grrrr and grrrrrr-er
says here the cards won't be trading for a starting pitcher any time soon; nobody available. the same article says anthony reyes "is not believed on the fast track back to St. Louis." that absolutely mystifies me. compare:
| inn/ start |
oppo slg |
oppo obp |
hr/9 | avg gm sc |
era | whip | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| thompson | 6 | .476 | .331 | 1.3 | 46 | 4.50 | 1.417 |
| reyes | 5.2 | .446 | .324 | 1.1 | 46 | 6.08 | 1.350 |
| wainwright | 5.2 | .473 | .382 | 0.9 | 44 | 5.19 | 1.702 |
| wells | 5.2 | .482 | .346 | 1.5 | 42 | 6.40 | 1.521 |
| wellemeyer | 4.1 | .500 | .410 | 4.2 | 45 | 5.19 | 1.920 |
let's see: reyes lasts about as long as all the other starters (except looper, who i left off this list because he's clearly better than all of them). he's got the lowest whip, lowest on-base allowed, lowest slugging avg allowed. he gives up fewer homers than everybody except wainwright. and he's got the highest (tied) average game score. yet he's got to work on his game; the others are guys we want to go to war with.
brad thompson's last start was a typical reyes outing: 6 innings, 4 earned runs, 9 baserunners, and 1 homer. thompson blew a 1-1 tie in the 5th inning by yielding a leadoff double to the #8 hitter --- who had a .179 average ---- and then giving up three consecutive two-out hits; 3 runs across, cards trailing 4-1. when this sort of thing used to happen to reyes (and it did, repeatedly), we'd all get pissed off and give up hope; 'nother loss, damn you reyes. ah, but the cardinals did something in thompson's outing that they never did in a reyes outing --- they rallied and won the game 6-4 --- and so thompson's effort was deemed acceptable. and it was acceptable --- game score of 42, which is a borderline-competent major-league start. reyes posted game scores of at least 42 in 7 of his 9 outings, but he went 0-6 in those 7 games, because the team only scored 17 runs total.
reyes may be stubborn and stupid and all the other things his detractors say about him, but the cardinals are just as stubborn and stupid if they keep him off the roster. he's one of their five best starting pitchers, and it's not a close call --- and they're desperate for starters. anthony has pitched well in both his starts down at memphis, including last night's (in which, cruelly, he was yet again denied his first win of 2007). stop screwing around and get him back up here already.
* * * * * * * *
i'll be updating the cards' list of draftees in this diary throughout the day. yesterday's draft thread is up to date; i've added a few more links with information about the cards' 1st through 5th round picks. good reading on the draft this morning at the post-dispatch blogs. Bird Land has an unedited Q+A with jeff luhnow, which includes luhnow's answer to this question:if the cardinals had taken, say, michael main instead of pete kozma (main went six picks later, at #24), i'm almost sure there wouldn't have been so much anger over the pass on porcello. why? because there was consensus among the draft pundits that main was a top-20 pick. people still might have been slightly disappointed (and maybe somewhat angry) that the cardinals wouldn't meet porcello's asking price, but mike main was an exciting pick in his own right --- not because of anything we knew about him ourselves, first-hand, but because of what the pundits had told us about him: viz., he has a high ceiling. the pundits had created some buzz around main; there wasn't much buzz around kozma. but that doesn't necessarily mean kozma lacks upside, and it doesn't mean his ceiling is only at the level of a david eckstein-type player. that comparison was bandied about yesterday, and it doesn't hold for me. david eckstein was a walk-on in college; kozma has a full-ride scholarship offer from wichita state, an elite program that has produced 25 major-league players --- and, eyeballing the alumni list, at least a dozen first-round picks. moreover, the pundits did agree that kozma was a top-40 pick (and a number of them had him in the top 20: espn's keith law had him going at #21; jonathan mayo of mlb.com had him in the same slot; jim callis of baseball america projected him at #15). by contrast, eckstein wasn't drafted until the 19th round at number 581. you just can't compare those two draftees. now, kozma might ultimately prove to be an eckstein clone; hell, he might prove not to be half the player eckstein is, might never even get to the big leagues. but if you compare the two at age 18 (the only fair comparison at this point), kozma blows eckstein out of the water. he's held in vastly higher regard by college recruiters and professional scouts than eckstein was at that age. so i feel safe in assuming that eckstein is too low a threshold; pete kozma's ceiling is higher than that.
is it higher than rick porcello's? probably not. but porcello was going to cost about $10 million, and the cardinals refused to pay, either because a) they're cheap, or b) they thought the risk outweighed the reward at that price. they're claiming the latter; i'm suspending judgment until it all plays out.
here's the ironic thing: while the cards' first-day harvest is being scoffed at as unbearably "safe" --- a signable shortstop and a bunch of college pitchers --- the truly safe thing to do would have been to stay with the herd and draft per the pundits' consensus. if the cards had taken michael main, few would be criticizing them --- and if main turned out to be a bust, people still wouldn't criticize because they'd have been just as wrong about the kid as the cardinals. same would be true if the cardinals had chosen josh smoker, tim alderson, will middlebrooks, or even kyle russell, whom the cardinals ultimately did take in the 4th round. so luhnow and co. are actually taking some hefty risks. they think their draftees have potential that the pundits missed; if they're wrong and the pundits were right, judgment will be merciless. they're putting their credibility on the line.
nothing safe about that.
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Good interview by DG
I sure hope that the interview helped others see what the Cards' brass was thinking.
I just cannot bring myself to judge this draft so harshly like others on this board have, because I can actually admit that I don't know that much about these players. I haven't seen them play personally.
If anyone at VeB can honestly say that they've personally seen these players beyond the scouting blurbs and videos - then I will put more weight into your opinions.
Otherwise - lets all wait and see.
by silent_bob on
Jun 8, 2007 9:52 AM EDT
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"Draft protesters" are way off base
- He was the best pure ML shortstop prospect in the draft. HS and college SS's usually project to 2B or OF. Kozma projects to be a ML SS with a ceiling somewhere between Mark Loretta and Nomar Garciaparra. That's a big improvement over Eckstein, who will almost surely be gone by the time Kozma is ready for the NL.
- The Cardinals do not have any SS prospects in their system that project to be at least average or above average across all 5 essential tools.
- The Cardinals have the weakest SS-2B combo in the NL offensively and a below average middle infield defensively, not good for a team that teaches it's pitchers to induce ground balls.
- The Cardinal minor leagues system has more than enough prospects for the outfield (Ankiel , Stavinoha, Rasmus, Mather, Jay) and pitching (Garcia, Hawksworth, Ottavino, Narveson, Perez, Worrell); Pujols and Rolen have the corner infield covered for the next couple of years or more; no top quality catching was available by pick #18 (fortunately Bryan Anderson is already in the system).
- The Reds and Twins had their eyes on Kozma, according to Baseball America. The Twins might have picked Kozma at #28, the Reds at #34, per BA, so there was a real risk Kozma would be gone by the time the Cardinals took their pick at #36.
- Porcello, the best player available at #18, is high potential, high cost, high risk (as risky as any HS pitching star). If you're buying stock, or drafting young baseball players, and your current portfolio has a hole in it, you much wiser to go for very good potential, moderate cost, low risk. That's how Warren Buffet became so wealthy, that's how the Cardinals are upgrading their portfolio in the entire system, top to bottom. The fact that 26 teams passed on Porcello validates that his risk/reward ratio did not merit a pick at #18.
- Kozma projects to be a very good ML SS, substantially better than David Eckstein (whom I like very much, but who is no Ozzie nor a Renterria). Kozma hits very well (.522 AVG, only one K in the regular season), he has some power (led his team in HR with 11), some speed (led his team in SB with 14), reportedly has the character, dedication and ability to handle pressure needed in MLB (he rose to the occasion in the playoffs this year to hit 4 HR, including a HR for the only run in his team's championship game.
by CardsWin on
Jun 8, 2007 1:30 PM EDT
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No they aren't
I didn't need to scout Frank Thomas to know that he wasn't a good fit for this ballclub this offseason. The war room is doing a good job of discrediting Kozma already, with the most encouraging quote being that he is comparable to Nomar at this stage of his development (Nomar's bat was the big question about him in high school, all the way up until his third year as a pro when he turned things around) and with further quotes comparing him to Jack Wilson and Skip Schumaker. Those scouting reports stating that his upside was Mark Loretta seem positively glowing in retrospect.
The Cardinals do not have any SS prospects in their system that project to be at least average or above average across all 5 essential tools.
And they still don't. Kozma's power is very much in question.
The Cardinals have the weakest SS-2B combo in the NL offensively and a below average middle infield defensively, not good for a team that teaches it's pitchers to induce ground balls.
Nope, they have been exactly league average as a pair thus far by UZR. Of course, that's a very small sample size, so perhaps we should go with 2004-2007 data, where they combine for +21 runs above average per 150 games.
The Reds and Twins had their eyes on Kozma, according to Baseball America. The Twins might have picked Kozma at #28, the Reds at #34, per BA, so there was a real risk Kozma would be gone by the time the Cardinals took their pick at #36.
And then we would have only had one of the consensus three best talents in the draft instead of the next Jack Wilson. Wow, we dodged a bullet there.
by cpebbles on
Jun 8, 2007 3:17 PM EDT
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how do you know this guy's destiny is jack wilson?
jack wilson was a 9th-round pick, the 258th overall selection --- and he was a 20-year-old college junior when selected. he wasn't drafted at all out of high school. so at age 18, jack wilson was on nobody's radar --- while pete kozma at age 18 is at worst a top-50 talent.
it's very pat, and very easy, to dismiss this guy as the next jack wilson, but that's an unconvincing comparison and one with no evidence to support it --- only one person's off-the-cuff opinion. i want to see this guy play before i decide that he's as bad as wilson.
by lboros on
Jun 8, 2007 3:29 PM EDT
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Unbelievable
NOBODY knows for sure about high school players. What were you saying about Rasmus when we drafted him 1st last year? Did you pay attention or care?
Your Frank Thomas argument makes no sense in this context. He's a DH, not a high school SS with a full ride to Wichita ST. That and I'd bet that most of us have personally seen the guy play.
There is absolutely zero reasons to be upset about the draft at this time. Zip. In 3 years, if Kozma doesn't pan out as a SS and Colby Rasmus and Ottavino are absolute busts - then you can make an argument about Luhnow's drafts.
Otherwise - as I stated previously, forgive me if I take less than zero stock into your opinion.
by silent_bob on
Jun 8, 2007 3:45 PM EDT
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Just because no one knows for sure
For someone who gives us best guess medical updates (which I'm always appreciative of) based on not seeing actual Xrays and MRIs you're awfully dismissive of other peoples ideas today. I'm not saying that everyone should have out the torches and shovels for a witch hunt but I think its pretty clear that the Cardinals did not pursue what were regarded as difficult to sign players even if they were the most talented player. Goold, in the comments of his Luhnow interview, says much the same thing.
by azruavatar on
Jun 8, 2007 4:01 PM EDT
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I never disagreed with you
The majority of the other 29 MLB teams did the same.
I'm dismissive of those who rip on the players that the Cardinals DID take - based on vague, opinionated scouting reports which have a track history of being unreliable.
by silent_bob on
Jun 8, 2007 4:07 PM EDT
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all scouting is subjective
I don't think it's impossible to make informed statements about prospects at this point. Are they going to be 100% dead on? no. Is it time to crucify the front office? no. Is there a happy middle ground w/ reasonable opinions? yes.
by azruavatar on
Jun 8, 2007 4:14 PM EDT
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I agree
Anyway, VeB people...good job the last few days on keeping the fans updated on everything going on.
stlfan
by stlfan on
Jun 8, 2007 10:06 AM EDT
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Larry is right on as usual
by whiteyball on
Jun 8, 2007 10:07 AM EDT
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I have always agreed
by jillsinmo on
Jun 8, 2007 10:34 AM EDT
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WS
by billyhoyel on
Jun 8, 2007 11:12 AM EDT
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they wouldn't have won it
by lboros on
Jun 8, 2007 11:15 AM EDT
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That's a bold statement
by Hardcore Legend on
Jun 8, 2007 11:29 AM EDT
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Agreeing and Disagreeing
With regard to whether the Cardinals are safe or not--I think it's a dodge to contend that the Cards aren't "safe" because they "put their credibility at stake."
It's not credibility that the Cardinals guard so carefullly. It's the cash. And once again, the Cardinals have been unwilling to risk cash for talent.
Nothing Luhnow said refutes the fact that Porcello was the most talented player available when the Cardinals' first pick came up. And the Cardinals declined Porcello--not for superior talent, and not even to protect a player they feared would be grabbed--but because they deemed Porcello too great a risk of not providing a return on the investment.
Obviously, I can't predict whether Porcello will produce net returns, but surely this form of averson to risk qualifies as playing it safe.
The Cardinals explicitly chose the player who caused them to expose less money to risk. Frankly, it's a little depressing when your team's parsimony extends even to drafting propects.
At some point, the Cardinals cannot content themselves with finding diamonds in the rough. At some point, they have to compete with the other teams in the league to acquire well-recognized talent.
by Titus Pullo on
Jun 8, 2007 1:13 PM EDT
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then what about the dodgers
what about the white sox, who could have had porcello at #25 but instead chose a raw college pitcher, aaron poreda, who everybody had behind porcello?
those are large-market teams with postseason expectations. are they cheapskates, too?
the large-market phillies also passed on porcello at #19 and chose a college pitcher. the giants passed on porcello at #22 and took a lesser high-school right-hander. the free-spending rangers passed on him at #24 and took a high-school two-way player.
i just have a hard time calling the cardinals cheap for making the same decision that five other organizations (with at least as much $$$ at their disposal) made after st louis picked, viz.: porcello is amazingly talented, but he's asking for too much money.
by lboros on
Jun 8, 2007 1:27 PM EDT
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Good point.
Perhaps this is what Luhnow meant by his cryptic reference to being "good citizens:"
With the high school players though, after a certain point it takes a lot of money to convince these guys not to go to school. That does become a consideration. We're trying to be a good citizens and stick to our budget and do all the things that will ultimately help stabilize the economics of the draft and we did.
by Titus Pullo on
Jun 8, 2007 1:35 PM EDT
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Lboros
Even if Porcello wasn't an option due to $$$, do you think Kozma was really the best choice for the Cardinals?
by azruavatar on
Jun 8, 2007 1:35 PM EDT
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i have no basis for knowing
to the extent i have any opinion at all, it's because i read something that kevin goldstein or jim callis or somebody like that said --- and while i respect those guys as pros, i also respect the pros who are working for the cardinals. if the opinion of the cardinals' pros differs from the opinion of Baseball America's pro and Baseball Prospectus' pro and ESPN's pro . . . . which opinion do i believe? i don't know --- none of these professionals is right 100 percent of the time, and frankly i have no idea whether goldstein makes better judgments than callis, nor whether either one of them makes better judgments than the scouts and development executives they critique.
that would make an interesting study.
bottom line: i have no opinion about whether kozma was the right pick or the best pick, because i know almost nothing about the players who were available to them. everything i know, i know from BA or BP or a source like that --- that's useful information, but in my opinion it's not gospel truth. i do know that the cardinals' farm system is in better shape since this team took over control. so they have earned some credit in my book.
regarding porcello --- even the cardinals' own people acknowledge that he's got a better talent profile than kozma, but by their own admission they weren't willing to pay the price. fine; that's their decision, and that's their reason. several other organizations made the same determination. now the proof will be in the putting. if this draft doesn't produce some decent players, and doesn't continue the overall upward trend in the farm system, the critics will have been proven out. but at this point, nothing is proven --- at least, not to me.
those who follow amateur baseball and scouting more closely than i, and who are better informed than i, might feel confident doling out criticism right now. but if that criticism is based solely on the opinions of kevin goldstein, john sickels, jim callis, et al --- well, then i'm still skeptical. it has yet to be proven that those guys are better judges of talent than the cardinals' scouting team.
by lboros on
Jun 8, 2007 2:14 PM EDT
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WS
by billyhoyel on
Jun 8, 2007 1:00 PM EDT
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Confirms my feeling
by nycbirdo on
Jun 8, 2007 10:35 AM EDT
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Isn't he a Boras client?
by cardsgirl95 on
Jun 8, 2007 10:42 AM EDT
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what?
i don't think it's a situation like with eli, where he didn't want to go to the chargers, period. the fact that he's a boras guy, and talented, just means he's going to want more money than kozma. and that's why the cards didn't draft him. signability = money. same thing, and yes, the only issue.
by nycbirdo on
Jun 8, 2007 10:56 AM EDT
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After this offseason debacle...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on
Jun 8, 2007 11:22 AM EDT
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You are right
by cardsgirl95 on
Jun 8, 2007 1:48 PM EDT
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On Boras
"Overall, Kozma projects as a utility-infielder type in the majors. That's useful, but it's not first-round stuff. With the Cardinals' resources and solid relationship with Scott Boras, there was really no reason to pass on Rick Porcello."
We have a solid relationship with Boras? I did not know that.
by ncgostl on
Jun 8, 2007 2:40 PM EDT
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see the posts above
by nycbirdo on
Jun 8, 2007 2:43 PM EDT
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I can't bitch too much about Porcello
by mikedallas23 on
Jun 8, 2007 11:24 AM EDT
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Forgot to add
by mikedallas23 on
Jun 8, 2007 11:27 AM EDT
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Chicago Trib points out that this draft
Many, many teams passed on Boras clients but the Tigers didn't. The Tigers are willing to spend cash on what they consider bigtime draftpicks.
One ESPN guy calls him a "Franchise arm" but how knows?
I didn't know that Porcello has committed to attend North Carolina.
by sdrone on
Jun 8, 2007 4:07 PM EDT
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With the "signing deadline"
In my opinion, the "success" of this year's draft will come in today's rounds... drafting enough good players increases the chances that one or two of them will make it all the way to the bigs.
I gave up on the ESPN telecast immediately after the Cards' pick. Did the Cardinals ever turn Keith Law down for a job or something? That guy never has anything good to say about the organization... who messed in his kit?
by The Ol Goaler on
Jun 8, 2007 10:43 AM EDT
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re: pick for not signing a player
The new rules even give you a compensation pick at the end of third round if you don't sign a third-round pick. That is what really bothers me about the Cardinals not stepping up to pick Harvey at that point.
by nmstar on
Jun 8, 2007 11:05 AM EDT
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some notable 2d-day picks
2005
nick stavinoha (7th rd)
adam daniels (15th rd)
shawn garceau (20th rd)
jaime garcia (22d rd)
kenny maiques (3th rd)
2006
allen craig (8th rd)
pj walters (11th rd)
jonathan edwards (14th rd)
tommy pham (16th rd)
amaury marti (18th rd)
luke gregerson (28th rd)
by lboros on
Jun 8, 2007 11:07 AM EDT
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New rules
by awpierce on
Jun 8, 2007 11:09 AM EDT
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true statement, but...
This year's draft was regarded, from what I have read, as an above average class. If next year's class is below average maybe you are a getting a pick 10 or 15 picks below what you had the previous year at worst.
I think the bigger issue in not signing the guy is not getting the year of development. Just my $.02
by nmstar on
Jun 8, 2007 11:22 AM EDT
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He does seem to hate the Cards, doesn't he
by cardsgirl95 on
Jun 8, 2007 1:40 PM EDT
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Does anyone think
by 10worldchamps on
Jun 8, 2007 10:56 AM EDT
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That loss in Memphis last night was
He only needed 100 pitches to get through 7 innings. I certainly don't know but after reading Dyar Miller's comments from a few days ago, I just have to wonder if Reyes is throwing any 2-seam fastballs.
by azruavatar on
Jun 8, 2007 11:00 AM EDT
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Reyes
Doesn't specify 2-seamers, but with the ground-outs, it's possible he's working on the pitch. You'd have to think, more outings like this and he'll have to get called back up at some point. Especially after Wells loses another 5 or 10.
by jomfa on
Jun 8, 2007 11:29 AM EDT
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The game was in Albuquerque
by player2bnamedl8r on
Jun 8, 2007 12:32 PM EDT
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you're right -- misspoke
by azruavatar on
Jun 8, 2007 1:13 PM EDT
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Draft 101
I understand the value per dollar approach teams sometimes take in the draft, but what I don't understand is how Luhnow and Co. could have simply missed the new rules on draft picks. Given that Kozma is a safe sign who isn't worth the 18th pick and Russell is a tough sign who is worth roughly the 18th pick, it makes a lot more sense to draft Russell 18th than Kozma. If they don't sign Russell now, they get nothing. If had drafted him 18th, they would get an 18A (19th) pick next year. This draft is exactly like their safe (and poor) drafts in the late 90's. What happened to new thinking and taking advantage of the rules?
by putmeincoach on
Jun 8, 2007 11:30 AM EDT
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Sounds
by awpierce on
Jun 8, 2007 11:41 AM EDT
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it's not as if they knew ahead of time
makes more sense to me this way: they make sure they get a decent return on the #1 pick, and they gamble with a high risk / high reward on a lesser pick. seems logical to me.
by lboros on
Jun 8, 2007 11:48 AM EDT
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They wanted Kozma..
by guayzimi on
Jun 8, 2007 11:46 AM EDT
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Completely False
The Cards in the late 90's were among the BEST teams in baseball in drafting.
Goold's recent bolg talks about the USA Today Sports Weekly and the Cards results in drafting rounds 1 to 5 for the last ten years. The Cards were #6 in games played and #15 in innings pitched, hardly "poor" results.
And when you factor in the USA Today did not extend beyond the 5th round, they left out the best player in baseball, drafted in the 13th round in 1999. They were number 6 in games played WITHOUT Albert; they are number 2 overall (for the period of drafts from 1995 to 2005, with stats to the end of 2005) with Albert.
So what fans perceive to be true about the Cards' drafts and the actual results are like night and day. The Cards in the time under Walt have been one of the MOST productive teams in baseball at producing performance at the major league level.
Dave
by Sydney dave on
Jun 8, 2007 12:04 PM EDT
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You must not get the USA Today sports weekly
Kennedy, Ankiel, Drew, Duncan, Molina are fine players produced through those drafts. Ankiel, Drew and Duncan were all "over-slot" players signed for big money and Kennedy was a successful and cheap first rounder. Care to guess at how all the safe (cheap) players from those teams fared?
I look at Kozma as the same type of pick as Kennedy- which isn't horrible, but it only makes sense if you don't factor in the new rule.
by putmeincoach on
Jun 8, 2007 12:55 PM EDT
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I believe that is wrong to recall Reyes...
I hope Reyes rewardes them the way he is showing in his two past starts.
GO CARDS!!!!
by SuperSeve on
Jun 8, 2007 11:45 AM EDT
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A different perspective from Hardcore Legend?
Thanks!
by nycardfan on
Jun 8, 2007 11:52 AM EDT
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maybe
by Jtip20 on
Jun 8, 2007 12:00 PM EDT
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perhaps
by slochaos on
Jun 8, 2007 12:14 PM EDT
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i agree with you
by lboros on
Jun 8, 2007 12:24 PM EDT
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By that, I take it you mean
by Titus Pullo on
Jun 8, 2007 1:25 PM EDT
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esp cocky
by lboros on
Jun 8, 2007 1:28 PM EDT
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that beg's the question
I think Reyes may have a know-it-all aloofness that may rub them the wrong way.
by _pistol_ on
Jun 8, 2007 2:11 PM EDT
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speaking of which ....
by jeff abs on
Jun 8, 2007 2:32 PM EDT
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Ankiel had a plus-plus curveball
by Valatan on
Jun 8, 2007 4:58 PM EDT
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not just larussa and/or duncan
by MarcGldstn on
Jun 8, 2007 12:22 PM EDT
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Maybe we aren't looking
Just think if all Cardinals were evaluated with the same yard stick Reyes has been.
On another note Pujols is over 900 OPS...and if you look last 30 days the MV3 look like it's 2004 again. Just don't look at Duncan.
by Harknights on
Jun 8, 2007 1:08 PM EDT
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but they're not saying
and he's just not a groundball pitcher.
by lboros on
Jun 8, 2007 1:13 PM EDT
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That would say a lot about
by jillsinmo on
Jun 8, 2007 1:12 PM EDT
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A few thoughts
Ick, out of time, more later.
by joker24 on
Jun 8, 2007 1:45 PM EDT
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I'd ALMOST
Other clubs with better "revenue streams" than the Cardinals passed on Porcello, too... but it'll be at least five years before anybody knows whether that was a mistake, or not!
by The Ol Goaler on
Jun 8, 2007 4:00 PM EDT
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There's an article up
76% of those in Porcello's category (high velocity right-handed pitchers) made it past AA, but they don't say how many made it to the majors.
by SleepyCA on
Jun 8, 2007 1:56 PM EDT
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Porcello...
On the other hand, signing him to a major league contract forces an accelerated schedule and could hurt him.
I don't see why everyone is approaching this as a cheapness issue. Many teams passed on this guy and took someone of lesser talent. Is everyone cheap?
by guayzimi on
Jun 8, 2007 2:11 PM EDT
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accelerated schedule
by ncgostl on
Jun 8, 2007 2:32 PM EDT
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Yeah that's my understanding...
Few others seem to care too much about this, but to me, it seems like something that should be a real consideration. I mean, these are high school kids. The SLOWEST acceptable development timetable would be rookie ball or A ball this year, high A or AA next year, then a year of AAA, then onto the show. If the kid struggles or is injured and can't be a major league starter by 2010, what does the big league team do? Put him in the back of the bullpen like a rule 5 project? That's not a good way to develop a young starter.
Sure Tim Lincecum and Verlander and others have raced through in a year or less, but they're the exceptions... Look at Wainwright. He was a high school kid picked exactly in Porcello's slot in 2000 - granted he wasn't nearly as heralded - but only now in 2007 has he surfaced as a starter.
They're might be some exceptions to the options clock I'm not aware of, but I don't think you can get any more than four option years max, and in most cases it's three.
by guayzimi on
Jun 8, 2007 3:35 PM EDT
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Thanks
by ncgostl on
Jun 8, 2007 3:51 PM EDT
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just for reference
only two high-school pitchers from the 2003 draft are currently in the majors: chad billingsley, who was taken #24 overall, and the mariners' ryan feierabend, a 3d-rounder.
billingsley is currently being used as a middle reliever. the other guy has made 2 starts this year.
by lboros on
Jun 8, 2007 4:10 PM EDT
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This isn't the NFL
And I don't understand yesterday's posts lamenting the Kozma/Mark Loretta comp. Just a little over half of first-round picks even make it to the big leagues. So we will be very lucky if our #1 develops into Loretta, who by the way is a 13-year veteran middle infielder, two-time All-Star with a .299 career AVG.
Even the NFL draft, with all it's hoopla and much easier-to-project talent is largely a crap shoot. Baseball is that crap shoot x100. Whether you're Jeff Luhnow or the brain trust at Baseball America, comparing a HS shortstop from Iowa City and a college pitcher from Wake Forrest is damn near impossible.
by bgodar on
Jun 8, 2007 3:28 PM EDT
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Greg Peavey
by KeepOnRolen on
Jun 8, 2007 2:05 PM EDT
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Young Pitchers
When Wainwright was with the Atlanta Braves, their managers said in 2005 that he had great promise but needed to be handled with some care because he had a history of elbow and shoulder soreness that could easily lead to injury if he was overextended. The Cards have known this all along about Wainwright. And yet, in his second outing they made him throw 114 pitches to finish the 7th inning because they feared their bullpen at that time. Wainwright had pitched beautifully in spring training and at the beginning of the season. After that game, as we all know, he began to have difficulties. Since he said his arm has recovered, he's pitched well again (except for last night, which I hope was just an off night for him and not an indication that he has arm soreness again). In any case, the decision to make a new pitcher with a known history of elbow and shoulder soreness/injuries throw 114 pitches his second time out shows either extreme carelessness or complete ignorance about how young arms, especially arms prone to injury, should be gradually conditioned.
Second, it was Jim Edmonds and not the coaches who identified what was wrong with Wainwright's delivery after his soreness cleared up. After Edmonds spoke with Wainwright between innings and told him to concentrate on not rushing his delivery, Wainwright's pitching changed dramatically. The fact that LaRussa and Duncan couldn't see this simple problem--he needed to slow down his delivery-- tells me that they are not good at coaching young players. Maybe we should have Edmonds work more with young players since he seems to have more luck with them!
by nycardfan on
Jun 8, 2007 2:53 PM EDT
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Agree completely
But young player development would seem to require different skills, and I just don't think Dave is good at it.
So, um... Jim Edmonds for pitching coach?
by sgfcards on
Jun 8, 2007 3:16 PM EDT
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saw this
With four converted relievers in their starting rotation, the Cards have seen their starting pitcher go deeper than seven innings just once this season. Brad Thompson went 7 1/3 innings in Colorado on May 31.
The full article is here.
My reaction was: Huh? Can this be right? Only once in 57 games did the starter take the hill in the 8th inning? I guess it goes hand-in-hand with lboros chart at the top of the article, as well as the 5 games under .500 record. Anybody know how many times a Cardinals starter went out for the 8th inning in 2006?
And regarding the draft: Keith Hernandez, 42nd round draft pick in 1971, co-MVP in 1979. It's not all about the first rounders. Maybe they missed with Kozma, maybe not. If they did, let's hope they have truer aim in subsequent rounds.
I'm with the rest of you that haven't seen Kozma play. I did watch the MLB.com scouting tape on him after he was picked -- the kid looks sturdy. I'm willing to give the front office the benefit of the doubt on this one.
TSF
by TedSimmonsFan on
Jun 8, 2007 3:37 PM EDT
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when your bullpen
by SleepyCA on
Jun 8, 2007 4:57 PM EDT
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Last year's stats
by nycardfan on
Jun 8, 2007 5:35 PM EDT
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Interesting from Keith Law
1B Mark Hamilton is tearing the cover off the ball. What's his potential?
Keith Law
Above-average bat at first, .280/.360/.500 type of guy, maybe a little more power if it all clicks. I'm pretty high on him, obviously.
by Carps on
Jun 8, 2007 4:37 PM EDT
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Another one
I'm always hearing about espn expert x disagreeing with expery y, but him being in the minority. ex: Felix making it through the season. Anyway, is their ANYTHING at all that all the experts are in agreement over?
Will Carroll
That Kip Wells is done.
by Carps on
Jun 8, 2007 4:41 PM EDT
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Last years starters compared to this years...
In 2006, Carpenter averaged 6.9 IP (32 games, 221 IP)
In 2006, Suppan averaged 5.2 IP (36, games, 199 IP)
***Note: by this time last year, Suppan had not gone beyond 7 innings pitched.
So everyone but Wellemeyer seems to be keeping up with Suppan's average from last year.
Also, going beyond 7 innings was not that common: Suppan only completed 8 innings four times during the season and Carp completed 8 innings six times (he finished 9 innings four times in the later part of the season, but he's a horse).
I also wanted to note something abouth earned runs. Many fans seem to think the world is ending when we allow 4 runs or more and that our rotation is doomed. This year, I believe Suppan has allowed 4 or more earned runs 6 times. Looper, Wainwright, and Thompson all have better records than that (I don't know Reyes' numbers), at least in terms of that measurement.
In 2006, Carpenter had allowed more than 4 ER in four games by about this time of the season (between 4 and 7 ER in those games). He allowed 4 or more ER in twelve games during the entire season. In 2006, Suppan allowed 4 or more earned runs in ten games during the entire season (between 4 and 9 earned runs in those games).
Let's just give our young players a chance to settle in. Their arms aren't as conditioned as Suppan's and Carpenter's were and they aren't doing too badly when you compare the numbers.
by nycardfan on
Jun 8, 2007 5:25 PM EDT
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I agree with a lot of what I read above
Scouting these guys requires an insane amount of tea leaf reading. Old scouts brag about having a tenth of their recommendations reach the majors. Blowing up at the organization before a single one of these guys has played an inning of professional ball is slightly premature.
by Valatan on
Jun 8, 2007 5:29 PM EDT
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bullpen help
I find this move kinda strange with how solid the pen has been so far.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2898087
by capeboda on
Jun 8, 2007 5:54 PM EDT
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I think it's just what we need
by nycardfan on
Jun 8, 2007 6:01 PM EDT
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Does this
I'd think so...if they believe he can be a solid 8th inning guy.
We'll see.
by player2bnamedl8r on
Jun 8, 2007 6:15 PM EDT
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Thanks lboros...
by 1985kid on
Jun 8, 2007 6:23 PM EDT
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Parcival signing official
by nycardfan on
Jun 8, 2007 6:31 PM EDT
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Percival to the rotation!
by joker24 on
Jun 8, 2007 6:46 PM EDT
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pride cometh before a fall
Walt, or the owners need to step in and make them all at least agree to work together. granded you can't make people like each other, but at least they should be able to work together. the owners got Rolen and Tony to talk things out in spring. I'm shocked with the current record the Cards have and the rotation they keep putting out there that they'd let a talent as great as Anthony could be, be sent back to memphis just because of good old stubborn pride.
if the Cards miss the playoffs, fingers need to be pointed right at everyone involved in the Anthony situation. everyone is wrong. Tony, Dave, Walt, the owners, Anthony. and it's high time they all admit it and get back to playing baseball. the brew crew has come back to earth. the division is the Cards for the taking. but they can't take anything with that pathetic rotation.
by gdm426 on
Jun 8, 2007 6:48 PM EDT
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