Game 61 Open Thread: June 12, 2007, 7:10 CDT

STL	KC
eckstein ss	dejesus cf
spiezio dh	grudzielanek 2b
pujols 1b	teahen rf
edmonds cf	sweeney dh
rolen 3b	gordon 1b
encarnacion rf	german 3b
duncan lf	larue c
bennett c	pena ss
kennedy 2b	gathright lf

I can't believe

it, but I'm more nervous about these 6 games with KC than the 3 just played with the Angels and the 3 coming up with Oakland. Weird. Hope it's all for nothing. Go Thompson!!

by rockin redbird on Jun 12, 2007 6:49 PM EDT reply actions

need to get on the board early

c'mon

by azruavatar on Jun 12, 2007 8:19 PM EDT reply actions

Duncan's slump

has lasted much longer than his most recent injury (of course he could have been injured and we didn't know about it.)

Since the May 1 to June 5th, he held a mediocre batting average of 234 (this statistic was listed by Hardcore Legend on June 4 or 5). He also had not been dominant in any category for his last ten games at that time. Among the top nine batters, he ranked 9th in batting average and k's, 8th in hits, 4th in RBI's, 3rd in homers, and was in a 3-way tie for 2nd in runs.

I had commented at the time that I thought Tony should either rest him for possible injury or sit him out for some games so that he could work extra in the batting box. It is ironic the number of protests this suggestion received since TLR did this in our last game.

At that time, a number of posters said that he was our second best hitter and that he should never sit out a game.

Do you feel the same way now (about being our 2nd best hitter and never sitting him). Or have you changed your mind now that he clearly is having batting troubles.

Hopefully he'll hit great tonight!!!

by nycardfan on Jun 12, 2007 8:19 PM EDT reply actions

barring injury

Duncan should not sit more than 1-2 times a month. He's young and this team needs offense (among other things). I know you feel vindicated by his slump but you've offered no proof that his hitting woes are tied to him playing too regularly.

by azruavatar on Jun 12, 2007 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions

I never thought his slump

was due to his playing too regularly. That makes no sense. If he were playing well, I'd want him to play every day. I wanted him to sit because he was in an obvious slump, just as TLR sat out Eckstein at the beginning of the season a number of times so that he could be coached in extra batting practice. Duncan needs something--practice, coaching or recovery from injury. I was surprised that people wanted Duncan to be treated like Pujols. TLR treats no other player that way. When they get into a slump, he pulls them for a game and sends them to the batting box or has them rest.

And of course I don't feel vindicated. I said last week he was in a slump. He's in the same slump. So what is there to feel vindicated about when the numbers are the same as they've been since May 1? I just think it's unreasonble for him to be treated differently than other players and I thought many on this thread were in denial about his current batting troubles.

I guess your continued twisting of my logic means that we can't have a constructive debate about how Duncan plays--it still sounds like he's off-limits as far as you are concerned.

by nycardfan on Jun 12, 2007 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions

ok, ok

great observation re duncan, nycardfan. very insightful.

by lboros on Jun 12, 2007 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm sorry but I can't

tell from your tone if you're being simply ironic or whether you are truly open to critiquing Duncan like any other player? I want to make it clear that I want Duncan to be a great player, I hope he eventually plays like pujols (minus the double plays!). I just think he needs help right now--I'm not sure why some people take that as though I'm not supporting him as a player. I want him to get back on his feet.

by nycardfan on Jun 12, 2007 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions

It's not that anyone thinks you have it out

for Duncan. The initial proposal you made was that Duncan needed to learn consistency and so you would sit him more often to achieve that because he hit better on rest. With an inconclusive sample size the numbers showed that Duncan did hit better immediately after a day off.

What you are suggesting now:
I wanted him to sit because he was in an obvious slump, just as TLR sat out Eckstein at the beginning of the season a number of times so that he could be coached in extra batting practice.
is an attempt to revive that same thread of thought. I disagree with it. Sitting Duncan isn't going to correct mechanical flaws in his swing. Batting practice isn't the same as live action. During Ecksteins slump, let's say when his OBP was below .330 Eckstein sat 4 games and played 28. TLR didn't sit Eckstein.

Duncan is probably playing hurt. If he isn't fully recovered, he should sit. If he just needs work on his timing he's going to need some live game action to get that ironed out. He's our best option in LF bar none.

by azruavatar on Jun 12, 2007 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions

I quoted myself almost verbatim

from my June 5th entry on this site. I did not think people had read that post because it was late in the day so I basically lifted it and put it here since it seemed to follow the discussion of Dunc's injury bringing about a "recent" slump. I used exactly the same numbers, the same rankings, the same arguments. I thought you had misunderstood me on the 4th and were somewhat inflamatory. That's one of the reasons I clarified myself on the 5th backed up with numbers. Sorry you missed that post.

Regardless, your position is at odds with TLR. Last year, according to the mets commentators from our first game, TLR ONLY played Pujols and Eckstein everyday he possibly could. He heavily uses his bench--which I'm sure you know--to keep everybody crisp. What you are suggesting goes against how he manages And he himself said he sat Eckstein in order to work on his batting. Just do a search on Eckstein. And don't tell me I changed my argument when you haven't even read my posts on this issue. I at least did a search to make sure I had not misunderstood you.

by nycardfan on Jun 12, 2007 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm not saying you changed your position

I'm saying you've been wrong all along. Taking a 10 game sample size proves NOTHING of who is the best hitter on the team. You said:

It was flatly asserted (by people I admire) that Dunc is the second best hitter on the team and that he should never sit out a game. But there are two problems with these claims.

Then you attempt to rebuff this by looking at the last 10 games. That doesn't back up your assertion that Duncan isn't the second best hitter. That kind of logic had Pujols as the third best hitter on the team. Looking at a small sample size does not show a players real ability. If you really think that Taguchi is the better hitter than Duncan, then nothing I say is going to convince you that you're wrong because we have completely opposite view points.

TLR is a lot of talk but look at Eckstein's game logs, he was playing all but four games while he sucked fiercely. TLR uses his bench but he doesn't sit players for long or often. How long did Rolen play in 2005 with a hurt shoulder? Mulder last year? Marquis kept pitching despite sucking repeatedly last year. Just because TLR spouts off some BS about sitting veterans he doesn't usually do it (unless one of them gets in his doghouse).

My attempt isn't to be inflammatory, but you make these baseless assertions with no evidence to back it up. Just saying that Duncan hits better because he's rested or that Eckstein was forced to sit when slumping doesn't make it true.

by azruavatar on Jun 12, 2007 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions

The Eckstein story

about sitting out and going to batting practice was a printed story in the p-d or mlb.com site. It was a long story about how he was addressing his slump. It quoted Eckstein at length about how he was trying to get back on top of his game and it may have quoted TLR. That is not a baseless claim. Eckstein himself tells you what he was doing during those 4 games he had off (and 4 games is a lot of sitting for Eckstein!) You can find the story if you wish. The sample size I used on the 5th and then today came from another poster on this site who has been reliable with statistics. I did not look them up because the rest of you take him at his word.

If you had read my entry on June 5th, where I'm looking at a sample size going back to May 1st, perhaps you wouldn't be as angry and insulting as you are now.

by nycardfan on Jun 13, 2007 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions

I'm not angry

about anything. I'm merely meeting what you are saying head on and you haven't done anything but a) say I'm insulting you and b) repeat the same arguments without further evidence.

Do you mean this story. Where it says: "I've had this conversation a thousand times over the years," said manager Tony La Russa. "A guy struggles, and he's working to get right. You give him extra work. You sit him so you avoid some matchups. And one of the most common things to do is just shift the responsibility, just to give him a different look." Tony says you give him extra work and sit him on occassions. That's the only related story in May from mlb.com (the p-d search engine is terrible. . .)

Look, if you're right than just link to the article. Don't accuse me of being angry and insulting when I haven't used profanity or called you any derisive names or anything like that. You accuse me of "read the worst into my motives " but then claim that I'm angry and derisive. . . which seems to be you reading into my motives. You say "first a poster says I've changed my story" even though I said it was "an attempt to revive that same thread of thought". Not different story, same one.

At this point, we're so far gone from the original discussion that Duncan sitting or getting extra rest that I don't even know what to say. Just asking for a little evidence when you (or anyone) make claims.

by azruavatar on Jun 13, 2007 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions

That was not the article

I was referring to. I tried to find it on the p-d site but it seems impossible to get back to April and May stories so I can't link the site. It was one of their feature articles highlighting Eckstein's great work ethic despite his early slump. They interviewed him after extra batting practice and asked him how he and TLR were trying to get him out of his slump. His answer: taking certain games off to get in more batting practice (and I'm assuming to get Miles in there in order to get more hits).

As far as the difference between TLR's treatment of Pujols and the rest of the players in giving them time off: Albert has missed 1 game. Compare this with the others: Edmonds misseed 8 games, Duncan 9 games, Rolen has missed 10 games, Eckstein: 10 games, Yadi 10 games prior to his injury on May 27, and Kennedy: 13 games.

If you go back to May 1st for statistics (to counter your objection that my AB pool was too small for the 10 game period), Duncan still ranks last among both regular and bench players in hits, K's, and is slipping fast into last place in batting average (.233 May, .077 so far in June). I'll try to post the stats for these players on the site later-I've got to go to work now.

Finally, profanity is not my measure of whether discourse is civil or not. I ask whether someone is open to debate or is dismissive? Does a person offer counter-evidence when they say flat-out that another person is wrong or do they just assert it? Perhaps I object to the tone which is difficult to pin down to this or that word--it is the whole manner of the "discussion". I am used to a different kind of arguing, but that may be because I'm a teacher and I'm in academics. In those capacities, perhaps I've gotten used to what I take to be more respectful dialogue (not so rough and tumble). Plus I'm female so maybe there is a gender divide or a geographical divide (I haven't lived in St. Louis for 20 years and have been on the east coast since then, although I've remained a big card fan).

It's not worth going on about. I'm sorry I insulted you by saying that I thought you sounded angry and disrespectful. That's how our exchanges have come across to me. I put my first post up last night in part to give greater information about how long Duncan had been in a slump, and second, because I thought my other posts on this topic had been dismissed without any counter-evidence. I wasn't trying to gloat; I was trying to set some facts out again that I thought had not been considered.

by nycardfan on Jun 13, 2007 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions

nycardfan

yes i am being ironic, and yes i am open to critiquing duncan like any other player. but what you're doing on this thread isn't "critiquing" --- it's gloating. when you ask (quoting from your original post) --- "Do you feel the same way now (about being our 2nd best hitter and never sitting him). Or have you changed your mind now that he clearly is having batting troubles" --- it's no longer an evaluation of duncan. it's just you saying, i was right and all you people who challenged me were wrong.

in my opinion, duncan's hitting slump is better explained by the death of josh hancock (he and duncan were close) and his knee infection. the explanation you posited still leaves me unconvined --- particularly when your supporting evidence consists of such a small number of at-bats.

if you're interested in having a real discussion about these factors, this is a great place for it. it's about all of us sharing information and opinions, and working toward a better understanding of the team and its players. we may have to agree to disagree at times.

but posting "i was right, you were wrong" is not the same as having a discussion. it's not the kind of post i like to see it my board; hence my sarcastic response to it.

by lboros on Jun 12, 2007 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions

I honestly was asking

whether you had changed your mind given recent events, especially knowledge of his injury.

I'm sorry if that came off as gloating and insulted you. It was not my intention at all. I did want to point out that the slump was longer than your posting seemed to suggest, but I knew that you were aware of this. I was pointing it out for others who might not know how long he's been having problems. That information, I thought, was valuable to clarify.

The "gloating" you read into my post was my way of addressing the incivility that I received for having brought up the topic at all. There is a difference between gloating and reminding certain posters that I did have a point and that the anger and derision I recieved for critiquing Duncan's performance was misplaced. I hoped they might in the future be more restrained when someone expressly disagrees with them next time. That original series of exchanges about Duncan surprised me by how furiously he was defended. Perhaps you thought I had more emotion invested in "winning that argument" than I do. I'm mainly interested in discussing what's best for different players--and yes, we disagree about that. I don't see why those disagreements have to be met with redicule or irony or anger. I teach college and none of my students interact with such incivility when they disagree in discussions. It's disappointing to see it enter into disagreements among people who are (I'm assuming) older and more mature.

by nycardfan on Jun 12, 2007 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions

i've just re-read the entire thread

here is the link to it ---

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/story/2007/6/4/95028/94427

can you cite for me the words in that thread which struck you as "incivility," "derision," and "anger"?

i have a low tolerance for incivility on this board, and there are Community Guidelines and the Guideline Enforcement policy in place to ensure that our discussions don't devolve into pissing matches.

i urge you to read the guidelines. if you believe you have been mistreated here, then you should lodge a complaint with the Community Board. if the Board agrees that a violation of our Guidelines has occurred, the offender will be warned to tone it down.

by lboros on Jun 13, 2007 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions

Your "ironic" response tonight

was derisive. That's how irony is used in this kind of exchange--it's dismissive, sophisticatedly rediculing, and undercuts any ability to discuss a topic further. With every response tonight, you and the other poster read the worst into my motives and reacted accordingly. Some of the responses sounded clearly angry and written off the cuff--first a poster says I've changed my story, then when I show that I've spoken of this before, I'm told that he never said I changed my story, although he just the opposite above.

It's almost 1:00 in New York and I don't have time to go back to read the whole thread now. I may try tomorrow although I'm wearying of the whole series of encounters.

But I won't lodge a complaint because your site is what it is and your intimate group enjoy themselves on it. I find it interesting in terms of facts and often funny. I will continue to read it. But I don't care to interact with people who have such short fuses with those who strongly disagree with them and who resort to redicule so easily. That probably doesn't fit your definition of "incivility". But it does mine.

Keep up the good work on the information and stories....

by nycardfan on Jun 13, 2007 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions

i hope you'll take the time

to look back through the june 4 thread and let me know which comments offended you. whether you lodge a complaint with the board is up to you --- purely optional. whether you continue to interact here, or continue to read at all, is also your option.

but insofar as you came onto this site tonight in response to mistreatment that you felt you received in the june 4 thread, i would appreciate knowing specifically what mistreatment you felt compelled to redress. if you don't want to post it here, e-mail it to me --- vivaelbirdos@yahoo.com.

by lboros on Jun 13, 2007 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions

hey lboros

i have no dog in this fight, but i did go back to that post and i have to say i didn't really see anything derogatory either, maybe i am missing what nycardfan sees as someone being snide, but i didn't feel he was being disparaged in any way

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Jun 13, 2007 3:58 AM EDT up reply actions

neither did i

which is why i want this guy to specify who offended him, and how. i don't particularly appreciate somebody coming on here and accusing the community of rudeness, without having any facts to back up the accusation.

by lboros on Jun 13, 2007 8:09 AM EDT up reply actions

I have noticed

That sometimes when the debate gets heated I read more of a tone than is really there. It is impossible to read inflection, and how someone says something can be more important than what is said. When reading it is easy for me he impose my own inflection on someone else. This is wrong but it happens.

That might be what happened here. I don't think the hosts want any posters to feel shy about posting in the future because some one took them on vigorously, but sometimes a poster can get shot down abruptly. I know that first hand.

by nybirdfan on Jun 13, 2007 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions

See my above post

plus you never responded to what I said about your own "ironic" post you wrote last night in response to the stats I put up about Duncan. You thought that was meant as a civil entry that would further discussion? There was nothing dismissive or derisive in that? You did not mean to stop dialogue with that entry?

by nycardfan on Jun 13, 2007 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions

yes, it was dismissive and derisive

and yes it was meant to stop the dialogue. in my opinion, the dialogue that was developing was asinine --- and unfortunately it has only become more so.

here's my advice to you: stop writing so much about who said what to you, and in what tone. that is not what people come to here to read; they come to read about baseball. express your opinions on that subject.

if people disagree with your opinions about baseball, don't take it personally. if you think somebody crosses the line and violates the Community Guidelines in a post directed toward you, file a complaint and the Board will handle it.

and if you feel this venue is inhospitable to you, then stop coming here. i would not continue going back to a venue where i felt people were insulting me. if you think that's how you are being treated here, then just stop posting.

by lboros on Jun 13, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions

So you admit to going against

your own posted community guidelines "not to be mocking" of someone's opinion of a player, etc. just because it strongly differs from your own. You wrote that post at the very beginning (not the end) of the discussion about Duncan's stats (slump) and my explanation that I did not intend my remarks to be gloating, but rather to clarify how long his slump had lasted, and to honestly ask whether anyone had changed their opnions given recent news about Duncan.

Your saying that my initial post about Duncan was assanine does express the dismissive anger and ridicule that you have been vigorously denying. You said earlier that no poster has expressed anger or has been dismissive in their responses. I'm glad that you are being upfront about your own interaction with me very early in the conversation.

My continuing to write was only to answer questions that you and the other poster demanded that I respond to. Kind of a catch 22: if I don't respond, I'd be dodging your questions; if I do respond, then I'm perpetuating an "assanine" conversation.

And why is it assanine to point out Duncan's slump and the fact that this was met with protests? That is a continuation of an earlier conversation about statistical material and whether previous opinions were right or wrong based on ongoing information. It was meant to open not close discussion.

by nycardfan on Jun 13, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions

i'll write you via e-mail, nycbirdfan

nobody cares about this stuff except you.

by lboros on Jun 13, 2007 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree with you

that Dunc's problems ar most probably related to JH's death and his injury and that they are understandable. I don't know what other reason I gave. I just said he was inconsistent and slumping since May 1 and that he needed help. I think he needs certain days off (limited and intermixed with games) to work on whatever is influencing his batting. Since TLR threw Eckstein into extra batting practice and it worked, I suggested that. If he needs to do something else to work it out, he should do that. But I agree with you about the probably cause of the change. We disagree about possible ways to help him get back to his April performance.

by nycardfan on Jun 13, 2007 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions

DH?

Speezie is a DH and Dunc (bad knee and all) is in left. How does that make sense?

by Zubin on Jun 12, 2007 8:24 PM EDT reply actions

somewhere in

TLR land

Kelly Stinnett the new power to the cards lineup.

by punchinjudy on Jun 12, 2007 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions

yeah that's a real head scratcher

especially after that play

Call up Ankiel!!

by jeff abs on Jun 12, 2007 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions

and it ...

bites us in the a**

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jun 12, 2007 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions

NIce hustle by Grudz...

Too bad about ScoRo's error.

by Zubin on Jun 12, 2007 8:27 PM EDT reply actions

won't be scored as an error...

fielders choice, can't assume he'd of made the DP

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 12, 2007 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah you are right

but its still a miscue.

by Zubin on Jun 12, 2007 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Agreed

It was a play he should've made.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 12, 2007 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions

so much for that

Call up Ankiel!!

by jeff abs on Jun 12, 2007 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions

I hate thompson...

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 12, 2007 8:28 PM EDT reply actions

Why?

by DriverZn on Jun 12, 2007 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions

because he's not a good pitcher

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 12, 2007 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Well the stats would disagree with you

2nd best ERA of our current starters.

by DriverZn on Jun 12, 2007 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions

in how many starts?

that's what I thought. Besides, you are implying that any of our other starters are good, which they are not.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 12, 2007 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions

you honestly think that Thompson is

the 2nd best pitcher on the staff???

really?

by azruavatar on Jun 12, 2007 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions

Well he is either 2nd or 3rd.

by Zubin on Jun 12, 2007 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions

I'd put him behind looper and wainwright

and reyes (although I guess he isn't technically on the staff). Wellemeyer has better stuff although he can't seem to translate it into better outings either. Regardless, thompson is not someone I want starting for my team more than 2-3 times a season.

by azruavatar on Jun 12, 2007 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions

um

it's not that far-fetched of a statment.

probably goes: loop - adam - brad - wellemeyer - kip.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 12, 2007 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions

Don't hate the player

hate the manager that would rather have a fringe 5th starter with no upside pitch because he can allegedly get groundballs as opposed to a starter that has front-of-the-rotation upside.

by azruavatar on Jun 12, 2007 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions

in my opinion

Thompson has much more upside than Kippers.

Unless you actually believe the tales of "Kip finding his old self."

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 12, 2007 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions

ummmm

that's what upside is. . . the best potential a player has. Thompson's best potential is a back end starter. Wells best potential is a middle rotation starter. Do I think Wells will get there? No. Do I think Thompson can be an effective 5th starter? No.

by azruavatar on Jun 12, 2007 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions

why.....

because he has a rough game here or there
he's young and hasnt started much over the last few years
hes been better than wainwright and wells, and better than the looper of late
i think the fact that HE was the first and possibly still the only pitcher to pitch into the 8th inning on this staff this year buys him a bad outing here or there
and the defense totally let him down
lets be real here
over the past 30 days brad has 3 wins and an era that was just killed last night that brought his total over that time span to 6.37
looper has 1 win, 7.48 era
wainwright has 1 win, 5.47 era
wells has 1 win, 6.04 era
wellemeyer has 2 wins, a 4.79 era

i dont think you can pick brad out of this pile for being bad....he has the most wins over the last month and take out last nights disaster and he has been fairly decent
his era jumped .90 last night and the cards has won 5 of his 7 starts
he needs time, he can be a number 4 or 5 like suppan

RESIGN JIMMY BALLGAME....HE SHOULD RETIRE A REDBIRD!

by benstl on Jun 13, 2007 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions

I love Dunc

but that was a stoopid play.

by Zubin on Jun 12, 2007 8:28 PM EDT reply actions

I made a catch like that

earlier this season ... i guess he thought he could do it again.

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jun 12, 2007 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Not "I" but "Dunc"

doh!

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jun 12, 2007 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions

I know but

he wasn't even all that close to the ball. He missed it by 2 feet.

by Zubin on Jun 12, 2007 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions

correctamundo.

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jun 12, 2007 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Now that we agree,

I guess it would be inappropriate to tell you to "Sit on it, Bucco."

by Zubin on Jun 12, 2007 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions

heh heh

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jun 12, 2007 8:34 PM EDT reply actions

Absolutely Pathetic

This team is freaking garbage.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 12, 2007 8:34 PM EDT reply actions

Speezie

If Speezie was either at third or left, we just might have escaped this inning.

by Zubin on Jun 12, 2007 8:35 PM EDT reply actions

oh my.

what the heck happened?

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jun 12, 2007 8:35 PM EDT reply actions

Happening

Walk
Botched DP ball to Rolen
Triple on a dumb ass dive by Dunc
HBP
HBP
Another hard luck play to Rolen goes through, and then another

Anyway, something like that.

by Zubin on Jun 12, 2007 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions

Did I miss something?

We got Jeff Weaver back?

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 12, 2007 8:35 PM EDT reply actions

Gold Gloves

I think Scotty's Gold Gloves should be conficated based on this inning!

by Zubin on Jun 12, 2007 8:36 PM EDT reply actions

and he didn't get charged with an error for either

hilarious. the first one i can see not being an error, but that second one!? it was a routine effing grounder.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 12, 2007 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions

tv

guess ill be watching the new episode of deadliest catch at 8

by truemun12 on Jun 12, 2007 8:38 PM EDT reply actions

To add insult to injury

The fuckin' Royals cameraman feilds better thaan us!

by Zubin on Jun 12, 2007 8:42 PM EDT reply actions

Duncan needs to go on the DL....

Seriously. If his knee is still bothering him, shelf him, or make him rehab at AAA

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 12, 2007 8:44 PM EDT reply actions

Agreed, and then lets call up J-Rod.

by Zubin on Jun 12, 2007 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions

What I love

about playing the Royals - the cheers are just as loud as the boos when something goes the Cards' way. Busch Stadium West!

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 8:48 PM EDT reply actions

similar

in Chicago, and it was actually quite like that in the Colorado series (which was interesting).

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 12, 2007 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions

I miss Reyes..

Did he sleep with one of TLR's daughters or something?

by outraged on Jun 12, 2007 8:57 PM EDT reply actions

yea

your right he would save all our problems...brweres getting no hit

Kelly Stinnett the new power to the cards lineup.

by punchinjudy on Jun 12, 2007 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions

never said that

but in all likelihood he'd be doing better that what we're seeing here.

by outraged on Jun 12, 2007 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions

KC color commentator said:

"the Cardinals have completely revamped their rotation."

I guess that's one way of putting it.

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jun 12, 2007 8:58 PM EDT reply actions

This looks to be a lo-o-o-ng game

If the Royals keep scoring in every inning.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 8:59 PM EDT reply actions

Who said they were scared of the Royals games?

They were right. Considering the travesty that was the Royals series against the Rockies (from a Rockies fan's perspective) it wasn't entirely unwarranted.

Sparks of Dementia Still Demented.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Jun 12, 2007 9:01 PM EDT reply actions

good gawd

i'm never picking the Cards to win anything ever again. not with this patch work starting staff. not with Rolen regressing. this is a bad, pathetic way to start a series they should sweep easily.

GET BRAD OUT OF THERE

Jeminez could do better than this. isn't he the long guy now?

The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 12, 2007 9:01 PM EDT reply actions

thompson gave up

on his team tonight, you could tell by his body language

by roscoe on Jun 12, 2007 9:02 PM EDT reply actions

LaRussa's a bum

Intentional walk, down 5-0, with two outs and a runner on 2nd?

I don't care who's batting there, that's just a terrible baseball move, and sends a bad signal to your starter who's been completely sabotaged thus far by his teammates..

LaRussa, the insane button-pusher, the Mad Puppet Master.

Take away Albert Pujols and he's just another longtime has-been manager 15 years removed from his greatest glory.

by salvomania on Jun 12, 2007 9:05 PM EDT reply actions

But Reyes is pitching well in Memphis

thru 4 on 60 pitches, 3h, 3k, 1 hr.

Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Jun 12, 2007 9:09 PM EDT reply actions

going into top of 9th in detroit ...

brew crew still hitless vs. verlander ...

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jun 12, 2007 9:11 PM EDT reply actions

2 outs to go

by azruavatar on Jun 12, 2007 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions

1 out

Graffanino and Counsell both struck out to start the inning.

by azruavatar on Jun 12, 2007 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions

Hardy flies out to

Magglio for the no hitter.

by azruavatar on Jun 12, 2007 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions

now one

matty fred is a web log.

by matty fred on Jun 12, 2007 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions

ballgame. he got the no-no

The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 12, 2007 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions

a saw a cardinal fan in the crowd

by outraged on Jun 12, 2007 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions

this sucks

i don't want Verlander's no-hitter to be over because it requires me to look at the STL score again and see that babyface is still getting shellacked.

by azruavatar on Jun 12, 2007 9:18 PM EDT reply actions

8 runs

I'm going to be sick

I'm calling it a night folks. I can't stomach this. Hope they make a comeback but I just can't watch this massacre.

by azruavatar on Jun 12, 2007 9:19 PM EDT reply actions

yeah, like what are the chances the Cards

come back and win this 15-12? because that's what it's going to take to win.

The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 12, 2007 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions

The deed is done

First Tigers no-hitter since '84, first at home since '52, the announcers said. Amazing! He had 12 strikeouts, too. No sophmore slump for Justin.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 9:19 PM EDT reply actions

7-2, with an ERA under 3.00

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Wow, Verlander was clocked at 101...

during that last AB. He must have been pumped up. Or the gun was juiced.

by jdubya on Jun 12, 2007 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions

So

Any reason Thompson is being left out to dry?

Sparks of Dementia Still Demented.

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Jun 12, 2007 9:23 PM EDT reply actions

I guess Tony's trying to save the bullpen.

by jdubya on Jun 12, 2007 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions

Or..

With reyes pitching tonight in memphis he would be on schedule to take over for thompson in the next start.

by El Hombre on Jun 12, 2007 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions

ya right

Kelly Stinnett the new power to the cards lineup.

by punchinjudy on Jun 12, 2007 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Suppan

is now 7-7. Seattle is up 3-2 over the Cubs, going to the top of the sixth. So, maybe we won't lose any ground in the standings.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 9:28 PM EDT reply actions

let thompson get demolished

maybe it'll convince tony to give reyes another shot

by roscoe on Jun 12, 2007 9:29 PM EDT reply actions

HEY!

Cheer up guys, the Royals didn't get any runs that inning! (#4 on my list of phrases I thought I would NEVER EVER say).

I miss molina. I blame the poor pitching lately on his absence. He sure knows how to call a game...

by Molina4MVP on Jun 12, 2007 9:33 PM EDT reply actions

Finally!

An inning in which the Royals do NOT score.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 9:33 PM EDT reply actions

An inning in which

we DO score would be the next thing on my wish list. I can dream, can't I?

by calico30 on Jun 12, 2007 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions

night fellas

I can't watch us get destroyed by the worst team in the AL...

by Zubin on Jun 12, 2007 9:35 PM EDT reply actions

I like Thompon but he needs to be pulled

I also like Reyes. The nice thing with him is even on a bad day he can usually make it through 5ip with the damage within reason.

by DriverZn on Jun 12, 2007 9:38 PM EDT reply actions

you know who

Reyes' line: 6 ip, 4h, 1bb, 1er (hr), 4k.

by Molina4MVP on Jun 12, 2007 9:39 PM EDT reply actions

AR must be cursed somehow

If anyone out there does fantasy, make sure that, when he gets called back up, you always start the opposing PITCHER whenever Reyes starts. They always seem to shut down the Cards, or something else crazy happens for the team to lose. He went out of his last AAA start with an 8-2 lead, and the pen proceeded to give up 9 runs to lose 11-8.

by CardFaninVA on Jun 12, 2007 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions

AP

grounds into a DP after a 10 pitch at-bat. Could this game get any better? (Note sarcasm)

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 9:43 PM EDT reply actions

Verlander must have come out of the womb

flailing his right arm. I was glad that they cut to the end of Detroit game--he had to get J J Hardy out for the last out, and it was magnificent! I thought I read somewhere he has a brother that's eight years younger--can we sign HIM?

by jillsinmo on Jun 12, 2007 9:51 PM EDT reply actions

no,

the Cards brass does not feel it's in the best interest of the club to pay pitchers right out of school.

besides, if he does not pitch to contact, he'd never make it past memphis.

The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 12, 2007 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions

He hit 102 MPH

On the last batter of the game? Insanity, the fact that we beat him twice last world series, is crazy.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Jun 12, 2007 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions

so

did everyone give up on the game?

by Molina4MVP on Jun 12, 2007 10:12 PM EDT reply actions

Still holding out some hope..

it is the Royals you know ;)

by outraged on Jun 12, 2007 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm with ya

and I think it's just you and me.
Somehow the mariners got 1000 comments on their game thread at lookout landing, how crazy is that?

by Molina4MVP on Jun 12, 2007 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions

hanging in there

Just wish the team was.

"It ain't bragging if you can do it!" -- Dizzy Dean

by faninexile on Jun 12, 2007 10:17 PM EDT reply actions

stupid little bears....

the cubs just tied it up in the bot. of the 8th.

by Molina4MVP on Jun 12, 2007 10:18 PM EDT reply actions

Ditto

Stupid little bears!

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions

Cavasos looks pretty good in relief

He will be starting by the weekend

by tdawg on Jun 12, 2007 10:20 PM EDT reply actions

Too quick!

I made my joke about 30 seconds too late. Nicely done.

The Falcoholic
The SBNation's Atlanta Falcons Blog

by Dave Choate on Jun 12, 2007 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions

I wonder if there's any chance

that when Percival gets called up, Cavazos stays and they send out Kelvin Jiminez, who's been pretty awful.

by CardFaninVA on Jun 12, 2007 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Bright spot

At least Cavazos has looked pretty good tonight. Think he'll get a rotation promation, er, promotion?

The Falcoholic
The SBNation's Atlanta Falcons Blog

by Dave Choate on Jun 12, 2007 10:21 PM EDT reply actions

i think

we shoulda started a big brawl and cleard the bench for that HBP. You know, just to get some life in the game.

by Molina4MVP on Jun 12, 2007 10:21 PM EDT reply actions

Why not?

It's kinda boring for Cards fans right now. Bannister is struggling a little, we need to strike now. Go, Albert!

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions

I see

that Albert, king of pop-ups, is back. No!! Albert, HR king, come back!

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions

A brawl would be AWESOME

Show some g&#$%^% FIRE!

by AtlantaCard on Jun 12, 2007 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Just got home

yikes.

Larry Walker for hitting coach!

by effin fisk on Jun 12, 2007 10:23 PM EDT reply actions

it got U G L Y fast

and Albert once again tries too much. the effin Royals. this team is just sad. No defending champ should look and play like this.

The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 12, 2007 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Too true

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions

Cavazos

Pitching 93/94 with decent movement and location - something worth watching at least...

by Lawless on Jun 12, 2007 10:26 PM EDT reply actions

By the way...

Is anyone else at the point that you are spending significantly more time looking at the MiLB box scores than the big league club. Tell me last year that our rotation would include Thompson, Looper, Wells, and Wellemeyer and I would have said... Memphis?

Just don't have any bullets in our guns...

by Lawless on Jun 12, 2007 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions

Nice job by Cavazos so far

2.2 innings, 1 hit, no runs, no walks, 5 strikeouts.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions

I really think

That we should start working towards next year. I guess we are kind of, checking to see what Thompson can do. He got screwed in the first inning by Rolen. SCREWED. But that's what's gone on with this team this year.

When they pitch, they can't hit. When they hit, they can't pitch. No matter how much the effing ROYALS are scoring, they are still SHUTTING US OUT. Stranding runners, can't get runners home from third, can't manufacture runs, can't beat a good team and struggle against everybody. It's been this way for four straight months now, save for one GLORIOUS October that we will always love them for. But it's time for a change, plain and simple. Jock makes some shrewd moves this summer and we could be back to powerhouse level (04-05) next year. This team is flawed and needs a jump start.

by AtlantaCard on Jun 12, 2007 10:28 PM EDT reply actions

Great Game

in memphis. this Reyes guy goes 8 only giving up one run. then they bring in this genious named falkenborg that strikes out the side in the 9th!
where did they find these guys?

Fan for Life. Go Cards.

by Birds on the Bat on Jun 12, 2007 10:29 PM EDT reply actions

um

I think memphis called them up from St. Louis.

by Molina4MVP on Jun 12, 2007 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions

pass the cavazio!

5 Ks. Brilliant.

Larry Walker for hitting coach!

by effin fisk on Jun 12, 2007 10:32 PM EDT reply actions

FYI

Cubs tied it up and had bases loaded 0 outs, then they grounded into a force out at home and had 2 strikeouts in a row. game still tied.
stupid little bears...

by Molina4MVP on Jun 12, 2007 10:34 PM EDT reply actions

Stupid little bears!

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions

Cavazos got 8 outs easy today,

I bet he could start in 5 days.

by CardFaninVA on Jun 12, 2007 10:38 PM EDT reply actions

Safe notwithstanding

that was a helluvan effort by kennedy.

by Molina4MVP on Jun 12, 2007 10:46 PM EDT reply actions

Agreed

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Not a neat and tidy inning

for Jimenez. The two singles after the SO had me worried. But getting the DP saved it from turning ugly in that inning.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 10:51 PM EDT reply actions

COME ON BIRDS!

break up the shutout at least!
or bring back some of that magic from Cincinnatti a few years ago.

by Molina4MVP on Jun 12, 2007 10:51 PM EDT reply actions

NICE

That makes it better.

by Molina4MVP on Jun 12, 2007 10:52 PM EDT reply actions

thank goodness Ludwick

thank goodness

by azruavatar on Jun 12, 2007 10:53 PM EDT reply actions

Nice job, Ludwick!

No more shut-out, that was a monster shot!

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 10:53 PM EDT reply actions

I would really like to see what he could do

if they'd play him more. He was putting up monster numbers in Memphis. I just think he could maybe be a real player. J-Rod's numbers don't even hold a candle to Lud's.

by DJ4508 on Jun 12, 2007 10:56 PM EDT reply actions

yea

maybe we could DL or rest Dunc for a while until his knee is settled and let lil' ludwick play for a while. for fun.

by Molina4MVP on Jun 12, 2007 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions

Couldn't hurt

We could probably call up half of Memphis and keep Pujols, Jed, and Scotty here and play with some heart. That's what's killing us when they walk out with thier heads down already.

by DJ4508 on Jun 12, 2007 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions

at least

we're not going softly into the night.

by Molina4MVP on Jun 12, 2007 10:58 PM EDT reply actions

Hear, hear!

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions

welp

here's hoping the cubs lose so we stay even.

by Molina4MVP on Jun 12, 2007 11:04 PM EDT reply actions

Yes indeed

About the only interesting thing that happened was how well Cavazos pitched. I am glad to see that Eck is hitting over .300, but Baby Dunc' needs to get straightened out. Maybe he should rest or DH the next two games.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 11:09 PM EDT reply actions

Here's something to look forward to:

Jeff Weaver faces Jason Marquis in Thursday afternoon's M's/Cubs game.

by BTown Birds fan on Jun 12, 2007 11:15 PM EDT reply actions

Actually

I am looking forward to that, it could get interesting. I wondered if this could happen when I saw that Weaver was going to start against the Cubs.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 12, 2007 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions

My hope is that after Weaver gives up 4 runs in

the bottom of the first inning, his first career HR is a grand slam off Marquis in the second. Then Pujols hits back-to-back grand slams off Marquis, even though he's not in the game and that's not actually possible. Then Marquis' head explodes. Then Zambrano punches Marquis. Then he punches Weaver. Then Piniella punches Zambrano and gets ejected and decides to take a crap on an umpire's hat and gets suspended for 12 years. Then John Lennon and George Harrison rise from the dead on the spot (as normal people though - not in zombie form) and the Beatles reunite and perform of medley of "I Want To Hold Your Hand," "When I'm 64," "And I Love Her," and "In My Life," and my fiancee totally thinks I arranged it for her even though I don't actually have the power to bring the dead back to life and if I did I'd resurrect Buddy Holly and Johnny Cash instead of John Lennon and George Harrison.

I haven't given it much thought though.

by BTown Birds fan on Jun 12, 2007 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Ha! While I was writing that crap Seattle scored

twice in the top of the 13th to take a 5-3 lead! They still have the bases loaded with two outs and Jose Guillen up. Go M's!

by BTown Birds fan on Jun 13, 2007 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions

how bout buddy holly and john lennon

and they play 'rave on'

satis superque

by ortic jones on Jun 13, 2007 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions

I laughed out loud

What a world you have created! I would like to see something bizarre occur though, just for the fun of it all.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 13, 2007 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions

Thanks... I was just blowing off some silly steam

from working too late tonight... and from the fact that my fiancee recently moved back to St. Louis while I'm still here in Indiana - and she doesn't even obsess about the Cardinals! The injustice of it all! If only Zombie Lennon were here to set her straight....

by BTown Birds fan on Jun 13, 2007 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions

man, that would be a cool zombie.

satis superque

by ortic jones on Jun 13, 2007 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions

No doubt...

His super-cool zombie glasses would define zombie fashion for years....

by BTown Birds fan on Jun 13, 2007 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions

Someone needs to set her straight

I would volunteer, but I don't live in StL either. But I do obsess about the Cardinals.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 13, 2007 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions

Shame on the Cardinals

I was at the Pirates/Rangers game and following the Cards on my phone. That has to be one of the most pathetic displays I've seen/read in a long time.

I don't care how hot they are, George Brett retired and they traded Carlos Beltran. They are the flipping Royals for God's sake.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 12, 2007 11:52 PM EDT reply actions

Don't know if you'll catch this

but I think you were looking for old video. I ran across this. Not great, but he is an ex-Cardinal:
http://108mag.typepad.com/the_southpaw/2007/06/the_phillies_10.html

by stltxfan on Jun 13, 2007 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions

Yes!

Cubs lose in the 13th! We stay even in the standings.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 13, 2007 12:15 AM EDT reply actions

That's of little comfort to me....

I think every team in the Central Division lost tonight.......

by jillsinmo on Jun 13, 2007 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions

Nope

Stros won.. even though they decided to stink last night vs. the nubbies.

by cloistermaximus on Jun 13, 2007 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions

Not so fast

Houston, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati all won. That's half the division, so the Central played .500 tonight.

by cardsgirl95 on Jun 13, 2007 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions

Ah well...

Time to take a deep breath or coupla shots of Jager, get a good night's sleep, and hope to hell they can shake this off and play some freakin baseball tomorrow night. Our guys handed them that one on a silver platter from the first inning. Hopefully Wagonmaker will hold his own against Perez--Birds seem to have his number. And there are still 5 more games against KC--plenty of time to hand them a stomping.

Or get stomped.

Ug.

by rockin redbird on Jun 13, 2007 12:48 AM EDT reply actions

this makes me laugh

"I can't remember the last time I've been this frustrated," he said. "I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it, pretty much"

that was Brad Thompson after the game tonight. at least he's as pissed off as us fans are. I like to hear that from the kid. he deserved better tonight. that 1st wasn't all his fault. Rolen should get a L too.

The 2007 St.Louis Cardinals. Not Your Father's 04-05 Cardinals. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Jun 13, 2007 1:45 AM EDT reply actions

Brilliant

One of the better quotes of the year. haha

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 13, 2007 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions

Yeah

I'm sure Tony ASPCA Larussa was THRILLED to hear that.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 13, 2007 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions

Kick a puppy.......

uh-oh. Tony's going to call the ASPCA on you......

by jillsinmo on Jun 13, 2007 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions

Right now

I can't explain how happy I am that we're in the NL central.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Jun 13, 2007 1:56 AM EDT reply actions

Actually, the NL Central is a joke.

The home of really bad baseball!

by jillsinmo on Jun 13, 2007 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions

I obviously erred

in my assessment of the mighty Royals offense earlier this week. The 17-spot against Philadelphia was not an aberration. This run-scoring juggernaut cannot be stopped. The Cardinals' only hope is to out-slug them.

(Hoping the baseball gods are listening . . . )

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Jun 13, 2007 10:33 AM EDT reply actions

Larry, can you bump up the Carpenter

Diary so that we can keep tabs on him.

Looks like he'll be throwing off the mound on Friday. I don't know what that does for his timetable, but I'm guessing the 3 week schedule is being pushed up by each day.

Interested in pre-1990 Cardinals games on tape

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 13, 2007 11:26 AM EDT reply actions

Wednesdays always crack me up

You never know then the new post is going to come up!

by sdrone on Jun 13, 2007 11:35 AM EDT reply actions

Start worrying at 11:00

Val teaches class until 10:00 AM and needs a little time to write his post. Plus he's not as efficient as Larry, due to his unexplainable fetish with capitalization.


thompson	bannister
4-1, 4.56	2-3, 3.33

Network Bar

Viva El Birdos -

Game 61 Open Thread: June 12, 2007, 7:10 CDT

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