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Game 72 Open Thread: June 24, 2007

Boogstache_tiny by erik on in St. Louis Cardinals News

hamels

the kipper

9-3, 3.82

3-11, 6.75

GAME TIME 1:15 CDT

When Wells was signed, it was by Dave Duncan's recommendation; Wells always has had good stuff but was a perennial underachiever and it was almost expected that Kip would be one of Dunc's great reclamation projects, a feel good story. How horribly things have gone wrong. Now this could be Kip's last stand, or at least his last stand as a starter. No pitcher has done more to hurt his team then Wells this season, yet he gave us all a glimmer of hope by the way he pitched in the 13th and 14th innings of Wednesday night's game, particularly the way he got John Buck to strike out swinging with runners on the corners to end the 14th. It felt like that night he did the polar opposite of what he's done all season, which is buckle down under pressure. Wells has had a knack for wilting with runners on; his strand % is 56.9%, the worst in the majors. (Watching him hitting David Dejesus in the first inning on June 14th with the bases loaded comes to mind as one of those painful situations.) In one night he went from appearing to be a million dollar arm with a ten cent head (to borrow the Crash Davis line), to simply having a million dollar arm. Should he fail today, next will be a last ditch effort to squeeze value out of him in relief, which wouldn't be the end of the world if he can continue to produce results like he did in the wee hours of Thursday morn. Or they may just cut bait. No pressure or anything Kip, just pitch your butt off and save your job. Getting him on track would sure be nice.

  • This site has the real down low on opposing pitcher Cole Hamels. One of my favorite Cole Hamels facts is: "Gwyneth Paltrow thought she was going to see Cole Play, but she settled for the lead singer of Coldplay."

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Will Duncan sit?
He's 11 for his last 24.  Will Tony keep his bat out of the lineup against Cole?  Duncan at cleanup worked well Saturday.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 1:27 AM EDT reply actions  

Duncan v. LH
It's time to see what Little Dunc can do against lefties.  I know he hasn't hit for crap against them yet this year, but we need to see if he's ever going to be more than a platoon player.  I say let him play every day (when he's not hurt, anyway) for the rest of the year so we can see where we are at.  It's time to start seeing this season as a means of evaluating talent for the future; we aren't going to the World Series again.

by chris13 on Jun 24, 2007 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm with you
of course, Cole Hamels is not just any lefthander.  I'd like Duncan to learn to hit lefthanders.....You know, last year he was just a butcher in the outfield, and he's worked hard and became somewhere between adequate and good.  I suspect he'll do the same with lefthanders, if given the opportunity.  LaDunc makes me absolutely CRAZY with all of the left/right matchups.  I think Dunc has earned the right to prove he's not a platoon player....

by jillsinmo on Jun 24, 2007 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd sit him
Duncan's biggest weakness is the changeup...Hamels has either 1 or 1A best changeup in the game.
Pujols currently < Career godliness.

by joker24 on Jun 24, 2007 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

sounds like an astros fan...
down here in Houston.  I'm stationed down here in the military.  I believe it was 2005 when the Houston Chronicle put out on the front page of their paper a picture of a tombstone that read:

RIP
Astros 2005 Season

or something like that.  Sounds like you should write for the Chron.  j/k

Dont give up yet, youd be a 'Stros fan if you did.

by yer dog first on Jun 24, 2007 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

that was supposed to be for the guy that...
posted: "were not going back to the World Series this year."

by yer dog first on Jun 24, 2007 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Saving your job
Heh.  How many of us would like to be in that situation having to save our $4M/ year job?  Oh, by the way, even if you fail, you get to keep the $4M.  You are right about there being no pressure.

by Zubin on Jun 24, 2007 3:16 AM EDT reply actions  

my favorite hamels facts
My wife screams out [Kip Wells]'s name in bed, and half the time he isn't even there.
[Kip Wells] is so good he makes suicide commit life.
[Kip Wells] will win 1 Cy Young... and 11 [Kip Wellses]

by DanUpBaby on Jun 24, 2007 4:07 AM EDT reply actions  

cole hamels fact
Billy Beane weeps daily because he didn't realize that drafting only college pitchers meant losing out on Cole.

by sjoshi on Jun 24, 2007 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm
sure it's been well noted by diehards already, but: Cards draftee Mike Stutes tries to pitch Oregon State to the College World Series title tonight at 7 eastern.  Should make a nice follow-up to a Cards series win!

by jfs on Jun 24, 2007 7:40 AM EDT reply actions  

Eh...
he should quit the pee-wee circuit and sign his contract already... They're playing ball in Batavia already. He's missing valuable time!

j/k

by guayzimi on Jun 24, 2007 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

I love the College World Series......
I'm going to go see them someday...Yep, it's on my list of things to do before I die.  It so hard to get to that level, and most of the players just look like they are having so much fun....

by jillsinmo on Jun 24, 2007 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Percival
from StlCardinals.com

Percival deals: Troy Percival's fifth appearance for Triple-A Memphis was his best yet. The right-hander faced three batters on Friday night, striking out all three, in the Redbirds' win over Round Rock. Since a somewhat rocky debut, Percival has pitched five shutout innings in four games, allowing one hit and two walks while striking out seven. He is expected to join the team in New York, but not sooner.

