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we find the defendant . . . .

how fitting that the cardinals will face danny haren tonight. . . . . .

in this trial that i'm hearing, the defendant faces (among various charges) four counts of fraud. he's accused of passing himself off as a professional in a discipline in which he had no training and held no license to practice --- a total imposter. when i look at this guy today in court, something tells me i'm going to see kip wells' face. 4 walks, a hit batsmen, and a wild pitch in 11 batters faced? that's plain criminal --- and the case is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. in the people v. wells, the jury's already in: get the man off the streets before he ruins more lives, for god's sake.

and as long as i'm sitting in judgment, i gotta cast a guilty vote against la russa and duncan. for the second consecutive year, they've done a poor job of coping with an injury at the top of the rotation, making inefficient use of the available personnel; for the second consecutive year, they've pig-headedly clung to faulty decisions rather than admit what's obvious to everyone, ie their choices are not working out. when they finally do conclude that it's time to drop wells from the rotation (and for all i know that determination has already been made), they'll be the last ones to get there; the fans, sportswriters, talk-show hosts, and even lowly bloggers have been coming around to that position for that last 3 or 4 starts. it will be a bitter pill; duncan hand-picked wells, and he and tony anointed the guy the #2 starting pitcher. they can't blame this one on the front office or on tight-fisted owners; wells was their guy, and they were wrong about him.

just as they were wrong about marquis last year; just as they were wrong (or blind, or in denial) about mulder's injury and is'hausen's hip.

another mistake they've made two years in a row: refusing to bolster the collapsing rotation with an available starting pitcher who's pitching well in the bullpen --- and who was designated as rotation insurance at the outset of the year. last year it was wainwright; this year, ryan franklin. both are career-long starting pitchers who were brought to spring training as thickener --- to sop up starts in case somebody got hurt or pitched himself off the staff. yet when that very need arose, neither was used to plug the rotation hole because --- via logic only tony and dave understand --- they were pitching so well. . . . . i mean, the rotation's in tatters and the bullpen's being shredded by the burden of throwing 4 innings a night; the cardinals' team era is now above 5.00 for the season, and they're dead last in the league in that category. yet la russa has bristled at reporters' suggestions that franklin be used in the role for which he was acquired, i.e. as the #6 starting pitcher. same thing happened last summer with wainwright --- and yes, i'm well aware that wainwright's presence in the bullpen helped the cardinals win in october. but the cardinals almost didn't get to october, and if they hadn't the fault would have lain primarily with dave and tony's mulish inflexibility vis-vis the rotation. all summer they insisted on giving starts to the incompetent marquis and (whenever possible) the injured mulder, while wasting wainwright in the setup role. as we found in october, it's not that difficult to find a setup man. josh kinney --- is he such a special player? ryan franklin's not such a special player either, and his talents are not so unique that no one else on the staff could step into his role. i bet russ springer could handle it. brad thompson briefly had an angle on the job. maybe wellemeyer could do it; he pitched well in key relief spots before they moved him to the rotation. hell, andy cavazos has looked good so far; maybe he'll be this year's version of kinney.

franklin will never be considered anybody's #2 (well, maybe on this staff), but he might be a useful #4 --- something wells obviously isn't. it's time to put him into the rotation, restore reyes, and ship wells to the 'pen and kelvin jimenez back to memphis. like so:

rotation bullpen
wainwright izzy
looper springer
franklin flores
reyes wellemeyer
thompson johnson
cavazos
wells

when carpenter returns, then thompson moves back to the bullpen --- the rotation is carp, franklin, wainer, looper, and reyes, while the 8th-inning role gets filled by thompson, springer, or whoever else happens to claim it.

dave and tony don't like to disrupt things that are working --- i understand the impulse --- and the bullpen endgame is one of the few parts of the cardinal pitching staff that works. but when your car's engine doesn't run, so what if it has a really kick-ass stereo, or an awesome paint job? the cardinals have yielded 5 or more runs 13 times in their last 20 games. that's how you lose series to last-place teams like the royals and nationals; that's how you fall far behind the division leaders even in a terrible division like the nl central. the front office took some risks when restocking the rotation this year, but it also provided some contingencies --- ryan franklin being the chief one. if la russa n duncan don't use it, that's their own fault.

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Zambrano and Yadi
In this morning's Chicago Tribune, Zambrano made a cryptic remark about Yadi being his next catcher.

I chalk it up to Z being Z, and nothing more.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-070614cubsbits,1,2574558.story?coll=chi-sports top-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

by PopUp Rolen on Jun 15, 2007 7:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Maybe he means
We're going to use Yadi in a deal to get Marquis back.

I keed. I don't think I'd ever want a hothead like Z on the team... well maybe if he could hold it together for some 18-20 win seasons without blowing up on everyone.

by paCardsFan on Jun 15, 2007 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree.....
I would love to have Zambrano on my team.  While the spotlight was on Wood and Prior, Zambrano is the one who developed into a good pitcher.  He's healthy, he's fiery, and the young man can pitch.  I'll take the baggage-and if you're going to comment on him punching Michael Barrett-well, he just did what the rest of the pitching staff wanted to do.  Barrett is just awful behing the plate.  I say sign him....if only to p@#s off Cubs fans...

by jillsinmo on Jun 15, 2007 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He carries
a decent stick as well...

by billyhoyel on Jun 15, 2007 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's right
He has 12 homers in his career, and batting average around .240---a creative AL team might find a spot for him as a DH when he's not pitching.  Oakland would try something like that......

by jillsinmo on Jun 15, 2007 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

paging Mr. Andujar...
The Cardinals have never had a hothead starter in their rotation.

by Valatan on Jun 15, 2007 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tavares too!
n/a
So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Jun 15, 2007 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Z's the Man
One man's hothead is another man's fierce competitor.  Z's a bona fide talent.  I'd love to have 'em.
So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Jun 15, 2007 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe I'm the only one
who doesn't want Zambrano on this board, but I at least have my reasons.  He's been steadily declining over the last couple of years, and I'm worried about injuries.  Remember, he did get the under-25 Dusty Baker treatment, so how certain are we that his arm would hold up long enough to make that 90M pay day worthwhile?

by Phyrkrakr on Jun 15, 2007 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree 1000%
I agree, I dont want to see Zambrano in St Louis, ever. Im not interested in his bat or his arm, especially not his bat, geez, hes a pitcher. He is on the decline except for his mouth that promised Chicago both a Cy Young Award and a WS win after he got the 6+ million raise after he came to camp and found out what the free agents got over the off season and disprupted spring training with public demands and tirades in the newspapers. Now hes teasing Chicago about coming to St louis! Funny!

Theres a thin line between a "fiery competitor" and a "disruptive force" on a team and I dont think the Cardinals are realistically interested in finding out how his presence would effect the team for the amount of money it would take to get him.

The same people that support Zambrano coming here are many of the same people that went on and on about Buerhle being out of St Lous signing range, but they suddenly think we can sign Zambrano??? It'll never happen anyway, so no need to say more. Buerhle wont be here anytime soon either. Unless Chicago is desperate and Buerhle gives a huge home town discount, it wont happen.

"I don't need a damn number to tell me the guy's no good right now!" Old Casey.... Pitching, base running and defense!

by cardschinmusic on Jun 16, 2007 5:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mostly Agree
with your assessment of the best track.  However, I'm willing to give Wellemeyer another start or two.  He's shown flashes of pretty good pitching at times, despite the control problems; I like his arm enough to give him a few more shots.  Not many more, just a couple more.  

As for Wells, though, seriously.  C'mon, guys, call it a day.  

Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 15, 2007 7:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wellemeyer
Wellemeyer has shown flashes, agreed.  But you shouldn't work someone in as a starter when you are trying to win major league games. That should be done during spring training or in the minors.

http://whiteyball.wordpress.com

by whiteyball on Jun 15, 2007 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds like a plan
Sure was hard watching that last night. You could see the whole teams demeanor plummet in the bottom of the second. For me it was the hit batsman on an 0-2 count and the bases loaded. I said some things out loud that my wife scolded me for.

If Kip starts another game for the Cards then I'll know TLR truly is tanking the season.

by paCardsFan on Jun 15, 2007 7:55 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Spot on
Watching the game last night, the team came out looking pretty good.  Pretty good at bats early on, put up a run in the first, then Duncan goes yard and you feel like they're going to put it on Elarton.  Then, as Kippy did his thing in the second, you could literally see the players just curling at the edges, like a houseplant you've forgotten to water.  Every ball Wells threw in that inning, you could see an actual, physical reaction from the players in the field.  When he hit DeLucci, you got the feeling that every one of his team members just thought to themselves, "it doesn't matter what we do, he's just gonna give it away."  

By the time they came back into the dugout, these players, who looked ready and loose half an hour earlier, looked more like survivors of an earthquake.  Wellshocked.  

Acquire Rocco Baldelli!

by the red baron on Jun 15, 2007 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

heh heh
Wellshocked. Nice.

by paCardsFan on Jun 15, 2007 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It is pain to see
That Wells can not take the mound for another start this year. Reyes needs to be recalled and let alone! If Franklin got a start at Wellemyer's expense that would be ok with me.

by nybirdfan on Jun 15, 2007 7:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

pain/plain
Equally appropriate.
youneverknow

by meat on Jun 15, 2007 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess
I didn't catch that, but you are right: makes little differance

by nybirdfan on Jun 15, 2007 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Amen
And if they don't want to use Franklin, sign me.  I would be putting the fear of god into opposing hitters with my 70 mph fastball and my curve that doesn't.....really....curve....so much....

But hey, i can't me much worse than Kip.

by Irishman on Jun 15, 2007 8:02 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

......what to do?
The worse case scenario....Franklin caves in from the weight of being cast into the role of rotation savior and being overexposed in a starting role after two + months in the pen. Then cant seem to find his role in the bullpen after the failed starter experiment and no longer has a real strength in either.

Maybe thats what LaDunca worry MORE about than having the vacancy in the 8th inning spot? The bullpens looking fairly weak to me right now and I dont see it ALL as being from over-use, worn out, exhaustion, etc. Theres more to it than being "tired"!.. tho Im pretty sure Springer could fill that 8th inning role. Then theres always the looming legacy of Percival in Memphis.

But, even if thats how it pans out...I dont know that I want to see Wells in the pen. Maybe he needs to be cut and just stick Reyes back in that spot and pray for Carpenter and Mulder to come back to a team still in the central hunt and move Wellemeyer and Thompson back to the pen. Going back down the Reyes road is pretty popular here, Im not sure Im in support of it, but if no trades or purchases can be made, its the best move we've got.

Wells becomes a mop-up guy otherwise. Hope their on the road the day that happens for the first time. Let him go.

"I don't need a damn number to tell me the guy's no good right now!" Old Casey.... Pitching, base running and defense!

by cardschinmusic on Jun 15, 2007 8:29 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Send Wells to the minors
he obviously needs to work on his pitching.  And if he refuses, invent an injury and some re-hab starts-and if that doesn't work give him his walking papers.  That was the worst performance I had ever seen by a starting pitcher.   When you score 8 runs there is no way you should lose.....

by jillsinmo on Jun 15, 2007 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I gotta tell you
I'm reluctant to move Franklin to the rotation too.   We know what happens when you have a crappy bullpen.

To me, moving Franklin is irrelevant since we have Reyes sitting at AAA.

by sdrone on Jun 15, 2007 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey Larry
I thought you weren't supposed to disclose any details of the case until after it was over? What are you going for---a mistrial?

by salvomania on Jun 15, 2007 9:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

that's just the d.a.'s filing
it's the charge; the language comes directly from the information and complaint. it's not evidence per se, ie it's not anything i will be deliberating on --- not anything that will be used in determining the verdict. as i understand the judge's admonition (and lawyers, correct me if i'm in trouble here), i'm only forbidden from discussing the witnesses, exhibits, etc on which i will be deliberating. but since i will not be deliberating on the accusation itself, i'm free to state it.

by lboros on Jun 15, 2007 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

just a law student here ...
... but i think you're just fine, LB.
matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jun 15, 2007 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Grand Juries
are sworn to secrecy. We couldn't talk about anything, not even our wivies. Once we handed down an indictment and it was made public I would then tell me wife what the details were.

 She is now serving on a federal grand jury. It is cool cause some of the drug dealers we indicted are now witnesses in her jury room.

by nybirdfan on Jun 15, 2007 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

currently studying for bar exam
I don't think you've gone too far here, but I'm pretty sure judges don't want jurors blogging about their cases until after the trial is over.  

The biggest problem I could imagine would be somebody posting a message here saying "hey - i know they guy you're talking about in the trial, he's totally guilty/not guilty because xxx, yyy, zzz."  That could create a big headache for the judge later on, if the guy loses and decides to appeal because a juror received improper information.  

That kind of problem doesn't seem likely, but it's at least plausible.  You've provided enough information for someone familiar with the trial to recognize it, and it's at least conceivable that the defendant (or the defendant's lawyer) has a relative or friend who follows the Cards and reads VEB.  I wouldn't post any more information about the trial until it's done.

by mattlo on Jun 15, 2007 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

guilty!
while rules differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, i think you are probably technically correct that you are not discussing anything off-limits.  however, by saying that you think that you will look at the (as yet innocent) defendant and see the face of kip wells - whom you have (and I concur)declared guilty - you MIGHT give the appearance that you've already made up your mind about the guilt of the accused before hearing a scintilla of evidence.  probably not enough to boot you off the jury and/or hold you in contempt of court, but I'd exercise care.  plus you have to assume that counsel is going to have a paralegal scan your blog at some point.  i certainly would!

by ChiTown CardFan on Jun 15, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

what I'm hearing is that as a blog
the commenters from this point on should probably not make any more references and or analogies to the case.  Don't talk about circumstances you've been in, don't say you think XXX about fraud or you've had YYY experience.  Just for caution's sake, let's make this a taboo subject moving forward for this thread.

by azruavatar on Jun 15, 2007 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bad Larry
I was thinking ths same thing. In fact in Boston there was a Doctor who was being sued who was outted on the stand as Flea, who was blogging about the trial. He had to settle his case. Had he not been blogging he would have won the case.
http://welcometojohnsonville.blogspot.com

by arthropodtodd on Jun 15, 2007 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

TLR and Duncan
Remember, they are best with veteran teams (especially pitching veterans), not the new look the Cards are going to have over the next few years.  Maybe, it's time to move on.

by raisin on Jun 15, 2007 9:28 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Money
How much does it cost the team to waive Wells anyway?

by jomfa on Jun 15, 2007 9:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

the rest of his salary
he's owed $4 million this year so we'd have to pay the rest of it -- about $2.5 million.  But it's time to go!

by chuckb on Jun 15, 2007 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

money
if they release him, they are on the hook for his salary until (if) he is picked up by another team.  If the team that picks him up signs to him to a smaller contract, the Cards would be on the hook for whatever the difference would be.  since the Cards are paying him $4 million over the course of the year, it is not likely that anyone would sign him for more than that (even pro-rated over the remainder of the year), so the cards would likely be on the hook for a large portion of the rest of it.  this is why the first option is just to release him altogether.  try to see if he works in the bullpen first.

by Irishman on Jun 15, 2007 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sorry
I meant to say they DON'T want to release him as their first option.

by Irishman on Jun 15, 2007 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A Sunk Cost
He's guaranteed $4,000,000 whether we keep him on the roster or not.

If we DFA'd him today, that'd work out to $70,175.44 per strikeout or $17,391 per out recorded.

by liam on Jun 15, 2007 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why waive him?
Put him in Jimenez's role...

by guayzimi on Jun 15, 2007 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

When you're right
you're right.  I was trying to figure out this dilemma earlier -- 2 relievers in the rotation (Thompson and Wellemeyer) and 1 starter who should be selling insurance (no offense to any insurance salespeople) -- and 1 starter ready in the minors.  It would be easy if Tony/Dunc/Walt couldn't decide which starter to replace w/ Reyes.  I forgot all about Franklin and though I was with them for a while in believing Franklin should stay in the 'pen, you're right in saying that we can find someone else to do his job.

I thought coming into the season that Springer had a good chance at the 8th inning role.  Why can't he or Wellemeyer or Cavazos or someone get the few leads we have to Izzy.  Hell, Izzy's been great and deserves to be on the All-Star team but he won't be.  Why?  Not enough saves.  Maybe if we put 2 decent starters in the rotation we can quit having him pitch the 7th inning of a 9 run shellacking!

by chuckb on Jun 15, 2007 9:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wells and LaRussa/Duncan
Right on Larry.  Totally concur.  Unbelievably frustrating that Wells has continued to be used.  It has to be mental (Wells of couse-but LaDunc for continuing to trot him out there as well) but now he should be someone else's problem.  I'm going to the Oakland game tonight since I'm in San Francisco on a matter.  However, I had to study the rotation 10 days ago before getting tickets to be certain that I was not going to pay to see Kip Wells pitch again.  Perhaps it is time for LaRussa/Duncan to move on, or if not, then Jocketty needs to take charge.  For gosh sakes, Reyes has to be brought back now, doesn't he?  I would think that Jocketty should just say, "here Anthony is, now use him."

by MortLA on Jun 15, 2007 9:52 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

if i take a lead pipe to Wells'
knee, can the people from this blog be my jury of 'peers'.  Cause if that's what I got to do to end this Marquisian reprise of last year, I'll take one for the team.

by azruavatar on Jun 15, 2007 9:53 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

you know it's a tough year
when we are considering going all tonya harding on one of our own players....

by Irishman on Jun 15, 2007 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

PT
They'd still probably send him on there on his next rotation - even with a bum knee. He couldn't do any worse really...

by billyhoyel on Jun 15, 2007 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Silver lining?
Maybe last night was ugly enough to prompt Tony & Dave to make changes along the lines of lboros suggestions.  History would indicate their willingness to stay with Wells longer than necessary without some kind of major embarrassment like last night.  It's not like we were taken apart by an offensive juggernaut like the Yankees, Mets or Red Sox.  Certainly wouldn't hurt to try something different.  Our bullpen is absolutely fried at this point.  We have got to get more - and obviously better - innings out of the starters.

Makes me think of a Monty Python quote:  "and now for something completely different."

by wildman on Jun 15, 2007 9:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wells
I was rooting for him, honestly. But I get a worse feeling when he pitches than I did when Bipolar Betty pitched. At least his collapses were entertaining--home runs and the such. Wells just walks a bunch of people and then give up two-run singles. The ineptitude just oozes through the television. I'd vote to release him. Why take starts from someone in Memphis?
"I don't believe what I just saw!" ~ Jack Buck

by itsalemmon1019 on Jun 15, 2007 10:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Tonight's Game
Tonight should be interesting. Watching Dan Haren flourish after being traded away should be brought up repeatedly. Unfortunately I think (actually I am 100% certain) that broadcasters won't have the stones to do it.

But if it were done, LaRussa and or Duncan should be hounded by questions of:

  • Why did you give up on him (Haren)? (and if erik is right and the answer was pitching to contact) then...
  • Where did he learn to throw the split?
  • Was it in St. Louis?
  • Is this something that is easily taught to pitchers?
  • Do you think that may be the solution to Anthony Reyes' problems?

by bdief on Jun 15, 2007 10:12 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

haren
i don't think walacan gave up on haren . . . they just thought that Mulder would be good . . . that he would put the Cards over the hump in '05 & maybe '06 . . . the trade (imho) was really made for the short term--i think the cards knew haren would be good--they just knew that he wouldn't be good enough soon enough
Here's to the hopeful resurection of the MV3

by SprfldCards on Jun 15, 2007 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Win now
Agreed that they didn't give up on Haren.  They were "going for it" in 2005-2006 and thought someone like Mulder would be a difference-maker.  It takes trading someone with a future like Haren to get a "proven performer" like a Mulder.  Lboros recent post on mid-season trades for a proven starter shows the kind of talent required to made that kind of deal.  I think Walt knew that he was giving up something good.

by wildman on Jun 15, 2007 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm almost positive
that Haren used the splitter when he was in StL.  

by silent_bob on Jun 15, 2007 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm Absolutely Positive
that Haren had the split in his arsenal while in STL...
it was his second pitch in college...

If I remember right he didn't throw the split much in the low levels of the minors so that he could work on his changeup and slider, but he went back to the splitter after his first small stint in the majors (and he used it a lot in the playoffs in 04)

I believe his 10.55 K/9 IP in 130 IP in AAA is evidence of the use of his out-pitch, the splitter...

I always thought that the Cards traded Haren because LaDuncan were not happy with the attitude Haren showed while in the majors...He was quick to go to the 'slouched shoulders' form when things went wrong and I remember the disgusting look on Duncan's face when that happened...

that and there distate for anyone who tries to strike out more than 4 guys per 9 innings...

by tenniseleven on Jun 15, 2007 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Strikeouts are ok
If you can get them with a curve or sinker.  If you use a 4 seam or changeup, forget it.

by DriverZn on Jun 15, 2007 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

slouched shoulders
I don't remember the slouched shoulders so much as the effectiveness of Haren in the WS against the sox--especially compared to the other cards pitchers
Here's to the hopeful resurection of the MV3

by SprfldCards on Jun 15, 2007 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still don't get why everyone blames the '04
series on the pitching.  That game 1 was a disaster on both sides, and after that, the offense just refused to produce: the cards scored 2, 1, and 0 runs in games 2, 3 and 4.  The Red Sox scored six in game two, but only scored 4 and 3 in games 3 and 4.   The fact that everyone but Albert and Larry Walker refused to hit was the thing that cost us that series.

by Valatan on Jun 15, 2007 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A simple request
Could we please go at least five years without seeing a pitcher wear #21?  The very sight is enough to induce nausea.
Personally, I think we got hosed on that call.

by TurdFerguson on Jun 15, 2007 10:27 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I had that thought
back in Spring Training when I first saw Kippper wearing "that number".  

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 15, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It should just be retired anyways
there is a certain CF who deserves it.  Of course, this team will never do it as I'm sure someone is still bitter he took a stand against THEM.

Maybe there is SOMETHING to the number being cursed then.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 15, 2007 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bake McBride?
or Shawon Dunston? Either way, I agree.
Okay, quick... Everybody back on the bandwagon... Now back off!

by Alxfritz on Jun 15, 2007 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Another CF (prior to the Baker)
I believe Hardcore is referring to Curt Flood.

by 10worldchamps on Jun 15, 2007 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If so,
then I would agree w/ retiring that number (and that it may be cursed, although Curtis Granderson reversed that curse in Oct.'06).  

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 15, 2007 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

21 and 51
Should both be retired. I honestly don't understand why they're not.
Okay, quick... Everybody back on the bandwagon... Now back off!

by Alxfritz on Jun 15, 2007 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can you imagine...
the response if Kipper was "pitching" for a less "media-friendly" team than the Cardinals? (Albeit, the rise of "shock" sports-talk radio has given "rippers" more of an outlet than existed in the halcyon days of KMOX's "Sports Open Line"...)

Good Lord, if Wells had been pitching for the Yanks or Sawks at home, the fans there might've rushed the field and disembowelled the guy!

Do what you will with Wells; but there's no doubt in my mind that the Cardinals would be better served by bringing Anthony Reyes back to the Show and starting him in five days!

It's a beautiful day for a ballgame!

by The Ol Goaler on Jun 15, 2007 10:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

that's the only good contribution
wells has made to cardinal nation in quite some time.

by azruavatar on Jun 15, 2007 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Check out
Bernie's Extra Points blog at STLtoday.com.  His horse racing analogy sums the whole situation up pretty well.  

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 15, 2007 11:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Screw the minors..
send that bum to the free agent market.  

by stltrav09 on Jun 15, 2007 11:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That was a great column by Bernie.....
If Wells starts again, I am going to explode.  I've said it so many times I don't even want to repeat it...but they sent the wrong guy down.  Wells is the one who obviously needs to work on his pitching in the minor leagues.  Reyes should be learning his craft with the big boys--that's the only way we are going to know if he can do it.  Every time I look at the box scores and see Haren perched on top of the AL ERA stats, I get a little sick to my stomach.  LaDunc IS the problem!  They can't work with any pitcher that deviates from their plan.  They have NO creativity-instead of looking at what your player can't do, you should be looking at what they CAN do and devise your plan based on that.  You know how you can buy things that say one size fits all?  There are some people that one size ain't going to fit-deal with it.  One last thing-folks are always complaining about Reyes' mechanics, and he sure looks funny throwing, and they might even be bad, but he has NEVER been on the disabled list-not once in his whole career since he's turned pro.  I read he had a serious arm injury in college when he was a sophomore-missed the entire year.  But he did come back and pitch his regular turns in his junior and senior year of college.  If we give up on him before we KNOW for sure IF he can make it in the majors, we may live to regret it.  Dan Haren, anyone?

by jillsinmo on Jun 15, 2007 12:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

And another thing
I want LaDunc GONE!  They are old and tired and have no creativity, they don't like to work with youth--I want them out of here before they have a chance to screw up some of the wonderful talent that's emerged on the AA club.

by jillsinmo on Jun 15, 2007 12:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

have a little faith
see october of last year . . . when ladunc went with youth and won . . . it isn't their fault that carp has spurs, yadi broke his hand, jimmy & enc are/were recovering from surg, eckstein has been out, kennedy has not lived up to his career norms, pujols was slumping . . . sometimes injuries happen . . . their judgement on wells may have been wrong--but most people believed in kip when he was signed--i think he was a good risk--things could be worse . . . we could have signed schmidt. then he would be on the dl with carp, we would still have all those losses, and no payroll room . . . have hope we are in the nl central
Here's to the hopeful resurection of the MV3

by SprfldCards on Jun 15, 2007 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is supposed to be funny, not mean...
you are telling me the guys who batted the pitcher 8th, regularly pinch hit pitchers, and move every reliever known to man into the starting rotation dont have any creativity...?

by jealousblues on Jun 15, 2007 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i posted this last night
and it was the last post of the night so i doubt it was seen by many, so i am going to repost it:

"just what do u say after a game like this? yes i agree with everybody here, wells SHOULD be dfa'd right now, but for some reason i just wouldnt be surprised if that doesnt happen

at this point, how could reyes possibly be any worse? i dont think it is possible

i also would like to see jimenez sent out, but who should replace him? dove and falkenborg have both been up and failed already, i dont think percival will be ready for at least a week or more, so what does that leave, should they try perez now? he couldnt be any worse

i have to say as well, a game like this makes it so hard to have any good feelings about the team, the offense did ok, but how often do u face elarton?

how sad is it to think that marquis, simontacchi, woody, even ponson could possibly all right now make our starting rotation better?"

a few things to add, i think larrys analogy to the car(great stereo vs bad motor) is a very good one in this case, as he said, if the rotation were doing even a half ass job, ladunc would have an excuse to leave franklin in the setup, but with the way things are going, we dont need a setup man, because there are no leads to get to the ninth because of the starters

also about big z, if we could somehow get him, i would love it, i am not saying i like him now, but that is just because he is a cub, if u put him in st louis with pujols and yadi for support, i really think he would dominate

one other small thought, as bad as mulder was when hurt last year, was it any worse than kip right now? and the man's arm was about to fall off

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Jun 15, 2007 12:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Simontacchi
Looked good yesterday. Good for him, I hope he succeeds in his comeback.

by paCardsFan on Jun 15, 2007 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No one gave up on Haren
It has already been discussed here today.  They knew he would be good (see Duncan's comments in the preview for the upcoming game on the Cards' home page at MLB).  Mulder fit the "win now" plan for '05 & '06 better, that's all.  And in '05, Mulder was good - a 16 win season.  Of course, '06 didn't pan out.  Some people didn't like the trade then and it looks worse now that DH is doing so well.  But no one minded when we ruled the division and sewed up the Central title in mid-September '05 (on a Mulder victory over the Cubs, no less).  Personally, I'm happy for his success.  That said, I don't look forward to facing Danny tonight because he has been so good this year.    

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 15, 2007 12:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Today's Haiku!
Former Cardinal
maybe one that got away
release kip wells please
Good pitching will beat good hitting any time, and vice versa. ~Bob Veale, 1966

by bukowski on Jun 15, 2007 12:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Minority Opinion
I still think Kip Wells can turn his season around. We can skip him a start, use Reyes on Sunday and push Thompson back to Wells' start on Monday. Have him available out of the bullpen, if necessary and give him a week to prepare for Philadelphia next Sunday. He's had some success against in the past. (Box1, Box2)

I was at the last game he won. I've seen him pitch well, dammit.

by liam on Jun 15, 2007 1:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Da Rotation
Hey, it's easy to dump on Wells with his 6.93 era and a day after a disgraceful performance in KC.  Easy too, by association, to get on the Tony & Dave must go bandwagon.
 I'm as disapointed as anyone about Wells; he's been awful.  But I don't agree that it's time to swap him for Franklin in the rotation.  Franklin is florishing in his present role, and he has no history of florishing as a starter. He seems fine just where he is. Wells, it seems to me, has vastly better stuff.  That obviously hasn't translated in results, but we owe this guy 2.5 mil.  Give him two or three more starts - if he continues to pitch poorly, bye bye.  Meanwhile, get that now more confident Reyes back here, drop J man to AAA and either Welly or Thomp to bloster the pen.
  LaRussa and Duncan are a little pig headed at times, but their track record speaks for itself.  I'm sorry, but the Wells - Marquis dog won't hunt. The Cardinal rotations, then and now, are hugely different; as are Wells talent and Marquis. I would harken back to advice given here some time ago, but since discarded - just enjoy the season, root for the Birds and see how the thing plays out.  Let LaRussa and Duncan do the deep thinking - Deweydell
 

by deweydell on Jun 15, 2007 1:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Last 30 days
Go to MLB.com and look at our pitching the last 30 days...

On the good side of things it looks like Wagonmaker has turned the corner.

As for the other starters. Ick. We have two starters who have Walked more than they K'd. That's no good...and can someone tell me why Jimenez gets the innings and appearances to give up 22 runs in 12 innings?!? Really. Can LaDunc just tell us what it will take to bring up Reyes, not start Wells (I agree that he would be perfect to take Jimenez's spot) and be ride of Jimenez.

by Harknights on Jun 15, 2007 1:39 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Why send Wells to the rotation?
Considering he doesn't seem to be the type of guy who "bares down and gets outs," I would hate to have him in the pen.

We might as well just release him and declare the Kip Wells era over. It's time to bring up Reyes.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 15, 2007 1:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

His problem is command more than sheer stuff
it would make sense to tell him to work on one or two pitches, really get them down, and bare down in the 'pen.  Start him out as an innings eater, long relief guy and see if he can make progress.

by Valatan on Jun 15, 2007 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well yeah
Good point about bringing down his pitch slection. He might do better if he focused on one or two.

I guess he could be a decent innings eater. And in order to make room for Reyes, we could probably afford to send down Jiminez.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 15, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Larry, an alternate solution
You left out the possibility of Percival in the 8th inning slot, he might not be great, but he has experience so I'm sure LaDunc is eager to give him a shot.
I''m a Jenius!

by gibbons on Jun 15, 2007 2:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Of course they are.....
Percival is even better than a veteran-he was a retired veteran!  Fits nicely with the almost retired veteran Kelly Stinnett.  

by jillsinmo on Jun 15, 2007 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wells' philosophy
as to pitch location seems to similar to that of Rooster Cogburn - "them I ain't hittin' I ain't aimin' at"

by wildman on Jun 15, 2007 2:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

did anyone see
the Busch Light post game show on Fox Sports Midwest?? I didn't see it, but I am assuming they interviewed Wells.  If anyone saw it, i would be eager to here what he said and if they asked him if he expects to start his next start.

by Dave0585 on Jun 15, 2007 4:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

he was depressed as usual
last question asked was along the line if he thought he'd be pulled from the rotation. he said he the thought never crossed his mind, and quote "I have more important things to worry about." and that was the end of the interview. what could be more important than being unemployed and not being able to provide for your family? i dont know.

i feel really bad for KIPPY. because unlike betty last year, KIPPY actually cares about the Cards and his performace. he's doing his best to win. and it's just not happening. what's worse is he's one of the "good guys" in baseball. that's why Tony & Dave are having such a hard time desiding what to do with him. not only was he their guy like Larry pointed out this morning. he's a great teammate, and a better person. i dont care what us fans think or say, no one is having a worse time than KIPPY, Tony & Dave dealing with KIPPY's failures this season than they are. they are the ones personally invested in his success, and not only is he not a success, he's one of the biggest pitching failures in the history of baseball.

there is no easy fix or answer. cutting KIPPY lose, sending him to Memphis,the bullpen or to africa. the Cards still are the worst pitching staff in the history of baseball as the defending world series champion. they needed KIPPY to be a success, and now that he's not. what do they do? Walt wont make a trade, even if he could find a willing team, he's wont ever part with prospects to win now like he did with Danny. and no matter what you say, there is no easy answer. we fans quickly forget that the athlete's we pull for are people too. and when they fail, especially as badly as KIPPY has failed, it's important to keep in mind he's a person too. he's hurting too, and a family to care for.

I got a bad feeling going into tonights game. Danny has a great chance to no hit the Cards. it's another revenge game. and after the beating they took last night, and the looks on their faces during and after the game. every thing is going against them. the A's are an awesome, awesome team. and Danny's been dealing all season long. he really could no hit them tonight. in fact, i'm expecting him too.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 15, 2007 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's making
$4 million in one year. I don't think he has to worry about providing for his family.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 15, 2007 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the A's are NOT an awesome team...
they have a terrible offense. They survive on impeccable starting pitching.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 15, 2007 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's what i was talking about
should have said pitching, not team. typing to fast to think and put coherent thoughts down.

as far as wells making $4Mil this season, yes, he is. but does anythink he'll ever make close to that ever again? yes the flubs gave betty $21Mil. but KIPPY's been far worse. that very well could be his last major league contract.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 15, 2007 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ever again?..
do you have any idea how MUCH 4 Million dollars is!?....plus he's has been a pro for how long?...he's made WAY more than 4 million over that time and if invested and handled smartly?...he and possibly, his children, will NEVER have to work again!... Hey I don't think that he's a bad person...I'm sure he's not, but he's most likely pretty set for life right now.. ....so I'm not shedding any tears for him if they cut him lose. He's a young man and even if never pitches again, will have had a very comfortable and rewarded life.

by Timbo02 on Jun 15, 2007 7:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

exactly
can't feel sorry for the guy at all.  I'm sure he's a nice guy, but there's a lot of nice guys out there who can't pitch in the majors too.
Acquire some runs!

by madding on Jun 15, 2007 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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