slave to the save

by lboros on Jun 25, 2007 9:05 AM EDT in St. Louis Cardinals News

after shane victorino's game-breaking double in the 8th yesterday, brian gunn (of redbird nation fame, for any who don't know) paid a rare but welcome visit to the VEB game thread with a concise critique of la russa's bullpen usage --- or mis-usage, in this case. suffice to say that flores was not the right choice there, as a number of VEBbers pointed out in real time. which reliever was the right choice? i'm with brian on this one:

I know it's too much to ask of an old schooler like La Russa, but frankly Isringhausen should've been brought in to face Victorino -- bases juiced, tie game, 8th inning: that's when you use your ace (especially since Izzy probably wouldn't be facing a save situation today anyway).

i'd even take it a little further, and suggest that izzy ought to have come in to face chase utley. just to re-set this: after jimmy rollins led off with a hit in the 8th inning of a tie game, michael bourn came to the plate and the phils' two best hitters --- utley and howard --- were on deck and in the hole, respectively. at that moment, under a logical system of bullpen deployment, the best pitcher in the bullpen --- izzy --- would have started getting warmed up. indeed, there should have been a superfluous trip to the mound by the catcher, and if necessary another by dave duncan, to ensure that izzy would be warm in time to face utley. not a save situation? so what; as brian pointed out, izzy almost surely wouldn't be getting a save opportunity anyway --- there was only a half-inning window in which it could happen, ie only if the cards took the lead in the bottom of the 8th. if they took the lead in the 9th inning or later the game would be over; they'd walk off with a win. so holding izzy back to protect a lead was a pretty low-percentage play; he almost surely was going to be brought in to preserve a tie in the 9th inning or later. why not, then, bring him in to preserve a tie in the 8th, with the phils' most dangerous hitters coming up?

izzy already has logged four outings this season of 1.2 innings or longer, with no loss of effectiveness --- he's combined for 7.1 innings in those games, yielding just 4 hits and 1 run. and in one instance, he came back the next day to pitch one inning for the save. nor has is'hausen suffered any loss of success in non-save situations: he has thrown 12.1 innings in non-save conditions and allowed just 1 run. this isn't really a critique of la russa; as brian intimated, that's not the way the game is managed in this day and age. i also know that the boston red sox, at bill james' behest, experimented with their bullpen in 2003, eschewing the now-traditional "designated closer" role for a theory based on situations and matchups. the experiment failed, deepening the already entrenched belief that proper bullpen management requires reserving your best reliever out for save situations. but it's a bogus theory, and one that only recently (the last 20 years or so) became universal. as rich lederer put it two years ago at baseball analysts:

They used to call these relievers firemen rather than closers. Their job was to put out the fire when needed, not necessarily to literally close out the game. . . . . Choosing your best reliever to come in and close out an inning during a threat in the seventh or eighth--even if it means using a lesser option in the ninth--is generally a more prudent use of your bullpen than calling upon your so-called closer for the last three outs of the game when nobody is on base.

yesterday provided an object lesson: as the phillie threat mounted and the game slipped away, the cardinals' best relief pitcher --- nearly unhittable this year --- never even took off his jacket. i used to rail about this type of thing often but rarely do anymore because the "saves-only" theory of closers is so blindly and rigidly practiced; there isn't a manager in the big leagues who would have gone to isringhausen in that situation. they all would have sat there and let their third or fourth or fifth best reliever decide the game. nutty.

* * * * * * * * *

i haven't watched the entire start yet, but from what i can tell kip wells made one major adjustment yesterday: he stopped trying to pitch to spots and started throwing everything right over the plate. if you have a chance, go back and look at where stinnett was set up yesterday. most of the time, you'll see the catcher shift position from pitch to pitch --- inside corner, outside corner, off the outside corner if they're trying to get somebody to chase. but stinnett hardly moved yesterday when wells was on the mound; he just sat there behind the plate most of the time, dead center. that's a sensible approach with wells, whose pitches have so much natural movement that they'll end up off-center even if he throws it right down the pipe. the other change he seemed to make --- again, i haven't run the chart yet, so this is just an eyeball-level impression --- is that he seemed to pitch more off his fastball, particularly against the weaker hitters in the philadelphia order. when facing utley and howard, he led with his off-speed pitches --- changeups and curves --- but he started almost everybody else off with a fastball, sometimes two or three fastballs, and then reached into his well-stuffed quiver and shot off a change or a hook or a sinker to get the guy out. i've charted this guy all year, and he can make the ball do so many things that he sometimes makes the game too complicated; he tries to use every trick in his bag to keep hitters off-balance, but only ends up unbalancing himself. i think his changeup and curve are far more effective when hitters only see them once an at-bat --- both pitches really come as a shock, throw guys' timing way off. and when he uses them selectively, wells doesn't have to throw either pitch to the perfect location; he can throw them to the fat part of the plate and let their (off-)speed, rather than placement, do the work.

it was only one outing, and a short one at that; he did give up two walks in five innings, and he did get tagged for a triple and a couple of long, loud outs. but for just the third time all year, wells yielded fewer than 3 runs in a start; if not for the rain delay, he probably would have recorded his fourth "quality start" of the season. you gotta start somewhere.

to read:

ever wonder how ernie broglio's career ended? he tells the la times: "I asked the clubhouse guy if he had any lighter fluid. I took all my underpants, my jockstrap, shirts and a bunch of other stuff, piled them in the middle of the floor and lit them on fire."
the cardinals could fixed their pitching staff with this guy for $35 million or so . . . .
mike carminati notes some history anthony reyes hopes note to make

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Comments

One thing that bothered me last year

about Flores' pattern of use was that he was seeing a lot of time against RHB. Part of the problem was a sad rotation, but TLR continued to use Flores even though his line against RHB was terrible. Last year he was servicable against LHB but that isn't the case anymore. What bothers me further is that Jocketty felt the need to sign Flores for 2 years rather than just go through the year to year arbitration. They should seriously consider demoting him when TJ comes back and holding onto Cate.

I miss the Kline/King 2004 bullpen. Hell, I miss the whole 2004 team.

by azruavatar on Jun 25, 2007 9:30 AM EDT reply actions

not sure if they can demote him...

does he have any options necessary to be demoted? and also, TJ might just be the "player to be named later" in the Maroth deal. (although, on the other hand, so might Flores).

Duncan 4 Cleanup

by SmashedAtoms on Jun 25, 2007 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions

I don't think the Cardinals included any

major league players in the trade (unless it was Cate). I suspect it's a different relief pitcher a little bit removed from the big leagues (it sounds like the Maroth deal was in part a salary dump for the Tigers). If Flores doesn't have options, I think he'd probably make it through waivers given how craptacular he's been last year and this. He was ok as the second LOOGy in the pen that doesn't get much usage but this year he's just been downright bad.

And if you look at Cate's 2006 splits -- his 2007 splits are useless since he was starting much of the time and that isn't his MLB role -- you'll see a lefty reliever that really doesn't have a discernible platoon split.

by azruavatar on Jun 25, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions

That is true...

I just thought it was suspect that TJ went on the DL right around the time the Maroth deal was announced. Then they claimed the list of 3 pitchers contained one currently on the 40-man....

But yes, you're right, they're now saying Maroth was a salary dump, so it's probably a minor leaguer.

On Flores though... I don't think he's SO bad... just like anyone else in the bullpen/bench, they excel in the situations they're put in when TLR uses them correctly. When he doesn't... well... you get yesterday's game.

However, I do agree with the hope that TJ comes back soon.

Duncan 4 Cleanup

by SmashedAtoms on Jun 25, 2007 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions

classic case of brain being 5 pages ahead....

"TJ went on the DL right around the time..."

Not officially on the DL at that time... but when the P-D "leaked" that he was headed there - found that suspect.

Anyways, my bad - probably should proofread better.

Duncan 4 Cleanup

by SmashedAtoms on Jun 25, 2007 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions

Just checked

he still isn't on the DL. We currently have 26 players on the 25 man roster.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 25, 2007 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions

Remember

in spring training when LaDunc kept touting how Flores could get lefties AND righties out?

It boggled my mind then and it still does today.

Now, with Tyler on the DL it makes Tony rely on Flores that much more. Ugh.

by silent_bob on Jun 25, 2007 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions

Flores

He was dynamite in Spring Training and early on this season.

by liam on Jun 25, 2007 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions

and what a painful regression

it has been to the mean.

by azruavatar on Jun 25, 2007 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions

Kip

I missed most of the game I decided to go fishing instead of watching kip pitch.I.ve seen him lose enough this year but from what I saw he looked impressive.

by Calhoun on Jun 25, 2007 9:30 AM EDT reply actions

brock for broglio

My dad vividly remembers himself and his father hearing the "breaking news" of the trade on the car radio. My dad said that they (and most Cardinal fans at the time) couldn't believe the Cardinals were giving up a player considered an ace pitcher for a player nobody had really heard of.

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jun 25, 2007 9:34 AM EDT reply actions

I would've just kept Thompson in to face Victorino

Thompson was pitching well, he is alot less likely to walk, hit the batter, or throw a wild pitch in that situation than Flores is. I would've just let him stay in there and get out of the jam himself.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 25, 2007 9:49 AM EDT reply actions

Me too..

... also to remember is that Rolen contributed to keep the inning alive, bobbling the ball from his glove.

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Jun 25, 2007 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions

I suppose that's one interpretation

OR...you could say that Rolen kept the game tied with his terrific snare of that shot down the line, thereby keeping the runner from scoring.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jun 25, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions

That's definitely it

that was a play that we would only "expect" Rolen to make. There's no reason to blame him for that. He saved the team a run.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 25, 2007 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions

The problem with Flores

I agree that Izzy was the best option then. For some reason, I believe Tony has a tendency to pencil him in the 9th - 10th innings in tie games.

In defense of Flores, I thought he started out the year well - or at least average - but has faltered with over use. From April to May to June his ERA has gone from 2 to 5 to 9.

Still, the stats suggest Flores is struggling because he is pitching better against righties than lefties. In every category - ERA, Ks, BA, Slugging, BB/9 - Flores is better against righties. Both lines aren't great. But, compared to his performance last year, it's clear his performance against lefties is what has gone downhill. Last years lefties had an OPS of .685, this year .867.

by enoscountry on Jun 25, 2007 10:18 AM EDT reply actions

my apologies

I see arzuavatar pointed this out above.

by enoscountry on Jun 25, 2007 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions

looks like

we are out of the mix on Buehrle.. it must be nice having two of the richest teams in baseball playin keep away with you...

by bennythejet on Jun 25, 2007 11:20 AM EDT reply actions

I can't see Yankee's

I can't see the Yankee's having enough prospects for the trade. Maybe some who knows more than I can shed some light.

by gonzostl on Jun 25, 2007 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions

The Red Sox apparently

don't want to part with the pieces Kenny Williams thinks it will take for Mark.

Hmm.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 25, 2007 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions

Brewers

According to foxsports.com the Brewers have thrown the hat in the ring.... i really dont see that happening...

by bennythejet on Jun 25, 2007 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions

That's very insightful about Flores vs. Izzy

in looking at bp's #'s this morning, it's obvious that Flores was LaRussa's worst choice. Izzy was probably the best but brian was right, there was no way LaRussa would use him then. So why not Franklin or Springer, our next best relievers? Franklin's good for a ground ball, Springer for a strikeout. Or, as a couple of people had pointed out above, why not stay w/ Thompson w/ the bases loaded? Once there were 2 out, he could have still used Izzy rather than Flores and had him work the 9th under pretty normal conditions.

I'm normally a Flores fan but he's been awful recently. I think that's mostly due to overuse that can be attributed to problems in the starting rotation. Nevertheless, he was LaRussa's worst choice there and, as brian correctly points out, has been used in the highest leverage situations of anyone outside of Izzy. That makes no sense. Maybe he's pitching poorly b/c LaRussa's simply asking more from him than he's able to do!

by chuckb on Jun 25, 2007 11:23 AM EDT reply actions

Just more insufferable

stubbornness from TLR. Really, for a guy with a rep as a quick thinker and innovator, sometimes reality has to beat on his skull for weeks if not months before he'll start to believe his own eyes.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 25, 2007 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions

Thinking about it last night

the turning point in the game was in the 5th inning. Kip Wells wild pitch/passed ball.

Kip throws that ball in the dirt, the runner they were trying to bunt over gets to 2nd base. The next batter moves him over and then the next singles him in.

Allowing them to tie the game there keeps LaRussa from using Izzy in the 8th inning.

I know, I know, the Cardinals could have scored runs in other situations and broken the tie. I agree. However, looking back at what transpired, allowing the runner to get to 2nd changed the game.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 25, 2007 11:43 AM EDT reply actions

On another note

and I hope this doesn't completely violate what Larry wrote about a couple of days ago but, since it's used in a different spirit, I'm going to use my own judgement and include it.

mlbtraderumors pointed out that Mike Maroth has a blog -- it includes his bio, his career achievements, and personal stuff about his family. It's not like the junk that was posted the other day about Reyes but it does have a lot of personal info -- his favorite TV shows and other stuff like that. It's a pretty good way to get to know our new Cardinal -- he seems like a really great guy. There's a nice little farewell to all the Tiger fans, for example.

The link is http://www.marothbaseball.com/blog.asp

And, Larry, if this violates the guidelines, I apologize. I think it's a little different than the Reyes stuff but, if you don't want it here, please feel free to delete.

by chuckb on Jun 25, 2007 11:50 AM EDT reply actions

no violation at all

the distinction between this post, vs the objectionable one you are referring to: this post is not being offered in a derisive or hostile tone toward the player

by lboros on Jun 25, 2007 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions

Do they look like the cover of the

All American family poster or what. I hope the fans take to him because his website makes him seem like a real likable individual (I understand the bias there). Attractive wife, cute kids, plays baseball for a living. . .ummm what more could he want?

Welcome to Redbird Nation, Mike Maroth.

by azruavatar on Jun 25, 2007 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions

This is a very revealing comment

"When this road trip ends we will have spent 21 of 28 days on the road. The seven home games in the middle seemed to fly by. I feel like road trips can be exhaustive when we spend this many days on the road. Living out of a suitcase and being away from Brooke and the boys gets old. For Father's day, Brooke bought me a laptop to take on the road. The best thing about it is the built-in web camera. It allows me to not only talk to my family, but to actually see them live. When I talk to them it feels like we are together even if it's only for a few minutes. I get to see what the boys are up to and hear their voices. This technology has brought me close to them when I'm many miles away. I couldn't imagine playing years ago before computers and cell phones. It is easier to stay close with my family even when we're far apart."

That's awesome. Sign me up as a fan of Mr. Maroth and his down-to-earth priorities. Welcome to St. Louis, Mike!

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Jun 25, 2007 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Awesome

Even more excited to have him here. Let's hope his debut's a good one.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 25, 2007 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions

thanks for the link

The guy seems like a good guy. I will be anxious to see how he does for the Birds.

http://welcometojohnsonville.blogspot.com

by arthropodtodd on Jun 25, 2007 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions

totally agree

with all the others about maroth, how could u look at that and not think he will make a great cardinal? he seems to be a man of faith, and that should fit in very well with the current cards players

i think he will pitch about league average or so for us, maybe slightly better, and if he is just league average, he is better than what we have

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Jun 25, 2007 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions

Memphis stuff

I watched the game last night, most notably the two players that interest me most:

Rick Ankiel and Troy Percival

Rick has no patience and very little command of the strikezone. However, it really doesn't matter. His bat has that same explosiveness that Ryan Howard has. He makes contact, it goes a far way. His HR came on a pitch high and away out of the strikezone and he crushed it down the left field line onto the grassburm.

His next two ABs, he jumped all over fastballs and killed them to the wall in the outfield, both in rightcenterfield.

I know the Cardinals want him to get a better understanding of the strikezone and become a better hitter but I don't know that he is going to learn THAT much more from 200 more ABs in Memphis.

He plays MLB level defense and has more 'pop' and speed than John Rodriguez ever has. I think if Rick has another good week, he should get a callup, even if it means being a bench player.

Waiting until September is ridiculous. He's going to be 28 next month. Let's get as many years out of him as we can.

As for Percival, he's a gasthrower. He just fills the strikezone up with fastballs and then tosses in some breaking stuff. He intimidates hitters, as a good closer should. He was hitting 93 on the Memphis gun and the announcers said that the gun is always slow down there.

Walt said in yesterday's broadcast that Troy would pitch Sunday and Monday and the Cardinals would decide from there. There really isn't much of a decision to make. Call him up. He's better than any of the young guys we've been calling up, Cavazos, Cate, Jiminez, etc.

If they do call him up, he won't pitch 3 nights in a row, so Wednesday would be the earliest we'd see him pitching for the Cards.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 25, 2007 11:54 AM EDT reply actions

Are you willing to lose Ankiel after all this?

Because when he gets to the majors, he likely will be exposed, as pitchers start throwing more and more breaking balls and off speed stuff at him while he is looking yard every time. If he struggles, he can't be sent down. Unless he has Vladimir Guerrero-level hand-eye coordination, he needs to learn how to recognize the strike zone before he starts playing everyday in the bigs.

by Valatan on Jun 25, 2007 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions

Lose him for what?

At what point do the Cardinals say 'sink or swim'? Ankiel isn't getting any younger and they are going to have the PAY him next off-season to keep him. He's going to start making arbitration money and at some point, shouldn't the Cardinals start getting a return on the nearly $6 million they've spent/are going to spend on Ankiel?

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 25, 2007 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Having the arbitration clock tick is all the more

reason not to call him up--that's based on MLB service. And I would imagine that he couldn't possibly garner that much in arbitration, considering his mixed, at best, MLB record

by Valatan on Jun 25, 2007 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Jimmy may not be back this season

if his leg does not get better. check out the article in the PD over the weekend. he's really worried about his pinched nerve. i think the Cards should wait till after the All Star break on Jimmy, and if he's not well, bring up Rick. i think Hardcore's right. will 200+ more at bats vs inferior pitching really help him? the Cards can't win with SO getting all the playing time in center. sooner rather than later he's going to stop hitting. the only reason he's starting all the time is he's hitting a little right now. by all reports Rick's a pretty good outfielder, something SO is not anymore.

give Jimmy's nerve time to heal, and if it's not any better, call up Rick.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 25, 2007 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions

ah, the classic

leveraging your closer debate. it should be common sense by now as it was back then. i guess common sense ain't all that common sometimes when it comes to tony.

Future Redbirds

by erik on Jun 25, 2007 12:04 PM EDT reply actions

in TLR's defense

Most other managers treat their "closers" the same way. I agree that it makes no common sense -- but this bit of common sense eludes more than Tony.

by tdawg on Jun 25, 2007 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree

few, if any, managers there would have used their closer. However, there's no excuse for not using Springer or Franklin.

by chuckb on Jun 25, 2007 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions

Or using Flores for the other 4 LH

batters that came up before that.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 25, 2007 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions

no kidding!

Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot??????

by chuckb on Jun 25, 2007 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions

Would you believe

that Flores has been better vs. righties than lefties this year? Or, more accurately, he's been worse vs. lefties.

AVG OBP SLG OPS K/9
vs. lefties .346 .393 .481 .874 6.94
vs. righties .303 .329 .455 .784 8.44

by chuckb on Jun 25, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Redbird Nation

Larry-

Thanks for pointing out the Briann Gunn comment in the main post. I usually do not read the game threads and would have missed seeing his post of you had not pointed it out. You have done a wonderful job carrying his torch and I enjoy reading your blog everyday.

by KY BirdsonBat on Jun 25, 2007 12:09 PM EDT reply actions

Yesterday was just so depressing.....

it was a game they should have been able to win. I'm baffled by the moves--especially the pitching moves and I think Rolen was pulled out of the game because he missed that play. Really, it would have been better to just go ahead and let Thompson get out of it, and if he didn't, he lost fair and square. But to get tagged by a loss because a relief pitcher WHO HASN'T been pitching well is brought in to put out the fire, wow. I think part of developing toughness in pitchers is trying to let them work out of their own messes--the results could have been better or the same with Brad in there, so why not?

by jillsinmo on Jun 25, 2007 1:05 PM EDT reply actions

He bruised his foot

w/ a foul ball

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/9DB39D79C27ADDB4862573050014CA4F ?OpenDocument

by chuckb on Jun 25, 2007 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions

Rolen

I assumed he was pulled because of his foot which he fouled a ball off of eariler in the game. The Post today said it was pretty sore.

by Carps on Jun 25, 2007 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions

Beat me to it.

and btw, earlier not eariler.

by Carps on Jun 25, 2007 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions

Maroth Blog

Houston Cardinal, thanks for the link to the Maroth blog. I concur that he seems like a good guy and his farewell to Detroit fans was very impressive, especially for this time and age in baseball. I encourage VEB readers to take a look at the Maroth blog; this is a quality guy. Let's hope that he can pitch.

by MortLA on Jun 25, 2007 1:15 PM EDT reply actions

Agreed

Take a look. He seems like a good guy, family man and all that. I was impressed by how much he cared about giving his best to help his team win. Bring that spirit with you, Mike, and you will find a home with the STL fans.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 25, 2007 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions

My $.02

I was actually at the game yesterday, (btw, one of the worst games I've ever actually sat through) and my thought at the time was along the lines of, "what the (expletive deleted) are they thinking?" I watched that particular section of the game this morning on DVR, to see if I still felt the same, and guess what? I do.

Personally, I see the argument for Izzy in that spot, but what I had a problem with was the intentional pass to Howard. At that point, there were two outs, with a runner on second base. You have a lefthanded hitter at the plate, and a lefty reliever in the pen. This particular pitcher is not good at getting out RH hitters, but he's still fairly good in a LOOGY role. Why, in that situation, would you put another runner on base on purpose? I understand they wanted BT to face the righty on deck, but if you pitch to Howard, the absolute worst he could do is a two run homer. By adding baserunners, you increase the amount of potential damage every hitter after him can do. Particularly when the hitter is a lefty who has, not a huge, but decent, left/right split, take your chances pitching to the man at the plate. I thought it was a terrible decision then, and I still think so now.

Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 25, 2007 1:21 PM EDT reply actions

see my above post

Flores has been terrible vs. lefties this year -- much worse than vs. righties. To me, Flores makes absolutely no sense in that inning. Izzy, Springer, Franklin or Thompson are all better options, IMO. So I say walk Howard and use one of those 4 vs. Rowand.

by chuckb on Jun 25, 2007 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Percival's role?

Would he become our 8th inning guy if successful? I don't see him necessarily pitching more than one inning, nor do I see someone with his ability being a situational guy.

If so, would this free up Franklin for a possible start? Just a thought.

by pitchout487 on Jun 25, 2007 1:39 PM EDT reply actions

I don't see any problem

with giving Franklin a spot start. I'm not sure he's the answer long term, but at least he has experience as a starter, thought he was signed exactly for that role-I have a real feeling this team is about to explode-like a volcano, with lava running in the streets, and a lot of folks on the team and in management are going to be gone.......they just can't go on with this dull, lifeless play, the crazy managerial moves, players in and out of the line-up and in and out of different positions, and please would someone in the dugout just smile? Once. Please.

by jillsinmo on Jun 25, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions

If Franklin gets to start

we've then gone to a 7 man rotation, unless Reyes gets sent down. Thompson and Wellemeyer have been too effective as of late to send back to the pen, Wells will be given atleast 1 more start, Wainwright is our ace right now. Looper is going to be back off the DL on time and Carpenter is setting up his rehab program today to get back to game pitching.

I'd imagine Carp is about 2 weeks away from returning with the way they are talking. He's meeting with Paletta today and he'll start throwing simulated games. 2 weeks of that and I bet he starts the 1st game after the ASB.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 25, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions

7 man rotation?

You are exactly right in that Wells/Wellemeyer are no better than a 6th or 7th starters. Plus, Wellemeyer has a sore right wrist from getting tea-bagged at first base by one of his former teammates on Wed night. This is the guy that we are going to start against the Mets in Shea? Since when did this become an acceptable option, rather than the only available option.

I would have no problem letting Franklin have a shot in place of either of those two.

The fact is that Carp is not back yet (I am also hoping for the 1st start after the AS break) and that we need to win some games and get closer to the Brewers before that point.

by pitchout487 on Jun 25, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions

wellemeyer too effective ?

his era as a starter is 5.24; he hasn't gone longer than 5 innings in any start, and hasn't got out of the 4th in 2 of his 5 starts; his whip as a starter is 1.500 . . . . . i know the rotation is bad, but even on this team you could hardly call wellemeyer indispensable

by lboros on Jun 25, 2007 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions

He's been better than Reyes

and Wells.

I'd rather see one of them leave the rotation than Wellemeyer. Atleast when he starts, there is a prayer we might win a game.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 25, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Reyes

Even Tony on his Sunday morning radio show said that Reyes isn't ready to be a big league pitcher. If Looper hadn't been injured, Reyes would still be in Memphis according to him.

So, I assume that once Looper comes off the DL, Reyes will be back down in Memphis.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 25, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions

My question with that...

Is what he's going to learn by dominating AAA again.

If he's ever going to learn how to pitch in the majors, he's going to have to do it against MLB hitters.

by whopperman on Jun 25, 2007 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions

And I stand by my statement

That this team will not be a playoff team without Reyes. If it's true that Reyes isn't a Major League pitcher then we wont be a playoff team with him either.

Reyes is the pivot point in Cardinal history. A large amount of what has happened before has lead to Reyes and what happens to this team in the future will be because of him.

Good or Bad I do believe that.

by Harknights on Jun 25, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions

Pivot point

couldn't trading Reyes have the same effect?

Getting value in return for him?

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 25, 2007 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Right on

I think we should be trying to move him. I don't know if he has any value on the market right now, but if we can get anything worthwhile lets take it and end the Anthony Reyes era.

by ZiggyG on Jun 25, 2007 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes it could

That might be it. That might be THE point. Again it could be for the best or for the worst. It might be flipping Reyes for Burhlie, possible I think...Reyes could go Haren from that point on and Burhlie could join Mulder in the pantheon of "well that didn't work out like we thought it would" moves...or he could be the new Bobby Witt and become another teams problem.

My point is that either it's him pitching or it's the booty we get for him will be our driving force for the next couple of years. Letting him die on the vine in AAA will result in the same for us.

I'm not going to say he is a good pitcher but we have to find out. All other moves are just trying to hope for 85 wins at the cost of wins in future seasons.

I believe this team can be good...very good...it just isn't right now. Reyes is the answer to why it can be very good and why it isn't good now.

by Harknights on Jun 25, 2007 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions

I truly hope

that this organization wouldn't have traded away Steve Carlton for a 3rd time. Mulder and Rick Wise, I get. I can't imagine Buehrle being the trifecta.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 25, 2007 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions

hardcore, the question isn't whether wellemeyer

has been better than reyes. there's no point in debating that one, because they have both stunk. i'm just questioning your statement, quoting your earlier post: "Thompson and Wellemeyer have been too effective as of late to send back to the pen."

i disagree with this, w/ respect to wellemeyer. he has been guilty of all the same sins wells and reyes have --- he doesn't go deep into games, he gives up too many baserunners and extra-base hits, he has a terrible walk/9 ratio. the only difference between him and them is that he has happened to get outstanding run support: the cardinals have averaged nearly 9 runs a game in his 5 starts. his two "wins" were a 5-inning, 3-run outing vs the rockies and a 5.1-inning, 4-run outing vs the angels. reyes and wells have each had half a dozen or more outings identical to wellemeyer's "wins," but the cards didn't score and so they show up as losses in the w-l column.

it doesn't mean wellemeyer has been a better pitcher; he's just been luckier.

by lboros on Jun 25, 2007 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions

lboros

after reading the article on padilla i looked at the stats of all the guys we at least had contact with last offseason, and at this point, i think we should be glad that we lost out on most of them

they fall into three categories:
decent
middle of the road
awful

in the decent category are meche, pettitte, marquis and lilly (these two are quickly heading downward, however)

in the middle of the road are batista, zito and suppan

and in the awful category are padilla, eaton, woody, ohka, and kipper

jason schmidt is in the incomplete file, but has been awful when pitching

so after seeing all these guys stats, have to say that there really isnt any of them that i am pissed about us not signing, and i am very thankful that we got beat out on schmidt

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Jun 25, 2007 2:49 PM EDT reply actions

Incomplete

Hmmm, I know it's generally not considered a player's fault when they are injured, so it may not be fair to judge their performance when they are. However from an investment standpoint, unless a club has injury insurance on the contract, an injured player is still a poor investment.

I think the FA pitcher market just reinforces the need for young arms.

The St Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champs!

by Zubin on Jun 25, 2007 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions

For Schmidt

they did extensive MRIs and had access to MRIs from years ago. They reported no changes. However, when the doctors opened his shoulder up, they described it as 'a mess'.

I wonder how long before teams ask for exploritory surgery before longterm contracts.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 25, 2007 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions

I'd say that right now

Schmidt's a disaster. He's been awful, he may be done for the season, and God knows what's going to happen in the next 2 years of his deal. Oh yeah, he's being paid $16 million for each year to pitch like this. Thank God he went out west!

by chuckb on Jun 25, 2007 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions

I, for one

am not surprised by the findings on Schmidt. The guy was losing velocity over time - and it is well-known in the medical community that MRI's are no more than 75% sensitive when imaging the shoulder joint.

The problem is the labrum. You cannot fully visualize the labrum with an MRI.

I've seen it many times - the patient gets an MRI, which is essentially negative. Pain continues with clicking, popping, weakness, etc. Surgeon finally agrees to surgery after therapy and cortisone injections don't work. Surgeon scopes the shoulder - bingo! labrum is torn, rotator cuff is hanging on by a thread.

The arthrogram is becoming more and more popular as the "gold standard" for ruling out injuries such as labral tears.

by silent_bob on Jun 25, 2007 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Flores vs. 1st batter

I just added a diary with the results into my investigation of Randy Flores's performance vs. the first batter he sees in a game.

Beware---it is quite gruesome, so be careful when viewing around small children or those with a delicate constitution.

The numbers still represent a relatively small smaple---the real awfulness has been in evidence over his last 26 appearances, representing about 1/3 of a full season---but it's been such sustained badness that you really have to wonder how much longer Tony can continue to be plug him into his current role.

by salvomania on Jun 25, 2007 3:01 PM EDT reply actions

Percival?

If Percival comes up and does a good job, does this put the nail in the coffin that Izzy might be expendable? I know a lot of folks on this sight think that he is one of our trade chips.

by Section8 on Jun 25, 2007 4:02 PM EDT reply actions

Expendable for what?

I imagine Walt will always listen to a deal.

by sdrone on Jun 25, 2007 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions

Percival

My thought is that if he comes up throwing smoke and proves he can be a dominant closer again, that he would be a great trade option for us. Tons of teams would love to have a go to guy in the 9th. But I'd be happy to just have another stopper in the pen to go along with Izzy, Springer and Franklin.

by paCardsFan on Jun 25, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions

BP on Daric Barton

(no link, regitsration required)

Daric Barton, 1B, Triple-A Sacramento (Athletics)

2006 was a bit of a lost season for Barton. Sent to Triple-A at 20, Barton got off to a slow start, and just when he started to heat up, he broke a bone in his elbow is a freakish collision on a pickoff play. Back at Sacramento and still young for the league, Barton hit just .221/.306/.314 in April, but he's been dialed in like no other hitter in the minors of late. After going 9-for-13 over the weekend, Barton is riding a 19-game hitting streak that includes nine straight multi-hit efforts in which he's gone 25-for-37. In one month, Barton has gone from .226/.344/.366 to .330/.424/.490, and while a brief experiment at third base was a complete disaster, the Athletics will likely be figuring out one way or another to get Barton's bat into the everyday lineup for 2008.

by salvomania on Jun 25, 2007 4:23 PM EDT reply actions

Oh, dear, you're

trying to make me cry......

by jillsinmo on Jun 25, 2007 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions

I wouldn't be surprised...

to see him called up soon. Dan Johnson was blocking him, but now he's slumping. The problem is they've got a bunch of 1b/DH types: Swisher, Johnson, Cust, Piazza (injured). I suppose they could bring him Barton up and rotate everybody around depending on who's hot...

It's really an unappealing brand of baseball to me. Big, unathletic, defense-challenged guys who can draw walks and hit an occasional home run. I hate that kind of baseball.

by guayzimi on Jun 25, 2007 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions

Would Tony LaRussa actually play this kid?

Daric Barton

by guayzimi on Jun 25, 2007 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions

Where?

he's not a catcher and we already have a 1b and LF. He has no real position in the NL as he's really a DH. Maybe he can beat out Jack Cust.

by chuckb on Jun 25, 2007 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions

Doubtful.......

But personally a like a player you can pick out of the crowd.

by jillsinmo on Jun 25, 2007 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions

didn't see this mentioned about FLO

but FLO is also the worst reliever in the bigs when it come to letting inherited runners score. something like 65%+ score on the guy. yet another reason why Tony should have gone with Springer, Franklin, or IZZY.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 25, 2007 4:37 PM EDT reply actions

hearing about Flores yesterday

reminds me of when I was in Houston last year and they put in Jorge Sosa in a key situation, only to have him serve up a longball.

oh hey, he's pitching tonight, isn't he?

Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 25, 2007 4:49 PM EDT reply actions

yes

and having a pretty solid year. Honestly, I liked him a lot last year and it was obvious that TLR did not. He would only put Sosa in mop up situations or in a very very difficult situation where he was bound to fail. I specifically remember making a comment last year saying that it seemed as if Tony was setting him up to fail.

I wish he was still a Cardinal.

by stltrav09 on Jun 25, 2007 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions

Don't be fooled...

Sosa is the same lousy pitcher he's always been.

.242 BABIP, 11 ER in his last two starts... After he dominates us tonight, he'll be terrible the rest of the way.

by guayzimi on Jun 25, 2007 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Yep....they

never did try him as a starter. Yes, some players seem to have LaDunc convinced thay can't do the job, and he proves 'em right by making sure they can't do the job. And, on KTRS during the rain delay they replayed the morning questions they do with LaRussa and of course Reyes name came up and of course he talked about how he has to throw the 2 seam fastball.....the same pitch that Dyar Miller said he can't throw...not won't throw, can't throw. Reyes ain't going to work it out here, because LaDunc is going to make sure he doesn't. Why, oh why, do they insist that he must do it exactly the way everyone else does? A different pitch that goes low in the strike zone may be the answer for him.....their plan isn't very successful this year. Time to try a new plan. But Flores will go in every game with base runners and every game to face a lefty when he is in a rough patch. Because that's what they see him as......they can't see what's really happening.

by jillsinmo on Jun 25, 2007 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions

Oh, I'm sorry for being so cranky today

but I just hate the unispired play and the wacky managing. I want to welcome Mr. Maroth to the Cardinals and hope he pitches well. He seems like a nice enough fellow. Good Luck, Mike!

by jillsinmo on Jun 25, 2007 5:16 PM EDT reply actions

The Cardinals believed to be offer

for Mark Buehrle is:

Reyes, Rodriguez + 2 prospects, per an AHN news story.

The problem Kenny Williams is going to run into is an extension. If Mark Buehrle REALLY wants to pitch in St. Louis, he can tell every team that tries to trade for him that he won't sign an extension. The packages presented to Williams will get smaller and smaller.

Williams may take his ball and go home at the point, keeping Buehrle, but it is always a possibility.

Then again, there is a GM out there dumb enough or desperate enough to dump 2 A+ prospects to rent Buehrle for 3 months.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 25, 2007 5:18 PM EDT reply actions

I'd bet the two prospects aren't great prospects

My guess is that Reyes is the headliner of this offer and you may be right that the offers will be limited by the fact that Buehrle's a free agent. It also could depend on whether or not the Cubs make Zambrano available which I think is increasingly unlikely. There still will be high demand and low supply for difference makers on the mound.

All in all, it's a pretty good offer that the Sox should consider. They could plug Reyes in the rotation now. Rodriguez, I think, does nothing for them but Reyes has potential, as they well know.

by chuckb on Jun 25, 2007 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions

I disagree

I think Reyes' trade value was highest before the season started. Since then, we've all seen his struggles. I think most of us here root for him and see his potential, but I just don't see him as a "centerpiece" to a deal where we would in return get an established veteran lefty starter in his prime.
Rodriguez is just a throw-in. Williams is a very aggressive GM and he's not going to settle for a struggling young right handed starter, AAAA outfielder, and solid but unspectacular AA prospect(s). I think the only way we get Buehrle is if it's Reyes plus one of Bryan Anderson / Jamie Garcia. I left Rasmus off because I don't see the Cards dealing if he is involved.

by Handsome B Wonderful on Jun 25, 2007 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions

Could Mather

be one?

Could slot in behind Konerko?

by Harknights on Jun 25, 2007 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions

Ankiel

if they don't call the guy up why not package him with something else? The guys hot right now I now its AAA but still maybe if you package him with reyes or something else you could get a decent return...

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap

by punchinjudy on Jun 25, 2007 5:22 PM EDT reply actions

A reliable source tells me

That there were scouts for the Giants and Nationals at Springfield Cardinals (AA) games in the last week or two. He said it was a bit strange, since neither team has an affiliate in the Texas League or makes a habit of coming to Sgf games. Any pitchers on those teams that might be available and would bring a Double-A bounty?

I have dreams of seeing Matty Mo back in a Cardinals uniform, though I don't know if he would help us a ton.

"I don't believe what I just saw!" ~ Jack Buck

by itsalemmon1019 on Jun 25, 2007 5:23 PM EDT reply actions

The Nationals?...

could be be seeing a return of the "GANGSTA B" from DC?....LOL

by Timbo02 on Jun 25, 2007 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions

Eh...

Every team sends scouts to look at pretty much all the AA and AAA teams at some point between opening day and July 15. That way, if they do have a trade possibility come up, they at least have somebody who's seen the teams. Then, if they need further evaluation, they'll send people again.

by whopperman on Jun 26, 2007 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions

There are scouts everywhere, all

the time....for all kinds of reasons. Maybe a deal could be about to happen. Maybe they're looking for Rule 5 or minor league free agents. Or maybe they were in town watching some local talent not yet pro and stopped in for a look see. When Michael Phelps pitched in a highschool game against my sons team there were more scouts than parents/students/ girlfriends in the stands. Phelps went to Notre Dame instead.....who knows. It could mean nothing or it could mean everything....

by jillsinmo on Jun 25, 2007 5:42 PM EDT reply actions