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Around SBN: Celtics, Heat Score On Purpose In Super Sunday Wins

Morning post: it was just one game; just one game...

Update [2007-4-4 16:21:1 by lboros]: it's 2:15 p.m.; i'd like to propose that we just cede the argument to Danny1986. it's not that we all haven't been edified by that exchange, but you can have too much of a good thing. . . . i for one --- and i'm sure i speak for many --- think it's time to just congratulate danny and the mets on their two wins to open the season, and move on to more interesting subjects of conversation . . . . .[end update]

Well, this is hardly something that you want to start the season out seeing.  I know that it's tough starting out the season worrying about the team's makeup and character while suffering through these losses after being so excited regarding the beginning of the season.  

There were a few bright spots, however--

  • Kip Wells pitched better than the four runs he allowed.  If he keeps up a decent performance, then he'll turn out to be a pretty solid pickup.
  • Chris Duncan seems to be learning the outfield pretty well.  I only started watching partway through the fifth, but in that time, Duncan made two solid plays, including throwing a runner out at home.  I didn't see any clear miscues
  • Rolen hit a home run.  This team is going to need Scottie to stay at the very top of his game this season--backsliding by him would be disastrous to the offense, built as it is upon 'studs and scrubs.'  Him hitting that homer is more of an indication that he's truly back and himself.
  • Also, maybe it is still just early season optimism, but it never seemed that the team was wholly out of the game last night.  When Albert came to bat in the eighth, I was internally pretty confident that he could come up with something.  It wasn't the feeling one had during the 2004 world series.  That mini-rally in the eighth certainly felt like one that was going to erase that three point differential.  

It is frustrating to watch your team come up short against the cream of the NL, however.  It is specially hard to see this if one remembers how nailbiting the 2006 NLCS ended up being.  But we really do need to remind ourselves that this is just two games.  Most of us picked the Cards to be more than three games up by the end of the season  Lboros pointing out below that the 2004 and 1985 clubs both started 0-2 should be a little indication to everyone involved that very little is settled in this first series.  That's it for now, more fun with my evening/game thread to come...

Update [2007-4-4 8:54:55 by lboros]: not to intrude on your post, val, but i just read the p-d's article about carp's elbow and thought i would share an excerpt or two:

A bad Sunday night has become a bad week for Chris Carpenter. Still to be determined is whether it will extend to a bad month. . .

Though the club did not discuss the probability of Carpenter landing on the disabled list for a third time in four seasons, a club source said such a move becomes likely if there is no significant improvement in the next three days.

The Cardinals declined to make medical supervisor Dr. George Paletta available for comment.

"Any time something is going on with your arm, it's one: frustrating, two: a disappointment; and three: I don't know if it's alarming or not," Carpenter said about 90 minutes before Tuesday night's game against the Mets. "I want to make sure it's OK. That said, everyone I've talked to — doctors and trainers — is not alarmed. They don't think it's anything serious. They're trying to make sure that I know that everything will be OK." . . .

Carpenter said he first noticed the problem Tuesday morning when he could not touch his right hand to his right shoulder as he attempted to adjust his shirt while speaking on the phone with his parents.

Silent Bob: any thoughts?

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Morning, Valatan!
Wells looked pretty good. And by "good" I mean "Suppan."

I think this club needs an actual right fielder. The lineup is definitly missing one or more bats right now. Just seems punchless.

Cheers

by Alxfritz on Apr 4, 2007 5:47 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree about the bats
But, if Carp needs surgery...I actually think we should stick a fork in this season and become sellers.  

by RedbirdRay on Apr 4, 2007 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

No Way.
It isn't Walts style, he is an enteral optimist.  I have thought he would sell in the past and he ends up being a buyer...

by BigJawnMize on Apr 4, 2007 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't see who we have to sell
other than Rolen.  Selling our young starting pitching isn't worth it because we aren't paying them anything anyway.  I don't see anyone wanting anyone else other than Albert.  Unless you want to deal Albert.  I don't want to deal Albert.
Jimmy steps in to lead off the bottom half of the inning... with nobody on base... It could happen... just not tonight.

by Hollywood15 on Apr 4, 2007 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe...
We 'sell' Albert to the Yanks.

Walt buys a small island with the money, like ... Australia, and we all move there.

Cards become cursed for 80 years?

by redbird2006in on Apr 4, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

That '85 team,
Larry's link teaches me, started 0-4.  So bring on two more losses, I guess.

Larussa's teams always playing slightly better after the break is often brought up to praise him.  I wonder how his first halves measure up to the league average.

by jfs on Apr 4, 2007 8:32 AM EDT reply actions  

Natural for baseball imho
At the all-star break, teams in contention upgrade, fill the line-up holes and move on.

The teams out of contention trade their stars and play their AAA players for the rest of the year.

"Playing better" after the all-star break usually depends on what you do at the all-star break.  We're usuaaly buyers...

by redbird2006in on Apr 4, 2007 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

2004, but...
I feel that same way today that I felt after the first two games of the 2004 season, which we lost. We all know how that regular season and first two playoff rounds went. That said, our ace wasn't experiencing elbow problems. Yikes.

by bgh on Apr 4, 2007 9:07 AM EDT reply actions  

although
we really didn't have an ace back then

by tdawg on Apr 4, 2007 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd rather have carp hurt for the first week
than for the last two weeks and the postseason

by Valatan on Apr 4, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Emerging Ace
Great points. Carp emerged as the ace and then went down just in time for the playoffs. Hopefully, the news is a little better this time around and we have him for most of the season and all of the postseason.

by bgh on Apr 4, 2007 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

The whole Carp thing is out of our hands
We can only keep rooting on our team and hope we can salvage one today, if so, I'd say we're (as far as records go) in good shape.
I'm a Jenius!

by gibbons on Apr 4, 2007 9:32 AM EDT reply actions  

hmm...
I refuse to fret too much about Carp's condition until he's hit the DL.  Then again, I just touched my right hand to my right shoulder and it was extremely easy...

I'm more worried about our offense and the fact that our best available (or only available) pinch hitter late in games is Gary Bennett.  

Where's J-Rod when you need him?  Well, he was actually on our bench (getting his ring) watching the whole ordeal with wanting eyes.

by AndyB83 on Apr 4, 2007 9:42 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah
It seemed like we never saw Bennett pinch hitting last year.  This is why I would have really liked to see Eli make the team over Bennett.  At least Eli gives you a viable pinch hitting option.

by OCCardsFan on Apr 4, 2007 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

You didn't see Bennet pitch hit
Because he's our only back-up catcher, if they use him to pitch hit, they have no one else left to catch if Yadi gets injured with the exception of Spiezio for emergency catching.
I'm a Jenius!

by gibbons on Apr 4, 2007 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes...
... but the same should be true this year.

by AndyB83 on Apr 4, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah,
if we're going to be using our backup catcher to pinch-hit, I'd just as soon have Eli.

Plus, he's a righty that can play OF, which would further make Taguchi redundant.

by Nate811 on Apr 4, 2007 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wells looked awesome
He looked way better than Suppan.

In three years with the Birds Suppan never struck out more than the 7 batters Wells fanned last night.

His pitches had great movement, and he threw his curve ball with confidence in "non-curveball counts," and seemed to keep hitters off balance all night.

The only extra-base hit off him was El Duque's ground double down the line.

If he throws all year the way he did tonight, against a tough lefty-strong lineup, then Wells's signing will be one of Walt's masterstrokes.

by salvomania on Apr 4, 2007 9:51 AM EDT reply actions  

Agreed
I was excited about Wells last night and thought that he had some good movement. He did have a couple of untimely walks but I think Dunc and Molina will help iron those out a little more as the season progresses. You can't walk a guy like reyes with that kind of lineup.
Isn't it amazing how the mood has changed from our starters to our hitters throughout the offseason? And now that mood might switch to both sides if Carp gets shelfed for some time. Being the optimist that I am, I'm wondering should we at least consider a major letdown season?
I wasn't a religious man before but Albert Pujols confirms the truth that is Jesus H. Christ of Nazareth.

by 636thestruggle on Apr 4, 2007 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm excited about Wells too
He fell behind a little to often for my liking, but I love his tailing fastball against lefties. That is a nasty pitch.  He didn't get a great feel for the curve tonight which I think was a problem early.  That should get better as the weather gets warmer.  

He's a work in progress.  But he does have phenomenal "stuff."

Too bad he might end up being our #1 starter for a while.

by silent_bob on Apr 4, 2007 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

optimist
the optimist in me says wells can be pretty good.  the strikeout is a weapon that soup and marquis never had.  wainer and reyes also have that weapon.  for that reason i was a little more optimistic about the rotation (prior to carp's news).

of course, i think it should be pointed out that wells was behind on a lot of the batters.  this lead to those 4 walks.  if kip is going to turn the corner he needs to cut down on the free passes.  its been a big problem for him in the past.

by dmb60614 on Apr 4, 2007 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nothing can bring me down
After such a long off-season all the losses in the world cant bring my spirits down.Im not worried about Carpenter doctors said it was minor lets just trust them.I thought Wells was fantastic he was using both sides of the plate with all his pitches he only made one mistake.The one thing i didnt like was he was always down in the count.I thought we were in the game the whole night so its not a tough loss a couple mistakes cost us the game.

by Calhoun on Apr 4, 2007 10:14 AM EDT reply actions  

if it hurts
your right elbow when you try to pull on the right shoulder of your shirt with your right hand, Carp, use your left hand to pull on the right shoulder of your shirt.  Sheesh.

Agree with all comments about Carp's elbow being a minor issue.  Agree with all comments about 0-2 not being a big deal.  Am concerned with the lack of offense so far, but in Glavine and El Duque, you've got two top-tier SPs who are well rested and prepared.  Let's see how April progresses before pushing the panic button.

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Apr 4, 2007 10:21 AM EDT reply actions  

How much pain do pitchers put up with?
If that particular movement hurts, SURELY other stuff was already bothering him.   Or are arms THAT sore after your game day?

by sdrone on Apr 4, 2007 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

I had rotator cuff problems
when I was in my early 20s(still do in my 50s, in fact), and yes, your arm really does hurt that much after throwing the ball. I know; it's his elbow and not his rotator cuff, but I was just trying to illustrate a point...

by cardsrul on Apr 4, 2007 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm worried
My fear is that they might downplay his injury and trot him out there anyway, making things worse (See: Mulder, Mark and Isringhausen, Jason). He just signed a (for the Redbirds) huge deal, and if he isn't healthy for 2007 I want to be sure he has every opportunity to be healthy for the rest of his contract.

by TICY on Apr 4, 2007 10:22 AM EDT reply actions  

I think it's too early to panic
about Carp, but what bothers me is that this organization's approach to injuries is far too often either 1) clueless or 2) secretive bordering on deceptive.  IOW, I just don't trust anything they say about an injury.  In fact, it's gotten to the point that any time they describe an injury as "nothing serious," I automatically assume the worst.

This mood is nothing that can't be cured by a couple of good games from Wainer and Reyes, however.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Apr 4, 2007 10:24 AM EDT reply actions  

Elbowgate: my two cents
I'm worried.  

Obviously Carp's elbow swelled up quite a bit for him to lose that much range of motion.  From what I have read, sounds like Paletta and Weinberg checked it out, did some clinical tests on the ligaments, and Carp had no complaints of pain - so he's in a holding pattern.  

With these tests, you basically stress the ligaments by manually bending the elbow the two ways that it does not normally bend, and see if there is any pain or "laxity," or stretching of the ligament (UCL or Tommy John ligament).  These tests were negative. No MRI has been performed, and they say that they do not plan on taking one at this time.  I hope they end up doing the MRI anyways, and they probably will if Carp has no significant improvement.

My gut tells me he'll end up on the 15 day DL.  There has been no talk of a "forearm strain," which does quell my fears a bit - forearm strains are pretty strong indicators that the UCL is damaged.  

We'll all know more in a few days.  

Memo to Barry/Paletta: Shut 'er down, do an MRI, and figure this thing out.  I've defended you on many times regarding your handling of Rolen.  Don't mess this one up.

by silent_bob on Apr 4, 2007 10:25 AM EDT reply actions  

MRI
i was a little shocked when they said they wouldnt do an MRI.  i figured they would go with the abundance of caution theory and give him one.  what would hurt?

by dmb60614 on Apr 4, 2007 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

correction
what would it hurt?  doesnt seem to be any downside in doing an MRI.

by dmb60614 on Apr 4, 2007 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

MRI
The only thing I can think of is they don't want to overexpose Carp to MRI. While it's not the same as typical x-rays which carry the need to avoid excessive radiation, there is some interest among doctors to limit unnecessary exposure to the RF energy emitted by MRI machines. Radio-frequency energy does have side effects, so it's not like overexposure wouldn't hurt a person. Additionally, there is documentation on peripheral nerve stimulation from having an MRI. They could have an interest in avoiding PNS if they think he would be available to pitch soon.

Hard to tell what went in to the decision to avoid the MRI, but perhaps this contributes to the discussion as to what is could possibly hurt to have an MRI.

by jomfa on Apr 4, 2007 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I doubt
that PNS is an issue.  Carp hasn't had elbow issues in the past - it's always been the shoulder.  I doubt he's ever had an MRI on his elbow.  Benefits outweigh the risks, IMHO.

by silent_bob on Apr 4, 2007 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Silent Bob and others
thank you for the medical perspective.

by lboros on Apr 4, 2007 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

what about his nerve irritation in 2005
Was that an elbow issue or bicep?  I couldn't find anything definitive.

by enoscountry on Apr 4, 2007 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

You mean during 2004 playoffs?
They called it a bicep issue during the playoffs, but then said later study showed it to be a nerve issue.

by sdrone on Apr 4, 2007 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe
it was nerve irritation in the front of the shoulder.  Thats why they thought it was the biceps tendon at first - that's right where the biceps tendon runs through.

Again - thats in the shoulder, not the elbow.

by silent_bob on Apr 4, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Radio frequencies permeate our body
every moment of everyday.  The MRI is definitely a more concentrated form of RF but it's far safer than the kind of exposure that comes from x-rays or radio-nucleotide tests.

I don't understand how they can justify not doing an MRI even with PNS.  I'd rather have him miss a start due to minor MRI after effects than have him go back out on the mound when he's hurt.

This also validates my reaction toward Carpenter's extension -- even if he does come back and only misses one start...should have waited.

John Rodriguez for Right Field

by azruavatar on Apr 4, 2007 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

MRI
That's what's most confusing to me: why in the world wouldn't the team do an MRI on Carp?  Wouldn't more information be better?  It just seems weird -- there is no risk involved in an MRI, and it could be useful in helping diagnose a mysterious elbow pain.  

I'm trying to imagine the trainers / doctors talking about this in the clubhouse: "Well, Chris, we really don't know what's going on with your elbow, but we aren't going to do an MRI . . . we'll just wait and see what happens."

I dunno -- maybe its not that big of a deal, but it just seems weird to me.

by Ray Lankford on Apr 4, 2007 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ray Ray!
whats up - want to play a little outfield for us this year?  

My only explanation for the no MRI thing is that it may just show a bunch of swelling around the joint at this time since the elbow had so much edema in it.   Chances are an MRI will be performed before Carp throws off a mound again.

by silent_bob on Apr 4, 2007 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sure
Since I'm unemployed, I'd love to come back and play outfield for the Cards again . . . only problem is, Duncan has my number.

by Ray Lankford on Apr 4, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Man, I hope
you're right. This no MRI thing seems like a proclivity of both our club and our hated rivals to the north. They always wait till something's really f-ed up, then do an MRI and, surprise, find out there's been a real problem. I never could understand this. I'd be ordering MRI's immediately, then another round later, and then another if there's any doubt about anything. Maybe even one just for the hell of it. I know MRI's are expensive, but when you're talking multi-million dollar arms, so what. Just seems like they always wait too long to do the real tests, and then it's too damn late.

by rockin redbird on Apr 4, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

looper
"You can't replace a guy like that," said Braden Looper, one of Carpenter's rotation mates.

I still can't get over that last bit...

"God is back in the National League. Matter of fact, he is staying at my house." -Joaquin Andujar

by SleepyCA on Apr 4, 2007 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

first off
     It's actually a positive that an MRI is not being completed.  We only have people do MRI's if we suspect damage to a certain extent or if we think there is ligament damage.  Atleast that is what I have experienced.  After reading what SilentBob posted, thank you by the way, I really think it is just inflammed and swollen from a long night of over 100 pitches.  It just needs some rest and caution.  I expect carp back next week.  Of coarse they could be lying to us and carp could be preparing for surgery....either way I just want us to win tonight.
     Positive=Wells looked good, didn't deserve the loss...agree with the need for outfield bat.         Go CARDS!    
2/3rd's of the earth is covered by water, the other third is coverd by Jim Edmonds

by cardsphan04 on Apr 4, 2007 11:26 AM EDT reply actions  

So we're down to...
Hawksworth or Keisler. What about Franklin?

I wonder if Keisler regrets shooting his mouth off when he was sent down...

Acquire any Established Major League Starter!

by guayzimi on Apr 4, 2007 11:55 AM EDT reply actions  

It'd be nice
if it were someone fun like Hawksworth but I don't see that happening. Players I think would start games in the rotation before Blake Hawksworth:

Brad Thompson
Mike Smith
Randy Keisler
Troy Cate
Ryan Franklin
Chris Narveson
Josh Hancock
Braden Looper throwing with his left hand

by plh903 on Apr 4, 2007 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmm
thought I replied to stanchar.

by plh903 on Apr 4, 2007 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

It'll be Hawksworth.....
I have to think he made a solid final impression against the big club last Friday in Memphis.

by stanchar @ Viva El Birdos on Apr 4, 2007 12:03 PM EDT reply actions  

"I feel like it's a little better.
I'm not a doctor, but I feel like it's a little better."

No kidding, silly.  If they did ligament tests, the stretched out your elbow and broke up some of the swelling.  That is going to give you more range of motion.

Carpenter, when struggling on Sunday, appeared to be 'overthrowing' his curveball.  I wonder if perhaps he was throwing harder than usual or than he was ready, and the reaction was swelling.

I'm not particularly worried yet, even if Carp goes to the DL for 2 weeks.  We have yet to see Wainwright or Reyes yet this season, either of which could have breakout years that out perform Carpenter this season.

I'm especially keen on Wainer.  He may end up being the Ace of this staff by midseason.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 4, 2007 12:18 PM EDT reply actions  

So how does the rotation shake-down?
SUN - NYM -Carpenter
MON - Offday
TUE - NYM -Wells
WED - NYM -Looper
THUR - Offday
FRI - HOU -Wainer
SAT - HOU -Reyes
SUN - HOU -Wells
MON - PIT -Looper
TUE - PIT -?

If it isn't Carp, Wainwright and Reyes would have to go on 4 days rest:

To setup,
SUN - NYM -Carpenter
MON - Offday
TUE - NYM -Wells
WED - NYM -Looper
THUR - Dayoff
FRI - HOU -Wainer
SAT - HOU -Reyes
SUN - HOU -Wells (5th day)
MON - PIT -Looper  5th day)
TUE - PIT - Wainer (4th day)
WED - PIT - Reyes (4th day)
THUR - Off-day
FRI - MIL - Wells (5th day)
SAT - MIL - Looper (5th day)
SUN - MIL - Carpenter on 14th day.

If they decide to let Hancock spot start in PIT on Tuesday,
SUN - NYM -Carpenter
MON - Offday
TUE - NYM -Wells
WED - NYM -Looper
THUR - Offday
FRI - HOU -Wainer
SAT - HOU -Reyes
SUN - HOU -Wells (5th day)
MON - PIT -Looper (5th day)
TUE - PIT - Hancock
WED - PIT - Wainer (5th day)
THUR - Offday
FRI - MIL - Reyes (6th day)
SAT - MIL - Wells (6th day)
SUN - MIL - Looper (6th day)
MON - PIT - Carpenter on 15th day

Hmm....I like throwing Hancock) or someone in there and letting Carp have 2 weeks off, no matter what they say in the next few days.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 4, 2007 12:47 PM EDT reply actions  

If there's a spot start
won't it go to Franklin instead?  I suspect they'll rest Carp for a start or two, which may or may not mean he goes on the DL just to rest the arm.  If so, Keisler or Hawksworth can make the start.  Or Franklin could w/ Falkenborg being called up.  But I really doubt that Hancock would make that start.

by chuckb on Apr 4, 2007 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wells
really did some good things last night -- was consistently in the low 90's and peaked at 94.  Had good life on the sinker, though his location was off at times.  Despite all that, it seems like to me the knock (or one of them) against Wells in the past is that he would have these concentration lapses that would lead to his demise.  I think we witnessed a couple last night.  

First, the walks, though one was intentional.  Maybe in the 3rd or 4th he let the first two get on, one via walk and the other b/c he was behind in the count.  Then he got behind Alou and eventually was able to wriggle out of it.  A second -- the pickoff throw to 1st.  Maybe he just tried to throw it too hard b/c he was close to picking off Reyes on the previous attempt.  But he can't give up that base.  And finally, the backup slider (cutter?) that stayed up for El Duque and pushed us behind by 4.  Maybe it was a tired slider he threw but there's probably an equal chance that, after striking out Green on a fantastic pitch, and walking Valentin intentionally to bring up the pitcher, he thought he was out of it and just flung one up there.  He has a chance, I think, to be really good for us if he can maintain his concentration.  When he really needed to make a good pitch, he was able to make it.

by chuckb on Apr 4, 2007 12:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Brooms
As a Mets fan, I want to first give congrats to the Cardinals on taking advantage of the opportunities granted to them last October.  Winning a WS after barely completing a .500 season is impressive and truly an anomaly.

But I do want to alert you Cardinal loyalists to something that is very evident at this moment to everyone outside the 314 area code:  Your team is not very good.

This is clear to those outside cardinal nation who are not blinded by the excessive celebration your organization and city feels is necessary on this opening series against your hated rivals.  You celebrate how you want, but there's a clear indication that perhaps you just don't know how to win with class.

  • You don't extend your opening day celebration over 2 days in front of ANY team.  Banners are raised and rings are to be handed out on opening day and always before the first pitch of the season.  You then move on with the NEW season. Not even the RedSox took their ceremony to these levels.  And that was in front of the Yankees in April 2005.
  • You don't put championship patches on your gold trimmed jerseys and caps that are actually bigger than your team emblem.  Trust me; everyone already knows you guys are the 2006 champs. No reminder is necessary. Please tell me you are wearing those things ALL season?  You may as well just put on bulls-eyes.
  • You don't celebrate a game 7 victory in the visitor's clubhouse by mocking the opposing team's fans and players.  The "Jose Jose Jose" chant last October led by tonight's STL starting pitcher was classless.  And I assure you, it was not forgotten.
  •  Like you did with your team, you also introduce all 25 players from the other team on opening day. You introduced only the starting 9 for the Mets on Sunday.  This was on National TV and an event representing not just STL, but MLB as a whole.  You dropped the ball and managed it as if it was a local KPLR broadcast.  It was disrespectful and, even more so unprofessional.
  • Your manager should not throw out critiques of the opposing team's CF after an opening day loss.  I don't know what LaRussa was drinking this time, but calling Beltran's 250 foot strike that pegged Eck at the plate 'foolish' is ridiculous.  What is foolish is sending home a guy who runs like my 10year old niece, against a notorious CF cannon, down by 4 with only 1 out and the best hitter in baseball due up next.  Seriously, I hope Tony didn't drive home Sunday night.  If he doesn't find help for his little problem, his next book may be titled "3 Nights in Jail".
Point:  You guys are overdoing this celebration to the level of disrespect, and it's angering a sleeping giant who only an idiot would deny is far more talented and athletic than you. Quite honestly I am praying that you do some more 'in-your-face' pageantry tonight.  Perhaps you have Fredbird dance around the field to the Budweiser Jingle, wearing one of those stupid "Mets are Pondscum" t-shirts, throwing out free commemorative `2006 Champions' Toasted Raviolis to the fans, while balancing the WS trophy on his head?  Whatever you choose...I don't care. But I beg of you, PLEASE DO SOMETHING!!!

Listen, I lived in STL.  I like your city most of the time.  You are a good baseball town even though McCarver, Costas, and the Buck media mafia tend to give you far more credit on the National stage than what is necessary. So I mean this when I say that you guys cannot fall for this celebratory BS your city and org is feeding you and expect it to sustain your happiness all season long.  Your mgmt let you down by not reloading a team that is clearly on the downfall after posting only 83 wins last year.  Comparing you to the elite class of the NL (Mets), you have the edge at only one position (Pujols over Delgado).  You have a reliever starting tonight.  You have Muhammed Ali in CF.  You have an OFer who plays b/c his dad is the pitching coach, when you should have grabbed Carlos Lee.  Your pitching staff is in shambles. I can go on.....

It is undeniable that your team has guts and replaces the lack of talent and increase in age with a 110% effort mentality.  This mentality displayed by guys like Eckstein, Edmonds, Speizo, and Rolen is commendable and helped you strike gold in the 2006 playoffs. But in a 162 game season, your lack of talent and athleticism displayed so effortlessly by guys like Beltran, Wright, and Reyes will catch up to you.

This is why the Mets are a 95 win team now and for the next decade with a minor league system stocked with absolute studs; and the Cardinals are what they are....an 83 win team.  A team that is the first defending WS winners in 64 years to start a season by losing their first two games and scoring a total of two or fewer runs in those games (to add...against 2 starters that are a combined 98 years old).  An old team that is one year older and currently 2 games behind the Pirates in the standings.  

I really hope you guys enjoy your 2006 trophy and rings.  Now excuse me why I go get my broom.  

by Danny1986 on Apr 4, 2007 1:14 PM EDT reply actions  

I hate to break it to you
but the Mets haven't been a hated rival of the Cardinals in about 20 years.  And what's more, most Cardinal fans I know think they're about an 85 win team - translation, not very good.  Of course, considering the division they play in, that's enough to contend.  Which, as we all know, is all it takes some years to win the whole thing.

But if you want to take it personally that the team is, you know, proud of winning a championship, then go for it.

by Robb on Apr 4, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll second that yawn, but I did get a kick out of
this: "A team that is the first defending WS winners in 64 years to start a season by losing their first two games and scoring a total of two or fewer runs in those games"

Workin' pretty hard for those "significant" stats there, eh? Reminds me of a funny scene from an otherwise pretty bad Tom Selleck movie, "Mr. Baseball." He was trying to convince his manager not to bench him, and he said, "But I led the team in 8th inning home runs in the month of August!" or something to that effect. Good stuff. Cheesy movie.

by BTown Birds fan on Apr 4, 2007 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're kind of a jerk
I'll actually be surprised if the Mets win the NL East this year.  The phillies look tough and the Mets are very overrated...

Good luck in '07, and if the things you are so excited about really bother you as much as they seem to, you might consider seeking professional help.  

"God is back in the National League. Matter of fact, he is staying at my house." -Joaquin Andujar

by SleepyCA on Apr 4, 2007 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

you know, Danny
I was taking you somewhat seriously until you suggested that a guy who had a .952 OPS last year is playing only because of nepotism.

by DCGreg on Apr 4, 2007 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

perhaps
you know...I do take that back a bit.  Duncan is what appears to be a good player with some tools.  But he also may just be another Kevin Mass before the holes in his swing were exploited.  Until he can consistently hit the offspeed stuff, I stand by my statement that you guys should have competed for Carlos Lee instead.  

by Danny1986 on Apr 4, 2007 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lee?
Duncan is making $400,000 this year.  Lee is making $97 million over the next 5.  Do you really, truly think the Cardinals should have upped that bid on Lee, and would have actually gotten enough additional value out of him to justify the cost?  Really?  Because I'm not seeing it.

by Robb on Apr 4, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's a Mets fan
giving Carlos Beltran access to a private jet should be 'league minimum'.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 4, 2007 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

May
I take this moment to say that comment was brilliant.
On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Apr 4, 2007 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

interesting point
you know...it's a risk gambling on Duncan for the whole year.  It'll be great if he succeeds, but he clearly can be exploited on offspeed pitches. Plus he bats #2 and you needed someone to protect Pujols better than the oft injured Rolen and/or Edmonds. So it turns out that you lose out on Lee, who now goes over to your division foe and will hit 50+ HRs in that poor excuse of a stadium (I really hate that juicebox).

As for the money...absolutely spend it. You gave Edmonds far more than he is worth.  Regardless of that, you also have a new stadium and tons of revenue coming in...you can afford Carlos Lee.  You have to put fresh talent in that new ballpark.

by Danny1986 on Apr 4, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

you do realize
that a Jim Edmonds who was injured for almost half the season last year was worth almost as much as a completely healthy carlos lee? (3.7WARP vs 4.7 WARP) And that in 6 of the last 7 years, Edmonds was worth at least one more win than carlos lee in his single best career year?  Most years it was more like 4-5 wins, well over double lee's WARP.  Over the last 7 years, JED has been worth 27 games more than carlos lee.  The Carlos Lee signing was one of, if not the, worst signing of the off-season.  Edmonds re-signing was risky but comes with incredible upside.

I don't know why we're even talking about this; Lee was never going to go to STL.  I doubt if WJ even talked to him.  He's a decent hitter but not a great ballplayer and will be lucky if he ever puts up 30HR or .900 ops again, even playing in minute maid.

"God is back in the National League. Matter of fact, he is staying at my house." -Joaquin Andujar

by SleepyCA on Apr 4, 2007 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thank You, Bill James
You've convinced me.  I would much rather have Jim Edmonds over Carlos Lee.  His stats over the past 7 years truely justifies his value over a guy that has gone 30-100-350OBP in each of the last 4 years.  

You can use all the historical stats you want on Edmonds to prove your point, but sooner or later common sense will have to prevail, my friend.

by Danny1986 on Apr 4, 2007 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

"sooner or later common sense will
have to prevail, my friend"

it will, but I don't think you'll be giving in too soon.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 4, 2007 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

IQ Test
So seriously, you would rather have Jim Edmonds over the next few years batting behind Pujols over Carlos Lee? I made this one simple for you, chief:  It's a yes-no answer.

by Danny1986 on Apr 4, 2007 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, I'd rather have
Andruw Jones
Jermaine Dye
Adam Dunn
Bobby Abreu

None of which would be possible by signing Carlos Lee.  During the time Jim Edmonds will be on the Cardinals, Lee will make $11m and $12m.  He will then balloon out to 18.5 m for the next 4 seasons.
Jim Edmonds will cost $11m this year and 8m next.  

That's called good baseball sense.  I'd rather pay $18.5m in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 to Andruw Jones or Adam Dunn.

Based on your 'Baseball IQ', Carlos Lee is worth just as much as Carlos Beltran in the years 2009 thru 2011, as both are being paid the same.

Tsk.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 4, 2007 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ditto
I guarantee they'll be someone better in 2009.

by knieriemd on Apr 4, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

more to the point
we won't need jim edmonds over "the next few years".  He can happily retire at the end of the '08 season after mentoring that possible future all-star taking his place from within the organization. Meaning we pay league minimum at a marquis position after Edmonds reasonable 2yr contract is finished.

by Birds on the Matt on Apr 4, 2007 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

common sense?
there's no DH in the NL, and that is carlos lee's destiny.  Except that he really doesn't hit well enough to be a DH, and is barely over league average in the OF.

But hey, lets give him $100M and a no trade clause to play for an NL team!

"God is back in the National League. Matter of fact, he is staying at my house." -Joaquin Andujar

by SleepyCA on Apr 4, 2007 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, a few things:
  • Mets minor league system in 2006 was ranked #28 of 30 teams by Baseball America.  Lastings Milledge will never be a Top 50 player in this league, yet is considered to be the end-all-be-all for players in the minor league system.
  • It's a baseball game, not a soccer match, so the 'Jose, Jose, Jose' chant should be mocked as often as possible and with fervor.  Mets fans gathered in Game 5 of the NLCS last year behind the Mets dugout and chanted it from innings 6 through 9, loud enough that it could be heard on the national broadcast.  This was in Busch Stadium.  I'm sure the Cardinals players were none to pleased.
+Having made the playoffs twice in what, 15 years, doesn't make the Mets a 'rival' of the Cardinals.  In fact, since the introduction of the 3 divisions, they aren't really considered much of one.

+Beltran throwing home was indeed 'foolish'.  If he had not gotten Eckstein out, it would have allowed Preston to go to 2nd base, with the score 5-2 with the best hitter in baseball coming up and subsequently the heart of the order.  Up 4 runs, you keep the doubleplay intact, don't let more runners get into scoring position.

+To critique the Cardinals pitching staff as 'in shambles' when, as you said, your front two starters are 98 years old is a riot.  The Mets have no pitching in the minor leagues, and they have two ancient corner OF.  So, where are they going to come up with the money to go out and get 3 starting pitchers and two impact corner OF?  Not to mention a future 2B?  The Mets are a team built to win now and be sold off soon.  In 3 years, Beltran, Reyes and Wright will be almost all that is left of the 2006 team.

+As for the celebration, I believe the ring ceremony was not done on opening night because it was indeed a nationally televised game.

+The Mets closer makes Izzy look like a still lake on a cool summer evening.  Brad Lidge, I imagine goes through life thinking, "Wheew, I'm glad I'm not Billy Wagner".

+Finally, the Mets lost.  You can disparge the Cardinals all you want if it helps take away the sting, but frankly, the team you saw in the playoffs of the Mets is what they are should any of their ancient pitching go down.  They are literally putting a bandaid on their starting rotation hoping they can use the fountain of youth for the next 160 games.

So, I hope you feel better.  

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 4, 2007 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

sorry
I just can't take someone seriously with that absolutely ridiculous motto under his signature.  

by Danny1986 on Apr 4, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't take someone seriously
who thinks the Mets have a good farm system.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 4, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

alright....I'll give it a try.
Homegrown players under 25 who are currently on the Mets Roster:

Reyes - Wright - Heilman - Joe Smith - Mike Pelfrey - Milledge - Humber - Hernandez

That is Major League talent that the Mets farm system has produced in just under 3 years.

And I appreciate the BaseballAmerica plug and see that you are a loyal subscriber.  So then you would know that those rankings fluctuate from year to year as drastically as a South American Currencies exchange.  

Your ranking is based on 2006.  Likley analysis that was performed in 2005 and published in March of 2006.  So ranking is based on information from a Mets farm system that was largely representative of the pre-Minaya (he's the GM of the Mets  ;)) era, and certainly before the Mets had established their Baseball Academy in the Carib.

Since then, the system has established highly coveted players like Carlos Gomez (actually faster than Reyes) and Fernando Martinez. Good arms like Pelfrey, Humber, and Smith.  And other prospects that allowed us to pull of the Delgado and LoDuca trades. We've also acquired live arms like Borgos, Vargas, and Carvajal and another high potential OF in Ben Johnson.  The team in Port St. Lucie, managed by Gary Carter, won the Single A Championship last year.

So please do your own research when you start claiming expertise about another team's farm system, as opposed to throwing me outdated analysis published by someone else.  That's lazy.  I expect far more from the 'greatest and most knowledgable fans in baseball'.  I do not make assumptions about the Cards farm system, b/c I simply don't know or care.  All I do know is that your current Major League team is .500 caliber and lacks talent and athleticism beyond 1B.  

Now seriously...the motto.  It's got to go, Chaci.  I know too many Cardinal Fans that are pissed to no end when you raise that sign on National TV and embarrass your fine city.    

by Danny1986 on Apr 4, 2007 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you did your own analysis of the
Mets farm system?  Who knew we were blessed with a minor league scout posting here.  

Baseball Prospectus gave the Mets farm system higher ranks in 2007 (based on 2006) but still echos the sentiment of Baseball America in 2006:

Few teams in baseball have two outfielders to match Fernando Martinez and Carlos Gomez or two righthanders to match the duo of Philip Humber and Mike Pelfrey. So they get huge points for top-level talent, but there is little to talk about after that.

As far as 'talent and athleticism beyond 1B.' is beyond misguided.  The Cardinals have a superior 1B, 3B and catcher defensively, and superior 3B offensively.  The 'athleticism' you speak of I hope doesn't apply to Carlos Delgado, Shawn Green, PeesOnHisHands Alou, Paul 'I couldn't throw my own grandma out' Lo Duca and your starting rotation features three rickety bags of bones in Glavine, El Duque and Pedro's big toe.

'Chaci'?  Don't be a condescending prick.  You've embarassed yourself with some of the ludcrious statements you throw around as 'fact', but I'm willing to pass it off as simply being a 'homer'.  This new development to the schtick is sad.

Maybe the sign is a bit old.  Would you prefer this one?

I'm sure you'll be happy to come back and post if Braden Looper beats the Mets tonight.  The scary Mets lineup that has produced 2 XBH, 1 of which by a pitcher is surely going to give him a roughing up.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 4, 2007 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

YOU SEE!!!!
Now that is a good sign.  Kudos.

by Danny1986 on Apr 4, 2007 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

And
Not to mention the Delgado "double" being courtesy of old man Taguchi taking a Duncan-esque path to the ball.
PBR: When only the next best thing will do.

by sherwood on Apr 4, 2007 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Classic
"The team in Port St. Lucie, managed by Gary Carter, won the Single A Championship last year."

Wow. Gary Carter. Single A Championship. Really. You convinced me now that I know that. Seriously.

by enoscountry on Apr 4, 2007 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes...that clearly was my only point
in my explanation.

typical myopic answer coming from your kind.

by Danny1986 on Apr 4, 2007 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice spray pattern
Well, so far you've used a complete shotgun approach in blasting away at the Cardinals. So you'll have to forgive us if we fail to find each and every pellet and fire them all back at you at the same time.
Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Apr 4, 2007 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Danny
I enjoyed your post and all of the discussion it stirred up. I wish you and the Mets well, but be careful because the Phillies and Braves are pretty good and don't be shocked if those Marlin's kids make a run. (They are a young, athletic team.) The Cards have started off on the wrong foot and they have some things to work on. The National League is tricky this year. The Mets are good on paper, but that paper pitching staff is getting really old. Reyes, Wright, and Beltran are fun guys to watch and I have always been a fan of Delgado. You say we should be angry with our management about Lee, but what about you with your management about Kazmir (traded for crap) and what about Zito? Didn't he basically throw himself at the Mets this offseason? It should be a fun season and maybe we get to do the whole NLCS thing again.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Apr 4, 2007 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Two games?
I appreciate Danny coming to express an opinion, and staying around to defend it. Some of his points are valid (our offense has some holes, and we haven't looked particularly good so far) but a two game sample is not much of a basis to talk trash.

By the way, no, I don't want Carlos Lee, and I don't regret Houston overpaying him. I'd rather have Jimmy Baseball, thanks.

OTOH, I don't think Beltran's throw was foolish -I understand the percentages favor holding the runner, but once in a while a super play like Beltran's throw is a joy to watch, and can make a difference in the game. If Jimmy had done it, we'd have gone wild.

by madridbend on Apr 4, 2007 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah But...
Edmonds throw would have bounced 4 times.

:)

by Danny1986 on Apr 4, 2007 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

thanks
Fact is, you beat a better team on paper in the NLCS by overachieving in a very commendable manner.  I can't blame Beltran b/c Wainwright threw a absolute sick pitch.  I more blame Mota for crossing up Duke on that game 2 triple to Speizo (that was the most important play of the series). I also blame my team for crapping the bed in game 7 b/c they were no-hit by Suppan for 7 innings and couldn't capatilize on the momentum gained from Endy's grab.  And for exploiting that, you guys earned the right to celebrate anyway you want, be it with or without class.

To be clear, I was not trying to incite a riot here.  Nor should what I said be taken as whining or crying.  I honestly don't care how your franchise celebrates.  I actually want you to continue with the over-the-top ceremonious BS to make my team more angry.  I wasn't crying....it was a warning that more teams are now gunning for you, and they happen to have bigger guns.  The winter is for celebrating, and you had better start thinking forward or else your 83 win team will find itself in a huge hole in 2007.  All the 2006 Championship patches you wear can't help you then.  For that, I do believe you guys have a gripe with mgmt for not re-loading.  Carlos Lee was just one example i was using.  They could have done something on a lesser caliber.  Point is...they could have done SOMETHING.

As for the mets...yes the rotation is shaky.  We are relying on the young arms in back-end to come through.  But we did have 8 different starting pitchers before May 15 last year, and that formula worked well with the solid Bullpen and stellar offense.  I prefer a team centered around starting pitching, but that is a rarity nowadays.

NL East is stacked. I fully agree with you on the Marlins. They appear to be coming around on their 5-7 year cycle formula.  Braves improved the pen.  Phillies have better starting pitching, but they are still the Phillies.

Please don't bring up Kazmir.  Though I do think his arm will fall off (happens to most smaller left-handed power pitchers), I would love to have him right now.

Zito was way to expensive and overrated.  Plus he's a California guy and would have been eaten up my the NY media. You'll be pressed to find any baseball expert or even  a Mets Fan that is upset at Mets mgmt over that one.  

by Danny1986 on Apr 4, 2007 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

You see
This is the kind of dialogue I prefer. A fan of another team trying to promote it, while at the same time willing to point out its flaws.

If you want to come here and engage in well-intentioned conversation, you're more than welcome. You can even perform your bashing with an obvious light-hearted, snarky demeanor and you'll find plenty of people willing to take it as well as they give it. That's the way it should be.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Apr 4, 2007 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Invite Accepted
I'm sure I'll be back sooner or later, but not too often.  I'm usually too busy ranting on Metsblog.com.  

In the end...as you point out, this is all supposed to be fun.  It makes it even more fun when the banter actually has some intelligence to it.  Which I see is highly possible on this blog as long as it doesn't involve Hardcore Legend.  ;).

Good Luck tonight (and 2007).  You are going to need it (again).  

by Danny1986 on Apr 4, 2007 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

WOW....
poor attempt to sidestep a post that shot down all your points. You are an embittered mets fan, you were defeated last fall by a good baseball TEAM. Where do you get off trying to describe our team as being overhyped or that we have blinders on? Every preseason prognostication or analysis I've seen anywhere (TV, Magazine, Newspaper, On-line) has greatly questioned this cardinals team. No one is proclaiming this team to be great. We are just optimistic for improvement, but I guess thats not permitted under the east coast bi-laws.

How can you call our organization classless while coming over here and posting that cowardly bit? Hypocrites are not credible fans.

by thewizard3 on Apr 4, 2007 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not the place for trolls.
If you want to be a spineless troll, go to the ESPN boards. As far as stretching out a celebration goes, aren't you starting your 2007 celebration a little early. The Pirates are 2-0, so maybe you both should go ahead and start printing playoff tickets. Two final words for you. Atlanta & Philadelphia.

by deanj on Apr 4, 2007 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thank You Danny
For making my day.  It reminded me how meaningless these two games are compared to last year.

by enoscountry on Apr 4, 2007 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

According to this logic
The Royals, currently undefeated, will be going to the World Series and be considered the greatest team of all time. :(

by Fro Jackson on Apr 4, 2007 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think
the Royals will be much improved this year.

by Toddius396 on Apr 4, 2007 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's too bad
that your sour grapes and 2 regular season wins. doesn't alleviate the sting you must've felt went Yadi Freakin' Molina went yard on your "should be starter, yet still #1 setup man" Heilmann in Game 7 of the NLCS.  

One point I have to make.  I hope you're listening.  The Mets are an OLD TEAM as well.  Older than the Cards.  And the Mets broke down last year at the end and it cost them, while the Cards got healthy at the end of a brutal, injury marred season and proceeded to win the whole damn thing.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.  I would not be so sold on your team making it through the season without some major injuries.  O

Oh and you better do something about your starting pitching.  The Cardinals can't hit soft tossers.  But the rest of the league can.

by silent_bob on Apr 4, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow, you must really hate us
If you're willing to write up a two-page diatribe blasting a team that bested yours in a seven game series last October. Personally, I would be slightly annoyed, maybe even have trouble giving that team any credit for what it did. But, you see, I don't have to worry about that, because my team won every series it played last October.

Now let's go through your verbose display and find what's worth keeping and what's not.

  • You are correct about winning a WS after a barely above-.500 season being impressive, very correct indeed. I would certainly agree that it is impressive, right everybody!?! It is also correct that is was an anomaly, as any knowledgeable Mets fan would know, considering the '73 Mets were an even worse team than our edition last year, yet they still made the playoffs. That year, they defeated a vastly superior Reds team (just like we did to you), but they just didn't play good enough to beat the Athletics (or, how did you put it, didn't take advantage of their opportunities).
  • I knew well before your insightful commentary that the Cardinals were limited in minor league talent and were not a great team at the major league level like your Mets. But, you see, one of the major ways that franchises get "stocked with absolute studs" is that you have to receive one of the top picks in the draft. Unfortunately for the Cardinals, we've made the playoffs every year but one since 2000 (and missed it by a couple games that year), so we don't get the benefit of yearly handouts.
  • The New York Mets are no longer a "rival" of the St. Louis Cardinals, haven't been for a long time. We already have plenty of rivals, teams that we care whether or not we beat them during a regular season series, because there are actual bragging rights on the line. The Mets - who gives a damn? Maybe the Mets are looking for a rival because they think that one down year from the Braves after 14 consecutive division titles (IOW, them kicking your butt) means they aren't worthy anymore. Be careful with accusations of misguided arrogance. (Wait, wait, the Mets do have a rival - the Yankees. That's worked out real well in the last 11 years, huh?)
  • Seeing as the Mets haven't won a World Series in twenty years, who knows what manner of celebration they would impose on the team that lost in the League Championship series? Really - who knows? They could be just as gaudy as us. But we won't know that until they are actually good enough to win three series in October. Or, how did you put it again, take advantage of their opportunities.
Aw, hell, I'm bored with this guy already. I don't care about what he says enough to dissect the rest of his barely-contained hateful post. What I do know is that my team elevated their game when it mattered and they brought home the trophy, I will cheer them on to another well-fought season, regardless of the outcome, and I won't ever go to another team's fansite and shit on their readers because I'm pissed off that my team wasn't good enough.
Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Apr 4, 2007 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

YOU CAN'T ADD
and you expect us to take you seriously. Their combined age is 88, 37 and 41.  If you don't know your own team maybe you should lay off ours.  Thanks for you overly insightful post we really do appreciate it.

by DJ4508 on Apr 4, 2007 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hate to point this out but...
While we are on the subject of elementary math that would be 78.

Not that I am defending the guy but those who live in glass houses...

by OCCardsFan on Apr 4, 2007 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Im sorry
but thats pretty damn funny...LOL

by El Hombre on Apr 4, 2007 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll stop disliking Jose Reyes
when he stops posturing in the dugout on national TV.

by sdrone on Apr 4, 2007 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, dunno about other regions
but in Chicagoland we came back from commercial as the player intros were ending.  We didn't see 'em.

by sdrone on Apr 4, 2007 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Enjoy your REGULAR SEASON success
Hey little guy- sorry our World Championship celebration hurt your feelings.  Poor Baby.

But thanks for explaining why the Mets woun't get out of the first round of the playoff this year! Your quote "(to add...against 2 starters that are a combined 98 years old)"

Yeah you said it- your "aces" are a combined 98 years old and you have ZERO pitching behind them and washed up Pedro.  Have fun winning the NL East then getting beat by better starting pitching in the playoffs.  

P.S.- You'll be singing a different tune after you get beat by Braden Looper tonight.  

2006 Cardinals- An underdog story

by Born in 82 on Apr 4, 2007 1:32 PM EDT reply actions  

really
what's the point of engaging?

by tdawg on Apr 4, 2007 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

all those responses
musta made danny1986 very happy; exactly what he was looking for.

by lboros on Apr 4, 2007 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

lboros speaks the truth
I am kind of suprised so many peole rose to the bait.

by gonzostl on Apr 4, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well...
...that's cause I'm an idiot.

I was bored at work and it has certainly helped me kill the last 2 hours.

I shouldn't have fed the troll, though.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 4, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

well.....
Any excuse that makes work go faster is acceptable to me....

by gonzostl on Apr 4, 2007 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

feeding the troll
... yeah, but it was fun reading!  that guy is very bitter...
I'm going to my happy place now.

by RosevilleRedbird on Apr 4, 2007 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would rather
Defend myself against a troll than remain apathetic.

I understand why you wouldn't respond to such a person, as it only feeds his need for attention and/or his perverse pleasure in watching other people get worked up. But I find that it goes against my personality to leave undefended something I cherish.

Sometimes my old signature is too true.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Apr 4, 2007 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

True enough
That is well put Solanus; and I can get behind that reasoning.  But how about passive rather than apathetic......It makes me sound like less of a wuss (or does it)....You know like passive agressive....I have never heard of apathetic agressive....:)

by gonzostl on Apr 4, 2007 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

but what's to defend against?
the "attack" on the cardinals and their fans really boils down to this:

"i hate the cardinals and their fans with a passion because they took something that i really wanted --- a win in the nlcs."

if i were him, i'd be frustrated too. i probably wouldn't proclaim my frustrations to met fans, but that's just me.

i'll also allow that his critique of the cardinals is not without substance --- our team has its flaws, and maybe it's not a playoff team. we've all been discussing those very issues this winter --- and we know the cardinals a lot better than he does.

let him go on his way. i hope he feels better for having come in here.

by lboros on Apr 4, 2007 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, it was kind of fun
When we started saying nice things back, he went away. It's really too bad - I'd rather he stick around and banter back & forth. (Sarcasm meter pegging zero)
Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Apr 4, 2007 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would expect
that those types of posts will keep on coming throughout this season, unfortunately.

by madding on Apr 4, 2007 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

well said, Larry
Sounds a lot like one of the Mets visitors to VEB during the NLCS.  When they didn't sweep the series he never returned.

by wildman on Apr 4, 2007 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

off topic
but can someone tell me why joe buck, al, and dan get rings? that is a joke. do the hotdog vendors, ushers, security gaurds, etc. get rings? for some reason, this really pisses me off.
satis superque

by ortic jones on Apr 4, 2007 1:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Rings
All full time employees of the Cardinals get rings.  Secretaries, Tickets sales people, you name it.  Around 400 people, all told.  

Technically, anyone who helped generate revenue for the team did help win the World Series.  Granted, the guy who mowed the grass had a millionth of a percent as much of an impact as Chris Carpenter, but still....they helped.

by Robb on Apr 4, 2007 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

right....
... and the rings aren't all the same. the player rings are a good bit nicer than the employee rings.

at least, that's usually how it works.

by kindred on Apr 4, 2007 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does anyeone have a bp.com subscription?
Will Carroll put up something on Carpenter, and I would kill to know what it says... but i won't pay 5.95.  

by Jonathan23 on Apr 4, 2007 2:00 PM EDT reply actions  

it's definitely worth the money
BP has great articles and they update frequently.  Much more worhtwhile than paying for espn insider etc.

As far as the article, he doesn't say anything that we haven't already heard; IE elbow is swollen, carp had bone chips previously so it could be worse than they're saying, we'll know more next week.

The BP guys are very set against signing pitchers to long-term contracts, so they go on to use this as an example of why it's not wise.

"God is back in the National League. Matter of fact, he is staying at my house." -Joaquin Andujar

by SleepyCA on Apr 4, 2007 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

The BP guys
It's great to try to avoid long-term contracts for pitchers, but that's just not the market.  If you want to have some semblance of a good pitching staff, you have to dole out at least one big contract.  Either that or consistently pump out a legit ace or two #2's at least every 6 years...have fun with that.
Pujols > God

by joker24 on Apr 4, 2007 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

AJ Burnett
For those of us still looking back, AJ Burnett getting shelled -- yanked in the third after giving up three runs and loading the bases.

by DCGreg on Apr 4, 2007 2:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Available?
Maybe if the Jays get blown out AJ will be available at the trading deadline.  He will only have one year left until his opt out (which I would guess he would do...)...

by Lawless on Apr 4, 2007 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Belliard for the Nats today
3 for 4 with 2 doubles.  Be nice to have him coming off the bench and not Miles.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 4, 2007 3:39 PM EDT reply actions  

on the topic...
of players on other teams, good call on jorge julio, larry. just blew the game for the fish.

by longhornscardinals on Apr 4, 2007 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ugh.
I wanted Belliard to be resigned but I'm happy Kennedy is here.
Bench Juan Encarnacion!

by STLCardinalsFan on Apr 4, 2007 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Nats...
have a funny little collection of middle infielders.

They've got Belliard, former Card Jack Wilson, Felipe Lopez, and Christian Guzman.

I feel bad for Belly. Poor guy took about an 80% pay cut and now has to watch Guzman, the $16 million man, play in front of him.

Acquire any Established Major League Starter!

by guayzimi on Apr 4, 2007 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Former Card Jack Wilson
plays SS for Pittsburgh.  That's a different Wilson -- John or Joe or something like that.

by chuckb on Apr 4, 2007 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

sonofa...
you're right. I swear I read a Nats game summary that said Jack...
Acquire any Established Major League Starter!

by guayzimi on Apr 4, 2007 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, after 2 games
David Eckstein leads all NL-leadoff hitters in OBP.

Gotta look for the positives.  

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 4, 2007 4:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah
But he's not that exciting, now really!
Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Apr 4, 2007 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hardcore...
... you aren't the guy who's always at the games holding up signs are you? the guy with the Cardinals cowboy hat?

i just got that idea, for some reason, whenever you posted that pic to Danny1986.

(it doesn't seem like you could be he, because you post during games. but maybe you've got a PDA or something with you.)

by kindred on Apr 4, 2007 5:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Ha, no
I had the 'Walk your Dog, not Pujols' in my signature since we spotted it that one game during the Gamethread.

He was ranting and I remembered I had that AP photo saved of that sign during the World Series.

It's nice to see he called me an idiot as a parting shot.  Classy.

Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 4, 2007 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Valatan
you say you only tuned in after the 5th inning but conclusively say this is in no way reminiscient of the 04 "series" against boston.

did you see the entire first game? you throw out stats and quips but if you arent watching the games how can you comment on the "feel" of watching them?

all the stats and boxscores in the world arent a substitute for actually watching the games.

not trying to be confrontational or holier than thou, but i watched every pitch but a handful of games last year, and plan to do the same this year. just a bit confusing to be told by someone who missed half the game how i "feel" watching every pitch, isn't correct.

by Rentboy on Apr 4, 2007 6:07 PM EDT reply actions  

the 8th inning is after the fifth...
... he said that Pujols' AB in the 8th was not reminiscent of the '04 World Series.

and it wasn't. for one thing, this is April. it's not the World Series. for another thing, it didn't feel that way. because it wasn't nearly as high-leverage of an AB. it was one game, which the Cards were probably going to lose no matter what Pujols did in that AB.

Valatan could've watched nothing but that single AB, and his statement would absolutely be correct.

by kindred on Apr 4, 2007 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice...
two losses and the front page guys are getting called out. I think I've read the word "hate" on this thread about three dozen times.
Acquire any Established Major League Starter!

by guayzimi on Apr 4, 2007 6:16 PM EDT reply actions  

I have no idea...
why Adam Kennedy is sitting tonight...

by stanchar @ Viva El Birdos on Apr 4, 2007 7:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Maybe its
oblique injury related, ie cold weather and its effects.

by silent_bob on Apr 4, 2007 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here is Hummel's quote:
"Preston Wilson will be back in right field, where he started on Sunday, and Aaron Miles will replace Adam Kennedy at second base. La Russa said there was nothing to that move other than he wanted Miles to start a game."

Also in the article TLR promised that Izzy will pitch tonight come hell or high water...

Some weird stuff so far this season.  Game 3 and Miles is already getting starts to relieve our new 2b?  This is going to be a long season.

by OCCardsFan on Apr 4, 2007 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

rings
i was just wondering since they gave rings to walker and eldred, i was just curious, do u think they may have given one to flynn kile? i think it would have been nice if they had
Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Apr 4, 2007 7:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Nice Thought
I hope they gave her one, and bet they did.

by liam on Apr 4, 2007 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

lineups
muts

reyes ss
loduca c
beltran cf
delgado 1b
wright 3b
alou lf
green rf
valetin 2b
maine p

cards

eck ss
dunc lf
AP 1b
rolen 3b
edmonds cf
wilson rf
molina c
miles 2b
looper p

...kennedy?? i'd still much rather see spezio than wilson. though i still think he'll get a homer before it's all set and done.

by stlcardinalsfang on Apr 4, 2007 7:10 PM EDT reply actions  

That's ok, Molina
went 2 for 4 on Sunday, and was moved down to the 7 spot on Tuesday.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Apr 4, 2007 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

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