VeB in the paper

by azruavatar on Jul 25, 2007 3:38 PM EDT Comment 19 comments

This is a link to the River Front Times article that will be in print at a later date. I got wind of it via USSMariners as it relates to Dave Cameron's documenting King Felix last year. The article also discusses Larry, VEB and some other topics relative to the Cardinals.

I think the situation in Seattle is very interesting and am also skeptical that we could have anything close to that happen in STL under the current management (regardless of the player in question). Kudos to USSM and VEB.

I'm posting this in a diary because a) it's not pertinent to the main thread and b) I want to spell out very clearly that this does not need to devolve into another Anthony Reyes conversation. Please do not bring that topic up in this diary.

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The critical difference here...

being that the USSM backed up what the Mariners' pitching coach was trying to pound into Felix's head, while VEB completely disagrees with LaDuncan regarding Reyes.

Major league players and coaches don't seem to be the most humble group. They mostly think that since they made it to the top they really don't need anyone telling them how to do their jobs. Though they might benefit from it, I can't forsee the day when these guys consult bloggers or sabermatricians who have never played the game.

Ease LaDunketty out gently, thank him profusely, and... Hire Antonetti!!!

by guayzimi on Jul 25, 2007 3:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't want to enter a subject

that the USSM backed up what the Mariners' pitching coach

I don't think they knew that Chavez agreed with them at the time.

I can't forsee the day when these guys consult bloggers or sabermatricians who have never played the game

Me either quite honestly. MLB is very insular. Players become managers and assitants and basically circle the wagons. It's interesting to think about though.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 25, 2007 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for that.....it was a neat little article

and it's about time lboros gets some kudos. I hope other people come on in........

by jillsinmo on Jul 25, 2007 3:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

weird

I'll be in St. Louis visiting family and to catch a few games this weekend, and where else would I be staying but the adams mark. purely by coincidence, since i used priceline to get my room for 65 bucks a night.

by longhornscardinals on Jul 25, 2007 3:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Boy...

Larussa is really an arrogant asshole isn't he....

"Informed of Hernandez's abrupt turnaround and the pitcher's willingness to tip his hat to a fan blog, St. Louis Cardinals manager Tony La Russa responds with skepticism. "If that's true, then the [Mariners] pitching coach isn't doing his job," says La Russa. "I think blogs are things that are fun, and I love that people are interested in the game. But I don't take 'em seriously."

Great article though. I wasn't aware of the Hernandez story. I know, I know...don't bring up Reyes...but maybe he could benefit from some of LBs extensive research. Tony would have nothing to do with it though...if it isn't a 100 year old cliche he doesn't wanna hear it.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 25, 2007 4:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ideas vs. Beliefs

In the movie "Dogma" (IMHO--flawed, like all Kevin Smith films, but interesting), there's a bit where Rufus talk to Linda Fiorentino's character Bethany about the difference between ideas and beliefs.

Basically, and relying on memory, he says that if you have a belief--that is, a set-in-stone "dogma," to give it up is to give up everything, so you fight for it, whether available evidence suggests that the "belief" is still correct or not.

If you have "ideas," they are subject to new information, and your "idea" of a thing...can change when it's clear that your current idea of a thing is outmoded.

With LaRussa, it's clear that he has certain beliefs about the way things work, much like his pal Bobby Knight, as LB has mentioned before. For him to say that he doesn't take an idea seriously because of ~where~ it gets stated is indicative of that outlook. Information is information, no matter where it comes from. And I think it's unfortunate that he closes off ANY avenue of input. He's not going to change.

Chaves HAD been telling Felix about his pitch selection; the "Open Letter" was more INFORMATION, which drove the point home.

by glennrwordman on Jul 25, 2007 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

In fairness

he is right.

If the pitching coach isn't picking up on things that a bunch of fans watching the game on video are, he isn't doing his job.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 25, 2007 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Point being...

is there are things that everyone is going to miss and to completely cut-off an avenue that MIGHT provide some helpful information is being an arrogant asshole.

BTW...maybe Larussa should clean his own house before worrying about the Ms pitching coach.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 25, 2007 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i agree, but...

i agree that its not wise to completely disregard one avenue, but at the same time i dont really fault tony for not paying too much attention to it. while there is some really good stuff out there in blogland, there is also a whole lot of garbage that he doesnt (or shouldnt) have the time to sort through. many times, tlr is right to dismiss the stuff...its written by people who arent in the clubhouse, havent talked to the players, havent seen the mri, etc and just speculating. of course some of the stuff, like charting king felix's pitches, doesnt require inside information.

by dmb60614 on Jul 25, 2007 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bargain bin

A major problem with LaRussa taking advice from fans/bloggers is that there is way too much dross out there to find the one nugget of useful information that is both intelligent and inventive. Tony would basically need an open-minded coach to pitch it to him as the coach's own idea so he doesn't immediately dismiss it.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 25, 2007 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i dont want to bring up reyes

too much. But wouldnt it seems that TLR and Duncan would want to see the research lborors has on Reyes and his pitches up in the zone??? Dosnt Dunc have a gross amount of loaded binders with info on every hitter??? why would you do that and not look at the same kind of info for a pitcher?? these kind of numbers seem to be right up LaDunc's ally.

by Dave0585 on Jul 25, 2007 4:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

LaDunc's numbers

and saber numbers are 2 different animals, my friend.

Look, Tony and Dave were revolutionary in their own right. But a new revolution has emerged, and Dave/Tony won't be part of it. As the author put it, these two have found a way that has worked for them. They will not stray from their platoon splits and sinker-loving ways. Ever.

by silent_bob on Jul 25, 2007 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

are the stats that say

reyes is very hard to hit when he pitches up in the zone (tracking pitches and locations) really considered sabers??? I didn't think they were...i thought pitch selection and a hitter's weakness and strengths are the kind of numbers tony and dave tracked.....it wouldn't be the first time i was wrong though

by Dave0585 on Jul 25, 2007 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nope

LaRussa wouldn't have anything to do with it. He is way to arrogant to admit that someone outside of his circle may have a better idea than him. Especially any ideas coming from "stupid fans".

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 25, 2007 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That made me laugh......

by jillsinmo on Jul 25, 2007 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah...

Tony's attitude is wearing real thin on me...in case you can't tell.

Pitch to swing and misses...not contact. I've never heard of a "seeing eye K"

by bobbyballgame1 on Jul 25, 2007 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I especially love that he's so surprised that any

one would have a question about an in game decision. That arrogant look on his face that says "I know everything. You know nothing. How dare you ask such a question!" I have a feeling that LaRussa's intensity has just plain wore the players out. I used to like the guy.....I think he's a control freak who has so many things out of his control right now he just can't deal with it. He's been acting like a whackjob..

by jillsinmo on Jul 25, 2007 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The mention in the article

of USS Mariner 'events' (that the Mariners GM has attended) gets me wondering: where are our VEB meet-n-greet caravans? Seems like a fun idea, though with the blog fan base spread from San Francisco to Iowa to Iraq and the man himself in Denver, hard to choose a spot...

Just don't let Larry charge $10 an autograph.

by jfs on Jul 25, 2007 7:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs