Game 59 Open Thread: June 9, 2007, 6:15 CDT

End our suffering

After last night, I am now officially ready for the Kip Wells era to end. I know that the Cardinals, at this point, don't have any great alternatives, but they do have some alternatives, and it's time to put one of them to use.

I wouldn't mind seeing either Reyes (yeah, right, that'll happen) or Franklin take Wells' place. Hopefully, Percival will be good enough for the latter to happen sooner rather than later, 'cause I don't think the former is on the horizon.

by steve in georgia on Jun 9, 2007 10:03 AM EDT reply actions

Don't remember who called it,

But someone mentioned this past week that the bullpen was due for a blowup, considering the fact that they have to carry us for 3 or for innings every game.

Another thing, I'm amazed that any lineup with Adam Dunn in it could lead the league in walks.....that guy's a K machine.

by fuegophil on Jun 9, 2007 10:11 AM EDT reply actions

Adam Dunn...

...takes a lot of pitches. If they're outside, he walks. If they're inside, he strikes out. Amazing Three True Outcomes guy. His career walk rate is amazingly high.

by cwyers on Jun 9, 2007 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions

He walks a lot

Always has.

third in the majors last year, and he was third in the majors the year before that. Think about Edmonds--he K's a lot, but he maintains a good batting average and can take a walk. Some guys strike out a lot on 3-2, and some strike out on 0-2. The former will also walk a lot.

by Valatan on Jun 9, 2007 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions

wow.......

Never would of thought of him as a guy that's good at taking a walk.....

Guess it's just hard for me to imagine a guy the size of Goliath taking ball four.

by fuegophil on Jun 9, 2007 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions

No mention of the Percival signing?

What do you think of the acquisition Larry?

I''m a Jenius!

by gibbons on Jun 9, 2007 10:24 AM EDT reply actions

nevermind

read yesterday's post, I'm behind on VEB!

I''m a Jenius!

by gibbons on Jun 9, 2007 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions

could be a great pickup

if he's healthy and able to get a couple of pitches over consistently, that would in effect give the cards another starting pitcher, by freeing up ryan franklin to join the rotation.

quite a number of teams were interested in percival. maybe the presence of 4 former teammates on the st louis roster factored into percival's decision.

by lboros on Jun 9, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Which is why we need to sign as many

Japanese players as we can so Ichiro feels the same way!

Right?

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 9, 2007 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions

RE: Percival and Franklin

From Bernie's Pressbox:

"TLR was admant about it again today -- Franklin won't be moved into the rotation no matter what Percival does."

by BTown Birds fan on Jun 9, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions

Unbelievable

Tony must lead the freakin' league in stubbornness.

I don't get this. He'll gladly sign up for converting any washed-up reliever into a starter, but god forbid one of our successful pitchers with actual experience as a starter be given the ball every 5 days.

I mean, our starting pitching is a f*cking joke. We are DEAD LAST in the league by a HUGE margin in starter ERA (5.25!!), DEAD LAST with the most starter losses (29), 15/16 in starter SO, 15/16 in starter IP, 15th out of 16 in both opponents' SLG and OPS, and 14/16 in starter BAA (.283, with only .003 separating us from DEAD LAST yet again).

How the hell can he NOT consider having Franklin start, ferchristssake? What the hell is Tony thinking? Can anyone justify this?

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jun 10, 2007 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions

You forgot to mention

that Wells struck out 6 in five innings. Also, members of the bullpen were all complaining about the strike zone being too high and that that made them throw hittable pitches. If that's the case, good for Wells for finding a way to get around the ump for much of the game--throwing a number of different pitches that they chased.

I find it disappointing that people on this thread won't give credit to Wells when he keeps us in the game for 5 innings and then make excuses for the bullpen. TJ has not thrown many pitches lately. He should have been able to strike those players out. Springer has thrown more pitches than TJ and he did just fine. But no one will admit that Wells played the game better last night than the heart of our pen. Many have sugested that Wells lost the game. Review the "no decision" rules. They are enforced for a reason. Wells left us in a position to win; he didn't lose the game. The bullpen lost it.

As to pitches, do you think Reyess, could have gotten those guys out with the limited pitches he has available to him?

by nycardfan on Jun 9, 2007 10:28 AM EDT reply actions

I think many

of us are suffering from "Wells Fatigue." I know I am. While last night may have been a passable start from him, it still wasn't anything worth celebrating. Had TLR left him in, the results would have been the same. He was well on his way to blowing the lead when he exited. He may not have "lost" the game, but to say he left them "in a position to win," while technically true, is a bit of a candy coating that wouldn't apply to most decent starting pitchers. Yes, it was better than his last couple starts, but if that's the best that can be said, he's still, for the most part, useless to this team and has fully earned the distrust and anger of the fans. As their only non-reliever conversion, I expect far more from him than what he's done so far. This team is so screwed on pitching that it's hard to recall what a really good performance looks like anymore.

by rockin redbird on Jun 9, 2007 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions

Your mom goes to college.

It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Jun 9, 2007 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions

Uh....

Okay. Whatever that means. My mom did, in fact, graduate from Washington University in 1958. However, she was not on a baseball scholarship :-)

by rockin redbird on Jun 9, 2007 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions

It's a quote from a movie

see here

by Valatan on Jun 10, 2007 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions

i'm not giving wells much credit

because he didn't pitch a very good game. one of the outs he "recorded," in the 4th inning, came when edmonds threw a man out at 3d --- if not for that play, it's 1st / 3d with one out, and the angels are probably putting runs on the board. another of his outs, the last one in the 5th, was a scorching line drive that happened to find albert's glove --- but, if not for that bit of luck, would have given the angels a 5-4 lead.

he fooled them one time through the order, and thereafter he was fairly defenseless against them.

by lboros on Jun 9, 2007 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah

I still think it would make a lot of sense to put Wells in the bullpen, and see how he takes to it. Isn't that what you do with pitchers with great stuff but issues with goign through the order multiple times?

by Valatan on Jun 9, 2007 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions

Exactly.

We simply cannot afford to keep giving him 4 inning starts. I say we make him our long reliever and try to find someone else to start who might actually be able to make it to the 6th without constantly putting us in the hole.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jun 10, 2007 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions

I have been frustrated by Wells too

as I have been frustrated by Reyes. But I don't think Wells has been favored by LaRussa/Dunan--he simply wasn't sent down because he can't be. In fact I think a lot of Wells' problems have been exacerbated by their managing of him. Wells had a number of quality starts at the beginning of the season but he did not have good run support. He should have a more wins from that period, just as Reyes should. Then Wells fell apart. There's no disputing that.

Where I differ from most fans is that I think Wells has improved in certain key areas and I think the managers could now focus in more narrowly on what is still hindering him, namely problems with endurance. The reason I think they have managed him badly is that rather than recognizing this, they made his situation worse by making him throw 125 pitches followed by 100+ pitches (this bracketed his having a baby, which must be tiring all by itself). They have a certain set goal they want Wells to meet immediately and they seem willing to lose games in order to try to force him into meeting those goals. The goal may be a logical one--play six innings, but perhaps he needs to be conditioned in a different way in order to reach that goal. Their rigidity in this respect seems similar to their treatment of Reyes.

What I think Wells has improved on is his control (his walks of late have happened when he is getting tired) and his getting shaken up when people are on basis. Wells has proven in the last three or four games that he no longer has the yips when people are on base. These are real improvements. (By the way, these are things that I still think Reyes needs to work on and I think he can with different managers).

Since people have not given up on Reyes, I don't know why they treat Wells with such disdain. Yes, he's a veteran. But he's also had a lot of injuries and this is in many ways a rehab year for him. He has potential and I think could be managed in a way to help the team. But LaRussa and Duncan refuse to tailor their managing to any individual situations. They've lost a lot of good pitchers because of this. And I think it's possibe that Wells could go someplace else--just as Marquis has done--and do much better than he has with LaRussa/Duncan.

All in all, I think we need new managing across the board. I've supported them for a long time. But I think they have lost touch with reality in how to help their pitching staff this year.

by nycardfan on Jun 9, 2007 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions

the major difference

betw reyes and wells is that wells' poor performance with the cardinals is consistent with an 8-year career of poor performance. he has had a league-average era only twice in that 8-year career --- the last time it happened was 4 years ago. so it seems a thin chance that he is suddenly going to turn it around and discover himself.

wiht reyes, the contrary is true. he's a young pitcher who still hasn't pitched a full season in the big leagues. many (most) young pitchers struggle for their first 25 or 30 starts, and then something clicks and they become good big-league pitchers. it might or might not happen that way for reyes --- but if he's not pitching up here, we'll never find out.

by lboros on Jun 9, 2007 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions

I think

much of what you're saying is due to the fact that they don't really have a pitching staff at all. Aside from whatever is driving the Reyes bullshit, I think LaDunc have done a pretty good job with what they have. How many staffs in baseball have to deal with 4/5ths of their rotation being made up of relievers? I expected more from Wells because, well, he is a bonafide starting pitcher. I really didn't expect him to be the as-advertised #2, but when he can't pitch better than a bunch of converted relievers, I have a hard time blaming that all on the manager and pitching coach.

by rockin redbird on Jun 9, 2007 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Agreed, rockin'...