So, Percival joins the team Monday, I guess.

Wonder if he will wear 40?  They said on FSN on Friday that all the big league numbers were taken up to 62 (Maroth's new number).  I looked at the 40-man roster and can't find 40 listed.  Maybe Percival reserved it.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 8:11 AM EDT reply actions  

Velocity
Any word on how hard he's throwing?  I'm curious if he's blowing guys away, or if he's turned into a 'crafty' veteran.  

by chris13 on Jun 24, 2007 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I saw him in Round Rock
last Wednesday and the gun had him consistently at 91-92 w/ his fastball, 85-86 w/ his slider and 75-76 w/ his change.  He was blowing guys away.

by chuckb on Jun 24, 2007 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

My point
is that I don't think it makes much sense to bring in a guy who isn't goint to have anything to offer the team for at least the next year or two.  He'll just take innings away from the younger guys who need the experience & that the team needs to evaluate at the MLB level.  I'd rather see Cate, Cavazos, Dove, etc. than Percival at the end of his career.  If he's still got it, that's different.  But if he's throwing 86, he isn't going to be an important part of the team going forward.

by chris13 on Jun 24, 2007 9:22 AM EDT reply actions  

Considering the amount
of interest in Percival from other clubs, I suspect he's still got quite a bit left... remember, he had been a 95+ MPH guy prior to his injury... even if his velocity has dropped to 92-93, that's still enough "heat" to be effective.

We'll know sooner than later!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 24, 2007 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't see Tupac at McDonald's...
but I saw Wellemeyer at White Castle. Prior to his start on Wednesday, Wellemeyer was pushing down some belly-busters. Five runs, two earned...not a bad line, but I can't imagine this is the best pre-game meal. Of course, out of respect for what may be the man's pre-game ritual, no details as to which of the area's fine White Castle restaurants. We'll just let him have his slider-munching downtime before his game.
I once shot a man just to see him die...then I got distracted and missed it.

by TheDuke32 on Jun 24, 2007 9:44 AM EDT reply actions  

And all this time...
I thought those noises I was hearing on TV were Wellemeyer grunting...

I wonder how many other "gas-powered" players there are in MLB? Would Wellemeyer without his "belly bombs" top out at 89 MPH, instead of his 94-95 "gasser"?  ;-)

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 24, 2007 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

maybe this is how wellemeyer loads up the ball
you get your fingers all covered in greasy burger-n-fry stuff prior to the start; then the fats you've ingested work their way through your system and ooze out the pores of your fingers.

ingenious plan.

by lboros on Jun 24, 2007 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Which is why
he was not good in KC, there are not whitey's up there.

by Just Rope Ball on Jun 24, 2007 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Someone on the PD boards
said that on Friday they saw Reyes, Wells and Thompson at Chipotle.

He said he asked them what they thought about Maroth and none of them had heard about it by then.

Apparently, Reyes burrito gave the Phillies the runs.

Pun intended.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

White Castles
there is no food that will clog arteries like a nice 20-pack of white castles.I gotta stop there every time im in Stl lol.

by Calhoun on Jun 24, 2007 10:50 AM EDT reply actions  

Percival is Valuable
With Percival, one of the excess guys can be traded for something we have a need for. Plus, having guys with percival's and izzy's experience in the bullpen can really help with the younger guys.

by tdub @ Viva El Birdos on Jun 24, 2007 10:51 AM EDT reply actions  

you could be right...
I don't know the personalities of either.  But as for Izzy (truth in lending: I am an anti-Interestinghausen camper, even before the mid-season of '06 debacle, and THAT experience locked me in and the key was thrown away) I've never gotten any 'mentor' vibes about him.  To the contrary, he seems aloof and mysterious

by CurtFlood on Jun 24, 2007 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then you don't read any of the comments
by the Baby Pen.  They all credited Izzy as mentoring them through the playoffs last year.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

why oh why....
why wells instead of thompson
i dont care about money
were 6-2 in brad's starts and we need wins
kip should stay in the bullpen a while and get a few good appearances in before he returns to the rotation.....
RESIGN JIMMY BALLGAME....HE SHOULD RETIRE A REDBIRD!

by benstl on Jun 24, 2007 10:53 AM EDT reply actions  

Percival
o there is no doubt about Percival's value I cannot wait to see him with the big club.Anyone know what his repertoire is? I know he has a decent Curveball and fastball but i was wondering what other pitches he throws?

by Calhoun on Jun 24, 2007 10:55 AM EDT reply actions  

does anyone remember
the meeting edmonds had with someone (maybe larussa) after he went on the dl, and after the meeting edmonds wasn't pissed about going on the dl?  anyway, I thought it was because larussa told edmonds that the white sox wanted to see a minor leaguer (someone they could possibly trade for) get at bats in the majors before they would trade for him.  well, does anyone know who that minor leaguer was?  or have a link to the article / commment where that was stated?

by PGeorge @ Viva El Birdos on Jun 24, 2007 10:56 AM EDT reply actions  

Today's PD doesn't have a happy article
about Edmonds.  It leans towards the idea that the pinched nerve in Edmonds leg isn't going to go away and that this may be his last season.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

not that it answers your question
but the W-Sox need a CF, and of course relief pitching.
They probably won't take the Schu, but I fear it may be Cate.

by CurtFlood on Jun 24, 2007 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see that Thompson is going to start Wednesday...
Don't all pitchers have throwing programs  between starts?  My son is a pitcher and he does---and sometimes when the pitching staff tanks they do their throwing in the game instead of on the sidelines.  They make certain pitchers available and if they don't get in the game, they have a catcher and coach stay to get it in after the game.  I'm guessing this might be what they are doing with Thompson.  If they use him Monday, he won't be ready for Wednesday's start.  So I think he's just doing what he can to help the team--and they should keep him in the rotation for awhile.  He's earned it as far as I'm concerned.

by jillsinmo on Jun 24, 2007 11:14 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm of the opinion...
that WonderBrad is the "backup option" if Wells implodes in the first few innings today. I suspect the Kipper will be on an extremely short leash...
"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 24, 2007 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think that's right
we could get 2-3 innings out of Brad and still have him pitch on Wednesday, if needed.  I'd love Kip to buckle down and throw some good innings but, like w/ Reyes, I don't think this matchup favors Kip.  They're patient hitters and he's prone to nibbling.  I'm afraid he'll walk a few and end up throwing one right down the middle to Utley, Rollins or Howard w/ 2 men on.  Could be a long day for the Cards -- and that doesn't include problems we may have hitting Hamels.

by chuckb on Jun 24, 2007 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Buehrle to Red Sox
according to the SunTimes, the Red Sox are making a push for Buehrle and are going to offer him the 5 year extension he wants.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 11:45 AM EDT reply actions  

No way!
Boston's offering their top 3 prospects -- 2 pitchers and a major league CF.  That's like us offering Rasmus, Garcia and Hawksworth or Anderson.  That's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY too much!  Even if Buehrle signs an extension w/ Boston and goes off the market.  Bye Bye, Buehrle.

by chuckb on Jun 24, 2007 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

every deal depends on the offfer
I never said I'd offer up all three of our top prospects for buerhle -- and the Red Sox aren't doing it either.  That's merely who the White Sox are interested in.

by azruavatar on Jun 24, 2007 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

if buerhle goes to the red sox for the $$$
it will confirm in my mind that players care more about money than winning championships or being happy for that matter. as long as they get paid, they could give a shit to how well the team is doing.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jun 24, 2007 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Cardinals
were never going to have a real shot at signing him anyway, despite what he's said in the past. Walt, et al can put all the spin on it they want, but St. Louis is no longer the "baseball heaven" that it was once purported to be, and as a result, players are going where the money is, instead of tradition.
"It's always about money; anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jun 24, 2007 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dunno about that
yes, he would be going for the money however his rotation would then consist of:

Beckett
Dice-K
Buehrle
Lester
Schilling (this season)

That rotation would be better than the:

Carpenter
Mulder
Wainwright
Reyes/Looper
Maroth

rotation he'd be walking in to.

He'd be better off extending his career in the NL, but going to the Red Sox isn't just 'chasing the money'.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

and his best
shot at a world series would be with the red sox

by PGeorge @ Viva El Birdos on Jun 24, 2007 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

How would this be not about winning
Is there a team in baseball w/ a better chance of winning this year than Boston -- or in the next 5 years.  If Boston does this -- gives him a chance to win this year and 5 more times, gives him a 5 year contract for $12-15 million per year, he ought to take it.  Why not?  Because the Cardinals, who are 6 under .500 might offer a pretty good contract this offseason?

by chuckb on Jun 24, 2007 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your nuts
The Red Sox are by far the best team in baseball right now, adding Buerhle would only make them more of a powerhouse. If he cares about winning, the Red Sox is the right place to go.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 24, 2007 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

shades of Vida Blue
well, maybe not THAT severe... but couldn't the commissioner VOID such a deal??
I'm kidding, of course, he doesn't do stuff like that anymore... there is no "for the good of the game" mentality anymore; it seems to be money, and whatever makes ESPN happy that rules the day.
My point was to be... of all the teams that need starting pitching, isn't Boston somewhere close to the very bottom of the list?

by CurtFlood on Jun 24, 2007 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

So.....
maybe they'll make Schilling available?  They certainly won't re-sign him now...

by jillsinmo on Jun 24, 2007 11:56 AM EDT reply actions  

I know Cole Hamels sister....
I just study abroad with her for the past year and went to Italy with her. I e-mailed her and asked her to tell her brother to take it easy on us (and to convince Cole to come to St. Louis). So if we win, it will be all because of me. You're welcome =). If I had checked earlier I should have tried to get tickets to todays game =) I'll have to pass them on the Cole Hamels facts to her and the Hamels family =)

by davethebutcher on Jun 24, 2007 1:06 PM EDT reply actions  

No Duncan. All righty lineup:
Tagughi, CF
Spiezo, 2B
Pujols, 1B
Encarnacion, RF
Rolen, 3B
Ludwick, LF
Miles, SS
Stinnett, C
Wells, P

---

Rollins, SS
Bourn, LF
Utley, 2B
Howard, 1B
Rowand, CF
Dobbs, 3B
Werth, RF
Ruiz, C
Hamels, P

2nd best hitter rides the pine while the worst pitcher stands on the mound.  Good luck boys.

by cloistermaximus on Jun 24, 2007 1:31 PM EDT reply actions  

You could see this coming though
Ludwick has earned starts against a lefty so far, and Enc wasn't going to get benched after his HR yesterday.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I sadly agree
but I DO like Miles in there.
Have we figured out why Stinnett is getting so much work?  Did Bennett catch yesterday... even so it isn't like a day game after a night game.

by CurtFlood on Jun 24, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not so sure
isn't Ludwick hitting well below .200 against lefties?

by Big Red on Jun 24, 2007 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Woah
you are right.

Wow, that doesn't make any sense.


against LHP
Ludwick   .158  .158  .263
Duncan    .220  .278  .360  

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dear God
I'm writing on a new monitor and am going to need to get new speakers because the others exploded from an overload on obnoxious stupidity.  Steve Phillips, Jay Mariotti and Stephen A. Smith on the screen at the same time.  Yikes.  All talking about Sammy Sosa.  
Pujols currently < Career godliness.

by joker24 on Jun 24, 2007 1:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Phillips is a moron.
Here are some choices phrases from his argument on why Sosa should be a HOFer:

"There is no smoking gun with him. There is just guilt by association. Just because he kept pace with Mark McGwire in home runs in 1998 doesn't mean he should be seen the same way as McGwire."

"In fact, consider that Sosa did get busted for corking a bat during his playing days. Why would a player on steroids cork his bat? He wouldn't."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2875680

by Fitz on Jun 24, 2007 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

He is a moron
he must make those other two look like Mensa All-Stars on the same screen with them.

by chuckb on Jun 24, 2007 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

ehh
i can deal with mariotti but phillips and stephen a. are too much.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jun 24, 2007 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

No good links, but
it's being talked about on some Cubs messgage boards that Rod Beck was found dead this morning in Arizona.

by Big Red on Jun 24, 2007 2:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Game won't start until 1: 30 CT
there was a rain delay.

Probably means Cards didn't take BP.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 2:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Wellemeyer is injured
sore wrist from collision in last start.

Might miss his start on Tuesday.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 2:05 PM EDT reply actions  

More good news!
may the Tomo Ohka era begin!

by chuckb on Jun 24, 2007 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah
i don't have a great feeling about Ohka, I think he's still hurt.
Future Redbirds

by erik on Jun 24, 2007 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

What's the weather looking like?
Any ideas on how long the delay is going to be? I wouldn't mind a rainout here. Maybe we could catch Eaton again or Lieber in the makeup game.

by willievinceterry on Jun 24, 2007 2:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Rosenthal reports the Maroth trade
PTBNL will be a fringe prospect.  The Tigers were just trying to unload contract.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 2:32 PM EDT reply actions  

2.95 prorated
So what, roughly 1.8 mil for the rest of the year?  They must be in the hunt for a trade or something to just dump salary like that.  Or maybe they are trying to save up for Porcello.
Pujols currently < Career godliness.

by joker24 on Jun 24, 2007 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

$3 M
over the next 2 years.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

OT:
Dunno where else tom put this, but ESPN radio just reported that Rod Beck has died. My condolences go out to his family.
"It's always about money; anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jun 24, 2007 2:33 PM EDT reply actions  

not tom..
but to...
"It's always about money; anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Jun 24, 2007 2:34 PM EDT reply actions  

nice inning kip!
how 'bout eight more of those.....how about this, mcgowan gets his no hitter and wells pitches a perfect game.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jun 24, 2007 2:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Good inning for Kip
threw strikes, stayed away from the middle of the plate.

by chuckb on Jun 24, 2007 2:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Only Mike could take Hamels
and turn it into 2 words.  Ham-uls.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 2:47 PM EDT reply actions  

yikes
five pitch inning. let's not have too many more of those (on the hitting side, anyway).

by stlcardinalsfang on Jun 24, 2007 2:48 PM EDT reply actions  

The Kipper
gets through the first...anybody got the numbers on the Cardinals record when they are tied or leading in the first?
Good pitching will beat good hitting any time, and vice versa. ~Bob Veale, 1966

by bukowski on Jun 24, 2007 2:48 PM EDT reply actions  

the plan seems to be
hit the 1st decent pitch you see.  Don't let him get to 2 strikes or you're gone!  

by chuckb on Jun 24, 2007 2:49 PM EDT reply actions  

more like
don't let him get to one strike

by johnstonburg on Jun 24, 2007 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

No LaRussa?
The all-mullet team needs a manager!

http://bugsandcranks.com/the-clubhouse/baseball-and-mullets-an-american-tradition/

Good pitching will beat good hitting any time, and vice versa. ~Bob Veale, 1966

by bukowski on Jun 24, 2007 2:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Kippy!!!
With the K...looking good so far...
Good pitching will beat good hitting any time, and vice versa. ~Bob Veale, 1966

by bukowski on Jun 24, 2007 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I may be taking this back shortly...
Good pitching will beat good hitting any time, and vice versa. ~Bob Veale, 1966

by bukowski on Jun 24, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

ehh
pitch count, wells, pitch count.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jun 24, 2007 2:56 PM EDT reply actions  

Thankfully our pitchers use the pitch to contact
method.

Really keeps the pitch counts down.

by Big Red on Jun 24, 2007 3:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Its not just Kip
Every single one of our pitchers is in the upper 80s by the 5th inning.

by Big Red on Jun 24, 2007 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

that was a strike
the first one to Ruiz!  Dammit!

by chuckb on Jun 24, 2007 3:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah
the ump isn't helping Kippers out.  I thought he's thrown a few strikes that have been called balls.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

McGowen thru 8
93 pitches
hitting 97 on the gun
7ks
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 3:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Watching on CBC
Usually I'm glad to have the CBC for hockey.  This is the first time I'm glad to have it for baseball.

by ColinMacLeod on Jun 24, 2007 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's nibbling again!
Goddammit, Kip!  Go get him!

by chuckb on Jun 24, 2007 3:02 PM EDT reply actions  

38 pitches
even if he doesn't allow any runs he's only going to get through five maybe 6 with that kind of pitch count.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jun 24, 2007 3:03 PM EDT reply actions  

yeah
now that i think about it. to be greedy, i'd love seven or eight.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jun 24, 2007 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have a feeling the Jays
are going to strike out on nine pitches in the bottom of the 8th here....

by nota bene on Jun 24, 2007 3:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Nope
dragging it out.

Just think if Thomas had hit his 500th that inning.  The long delay from THAT would have killed the kid.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

due up in 9th
baker (dh), torrealba (c), and former astro taveras (cf).

by stlcardinalsfang on Jun 24, 2007 3:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Jinxed it
I tuned in to watch the top of the 8th.  The announcers danced around "no hitter" going into the bottom of the 8th.  Then he play-by-play guy just blurted it out to open the 9th.  I knew the first batter would get a hit after that.

by ColinMacLeod on Jun 24, 2007 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not any more...
...triple.  So tried...no love.
Good pitching will beat good hitting any time, and vice versa. ~Bob Veale, 1966

by bukowski on Jun 24, 2007 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jay Randolph and Mike Shannon
are talking about the new trend of players putting 1 finger outside the glove.

"Some glove companies even put a hole for the finger there"

Welcome to 30 years ago.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 3:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Wells
on base.

Too early to speculate if the trip to the bullpen or the Maroth signing/Reyes recall got his attention?

by nota bene on Jun 24, 2007 3:27 PM EDT reply actions  

I think, based on watching his BP session
the other night, that he is keeping his weight back, which keeps him from 'casting' his breaking pitches.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

interesting
think he'll be able to do that consistently all game, or is he going to relapse when he runs out of gas?

by nota bene on Jun 24, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

SO!
the streak lives!
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 3:29 PM EDT reply actions  

I smell a rally
c'mon boys, let's get a crooked one....Speez is going to get something to hit here I think....

by nota bene on Jun 24, 2007 3:30 PM EDT reply actions  

Here's hoping
Pujols doesn't reach for a bad pitch and waits for something he can drive.

by cloistermaximus on Jun 24, 2007 3:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Ankiel
Just hit his 20th.  A solo shot off of Brian Lawrence.

by punditmoi on Jun 24, 2007 3:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Buehrle to the Red Sox - close
per the White Sox/Cubs broadcast.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 3:38 PM EDT reply actions  

that's too bad
but i'm happy we're not parting with rasmus + others. the red sox have a ton of great prospects and money they can part with. the cards just can't afford to mortgage the future in CF for a pitcher that's thrown as many innings as buerhle. don't get me wrong, he's pretty good and all and i would've loved to see him in cardinal red, there's just no reason to mortgage the farm for someone you probably won't be able to afford to resign after this year.
Future Redbirds

by erik on Jun 24, 2007 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can't be too happy with...
...bases loaded, 1 out, AP at bat and only score one run.

But, one is better than none.

by Ignatius J Reilly on Jun 24, 2007 3:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Back to back radio days
First Bill Cosby now Bruce Weber, two of my favorite people in the world. I'm in heaven.
This is like 1988, only without Jim Lindeman. Could we get Jim Lindeman, please?

by Alxfritz on Jun 24, 2007 3:41 PM EDT reply actions  

so, with all of these celebs in town
who's going to lead the singing in the seventh?
"It ain't bragging if you can do it!" -- Dizzy Dean

by faninexile on Jun 24, 2007 3:45 PM EDT reply actions  

So far, so good for Wells
Still holding my breath, though.

by willievinceterry on Jun 24, 2007 3:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Rain delay
and its perfectly sunny at my place, maybe four miles from the stadium. Huh.
This is like 1988, only without Jim Lindeman. Could we get Jim Lindeman, please?

by Alxfritz on Jun 24, 2007 3:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Wow!
where'd that come from?

by chuckb on Jun 24, 2007 3:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Rain Delay?
MLB.TV says there is.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 3:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Rain delay?
Anyone know how hard its coming down?

by Zubin on Jun 24, 2007 3:49 PM EDT reply actions  

in that picture
the stadium looks like it is in a blighted slum

by CurtFlood on Jun 24, 2007 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rick Horton
"There is no stat for the 'keep the line moving' hit."

Sure there is, Rick.  It's called a hit.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 3:51 PM EDT reply actions  

rasmus
seems to be breaking out of the slump-- another homer today

by johnstonburg on Jun 24, 2007 4:03 PM EDT reply actions  

did you hear this
on the radio, TV?

What is meant by rehab?  Does that mean he'll begin throwing off a mound?

by chuckb on Jun 24, 2007 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

On the radio, they said Walt had said
that.  He is going to stay with the team until about Mid-July and then go on rehab assignments.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

at least
we'll find out what we've got for this year.

by chuckb on Jun 24, 2007 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

With the rain delay still going
Will Tony, after today, finally put an end to the Encarnacion as Cleanup experiment?  
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 4:21 PM EDT reply actions  

I'd like to think so, ......
....but I think he suffers from the same case of organizational malaise that Walt and seemingly many of the players have. I think they all realize that they did little, if anything, to improve an 83 win team and that if the owners will not spend money after enjoying the benefits of a new stadium and playoff run culminating in a championship, they never will.

One of my long term concerns is that AP takes a walk when he gets a chance.

by Ignatius J Reilly on Jun 24, 2007 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Disagree
The decline of the Cardinals has a lot to do with morgageing the furture in an attempt to extend the playoff streak.

Imagine if this team had Dan Harren and Coco Crisp on the roster?

by Zubin on Jun 24, 2007 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rain Delay over shortly
per KRTS.
Hope Kippers still has the magic.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 4:24 PM EDT reply actions  

how soon???
you posted that comment 30 minutes ago now.

by stlcardinalsfang on Jun 24, 2007 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Single
3-2 KC over Royals now.  Turnblow gets pulled.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Intra-squad game?
...(just having fun in the rain delay)

by Ignatius J Reilly on Jun 24, 2007 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ha
yup.  The Royals can't even beat the Royals.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can the Royals hold on
against the Brewers?  I'd love to hear the Brewers FSN announcers explain that loss away.  I've never heard 2 announcers turn everything into a positive.

"Well, you can't win them all.  And if this loss today means that we won't have to lose one in September, then good on these guys for losing today"

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 4:50 PM EDT reply actions  

The radio broadcast is replaying the TLR show
and Tony says now that Duncan is out of the #2 spot, he likes him more in the #6 or #7 spot.

Are you serious?  The 2nd best hitter on this team and you want him batting in the bottom half of the order?

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 4:55 PM EDT reply actions  

cubs/sox baserunning issues
I'm not sure if any of you were paying attention, but the most entertaining (umpiring) play i've ever seen happened in the top of the 8th inning.  Basically the small bears had a man on 1st & 2nd w/ 0 outs and got a sure double into right field, but Pie held up at 3rd (he was on 2nd).  Whoever was on first collided w/ the sox SS at 2nd base and then kept running to third (where Pie was standing for some reason instead of scoring).  The throw came in from the outfielder, got the baserunner going back to 2nd.  

Meanwhile the guy who hit the ball was trying to get to second on the play and got caught in a rundown.  At this point Pie tried to score and got caught.  So basically you have a guy on 2nd w/ 2 outs, but because of the obstruction at 2nd base at the beginning of all this the play was called dead and it was bases loaded w/ 0 outs.  Guillen got tossed after trying to argue the play with Jerry West (who you could visibly see telling Ozzie "Let me finish" while he was trying to explain the ruling).

Try to catch it on Sports Center later...funny stuff (also read the comments on both the sox and cubs sites (links to the right).

by imissrex on Jun 24, 2007 4:59 PM EDT reply actions  

Hawk Harrelson
is all kinds of bent out of shape.

by Big Red on Jun 24, 2007 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Games back
Rolen hits one off his foot.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 5:23 PM EDT reply actions  

MLB.TV (video) ahead of MLB.TV (radio)
I figured out how to watch the game but listen to the radio anouncers... problem is everything is out of sync.

by Zubin on Jun 24, 2007 5:23 PM EDT reply actions  

Great job Lud.
Now don't get picked off.

by Zubin on Jun 24, 2007 5:25 PM EDT reply actions  

"Evil Eckstein" is up
He has even ot the goatee back!

by Zubin on Jun 24, 2007 5:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Nice!
I love seeing someone use "my" nickname for Miles.  Probably too many cartoons in the 70s and soap operas in the 80s.  ;o)

by cardsgirlinAR on Jun 24, 2007 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

All right...
getting Hamels out of the game is good.

by guayzimi on Jun 24, 2007 5:27 PM EDT reply actions  

This is a real bummer for the Phils...
their weak pen has to pitch two-thirds of the game and their best starter is burned after only three innings.

by guayzimi on Jun 24, 2007 5:31 PM EDT reply actions  

Bad call by Oquendo
Especially when you have the Gooch coming to the plate next.

by Zubin on Jun 24, 2007 5:34 PM EDT reply actions  

I think
it was a good idea to send Ludwick home.  We will see if it bites us later.  But a bummer, no doubt.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 24, 2007 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yuck
Kippers clearly wants this one bad.  The rest of the Cards, not so much.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 5:34 PM EDT reply actions  

How so?
What have the rest of the Cards done to prove they don't want it?
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 24, 2007 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

The 6 pitch 1st inning
scoring 1 run with the bases loaded, 1 out and the heart of the order coming up.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can no credit be given to Cole Hamels?
You know...the young, incredibly good left hander?
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 24, 2007 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do baseball teams...
lack desire every time they score one run with the bases loaded and one out, or was that just the problem on this particular occasion?

by guayzimi on Jun 24, 2007 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Leadoff walk to the #8 hitter
That has been a sign of bad things to come all year for Wells. I am bracing myself.

by willievinceterry on Jun 24, 2007 5:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Someone
Should go up to Reyes and say "If you want to know what you look like pitching take a look on the mound. That's you in 5 years. The back of the rotation. Not very well liked by the fans. Living one year deal to one year deal."

Maybe that will scare him good.

by Harknights on Jun 24, 2007 5:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah!!
good idea dude... that'll show him, maybe it'll put some more bite on his slurve...

by guayzimi on Jun 24, 2007 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

and that's all they'll get
after having the bases loaded w/nobody out.  Let's hope they can hold on.

by calico30 on Jun 24, 2007 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Poor Kipper
No win, but also NO LOSS.  Not a bad line though - one run on three hits, two walks and five SO against a good offensive team.  SO much better than the last start and something to build on.  Hopefully Kip is treading up.  

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 24, 2007 6:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Some on is confusing
Batting average and on base percetage.

by Zubin on Jun 24, 2007 6:09 PM EDT reply actions  

I was thinking the same thing
plus the probability of a wild pitch, error on a pick-off, etc.  

by Big Red on Jun 24, 2007 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Royals win
Better put - Brewers lose.  

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 24, 2007 6:10 PM EDT reply actions  

either way,
we'll take it.  Now we just need a run or two ourselves.

by calico30 on Jun 24, 2007 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gotta be a mistake somewhere...................
I just get home to see that we're tied 1-1, on ten run Sunday, no less, and on a day where Wells pitched? What is this, bizarro world?

by fuegophil on Jun 24, 2007 6:25 PM EDT reply actions  

it should be
at least 14-8 by now.
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 24, 2007 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

stupid extra innings
I hate having to "watch" games on gameday.  especially when something stupid like "CAUGHT STEALING" happens to end an inning.
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 24, 2007 6:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Dunc CS
was it a botched hit and run?  Or was it a run and hit or straight steal?

by Zubin on Jun 24, 2007 6:28 PM EDT reply actions  

straight steal
throw beat him by a second.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Big inning here
For the Phillies.  They don't score here, we've got a shot.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 6:30 PM EDT reply actions  

this is where
I miss Yadi and his snap throws.
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 24, 2007 6:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Stinnett is speedy
I'll give him that.  and he has warning track power to boot.
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 24, 2007 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

uh oh
Victorino.  not a good sign.
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 24, 2007 6:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Flores + bases loaded
scares me.  A passed ball could be near.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 6:43 PM EDT reply actions  

well at least it's not TJ
Flores has a better chance of putting one right down the middle though.
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 24, 2007 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Going with Flores is technically the right move..
...but I don't trust him here. Prove me wrong, Flores.

by willievinceterry on Jun 24, 2007 6:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Or not
He is not right lately. That won't affect his ERA, but he hasn't been stranding too many runners, has he?

That one hurt. This was a game we could have one.

by willievinceterry on Jun 24, 2007 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not over yet
I doubt Flores finishes this inning.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

well
there goes that.....

by tnek5 on Jun 24, 2007 6:48 PM EDT reply actions  

hated the walk to
howard, and randy flores for two straight seasons has been horrible with inherited runners.
Future Redbirds

by erik on Jun 24, 2007 6:51 PM EDT reply actions  

Tony only evaluates Adam Kennedy
based on the performance he makes this season.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Come on, let's get some runs!!!
...that bases loaded, one out, AP at bat, score one run inning is looming huge....

by Ignatius J Reilly on Jun 24, 2007 6:52 PM EDT reply actions  

1 pitch, 1 out
Speezer is getting good at that.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 6:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Condrey
this guy has a 9.00 ERA.  that should be good for one run this inning, right?
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 24, 2007 6:53 PM EDT reply actions  

I despise Randy Flores...
and TLR for continuosly using him.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 24, 2007 6:54 PM EDT reply actions  

i concur
TLR's use of Flores is mystifying.  

Among Cards' pitchers with over 20 relief innings, here they are in terms of runs prevented:

  1. Izzy
  2. Franklin
  3. Springer
  4. Thompson
  5. Johnson
  6. FLORES
So Flores seems to be our worst option out of the pen.  Now let's see how La Russa has used them in terms of leverage (like above, I grabbed these from Baseball Prospectus):
  1. Izzy
  2. FLORES
  3. Franklin
  4. Springer
  5. Johnson
  6. Thompson
In other words, Flores is our LEAST effective reliever, and yet La Russa has used him in the MOST crucial situations of any set-up man.  Does this make sense to you?

I know it's too much to ask of an old schooler like La Russa, but frankly Isringhausen should've been brought in to face Victorino  -- bases juiced, tie game, 8th inning: that's when you use your ace (especially since Izzy probably wouldn't be facing a save situation today anyway).

I guess TLR went to Flores b/c he's a lefty, but Victorino is a switch hitter without any extreme platoon splits, and Flores has been terrible against both righties and lefties.

I don't get it.

Brian Gunn

by briangunn on Jun 24, 2007 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

5 pitches???
We only looked at 5 pitches, when this guy has an ERA that high! When one is down 3 runs and only has 6 outs left, shouldn't one make sure to make every at-bat an extremely patient one?

by fuegophil on Jun 24, 2007 6:57 PM EDT reply actions  

No one really wants to talk about it
However, since Speizio threw the ball away that Pujols had his legs taken out on, his 'drive' is gone:

43 AB
13 Hits
2 2Bs
1 HR
7 K
8 RBI

That 'power surge' we saw to start the month vanished.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 6:57 PM EDT reply actions  

When did that happen?
And what exactly happened? Iv'e heard it mentioned, but never saw it, or read about it.

by fuegophil on Jun 24, 2007 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sunday against LA
Spiezio threw the ball away and Pujols had his legs taken out by the runner diving back in.  This was AFTER Pujols hit the 2 HRs earlier in the day.

Since then, he's really not been the same.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh... Thanks.....
I really hate that I actually worry about stuff like this........injuries to AP, CC, anyone else that's a Cardinal......

by fuegophil on Jun 24, 2007 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow
has anyone looked at Cavazos' picture on gameday?  I'm speechless.
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 24, 2007 6:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Who want to do a little research
and find out what Flores's numbers are against the first batter he faces....

My impression is that he keeps getting KILLED by the first hitter he sees...

by salvomania on Jun 24, 2007 7:02 PM EDT reply actions  

he's been killed
by everyone since April it seems
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 24, 2007 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

at least we
get something new to look at tomorrow....

by tnek5 on Jun 24, 2007 7:06 PM EDT reply actions  

now it's Kelly's turn
and then Duncan hits a HR, right?
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 24, 2007 7:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Everytime I think...
.500 is possible this year, the Cards play a game like today. Wells does the almost unthinkable and pitches well for 5 innings. We catch a break as Hamels leaves early. The offense responds with nothing. You would think the embarrassment of the W-L record following the championship alone would be enough to motivate this club but apparently nothing can.

by deanj on Jun 24, 2007 7:13 PM EDT reply actions  

p.s.
Flores sucks. For the life of me I can't figure out how he stays on the roster. Are you required to have one "I'll guarantee the loss for you" pitcher in the bullpen?

by deanj on Jun 24, 2007 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't there a law prohibiting
So and Skip getting hts in the same inning?

by Zubin on Jun 24, 2007 7:17 PM EDT reply actions  

I think So looks
to take walks in these situations.

Let others take the glory.

by enoscountry on Jun 24, 2007 7:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Cardinals draft pick
Mike Stutes is pitching on ESPN2 right now in game 2 of the CWS championship.
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 24, 2007 7:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Why did Rolen get lifted in that game
I still don't get it.  Was putting Spiezio at 3rd and Kennedy at 2nd that big of an upgrade?  I'd rather have Rolen's bat than Kennedy's defense.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 24, 2007 7:19 PM EDT reply actions  

THAT
paired with the boneheaded move to IBB Howard w/2 outs is beyond me, granted Howard is dangerous, but with this pitching staff, how could you possibly give an opposing team ANOTHER FREE runner on the pads. You take your chances there & if it backfires youre only down 3-1 instead of what happened...and then to top it off, he brings in Flores, who couldnt see that one coming?

by buzzburton33 on Jun 24, 2007 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was puzzled by that move.....
I kind of hoped that he would have let Brad pitch out of the jam. Sigh.

by jillsinmo on Jun 24, 2007 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now for something nice
Jason Simontochi won his game today.  Last time out he took the worst beating in Nationals history.......good for him.

by jillsinmo on Jun 24, 2007 9:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Your nightly Troy Percival update
He pitched tonight:
K
Double off the wall
Flyout
Infield single to pitcher
K

Against the leadoff hitter, he blew a letter high fastball by him at 92 mph on the gun which was clearly more than 92.

Per Walt during todays Channel 5 broadcast, Troy will pitch again Monday in Memphis to see him go on back to back nights and then they Cardinals will 'make a decision on him on Tuesday'.

I found Walt's terminology very interesting, he basically made it seem like they weren't sold on Percival.  I don't know what about Percival he doesn't like, but from the video I've seen of him down at Memphis, he's still got it.  

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 25, 2007 1:16 AM EDT reply actions  

The infield single
was a check-swing roller up the 3B line that they waited for it to roll foul and it...didn't.

by whopperman on Jun 25, 2007 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

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