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Walt Jocketty to leave the Cardinals?

Today sure has been an interesting day.

First, it started with the rumor by on-air personality JC Cocoran saying that 'inside sources' believe that Walt Jocketty would be fired soon because of the team he has constructed.

Obviously that is bogus, but it got me worried.

Then, of course, the hair stood up on the back of my neck when Peter Gammons reported tonight on Baseball Tonight that word is that Jocketty will not return to the Cardinals after this upcoming season.

Star-divide

Gammons said that there were 'differences' inside the organizations that he believed would not be able to be overcome for Jocketty to return.

He said, of course, Jocketty can have his pick of any open job following this season as he is considered one of the top 2 GMs in baseball.

Anyways, thought I'd pass that along.

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Anyways, this is all speculation
and nothing is 'official' until Jocketty actually leaves the team at the end of the season, but here is my take.

DeWitt would be wise to offer Jocketty whatever it takes to keep him.  He may have big plans for his new employee Lunhow, but Jocketty was the man that constructed this fantastic stretch and nothing has really shown me that he can't do the same again.  Walt brought us McGwire, Edmonds, Rolen, Walker, Carpenter, Suppan, Izzy, Renteria, and Wainwright.  He has had his misteps, but when you have someone who is widely considered 'the best' you should hold on to that as long as possible.

I don't want to talk down on Lunhow or what he may or may not accomplish, however...if Jocketty leaves, I believe we are in for a LONGER rebuilding process than we currently are in and I also fear that such a rebuilding process will mean Pujols walks at the end of his deal.

If Jocketty is gone, expect a fire-sale next off-season of Edmonds, Rolen, Speizio, Kennedy, and anyone not named Carpenter/Pujols with a significant contract.

The end of the Jocketty era would mean a serious reduction, in my mind, of payroll and an attempt to build a younger team on 'the cheap' rather than re-evaluating the payroll based on current market conditions.

So, anyways, with all of this in mind, when you ask yourself why the Cardinals don't make a deal for an impact player or a Mark Buehrle, the odds on answer is because ownership has more than likely told the GM not to take on any significant contracts because they will be going in a different direction next season.

And, just to give you nightmares, once the Tribune Co. sells the Chicago Cubs franchise, more than likely they'll be looking for a new GM.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2007 12:31 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

+1
"...if Jocketty leaves, I believe we are in for a LONGER rebuilding process than we currently are in and I also fear that such a rebuilding process will mean Pujols walks at the end of his deal. "

I agree 100%. 200%, even.

by taiko on Jun 22, 2007 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't dislike Lunhow
and I'm sure he is a very intelligent man who is capable of doing the job.

However, if I stil lived near STL and I knew this situation was irreversible, I'd go to the game with a sign that read:


Hey Dewitt,
Jocketty =
McGwire, Edmonds
Rolen, Walker
Renteria, Carpenter
1 WS, 2 NL Pennants, 7 Division

Lunhow = Peter Kozma
the 1970's

or some such.

I'm more than a little unsettled at the potential of Jocketty leaving the organization.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2007 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shouldn't be an "either-or"
I'd like to see Jocketty get a firm commitment to stay, but at the same time retain Luhnow and forge a productive relationship. The two would appear to have very complimentary skillsets.

You knever know, though. We could be seeing another Mike Martz-style power play unfolding behind the scenes.

by taiko on Jun 22, 2007 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes
I have no problem with Lunhow being in the organization or with what he plans to do.

However, I don't think they should run Jocketty out of town after, what...1 year?

I trust Jocketty to be able to segway this team into a new era yet stay competitive.

The Cardinals need another starting pitcher and a corner outfielder to be successful again next year.

A rotation of:
Chris Carpenter
Mark Mulder
Anthony Reyes
Adam Wainwright
A 'good' Free Agent SP

would go a long way to this team being successful for next year and 2009.  The ownership has the money, the money they SAVED not signing Jason Schmidt to go out and get one of the good SP that will be availible this off-season.

Why does it have to be rebuilding, why can't it be reloading while having youth be served?  Get a corner outfielder to compliment the team until Ankiel or Rasmus are able to come up and produce.

Another argument for another day.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2007 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

GAH!!
Sorry. That last sentence just scared the crap out of me.

by rockin redbird on Jun 22, 2007 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow!
The fact that Walt is paid so little considering his success is a disgrace and DeWitt and Co. should be ashamed.  In light of that, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Walt takes his talent somewhere else this offseason.

That said, I'm a fan of Luhnow and think he'll do a great job if he ends up as GM.  I believe there needs to be a greater concentration on the farm and youth than there has been.  People point to Walt and/or DeWitt as the source of this year's problems w/ pitching, Juan in RF, etc.  To me, the fundamental problem is that the farm system just hasn't produced the young players we've needed and the older, higher priced veterans haven't produced.  Edmonds and Rolen are being paid for what they've done in the past.  Carp, through no fault of his own, hasn't helped the team at all (though he will; Rolen and Edmonds I'm not so sure about).

Walt has been the architect of the team's recent successes.  Make no mistake, over the last 7 years, this franchise has been the best in the NL -- there's no question about it and Walt deserves the lion's share of the credit for it.  But we're not going to be able to continue to plug in Kip Wells, Tomo Ohka, and Aaron Miles and expect to catch lightning in a bottle.  The team must produce high quality, young players so that these players can supplement the stars.  This "stars and scrubs" team just isn't going to get very far, now or ever again.

by chuckb on Jun 22, 2007 12:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Then, to me, that goes back on DeWitt
the worst thing that happened to this franchise was the new ballpark.

Instead of giving DeWitt a reason TO spend money, it gave him an excuse not to.  ("I paid for that stadium, costs, etc")

Are there really that many holes on this team?  The Cardinals are 1 power bat and 1 above average starting pitcher away from being a contender again in this league.

The players are out there to get, without blowing up the current model, should the Cardinals want to do it.

I'm just afraid ownership has their 'ring' and now it's time to stop chasing it.  That's a bad way to run a business in my mind.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2007 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

walt can't just leave
At least, I don't think he can.  He's on contract with STL through 2008; DeWitt exercised his '08 option after we made the playoffs last year.  Not completely sure how it works for GM's though.

As far as what he is paid, he gets just under $1M a year- I have a hard time feeling sorry for him.  He needs to suck it up.  And hurry up and trade J-Rod for Beuhrle already ;)

Don't Panic!!!

by SleepyCA on Jun 22, 2007 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

When
You think about the fact that Kip Wells is getting paid over $3 mil more than WJ is, then yes, Walt is grossly underpaid.

We need him back, and Dewitt better give him a raise if that's all it takes.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 22, 2007 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw the report on ESPN too......
I didn't think much of the report made by J. C. Corcoran that Walt was out, but Peter Gammons has what I would think are better sources.  Think back to Bernie's column a few days ago about the turmoil with the club, the players being upset, Tony always upset, and Jocketty has all but disappeared from speaking in public about anything.  He used to always talk to the press before--all very strange.  Tony's moves have often baffled me and I was listening to KFANS yesterday and a caller put their finger on something that seems about right--he plays the game as if they were all bench players--and with the injuries they virtually are, but he was doing that sort of thing before everyone was hurt.  Who's in the line-up on a regular basis?  Pujols and Rolen with an extra day of rest here and there.  Whether Jocketty's going or not, something ugly is going on in the Cardinal organization...

by jillsinmo on Jun 22, 2007 12:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So much so
that I clicked "post" nineteen times, I guess.

by plh903 on Jun 22, 2007 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uh oh
I remember talking to a buddy of mine this past winter that now that the Cards had won the World Series, DeWitt was going to slowly start selling the team and getting out with his pockets full of cash.

If Jocketty goes, I bet Larussa won't be far behind. And if LaRussa goes I bet Albert will will start wanting out too.

It's scary but I have a bad feeling we are going to look more like the Pittsburgh Pirates, Devil Rays, Royals, ect. in the coming years before we look like a contender for the playoffs.
I hope I'm wrong.  

by KYCards on Jun 22, 2007 2:35 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You know,
it's 18 months later, and this article still sticks with me; plus they now have the cash that came with last years Series and sales. That damn Will Leitch is a some sort of future telling witch.
Okay, quick... Everybody back on the bandwagon... Now back off... Back on... Now dance!

by Alxfritz on Jun 22, 2007 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

she turned me into a newt
i don't like that article.  far too accurate for my taste.  

by azruavatar on Jun 22, 2007 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Any article that uses
the populations of the core cities only as a starting point is immediately suspect.  Shouldn't he be comparing metropolitan areas as a starting point?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Jun 22, 2007 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One problem DeWitt has selling the team
is that if the team is sold, the bonds he set up to build the stadium all come due.  Meaning, if he sells the team he has to pay off his loan on the stadium.
Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 22, 2007 4:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you have a source?
I hadn't heard that; it's very interesting.

Even if so, I don't think there would be any way to stop DeWitt, personally, from selling his interest in the team (that would be pretty amazing if he put up a personal guarantee on the stadium loans)--the same legal entity would be in control, just with someone else's money behind it.

by blove121 on Jun 22, 2007 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
I forgot to add:
After I read this headline the following went through my head.....

I hope we enjoyed the ride because the train is about to stop.

What I'm worried about is that the next 7 games are against the Phillies and Mets two tough teams against our fragile starting rotation. This next week will really be a true indication if we are going to be buyers or sellers at the trading deadline and could determine the near future of the club. That LONG rebuilding process might start in about a month if DeWitt decides to throw in the towell.

by KYCards on Jun 22, 2007 3:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I just...
had to take a couple Gaviscon.  This team is going to give me ulcers by the time this season is over.

by mynameistyler on Jun 22, 2007 4:42 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Let him go
Who needs him anyway?  Luhnow can not land top free agents just like Jocketty can not land free agents.  Hell, I could go up there and not land free agents.  Nobody will trade with him any more, and if the organization is not willing to provide him the financial resources to do his job, what's the point of having "one of the top 2 GMs" in baseball anyway.   Its very clear that there is an organizational shift in philosophy toward player development.  Well, Jocketty's biggest strength has been flipping prospects for major league stars, and he's even sucked at that recently (see Haren, Dan.)  So, it's either DeWitt-ponder that sweet, sweet possibility for a minute-or Jocketty.  Hate to break it to ya, but DeWitt ain't goin' ANYWHERE.

We (people on this board, talk shows, drunks at bars, etc.) have been bitching for at least 2 years about how we never get any decent players via free agency, and he hasn't made a competent trade in at least as long (Walker being the last).  Now everyone's freaking out about him leaving?  Please.  

by farley503 on Jun 22, 2007 8:19 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I never had
A bad thing to say about Walt.  The free agents we didn't sign are not performing all that well.

Why wouldn't other gm's trade with him. If he gives up guys like Haren. The fact is Walt is one of the best in the business and he was the one that built the team we watched and loved the last ten years.

With all that said there still comes a time. Now might be that time. If so, I say thank Mr. Jocketty we will miss you!

by nybirdfan on Jun 22, 2007 9:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

just playing devils advocate here
but was is so great about what jocketty has done the last few years? after the larry walker trade, he's been in a pretty big slump. i can't really think of any trades he pulled off, other then the mulder trade and we all know how that went. and he traded for weaver, who obviously was a big help. his biggest off season signings the last few years is kip wells, adam kennedy, david eckstein and juan encarnacion. i know he'd probably do better in other circumstances, just saying i'm not expecting walt to pull off a deal that makes us all jump and shout in a long time. maybe many of the other front offices have caught up to him. and i don't have a huge issue with the org wanting to be cheap, if they can be smart. and it's the "smart guys" who walt and tony and DD don't see eye to eye with. not totally saying i believe all i just said, just pondering.

by erik on Jun 22, 2007 10:08 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Erik, I'll play along
The record of late looks average. We all bring up the Mulder trade as an example of failure on his part. I have to cut him some slack on that one. Mark Mulder pitched pretty well for the Cards, and was the lefty I thought we needed. Mark started out last season looking brilliant. Walt can't foresee and injury.

 Eckstien's signing was a fall back position when Edgar went to Boston. The fault might have been not signing Renteria. But Eckstien was MVP in the last WS. The other fact about Eck that the Card fans seam to care alot about his he is not over priced.

 I liked the JuanE signing, but Jaun was over sold to the fan base. Remember Jaun was replacing Reggie Sanders. I think Reggie wanted two years at 5 mill per. We got JuanE for three years at 5 mill per. If that is my choice I think I go with Juan. I know he plays right and looks like Larry Walker's replacement, but the  Walker replacement was going to be a mid-season deal we are all still waiting for.

 Now Kip Wells. There no doubt I am dissapionted. When they signed him I figured he worked out for Duncan and Tony and they advised Walt to make the deal. I will cut Walt some slack there.

 Kennedy, damn who could have predicted that he would fall off the edge of the world. I wasn't all that excited about the signing. I think most of us here are VEB hoped for better. When it was reported here that the Cards had spoken to Rich Aurilia I was hoping for him. Well, maybe that wouldn't have worked so well either.

by nybirdfan on Jun 22, 2007 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He built the core of the team...
Pujols, Rolen, Carpenter, Edmonds, Isringhausen... all were acquired on his watch. With those five guys the Cardinals have been able to go on a pretty good run. The reason that we haven't seen  bigger deals of late is that he has wanted to keep this core intact, and trade for complimentary pieces.

by taiko on Jun 22, 2007 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Give Walt a mid-year shot at a pitcher
If I recall, Walt Jocketty was hired by Anheuser-Busch and retained by the Bill Dewitt ownership team.  Tony Larussa came to the team under Jocketty/Dewitt.  It's surprising Walt is still in St. Louis, given the usual owner-GM turnover in major league baseball.

Dewitt has made it known the Cardinals cannot spend with the Yankees and Red Sox, and he's right (contact Bill Laurie for the benefits of massive overspending in the St. Louis market.)

So, the farm system has to produce, and free agents have to be obtained judiciously.

Walt's positives are many - but most of his best deals came when the Cardinals took on salary - ie Edmonds and Rolen and Walker.  There are fewer of those deals available now.  

Walt, and Tony/Dave, have problems evaluating young players.  Walt said Mark Mulder was a better pitcher than Danny Haren would be.  Looks like Haren is a lot better than Walt thought. Apparently, the Cardinals tried to get Oakland to take Jason Marquis, so somebody knew something about the futures of Haren and Marquis.

Walt pursued Jason Schmidt - who would have been a disastrous signing.  We don't know whether Walt, or Bill, wanted Schmidt.  The Cardinals also chased Randy Wolf, and he's showed up for the Dodgers at least.  Can anyone explain why Wolf wanted one year in LA over 2 in St. Louis?

Fans and columnists complain the Cardinals did not spend "all the money" they have - but look at how other teams spent freely on Schmidt and the top free-agent, Barry Zito.  Dewitt should be smiling that he did not waste $16m on Schmidt and $17m on Zito. For that matter, Jeff Suppan, Jason Marquis and Jeff Weaver, at $26m for this year, aren't earning their salaries, although the failure to sign at least one of those three before the 2006 season is puzzling and has led to the poor starting staff now taking the hill.

Stlll, if the Cardinals could obtain one major-league pitcher, by trade, add a restored Carpenter and Mulder to talented young pitchers Wainwright and Reyes, they would have a first-rate rotation in late 2007 or for 2008.

Who's better than Walt Jocketty to assess what it would take to get Mark Buehrle, Dontrelle Willis, or even Matt Morris?  Wonder if the Giants would offer Morris if St. Louis would take Bonds?

If I am Bill, I let Walt maneuver for the remainder of 2007 and evaluate Walt and Jeff Luhnow over the winter.

Tony's a separate decision and should be unrelated to the front-office decision.    

by ArchTiger on Jun 22, 2007 12:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Randy Wolf
He wanted to pitch on the west coast, don't know if he's from there or he just likes the weather.  Dodgers have a great fan base and a great tradition.  As much as I love the Cardinals and St. Louis, I can certainly understand someone preferring the Dodgers and LA.  

by jillsinmo on Jun 22, 2007 1:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

jill, you will appreciate this
randy wolf chose los angeles because his mother lives there, and he has a close relationship w/ her and wanted to be near her.

not making that up; that's what i read when he signed.

by lboros on Jun 22, 2007 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lboros...
You are right-that is so awesome!  She probably never got to see him pitch much since he was clear across the country......

by jillsinmo on Jun 22, 2007 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Overreacting..
I think a lot of people are overreacting on this subject a little bit.

The Cardinals are not going to be sold.  

About 15 other teams would be sold before the Cardinals were to be sold.

Do you remember a couple years ago when Billy Beane was threatening to go else where?  What became of that?  Nothing.

Jocketty made one mistake with Haren.  There really haven't been that many mistakes in his career.  We can blame him all we want, but he's human.  At the time, did you think a catcher that was yet to develop power and had average defense and a decent young pitcher with an almost 2/1 BB/K ratio and a middle of the road reliever for a top lefthanded pitcher would be a bad trade?

Everything I want to say has been mentioned.  There are rumors every day in baseball -- Torre will be fired, etc.  Nothing will come of this.

by KeepOnRolen on Jun 22, 2007 2:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Where can we voice our concern?
I want to know where Cards fans like ourselves can let our opinion be known.  

Hardcore Legend put it perfectly:

Jocketty =
McGwire, Edmonds
Rolen, Walker
Renteria, Carpenter
1 WS, 2 NL Pennants, 7 Division

Any help would be much appreciated!

by stltrav09 on Jun 22, 2007 8:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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