pitchers, up and down and all around. They have nothing against strike-outs....hey, they KNOW winning pitchers are winning pitchers. I dont think Larussa or Duncan are excluding, mistreating, abandoning etc ANY arm that can win games.

Also dont think the organization is responsible for the failure of 2 seamers, 4 seamers, sinkers, knuckleballers, spitballers, or Black and Decker ball scuffers because they want pitchers to go down in the zone. If they get strikeouts down there, its ever the better. But very few pitchers are gonna strike out many MLB hitters UP in the zone. I agree with Laduncettyluhnow or whatever the pet phrase is these days.

I think a lack of pitching without owning part of the plate is a much bigger ptob;em for the Cards staff. Aggressiveness is definitely lacking...ie: the kind Carp and too many to mention have had. That does need to be addressed, there is NO fear going up against most of our staff.

Anthony Reyes....the future of the Cards starting rotation!

by cardschinmusic on Jul 31, 2007 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not just
people up and down the organization...people up and down all of baseball.  

My contention is that EVERYONE, including LaDuncan, understands the value of the strikeout.  Their ideal pitcher is someone like Carpenter, who keeps the ball down, yet strikes out 7-8 per game.  How else can you explain the professed desire for Kip Wells before the season. The guy throws a sinker but also a 4-seamer with movement.  How were they to know that he had nothing between the ears?

by silent_bob on Jul 31, 2007 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And how many Carpenter's are
there to go around?  That's the ideal pitcher, but you got to work with what you got......you get too picky and you might end up with no one on your staff.....

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Wainwright could do that
and I also think Wells could do it if he could get completely straightened out.  Maybe PJ Walters is another one on the horizon.  Obvioysly, Carpenter stands in a class alone (at least right now).  But a number of people available to us may follow in his footsteps.

by nycardfan on Jul 31, 2007 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wainwright's a very good example
he's certainly got the ability to strike people out and is developing his sinker.  He'll probably never get to the level Carpenter was 2 years ago, but he's going to be a good one -- and a pitcher who can get the strikeout or the DP.

by chuckb on Jul 31, 2007 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And that's what he should do. If
he can throw the sinker for a stike it's great for his development as a more complete pitcher.  Now if he can't throw it consistenly for a strike should they ignore everything he CAN do?  No-they help him master his best pitch, and keep working on something else.  

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carpenter was junk when the cards signed him
there were all indications that his career was over.  The organization scouted him the exact same way that they scouted a bunch of the other guys who we deride--a guy who throws hard, has a good curveball, and can get a grounder.  Wells and Ponson matched this profile, too.  Sometimes you catch the lightning in a bottle, and sometime you just have the bottle.  The Cardinals recent run is largely based upon these medium to low risk-high reward moves.  

by Valatan on Jul 31, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's a good point and since we aren't
a large market team, we should be a little more grateful for the times that they have been able to take people who are undervalued and turn them into solid to very good players.

One more thing.  Since I live in NY, I get tired of hearing endlessly about big money deals and what they will do for you.  Lots of those deals don't pan out, this year being a great example.  I think it is more fun to take someone who people don't expect much from and see them make a good run.  You have to work to make that talent come out and the fact that they can win against the odds is more gratifying (at least for me).

It's like the last two games.  I enjoyed coming from behind rather than winning without much battle because it showed that the team has fight and determination even when most people have written them off.

My only concern is that I don't like pushing young pitchers out of the way who were also showing a lot of fight, grit, and determination.

by nycardfan on Jul 31, 2007 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well
I wouldn't describe Carp as a consistent 7-8k per game player. I think of it this way:

for most teams the idea starting pitcher is someone with the stuff to consistently get outs and go long in games. Someone who can get outs with out k's, but has the stuff to rear back and get a k in a tough situation.

I think this is why the team goes after the 4 seamer types. They figure that if they can get them to accept the 2 seam fastball and consistently roll through innings using fewer pitches, the starter still has the  4 seamer to mix in when times get tough and they need to get the k.

Do i know if that is the right philosophy? Don't know. Just a guess, but people who throw 4 seamer might self-select a bit and therefore the Cards like the mental makeup and tenacity of those who throw the 4 seamer as well, figuring that they can adapt that mental makeup into a ground ball and k pitcher.

by JMedwick on Jul 31, 2007 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carp
since being with the Cards, his K/9 rates have been 6.5, 7.3, and 6.8.  Certainly looks like a consistent 6-7 K guy who can get the DP.  And the philosophy you described certainly sounds a lot like Carp -- although he may use the curve more than the 4 seamer, not sure, at least in the middle and late innings.

by chuckb on Jul 31, 2007 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree that the mental makeup seems
very important to them.  I mentioned the other day that Wainwright is a very strategic pitcher, thinking of the game (as many pitchers do) as a chess game between pitcher and hitter that can unfold in different ways during the game, given particular situations and adjustments that are being made to his pitching.  Most times that TLR talks about him, he says he's really smart and then qualifies that with how he can make strategic discernments in the midst of pitching that he then goes and talks to Duncan about.  That can often lead to changing the gameplan rather than just going ahead with a predetermined plan.  This kind of "mental" or "analytical" capacity would take time to mature, I would think, but maybe they can get a handle on it even in a very young player.  I do think it's important to think past just the four-seam and two-seam debate to the mental or analytical capacities of pitchers (and to their competitiveness and ability not to be rattled).  The cards got lots of complaints about their first draft choice and the reason they did was because they depended on "intangibles" that they factored in by watching the player under pressure and talking to lots of people who knew him about such "intangibles."  I'm sure they'll continue this in the future since it was so prominent in this year's draft.

by nycardfan on Jul 31, 2007 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ouch
I'm pretty sure you didn't mean it to be, but that last line seems to me like it goes over the line into a personal attack.

by john vb on Jul 31, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Strictly meant
in terms of baseball sense...makeup...moxy.  Call it what you will, but he is definitely a head case.

by silent_bob on Jul 31, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

fair enough
I certainly can't argue with you on that.

by john vb on Jul 31, 2007 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

good stuff
i have a quick question...will Marti see time in the big league spring training? he has a .963 OPS in the mexican league. he's really cut down his strikeouts and increased his walks.

by erik on Jul 31, 2007 10:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No surprise but...
I was wondering what Latin Lou's fate would be as well and would be interested to hear Luhnow confirm that the organization sent him to the Mexican league purely to get as many of those OF's into AAA competition.

by liam on Jul 31, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm still confused about the
pitching philosophy--I mean can we have Johan Santana on our staff or not?  He's a free agent in 2009--I'm willing to start a collection to pay him.........

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 10:04 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No
he'll earn more than $20 M per year and get 5-7 years.  He's the best pitcher in baseball now, but I wouldn't spend 20% or more of our payroll on any 1 player, nor would I give any free agent pitcher more than $100 M and possibly more than $150 M.

So, the answer to your question is No.

by chuckb on Jul 31, 2007 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's why I offered to take up a collection......
maybe if we all threw change in a cup......I'm joking about the collection, but I would love to have him on my staff.........I know he probably ends up staying in Minnesota with the new park coming and all.....

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

speaking of the . . .
cost of pitching, what is the situation as far as insurance and Carpenter--does the club have him insured?  is it going to receive payment for Carp's salary while he is broken down?  if they get it, are they going to be cheap and not spend it?
Here's to the hopeful resurection of the MV3

by SprfldCards on Jul 31, 2007 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Someone posted last week
that he's insured except for shoulder injuries.

by sdrone on Jul 31, 2007 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great read
the part about PJ Walters makes me want him called up even more.  

How does he not have 'the stuff' yet he throws a screwball/changeup?

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 10:05 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He doesn't throw very hard,
and borderline 'trick' piches aren't usually included when scouts talk about a guy's stuff.  Knuckleballers can be just as unhittable as a flamethrower, and yet the knuckler is never considered to be part of a quality package of stuff.  Not sure why, though.  
Do you hear that? That's the sound of my dreams being crushed.

by the red baron on Jul 31, 2007 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How many knucklers
have lasted 5+ years in the league?  (besides Wakefield, etc.)

Hell, I can't even think of 5 guys that incorporate a "knuckle-curve" in their stuff.  Maybe it's just not that well-documented?  Can anyone think of some pitchers that fit the bill?

by silent_bob on Jul 31, 2007 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does Izzy still throw it?
Is his curveball still the 'knuckle-curve'?

I know Mike Mussina used to throw it, with about 20 other pitches.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Knucklecurve
Izzy throws it, Mussina throws it, Dan Haren throws it, Bobby Jenks throws it, Felix Hernandez used to throw it.

The thing about the knucklecurve is that, really, it's no different than a normal curve. Instead of just laying the middle and forefingers flat along the seam, the forefinger is spiked. The pitch is then thrown just like a normal curve (wrist supinated into the "karate chop" position, fingers pointing at the ear).

Recently I've come across a couple people who believe that the knucklecurve is just a knuckleball with a little bit of topspin to get it to drop. They believe the little bit of topspin comes from the rapid extension of the forefinger. I really don't believe this is the case. I think the knucklecurve (or "spike" curve) is just another way to throw a curveball.

Hernandez stopped throwing it because you have to grip the ball pretty tight to throw one, and it put strain on his elbow. He went back to a normal curve grip and it took some strain off his elbow.

Just as a reference:

Normal curveball grip:

Knucklecurve:

by Jhusk on Jul 31, 2007 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ask VeB, and you shall receive!
Ask for 5 knuckle-curve throwers - Done.

Can anyone tell me where I can find a money tree?  Thanks.

by silent_bob on Jul 31, 2007 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow
I really didn't mean to sound like so much of a jerk... I didn't even realize there were 5 names in my post. Those were just the only guys I could come up with off the top of my head!

Anyway, yeah, if there's one thing I know, it's how to talk about pitching...

by Jhusk on Jul 31, 2007 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For the record...
I don't think you sounded at all like a jerk.

I very much appreciated both the illustrative list of players as well as the 6,000 words worth of photo illustrations.  Danke!

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jul 31, 2007 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Currently,
Wakefield is the only established knuckleballer in the bigs.  Charlie Haeger, of the hated White Sox, looks promising, but he's just starting out.  The knuckleball is just one of those things that very few people are comfortable throwing, and almost no one ever suggests you try it.  Don't know why, they're usually damned durable pitchers, and look at the money Barry Zito got, based largely on durability.  

Historically, there have been some really great knuckleballers.  Hoyt Wilhelm, Charlie Hough, and Phil Niekro are probably the most well known, but there are many, many more of them.  However, as the teaching ideas in pitching have narrowed, unusual things like the knuckler, the eephus, some of the really odd deliveries/arm angles, and other eccentricities have almost completely disappeared.  

Do you hear that? That's the sound of my dreams being crushed.

by the red baron on Jul 31, 2007 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sports Weekly
Did a great piece on the history of the knuckleballer a year or so ago.  They found that the number of knuckleballers has always been very low, with folks proclaiming it's dying out.  But then another couple guys pick it up...

They also found that most of the guys who throw it were pitchers or even position players who, often due to injury, were on their way out of professional baseball.  So out of desperation, these guys find some mysterious man in a darkened alley who teaches them the knuckler.

by bgodar on Jul 31, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes. also:
Joe Niekro, Wilbur Wood, and I believe Ted Lyons. The knuckleball has been a part of baseball for a very long time and there have been a number of great pitchers who threw little but the knuckleball.

by matt reeder on Jul 31, 2007 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sparks
Steve Sparks lasted a while despite his badness

by zolak16 on Jul 31, 2007 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What does Walters top out at
velocity wise?  For a 6"4' kid, I hope he's not another 88 mph fastball guy for the rotation.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then,
you may not want an answer to your velocity question, Hardcore.  Some things are just better left unsaid.  
Do you hear that? That's the sound of my dreams being crushed.

by the red baron on Jul 31, 2007 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think I read that in Goold's piece
and chose to black it out.

Noooooooooooooo!

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You could always
change your tag to "Call up Mark McCormick"...
Do you hear that? That's the sound of my dreams being crushed.

by the red baron on Jul 31, 2007 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He is.
I think his fastball tops out between 88-90 mph.
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In all honesty, though,
Walters' overall package of stuff is pretty similar to Minnesota's Kevin Slowey, complete with the average fastball velocity, thrown with tremendous command and an effortless delivery that helps it play up.  

Walters does have better complementary pitches than Slowey, though, especially his changeup/screwball/whatever the hell it is.  

Do you hear that? That's the sound of my dreams being crushed.

by the red baron on Jul 31, 2007 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure I'm not the only one
who thinks it's ironic that your comp for him is named "Slowey".  Now THAT's a name for a knuckleballer.

by lordsummer on Jul 31, 2007 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Couple of things...
First off, very nice interview, Lb.  All good questions; you managed to ask a couple of pretty tough ones without the tone becoming beligerent.  Excellent work all around.  

If the Cardinals are really looking at the last three games and thinking that they really have a chance to be a big time contender, then I have to agree with your assessment: they are preparing to make at least one, and maybe a couple, of mistakes.  More than anything, this club needs a serious pruning job done; eliminate some salary and prepare to restructure in the offseason.  Instead, once again, the spectre of trading the future for the promise of the short term looms large.  Gah!  Hopefully, the words have shifted more than the ideas, and the front office doesn't mortgage the team any further.  Please, guys, just try to move a little salary, give a couple of tryouts to kids, and don't let this random burst of life fool you.  It's still a bad team.  Accept that.  

I thought it was awfully interesting, the way that Mr. Luhnow answered your question about signing bonuses, vis a vis the allocation of resources.  He basically said that they only draft players they believe are worth more than what they will cost.  Therefore, it stands to reason, they believe they drafted all players who will, in the end, be good values.  Unfortunately, (for the Cardinals) that statement really robs them of a leg to stand on if they fail to sign their 'home run' pick guys.  The player is worth more than what he costs, so what could possibly be the reason for not paying it, if not the desire to cut costs?  

I have been one who has been a big proponent of the new philosophy in the organisation, as far as attempting to build more from within, and so I have stood pretty firmly behind them when they have refused to pony up for ridiculously overpriced free agents.  But if you seriously want to develop the talent, you have to be willing to pay for the talent in the first place.  The cost of developing a player, considering how long he remains under a team's control, compared to the cost of even a three year deal for a middle of the road free agent pickup, is almost inconsequential.  C'mon, guys, just give these other kids their money.  It's the right thing to do.  

I also find it interesting how strong a stance baseball is attempting to take to curb bonuses, via their slotting system, while having no problem with the unsustainable explosion in FA player salaries.  I understand the Player's Association, (boo short sighted unions!) has a big hand in this, but the lack of fiduciary responsibility in the FA market is a far bigger problem than worrying about teams spending extra to buy kids out of college commitments.  Both MLB and the MLBPA have really missed the boat on this one.  

Do you hear that? That's the sound of my dreams being crushed.

by the red baron on Jul 31, 2007 10:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hmm...
I just reread what I wrote, and very little of it is completely lucid.  See, this is what happens when you don't get the sort of sleep that human beings need.  Barely cogent baseball arguments.  So think about that next time you stay out all night on a Monday.  I just pray you're not arguing the value of wPA with someone you care about when your coherency starts to fade, mister.  
Do you hear that? That's the sound of my dreams being crushed.

by the red baron on Jul 31, 2007 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cost/benefit vs. Cost-Cutting
I appreciate Luhnow's answer, and I'm not one that necessarily thinks we were fools for not drafting Porcello, etc.  Clearly, this is a smart organization that tries to avoid signing any player for more than they are worth.  But I think there's mounting evidence that our concept of market value is a season or two behind the rest of the league's.

The same philosophy is behind our free agent signings, and as development is less a part of that equation, it's easier to evaluate.  I posted a diary a while back about the botched second base situation - we didn't sign Grudzialanek because he was "over market value," then a year later signed the Adam Kennedy disaster to a contract comparable to what Grudz signed.  To a lesser degree, Reggie Sanders became Juan Encarnacion, Suppan and Marquis became Looper and Wells, etc.  Some of these are close to a wash, but it'd be hard to argue we're getting better.

We've certainly hit some jackpots in the Jocketty years with reclamation projects.  But more and more I feel like this organization thinks the only way to get value is to sift through the bargain bin, and more often than not there's a good reason those DVDs are $1.

by bgodar on Jul 31, 2007 10:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I hope they realize they should have
just given Grudz the money.  Don't forget the Junior Spivey experiment.....letting Belliard walk.....it's a black hole and will be for awhile unless they cut ties with Kennedy......I think Laduncetty has gotten a little bit arrogant about baseball decisions....it's on the public record that Kennedy couldn't hit lefthanders......they looked and just didn't see that flaw in his game, because if they did they would have never given that contract.....

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just saw this....
It seems Johnny Gomes of the DRays may be made available.  Would anyone be interested?  What do you think it would take to get him?  I think if the cost is low, it would be a great pickup.  The guy is simply mashing right now.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/07/rays-willing-to.html#comments

by El Schweenador on Jul 31, 2007 10:38 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Sorry...
Meant to say mashing over the past two months or so.

by El Schweenador on Jul 31, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eeehhhhhh...
You know, I just don't know about Gomes.  He definitely has a nice bat, and that would be a nice pickup, but his defense is quite poor, and I'm not sure where he would play.  He's pretty much a left fielder all the way, and we have a guy in left already that's just sort of been stuck there to get his bat in the lineup.  

Gomes would be an upgrade in the lineup, but I'm not sure how well he fits for this team.  

Do you hear that? That's the sound of my dreams being crushed.

by the red baron on Jul 31, 2007 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good interview...
as always. Luhnow always provide great info on the farm system even though he skirts the tough questions (Porcello) and tows the company line with the best of them.

As for the team not making changes because of this weekend, I honestly don't think they would've been able to trade anyone anyways.

Izzy - won't waive his NTC
Springer - won't be traded due to family reasons
Franklin - was re-signed
Percival - has some value and could still be dealt
Juan - i dont think we were going to find a taker for him regardless personally.

- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 10:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Maybe the Phillies...
would be interested in Juan?  I didn't get the chance to follow up on it, but it looked like both Victorino and Bourn were hurt in the game against the small bears last night.  In the postgame interview they asked Rowand how losing two right fielders in one game would affect the team.  If the injuries are serious rather than day-to-day (I'm not really clear on this,) Juan could make a lot of sense.

by El Schweenador on Jul 31, 2007 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Given that we've got little to trade
I don't hate the idea of trying to pick up a starting pitcher, especially as our rotation looks to be just about as thin next year.

A nice move, should the pieces come together, would be to move a prospect, preferably one of our all-hit/no glove 1B/OFers, for a #3 or #4 starter, while also flipping Percival to a contender for a prospect that better fits our needs (probably middle infield).

My bigger concern is that this un-tradable mass doesn't change much in the off season.  All the more reason to give the cards at least a delicate shuffle in the right direction now.

by bgodar on Jul 31, 2007 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chin-Ling-Hu
Not sure if I spelled that right...anyways.

The Dodgers seem to be floating their SS prospect out there for all kinds of late-inning relief help...Dotel, Cordero and Rauch of the Nats.  This kid is supposed to be the real-deal defensively and his bat is coming along.  Sounds a little like a SS prospect from the late 70's that turned out to be a pretty good major leaguer (and my favorite player of all time).

I hope Walt has been on the phone with LA.  Percival is a valuable piece, but expendable for us...he may not be enough by himself I'd consider throwing in Flores.

by cardzfanbub on Jul 31, 2007 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Padres Inquire on Eck
"According to Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, the Padres have asked the Cardinals about impending free agent David Eckstein.  They'd use him at second base.  However, the Cardinals aren't prepared to sell off parts after a recent winning streak."

Hmm... I'm not sure how I feel about this.  I love Eck but I also love the idea of Brendan Ryan playing everyday at SS.  

by stltrav09 on Jul 31, 2007 11:06 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'd trade Eck for whatever we could get
unless he'd be more valuable in terms of the draft choices we'd get when he leaves as a FA.  It's possible that he'd be a Class A free agent and worth a 1st rounder and a supplemental.  At worst, he's a Class B FA worth a supplemental pick.  That may bring someone more valuable than the person we could get in trading for him.

by chuckb on Jul 31, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Given how little the Twins got
for Luis Castillo, I can't imagine there's much on the table for Eckstein.  If there were a legitimate prospect or cheap major leaguer involved, it might be worth it.  But even if Eckstein won't be re-signed and we're out of the race, there's some value in not having to watch some combination of Ryan/Miles/Kennedy every night for the rest of the season.

by bgodar on Jul 31, 2007 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Given houstoncardinal's point
about draft picks, I doubt there's anything on the table for Eckstein more valuable than those compensation picks.  All reports I've read say those minor leaguers the Twins got for Castillo don't project as big league players, while compensation picks are fairly likely to.

by bgodar on Jul 31, 2007 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What the Cardinals need...
both long- and short-term, is starting pitching! And I think there simply isn't any of that to be had at the trading deadline this year.

I dunno if Philly has any "blocked" starting pitching... if they had any MLB-ready talent, he'd be in the Phils' rotation right now! So while they might need Juancion, what would the Cards get in return? (I wouldn't mind seeing a Ludwick/Ankiel platoon in RF for the rest of this season, let alone '08!)

The Cards won't/can't trade from the bullpen (as noted above); faggedabout moving APu, JEd, Scotty, Yadi, or Young Dunc; and I doubt that there's much (if any) market for Kennedy, Miles, Speezer, So, or Sno-Cones. That leaves Juancion and Eckstein... and ya tell me you're gonna trade the WS MVP the following year, when you've got (admittedly slim) post-season hopes of your own??? I don't see it happening.

If the Birds do nothing at the deadline, I won't be surprised... and doing nothing now might set up the off-season moves for '08. The Birds' success this year and next will depend largely upon guys like Wainer, Thompson, and Reyes maturing as MLB pitchers. If Mulder can "come back" to close to pre-injury form, that's a bonus for '08. And one can always hope the Birds will get a guy named Chris Carpenter around next year's trading deadline!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jul 31, 2007 11:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Quentin?
Just read on mlbtraderumors that the D'Backs are floating Carlos Quentin for starting pitching.  Quentin and Duncan flanking Rasmus in 2009...ah, that would be nice.

by MemphisIrish on Jul 31, 2007 11:18 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Cardinals acquire Joel Pineiro for PTBNL
minor leaguer, according to Hadley.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 11:23 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You win this round Hardcore!
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

WTF?
seriously?

I have to figure that he is coming to "replace" one of our other relievers who is leaving in a trade, but I can't imagine anyone thinks that he is better than the guys we've been shuttling back and forth to Memphis

by tdawg on Jul 31, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great - another
pitcher who couldn't hack it in the AL.  It better be a Tomo Ohka-type deal

Meh.

by silent_bob on Jul 31, 2007 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

just looked him up on baseball reference
his most "similar player" is Jason Marquis

by tdawg on Jul 31, 2007 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I smell a Troy Percival trade
With Pineiro joining the Kelvin Jimenez and friends travelling bullpen show.  They can't be looking at Pineiro as a viable option in the rotation at this point.  Can they?

by bgodar on Jul 31, 2007 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Joel Pineiro is on his way to St. Louis....
Just what we need.......the guy stinks.
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 11:23 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Pineiro
Will he start for us?  He's been used out of the pen for Boston this year but was a starter his entire career prior to this season.

I like the move.  Simply put, it's very low risk.  I'm not sure what his contract situation is but it gives us another option as a starter for next season.  

We've seen what a move from the AL to the NL can do for some pitchers... lets see if Joel can do the same!

by stltrav09 on Jul 31, 2007 11:28 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Pineiro
Had just been moved down to AAA where he started twice going 3ip then 5ip with decent results although he only had 3ks.

by zolak16 on Jul 31, 2007 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This has to be a precusor to a Troy Percival trade
but why do we need Pineiro?  After Falkenborg's great performance on Saturday, couldn't he do just as well if not better?

by El Schweenador on Jul 31, 2007 11:35 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I read somewhere that Falkenberg was DFAed
Maybe because he was out of "options"....Pretty rough 'thank you' for him saving our season (if even for just a moment) w/ his three scoreless....

by cardsfaninmass on Jul 31, 2007 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's really in Falkenborg's best interest
It wouldn't surprise me if a team put a claim in on him, he's got to be better than someone somewhere in the big leagues. It'd be nice for him to land on someone else's roster, and we might pick up a ptbnl of our own in the deal.

by liam on Jul 31, 2007 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Outrighted
was the term I saw used in the P-D article.  Is that different from DFA?  It is apparently different from optioned but what exactly does it entail. (Inquiring minds want to know!)

by ArkansasTravs on Jul 31, 2007 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Answering my own question...
I looked it up.  If a player is outrighted to the minors, he is removed from the 40-man roster and, to be brought back, will then have to have his contract purchased from the MiLB team.

Each player can be outrighted once w/o consent.  If he is outrighted a second time, he has the choice of refusing to report and then becomes a free agent.

So, anyone know if this is Falkenborg first time to be outrighted?
(Also, this seems to me that they were planning on adding someone to the 40-man when they sent Falk back down, thus the "outrighted" versus just "optioned".)

by ArkansasTravs on Jul 31, 2007 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, though realize...
Purchasing the contract from the MiLB team is only a paper move.

All minor league players are employees of the parent club, it just transfers which budget the player is paid from.

Some of the terminology is a relic from when this wasn't the case.

by whopperman on Jul 31, 2007 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Pinero starts, Reyes down again?
I Can see Tony claimibg he's a "proven" major league starter (even though he's not) and thus legitimate yet another demotion for Reyes.

I don't see why we need him for the bullpen...the only reason would be to reconvert him back to the rotation. As long as Reyes stays, I'm Ok w/ that.

by cardsfaninmass on Jul 31, 2007 11:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Despite the losing record, Reyes is not
the worst pitcher in the starting rotation.  He's had two good outings in a row, he appeared to put his time at Memphis to good use to find his location and he had a game plan on how he dispatched the hitters Saturday.  And after the game he said something to the effect that he figured it might be the last time he'd be here, and so he decided he'd leave it all out on the field.  If that doesn't prove he's worthy of another chance, nothing will and he should be traded immediately.  Because at that point you are purposely hindering his progress to be good for himself or anyone else.

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wholeheartedly agree...
...but wouldn't you agree that Reyes is the most likely to lose his spot....This is assuming that Maroth has already lost his - not guarenteed either.

by cardsfaninmass on Jul 31, 2007 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course he is....it's the easy decision,
the ticket to Memphis, I'm sure is still in his locker-but they should not do that-he lost 10 in a row-who's to say he won't win 10 in a row?  I personally will kick a puppy and send LaRussa a side of beef if does that with him.  They have got to see if he can move forward from here.  Of course, he's probably already in Memphis......

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ahhahahaha
"I personally will kick a puppy and send LaRussa a side of beef if does that with him."

thats just too funny

"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 31, 2007 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you....the kick the puppy was something
Brad Thompson said after a tough outing, but the side of beef thing is all mine......

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

again, i think this is borderline paranoia
they bumped falkneborg to keep reyes up. he's making his next start. the article about him being recalled was on the mlb.com site and on espn.com in the top stories bar. it is an established fact that they are giving him another start. please stop with the "they hate reyes" schtick if at all possible.

by willievinceterry on Jul 31, 2007 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fact is
the Cardinals have no other choice but to start Reyes BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO OTHER OPTION.  

Sure, some are "borderline paranoid" that he may be bumped, but I don't think its an unreasonable fear, given their handling of the kid.

by silent_bob on Jul 31, 2007 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And the fact that Anthony refused to
die ought to tell you all you need to know about him.....if he goes, I predict they will regret it for years to come.

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes
"And the fact that Anthony refused to die ought to tell you all you need to know about him"

Jeez... the guys a 25 year old professional baseball player that makes a pretty nice living. He's gotten bounced around between AAA and the majors; it's not like he is some 22 year old making 20K a year on his 3rd deployment to Afghanistan. I certainly hope he has the mental makeup not to let a few trips to Memphis "kill" him.

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Aug 1, 2007 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great interview LB ... Porcello
I found Jeff Luhnow's response to the Porcello / Russell question "interesting".  If they did not think Porcello (the best pitching prospect in the 2007 draft sitting there for the taking) was a worthy investment of $6 to $7 mill, I am left wondering about the Mark Mulder contract.  Here is a guy with an injury that very, very few ML pitchers come back from at all much less come back at All-Star form and we gave him a 2 year $13 mill contract.  I for one would much rather throw funny money after a bundle of potential with a high ceiling than an injury riddled vet.  The price for #1 /#2 starters has gone through the roof.  That fact has to filter down to the calculus for valuing investments in young pitching talent.  The Tigers have made that leap.  Will the Cardinals?

by jjray on Jul 31, 2007 11:38 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Since the Indians have interest in Percival...
could we end up seeing a deal where he goes to Cleveland in exchange for Cliff Lee?  I'm not crazy about the idea, but the Indians are also openly willing to trade Lee, so from that standpoint it does make sense.

by El Schweenador on Jul 31, 2007 11:42 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ugh..
Depends who the Cards give up for Pinero, but on the whole I am not so impressed with this deal.

Just another "veteran" who can take spots away from the likes of Anthony Reyes and Brad Thompson.

I wonder...

Maybe the Cards are being smart and acquired Pinero so they can drop Maroth into the pen as a Loogy and then trade Florez...

Naw... After this weekend, don't you see it, the Cards have been winners all along, just hidden under lots of losing...

by JMedwick on Jul 31, 2007 11:51 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Do you always have such a rosy outlook?
Wow....you are a pretty depressing individual.
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dang double posts
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you always have such a rosy outlook?
Wow....you are a pretty depressing individual.
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Triple posts
triple play...

No, I am just realistic. I trust what this team has shown on the past 4 months more than what they have shown in the past week. I think the Cards are a .500 club with flaws that will only get worse they longer they are left unaddressed. With the teams play to date, 2007 was the perfect season to start to addressing these issues.

by JMedwick on Jul 31, 2007 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't want to see that happen again........
they can't keep pushing the organizations own prospects out of the way for veterans that may not work out at a much higher price tag...But this is LaDunc's strategy all along....if the veteran doesn't work out, well, they can always point to their record and say, well, we thought they were good.  It's a risk adverse strategy that has led to losing too many good players from our farm system....

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

broken record...

by willievinceterry on Jul 31, 2007 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nope....it's why we didn't even have a catcher
at AAA who was close to major league ready.  They had to get Stinnett out of retirement.  I have no problem with Stinnett, but I do have a problem that the best they had availabe at AAA was Brian Esposito.  

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Esposito
Is the worst player I've seen in AAA.  He can't hit, he can't throw, he doesn't block the plate very well, and from everything I've heard, he's a grade-A jerk.

He also, apparently, hasn't watched this clip: http://youtube.com/watch?v=65zXlytv01c as evidenced by his...incident...a couple of weeks ago.

by whopperman on Jul 31, 2007 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

looks like there is a 2008 option
at least we'll be able give him a tryout for a couple of months to see if he works out?

Joel Pineiro p
1 year/$4M (2007), plus 2008 option

by lindqja on Jul 31, 2007 12:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

anyone know how much we are paying
cause i read that boston also sent us cash.  if i had to guess i'd say it was atleast 1 mil maybe 2-3.  no way the cards just picked up a worthless player for 4mil
"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 31, 2007 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it is the prorated amount of his 4 mil salary
Since the season is about 100 games in the Cards would be on the hook only for his prorated salary for the rest of the season or about 1.5 million - (minus) whatever Boston sent along in cash.

by indakind on Jul 31, 2007 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

o thats right thanks
"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 31, 2007 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Piniero = Kip Wells
Seriously.. they are like the same pitcher...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wellski01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/pineijo01.shtml

If it were 2003 we'd have a hell of a rotation.

by boilertiger on Jul 31, 2007 12:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If it was 2003
Pineiro would be the closer.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe Pineiro is going to be
part of a trade for someone else, or maybe Boston just wanted to dump a contract......

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and the cards
just wanted to pick up another veteran bum. sweet
"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 31, 2007 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, now that sounded a little
cynical.  Anthony, please clean the trash out of your locker, and take your non-sinker throwing arm with you.........that's probably whats going on....

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And yes, I'm attempting to be cynical too,
mostly because I don't understand this move.  Maybe there's more to come and I can quit scratching my head.......

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll hop on the cynical express
and suggest that this isn't about Piniero as much as it is about "making a move" to appease the dimmer fans, and appearing to give TLR that magical veteran presence he insists on w/o actually paying much of a price for it, in preparation for easing Tony out before 2008.

Or not.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 31, 2007 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Poor predictable cardinals
Last year, the three pitchers that I predicted would be Cardinals before their careers were over were Weaver, Pinero and Millwood. This is exactly the type of roll of the dice we have seen in the past (wells being the most recent). Hopefully we see some Weaver-like magic out of Duncan for Pinero for the rest of the year.

by googs77 on Jul 31, 2007 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Millwood has been on a roller coaster this year
he'll probably be available over the off season.

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

new name for the 07 cards,,,
the bipolar-retread machine
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Jul 31, 2007 12:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I like the move
If he doesn't give up a run in the first inn of every start, I'll be happy.

Sorry, but does anyone know where I can find the lborors post from a few months ago about who in MLB saves or costs their team the most runs defensively?  I can't seem to find it with my own searches.

/end threadjack  

by stash3630 on Jul 31, 2007 12:34 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Relief help for Yankees?
I was under the impression that the Yankees needed bullpen help, but they just traded away Scott Proctor to the Dodgers for Wilson Betemit. Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for New York, unless they have a few deals in the works. Maybe they need a lefty reliever with a penchant for allowing inherited runners to score?
Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 31, 2007 12:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hey, your a number person......the Yanks
use Scott Procter a lot.....abuse points for relief pitchers are found where?  Thanks.

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Relief Abuse Points
Sounds like an interesting subject that could be discussed amongst the folks over at Baseball Prospectus. Never seen anything done on that, but that's mostly because I don't do a lot of searches for reports like that. I find a couple (WPA, Challenge Rating) that I really like and I obsess about those few.

As for what would make a study like that viable, I think it would require a set of data (warmup pitches) that I don't believe is readily available. Assuming you can get that data, you could apply consecutive outings, multiple inning outings, leverage indexes, warmup-sitdown-warmup-sitdown-warmup-enter tendencies (a particular flaw of Davey Johnson bullpens), etc., to get some idea of pitcher abuse. All told, it's probably a lot more complicated, less consistent, and a lot less useful than the effort to put into it.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 31, 2007 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks....doesn't sound too easy or maybe not
even very useful to find out-probably just keeping regular stats would get you some sort of answer.....I only asked because you know a lot about these things....

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What's interesting
is that, yesterday, in a column over at BP, someone (Joe Sheehan?) made mention of Scott Linebrink being "past his expiration date" or something like that.  It was a vague allusion that seemed to indicate the idea that relievers only had so many pitches in them and that his mediocrity this year is a by-product of either pitching too much or being over-exposed or something like that.  He compared him to John Habyan.

It would be interesting to see something studied about relievers who, basically, are relievers b/c they didn't have the stuff or the endurance to make it as starters.  Even the best have a relatively short window in which they can be successful.  He was wondering if Dan Wheeler was another who "flamed out after 150 innings."

I'm not sure if it's been studied but I'd certainly be interested in seeing more stuff like that.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6520

by chuckb on Jul 31, 2007 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"only so many pitches in them"
You know, a friend of mine says the same thing about the power windows in his car.  

"Hey, don't play with the windows!  They only have so many ups and downs in them before they fail!"

Hmm.  After re-reading what he said about the windows, I'm now wondering if he isn't simply projecting about something else....

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jul 31, 2007 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously
they got a 26 year old guy with upside who can play multiple positions for SCOTT PROCTOR?

Wouldn't they rather have Percival?  Or a bag of balls?  

by silent_bob on Jul 31, 2007 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, so
Proctor is a little better than I thought, after looking at the numbers.  I still wish the Cards would've looked at Betemit, though.

by silent_bob on Jul 31, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Proctor is a good pitcher, and it might do
him some good if the Dodgers didn't use him for 2 innings 5 times a week like the Yankees did....He acually could be a starter somewhere down the road.

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And will be
If he ever puts on Cardinal red.

by Cardinal70 on Jul 31, 2007 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It might have been nice
The Dodgers trading away Betemit made sense. The Yankees wanting Betemit made sense.
The Dodgers wanting Proctor made sense. The Yankees trading away Proctor DID NOT make sense.

I just figured that, if the Yankees were willing to trade themselves into a hole, the Cardinals could help them out for a nominal fee.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 31, 2007 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can understand it
The Yankees trading away Proctor DID NOT make sense.

Torre's used Proctor a TON.  He's in serious danger of flaming out.  Plus they can move up Joba Chamberlain whose doing well in the minors (and has better stuff than Proctor) while at the same time getting some insurance against Rodriguez leaving town.  There's some though that Proctor's one pitch away from needing surgery given Torre's usage.

by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2007 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see your point, azruavatar
Proctor (and pretty much everybody else average or better in their bullpen) has been overworked by Torre and it is probably a good idea to unload a guy who is about to pop. My point of contention is that they didn't acquire anyone of note to be a trusted piece of their relief core. Joba should be a quality pitcher, just don't know if he can slide into Proctor's role (the shutdown middle guy, not the "I don't care if you pitched 8 innings over the last four days, start warming up" guy).
Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 31, 2007 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols Chuck E. Cheese Pics
For the non-deadspinners, SB Nation Padres' blog has pictures of Albert Pujols playing Pop-a-shot at Chuck E. Cheese.  

http://www.gaslampball.com/story/2007/7/30/115627/858

I find this awesome.  But the commentators there are critical of him since he didn't sign any autographs. Of course, Padres fans would be instantly critical of Pujols given their recent playoff record against us.

by enoscountry on Jul 31, 2007 1:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I have no problem with a player not posing or
signing autographs.  I do hope he declined politely, however.  Rudeness is bad form.....

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He should've been playing Whack-A-Mole
Break the machine.  That'd be awesome.

And as for not signing autographs...the dude's on his own time.  If he doesn't sign your rookie card when he's at the park, that's an issue, but seriously these people do have more to their lives than writing their name on a card and posing.  If they accepted every invitation to take a picture or sign something, they'd never be able to do ANYTHING.

Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Jul 31, 2007 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't blame Pujols
I wouldn't sign autographs when i'm out during my personal time either if I was him. I'm sure he was polite about it, people from other teams are always looking for a chance to slander him.
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

PTBNL
In a chat going on now, the BP Trade Team says the PTBNL in the Pineiro deal is a low-level prospect.  Vague, but sounding like we didn't give up much.

by bgodar on Jul 31, 2007 2:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

JuanE is drawing interest from the Angels
reportedly. I wouldn't mind seeing a Juan for Ervin Santana or a Juan for Erick Aybar swap :D
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 2:40 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Humber for Cordero Rumor
Is Cordero that much better than Percival?  You'd think we could get something decent for him.

by eeyorethedog on Jul 31, 2007 2:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Cordero is a lot younger
and not an impending FA.
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am really high on him
he is like the new weed.
Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 31, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you buy dime bags of Perez?
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I chopped up all his baseball cards real fine
and starting smoking them. He's dynamite!

(honestly, though, I think he'll be ready by next year. I love me some college closers.)

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 31, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe he comes up this year
in September?

Apparently, urban legend Marti is also going to Memphis once the Mexican League season ends.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nothing goes better with baseball than pot
except maybe beer
"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 31, 2007 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I used to get a contact high
Every time I saw Jeff Weaver on tv.

by stl tyler on Jul 31, 2007 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Should Sammy Sosa be on the Cards radar?
I know, I know.  The baggage.  The bad defense.  The fact that he WAS a Cub.

However, one of this teams glaring weaknesses is hitting lefties.  Guess what Sammy Sosa does?  Rakes lefties.

He makes $0.5 M this year, with incentives, which is less prorated out.

If the Cardinals are serious about being buyers for rentals and fixing holes for THIS year, Sammy Sosa for a PTBNL wouldn't be a bad idea.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 3:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The crazy part about this is
I almost could see that happening.

by saladdays on Jul 31, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That'd be cool
He could rabbit hop, and as he starts toward first base TLR walks up and smacks him in the helmet and yells at him to run.

by sdrone on Jul 31, 2007 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why?
He never yells at Pujols or Juan to run.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't Tony speak Spanish?
I think Sammy would have to become a bilingual illiterate, to borrow a Stephen Wright phrase.
Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 31, 2007 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dodgers pursuing Percy
Dodgers Considering Troy Percival
ESPN's Jayson Stark says the Dodgers are "actively exploring" a trade for Cardinals reliever Troy Percival.  It would apparently require a mid-level prospect.  Percy would be a consolation prize after the Dodgers missed on Octavio Dotel; really, he's not much worse.  
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 3:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What would be
an example of a "mid-level" prospect from the Dodger organization I wonder.

by Harknights on Jul 31, 2007 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It would be something good......they
have prospects blocked up and down their farm system at just about every position.  We surely could have picked a plum......

by jillsinmo on Aug 1, 2007 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rangers made out like Bandits....
They just raked in 8 above average prospects for 2 players. 5 from the Braves for Tex and 3 from the BoSox for Gagne.
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 4:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

We didn't have the chips they did...
No one on our team that is tradeable even comes close to Mark Texiera. Izzy is as good as Gagne, but he wouldn't waive his NTC so no luck there. We had no chance of making out like they did unfortunately.
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought Izzy was a 5/10 guy anyway.......
don't they automatically get to veto a trade?

by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's what I meant...
by he wouldn't waive his NTC, same concept :P
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just meant
too bad we didn't have the resources to do something like that.

by saladdays on Jul 31, 2007 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so for how long after the deadline do trades
tend to come in?
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Jul 31, 2007 4:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

within the hour if its a big trade
if its just a player swap or a bum for a prospect than could take till the end of the day cause no one cares. either way all trades should trickle in by the end of the day
"From the S-T-L, M-O, 3-1-4"

by all in the cards on Jul 31, 2007 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

thanks
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Jul 31, 2007 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pineiro
I remember seeing him on the old ESPN game show "Teammates." The squad, representing the Mariners, consisted of Pineiro and Randy Winn. He seemed like a funny guy... ? A bit charismatic... ? Not Tony or Dunc's style, if you ask me. They like guys that aren't talkative and keep their opinions to themselves. You know, mindless. Not that there is much to expect out of J.P. anyway, but we'll see.

by udcardinals on Jul 31, 2007 4:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

how long before they get C Lee?
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Jul 31, 2007 4:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

When was the last time that the Cardinals
made a trade for a halfway functioning pitcher? It would be so refreshing to bring someone in who wasn't in need of Duncan's fixing.

by steve in georgia on Jul 31, 2007 4:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

During the season?
Depends on what you think of Woody Williams.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Matt Morris just got traded to the Pirates
If the Giants ate his contract, I'm going to be disappointed in Walt for not making this deal.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 4:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

For Rajai Davis, whoever that is...
weird weird trade, and I agree, where was Walt on this one?
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Weird thing is I just watched the
DVD from my collection of the August 25, 2005 game where Morris pitched against the Pirates.

Flores sucked then, we had a ridiculous hodge podge lineup and Morris was effective but not sparkling.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

where he should have been
morris sucks...not sure how much worse he is than pinero, but if your gonna rip them for getting Joe P then cant be mad they passed on matty mo..to inconsistent we have enough of that and hes older
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Jul 31, 2007 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

guess i missed the second half of that
if the giants ate part of his contract then it couldnt be worse than anyone they have now...still not a big morris guy though..although i did see him 1 or 2 hit the a's this yr
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Jul 31, 2007 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nevermind
the Post Gazette just said that the Giants will pick up NONE of Morris' contract.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

how much
is left on his deal? I thought he signed for way too much, but he might be the best thing they have, other than their young guys...
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Jul 31, 2007 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

$ 3 M this year
$9 M next year, plus his option for 2009 (if they want it)
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ya thats too much
for a middle of the road guy
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Jul 31, 2007 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

happy for Matty
it's got to be a relief for him to get away from that clown show.  even if it's to the Pirates...
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jul 31, 2007 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dave Littlefield
WORST ... GM ... EVER ...

This guy somehow manages to make moves that help in neither the short or long-term.  I'll always be a fan of Matt Morris, but 'splain to me how this move helps the Pirates?

by bgodar on Jul 31, 2007 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The only way
I see this working for the Pirates is Morris should be easy enough to slip through waivers. The rub there is: who would be decent enough to warrant a further trade, yet not raise any flags on the wire? Of course, there is always the "gentlemen's agreement" that might allow the deal to go through.
Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 31, 2007 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is it possible
the PTBNL for Pineiro is Mike Maroth?  Might make it more palatable.

by chuckb on Jul 31, 2007 5:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Pretty sure
The initial reports, at least, indicated a minor league PTBNL.

As in actually in the minors, not playing like they should be.

by Cardinal70 on Jul 31, 2007 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Piniero
I get Seattle's games here in Portland and I've seen the guy throw some absolute gems.  but, not being an M's fan, I had no idea how bad his numbers looked overall until this year when they let him go to Boston.  this wouldn't be a bad idea if it wasn't for the fact that it could cost Thompson and Reyes some turns in the rotation.  still, Wellemeyer is probably done as a starter and Maroth should be as well.  maybe Piniero is the new mop-up guy for KIPPY and occasional spot-starter (or maybe he just takes his job if the KIPPY goes kablooey again.)
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jul 31, 2007 5:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

His stats are decent until 2004...
I dunno if he got hurt then or what, but after 2004, his hits allowed went up dramatically and his strikeouts decreased. Before then, he seems like a decent pitcher.

Still, I was looking at his numberts at THT, and his FIP is actually not terrible. But then again, neither is that of most of the Cardinals starters (other than Maroth). He also seems to have become more of a ground ball pitcher, too. Which in theory should help, at least it would if the Cardinals actually had a decent defensive middle infield.

by DiscoJer on Jul 31, 2007 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pinero will start a game this weekend
from Bernie, from McGlaughlin

WTF?  Really?

by OCCardsFan on Jul 31, 2007 5:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

for the Cards
against Washington.
- Y. Molina stole third

by TriplePlay on Jul 31, 2007 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

makes sense
we're playing the nats in a series we HAVE to win (sweep?) to move into contention.  What better time than that to move a terrible relief pitcher into the rotation?
Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jul 31, 2007 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Weekend rotation
Per ESPN, it was supposed to be Reyes, Wells, Wainwright.

If Pineiro is going to take on of those slots, I just can't imagine at all who it'd be.  [/sarcasm]

Surely it'd make more sense to replace Maroth on Thursday?

by Cardinal70 on Jul 31, 2007 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd put Reyes on Thursday
(since I'm going to that game), then let Pineiro start Friday.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Probably see this in the game thread..
but on the post-game, they said Reyes was going to take Thompson's spot on Thursday and Joel P would probably go on Sat. vs. the Nats.

by ArkansasTravs on Jul 31, 2007 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now is Thompson out because of his blister or
because he hasn't pitched particularly well as of late?

by jillsinmo on Aug 1, 2007 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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