There were times last night when I wished to teleport myself to the Busch Stadium mound, grab Wells by the front of his shirt, and bellow, "THROW THE (sexually-active) BALL OVER THE (Oedipally-conflicted) PLATE!!!!" (The clinical descriptions provided within the parentheses would, of course, have been replaced with "baseball profanity.")

This would, at least, have provided Cardfans with the comedic sight of a 5-foot-9, overweight, middle-aged man trying to intimidate a 6-foot-5 Major League athlete into better performance...

I don't know whether Wells cannot throw his breaking pitches for "called" strikes; or if he will not. While it's possible to "fool" big-league hitters into swinging at pitches out of the strike zone, sooner or later, any pitcher will have to throw that "fool 'em" pitch over the plate; otherwise, smart hitters (like the Angels last night) will simply start taking that pitch.

Wells should be the most "comfortable" of the Cardinals' starters, since he has by far the most MLB experience as a starter; but he's been the worst of the bunch! While "pitcher's wins" are an overrated stat, I must say Wells is 2-10 on merit!

It's a beautiful day for a ballgame!

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 9, 2007 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions

I hope you feel the same way

about Looper tonight. I think his performance only shows how good of a job Wells did last night.

by nycardfan on Jun 9, 2007 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Edmonds

It seems like he used to walk a lot more than he has this year. I guess pitchers aren't as careful with him as they used to be. Also Eckstein and Juan Enc never walk. 2B is a black hole. We could stay towards the bottom of the leauge in OBP for a while. Hopefully all of Pujols solo homeruns can win us some games.

"The right-hander is throwing up in the bullpen." -Mike Shannon

by DJ87 on Jun 9, 2007 10:43 AM EDT reply actions

The bullpen imploded last

night. I'm not going to blame Wells for the loss, but he's way too erratic to be reliable. I really can't bear to watch him-he just seems like he never made the jump from thrower to PITCHER. I don't know how Reyes would have done against the Angels; they are a GREAT all around team. It doesn't matter. Management doesn't appear to want anything to do with young Mr. I'm different-I look and throw different-and they are going to keep trotting Mr. Wells out there because he's a veteran. He's got a $4 million dollar contract. He pitches to contact. He's their kind of guy. If they have to make a move, they'd have to admit they're wrong. And we all know they are never wrong. And we all know they are arrogant enough to believe it. I have said it before and I'll say it again-management that sees more upside in Wells and Wellemeyer than in Reyes or Franklin, is management that has questionable judgement.

by jillsinmo on Jun 9, 2007 10:53 AM EDT reply actions

And about contracts.......

anyone know the size of LaRussa, Duncan's and Jocketty's contract? Maybe it's time we DFA them. I know we won last year-it was exciting and glorious, and we were damn lucky to get that far considering how we finished the season. We played well when it really mattered-and it was wonderful. BUT lightening doesn't strike twice. I really would like to see an infusion of new blood at the top, because the current management's ability to evaluate talent is suspect. They chose to sign Wells and Kennedy and both players are markedly worse than what was already here, and they let walk.

by jillsinmo on Jun 9, 2007 11:09 AM EDT reply actions

Yeah...

The same manager/GM has certainly never taken the Cardinals to the series twice.

And the same manager/GM has certainly never taken the Yankees to the series twice.

Or the Blue Jays.

Or the Reds.

by sdrone on Jun 9, 2007 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions

What?

A walk is a waste of three pitches-Bob Gibson

by orlando card on Jun 9, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions

Well, I DO give them a lot of credit-

they have done a good job of working with what they have. I just think it's time for a new direction-a brand new direction. They don't want to pay for new players, they don't want to trade for new players, they have built it strong on the corners, committed to Edmonds and Carpenter-but that's about it. They don't want to sign players they already have that play well for them (notably pitchers and 2nd baseman), they don't want to take risks in the draft. Money is the primary reasons for this-they are not willing to take risks because it costs money. They say they don't have it-3million + attendance, concessions, radio station (which I have real trouble tuning into in West County) and all they do is sit aroung hoping to strike gold with other clubs castoffs. If they don't have money, they better look into how the finances are being handled, because someone is ripping them off.

by jillsinmo on Jun 9, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions

If you're talking about spending money

that comes from the ownership group.

Jocketty, LaRussa and Duncan would probably love to have $150M to spend on players.

by player2bnamedl8r on Jun 9, 2007 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions

So...

who do you propose they replace them with? I don't think Billy Beane, Brian Cashman, or Theo Epstein will be clamoring for the GM job. And who's going to be the manager and pitching coach?

by cardsrul on Jun 9, 2007 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions

Not one of those guys....

but maybe one of their assistants. Someone who has worked in a really well run farm system-like the Dodgers or the Braves or Toronto. If we are going to try to develop our own players, we need someone who knows how to evaluate talent. Current management doesn't like to work with young players. They can't handle the ups and downs that come with it.

by jillsinmo on Jun 9, 2007 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions

Was Kennedy's projected value

really worse than Belliard's?

Kennedy has clearly underperformed, and maybe he will for the rest of his contract. But I think it was a pretty good signing at the time. Hell, it still might be.

Wells - they took a one-year flyer on the guy. Didn't seem unreasonable at the time, especially in relation to what Jeff Weaver wanted, and what Suppan was going to command.

by player2bnamedl8r on Jun 9, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions

I don't know what

Kennedy's projected value was. Belliard didn't hit as well as past numbers suggested-but he made plays at 2nd that we haven't seen around here for a long time-and it would have been safe to assume he would be fine after time for league adjustment. And he has played pretty well for the Nationals. Sure, take a flyer on Wells-but they also had two young rookie starters and a converted reliever and Chris Carpenter. That was a very high risk move, bordering on foolish. I really think the fan base deserved more than that. They thought Wells was better than he is. And that is why I have misgivings about their ability to evaluate talent.

by jillsinmo on Jun 9, 2007 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions

Kennedy was pretty much the same player for a lot

more money. But hey, Ronnie just wasnt a cardinal, right? Lets all enjoy two more years of this mediocre platoon.

It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Jun 9, 2007 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions

A lot more money

only because no one wanted Belliard.

Belliard is making 750K this year, Kennedy 2.5M.

Kennedy's salary wasn't unreasonable for his past performance.

by player2bnamedl8r on Jun 9, 2007 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions

Then Belliard's

price was a downright steal......and you are right-Belliard really wasn't a Cardinal. He looked like a gangster, he couldn't keep his shirt tucked in, but he sure played 2nd base well. Management prefers a black hole for second base-I have to assume that, becuase that's what it's been.....

by jillsinmo on Jun 9, 2007 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions

And that tongue...

You can't forget the cow tongue!

Good pitching will beat good hitting any time, and vice versa. ~Bob Veale, 1966

by bukowski on Jun 9, 2007 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions

It seems like

Kennedy's salary wasn't out of line for past performance. They gambled that he'd be the same here, and he hasn't lived up to that hefty contract-and it is hefty. We could have signed Belliard, or rented Graffanino or Loretta for the year. Now it's Kennedy for three years, and I hope he can turn it around. Let me repeat-this team has serious problems evaluating talent, and when they mess up they can't admit it.

by jillsinmo on Jun 9, 2007 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Belly not being re-signed

had as much to do with his little "indiscretion" as management's salary restrictions on that position.

by cardsrul on Jun 9, 2007 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions

Ah....the little indiscretion......

I believe Jim Edmonds has one of those too. That probably had something to do with it. But it was not a BASEBALL JUDGEMENT, it was a fear of how the public would react. Part of the allegations turned out to be a lie.....but I'd be willing to bet a lot of players are not quite pure.....they just managed to keep it out of the papers. Josh Hancock's behavior was kept out of the press until he had the fatal accident.

by jillsinmo on Jun 9, 2007 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions

for those of you interested

cardinals draftee david kopp is pitching on ESPN. first batter was a four-pitch walk, sounds like he'll fit right in.

by longhornscardinals on Jun 9, 2007 12:12 PM EDT reply actions

Tell me now.....

does he pitch to contact? Does he already have a sore arm? Please, no fastballs.

by jillsinmo on Jun 9, 2007 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions

he definitely pitches to contact

left in the third having given up 5 runs. thats a lot of contact.

by longhornscardinals on Jun 9, 2007 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Great....

Sounds like someone Dave can work with......

by jillsinmo on Jun 9, 2007 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions

wow

that makes me laugh and cry a little at the same time.

by Hammondsbird on Jun 9, 2007 1:15 PM EDT reply actions

Non-walks

Larry, I think this sums up your point on the Cardinals not walking as much as anything else...

Last night's winning pitcher was Hector Carrasco, who came into the game with 20 walks in 28.2 innings. That's absolutely terrible control.

So what do the Cardinals do? Rolen takes a strike and then gets out. Juancar makes an out on the first pitch. Kennedy makes an out on the first pitch, inning over in four pitches for a guy who's averaging around six walks per nine innings.

by whopperman on Jun 9, 2007 1:33 PM EDT reply actions

Speaking of talent evaluation

Has anyone noticed how well Sosa has been pitching for the Mets? Last night he blanked the big, bad Tigers. Admittedly, he was bad for the Cardinals last year. But Duncan did nothing for him, we got nothing for him, and now he shines for the Mets. All good things come to an end. It looks like that time may have arrived for Tony and Dave.

by MikeG on Jun 9, 2007 1:39 PM EDT reply actions

Duncan maybe a great pitching coach

but not all pitchers are going to respond well to his philosophies. I don't get all the overreactions whenever Walt makes a poor signing, LaRussa kicks a game away or Duncan can't turn around a particular pitcher.

by Zubin on Jun 9, 2007 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions

The problem is

that too many think of Duncan as a miracle man and overlook his numerous failures. Sosa is one of the more glaring, but surprisingly overlooked, ones. Overall, Duncan's had a good run, but I suspect it's time for a tranfusion of new blood at the top.

by MikeG on Jun 9, 2007 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Sosa

He's currently sporting a .207 BABIP and 6.6% HR/FB. He's getting lucky. K's down, walks up, GB/FB down...give it time.

Pujols < .300 (it worked for .200)

by joker24 on Jun 9, 2007 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Well.....

He showed flashes of that kind of pitching for the Braves too. We really may have given up on him too soon. He sure had a problem with the gopher ball....As the year goes on, we'll see if he's been good, lucky, or maybe he finally figured out how to pitch. Time will tell......

by jillsinmo on Jun 9, 2007 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes, time will tell

He's getting lucky definitively and quantitatively. A .203 BABIP would be 30 points below the lowest finish in the league since 2002. His Hr/Fb would place him in the "top" 5 (lowest %) yearly in that category as well since 2002. His 80.7% strand rate...also would be in the top 3 in each year since '02. He's got three (mostly) non-skill things going for him each in a BIG way. Hence he's doing well...for now.

Pujols < .300 (it worked for .200)

by joker24 on Jun 9, 2007 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions

What are your thoughts...

...about putting Reyes in the bullpen? Since we can't get a starter through 7, why not have him in relief to bridge the middle innings? Give him another chance to show value and then trade him...

The other thing - what do you think about the "tenacity" of the starters? Wouldn't it be nice to see an opposing leadoff hitter get a high inside fastball to start an inning and sent sprawling..I'm not sure they have enough attitude - but maybe that's just me...seems like opposing batters don't respect our starters...

Good pitching will beat good hitting any time, and vice versa. ~Bob Veale, 1966

by bukowski on Jun 9, 2007 2:27 PM EDT reply actions

I'm not sure I like the idea of Reyes in the

bullpen, but it's certainly something to consider. Take baby steps back into the rotation. All's I can say is that they are willing to let Wainwright, Thompson, Wellemeyer, and Wells make many of the same mistakes Reyes made and he's the one who gets sent down. He's the one told to throw a 2 seam fastball or else. He's not allowed to come in high and tight, even though it's clearly his best pitch. It gives the staff a different look-we just want Carpenter to be Carpenter, and everyone else to look like everyone else. He should be up here, sink or swim. He's got nothing to prove at AAA. He's already mastered AAA. Now we have to see if he has what it takes to master the majors. They are actually ruining him as a pitcher for us and as trade bait for someone else. And once again, kudos for Mr. Reyes for making no comments to the press. I think he's going to be gone and end up being a good no. 3-4 starter in someone else's rotation. Really, Tony and Dave have effed this one up, and they will NEVER admit they have made a mistake. In the meantime, Wells will take the mound every 5th day. UGH.......

by jillsinmo on Jun 9, 2007 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions

not only...

... does it seem like the Cards' use of Reyes has made him a less effective pitcher in the big leagues but it also may be decreasing the value that we can get in return due to his MLB numbers. Unless teams take our perspective... then he may still be valuable. Particularly to teams like Detroit and the White Sox of whom he has had masterful performances.

Personally, I'd like to see him set loose with little to no instruction for 2 or 3 games to see how he'd fair.

by AndyB83 on Jun 9, 2007 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions

I think thats the answer

Turn him lose and say, try it your way.

If he fails, then perhaps he will be more willing to change if he realizes that his approach doesn't work.

If he is successful, then great. The team wins.

by DriverZn on Jun 9, 2007 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions

Reyes in the pen

I don't have links or data or anything concrete to back this up, but if I remember correctly the knock on having Reyes come out of the bullpen has been that it supposedly takes him forever to get warmed up. it could explain some of his early inning stuggles, though...

Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 9, 2007 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions

Interesting is that we blame the stike zone

We have constructed our entire pitching staff around using only half the strike zone, they the people who did this are shocked when we have to change our game plan and cannot.

Some umpires call the high strike, its a fact of life. If would be nice if we had some pitchers that could make use of it on days it happens.

by DriverZn on Jun 9, 2007 3:37 PM EDT reply actions

Watching the Mets Tigers game

At what point in time did it become ok not to run out groundballs?

by saladdin69 on Jun 9, 2007 5:09 PM EDT reply actions

The rotoworld sidebar is cool

by Valatan on Jun 9, 2007 5:10 PM EDT reply actions

Yeah

thanks for adding it!

by El Hombre on Jun 9, 2007 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions

I miss Placido.

by saladdin69 on Jun 9, 2007 5:16 PM EDT reply actions

Ugly men who get the women list

the list has been added to with your help, but i have deleted a few

in no order
Willie Mcgee
Tom Petty
Aran Harang
and i forgot these two
McJagger
and wilem Dafo
Otis Nixon
Steve Buscemi
Rick Ocasek(the cars)

now i delted these tow names and ill take opinions and feedback

Jesse orrosco-the man played forever, but compared to mcgee or some of these guys he has neither the star power matched with scary ugliness(course harang isnt a huge star but creepy)

Ezequiel Astacio-plenty ugly but have we heard of him lately...maybe he still lands the chicas i dunno.

post your comments...hey at least this keeps us off reyes was screwed talk

Kelly Stinnett the new power to the cards lineup.

by punchinjudy on Jun 9, 2007 6:19 PM EDT reply actions

Flavor Flav

I wish that damn clock would get caught in a hay bailer, with him attached.

Didn't that blonde in Rocky look hot at one time, or am I confused?

by saladdin69 on Jun 9, 2007 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions

Los Lineups

LAA

C. Figgins 3B
O. Cabrera SS
V. Guerrero RF
G. Matthews, Jr. CF
C. Kotchman 1B
G. Anderson LF
H. Kendrick 2B
J. Molina C
E. Santana P

STL

D. Eckstein SS
C. Duncan LF
A. Pujols 1B
J. Edmonds CF
S. Rolen 3B
J. Encarnacion RF
A. Kennedy 2B
G. Bennett C
B. Looper P

Per ESPN

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 9, 2007 7:12 PM EDT reply actions

Injuries aside

I think this is the best lineup we can put out, for better or for worse.

Go get 'em Cards!

(The Mariners fans here in Seattle give their support.)

by ColinMacLeod on Jun 9, 2007 7:16 PM EDT reply actions

I agree

I might switch GB and AK though, but probably our best chance to win.

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 9, 2007 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions

man how much to we miss Yadda?

the Angels are running all over the Cards. gotta believe that is Yadda is healthy, they don't run nearly half has much.

heal quickly Yadda.

go get 'em tonight gents.

The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 9, 2007 7:21 PM EDT reply actions

Glad Loop got around the leadoff single

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 9, 2007 7:24 PM EDT reply actions

11 pitches for 3 groundouts

Pitch to contact works wonders at times.

by ColinMacLeod on Jun 9, 2007 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions

And sometimes the contact is hard..

Which is the problem.

by DriverZn on Jun 9, 2007 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions

wow. i've never heard Albert yell like that

don't know what he was thinking. that was a strike. low, but deff a strike. calm down big fella.

The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 9, 2007 7:31 PM EDT reply actions

Well Shit.

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 9, 2007 7:36 PM EDT reply actions

another lefty gets to LOOP

CRAP

The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 9, 2007 7:37 PM EDT reply actions

Looper's Splits

He's been better vs. left-handed batters so far this season.

by liam on Jun 9, 2007 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions

why isn't this game on tv?

or last night's for that matter? what is going on?

satis superque

by ortic jones on Jun 9, 2007 7:43 PM EDT reply actions

greedy slimeballs at Fox

To add insult to injury, Fox is showing a frigging celebrity golf tournament in California...

Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 9, 2007 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions

No TV

It's not being carried in Champaign, IL. It's one of the extra games that were shifted from WB to FSMW. Local cable carrier didn't want to pay for the extra games is what I've been told.

by liam on Jun 9, 2007 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions

arrrrg.

so when do i get to see a game again?

satis superque

by ortic jones on Jun 9, 2007 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Tomorrow

The game is on KSDK in STL and the WB in Champaign. You can find your local affiliate here.

by liam on Jun 9, 2007 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions

Hitting alot of fly balls

Maybe they'll start finding gaps soon or getting over fences?

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 9, 2007 7:55 PM EDT reply actions

If anyone wants to feel a little better

Our good friend Jason Marquis doesn't make it out of the 2nd inning after giving up 5 runs. Glorious.

by cloistermaximus on Jun 9, 2007 8:00 PM EDT reply actions

in fact 6 runs, 2 er on 3 walks and 4 hits

From Curaçao, the friendly island in the Caribbean

by Johnny64 on Jun 9, 2007 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions

C'mon Looper

Don't give in...

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 9, 2007 8:08 PM EDT reply actions

Essentially

two doubles given up to Santana . . .pathetic.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 9, 2007 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Double to the pitcher??

The AMERICAN LEAGUE pitcher???

I miss playing the Reds and Astros :(

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 9, 2007 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions

oh you got to be effing kidding me!

that's an AL PITCHER LOOP!!!! how the hell do you give up a hit to an AL PITCHER WHO'S NEVER HAD A EFFIN HIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 9, 2007 8:11 PM EDT reply actions

Are they pulling him?

Watching it on Gameday...a little slow...

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 9, 2007 8:14 PM EDT reply actions

it's June 06 all over again

the AL is flat kicking the hell out of the Cardinals.

The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 9, 2007 8:15 PM EDT reply actions

Great

Kotchman leads off the next inning.

He also led of the 2nd and 4th.........pattern anyone?

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 9, 2007 8:18 PM EDT reply actions

Great, no starters left with a sub 4 era

Only 2 left under 5, ugh.

by DriverZn on Jun 9, 2007 8:21 PM EDT reply actions

Hooray

No more perfect game. No-hitter still intact though.

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 9, 2007 8:24 PM EDT reply actions

stupid kid cost us a run

i hope he gets beat up by angry girl scouts at school monday... his dad should have raised him better...

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines

by RosevilleRedbird on Jun 9, 2007 8:33 PM EDT reply actions

I know the bullpen is wasted

But get 'im outta there. He's got nothing left in the tank.

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 9, 2007 8:36 PM EDT reply actions

nice

Juan showed up today. kept garret to a single. now hits a line drive home run to left. nice work Juan.

The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 9, 2007 8:42 PM EDT reply actions

saladin 69

what blonde in which rocky hopefully you wernt refering to dolph lungren(SP)..jk

Kelly Stinnett the new power to the cards lineup.

by punchinjudy on Jun 9, 2007 8:58 PM EDT reply actions

I must break you.

by billyhoyel on Jun 9, 2007 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions

Blonde

The one Sly married. The Communist's wife.

by saladdin69 on Jun 9, 2007 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Edmonds pecks away at the lead

6-3.

Keep it up you Redbirds.

by ColinMacLeod on Jun 9, 2007 9:11 PM EDT reply actions

Kennedy's Bat

It's hurting this team pretty bad. He's got to bring up that LD%.

by liam on Jun 9, 2007 9:24 PM EDT reply actions

Agreed

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 9, 2007 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions

No kidding...

lazy fly balls all around.

by AndyB83 on Jun 9, 2007 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Can we start calling Ludwick Encino Man?

He looks alot like Brendan Fraser in his Gameday pic.

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 9, 2007 9:38 PM EDT reply actions

I'm starting to think Flores should be called

D'Artagnan--he totally looks like a Muskateer or something with that facial hair

by Valatan on Jun 9, 2007 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions

I always thought he looked like

Johnny Depp's uglier brother or something. Maybe Captain Jack Sparrow for Flo?

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 9, 2007 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions

he's going to need more eyeshadow

Rabid Redbird

by gthedamned on Jun 9, 2007 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Weaver makes his return tonight...

and I see Marquis is being Marquis again.

Last 6 starts: 30 innings, 23 runs allowed, 16 walks, 17 ks.

It's going to be long, sucky summer for Jason...

by guayzimi on Jun 9, 2007 9:43 PM EDT reply actions

if it wasn't for JM

This would have been a miserable day.

Hopefully the braves will hold on and the rangers will come back and win...

Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 9, 2007 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Weaver makes his return tonight...

and I see Marquis is being Marquis again.

Last 6 starts: 30 innings, 23 runs allowed, 16 walks, 17 ks.

It's going to be long, sucky summer for Jason...

by guayzimi on Jun 9, 2007 9:43 PM EDT reply actions

Scott Shields is good

by Valatan on Jun 9, 2007 9:55 PM EDT reply actions

guess we know

who's going to get demoted when prcival shows up.

Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 9, 2007 10:08 PM EDT reply actions

Perhaps it's time the Cardinals swore off pitchers

named Jiminez

by Valatan on Jun 9, 2007 10:09 PM EDT reply actions

Agreed

I'm just waiting for them to decide that he's not ready yet. As if his 8.55 ERA in 17 appearances doesn't tell them enough.

"Tyler's gonna bust a nut on some babies tonight!" - Tyler Johnson (as told by Alex Fritz)

by Mr Redbird on Jun 9, 2007 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions

that was depressnig

the Cards clearly are not a team that can hang with the big boys.

The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 9, 2007 10:23 PM EDT reply actions

It's a game of inches

Minus the awful inning by Jiminez (who apparently CAN'T hang with the big boys), and if the fan hadn't interfered on Jimmy's ground rule double, we would have lost this game 6-4. The 2 run double by their pitcher would have been the tie-breaker. If the gods of baseball had leaned in our favor- giving Jimmy 3 more feet on his first swing and giving rolen a hit in the 5th inning, and we'd have been tied at 6.

They had a lot of bloops fall in. both games. They're the better ball club, but we're not so bad as to be written off just yet.

Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 9, 2007 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions

very true

but from my perspective, when the Cards have played a team with a record above .500, every weakness the Cards has is exploited. for example the past two nights are bullpen has been drilled. the Cards seam to handle the teams like Cincy, H-town, Pitt. but they go outside the Central, and they have major problems beating those teams.

the above .500 teams seam to always get the breaks as well. like you said the Angels have had a lot of bloop hits fall and drive in that are killing the Cards.

these two games need to wake up the Cards brass. they have to prove to them that a rotation full of guys out of the bullpen can't be counted on to win big games. it's nothing personal against the guys in the rotation. it's not their fault they are being asked to do something they can't. and because they cant get out of the 5th innings, the bullpen is over used. i think all the pitchers are running on fumes right now except for IZZY and Franklin. and poor KIPPY. dude is a head case. i really feel bad for the guy. he's not very good, and he knows it.

i dont know what the Cards can do to fix their pitching problems. Walt keeps saying no one will trade with him. sounds like something he needs to take up with Bud. and no one on the Cards being willing to work with Anthony is not helping either. granted he needs to be more flexable as well. but still. he's one of their best pitchers, and he's being wasted.

this season reminds me of 2003 now more than ever. good O, but down right terriable pitching. i've been saying all week that this part of the schedule will show everyone just how good the Cardinals are. and now we know. the Cards are at their best a .500 club. we as fans can no longer expect them to make it to the playoffs with the pitching this team has. if Carp&Mulder can't get healthy and productive soon, and Walt cant get some good pitching in here. there is now way the Cards finish the season with a winning record and a spot in the playoffs.

The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 10, 2007 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions

18 hits.

I leave to go fishing and come back to 18 hits allowed.
Jeez guys, I left ya'll in charge of this game.

by saladdin69 on Jun 9, 2007 10:25 PM EDT reply actions

saladin 69

you are refering to Brigette Nielson...flava flavs ex...and yes at one time she was regarded bombshell i think... i was real young.Red sonjaI ...now shes old and weird...

then
http://celebrity.com.ne.kr/warrior/red/red008.jpg

now:http://www.imdb.com/gallery/granitz/2639/Events/2639/BrigitteNi_Mazur_3956189_400.jpg.html?path=pgal lery&path_key=Nielsen,%20Brigitte

Kelly Stinnett the new power to the cards lineup.

by punchinjudy on Jun 9, 2007 10:34 PM EDT reply actions

That's her.

I couldn't remember her name.
That flavor dude is one ugly mf'er.

by saladdin69 on Jun 9, 2007 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions

On the bright side we have Wellemeyer

Going tomorow.

Oh, wait....

by DriverZn on Jun 9, 2007 10:51 PM EDT reply actions

holy cow

Cordero implodes with 2 outs in the bottom of the ninth, giving up 5 straight singles and a walk and wasting 7 nearly perfect innings from sheets... Rangers win 4-3.

There is still hope...

Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 9, 2007 11:18 PM EDT reply actions

saladin

you're right Flava flav has to be added...

Kelly Stinnett the new power to the cards lineup.

by punchinjudy on Jun 9, 2007 11:57 PM EDT reply actions

Clemens

Ok the guy won, but what they are not saying is that when i shut it off after 4 or 5 innnings he had thrown 90 pitches and it was tied 3-3..but now all hail the rocket...It was the pirates i'd love to see that start against the MEts or BoSox...

prediction..this retirement year doesnt fair as well as the last 3

Kelly Stinnett the new power to the cards lineup.

by punchinjudy on Jun 9, 2007 11:59 PM EDT reply actions

He through 98% straight fastball and splitter

he didn't have anything else working and stuck with the hard stuff. Had a lot of good movement on that splitter. He doesn't have the velocity he once did (topping out at 91 mph) but for a Yankees rotation that has been shaky, he gave them a chance to win the game.

And, it should have been 3-1. Bobby Abreu made Chris Duncan look like Bobby Clemente out there with the horrible route he took on Wilson's double.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 10, 2007 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions