rough cut

by lboros on Jul 20, 2007 9:14 AM EDT in News Comment 127 comments

just the day before yesterday, usa today ran an article about pitchers who have had two tommy john surgeries. it's a very short list, which includes former cardinal setup man al reyes --- and, shortly, will include chris carpenter. the cardinals grudgingly confirmed yesterday that carp needs the procedure again, for the second time in five years --- he previously had this operation in 2002, right before he joined the cardinals. while first-time TJ surgeries succeed 80 to 85 percent of the time (with "success" defined as the pitcher's returning to his pre-operation level of ability), the outlook is less favorable for second-time patients: only 20 percent come back from it. al reyes represents the best-case scenario; a more cautious analog is darren driefort, who had his first TJ surgery in 1994 and his second in 2001 --- after which his arm had only 111 major-league innings left in it.

those are the facts. don't gotta like 'em; do gotta live with 'em.

Update [2007-7-20 11:59:2 by lboros]: wait a sec --- those are not the facts. as several people pointed out below, carpenter has never had TJ surgery before; he did have elbow surgery, but it was to clean out bone spurs. i got some bad information, didn't check it carefully, and passed it along --- my mistake, my apologies. [end update]

the cardinals seem not to want to face reality; jocketty is not returning reporters' calls, and paletta is unavailable for comment. it's as if they think they can change carp's status by not talking about it. although the decision to cut was made wednesday and has been widely known since then, the organization refused to confirm it until late yesterday afternoon. indeed, it took them several days to confirm that carpenter had visited TJ specialist james andrews. why the stonewalling? what did the club gain from it? what did the fans gain? given the significance of this news, you'd think the front office would have something to say. weird . . . .

out of curiosity, i went back and looked at how VEB reacted eight months ago, when carp signed his extension. the immediate reaction was glee; the day-after reaction --- more glee. in the latter post, i addressed the injury risk --- "the cardinals accept the fairly high likelihood that, at some point during the life of the contract, carpenter will miss half a season with an injury; might even need a little surgery (on his shoulder, elbow, back, or whatever)" --- but then blithely waved it off: "put me down as a supporter [of the extension]; the cardinals are taking a sensible risk." it might have been sensible in spite of the outcome; maybe the cards just got unlucky. or maybe i (and the cards) underestimated the risk; maybe it wasn't a smart deal after all. don't forget, at the time they extended carpenter the cardinals already had him locked up through next season; 2007 was the last guaranteed year, and they held an option on him for 2008. that being the case, a lot of people wondered why the cardinals didn't wait a year before considering an extension. what if he has a catastrophic injury? what if he goes into gradual decline the way matt morris did (or the way barry zito and dontrelle willis seem to be doing this year)? joe sheehan at Baseball Prospectus was one of the people asking those questions, and suggesting the cardinals should have waited at least one more year; another was our own azruavatar:

I'm just not sure I'm a fan of the extension. It isn't a bargain discount. We had him under our control for 07 and 08. I don't understand the logic behind locking him up now. If he blows his shoulder out this year, that's a HUGE contract to get saddled with for an organization.

Even assuming that two years from now (or one year) ace's are getting 20M a year...I still don't like it. There was no reason to extend now. It's one thing to make a 4 year offer in the effort of landing a player (Burnett) it's another thing entirely to give a 4 year guaranteed extension to a pitcher with an injury history when you have him under control for 2 more years.

Maybe I'm missing something . . .

or maybe the rest of us were.

before i leave the subject, i'll refer you to an article in today's new york times stating that aspiring young pitchers throughout america are clamoring to have tommy john surgery. in god's name, why? according to this piece, the procedure has such an outstanding track record that it is now thought, mistakenly, to add mphs to a pitcher's velocity --- people believe they will throw harder after they have the operation. pure bunk, the doctors all say, but teenagers with dreams of big-league paychecks are eagerly submitting to the scalpel anyway --- even trumping up their symptoms in some cases to persuade their docs that the surgery can't be avoided.

* * * * * * * *

a little news about the game on the field: earlier this week mgl published his midseason UZR ratings. most of you already know UZR (or ultime zone rating) as one of the premier systems for measuring players' skill with the glove. the cardinals grade out as follows (figures expressed as runs prevented above / below average for the position):

player	runs
rolen	14
pujols	7
kennedy	6
ludwick	3
eckstein	1
p wilson	1
spiezio	-1
schumaker	-1
taguchi	-2
edmonds	-3
duncan	-4
encarnacion	-6
miles	-8

by these lights, rolen has the 4th-highest total of runs prevented in baseball, trailing only pedro feliz (19), oakland 2bman mark ellis (16), and cleveland cf'er grady sizemore (16). adam kennedy ranks 2d among national league 2bmen and 5th overall; only ellis, cano, kaz matsui, and aaron hill have prevented more runs. pujols is 3d among national league 1st-sackers, behind todd helton and adam laroche. on the other side, encarnacion is dead last among national league right-fielders (al RFers alex rios, michael cuddyer, jose guillen, and jd drew are worse).

these are overall figures, with all positions lumped together; spiezio, for example, has saved 3 runs as a third-sacker but has cost the team 3 runs in the outfield and one at first base. the team's unit ranks go like this:

unit	runs
infield	22
outfield	-15

the infield defense has actually been better than it appears here, insofar as one player (miles) drags the overall score down by 8 runs; without him they've saved 30 runs, or 3 games in the standings. these figures only go through games of july 9, and brendan ryan doesn't appear; i guess he hadn't taken enough chances afield yet to show up in the system. the outfield defense . . . . well, put it this way: with average outfield gloves (and the excellent infield gloves), the cardinals would rank 10th in the league in era, instead of 15th.

so that's another of the many problems this organization will need to address as it goes forward.

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Comments

"why the stonewalling?...

...what did the club have to gain from it?"

Maybe they were negotiating deals and didn't want any potential suitors to know how desperate they were?

by birdjam on Jul 20, 2007 9:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

carp's status was common knowledge

in the clubhouse, among reporters, among scouts. the only people they were fooling (or trying to) were the fans.

by lboros on Jul 20, 2007 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

True.

Maybe they were trying to swing a trade with some fans.

by birdjam on Jul 20, 2007 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

unlikely

the ruse was up when carp stopped doing bullpens. thats a giant red flag. it was public knowledge carp was not likely to be back soon, even before the surgery was announced. its also public knowledge the cards arent exactly contenders. they wouldnt have been bidding on any difference makers. carp's status doesnt matter when you are trolling for reclamation projects.

by dmb60614 on Jul 20, 2007 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wish it was 40 degrees and raining out

this sunny and 80 shit is not matching my mood right now.

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 20, 2007 9:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm in Maine and it's in the 40's and raining

doesn't make the mood better.

Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Jul 20, 2007 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Information

The Cards have consistently, at least in the last few years, been strangely reticent about giving out injury information. I don't know if they have a strange interpretation of HIPPA or what, but you'd think the best way not to have to continually answer questions about something would be to get the info out there, take your lumps, and move on.

by Cardinal70 on Jul 20, 2007 9:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Strangely reticent

is like saying Mt. Everest is just a little hill. The CIA isn't this secretive, for Christ sake. And that's what really pisses me off about this team. It starts at the top and goes all the way down to the on-field brass, and the players are being affected as a result.

"It's always about money; anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jul 20, 2007 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Farm

These situations just reiterate how important the home grown talent is, especially for a "small market team". What the team is willing to pay is what they are willing to pay, young inexpensive talent is imperative to this teams success.

Also, lboros, I really enjoy the site, Im on the east coast and Ive found your site to be the best place to follow the team, thanks!

by UNCDubya on Jul 20, 2007 9:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Question:

Could the player to be named later in the Mike Maroth trade be Mike Maroth? Please?

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 20, 2007 9:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't think Carp has had TJ surgery before -

This from
http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070719&content_id=2097248&vkey=news_ stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl

"Carpenter has undergone two previous elbow surgeries, as well as a pair of shoulder operations. He's never had ligament replacement, however."

So the premise that he is going to become a two-timer is off, right?

by cardsfaninmass on Jul 20, 2007 9:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I noticed that too ...

I thought the major surgery that he had right before joining the Cardinals was on his shoulder.

by steve in georgia on Jul 20, 2007 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That is correct

This from espn

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2942791

"He missed part of 2002 and all of '03 after having arthroscopic surgery on his right shoulder."

by cardsfaninmass on Jul 20, 2007 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you're right, i'm wrong

my source was aaron gleeman's blog, which is generally pretty accurate --- gleeman is a senior writer for Rotoworld and works for NBC sports. here's the post (scroll down to sept 14), which reads: "Eric Gagne and Chris Carpenter underwent Tommy John surgeries in 2000 and 2003, respectively, and came back to win NL Cy Young Awards in 2003 and 2005. In other words, for both the short and long term it's far from a death knell."

the same erroneous information turned up here, in the minneapolis star-tribune:

http://www.startribune.com/blogs/christensen/?cat=2

that's bad information, and i'm sorry for passing it along; terrible mistake.

carp did have elbow surgery, but it was to clean out bone spurs, not to have TJ surgery.

by lboros on Jul 20, 2007 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was also under the impression

that Carp never had a Tommy John before.

He had the dreaded labrum repair on his throwing shoulder, and bone chips removed in his elbow. But I'm 90% sure that he has not had a TJ before.

As far as the kids clamoring for Tommy John - what a load of shit. I'll touch on it later, but there is no way kids should have this mindset.

by silent_bob on Jul 20, 2007 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hey Silent Bob

Remember when you were telling me everything was going to be fine, Carp says he feels no pain, etc. Do you think they rushed him back? Do you think this mis-diagnosed in April? What went wrong in your opinion?

by cardsfaninmass on Jul 20, 2007 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ah....Optimism

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/comments/2007/6/26/85053/4384/58#58

This conversation is rather funny in retrospect....

by cardsfaninmass on Jul 20, 2007 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

well I guess we can only speculate on what we hear/read.

I still don't think there was any funny business regarding his injury reporting, up until yesterday.

by silent_bob on Jul 20, 2007 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

2nd TJ

With a second TJ surjury, does anyone know where the ligament comes from (having already taken one in the first procedure)? Other arm? Leg? Cadaver? I know a small procentage of people don't have the extra arm ligament to begin with.

by WizardofOz on Jul 20, 2007 9:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

See above...

I don't think this is his second TJ.

A rare mistake from our great blogger-in-chief. He is, indeed, human and infallible, like the rest of us.

by cardsfaninmass on Jul 20, 2007 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I mean he is "not infallible"

Man am I fallible or what?

by cardsfaninmass on Jul 20, 2007 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

all of the above

sometimes its cadaver. sometimes its the leg. i guess they can do the other arm as well.

by dmb60614 on Jul 20, 2007 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Palmaris Longus Tendon

bring your thumb to your pinky and bend your wrist toward the palm side. The tendon that sticks out just above your hand is the tendon that they take out for the graft

by silent_bob on Jul 20, 2007 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm sitting here maneuvering my hands around

and I can't figure out which is "the tendon that sticks out just above your hand." Am I dense? I feel like I'm throwing gang signs.

by baw on Jul 20, 2007 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tendon picture and description

Baseball Prospectus has a good picture of what you are trying to do along with an article describing the procedure:

Picture:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~anatomy/assets/surface/wrist-hand/surface3.gif

BP Article:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3486

USA Today article:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2003-07-28-cover-tommy-john_x.htm

by dralexp on Jul 20, 2007 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well..

Now staring out at the future of not only 2007 but 2008 without Chris Carpenter combined with the decline of Edmonds and Rolen, I think it is time this team start thinking long and hard about its future. As Bernie and other have said throughout this season "is this what the end of an era looks like?" And today I would have to say yes.

At least, Walt and Co must admit that 2007 is over. It is not in the short or long term interests of the organization to drop more prospects to add marginal veterans through trade or to stonewall the minor league talent from major league spots.

With the above in mind, the following are things I would like to see happen over the remainder of the season.

Tell Scott Rolen to go home for the season. Let him have the surgery to break up the scar tissue in his shoulder. Let him use the extra off-season time to heal up his body, rest, and strengthen the shoulder.
Tell Jim Edmonds to go home. He is clearly not healthy. et him use the extra off-season time to heal up, rest and strengthen in the hopes that the Cards can get 120 to 130 games out of him next season with production similar to last season.
Do not push Mulder. This team will need him next season with Carp out. Take it slow and steady with him, maybe allowing Mulder if he is really set to make a handful of starts in September at the most to keep the rust away.
Do not push Wainwright; the Cards do not need another 1997 Alan Benes again. So far Wainwright has thrown around 110 innings and is on pace for a bit more than 180 innings. I say let him pitch through the end of August and then call it a season.
Start brining up the minor leaguers to evaluate for the remainder of 2007 what you have in AAA and how it will fit into the 2008 season. We are talking Reyes and Ankiel at the least, but probably some of the AAA arms to audition for reliever rolls.
Try and make some trades at the deadline to add more major or minor league talent. Izzy, Juan E, Percival, and Springer are the most likely of the bunch. People always seem to want decent relievers.
If Izzy goes then make sure to audition folks for the closer roll. After his short reliever stint, I have wondered whether Kip Wells would make a darn good closer.

by JMedwick on Jul 20, 2007 9:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Edmonds is clearly not healthy?

Jed looked like himself last night.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 20, 2007 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

1 for 3 with a single and a K?

Hard to say much from just one night. Besides, given his slow comeback from his shoulder surgery combined with the back issues that benched him for the past month or so is it in the Cards best interest to run Edmonds out there for the next 2.5 months where he can let mind injuries to wear down his declining production or does it make more sense to rest Edmonds more in an attempt to make sure they get a maximumly productive Edmonds in 2008?

by JMedwick on Jul 20, 2007 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Defensively

he made some solid plays and one great diving play going to his left.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 20, 2007 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sure he made some great plays last night

But who knows how much punishment his body can handle right now and still maintain the same level of productivity?

There is a phrase that I learned when I was stationed on a ballistic missle submarine: "Any ship can submerge."

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 20, 2007 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget

the defensive plays he made last night.

by gonzostl on Jul 20, 2007 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fair points.

But if a month of rest helped Edmonds at this stage, I happen to think even more rest might help him. Even if some balance, such as shutting him down in September is reached, Edmonds should not play out the entire rest of the season.

by JMedwick on Jul 20, 2007 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think we should give up on Edmonds

this is the second time he's looked really healthy this year. Yes, he only got a single last night but Pujols and most other veterans got zip. Hits were hard to come by. And his defesnsive plays were impressive.

I also wonder whether he injured himself in a game we played in Houston this year when he had to chase a fly ball up that stupid hill in center field.

He was really coming along up to that point--hitting multiple home runs in the previous week (weeks?) and his swing was looking just beautiful--he had that old Jim Edmonds look. But after that game, he noticably declined.

If he did get injured in Houston, I wouldn't write it off to old age because anyone playing center field could easily get injured there. And if he he's back to form now (crossed fingers), perhaps he has been able to recover from it to give us some solid play.

I'm not denying his body has a lot of mileage on it. But I think we've seen lot of promising glimpses this year and he's made it clear that he feels good and wants to play hard. For now, I'm taking him at his word and both his offence and especially his defense last night seemed to back him up on that.

by nycardfan on Jul 20, 2007 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Edmonds

began the season by playing through his final portion of rehab and his play suffered greatly because of it. You are correct that after a time he did begin to rebound, only to later be injured again.

So here is the issue. Edmonds' physical talents are no long sufficient to allow him to play through the many minor injuries that accrue naturally throughout the season. When Edmonds is still healthy and rested, he plays well. When he is injured and tired he plays less well (or in the case of April, poorly). The question is, playing out the rest of this season and playing next season, which path gives the Cards the best chance of getting the healthy and rested Edmonds. Doesn't seem like letting him play CF everyday (or even jut against righties) the rest of the season is a good way to keep away the aches and pains that reduce his effectiveness. If you want to hold off to setting him down until August, fine. I can understand some logic in giving him time to play for a month or so (through you always have to be worried about injuries) to keep the rust off his swing, but by the middle of August or beginning of September Edmonds should be done for the season.

by JMedwick on Jul 20, 2007 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe platooning rather than being

done would be good for his conditioning. If we truly are cooked he doesn't have to kill himself on every defensive plays. But he has had a problem with maintaining strength and timing and so it may serve his (and our interests) next year to keep him well conditioned (as long as he's not doing that injured). If injured, you're right, sit him down so he can recuperate for next year (but I bet he'd put up a fight!). La Russa might have to hog tie him to keep out of play for that length of time.

by nycardfan on Jul 20, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My response to your post...

In the order you presented them:

Don't tell him to go home if there is a chance that he can produce and help us win ballgames - without furthering injury. The business (the Cardinals) owes its investors (the fans) the most competitve squad it can put on the field. Oh - and we pay to see Rolen, not Brendan Ryan. Kids don't go to one game a year and get happy about seeing Brendan Ryan or someone else play third. If Rolen is only going to hit singles this year, put him in front of Pujols in the order.
See #1. And we pay to see Edmonds, not Ludwig.
Agreed. The ROI on him should be measured next season, not this year.
Disagree. He gives us a shot to win ballgames. He needs to be watched, but he's not 21 like Prior or Woods were. He's older, and I'd assume he's more mature physically.
Bring up Reyes, leave Ankiel until September. Ankiel knows the pressure of the big leagues, and to have him fail for 2.5 mos is a bigger risk overall than to have him fail for September. Not saying he would fail, but he's doesn't have the best psychological track record.
Agree, but there is nothing we can trade where the ROI is for next year. Is the cost of Izzy next season worth not having a decent closer for two years - which is what it will take to find one in my opinion. Fine for trading for players who will be major league ready in 09, but I don't think we'll get anything for those guys who will give us above average production in 08. But I may be wrong.
Agree there should be a "competition" if Izzy goes, but after Percival - proven - gets first crack. Wells, even with his last performance, is done in StL at the end of this year. He's just not very good, and to hope that he returns to 2002-2003 form...well, that was 5 years ago.

I think we need to address the CF issue for FY08 now, and look for a SS if available. We're screwed with Kennedy at 2nd, and that's ok - 8 of 9 isn't bad. The outfield shapes up nicely next year if we address CF.

In closing, they need to think of the fans who support them and the business needs to put the best possible product on the field at all times. Knowledgeable fans, like the ones on this board (although we disagree with each other) will understand that we can't win them all, and will see that they are trying to win with average talent.

And god, what I wouldn't give for a Cardinal pitcher to plunk somebody on purpose - maybe a good old fashioned brawl would put some life into them. Sound horrible I know, but the lack of energy is disappointing. But maybe that's my personality.

Good pitching will beat good hitting any time, and vice versa. ~Bob Veale, 1966

by bukowski on Jul 20, 2007 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

See...

All fair points. My only real response is that if the Cards are truly thinking of the fans, then they should be considering what is best for this season and future seasons.

Running up extra miles on Wainwright's arm to win a few meaningless games in September isn't thinking of the fans. Same goes for giving injury prone vets playing time. Seems like that logic is just robbing Peter (the hope for 2008) to pay for Paul (a marginally less bad 2007).

And the Cards have Edmonds under contract for 2008. The CF would be best addressed by using a healthy Edmonds. If you think Edmond's isn't the answer in 2008 in CF (and I wouldn't argue that Edmonds in LF or RF might be a better idea given his age) then shouldn't we use as much time as possible this season to evaluate the in-house CF talent, such as Ankiel? It was around this time last year that the Duncan experiment began. I would rather get 2.5 months to evaluate Ankiel in the majors as a CF than just 1 month of battling for playing time with Edmonds.

by JMedwick on Jul 20, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not saying

we should try and rack up "meaningless wins" (see below) or put extra strain on Wainwright. Do what makes sense - and I don't think shutting him down makes sense. If that was the case, why don't we call up all of Memphis and send all the major leaguers home right now?

We need to play baseball. With the best team we can put on the field every day. And if the best team we put on the field every day includes injury prone vets, so be it.

And besides - I said before - fans (the ones who cough up $200+ to go to one game a year and buy all the sweatshirts and hats and bumper stickers) deserve to see Rolen and Edmonds in the lineup. Seeing Rick Ankiel in CF would be nice - but I think JED gives us a better chance to win a game.

Yes, we're not going to the WS. But dammit, I want to see the team play like they want to win each game. And sending Scotty or JED home for the year isn't doing that in my opinion, and pitching Wainwright is.

Shall we respectfully agree to disagree? however, this may make an interesting diary.

Good pitching will beat good hitting any time, and vice versa. ~Bob Veale, 1966

by bukowski on Jul 20, 2007 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

As a fan

I enjoy watching the young kids play. If Rolen and Jimmy get every 3rd day off I am fine with that.

I find it more enjoyable to watch Reyes because of what might become rather than Maroth because I already know what he is.

I would rather see Ryan than Miles. Neither is a good hitter but at least one can make good defensive playes.

I think we know what the fans want in terms of Juan...

by DriverZn on Jul 20, 2007 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with JMed on this one.

You're proposing the Cards "think of the fans" by instituting a short-term chase for a few extra wins in 2007? The X-factor here is HONESTY. If the ownership would publicly state what most fans can see -- that the great mid-2000s Cardinal teams are gone forever -- and that it is time to change direction, and that that change will take time and may produce some ugly baseball in the short term, most fans would appreciate it. Would attendance drop? Probably. The team would do well to find some tangible ways to reward fans for their patience ... some creative ticket-price cuts, etc. But keeping up a facade that this is a playoff team if only our guys heal up, is only going to kick the inevitable implosion down the road aways, and will do more to erode fans' confidence than some blunt talk right now. What makes this tricky is that there are few obvious bold moves that can be made right now. They could trade Izzy, of course, but perhaps not receive a lot for him. So patience will definitely be required. I only hope the team gets out in front of the "patience train" before it runs over them.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jul 20, 2007 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

let's not forget

about Amaury Marti...he could be brought up and the Cards could see what they have in him. A dark Horse if you will.

by mdarshan on Jul 20, 2007 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thankfully, the team isn't quite this quick...

...to give up. The equivalent of this mentality would be quitting any game that they're down by 2 runs in the 5th inning. Pull all the starters, fire everyone who played badly, etc. Gotta wait 'til at least the end of July. As frustrating as the season has been, I don't understand this give-up, blow-up-everything mentality. And you cannot expect competitive pro athletes and coaches to think that way.

by willievinceterry on Jul 20, 2007 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can't see La Russa giving up

He lives for competition and I think he'll fight for the highest position possible the whole season; he glorifies players who don't give up no matter the adversity, even if they don't win. He's old school that way--competing hard with what you have is what he really admires.

TLR speaks to this in today's P-D: "(Breaking even) was OK to survive to the All-Star break. But at some point the idea is to get into August and September with a chance to win.... And you've got to put together some wins. But if we're playing as hard as we can and as good as we can, and that's what it is ... if that's as good as it can be, that's winning for us. What we can't do is back off."

It doesn't sound like he's going to give up (unless he's just playing cheerleader here.)

by nycardfan on Jul 20, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's it - right there.

I'm not a LaRussa fan. But that quote sums up the way we need to finish the season.

"But if we're playing as hard as we can and as good as we can, and that's what it is ... if that's as good as it can be, that's winning for us. What we can't do is back off."

Telling Scotty and JED to go home is backing off.

Good pitching will beat good hitting any time, and vice versa. ~Bob Veale, 1966

by bukowski on Jul 20, 2007 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks, lboros

for finding the figures to back what has been apparent to many of us all year: terrible outfield defense. Traditional defensive statistics often don't paint an accurate picture-for instance fielding percentage. Duncan's need to position himself almost on the warning track no matter who's at bat or the situation costs the pitcher numerous base hits which should be outs and a higher ERA. For a staff which is shaky at best, this is deadly. If the organization is going to embrace a "pitch to contact" philosophy, then Walt needs to address defense in any move he makes.
The other aggravation today's post addresses is Paletta. In today's PD Paletta is
stated to have judged Carpenter's elbow tendon to be fine when he removed the bone chips. A month later it's TJ surgery. Attention, Mr. DeWitt: is it good business to allow the availability of millions of dollars of your assets
to be in this man's hands? The list of incorrect initial diagnoses or procedures delayed includes (in part): Rolen, Edmonds, Encarnacion, Spiezio, Eckstein, Mulder,and Carpenter. How many games in the standings is that?
Sorry to vent, but these are ongoing frustrations for me.

by vinniefromjersey on Jul 20, 2007 9:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

incorrect diagnosis or delayed procedures....

I've been thinking about something our resident medical advisor (Bob) said in a previous post. To paraphrase, he didn't see how they didn't see the ligament sticking out like a sore thumb when they went in to clean out the bone spurs in the elbow. And that's why he thought it wouldn't be Tommy John surgery.

But what if they did, and just didn't mention it - to the press, to the fans... even to Carp himself? At least for a while? Until it became apparent that there was no other option left and that's what it had to be?

Then it becomes an issue not of incorrect diagnosis (because they've already seen it), but of withholding information in a doctor/patient relationship. I'm sure the easy way out would be to say they told Carp what they found, but let's try and see if we can work around it... but in the sports world, I wonder how much the doctor actually tells the players, especially when you're riding the fence on declaring the season over.

Duncan 4 Cleanup

by SmashedAtoms on Jul 20, 2007 10:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I had jokingly made comments about

Walt Jocketty being in the witness protection program, seriously, what's up with him having no comment.

by jillsinmo on Jul 20, 2007 10:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Not true....

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070719&content_id=2097248&vkey=news_ stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl

"You just want to make sure before you do something like this that you look at every possibility of whether he can be able to pitch without having surgery, because of the long rehab," general manager Walt Jocketty said on Thursday night. "And obviously there was nothing [else] that could be done. I think we wanted to make sure that we got the info from all the other doctors."

by cardsfaninmass on Jul 20, 2007 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My bad...I didn't

see that one. I did read one article that said he was unavailable to comment......

by jillsinmo on Jul 20, 2007 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Paletta

Paletta was on the postgame coverage on 550 last night. The announcers (John Hadley and Mike Claiborne, I believe) went to great lengths, and I mean GREAT LENGTHS, to cover for, explain away and generally reinforce that Paletta was doing the best darn job he could, and no one could have done better or different. They even went back to the Rolen situation and exonerated Paletta on that one, too, as well as Mulder. I guess that's what happens when you work for the organization you're supposed to be covering.

Paletta's explanation was that Carp's ligament was fine a few months ago, or at least had no acute injury. And still, he has no acute injury, but rather "microfractures" of the tendon. According to Paletta, the same docs (Andrews, Altchek at al) evaluated Carp back in April, and none saw any need for TJ surgery then, either.

by blove121 on Jul 20, 2007 10:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

That would be significant

- if those doctors also evaluated him back then.

by sdrone on Jul 20, 2007 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If I have time

I'll elaborate later on elbow biomechanics and why a "stretched ligament " or "microtears" could be a contributing factor to the bone spurs and "impingement" in the elbow.

My thoughts are that all the surgeons came to a conclusion that tightening up the ligament (TJS) will decrease the stresses on the elbow joint itself, thus relieving the impingement symptoms.

by silent_bob on Jul 20, 2007 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Carps Extension

was to my best logic based on a chance to use his Cy Young to proove he had more than fully returned from previous injury, and the reason may well have been to rewrite his insurance policy in more favorable terms.

While we now get all the salary and bonus terms of contracts, we never see the insurance terms. Here's to hoping the extension was actually a shrewd move that saves the club money.

Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Jul 20, 2007 10:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Insurance

You've got a very good point.

Total dollars on a contract does not necessarily mean the amount of cash that goes out of the club's pocket. I doubt the general public (aka fans) will ever know the true amount paid.

But on the other hand, a lot of times when we look at team salary levels, we exclude deferred payments. So I'm willing to guess that they may offset each other.

Wouldn't you like to be Mark Cuban and get an inside look at a team's real books -- even if it were the Cubs? There's been some good books (Billions & Baseball, Zimbalst 1994)in the past on this, but, I believe nothing overly current.

by RAholt on Jul 20, 2007 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Everyone needs to read the mlb.com article on Carp

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070719&content_id=2097248&vkey=news_ stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl

It dispels two myths in today's post.

This is not Carp's second TJ (his 2002 surgery was on his shoulder). "He's never had ligament replacement.."
Walt was apparently returning some reporters calls - Leach. Just not post-dispatch reporters.

by cardsfaninmass on Jul 20, 2007 10:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i finally have someone to blame for this season

it's azruavatar! he jinxed the season by speculating that he could have another catastrophic injury. well damn, it happened. damn you for being smart, azruavatar.

but seriously, it seems more of us would have been asking the same questions as az and joe sheehan.

VEB Fantasy Football League!

by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 20, 2007 10:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

VEB FFL

I'd put this in the diary but the comments are closed, but I'd play if you have openings.

by Just Rope Ball on Jul 20, 2007 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

invite sent

nice to have you on board.

VEB Fantasy Football League!

by stlcardinalsfang on Jul 20, 2007 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Throw one my way, too

I don't follow football as closely, but I'm down if there are openings.

.500 here we come...

by effin fisk on Jul 20, 2007 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's something the Cards are going to have

avoid doing-turning Carpenter/Mulder into our version of Prior/Wood--how much time and heartbreak did the Cubs spend waiting for those two to be healthy. Prior may still rebound, he's still a young man, but if Wood ever makes it back it will be in a diminished role. They have got think long and hard about their next moves.....

by jillsinmo on Jul 20, 2007 10:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

:Prior and Wood

did not win a Cy Young. Did not slap the Tigers around in a World Series game. Have never won 20 games. Almost haven't pitched 200 innings in multiple years (Wood did it in 2)

Carp, on the other hand, owns ZERO towels!

by sdrone on Jul 20, 2007 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

so prior and wood didn't

have the same success. i don't think that's quite the point the poster was making. the point is that the club needs not plan on having these guys in the near future. plan on not having them, then if they come back it's a bonus.

by ortic jones on Jul 20, 2007 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are correct....

my point is they were such promising pitchers and they kept planning to build their rotation around them every year, and it was not to be. I was not saying they were as good as Carp; clearly without the injuries, they were both very promising pitchers, and the Cubs went into each season counting on them.....

by jillsinmo on Jul 20, 2007 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But, again,

we DID build our rotation around Carp. And we won a series. Carp's TJ surgery/other issues are AFTER we've had a large modicum of success.

by sdrone on Jul 20, 2007 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am strictly referring to counting on Mulder/Carp

on their return.....they may not be the same kind of pitchers that they once were.....

by jillsinmo on Jul 20, 2007 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Carp's extension

I was a fan initially and I read Joe Sheehan's, and I think Will Carroll's as well, criticism of it. azruavatar was certainly right, in hindsight. It made no sense to extend him while he was still under our control for 2 years.

I can't help but wonder if Carp's extension wasn't a way of appeasing the fans who were restless about the lack of activity on the pitching front in the offseason. They want a pitcher -- we'll lock one up. I'm not saying that that is the reason it was done -- they were probably thinking of doing it anyway and trying to figure out when would be the right time to do it. Maybe they thought -- we'll do it now, we're going to do it anyway so let's do it now and the fans will fall in line -- and we did.

by chuckb on Jul 20, 2007 11:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Reyes coming back?

from today's PD:
"La Russa said it is possible Anthony Reyes would be recalled from Memphis to handle one of the three games [this weekend]."

by redrey on Jul 20, 2007 11:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

there's a diary about that

posted by HL, here

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 20, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pathetic Paletta

I've been as frustrated as anyone with Paletta's apparent incompetence, but haven't yet expressed those frustrations on this site --- I'm no doctor, and I hesitate to second-guess people who (unlike me) have all the knowledge of the sitation.

Well, I can't hold back anymore -- I'm pissed. VinniefromJersey has pretty much expressed everything I'm thinking in his post above. Paletta claims the ligament was fine when he removed the bone spurs in May. Let's assume that's correct (an iffy assumption -- he might've just missed the ligament damage, in which case he should be canned immediately). If the ligament was OK when the spurs were removed, then what happened in the interim that's requiring Carp to have TJ surgery now? Did the club (or Carp himself?) push his rehab too fast, b/c they were so desperate for him to salvage this mediocre season?

In that case, my frustration extends beyond Paletta to the club itself, for turning a relatively short-term problem (the bone spurs) into a significant injury that might end Carp's career.

I recognize that in our disappointment and frustration over this news, it's easy to look for a scapegoat to blame --- perhaps Paletta is not to blame; maybe it's just bad luck and there's no one and nothing to blame but Carp's balky elbow. But given the recent history of Paletta and the club w/misdiagnosing injuries or delaying needed procedures, it's tough not to wonder what the hell this guy's still doing with the organization.

What scares me now is that Paletta's going to perform the TJ surgery!

by DCRedbird on Jul 20, 2007 11:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It's possible

that he tore the ligament doing his rehab. Why does that have to mean that he was pushed too quickly? I agree that there are some legitimate questions about the Cards' medical staff, but we have no reason to believe that they botched this one.

by chuckb on Jul 20, 2007 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Awfully strong language

and assertions by someone who does not seem to have the medical knowledge to back them up.

I disagree completely with you.

by silent_bob on Jul 20, 2007 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I read this morning that the ligament

is not torn but is stressed with little surface fractures (it did speak to the severity of these fissures). They said the doctors did see this before his last procedure but there was no consensus at that point that the ligament needed to be replaced so they decided to address the bone spurs alone in hopes that he could rehab more quickly.

But it does raise a fear in my mind. They thought they could fix the problem with removing the bone spurs--didn't work. Now they are turning to TJ surgery in hopes of finding an answer. But with it not being torn, are we any more assured that this is what's causing the swelling? There still is no consensus among the doctors that Carp needs to be operated on now, just that he would eventually need to have the tendon replaced. I hope this isn't another big delay. Perhaps it's just an arthritic problem that could be addressed in another way. I'm sure they've explored this, but the whole situation seems murky and confusing.

(If there's been an update since this morning on his condition and you have new info, then sorry for the long post above. I haven't checked news updates since early this morning.)

by nycardfan on Jul 20, 2007 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's the link where I came across the

above information on the ligament not being torn:

www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=470077&sid=238c50588a5fe6a26b461b0ac918b520

It's not from a p-d reporter but from a second-hand source.

by nycardfan on Jul 20, 2007 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Practicing medicine is more art than science.

Although I'm sure that we would all like to think that medicine is an exact science, the truth is that treatment decisions made by physicians and surgeons are really educated guesses. Sometimes, they are right and sometimes you have to move on to the next possibility.

"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." Dizzy Dean

by mel on Jul 20, 2007 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

In the immortal words of Charlie Brown...

AAUUUGH!!!

At least it appears from the above links that this will be Carp's first TJ. I admittedely haven't followed all other cases closely, but I thought TJ surgery was normally preceeded by a "blowout" of the ligament. I've never heard of "microfracture" in a ligament. Ah well, if it's true that Dr. Andrews examined Carp in April and saw no need for TJ then, I suppose Paletta is off the hook.

by ArkansasTravs on Jul 20, 2007 11:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Injury Chat with Will Carroll on ESPN.com

Will Carroll is holding a chat on Injuries on ESPN.com under fantasy baseball. Here is how he views Carp's injury:

Please Will, answer a question for all us depressed Cardinals. How could it take over three month for the Cards medical staff to find out Carpenter needed Tommy John surgery.

Will Carroll: (11:13 AM ET ) Because three months ago he didn't need it. Let's end this idea that the torn ligament was "missed" -- it tore during the rehab, which is unfortunate. It was also not a complete tear, which is why so many doctors were consulted.

by WizardofOz on Jul 20, 2007 11:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Here is the link

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=16544

by WizardofOz on Jul 20, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

as much as I dislike Paletta for past

perceived mishandlings, I hope this puts to rest the idea that he completely biffed on the ligament.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 20, 2007 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK, I stand corrected

I apologize for going off on Paletta earlier ... just frustrated, I guess.

by DCRedbird on Jul 20, 2007 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wasn't Will Carroll

the one who stated that sometimes bone spurs can protect the ligament? Maybe in Carp's case they were giving protection and as soon as they were removed, it let out.

by Carps on Jul 20, 2007 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Arnoldi Cruz

Who is this guy?

He's currently rocketing through our farm system, 4 different levels since we drafted him in June, hasn't spent more than 7 games at any level.

His numbers are insane:

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Cruz%252C%2520A%2520%25203B&pos=&s id=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=488810

Reminds me a little of Pujols, I wonder what his numbers were like in Junior College.

by boilertiger on Jul 20, 2007 11:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It says he plays 3B

is that his natural position, or can he play SS?

I have a feeling that once Rolen has the scar tissue removed, he'll be the type of player we expect him to be.

We will have a hole at SS.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 20, 2007 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

From your keyboard to God's monitor

on Rolen....

by BTown Birds fan on Jul 20, 2007 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Arnoldi (Tony) Cruz

We went to Cruz's second Swing game, and I was astounded at how the ball jumps from his bat. Over the years, I've noticed only a few players who have that "jump" at this level....he isn't as big as Pujols, way too early to get too excited, but what a start.

by Iowa on Jul 20, 2007 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So what is next guy?

Sounds like he's ready for another jump...

It would be Palm Beach and then Springfield right?

I don't want to get to excited, but he's deffinitely something crazy.

by boilertiger on Jul 20, 2007 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Looks like he has

Three more teams to complete the minor league circuit and have one of the busiest stat lines ever for a just-drafted player. (Out of curiosity, I wonder who holds the record for most clubs played for in a single season, both for multiple franchises and for a single franchise.)

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jul 20, 2007 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He is 0 for 3 in Day games

so he isn't perfect:-)

But it does make you wonder.

What are they seeing at each level that makes the organization promote him so fast? He was just drafted...so it's not like he's been here long. I'm not saying it's good or bad I just wonder what it is.

by Harknights on Jul 20, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

How is Arnis glove?

Any chance he can field as well as he hits? The orginization seems to favor well rounded players. Maybe that is why he is flying through the system.

The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Jul 20, 2007 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

To Arnoldi Cruz!

"Cruz's family crest is a picture of a barracuda eating Neil Armstrong."
"His poop is considered currency in Argentina."
"I once saw him scissor-kick Angela Lansbury."
"Did I ever tell you about the time Cruz took me out to go get a drink with him? We go off looking for a bar and we can't find one. Finally Cruz takes me to a vacant lot and says, 'Here we are.' We sat there for a year and a half -- until sure enough, someone constructs a bar around us. Well, the day they opened we ordered a shot, drank it, and then burned the place to the ground. Cruz yelled over the roar of the flames, 'Always leave things the way you found 'em!'"
"He once punched a hole in a cow just to see who was coming up the road."
"He drives an ice cream truck covered in human skulls."
"If you drop a phonograph needle on Cruz's nipple, it plays the Beach Boys' Pet Sounds."
"Did I ever tell you about the time he taught his son how to drive? He did it by entering him in the Indy 500. The kid wrecked and died. Cruz said it would've happened sometime."
"He killed Wolfman Jack with a trident."
"He sleeps eight hours a night! Well, he was pretty normal when it came to that."

To Arnoldi Cruz!

by mikedallas23 on Jul 20, 2007 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Two outs?

Last night, Maroth gave up all the runs (sans diaz HR) with two outs? That's either a terrible statistical anomaly, or just a complete mental breakdown by the battery when they thought they were safe...

by duncansarmy on Jul 20, 2007 12:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Couple things

The real reason this sucks is that this team had a chance (albeit a smaller one due to the jerking around of Anthony Reyes) to be pretty good next year. That chance is now significantly smaller because of Carp.

But like it's been said, there's no reason to think he can't come back and be successful. John Smoltz, Mariano Rivera, heck even Matt Morris all had the procedure and were extremely successful after it.

It's just depressing knowing that I'm not gonna be able to see Carp carving up some helpless hitters for another calendar year, at least.

Also, to quickly elaborate on what lboros said about young pitchers wanting TJS. It's not, actually, "pure bunk" that some pitchers throw harder after TJS. Most of the time, there isn't one pitch that "pops" the ligament. (SilentBob, feel free to call me a moron here, this is my understanding as a pitcher that has had elbow problems in the past). It's kind of a gradual degradation over time, so for most pitchers, they've been pitching with a less-than-100% UCL for some time. So yeah, a new, 100% healthy ligament will allow the arm to function better and throw harder. BUT, an even bigger cause of increased velocity is the intense rehab each patient goes through. Young pitchers are mistaken to think that the new ligament will allow them to automatically throw 5 mph harder. No, they could get the same gains if they did the same exercises as religiously as Tommy John patients do.

So it's not impossible for a pitcher to throw harder after TJS. But the surgery is by no means a magic bullet. It's a year or more of intense, painful, boring rehab that leads to increased velocity.

by Jhusk on Jul 20, 2007 12:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Under the Knife at BP free today

will carroll talks carpenter, rolen, and mulder, among others.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6477

I believe in the Sports Guy rule. Any "complaining" in this post is actually happy, cheerful "constructive criticism."

by nycbirdo on Jul 20, 2007 1:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Off to Atlanta

Going to the game on Saturday night. Look for me on the 1st base side, in the middle level. I'll be the one in Cardinal red, ha! I think the pitching matchup is Looper vs. Buddy Carlyle, should be better than Hudson vs. Maroth anyway. I'll have my camera, if I find anything interesting I'll upload a pic or two for everyone. Cheers.

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jul 20, 2007 1:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Chuck James

I don't know if this is common knowledge, but some of you might be impressed with this article about Chuck James, the starter for the Braves tonight, discussing his off-season workout regimen.

by liam on Jul 20, 2007 1:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i'm sorry

but if i get snakebit, i don't give a damn how much later it is, i am going to a doctor

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Jul 20, 2007 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

paletta did comment on 550 after the game

for 30 minutes.

by gocardz on Jul 20, 2007 1:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Congratulations to Dave Duncan

Shelley's been called up to the Yankees. He could make his major league debut tonight.

He's been hitting pretty well at AAA this year.

by liam on Jul 20, 2007 1:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

That's awesome

n/t

by sdrone on Jul 20, 2007 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kyle Russell is going back to Texas...

because the Cardinals are too cheap to pony up the signing money for him.

http://www.news8austin.com/content/sports/?ArID=188319&SecID=5

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jul 20, 2007 2:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Not so fast

There's some discussion at Future Redbirds about this, dealing with MLB pressure to stick to their signing bonus recommendations. The Cardinals hands are tied for now as to what they can offer their picks. Let's wait and see before condemning the front office here.

by liam on Jul 20, 2007 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

There is a lot of pressure from MLB

but the Cardinals' hands aren't tied. They can offer whatever they want. I would think that the pressure that MLB applies has to be greater than Bud Selig's scorn but I'm not sure what it is b/c few teams offer money outside of the slot. But it can, and does, happen.

by chuckb on Jul 20, 2007 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

stadium deals, grievances

trades...

anything that goes through the front office is what MLB uses to put the squeeze on teams discreetly

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 20, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Better to wait

Until it does happen—some other team greatly exceeds slot—before sticking our own necks out first.

Stories like this, where the kids are expressing frustration, probably help our position out more than anything.

Between slotting and the new CBA, there might be a whole lot of teams that don't sign their #1's this year and end up drafting twice in the first round next year. (And three times in 2009, four times in 2010... This could get messy.)

by liam on Jul 20, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

marti

does anyone have any idea what the organization plans for marti? he appears to be doing well in the mexican league (futureredbirds.com, p.1) :p

by longhornscardinals on Jul 20, 2007 2:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i was just thinking about him today

was wondering who was thatguy that all the hype was around last yr, hadnt heard much about him this yr

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Jul 20, 2007 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Everything you need to know

about Cazanas is here.

by liam on Jul 20, 2007 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So at what point does the

Cards brass admit they are done forthe year and actually make trades? I still think they have very little that people might want.

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Jul 20, 2007 2:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I wish we hadn't re-signed Franklin...

I mean, I absolutely love how good he has been for us this year, but his value would be huge right now if we had instead tried to trade him and not re-sign him. I think Izzy has quite a bit of value, and we MAY be able to get something mediocre for Juan.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jul 20, 2007 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

They won't make trades

unless it involves Juan or RH relief pitching.

Izzy, Rolen, Edmonds, Kennedy, Eckstein are staying put.

They should be tar'd and feather'd if they traded Duncan, Pujols, Molina, Wainwright, Ryan.

They are going to stand pat, and more than likely only make marginal trades after these next 13 games.

Stranger things have happened. going 2-1 against Atlanta and ripping off an improbable 7 game winning streak against the Cubs/Brewers with Edmonds/Rolen/Pujols/Duncan all in the same lineup would create a false sense of 'being in it'.

The Cardinals will more than likely stand where they do right now, maybe a little worse or better this time 2 weeks from now.

However, they have sitting before them the chance to make up 3 games on the Cubs (6 games behind) and 4 games on the Brewers (9 games behind).

They won't give up until then. There 'last stand' is the 3 against the Cubs, 4 against the Brewers, 3 against the Pirates, 3 against the Nats.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 20, 2007 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know

about putting Ryan in the same sentence as Pujols.

As for Eck. I can't help but wonder what kind of draft pick we would get if he left via free agency. Would Eck get "credit" for last year in his rating for this off season. I would think he would be a type A player and I don't think we could get that much for him now...hell Billy Beane might try to trade for him just so he could get the draft pick.

by Harknights on Jul 20, 2007 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

One regret

It's a shame those midseason UZR numbers came out when they did. Despite what some folks on here have claimed, many of us have repeatedly asserted that Juan's defense is below-average at best, and awful at worst.

With them officially ranking "Minus Juan" 2nd to last defensively among the league's RF's, looks like UZR is now of the same opinion. [Note: lboros, you apparently missed Griffey Jr on the list. He's the worst...by a lot, actually.]

It's too bad we couldn't swing a trade for him before these numbers came out and reinforced what many of us who watch every game already knew. We'll be lucky to get a box of baseballs and a tub of Rubbing Mud for him now...

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jul 20, 2007 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have to concur..

Hardcore. Why jump the gun right now. I am with those that think this season is lost, but with those 7 upcoming games we could find reason to be buyers. We'd have to win at least five and probably six of them, but...

by cardzfanbub on Jul 20, 2007 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So Im excited that they are playing ATL

that i might get to see a game right...nope really dumb movies like MIghty joe young,not on tonight or tommorrow either...maybe just maybe sunday?

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Jul 20, 2007 2:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hah, I was thinking the same thing last night

as I browsed the guide and thought the Cards were playing Atlanta last night.

by sdrone on Jul 20, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

none of these games are on TBS

insert sad face here.

by willievinceterry on Jul 20, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ESPN is carrying

the Sunday game I believe. I saw the end of the Braves-Reds game Wednesday night and was similarly disappointed when they said their next telecast would be Monday. I expected to see a couple games.

by vinniefromjersey on Jul 20, 2007 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ya living on the

west coast my wife has asked months in advance..when do they play ATL..and no games..but tonight we get without a paddle...yay..at least show a good movie maybe Gladiator or something...tommorrow same crap mixed with chronicles of riddick and road trip..then another night of without a paddle...

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Jul 20, 2007 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

season over

well it's been fun. heh, yeah right. time to play spoiler. lets hope the Cards bring the heat next week agains the brew crew&the flubs.

you know, i could take it if the reds were good, or the pirates were good. and i'm not that upset that the brew crew is playing well this season. but it's absolutly killing me to see the flubs have some success while us Cardinals suffer through such a horrid season. especially after the joy of last fall.

baseball is a cruel, cruel game sometimes.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jul 20, 2007 4:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

More trade rumors

from MLB.com "The Mariners are on the lookout for a quality starting pitcher and might be willing to part with one of the organization's top prospects -- perhaps outfielder Adam Jones, but preferably outfielder Jeremy Reed or catcher Rob Johnson or Jeff Clement, along with a young pitcher or two."

I wonder if Looper ranks anywhere on the "quality" scale. Obviously we couldn't get Adam Jones, but there might be a shot at Jeremy Reed or one of the "young pitcher or two"s. Considering all I want to do is deal him so that we can save some money, I honestly wouldn't care what we got in return. I'd be perfectly happy with any of those options. I always liked Reed, but feel he never really got a chance in Seattle.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 20, 2007 4:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

jeremy reed is more of a 4th outfielder type

Rick Ankiel is a better player than he is right now.

Future Redbirds

by azruavatar on Jul 20, 2007 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh, I know

I'm not saying he'll be our saviour or anything, but if it's a bag of balls or Jeremy Reed, I'll take Jeremy Reed. But definitely out of the quote I'd prefer the "young arms." We have enough Jeremy Reeds in our system.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 20, 2007 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good lord, trade Looper to save money?

Who the heck are we gonna have in the rotation that can pitch 5 innings and give up less than, say, 8 runs?

by sdrone on Jul 20, 2007 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The best ERA on the staff

belongs to Speezio. If each of the bench players could go one time through the order, we could have them laughing too hard to take good cuts.

Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Jul 20, 2007 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well

if he's what you want to spend $5mil on next year, then knock yourself out, but I'd rather have that money freed up with the tight budget that we'll have.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jul 20, 2007 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs