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whither walter

re the reports of jocketty's imminent departure from st louis by peter gammons last night: i didn't hear anything new in what he said. the fact the gammons has lent his imprimatur to the rumor is new, but the substance of what he said --- the cards' front office is divided, jocketty sees the writing on the wall, he might bolt --- is the same thing that has been in circulation for more than a month. writing back on may 17 about the status of la russa and jocketty, bernie miklasz opined:

Jocketty's contract expires after 2008, and if La Russa wants to stay in St. Louis, it's hard to imagine that he would sign on without continuing his baseball partnership with Jocketty. So DeWitt also must commit to Jocketty. But DeWitt can't commit to people who might want to leave (my emphasis).
a day or two earlier, ken rosenthal had written: "Jocketty, who declined comment on the front-office dynamics, remains firmly in charge, sources say. A disappointing season, however, might accelerate change. Jocketty could even become pro-active and pursue another G.M. position . . . . " my guess is that gammons' take last night was based largely on miklasz's remarks in his column last sunday about jocketty's state of mind:
I received an e-mail recently from a Jocketty acquaintance, asking me why Walt seems so miserable. This is a familiar inquiry around Busch Stadium. What's wrong with Walt? Plenty. Despite rolling in money, ownership kept the payroll at roughly the same level as last year. Ranked sixth in payroll as recently as 2005, the Cardinals are 11th in spending in MLB, according to USA Today. Jocketty is limited. Last offseason, he was unable to do much about the starting-pitching concerns, which have evolved into a full-blown crisis. Jocketty is underpaid compared with other top GMs. And Jocketty has also witnessed the organizational rise of Jeff Luhnow, a hand-picked associate of Cardinals chairman Bill DeWitt. And Luhnow's ascendancy has been at the expense of Jocketty loyalists. Jocketty's big moves -- signing Kip Wells and Adam Kennedy -- are busts. Wouldn't you be grumpy?
the last line of that column read: "I wonder: Is this what the end of an era looks like?"

i don't know where to fit jc corcoran into all this; he claimed to have inside info yesterday, but i didn't hear his remarks. he's got no track record with cardinal-related scoops, so i neither trust nor distrust him on this issue; it's just more noise that's out there. the fact that gammons is now talking about it makes the situation seem more real --- more urgent, more immediate --- but i don't think he has any new information. this is just another variation on an angle that has been in the ether since last september, when jock loyalist bruce manno got elbowed aside to make room for jeff luhnow. the post-dispatch team noted the significance of the front-office shuffle at that time, and they have continued to monitor the situation ever since --- and the situation has been evolving in a direction that makes jocketty's departure increasingly likely.

i think the world of jocketty. he's a class act, and he's got a very good presence --- steady, patient, level-headed. i respect the guy. his record, obviously, speaks for itself --- he has been one of the very best gms in baseball over the last decade. so if he does decide to leave, it'll be a sad day for the organization. but like everyone in this business, walt's got his strengths and his weaknesses. the game is changing rapidly, particularly in a gm's two main areas of influence --- economics and player evaluation. it might be that his way of doing business is less well-suited to the years ahead than it was to the years behind. his departure at the end of this season would create an enormous deal of uncertainty about the future; but if he stays for another year, there'll still be uncertainty --- it'd just be a different kind. we'd be asking: has walt lost his touch?

he has been the st louis gm for more than a decade; very few gms, even successful ones, last any longer than that in one job. whether he leaves after this year or stays through the end of his current contract, it looks almost certain at this point that jocketty's days in st louis are numbered.

* * * * * * * * *

big article in the post-dispatch this morning about rick ankiel. derrick goold had mentioned in his blog that the article was forthcoming, so i took advantage of the off-day yesterday to catalogue ankiel's 19 homers. i wanted to know: is he hitting them off legitimate big-league-type pitchers, or are they mostly coming against career minor-league bums? without further ado (stats are current-year PCL numbers, as of this morning):
date pitcher w-l era hr/9 mlb
exp?
april 10 phil humber 7-5 4.87 1.3 y
april 12 clint nageotte 1-1 10.38 2.6 y
april 14 alfredo simon 3-6 6.53 1.3 n
april 16 jon koronka 5-4 4.70 1.1 y
april 18 jon adkins 1-2 4.01 1.6 y
april 23 dewon brazelton 0-4 7.11 1.4 y
april 24 ben hendrickson 6-4 5.48 1.2 y
may 4 nic ungs 2-3 6.11 1.8 n
may 10 jonathan rouwenhorst 6-2 4.35 0.9 n
may 28 jared gothreaux 4-5 5.38 1.5 n
may 31 jalien peguero 3-2 1.69 1.1 y
june 7 chris george 5-5 4.26 0.9 n
june 8 jeff fulchino 5-2 6.04 1.2 y
june 10 chris young 0-1 3.96 1.1 n
june 15 ryan o'malley 3-7 7.29 2.1 y
june 16 jr mathes 6-4 5.33 1.2 n
june 16 rocky cherry 1-0 7.54 1.6 y
COMPOSITE 53-57 5.40 1.3 --

ankiel has homered off 17 different pitchers --- he hit two apiece vs mathes and gothreaux. 10 of those guys have appeared at least once on a major-league mound.

before you judge the list too harshly --- it's not very impressive, is it --- don't forget that the pcl is a hitters' league: of the league's 48 era qualifiers, only 8 have an era below 4.00. due to the changing nature of triple A, there aren't a whole lot of prospects in the league to begin with; it's mostly a big-league-depth circuit now, a randy keisler / edgar gonzalez / tagg bozied league. the majority of any hitter's at-bats are going to come against guys who are too old to be prospects (ie, they're at least 25) but still haven't stuck in the big leagues. accordingly, the majority of one's home runs are bound to come against journeymen of that type.

such is the case with ankiel. the only pitchers on the list who have much chance to last for any length of time as major-league pitchers are humber and koronka. perhaps peguero should also be on that list; i never heard of him until this morning. he put up good numbers at tucson, and he's currently pitching in the arizona diamondbacks' bullpen and holding his own. hendrickson and brazelton both have already had decent-sized big-league trials, which they failed (brazelton was sent back to double A not long ago); cherry spent about a month in the cubs' bullpen earlier this year and even threw a perfect inning against the cardinals the day josh hancock died.

so what's my point here? only that ankiel may still have a ways to go before he is able to do damage against major-league pitchers. when he's not taking the bulk of his at-bats against the jr matheses, alfredo simons, and nic ungs of the baseball world --- the guys who are getting knocked around at triple A --- his tremendous power may not assert itself sufficiently to overcome his lax strike-zone judgment. or maybe that should be the other way around: his lax strike-zone judgment may prevent the power from asserting itself against big-league pitching. you can post gaudy hr totals at triple a just by hitting mistake pitches, but the mistakes are fewer and farther between in the big leagues --- you've got to force them to come to you.

in the post-dispatch, ankiel says: "I want to go up there and stay there and play for years. I don't want this to be a novelty where people say, 'Wow, look, he made it back' and then I go away." if he's gonna avoid that, i think he's gotta learn to be more selective at the plate, draw a few more walks and get himself out slightly less often. let's hope ankiel makes the necessary adjustments.

p.s.: here's some vintage b/w film footage of stan musial playing baseball --- can't be sure, but i think the home run at the end of the clip was the walkoff clout that won the 1955 all-star game at county stadium in milwaukee. isn't that willie mays (#24) greeting him as he gets to home plate?

and here's a funny take on the steroid scandal.

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If Ankiel wants
playing time at the ML level, he might be better served going to another team. As long as TLR is around, anyone not named Pujols, and maybe Rolen, won't get enough AB to get into(and stay in) a groove.

by cardsrul on Jun 22, 2007 9:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Do you really believe that?
I think you are over-reacting.  

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 22, 2007 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think TLR is one of the best
At giving his bench players regular playing time. If you look at other clubs like the mets or cubs, there isn't much variation in their line-ups from day to day. Tony, on the other hand, makes it a point to play bench players on day games after night games.

If you said they don't like to play rookies or J-Rod, I might agree with that a little more but the fact that Ankiel has been here before and TLR had the confidence in him to do well as a converted outfielder tells me he plans to use him when he's ready. Not to mention they signed him to a new contract in the offseason.

Maybe you're right though, maybe he will be an eventual trading chip, but couldn't we use those all the same?

I''m a Jenius!

by gibbons on Jun 22, 2007 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

tlr & ank
tony has a mancrush on ankiel.  he always speaks well of him.  i cant see ank getting called up and getting the shaft.  tony plays his favorites and ankiel is a favorite.

by dmb60614 on Jun 22, 2007 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd say you're 100% wrong
In fact, TLR is probably hoping to give Ankiel playing time w/ STL asap, but is afraid to expose him to the pressure and potential failure that happened with the first go-round.  He gave Rick 30 ABs during spring training stats, quite a few for a guy who was destined for the minors.
"Left-hander, right-hander, soft thrower, power guy, fastballs away, fastballs in-- [Albert Pujols] doesn't have any holes." - Tino Martinez

by _pistol_ on Jun 22, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BTW
Thanks, Larry, for the link to the footage of Stan the Man.  Classic, literally classic.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 22, 2007 10:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I was fortunate enough
to see "The Man" play at Sportsman's Park (which had been re-named Busch Stadium by the time I got there... Two of my most prized possessions are the baseball and B&W "glossy" photo Mr. Musial signed for me at his restaurant.

When some writer asked Stan in 1964 if he regretted retiring the year prior, he replied, "If I'd been on the team, we wouldn't have won the pennant, because then we wouldn't have traded for Lou Brock!"

He remains "the most parfait knight in all the realm" of baseball!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 22, 2007 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stuff like that
makes me wonder just how much film and footage is laying around St. Louis, the team's offices, the Musial's home, etc.  

I wish MLB would get off their butts and put their Digital Download service and Baseball's Best service back in action and give us more footage like this.

On Stan, he looked about as cordinated as Chris on that catch at Wrigley.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2007 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't bother with their digital download service
I bought a few games a couple of years ago.  I upgraded my PC (using a license in the process, you get three).  But since they've taken the service down, I can't reauthenticate.  Whenever I play them it, just takes me to a non-existent page to authenticate.  Several calls to their customer service department has gotten me know where.  So much for having those games for a lifetime.  It's only a few dollars, but this pissed me off so much that my next call was to a lawyer.

by outraged on Jun 22, 2007 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is a program
that will strip the DRM off those files.

Google DRM remover, etc.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unbearable....
The amount of coverage that Ankiel is getting in the St. Louis market.  I was in town a couple weeks back and Fox had their pre-game show.  They had one of the assitant GMs on for an interview, right before the draft.  They asked one general question like, "How do you prepare for the draft?" and then spent the next ten minutes asking about Ankiel, "When's he coming up?" "How many home runs will he break Bonds record by?" "Can I marry him?", etc ad nasusuem.  

My problem isn't that he's necessarily feasting on bad pitchers, he's got legit power, no doubt about it.  After watching him play though, he's exerting max effort on every swing and practically screwing himself into the ground.  Its not smooth, its not compact, its an all or nothing swing.  

This probably contributes to the high K rate.

by Brock20 on Jun 22, 2007 10:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yesterday on ESPN 2
On the run down or whatever "cold pizza" is called now, they had a whole segment on Ankiel.
I''m a Jenius!

by gibbons on Jun 22, 2007 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel
What odd though is everyone talked about how Chris Duncan did NOT hit a lot of homers in the minors and thus fans were predicting his stay in the majors would be short and that his power production with the Cardinals was only a fluke. They also criticized his swing and said he had no future (same with his defense which has improved significantly).

Now, Ankiel comes along and provides the power in the minors everyone seems to expect in order to accept them at the major-league level and fans now predict he wouldn't make it, at least not if he were called up right now.

I'm not urging one way or the other as I have faith the coaches/organization will call him up when he's ready and the club is ready (with a position for him to actually get in playing time). I do think fans should be more optimistic though as it seems as though people expect guys like this to fail. I know Ank has a history, but I'd encourage giving the guy (and the organization) a second chance and benefit of the doubt.

by jomfa on Jun 22, 2007 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel has had a .300+ ISO for a good
part of the season.  That's not just power production that's phenomenal power production.  Of course he's expected to lose slugging points at the MLB level but that becomes exacerbated by the fact that right now, power appears to be his one and only skill set.  If he isn't walking at all (and he's not) any decrease in his AVG is a severe concern.  A hitter that's batting .250/.280/.450 isn't valuable.  Taking walks is too important in modern baseball and Ankiel illustrates why.

by azruavatar on Jun 22, 2007 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not that...
Duncan didn't have any power in the minors.  He didn't hit a tremendous amount of homers, but he was always one of the team leaders.  His problem was simply getting on base more often.

by whopperman on Jun 22, 2007 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One other thing....
Read Jason Stark's book the Stark Truth the other day.  Quite a few Cards make both the underrated and overrated list.  I think he does a nice job of making his case and really defining what he means by over/under rated.  

Anyway, Stan the Man makes the cut for underrated and he all but says that he's the most underrated player of all time.  

The funny thing in that video is the catch that is called approvingly, "circus catch" by the announcer would be torn apart today as bad fielding.  

Still a great player, a great gentleman, and an ambassador for this team.  Him and Jack Buck define the Cardinals for 90% of fans.  

by Brock20 on Jun 22, 2007 10:05 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

homers
Given the number of players in the minors vs. the majors and the large percentage of flame-outs and never-will-bes, aren't most prospects' homers hit off players of considerably less than big-league quality? Is what Ankiel is facing that different from any future big-leaguer, past or present?

That's not a vote for him as a can't-miss; I'm just wondering if there's really anything in those numbers that's usable. I would suspect that there's going to be an adjustment for Ankiel when he gets up to STL, of course, but it's going to be an adjustment that all hitters have had to deal with.

by m16t on Jun 22, 2007 10:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

points well taken m16t
the point i'm trying to make --- which i didn't make very clearly --- is that the numbers to watch for ankiel aren't the HR numbers; it's the walk and strikeout numbers. the latter are more predictive, imho, of the extent to which his power will translate to the big-league level.

by lboros on Jun 22, 2007 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I completely cosign this
and thats why I agree with the Cards' decision to keep him in AAA, regardless of his option status.

He needs to learn how to hit lefties, hit the breaking ball, and how to be consistent.  And his K/BB ratio needs to get down.  

There's no doubt the guy is at least a 3-4 tool guy.  He has the plus-plus power and the arm.  The guy has big-league talent.  

One thing's for sure: I would not bet against him being a star.

by silent_bob on Jun 22, 2007 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"How to hit lefties"?
What makes you think TLR is going to even give him ABs against lefties?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 22, 2007 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The hardest ball he hit Wednesday night
was a screamer to RF off a lefty.  It was caught for an out but it was the hardest ball he hit.

by chuckb on Jun 22, 2007 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

gotcha
Makes perfect sense, and I would certainly agree.

by m16t on Jun 22, 2007 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ankiel
This is the reason they ideally want him to remain in AAA for the entire season, so he can improve things like his strike zone judgement and walk rate. He HAS been improving though, and at a pretty damn good rate. He strikes out far less now than he did when the season began, and his average and OBP are on the rise, while his power numbers continue to grow.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 22, 2007 10:24 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

While I agree...
that his avg/obp have been on the rise recently, I don't think it can be attributed to patience at the plate.  In his last 41 AB's he has 1 BB to 13 K's.  

He also has a reverse split this season, and apparently doesn't take any pitches from LHPing.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Rick%2520Ankiel&pos=&sid=milb& t=p_pbp&pid=150449

I am really excited to see what he can do.  It is unreal that one person can have that much God-given talent.

by cardzfanbub on Jun 22, 2007 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow
didn't notice the reverse split.

I was probably confusing him with our other stud minor-leaguer named Colby.

by silent_bob on Jun 22, 2007 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Jocketty is 1 of the 2 best GMs
who is generally considered the other one?

by sdrone on Jun 22, 2007 10:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

John Shuerholtz (Spelling)?
Atlanta.

At least that's one I've always heard.

by cardzfanbub on Jun 22, 2007 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure how you spell his name either.......
but I like the way Atlanta operates their farm system.  They always make sure that they are the ones to sign any local prospects-they don't miss out on the ones in their back yard.  Also, when they bring someone up from AAA they put them in the lineup as soon as their uniform is ready.  I would also add that even though the Royals are having a bad season, they have some really good young talent (home grown) on that team, and they have been playing them regularly, to see if they are going to be players at major league level.  The Gil Meche signing seemed ridiculous at the time, but if you look at the really young developing pitchers on their club, it makes sense to have a youngish veteran be the anchor.  And I'd like everyone to calm down about Rick Ankiel.  If he's called up, I want them to stick him in the line up and leave him there.  That's the only way we'll know if he has a ML future.  But don't even bother to call him up if he's going to sit on the bench.

by jillsinmo on Jun 22, 2007 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On Atlanta
Atlanta has done pretty well with position players but very little with pitchers; their results are definitely mixed.

Dave

by Sydney dave on Jun 22, 2007 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please, gang, Patience!
Let's give Rick Ankiel the time to hone his craft in AAA, to give him the best chance to succeed once he does come to The Show!

I'm convinced (at least in my own mind) that the Cardinals see him as a potential regular... they don't want him to come to St. Louis and sit the bench. He (obviously) needs work on his strike-zone judgement... the same adjustment that Chris Duncan had to make (and continues to make).

And as far as Walt's concerned... he's under contract through 2008. Who knows what will happen by then? Walt may get a raise; he may get the go-ahead to "go get" a free agent, despite the "bump" in payroll that would cause. He might just retire... Lord knows, this season has been utterly frustrating; but there's still a lot of year left!

I suspect all of us... fans, players, and management... would be a lot less frustrated had we had Chris Carpenter available this season.

These days, 24/7 news coverage seems to require a "crisis" every day; I'd be amazed if Walt bailed before the end of the season; I'd be surprised if he left at the end of 2007, unless he took another (better-paying) job... but clubs with better opportunities re: payroll, ability to compete, etc., are rare. I don't see Walt going to the Yankees, for example... and clubs such as Boston, the Mets, the White Sox, and the Dodgers seem to be happy with their GMs at this point.

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 22, 2007 11:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Trade Ankiel?
His stock may not get higher than it is right now...get something for him, and let the guy get a fresh start with another organization.  

Any new GM/manager without the ties (or guilt) of any past experiences with Ankiel would be well served to shop him for some pitching help.

by pitchout487 on Jun 22, 2007 11:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No.
his stock can only go higher, IMO.  This organization has a man-crush on him anyways.  I don't see it happening.

by silent_bob on Jun 22, 2007 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
about the man-crush part. Right or wrong, I think Jocketty and LaRussa think they owe Rick something and as long as they are around, Rick will get all the time he needs to develop.

by JMedwick on Jun 22, 2007 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Man crush...
I think this carries over to the fan-base as well.  Rick's is an incredible story that holds a real sentimental value for Cardinal fans.

by cardzfanbub on Jun 22, 2007 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here is the thing about Jock's recent failures
If DeWitt really comitted to giving Mark Buerhle a longterm contract with whatever money it took to sign him, wouldn't Walt look like a genius next season?

If our rotation stood opening day, with all these pitchers healthy (and there is no reason to believe they won't be):

Chris Carpenter
Mark Buehrle
Mark Mulder
Adam Wainwright
Anthony Reyes

wouldn't people, a season removed from talking about our debacle of a rotation, be saying "Wow, look at this rotation that Jocketty built".

Walt's failures, I imagine, are mostly based on the willingest of ownership to spend money.  In hindsight, would giving Renteria that extra year been that bad of an idea?

I'm all for Lunhow taking 3 or 4 years and buildin up the minor leagues and the prospect talent pool.  THEN he can take over if he has successfully rebuilt the farm system.  Just leave AAA and St. Louis to Walt and let him take our core guys and reload.

By 2009, the lineup should look:

LF Duncan
1B Pujols
3B Rolen
CF Rasmus
C Molina
RF Ankiel
2B Kennedy

7 of the 9 lineup spots are filled as of now, unless upgrades can be found.  He's not got alot of holes to fill.  Need another power bat and probably a 2B.

I just get angry when teams take winning for granted.  When you're no longer hungry enough to make moves to make the team better TOMORROW then you deserve decade long playoff droughts, etc.  I'm not saying at the expense of the future, however.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2007 11:38 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What about Bryan Anderson?
The kid is too good to leave out of the plans for the future.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 22, 2007 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

2009
is Anderson a backup?  Is he trade-bait?  

What to do with Yadi?

by silent_bob on Jun 22, 2007 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
I don't want to see Walt go.  I would be less upset if TLR/Dunc leave - but I hope Jocketty stays.

So if Tony/Dunc leave, who would you all want to replace him?

My candidates are:

  1. Pendleton
  2. Oquendo
  3. Girardi
No idea about pitching coach, however.

by silent_bob on Jun 22, 2007 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If it must be,
my choice would be Girardi. If it's a clean slate that is desired, he's a young guy with a different vision of the game. I've loved Oquendo since his playing days, but wonder how much like TLR he would be. I mean, his personality would surely be different--I doubt he'd be the stoic statue in the dugout TLR has been. But since he's been an integral part of the whole TLR era, how much of Tony's methods would survive? I dunno. If Girardi wouldn't or couldn't take the job, Oquendo would certainly be my second choice, but I think I'd go for Girardi first. If there must be youth and change, then, dammit, let's see youth and change.

As for pitching coach, got me--as long as it's NOT Larry Rothchild.

by rockin redbird on Jun 22, 2007 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How's this for depressing?
Take the Mulder trade and Ankiel's blowup off the table, and assume Reyes has gotten it together, how's THIS rotation look?

Carpenter
Haren
Ankiel
Wainwright
Reyes

I think I just shed a tear.

by Jhusk on Jun 22, 2007 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK, there's no need
for masochism.

(Although I can never get the Carlton trade out of my mind, either.)

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 22, 2007 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

could of beens
if we want to do "could have beens"--that staff could be looking at a small bear staff of wood, prior, Z, matt clement, maddux
Here's to the hopeful resurection of the MV3

by SprfldCards on Jun 22, 2007 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Slightly different take
What if DeWitt is committed to signing Buehrle, but is set to letting Jocketty walk after this year? Does he let his guy, Luhnow, get the boost at the start of his GM tenure by making the big dollar deal in the offseason, or does he pull the trigger soon and let Walter get the glory?

Maybe they won't go for the Buehrle trade now with the acquisition of Maroth.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Jun 22, 2007 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think either way
the Buehrle trade wasn't happening.

And I'm glad.  

Take the chance to re-sign him at the end of the year.

by silent_bob on Jun 22, 2007 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

edit-
sign, not re-sign.

by silent_bob on Jun 22, 2007 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think WJ leaving
will be a blow to the organization....Luhnow had better know what he's doing or the fans are going to turn on him.

If I were king I'd say sign Jock to a five year extension (and La Russa too).

I agree you from the other thread that the new ballpark may turn out to be DeWitt's catchall excuse to do whatever he feels like doing.

by nota bene on Jun 22, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Love the
Stan footage--they don't make 'em like The Man anymore. Even El Hombre will have to work at becoming a modern-day version. Will he spend 22 years in a BOB uni, regardless of the team's fortunes? I'm sure Stan could have left for more money and better teams during the late 40's and through the 50's. But he decided he was a Cardinal and that was that.

It may very well be the end of the "LaJocketty" era in St. Louis, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. The run has been great, and while this season is certainly a disappointment--I hope Walt sticks around for his final contract year. I'd like to see him get one more chance at a decent offseason with this core of vets and guys like Ankiel and Rasmus coming up the pipe . TLR--meh. I've been a big fan, in fact, I'm one of the few I know who liked him since day one. However, it may very well be time for him to move along. Is his partnership with Jock such that Jock won't stay if Tony leaves? Well, if that's the case then there's little that can be done.

At my age (47), I find myself more afraid of the great unknown and far less trusting of the probable payoffs of change for the sake of change. I guess this is only natural. It happens to the most adventurous of us over time. I'd love to say I want to see the board wiped clean and a new era of Cardinals baseball begin--the sooner the better, in fact. But I just can't. I think a new manager might be a good thing, but I still find myself wanting to trust Jock as the behind the scenes wizard of success. I know that regardless of what I want, change will inevitably come--I've lived thru many uncertain regime changes already, but this is where the fear of the unknown comes in: I don't want to wait another 20 years for another World Series victory. I believe Jock knows how to work successfully within the unique frame of St. Louis baseball, and while the Central is still what it is and while our core-team is what it is, I can see Jock having yet more success at getting our boys to October.

Change. Ug. It has to be, but maybe not just yet. The young man I was would be thrilled at the idea. The old man I'm becoming says, "Slow down. Why mess with has worked for a decade?" Hope you younger, more adventurous types are correct. I think you're all about to get what you want--either next season or '09. Too fast for me, but maybe it is exactly what must happen to push this team to glory in the future. Or maybe we're in for a decade of flux that does result in another stretch like the 70's or '90's. Maybe that has to be too. Only time will tell. But if the "LaJocketty" era is over, all I can say to Walt and Tony is "THANKS!! You guys masterminded one hell of a decade of great baseball. Live long and prosper."  

by rockin redbird on Jun 22, 2007 11:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

There is something to be said
for having constants and seeing everything where you think it should be.

I've grown accustom to seeing TLR sulk in the dugout, Jocketty recline in the upstair suites, and Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen be penciled in the Opening Day starting lineup every year.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2007 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nope, Stan could never have
left for another team and more money in the 40s and 50s.  See Wikipedia for "Reserve Clause, MLB."

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 22, 2007 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Duh...
Good catch. Forgot that was before our very own Curt Flood changed the whole landscape.

by rockin redbird on Jun 22, 2007 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

AND Andy Messersmith...
don't blame it all on my boy, Curt

by CurtFlood on Jun 22, 2007 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He was almost traded
to the Phillies, however.

For Robin Roberts, I believe. And I can't remember the year off the top of my head. Seems like it was the late '50's.

by player2bnamedl8r on Jun 22, 2007 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly right
Stan wrote the foreword to Robin Roberts' (Springfield's second most famous former resident) autobiography and had this to say:

"Along about 1956 Frank Lane, the Cardinals' general manager at the time, proposed to trade me to the Phillies for Roberts, even up."

Stan said he told Lane he wanted to stay in St. Louis. Plus, I don't think Roberts would have would have agreed, either; in his book he said he grew up a Cubs fan.

Stan speaks fondly of Roberts and has a great deal of respect for him, as the league's best hitter might for the league's best pitcher.

by 26thMan on Jun 22, 2007 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you
Frank "Trader" Lane...that's who I was thinking was GM.

by player2bnamedl8r on Jun 22, 2007 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Musial could have left, and almost did.
See Wikipedia for "Mexican League"

by flynn on Jun 22, 2007 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In a Valatan-esque mood right now
and I'm going to have to suggest this year's Uncle Tupelo song to be "That Year."

Give me back something that I never knew I had.

And I sit... and watch shit go by.

This is like 1988, only without Jim Lindeman. Could we get Jim Lindeman, please?

by Alxfritz on Jun 22, 2007 12:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Any Idea
what we gave for him?

by ZiggyG on Jun 22, 2007 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing Yet
My personal guess is Ludwick, though, since I don't think Detroit would take a pitcher back.  But that is a total guess--nothing on the details of the deal yet that I can find.

by Cardinal70 on Jun 22, 2007 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow
but I can't see what we gave up to get him....

by ncgostl on Jun 22, 2007 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

infamous
player to be named later.

by sdesserman on Jun 22, 2007 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Argh....
Never liked him; I kinda make it a habit to dislike people that go on the 700 club, of all things.

by craig3410 on Jun 22, 2007 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not a bad pickup
Given what else we are trotting out there.

Still,  hope we didn't give up too much -- isn't he a FA at the end of the year?

by tdawg on Jun 22, 2007 12:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He is a FA
What does Detroit need?  Reliever?  Minor leaguer?  We had to have given up something, as they know we are in a crunch for some pitching.

by pitchout487 on Jun 22, 2007 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

think he has one more arb year
He's not a free agent until after '08 according to mlb4u.com. Pitch to contact type with slight groundball tendencies, his gopherball rate has really skyrocketed the last couple of years though. His SO/BB ratio has gone in the crapper too the last couple of years, I'm assuming that the Cards see something in him that they think a little Dave Duncan magic can fix. Oh well, beats seeing Wellemeyer out there every 5th day.

by mikedallas23 on Jun 22, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pitch to contact guys are
great, so long as those ground ball goes go to someone who fields them and makes the play. And I want everyone to go out and play the game of their life to make sure Anthony doesn't lose tonight, and of course, Anthony please no big innings.

by jillsinmo on Jun 22, 2007 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I recall that they were looking for LH bullpen
guys, and maybe a LH outfield bat.  So, it seems that TJ and JRod would make sense, in an all-lefty trade.

by CardFaninVA on Jun 22, 2007 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking TJ too.......
They have to find him before they tell him.......maybe Detroit wants Ludwick back, they apparantly did at the end of the year....I don't know much about Maroth.  I'll stay neutral until I have a chance to see him.  Now maybe they'll quit saying when Mulder gets back........I never believed he'd be back before next year.  And one last thought.....maybe we're giving them Troy Percival......

by jillsinmo on Jun 22, 2007 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maroth
There's a lot about his career stats that looks league average (WHIP, HR/9, ERA+, K/BB), and that is an improvement for the Cardinals right now. However, his GB/FB ratio is 1.2....

by ncgostl on Jun 22, 2007 1:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ugh
I hope we didn't give up much..

Free agent at the end of the year, low K rate, sky-high hit rate, allows a homer every 5 innings,,

worst of all, away from Comerica Park, his career ERA is 5.25, and has been way higher than his home ERA every year of his career...

by salvomania on Jun 22, 2007 1:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Maybe it was J-Rod
For whatever reason, that guy annoys me.  Then again, why would Detroit want him after watching him run around like a total d-bag after we won the WS?  Just wishful thinking.

by pitchout487 on Jun 22, 2007 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maroth/Thames for...
Encarnacion and Looper.

That's what I've been seeing.

by WastedTalent on Jun 22, 2007 1:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

LOL
Where have you been seeing that? I highly doubt it.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 22, 2007 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oops...
Scratch that. My buddy C&P that for me, but it's an old rumor. Haha, my bad.

by WastedTalent on Jun 22, 2007 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thames is one player
I would like on my team.

by jillsinmo on Jun 22, 2007 1:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Looking like
it will be a PTBNL.

at least that's what some are saying that Detroit radio is saying.

Maybe it's Tommy Herr.

by Harknights on Jun 22, 2007 1:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

J-Rod and Dennis Dove
Just a prediction

by pitchout487 on Jun 22, 2007 1:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Dove
would fit the PTBNL, because you can't trade someone on the DL.

by CardFaninVA on Jun 22, 2007 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

According to Matthew Leach...
this is not a done deal yet, but close.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 22, 2007 1:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

My buddy
in Detroit (a huge Tigers fan) says there's nothing yet on who Cards are sending, but his money is on bullpen help.

by rockin redbird on Jun 22, 2007 1:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Olney's chimed in...
Still no word on other players involved though.

by WastedTalent on Jun 22, 2007 1:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

STL.com.....
says the deal is indeed for PTBNL...and is FINALIZED.....so he's comeing but no idea what we are giving up...I'm guessing someone on the DL also..

by Timbo02 on Jun 22, 2007 1:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Maroth has to be better than Kip Wells
PTBNL -  Don't they usually depend on how well the player does?  Or in this case is it a matter of need: we need Maroth immediately and the Tigers want to shop?

Anything that tries to improve us is okay in my book.

by ibby001 on Jun 22, 2007 2:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Here's what a BP chat said about PTBNL trades:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/chat/chat.php?chatId=291

-------------
Conor Glassey (Woodinville, WA): Hi Joe - Can you please explain how PTBNL trades generally work? Does a player's performance determine the level of the PTBNL? Obviously he won't continue hitting .350/.458/1.100, but are the Padres going to get a better player than they would have because Jack Cust is playing like an MVP for the A's?

Joe Sheehan: Probably a better question for Keith Law, but my understanding is that the teams generally agree on a pool of players, a short list, and the pick gets made by a certain time. I don't believe the PTBNL can be affected by the performance, after the fact, of the traded player.

by mikedallas23 on Jun 22, 2007 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe Jock
traded all of the players that everyone hates or is fed up with, or thinks is tanking, which leaves Pujols and... oh yeah, that's it.

by cardsrul on Jun 22, 2007 2:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Dennis Dove sounds like the best fit...
as the PTBNL. A hard throwing righty bullpen arm, exactly what the Tigers want.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 22, 2007 2:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You think so?
Is Dennis Dove straight up for Maroth a possibility? ...I have to think it's got to be more than just him...

by Timbo02 on Jun 22, 2007 2:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

in light of
the tigers earlier trade this week of a lhp straight up for a lhp (one w/o options for one w/), someone they've given up on (maroth) for a younger prospect would seem possible.

i'm also curious if ptbnl can be players...

by sdesserman on Jun 22, 2007 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

From the P-D:
"Maroth, a finesse lefty,..."

Maybe he can just pitch BP and teach our lineup how to hit soft-tossing lefties?

by john vb on Jun 22, 2007 2:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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