Dyar Miller on A. Reyes

by jjray on Jul 13, 2007 3:05 PM EDT

Interesting interview of Dyar Miller about A. Reyes on local radio here in STL (590 the fan). Excuse if someone has already posted. They also touched on Dan Haren. Hopefully not mischaracterizing Dyar's comments but here are a few of them:

"We're a two seam sinker ball organization."

"Would be hard to get Anthony to develop sinker because of his arm action. But Anthony can be effective throwing his four seamer down in the zone."

"Keisler has developed a sinker in Memphis and is winning with it."

http://www.kfns.com/vdDynamic/AudioBits/2-AudioBit3355.mp3

The Keisler comment scares me. Would they move Keisler ahead of Reyes on the AAAA depth chart because he can throw a sinker? Wouldn't surprise me.

Tweet Comment 31 comments | 0 recs |

Do you like this story?

Comments

I would be willing to wager...

Since they have put so much time into Reyes, that if he can consistently use his 4-seamer DOWN in the zone and get quick ground ball outs AND UP in the zone to get strikeouts (not fly balls/home runs) that he will be back on the fast track WELL ahead of Keisler.

stlfan

by stlfan on Jul 13, 2007 3:43 PM EDT reply actions

We're a two seam sinker ball organization"

Thank goodness.....I was afraid they were going to go out and get Justin Verlander or Johann Santana. That comment just strikes me as absurd. If the organization wants all pitchers to throw everything the same they should go draft a pitching machine.

by jillsinmo on Jul 13, 2007 6:37 PM EDT reply actions

You realize

Johan keeps the ball down like no other, right?

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 14, 2007 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions

JOHAN Santana?

I thought he was the guy that threw thigh-high changeups and letter high 89 mph fastballs?

Are we talking about two different guys?

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 14, 2007 3:11 AM EDT up reply actions

I was thinking those changeups

were more knee-ish than thighs. Although, really, I don;t know what the differnce is. It's one awesome pitch.

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 14, 2007 3:22 AM EDT up reply actions

Oh,

Sliders are normally down, too. he does keep his fastball up, but it's generally in the 92-ish range.

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 14, 2007 3:27 AM EDT up reply actions

I was being sarcastic

Johan is knee-high, and he is ridiculous.

I was describing Anthony Reyes. Of which, it is painfully obvious we have to call him back up. Kip Wells CANNOT be allowed to start another game. I don't care if Reyes loses 22 games, I can't stand the sight of Wells at this point.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jul 14, 2007 3:27 AM EDT up reply actions

My sarcasm detector got a flat this morning.

My apologies.

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 14, 2007 3:28 AM EDT up reply actions

I know Johann pitches all over the

zone...he's up, down, and on the corners. I was just pointing out that he does not have a two seam sinking fastball. I think he just might be the best pitcher in baseball for 3 years running....this idea that all pitchers must throw a sinker to be effective is just wrong. I'm not saying they shouldn't be low in the zone, just that everyone can't throw a sinker. Talk to someone who pitches, they'll tell you...

by jillsinmo on Jul 14, 2007 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions

As someone

who pitched, I realize that. I also realize 89 mph belt high fastballs get creamed (well, from experience I only know that 80 mph belt high fastballs get creamed, but whatevers). He needs to 1) Get a third pitch besides his slurvey-ish thing, and 2) pitch down in the zone w/ his fastball more. Come up every now and then to change levels, but he can't (and hasn't) gotten by keeping it up. He is a work in progress.

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 14, 2007 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Actually, my posts were not specific to Reyes;

they were about the idea that "we are a two-seam sinker organization"-there are an awful lot of pitchers who are quite good who don't or can't throw it. I don't want the organization to pass on someone like that. I named Verlander and Santana as two who don't pitch with it and have been quite successful.

by jillsinmo on Jul 14, 2007 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions

By now

I am more pissed at his coaches at the little league, pony league, high school, college, minor league levels than I am at Tony and Dave. The more pitches someone can throw the better; and teaching someone who can throw a four seam to throw a two seam isn't hard; just change the f$%^ing grip! We learned it when we were twelve! I don't get how he never learned it. Teaching a sinker, yeah that's different, but a two seam is the exact same pitch, just w/ a different grip.

My beef w/ dave and tony is not telling him he should throw it until he was competing for a big league spot; that is total bullshit and set his development back two/three years.

However, I'm amazed he neither knew how to throw one nor thought he needed one until he was 24 years old. Way back when when I pitched, I was so enamored w/ the science of it that I learned how to throw nearly every pitch (w/ the exceptions being a knuckler, slider, and semi-ironically enough, a sinker) just for the damn fun of it. I would fall asleep gripping a baseball.

I can't believe a guy, w/ that kind of talent would never learn to throw a fourth pitch. Of course, I never had that kind of talent, so what the hell do I know?

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 15, 2007 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions

Randy Johnson only has 2

Should he have been left in the minors?

What about Ryan?
Santana?

Heck, Rivera only seems to have one... He did ok.

by DriverZn on Jul 15, 2007 5:21 AM EDT up reply actions

when reyes

can throw a fastball 100 mph or a slider at 90 mph like Johnson, or have the pinpoint command of Santana, or the nasty cutter of Rivera, then that argument will hold water. (I assume you mean B.J. Ryan? If you do, I do not know what he throws, but, as with Rivera, a reliever pitches much differently than a starter, so types of pitches is not a fair comparison.) I am not saying Reyes should be in Memphis, I think he should be starting on the big league club as well. I just don't think many arguments for or against him are real fair.

"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." ~Rogers Hornsby

by spiderman15 on Jul 15, 2007 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions

You mean like the best changeup in the NL

Because thats where his rated in 06...

The problem is the sinker makes the changeup less effective because the movement is more similar.

by DriverZn on Jul 15, 2007 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions

My son pitches DivII

and he has tried since he was 15 to throw a sinker; he's 20 now and he still can't--and when he works on it for awhile, all of sudden his curve will stop breaking. Now, he's not pro but the folks that have tried to teach him are--and they have finally stopped. My son has worked harder on learning to pitch than anyone I've ever seen---and I'm from a long line of top flight amateur and a couple of pro baseball players--and he can't throw it. So, I guess that makes my son worthless as a pitcher....you say you were a pitcher, could you learn every pitch and throw it for a strike? In a game? If you can, you should not be sitting behing the keyboard......

by jillsinmo on Jul 15, 2007 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions

and I'm only telling you this, mr.alxfritz,

because you always respond to me as if I don't know anything......I want you to know I am more than a casual fan......

by jillsinmo on Jul 15, 2007 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions

I know you are

and I know learning a sinker is difficult. It's the not learning a two seam fastball that I don't get.

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 15, 2007 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions

many, many power pitchers don't add the sinker

or splitter or 2-seamer until after they reach the big leagues. chris carpenter being one example. matt morris another. darryl kile never had a 2-seamer, as far as i know. neither did / does woody williams.

reyes' basic 4-seam / changeup kit should have been good enough to get him broken in as a reliable pitcher at the big league level. those two pitches made him borderline-dominant at triple A, where he struck out a man an inning in 2005 and ahd a k/bb ratio of nearly 5 to 1. at double A the previous year, his k/bb was nearly 8 to 1. no way he could have posted numbers like that without top-tier stuff.

in those days reyes' 4-seamer was a versatile weapon --- he moved it around the zone (up-down, out-in) to give batters different looks, and then he had the changeup to mess up their timing. if they'd left him alone, those two pitches probably would have been enough to get him through a couple seasons of league-average (or better) pitching. longer term, he'd have needed to develop other pitches to last --- but dave n tony forced the issue, and their intervention set him back.

by lboros on Jul 16, 2007 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions

The man said "We are a two-seam

SINKERBALL organization.....the issue is the sinker.....it's stupid.......my point is there is a whole lot of pitchers who CAN'T get the ball to sink no matter what....they are still good pitchers

by jillsinmo on Jul 15, 2007 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions

Quick, name 5 dominant sinker ball pitchers.

That have consistant success year after year.

Or how about name 5 sinker ball pithers in the HOF?

There is a reason most of the most dominant pithers in the game don't rely on it.

The sinker is a pitch that allows pitchers to try to get easy outs, but its not one you can dominate a team with. Its too easy to put in play.

by DriverZn on Jul 14, 2007 3:56 PM EDT reply actions

I don't think

they want him to be a sinker ball pitcher. I think they want him to throw a sinking two seam fastball to go along with the rest of his rep. The kind just about every dominant pitcher ever has thrown.

And how was he not taught a two seamer in like little league or high school?

Boooo-urns.

by Alxfritz on Jul 14, 2007 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions

I can name a lot of very good pitchers that didn't

Throw a sinker.

Just off the top of my head.

Johnson
Santana
Ryan
Blylevin (sp?)
Sid Fernandez (Good carrer on high in the zone mid 80's heat)

Seems even a cards favorite, Jeff Suppan, didn't really throw one. I remember him commenting last year that he didn't have a sinker so he couldn't go after the DP the way Mulder and Marquis did.

by DriverZn on Jul 14, 2007 4:57 PM EDT reply actions

Doh, my reply-to skill bad.

by DriverZn on Jul 14, 2007 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions

In my opinion,

I think the relationship between Reyes and LaRussa/Duncan is exaggerated, as are all such relationships that get so much attention. As far as the two-seam philosophy, I just see the team being smart. If all of their pitchers can add another useful pitch, why not add it? Now, I do understand that Reyes is having problems with it, but he has not been consistent at this level. Lboros brought up the Hamels comparison, which is a good one w.r.t. development. When a pitcher is struggling, having other options to throw would seem to be a good thing. If one pitch is off, said pitcher is doomed. But if Reyes can add a two-seamer, he then has more options if, say, his slurve-piece of change-up is off that night.

One thing I do disagree with LaRussa and Duncan on concerning Reyes is where he is right now. He should be pitching with St. Louis now, imo. But, especially with this year being lost, I do not see a problem with him still trying to become successful with a two-seamer. I am no expert, but, for better or worse, I will give Duncan the benefit of the doubt.

"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." ~Rogers Hornsby

by spiderman15 on Jul 15, 2007 2:57 PM EDT reply actions

I think another thing that has hurt him

is the constant scrutiny over each pitch; he's afraid to make a mistake.....that, and the fact that the ticket to Memphis had been placed in his locker more than a couple times since he's been here. How could he not have his confidence shaken? Maybe he should just give back his signing bonus, (not his salary, I have no questions about his work ethic) and call the whole thing off. Neither side seems to have gotten what they expected from each other.....

by jillsinmo on Jul 15, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Reyes and the Sinker

I don't really think Miller's comments are all that surprising. We've all known, for quite a while, that the Cardinals' pitching philosophy centers around ground ball outs. For the most part, I'm not a huge fan of the philosophy, nor do I have a huge problem with it. If it works, great. If it doesn't, try something else.

The thing about Reyes is that, in order to try and get him to throw a naturally sinking fastball, Duncan tried to get him to stay "on top" of the ball more. The move of staying on top of the ball and pronating your wrist, to produce the sinker spin on the ball, goes against Anthony's natural arm slot. Unfortunately, I think that attempted change to Reyes' mechanics is a big part of why we've seen Anthony struggle so mightily. Plently of pitchers struggle when they first come up to the majors. That wouldn't necessarily be an issue. The issue, to me, is the decline in the quality of Reyes' overall stuff. He just doesn't have anywhere near the same velocity of movement he did before the whole sinker experiment.

Those defending Reyes, as well as those attacking him, often lose sight of what has actually happened with Anthony. He has not been a good pitcher this year, nor does he seem to have the stuff to be a really good pitcher at this level anymore. However, those who blame Anthony and fall in line with what Duncan and LaRussa say need to realize that there has been a dramatic downturn in the quality of Reyes's stuff ever since the attempted change to his mechanics, from four seamer to sinker, and from slider to curveball.

I don't need no instructions to know how to rock.

by the red baron on Jul 16, 2007 12:42 AM EDT reply actions

I do understand that because of my own son's

attempt to learn to throw a sinker. He lost the ability to get his curve to break and that is his 'out' pitch. I do think while trying to work on the other pitches, he lost the feel for the ones he could throw. It happens to a lot of pitchers. Now you know everyone is going to say that you and I are making excuses for him....pitching mechanics are extremely hard to undo, and once you try, you open a whole new set of problems. And wouldn't you know, ARey got back on track tonight--6 innings, 86 pitches, 57 strikes, his big inning was the third-opened with a double, sacrificed to third, the run scored on a ground out to first. 6 ground outs, 4 fly outs 2 walks and uh-oh 8 K's. I'm sure he didn't mean to do it. He gave up one other hit, a double that died on the basepaths....He was pulled for a pinch hitter in the top of the 7th, and they scored so he left tied 1-1. I only read the box score, so I don't know what/where the pitches were. He is not a "two seam sinkerball" pitcher and the more he tries the worse he gets. If LaDunc is back next year, I hope they trade him.

by jillsinmo on Jul 16, 2007 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions

very well put red baron

the only thing i would add that the change in mechanics / approach has destroyed reyes' confidence. he is not committed to this approach; he's been pitching with doubt ever since he reached the big leagues.

he doesn't trust the pitch-to-contact stuff, and the brass have undermined his confidence in his basic 4-seam / changeup kit . . . what a train wreck.

by lboros on Jul 16, 2007 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions

And why should he?

He has never pitched that way before....and I hope if LaDunc is back they trade him. And I hope it's to the Mets, Dodgers or Twins--because all of their pitchers have a different look and a different set of pitches. They would have no problem getting the best out of him, because they would focus on his best pitches. "We are a two-seam sinkerball" organization. It's obvious he CAN'T throw the pitch, that his mechanics preclude him from ever throwing the pitch. And he is in limbo because LaDuncetty has one tiny little bit of doubt and the ghost of Dan Haren and Jose Rios in their head.......and they don't seem to care that what they have tried to do may be ruining the only homegrown prospect that was anywhere close to majors. I'm rooting for him because he has shown flashes of brilliance, and he has shown strong character while going through this ordeal. Darn, I wish it could be in St. Louis....

by jillsinmo on Jul 16, 2007 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions

Thanks, Larry

I also, after reading your addendum on the subject of Anthony's confidence, have another point.

When Reyes first came up last season, he threw a one hitter against the White Sox. He continued to throw pretty well, but the longer he attempted to fit into the Duncan/LaRussa mold of a pitcher, the worse he became. More nibbling, less attacking, no intent to get after it. The only other game the rest of the season when he really looked like 'F You' Anthony again was game one of the Series. The one game in which, according to published comments, he was told to just "go get 'em", to forget the game plan, just throw the damn thing.

I don't know if they've tried that tack since then; I'm sure they have. It seems Reyes's belief in his ability may be so low by this point that he just doesn't feel like he can do it here.

You're right, though. Train wreck is a pretty good way to put it.

I don't need no instructions to know how to rock.

by the red baron on Jul 16, 2007 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions