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little pop of horrors

i have been looking at fangraphs' batted-ball data for the cardinal hitters, and one thing really jumps out: popups. the guys in the middle of the order are all getting under the ball. very quickly, here are the cardinal players' career popup rates --- ie, the percentage of their flyballs that stay on the infield --- vs their popup rates for 2007:

2007 career ratio
rolen 25.8 12.0 2.15
edmonds 11.1 5.4 2.11
pujols 19.4 15.1 1.28

just to clarify here: rolen's ratio of 2.15 to 1 means he's popping it up this year 2.15 times as often as he has over the course of his career. another way of stating it would be to say that his popup rate has increased by 115 percent . . . . . i should also disclaim that "career" is misleading, because fangraphs' batted-ball stats only go back through the 2002 season.

what could explain such dramatic increases? the immediate suspicion would be health: rolen and edmonds are both 30somethings with surgically repaired shoulders, and pujols is less than a year removed from a strained oblique that still may be bothering him a little bit. it's worth noting that david eckstein --- who missed 6 weeks with a strained oblique last year and aggravated the injury at the beginning of spring training, missing about 10 games --- also has caught the popup disease: 23.5 percent of his flyballs are staying on the infield this year, vs a career rate of 12.3 percent.

but not so fast: rolen's shoulder was so badly hurt in 2005 that he was crying out in pain when he swung, yet his popup rate actually went dramatically down that year, to 8.5 percent (the lowest percentage of his career). and last year, coming off surgery, he popped it up at his normal rate (11.9 pct, vs a career mark of 12.0 pct). maybe the shoulder is weakening over time, but can it really be that much weaker than it was in 2005? i dunno if it adds up.

an alternative explanation --- more likely, in my opinion --- is that rolen has been anxious and undisciplined at the plate this year, swinging at pitches he shouldn't. for one thing, his walk rate is appalling --- he's only got 4 unintentional walks all season, or 1 per 22 plate appearances; he's walking half as often his career rate (full career now, not just back to 2002) of one unintentional pass per 10.5 plate appearances. he's seeing only 3.38 pitches per plate appearance this year, as opposed to 4.01 p/pa from 2002 through 2006. furthermore, it's not just rolen's popup rate that's out of whack --- all his batted-ball rates are skewed:

LD GB OFFB IFFB
2007 15.7 40.0 32.9 11.4
2002-07 21.8 33.3 39.5 5.4

he's not hitting it square --- the results that suggest the best wood on the ball, line drives and outfield flyballs, are both way down. he's popping it up and beating it into the ground. you put these two together --- the lack of walks and the poor ball striking --- and the strong suspicion is that he's expanding his strike zone, chasing stuff he shouldn't. i crunched some numbers real quick-like and found ---- these results are just a bit ragged, but i'll vouch for their general accuracy --- that rolen is indeed swinging at more pitches this year than last:

total
pitches
strikes swings swings/
pitches
swings/
strikes
2006 2320 1419 1042 44.9 73.4
2007 297 193 150 50.5 77.7

it's not a huge disparity --- he's swinging 5 percent more often. but that's roughly 1 swing a game --- once a game that he chases a ball outside the zone and screws up an at-bat, or gets himself out on a pitcher's pitch instead of waiting for a mistake. i think 1 ill-advised swing per 20 pitches might very well explain most, if not all, of the anomalies in rolen's batted-ball data this season --- and, by extension, most if not all of the difference between an all-star and a washed-up player.

it's also possible that pitchers are simply attacking rolen more aggressively, pitching him less carefully because they no longer fear him; if he's seeing more pitches over the heart of the plate, that would explain why he's swinging more often. but i think it's a plate-discipline problem. i'm thinking back to his at-bat vs ryan dempster last friday night, which i described here: he chased a slider out of the strike zone on 0-1 --- a pitch that, at best, he would have beat into the ground --- and got himself into an 0-2 hole, which then forced him to defend the plate and chase a high fastball (also out of the zone), which he popped out on. if rolen takes that 0-1 slider and gets even in the count, it's a different at-bat --- maybe a different result. maybe that swing was the proverbial 1 in 20 --- the ill-advised hack that keeps screwing him up.

if it's a matter of plate discipline, rather than health, it can be corrected; let's hope that's the case.

re edmonds, i do think it's the shoulder. it really began bothering him in 2005, and his popup rate that year took a permanent spike. jed almost never popped up before that year --- his popup rates were in the 3 to 4 percent range. if he missed a pitch, he missed by a lot; he swung right through it. but in 2005 his rate jumped to 9.2 percent and was still elevated (compared to his previous standard) last year at 6.2 percent. and this year he's popping up 11+ percent of his flyballs . . . . whether due specifically to the shoulder or more generally to aging, that's a permanent change.

another nail in the old boy's coffin . . . .

Update [2007-5-4 10:39:23 by lboros]: a further thought about rolen, which comes courtesy of ryan van bibber of Cardinals Diaspora. ryan writes: "Have you noticed that he's not hitting lefties at all since the shoulder injury? Since the infamous collision on May 10, 2005, Rolen's .245/.324/.410 versus LHP. Before that, he was .295/.436/.546 versus LHP. That, combined with Edmonds' loss of his ability to hit LHP after the 2005 season, is a big reason the Cards are sunk against even the most mediocre of lefties."

so far this season, rolen is 1 for 13 against lhp . . . .

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Isn't this
Something McRae should be working on, especially with Rolen?  Seems that plate discipline would fall under his leadership.

by Cardinal70 on May 4, 2007 9:17 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Pop-ups
It seemed to me that they were all hitting into a lot of pop-ups, more than normal.  Thanks for putting up the numbers to illustrate that this was a correct assumption.  Albert has improved his plate discipline lately (i.e., not swinging at so many pitches outside of the zone)and it shows. AP had 3 of the 5 hits on Wed. Hopefully Scotty can follow suit soon.  

by cardsgirl95 on May 4, 2007 9:32 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree about Edmonds
I think it's his shoulder as well.  Beginning last year, he lost most of his power going to the opposite field.  

Remember his injury is in his right shoulder - the same "lead" shoulder that gave Rolen fits at the plate the last 2 years.  The problem and difference there is that Jimmy's shoulder has chronic issues - impingement, arthritis, likely rotator cuff weakness- that can only get so much better.  He is likely playing through this injury because he has to.  It won't get much better.

Jimmy pulls everything now - his front shoulder flies open - and he doesn't have any power when he does this.  His HR at Wrigley sure benefitted from the wind, but he also kept his lead shoulder in and popped it the other way.  If we start to see him do that with any regularity, his number will improve.

by silent_bob on May 4, 2007 9:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It's ironic
that Rolen seemed to be swinging it so well in spring training that he got away from his normal ST plan.  His normal plan is to see a lot of pitches, even to the point where he might repeatedly take strike 3 just so he gets accustomed to seeing pitches and differentiating balls from strikes.  This spring, he changed that approach and began swinging earlier b/c he felt so confident with his shoulder.  Now he's seeing fewer pitches.  Is there a connection?

As for Jimmy, I really think it is his shoulder.  I can't say that I've ever seen a player take so many 1 handed swings at pitches.  Has anyone ever seen anyone whose back hand flies off the bat so frequently when he swings.  Even when he manages to dump a single into left center, it's often a swing produced largely with his right hand.

by chuckb on May 4, 2007 9:39 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He always did this...
and it's his right shoulder that's ailing.  He still has a cannon for an arm.

by silent_bob on May 4, 2007 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think he does
Granted, I don't see the Cards a lot on TV.  But I do catch all the Cubs/Cards game.  I haven't seen Edmonds unload on a throw in over a year.   Twice I'm very sure I've seen him let runners advance when he'd normally at least ATTEMPT to throw them out.

I guess you could say he has a cannon but his shoulder doesn't let him use it....

by sdrone on May 4, 2007 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Last year he was fine throwing
I haven't seen him throw a guy out yet this year - but he hasn't been in position to.

Someone tell me I'm wrong here.  It's his RIGHT SHOULDER that has had work.  His left shoulder, his throwing shoulder, is fine.

by silent_bob on May 4, 2007 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's the LEFT shoulder
That was wrecked by Alex Cantrun in 2002 and Hee So Clumsy in 2005 (receiving a throw from Lisa Guerrero's boyfriend).
youneverknow

by meat on May 4, 2007 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is getting really confusing
some of you guys are talking about edmonds, and others are talking about rolen . . . .

i'm 100 percent certain that edmonds' bad shoulder is the right (ie, non throwing) shoulder --- it's his lead shoulder, and that explains why he can't turn on the ball and yank it over the right-field wall anymore.

with rolen, i don't know which shoulder it is --- and since he's had two collisions (in 2002 and 2005), maybe both shoulders are bad.

by lboros on May 4, 2007 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

who's on first?
ha... sorry couldn't resist...

In Rolen's case, it is also his lead shoulder (i.e. the Left shoulder) that was injured in 2005.

by SmashedAtoms on May 4, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We had this discussion last year
His bad shoulder is his right shoulder.  

However, IIRC, his left shoulder was sore last year as well; I swear I remember it was bothering him when he was in Chicago playing the Cubs  And, granted I have zero stats, I still think it's obvious he doesn't throw like he used to.  

by sdrone on May 4, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: stats on JEd's shoulder
I don't have time to look it up this morning, but I think the number of triples we have given up this year may be an indication of his inability to catch runners advancing.  One of the triples in either CHI or MIL, for sure, came as a result of it, because Jimmy had the ball before the runner touched second and he still didn't even try to throw him out.  Can't remember which game it was but it left me fuming...
Free Ryan Ludwick!!!

by SleepyCA on May 4, 2007 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know exactly what play you're talking about
I jumped off the couch cursing.  Heh.

by sdrone on May 4, 2007 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the triples are more of an indication of
Jimmy's foot issues in addition to the poor corner OF play we get.  I think Duncan has been better than any of us could've expected, but I do think he is vulnerable to the gappers - he doesn't always take the best line to cut them off.  And Jimmy has to be "the man" on both sides of the OF.  

by silent_bob on May 4, 2007 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, ok, but..
...that's why he's a center fielder.

by sdrone on May 4, 2007 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

found a link
"A shoulder injury limited Rolen to just 56 games in 2005. He underwent surgery to his left shoulder on May 13, after a collision at first base with LA's Hee Seop Choi... He underwent season-ending surgery to repair labrum in the shoulder on July 25."

http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=321&p=8&c=1&nid=2348031

by SmashedAtoms on May 4, 2007 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

JimmE
Had shoulder surgery in Dec'03 on is left shoulder. He has been constantly banged up. We all hoped he would stay healthy, but I think we all worried that his is done. It is a shame. I hope and pray that he can get it together. I have my doubts, but follow this link and see all the injuries. Not just the surgeries. Knees, back, legs, etc

http://www.rototimes.com/mlb/player/357/notes/2003

by nybirdfan on May 4, 2007 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uh - all those reports say RIGHT SHOULDER
Jimmy's right shoulder is his bad shoulder.  He may have had some work done on the left - but not this past surgery.

by silent_bob on May 4, 2007 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right
I was just trying to point out that both his shoulders have been a problem for him over ths years.  As we as every other part of his body!

by nybirdfan on May 4, 2007 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

roto times
March 15, 2004
Jim Edmonds hopes to make his spring debut on Wednesday, according to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. He's still rehabbing from December surgery on his left (throwing) shoulder.

by nybirdfan on May 4, 2007 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ew
He has been banged up a lot, 'cause he plays so hard, so I can't really blame him.

This would have been awful though, from your posted link --

November 12, 2003
The Cardinals are reportedly peddling Jim Edmonds at this week's GM meetings in Arizona. The St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports that one scenario has Edmonds going to the Dodgers in a deal that could include Odalis Perez and Guillermo Mota.

by sgfcards on May 4, 2007 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

any thoughts
on my theory about Rolen not doing his usual spring training where he sees as many pitches as possible?  And now he's not taking pitches at all?

by chuckb on May 4, 2007 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

good observation
i hadn't thought about it, but maybe there's something to it; the habits have certainly changed, so maybe you can trace it back to a change of habit during spring training.

there's got to be some explanation for his sudden loss of patience at the plate; maybe this is it.

by lboros on May 4, 2007 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

McRae - Bring back the alcoholic!
Ok, maybe in light of events, that wouldn't be so good, but man, they had better luck when Mitchell Paige (sp?) was there in '04.

Of course, they are older and less talented now, and I think Mitchell is with the Nats, who aren't exactly known for being sluggers... hmm... maybe not such a good idea.

But seriously, McRae can't take at bats for them, but is he doing anything to work on this undisciplined behavior at the plate??

by sgfcards on May 4, 2007 9:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I've been kinda wondering
if Page feels any hypocrisy or at least some bitter irony in relation to the recent problems with alcohol in the Cardinal organization.  After all, they let him go for it.

by RedbirdRay on May 4, 2007 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Waiting....
I'm all for a change of batting instruction, if for no other reason to send a message to this team. But ultimately it's on the players, especially a team of veterans that should know how to take care of their problems. My anecdotal impression is that most of these guys are pressing, chasing bad pitches and putting themselves in disadvantaged situations. Eventually the pressure will build to the point to where the dam will break, and this will hit. But how much more must we endure?

by Hungry Jack on May 4, 2007 10:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Just part of the Problem
Most of the batters just don't seem to have a plan. The number of times they swing at the ball low and outside. then swing at the next pitch, also a ball, and they are in the hole 0-2, like you said...and just about time you think "great here we go a swing at the first pitch, they take two right down the middle to be in the hole 0-2.

I might add that Duncan doesn't seem to have the same approach as the others. I don't know if he's ignoring McCray and going with what Mac told him this off season...but he looks like he makes a point of not swinging at the pitch low and outside. I'm not saying he's channeling Barry Bonds, but he's ahead of the rest.

I really think a change of the hitting coach is in order. I played softball with Gary Ward, so I know he isn't doing anything.

(I might add for an old man he hits the ball hard...for anyone he hits the ball hard.)

by Harknights on May 4, 2007 10:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Isn't it possible
that McRae has him doing this specifically because it was his biggest weakness last year?

by sdrone on May 4, 2007 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I supported
and still support the resigning of Edmonds. I want him to retire as a Cardinal.

The issue is that the Cards have never changed the lineup to reflect that Edmonds is a diminished player and this is a change that must happen. Edmonds hitting in the 6 or 7 hole is fine. Edmonds hitting 2nd or 5th or 4th is not.

Now the question before the Cardinals is clear:
Where do they look to add the thrid major offensive bat for their lineup. If Edmonds hitting well is the differnce between a playoff team and a sub-.500 club as Larry has suguested recently (and btw I agree with this logic. Edmonds at his best was the 2nd best hitter on the team behind Albert), then the Cards must find a way between now and 2008 to add a major offensive player to the mix.

Duncan will help; it is always good for an organization to produce someone like Duncan (a young Bernitz in my view) to add power, but Duncan is not the answer to the loss of Edmonds. No matter how you arange these deck chairs, the teams offense is still sinking.

by JMedwick on May 4, 2007 10:19 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

There isn't an answer for the loss of Edmonds
Gold glove centerfeilders who put up OPS+ over 150 come once in a lifetime.

The real problem (and the real answer) of course is player development.  If the Cardinals had something better than scrubs in the pipelinewe wouldn't be giving up outs at 4 other positions and J'Ed's decline wouldn't be such a big deal.  We'd all be talking about how he just needs more time and he deserves to "retire a Cardinal."

by Zubin on May 4, 2007 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good point -
I certainly am not a authority on our farm system, and I'm just shooting from the hip here to stimulate social intercourse, but ... how does our farm talent stack up? It doesn't seem like there are a queue of can't miss prospects ready to take the place of our brittle underachievers, judging by the number of times the name "John Rodriguez" is invoked here.

by Urban Pawnee on May 4, 2007 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Certianly true
that GG center fielders with that type of hitting skills are rare, but no one has commented so far that Edmonds can't hack it defensivley, only offensivley. Oddly enough, I think we could find that level of offensive talent either through trade or free agency. Andrew Jones is coming up this offseason. The O's are looking to move Tejada. I think we can find a top flight offensive player to slot in at SS, 2nd, or the OF to fill Edmonds #5 spot. I mean honestly, wouldn't the Card be better off if the lineup were:

Eck
Duncan
Pujols
Rolen
Soriano/ Tejada/ Jones/ Carlos Lee
Edmonds
Kenedy
Molina

I think the issue is filling the offensive shoes, not so much the defensive ones at this point.

by JMedwick on May 4, 2007 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who would we give up?
I doubt the Cubs will trade Soriano.  Ditto for the Astros and Lee.  

That leaves A. Jones (I don't think we have anything the Braves would covet) and Tejada.  Now, the O's could use some pitching help.  But who are you going to trade to land Miguel?

Reyes, Wainwright - I doubt WJ would let them go.
Falkenbourg, Narveson - maybe they'd be interested.  

I agree that the issue is offense, not defense.  Chances are, though, many teams we'd potentially trade with would want Duncan to be included... which would negate the whole thing, IMO.  

by SmashedAtoms on May 4, 2007 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rolen Power Outage
Great data - it seems clear that Rolen is expanding the strike zone and getting himself out.  But you write about the anomalies in Rolen's 2007 data, and I think it's clear that Rolen's power numbers have been significantly different since the shoulder injury.

Since returning from the torn labrum, Rolens AB/HR ratio has jumped from 19.8 to 25.  Not only is his post-injury AB/HR out-pacing his career ratio, it's significantly higher than any single season of his career.  At the same time, his AB/double rate has dropped from a career avg. of 14.8 to a post-injury rate of 11.8.  He was only one double shy of his highest season total ever last year, despite somewhat fewer at bats.

This dovetails with my own anecdotal observations.  A guy who used to have legitimate power is leaving more balls on the warning track.  That amazing Endy Chavez catch wasn't the only time last year I saw Rolen look like (and clearly think) he got all of a pitch only to see it die on the track.

And if balls that once left the yard are becoming doubles or fly-outs, it would seem logical that outfield flies are becoming infield flies ... and so on.  I just wonder if this doesn't factor into the batted ball data.  While Will Carroll calls a torn labrum "baseball's most fearsome injury," he says hitters are generally able to return to their previous level.  So maybe I'm pointing to a false cause.  But the power numbers seem to break pretty sharply after the injury.

I hope Rolen's anemic start is solely the result of swinging at bad pitches, because that can be fixed. But I worry that it is also the result of a substantial decline in his physical abilities, and we are left with a corner infielder and "core guy" who at-best is a gap hitter with a decent average.

by bgodar on May 4, 2007 10:35 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Rolen
doesn't need to hit home runs. All he needs to do is bang the ball off the wall. If he can get is BA up approaching .300 with gap power Albert will see better pitches. Scott is the key to this offense. It seams to me that he likes it hot. So, when the temps heat up so will he.

 He has a lot of physical problems like JimmE. He has a bad neck that flares up, and he suffers from back spasms too. We all know about his left shoulder, but he has had knee, and other leg problems. The one thing about Scott is he doesn't complain. So if he is suffering a minor injury he won't say anything about it. I hope he is not hiding an injury. Here is a link to all of Scotty's sore spots.

http://www.rototimes.com/mlb/player/1404/notes/2003

by nybirdfan on May 4, 2007 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To simply be a complementary player...
... I agree, Rolen doesn't need to hit home runs.  But Tony made clear in his "core guys" comments earlier in the season that they're still counting on Scott Rolen for much more than that.  The numbers seem to clearly show that he has lost ability when it comes to hitting for power.  

I think Rolen will remain a valuable part of this team for years to come.  But how can you build around a "core" of players with diminishing skills?  I hope you're right and he hits better in warmer weather, but no matter how warm it gets I think it's clear he won't be the same hitter he was before the shoulder injury.

by bgodar on May 5, 2007 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

New batting coach
It's certainly not fair to place all the blame on McRae's shoulders - the players obviously have to execute better for things to turn.  That being said, it's bad enough that something does need to be tried to get it going in a different direction.  As lboros analysis shows, the approach at the plate is really hurting us.  If the right guy is out there, some new ideas from the batting might shift the momentum toward the positive.  Any thoughts on who might be good candidates for a new batting coach?  How about Larry Walker?

by wildman on May 4, 2007 10:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Batting coach
I like the idea of Larry Walker.  Also could help w/ coaching the outfield (not that we need any help there [lol])

by cardsgirl95 on May 4, 2007 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also could help with...
...playing the outfield.

by birdjam on May 4, 2007 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Walker for coach
I think Larry would make an excellent coach.  When he was on the team they said he added to a positive, clubhouse air.

Either that, or Deidre Pujols can text message each of the Cardinal hitters to tell them what they are doing wrong.

There needs to be some kind of change...

by sgfcards on May 4, 2007 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Deidre for batting coach
Good one! She is the only one who can save us now.

by cardsgirl95 on May 4, 2007 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know if it was an act
but Walker always acted like the least cerebral person ever when it came to hitting. He and Gwynn were both flirting with .400 one summer and were interviewed together. Gwynn went indepth about studying charts, video, etc. Walker looked at him like he was an idiot and said (paraphrased of course): "somebody throws a ball, I hit it. It's not that big of a deal."
Everybody off the bandwagon!

by Alxfritz on May 4, 2007 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Walker would be...
a lousy hitting coach. He was born to hit.

The best batting coach would have to be Ozzie Smith. Few players improved themselves with the stick as much as he did through hard work alone.

Acquire any Established Major League Outfielder!

by guayzimi on May 4, 2007 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting point on Ozzie, but
not even on the radar screen as long as Tony is manager.  Ozzie being AWOL from Cardinal-land is incredibly sad for all concerned.

by wildman on May 4, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

as much as I like The Oz -
his stubborn pride became cartoonishly extreme in that whole imbroglio. He's the one that loses by distancing himself from the organization. Too bad.

But ... someday Tony will ride on out of town.

by Urban Pawnee on May 4, 2007 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

LaRussa setting the table for McCrae's exit?
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/33B94ED33655ACE7862572D100132E48 ?OpenDocument


La Russa remains concerned about the quality of his team's offensive approach. The concern dates to the second half of last season when a lineup depleted by injuries never achieved consistency.

"I said that all April: Our at-bats aren't consistently good enough and lately our pitching has been taking a beating," La Russa said. "The way you fix it is, as long as the effort is there, is just execute better."

La Russa recalled a similarly sluggish offensive start a decade ago. "I remember in '97, our offense was slightly worse than this for the first however-many months," he said. "I remember how many games we scored two or less. By the way, '97 turned out to be kind of a (bad) year."

Can't remember if we fired a hitting coach in '97.

youneverknow

by meat on May 4, 2007 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not sold on LW as hitting coach
I think Larry would eventually be an outstanding first base or bench coach, but I do not think he would be a good hitting coach.  I remember reading a P-D article during spring training about Larry helping Duncan with his defense, etc. and in it he stated something to the effect that he can teach defense and baserunning, but not hitting because it came natural to him so he would have no idea how to teach it to others.  Sorry, don't have a link, but if anyone remembers the article please help me out.

by Handsome B Wonderful on May 4, 2007 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Larry Walker
I really like that idea, bring him in. Maybe we could have Larry Walker and Will Clark be platoon for the job that way they can split up hunting and fishing trips, or we could just get Jack Clark.

by birdsonthehat on May 4, 2007 11:09 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

uh oh
MSNBC reports that toxicology results on Hancock are in, and he was legally drunk...

by MarcGldstn on May 4, 2007 11:28 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

just reporting the news
not taking sides on the issues

by MarcGldstn on May 4, 2007 11:38 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Unfortunate
In my mind, none of this makes Josh's death at a young age any less tragic.

But, because this is going to dominate the media coverage for at least a few days, the team is going to have to deal with the fact that he was very, very drunk at the time of the accident (BAC at about twice the legal limit).  And that he had about 9 grams of weed in the car with him.  And that, in his intoxicated state and with those drugs, he was on his way to meet other members of the team.  

Not saying it's fair, or justified; just that the team is going to have to deal with this stuff

by tdawg on May 4, 2007 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

how pitchers approach MV3
good post larry.

i'd like to see if there's any difference in how pitchers have been approaching jim, scott and bert.  the obvious answer would be that they're just being aggressisve; exploiting the fact that none of the 3 are seeing/hitting the ball well.  who knows though, maybe they've picked up on something?

i'm convinced edmonds needs contacts or something.  i guess 20/20 vision doesn't help much when you're pulling your head out of most of your at bats though.

regardless, i like the the larry walker idea.  maybe he could just hop out of retirement and play RF for us too.  i'd be extremely surprised if he did worse than the current OF.

by Vince Coleman Firecrackers on May 4, 2007 11:52 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

NO SEAT BELT???
(shakes his head)  I don't know if I was mad at Josh before but I am now!  You want to talk about a preventable tragedy!!!!  Everyone, please, before you drive anywhere, PUT YOUR GODDAMN SEATBELT ON!!!!!  How hard is that?

by chuckb on May 4, 2007 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And the point would have been?
"Graham said the pitcher died "within seconds" of head injuries. Hancock was not wearing a seat belt, but Graham said the belt would not have prevented his death."

The seatbelt would have done nothing when he slammed headlong into the back of a towtruck at 65mph.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 4, 2007 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

didn't see that line
but it was stupid, nonetheless!

by chuckb on May 4, 2007 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's about the recklessness
The truth is that Hancock was being reckless on so many compounding levels that evening that the recklessness involved in not wearing his seatbelt simply could not factor in.  

Even so, in my opinion a person has every right to be shocked at Hancock's failure to wear a seatbelt.  That's reckless.

But driving drunk, while on his cell phone, while evidentally not looking at the road to verify whether any large, heavy, illuminated stationary objects were in his path probably constituted larger transgressions.

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on May 4, 2007 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Glad that...
tow truck driver is ok.

He must have one hell of a rig. Imagine sitting in your stopped truck without wearing a seat belt(I'm assuming) and getting slammed by an SUV going 68 mph... And he apparently didn't get a scratch on him.

Acquire any Established Major League Outfielder!

by guayzimi on May 4, 2007 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

good god....
not sure what constitutes a recipe for disaster, but this sure smells like one.

like many have said, it doesn't make things any less tragic.  however, it does offer explanations.  

more importantly for me, it gives me pause and some incentive for introspection.  i've been guilty of such stupidity in my life as well.  doesn't need to ever happen again.

rip josh.  you are missed, amigo.

by busch league on May 4, 2007 12:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

sorry...
my comment was meant to be a reply to that former post with the article in it.  

by busch league on May 4, 2007 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lesson learned...
I tell people that one of the best things that ever happened to me is that I had a car accident about two months after getting my liscense.  I put my dad's Chevy S-10 straight into a tree after losing control on a turn.  

I remember my head touching the windshield, and my legs bouncing and hitting under the steering wheel.  The next thing I remember was the smell of blood.  I checked my head really quickly, and there was nothing.  Then I felt the cold stream running down my leg.

I walked away with a small cut on my shin, because I was wearing my selt belt.  But for that seat belt, I don't even want to think about it.

The reason I say that it was good is because it taught me that I didn't want to be in the situation again, so I learned to ALWAYS, ALWAYS wear the seat belt.  Even if you are going three blocks, wear it.  

The thought of the sound of the car wrapping itself around the tree still makes me sick to my stomach.  I cannot listen to Once by Pearl Jam because it was playing when I did it.  

by Brock20 on May 4, 2007 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think
that there are a lot of lessons to be learned here.  Whether he would have lived or died doesn't really matter.  I think that this incident shows that a reckless and negligent lifestyle can lead to bad consequences. None though make his death less tragic and I'm not mad at Josh for this.  

I hope that through this loss we can all reevaluate bad decisions that we have made or continue to make and learn something from them. I know that will reevaluate my bad decisions. Otherwise his loss will be for naught.  I think that anyone's life deserves more than that.  If even one person learns something from this his death can turn out to be a positive in the long run.

by eglasier on May 4, 2007 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Edmonds pop ups
I still think it goes back to the location of his hands.  As I pointed out last week, he's holding his hands lower now than he ever had in his career.  

Having your hands lower (as I learned in Little League) will cause you to pop up.  Get your hands higher so you can get on top of the ball.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on May 4, 2007 12:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Carlos Zambrano
If I were a Cubs fan, I'd be starting to ask whether he's hurt. He's getting shelled again today.

by DCGreg on May 4, 2007 2:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If he were hurt
I think he'd be screaming it out loud, esp. since this is a contract year.

by sdrone on May 4, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If he's not...
facing the Cards he has a hard time caring...
Let's talk baseball!! (and let's hope the Cards start playing it...)

by guayzimi on May 4, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe it's us
Zambrano vs. St. Louis:        7 IP, 1 ER
Zambrano vs. Everyone Else: 30.1 IP, 25 ER*

* through three innings today

by DCGreg on May 4, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow
That is just brutal. And it says a lot about both Big Z and our offense this year.
Everybody off the bandwagon!

by Alxfritz on May 4, 2007 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I remember all the Chicago analysts opining
that Big Z "got himself straightened out" against the Cards. But I'm thinkin, "Not so fast. Cards don't have a major league offense so far."

by Urban Pawnee on May 4, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You left out the part...
...where he has given up a ton of walks to the league and we didn't draw one against him.  He had 19 walks going into today on 34 innings pitched, yet we couldn't stand there an look at four balls.

Just more plate (in)discipline.

by Phyrkrakr on May 4, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

how does everyone think wainwright is going..
to do tonight? i am hoping for 6 solid innings i think that would be a step in the right direction for him

by truemun12 on May 4, 2007 3:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

They playing tonight?
It's been raining for about 120 hours now.
Everybody off the bandwagon!

by Alxfritz on May 4, 2007 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

its going to stop
they'll play tonight. i guarantee it.

by stlcardinalsfang on May 4, 2007 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

struggling with this...
i have the kid wagonmaker on my fantasy team.  i sat him last start. but i'm thinking of rolling the dice on this one.  i'm going to run him out there in hopes of some inspired play in front of the home crowd on the first game after the funeral.  kind of like "the first day in the rest of the season" type of thing.  

no real logic behind it, but i'm trotting him out there tonight.  

by busch league on May 4, 2007 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

First day of the rest of the season
That's how I felt this morning, I hope the boys are feeling the same.  No logic to it, but there is a certain closure after yesterday's memorial service.  Hope AW will be inspired (not just for your fantasy team, but that's a plus).

by cardsgirl95 on May 4, 2007 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Step into the breach for us again, Adam.....
He certainly came up big against the Astros after we had an abysmal opening series against the Mets (same kind of drubbing the Brewers gave us).  "He pitches, he fields, he hits!"  Remember the suicide squeeze DP he and Yadi pulled off and his RBI double?  He seems to like the big stage.  Count me in as optimistic.

by wildman on May 4, 2007 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chan Ho Park...
is available.

Is Carp really going to pitch on Tuesday?

Let's talk baseball!! (and let's hope the Cards start playing it...)

by guayzimi on May 4, 2007 5:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Park
Can he hit lefties and play the outfield?

by wildman on May 4, 2007 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he just got
shelled the other day and when i lived in texas this guy sucked it up for yrs and was always having back issues say No to the HO
now not only a clever saying, but a team that plays in STL

by punchinjudy on May 4, 2007 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Love the new sig, Alx
Keep meaning to say so and never do.  Bandwagons can get full from time to time....

by wildman on May 4, 2007 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sometimes I wish I could get off the bandwagon -
but I'm a terminal case. Short of a lobotomy, I'm there for the long haul, since '67 when I read about some guy named Cepeda doing the cha cha atop a table in the Cards clubhouse.

Speaking of Cepeda, how many other 69 year-olds do you know that our out trolling around with a cornucopia of controlled substances, enjoying YA YA time? 39? Yes. 49? Once in a while. 69? That's gotta be some kind of record.

by Urban Pawnee on May 4, 2007 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yabut...
is he better than Keisler/Hawksworth/Narveson?
Let's talk baseball!! (and let's hope the Cards start playing it...)

by guayzimi on May 4, 2007 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wild rumor?
Cards banning beer in the clubhouse?

by Urban Pawnee on May 4, 2007 6:39 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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