Cards aquire Joel Piniero
by fatbellyjefferson on Jul 31, 2007 11:43 AM EDT
56 comments
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/07/cardinals-acqui.html
For a player to be named later. This doesn't get me too excited, but it doesn't look like we'll give up much. Maybe he's this years lightning in a bottle. I guess this means we're not giving in just yet.
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Why?
by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2007 11:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Rotation
by fatbellyjefferson on Jul 31, 2007 12:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He'll need to get back on the roids
by JI on Jul 31, 2007 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Leach's take
Hola from Pittsburgh. I'm not sure I understand the Pineiro pickup, if it's all they do. My guess, though, is that it enables them to make another move, either to deal a starter or a reliever. Keep your eyes and ears open; we'll see where it goes.-M.
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 12:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If it means
For people saying Pineiro is a reliever, this is his first year as one. He was a starter with the Mariners for the past few, and a pretty solid one as well. He was signed to be a reliever, but is more than capable of being a quality starter for us. As long as one of those PTBNL aren't that spectactular, I think it was a pretty good deal.
by aet15 on Jul 31, 2007 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could mean more...
by tdub on Jul 31, 2007 12:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well
by Calhoun on Jul 31, 2007 12:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Looks awefully similar to wells
http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=334492&statType=2
Wells
http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=150337&statType=2
Stats are really similar, both were good in 2002/2003, but haven't been since. Weird.
by lynx on Jul 31, 2007 12:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Starter
by gibsonfan67 on Jul 31, 2007 12:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with LB's assessment on the main page
by Mr Redbird on Jul 31, 2007 12:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Same old same old....which youngster is going out.
by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think lboros assessment of the Weaver deal...
by cardsfaninmass on Jul 31, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1.39 Career GB/FB Ratio
Here's his FanGraphs page:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1094&position=P
Note the LD% and BABIP numbers. In 2005-2006, Pineiro (who was still recovering from arm issues) was getting hammered every time he took the mound. This year, the LD% has taken a major drop, but the BABIP was still unusually high - an optimist could see a BABIP reduction, the GB/FB rate, and the career strikeout rate (almost 6 K/9) as a potential for bounceback.
by The Man in Blak on Jul 31, 2007 12:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The assualt on Anthony Reyes continues
by jjray on Jul 31, 2007 1:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I hope your wrong...
Give Pinero a shot, too, I guess - but send Maroth and Thompson to the bullpen.
by cardsfaninmass on Jul 31, 2007 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Call me cynical, but it's another move to
by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why
by aet15 on Jul 31, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They shouldn't do that either.......
by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you on that
by nycardfan on Jul 31, 2007 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no credit
by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2007 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah,
I'll take Thompson over those 4 any day. Talk of sending Thompson to the bullpen for Pineiro is what I mean by "no credit."
Until we fill our rotation with quality, reliable starters, Thompson deserves to be in there.
by aet15 on Jul 31, 2007 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand what you are saying now
This guy gets not credit despite being our second most solid starter this year (to Wainwright).
And being the "second most solid starter" in a rotation full of scrubs does not earn you any credit in my book. Looking at him relative to our alternatives he may be a better option for the rotation, but that doesn't make him a good option for the rotation.
by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2007 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
right,
I was just responding to the poster who said he should be moved to the rotation to make room for Pineiro.
It seems like every time that one of our guys has to be bumped, the first name out there is Thompson. I was saying he "gets no credit" in that respect.
by aet15 on Jul 31, 2007 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree about Thompson
Thompson's ERA started to suffer when they began bouncing him back and forth between bullpen duty and rotation duty. Nobody else has had to do that and so it really isn't fair to compare that period of time in his pitching to others who were treated differently. He is a much better starter than a reliever--he knows that and Tony knows that. It's the same old "competition" song that they don't follow--he had one of the lowest ERA's in spring training and yet didn't get a spot. I think they'll do the same thing to him again. I would say, just let him pitch as a starter (and not starter-reliever) and see what he can do.
by nycardfan on Jul 31, 2007 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find it fascinating that you
He is a much better starter than a reliever--he knows that and Tony knows that.
There is no evidence for this. Actually there is a great deal of evidence against this. Namely that he has performed better the last few years as a reliever than he has now as a starter.
by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2007 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe you haven't been keeping up with my posts
I wanted Reyes to go to Memphis because he was allowing far too many runs with runners in scoring position and because he seemed to have lost control (location) and velocity. I was also concerned when I heard him talk about his mental preparation (or admitted lack of mental preparation) for games. I thought he could work on those things best in the minor leagues with less pressure on him and less damage to our team. I was not saying he should be sent to Siberia with no possible return (as my later comments made clear). His location is better, his velocity still seems sluggish, and I don't think we have enough evidence to know about whether he's improved with runners in scoring position. But I still think he deserves a real shot with the obvious work he has done since going to Memphis.
There isn't evidence this year that Thompson is a better reliever than starter. In fact, he had done so poorly in that spot that he was primarily brought in when the game was lost. He was just about to be sent down to AAA because of his poor relief efforts when he convinced TLR and Duncan that he had fixed his mechanical problems and that he should have a shot at a start.
Look at his spring training numbers as a starter. Then look at his numbers as a reliever in the early part of the year. There is no comparison between those performances.
And as for mental toughness--I don't think you can question Thompson on that front. He hasn't blown up games. He started under enormous pressure (with no guaranteed spot like Reyes had had) and he was given his "one chance" just after one of his best friends had died. That's pressure. And the kid should get kudos for being able to perform immediately and for so long (note--his arm hasn't worn out like Loopers) in very tough cricumstances.
by nycardfan on Jul 31, 2007 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forgot one thing--I wasn't giving him a pass
by nycardfan on Jul 31, 2007 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of the teams you listed only 1 is a good offensive
There isn't evidence this year that Thompson is a better reliever than starter.
Then don't try to evaluate Thompson in the vacuumm of this season. He's been a good reliever for two years and he's been a mediocre back of the rotation starter this season. His K rate is down and groundball% is down. Since he never excelled in either aspect those two statistics declining is very bad.
He was just about to be sent down to AAA because of his poor relief efforts when he convinced TLR and Duncan that he had fixed his mechanical problems and that he should have a shot at a start.
So he's a better starter because he fixed his mechanical problems -- NOT because he makes a better starter. Historically the trend is the other way: players are relievers because they aren't going to make it as starters. They aren't starters because relieving is too hard for them.
Look at his spring training numbers as a starter.
Look at his numbers this season. They're bad and they're a better context for evaluating performance than spring training which has all sorts of gimmicks involved in it.
He started under enormous pressure
And Reyes hasn't?
with no guaranteed spot like Reyes had had
The Reyes who Tony has said publicly he didn't want up until september?
That's pressure.
This is why trying to evaluate what other people are feeling is nearly worthless. How do you know he felt pressure and yet Reyes didn't? It's a claim that you can make without any way to substantiate it.
he's only lost 3 games
wins and losses are beyond meaningless when evaluating pitchers.
But I do think it is unfair to measure someone who is pitching as both a reliever and as a starter with someone who is pitching only as a starter
I think it's unfair that we can make excuses for Thompson's substandard performance when Reyes has a better track record as a starter and people like Wells and Maroth continue to see time in the rotation. There's a double standard in saying that Thompson has a reason (bounced between reliever and starter) even though there's zero provided evidence that this has affected his performance.
by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2007 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ehhh
Thompson has always been a very good groundball pitcher, this statement is probably too strong. He has, however, seen a significant drop in GBs which is very troubling in projecting any kind of continued success.
by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2007 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to add 1 thing
by chuckb on Jul 31, 2007 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course they evaluate every player's
Again, I made no excuses for Thompson so I'm not sure why you are dwelling on that. That seems to be an internal debate you are having with yourself. His few losses and his consistency this year compared to other starters speaks for itself. If you have a low opinion of him, then advocate for someone else.
by nycardfan on Jul 31, 2007 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
stop dancing around the subject
Thompson's ERA started to suffer when they began bouncing him back and forth between bullpen duty and rotation duty. Nobody else has had to do that and so it really isn't fair to compare that period of time in his pitching to others who were treated differently.
That is an excuse. The reason Thompson hasn't been good is because as a starter his lack of multiple quality offerings is exposed hence the decline in K rate and GB%. Please don't try to make this some "internal debate" I'm having with myself, that's BS. If you think I'm missing your point then clarify it, but the idea that I'm using you as a locutor for my internal discussions is silly.
Of course they evaluate every player's performance within the present season.
I'm saying they shouldn't. We have two sets of data for Thompson: reliever data from this year and last and data for him as a starter this year. Going back a little further (and understanding that that data is less relevant), you could look at his other times as a reliever. Saying: "There isn't evidence this year that Thompson is a better reliever than starter." is wrong. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE. There is evidence looking at what he has done this year and last that he is better as a reliever. Evaluating any player solely on his last 2 months is asking for sample size issues.
More recent data is more relevant but evaluating a player with no historical context is a bad idea. Trying to use data that is too old is also a bad idea.
by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2007 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
something I'd just like to point out --
As you said: "players are relievers because they aren't going to make it as starters. They aren't starters because relieving is too hard for them."
The first sentence is often true, but the thing is that sometimes pitchers thrive on being able to begin the game, and pace it as they see fit, instead of coming in at any random point and just taking over. It's kind of like how a lot of closers give up runs in non-save situations even though they are lights out as closers. Baseball is such a mental game like that.
Remember, the guy asked for a chance at starting. It could very well be more that he felt his mechanics would be better suited for starting than relieving, not so much that he completely fixed them.
Please don't throw numbers at me, because this really has nothing to do with that, but this is simply an observation of someone who pitched on a winning high school staff and is in good contact with several active college pitchers as well.
There's sometimes a mental factor that analyzing numbers does nothing to show.
One thing about Thompson. Remember, the guy was not conditioned to be a starter at all. Before criticizing his downfall of late, take into consideration that he spent all of spring training, and the beginning of the season, conditioning for relief stints. He's relatively as durable as Wells and Looper despite most likely not going through nearly the same type of conditioning.
by aet15 on Jul 31, 2007 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I promise not to throw numbers :o)
I'm not looking for a hard and fast rule but I also think its flimsy anecdotal evidence to say that Thompson is going to be better as a starter because he wants to be one.
I understand the caveats to Thompson's performance re: durability but I think that's overstating the fact. He just hasn't been that great as a starter this year. There's no shame in being a better reliever than a starter.
by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2007 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
son of a b-----
Should read: The same concept applies to relievers, by and large, in that most starters can be relievers but the reverse isn't true. Which totally changes the context of the statement and makes my argument above wrong. Apologies for being confusing.
by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2007 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apologies for the total
by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2007 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You still haven't squared your argument
I'm not interested in a drawn out discussion about all his stats. You are the one trying to extend the argument into other years. I'm not dancing around the issue. I'm simply not being maneuvered by you to participate in a larger argument than the one I made, which is given our possible pitchers, I think that Thompson has been more consistent and reliable than most, that he has given us a number of good wins and few losses, and that I don't think it is fair to judge his stats recently as a starter-reliever with a normal starter. That seems like common sense.
You seemed fine with the first poster's argument that Thompson perhaps should be in the rotation compared to the other starters we have available. Why don't we leave it at that and let the thread continue on its main theme. This is becoming an ever expanding splinter discussion. If you want Thompson to be the main topic, why don't you start a new thread about him. I was supporting the earlier poster's comments about Thompson but I'm not interesting in hijacking this whole thread.
by nycardfan on Jul 31, 2007 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Subject:
Spring training stats are not conducive to evaluating a player. Pitchers throw fewer than usual innings, they may face sub-par lineups and hitters haven't often found their rhythm. I like how you tell me you don't want to talk stats but you still introduced his spring training stats. You are an expert at bringing things up and then when people try to discuss them with you, you dance away from the topic and try to say that I'm "having an internal debate".
Given that players change, I was focusing on this year
Looking at a half season gives you no context. It's like reading pages 1-250 in a 500 page book that had several books written before it which are important to the plot. You don't know the course of the story line because you lack the context to make any predictions.
I'm simply not being maneuvered by you to participate in a larger argument than the one I made, which is given our possible pitchers, I think that Thompson has been more consistent and reliable than most, that he has given us a number of good wins and few losses, and that I don't think it is fair to judge his stats recently as a starter-reliever with a normal starter.
I'm not making an argument outside of this. I'm saying that there's not evidence that him being bad is because of bouncing back and forth. I contend that his sub-standard stuff is being exposed in a starters role. There are a comparable players that this happens with. The idea that most starters could be relievers is a more probable reason that Thompson bouncing back and forth. There is research (Nate Silver at Baseball Prospectus) that concluded that there is a compensating increase in ERA when relievers move to a starting role.
The reason I disagreed with you was because you used bad logic. Coming to the right conclusion (i.e. Thompson's one of our better options to start) via faulty logic (i.e. Thompson's been bad because he's been bounced around) was what I was calling into question. You continue to fail to address that point in any way. You originally said: "He is a much better starter than a reliever--he knows that and Tony knows that." without any justification. That's something that needs supporting evidence
by azruavatar on Jul 31, 2007 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Talking about logic...
Those two points are not contingent on one another. Take away the second, and the first still stands as far as what we have had available for this year. My point about his ERA going downhill after he begins doing double duty as a starter and reliever can be traced in time. But even after that time, he still continued to win (see Florida and Atlanta, etc., which I mentioned originally in my post) and he continued to be fairly consistent and blew up relatively less (compared to other starters this year). The two points are not tied together and the second point is not an excuse that somehow undermines the first one. You are conflating my points; I am not.
As to Thompson being a better starter than reliever this year, that is obvious from his stats. The parameters of my arguments were clear--I'm looking at this year because TLR and Duncan are making decisions at this time based on this years performances. I will not be drawn into a larger argument than the one I made and if that makes you feel like I'm illogical for not following your lead then so be it. I don't really care, especially after seeing how loose you play with other people's arguments.
by nycardfan on Aug 1, 2007 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Subject:
The other point about him continuing to win is an argument that I'm not going to be able to sway because you refuse to admit that winning and "not blowing up" isn't anything remotely predictive of performance. Thompson's numbers are all in decline. If you want to arbitrarily assign that to him being bounced around, fine, whatever; I'll assign it to the more documented and researched phenomena of relievers moving to starters and seeing their ERA rise.
You still haven't answered the ultimate question that I continue to repeat. HOW is it obvious that he's better as a starter than a reliever?
by azruavatar on Aug 1, 2007 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
I don't think it's really a matter of shame, but more that he has a better mindset as a starter. I don't even know if it's a matter of want. Sometimes players just don't have the mindset to do something, and it's out of their control, but they're better suited for something else.
Here's a really good example to convey what I'm saying: Think of a starting fielder, who can't pinch-hit for the life of them. They can mash the ball while starting, even against great pitchers, but put them in a pinch-hit role, even against an excuse for a pitcher, and they typically have horrible plate appearacnces.
The mindset is completely out of their control, but it's just part of their mental make-up.
This may or may not be true for Thompson, I'm more just addressing pitchers in general. It's for this reason that I think our organization often tries struggling relievers (i.e. wellemeyer, thompson, pineiro?) as starters. It's also why the moves don't always make complete sense in the stat books.
by aet15 on Jul 31, 2007 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pineiro to AAA?
This looks like a stretch-run rotation depth move to me. I guess we'll see tonight or tomorrow whether he's added to the 40-man (which would require Carp going on the 60-day DL.)
by liam on Jul 31, 2007 1:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What, Ponson wasn't available?
by mikedallas23 on Jul 31, 2007 1:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OK, if this is preparation
But, wait, due to all the manuvering this past weekend and the, what is it, 10 or 14 day "waiting" period between call-ups, who in Memphis would be available right now?
Wait #2, we've got six "starters" right now, correct? (Wainers, Brad, Loop, Kip, Maroth, Reyes) Why can't one of them (Maroth) take an open spot in the 'pen for a while?
by ArkansasTravs on Jul 31, 2007 3:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Like a pitbull, once Walt gets a bone
How many times do we hear "[Player 1] was someone the Cardinals were looking at [random amount of time ago] and now had the chance to get him."
by Hardcore Legend on Jul 31, 2007 3:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hello from
Pineiro had been stretched out in AAA and had done okay.
I view him as to pitching what Wily Mo Pena is to hitting: tons of talent and plenty of 'stuff', but he'll infuriate you... Worth a flier though.
Any thoughts who the PTBNL might be? Presumably filler from deep in your system.
by britsoxfan on Jul 31, 2007 3:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice of you to drop by.......
by jillsinmo on Jul 31, 2007 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One thing you won't have to worry about...
(Who you sent us years back for Mike Myers.)
by liam on Jul 31, 2007 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bernie reports Pineiro will start this weekend
by OCCardsFan on Jul 31, 2007 5:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep
by ArkansasTravs on Aug 1, 2007 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um, Why? This is just sad......
by jillsinmo on Aug 1, 2007 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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