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community projection results: carp and juan'cion

edmonds may not be ready by opening day, according to the p-d; from the tone of the article, i'd read that as "probably won't be ready." we're told "the mildest `hiccup'" could delay edmonds' availability by a week or so; no word on how long a moderate hiccup might hold things up, to say nothing of a cough, belch, or bout of reflux.

assuming edmonds does open the season on the dl, skip schumaker likely will be in uniform for his 2d consecutive opening day; skip left the game yesterday with a sprained ankle but i haven't read anywhere that it's deemed a serious injury. the cards face tom glavine in game 1, so schumaker probably won't be in the starting lineup; likeliest wilson, taguchi, and encarnacion in the outfield, although duncan might get the nod (despite the platoon thing) as a reward for his work last season. tony likes to hand out little perks like that.

still hard to see how john rodriguez fights his way onto the roster. despite an 8 for 17 spring he's likely bound for memphis, unless they trade him. you'd think some american league team might need a left-handed-hitting dh / outfielder. but then, the cardinals might find themselves needing a left-handed bat . . . . in the post article linked above, la russa evinced some impatience with preston wilson, who's swinging a sluggish bat --- 11 whiffs in 22 at-bats; i'm vaguely reminded of junior spivey's line from last spring. spivey, though, was coming off a couple of serious injuries and was never as good a hitter as wilson to begin with; i'm not convinced yet that preston is this year's junior.

very briefly, here are the results from the carpenter and encarnacion community projections. carp first: in descending era order, here's how the forecasts line up:

IP H BB SO HR W-L ERA WHIP
VEB 221 195 48 189 20 19-7 3.04 1.100
ZIPS 209 187 42 170 21 16-6 3.06 1.096
CCH 220 188 52 189 18 19-7 3.11 1.091
CHONE 204 189 43 167 19 n/a 3.13 1.137
Shandler 218 n/a n/a 178 24 18-7 3.23 1.115
PECOTA 202 187 48 182 19 14-8 3.26 1.163
Marcel 195 178 46 162 20 14-7 3.42 1.149
Bill James 236 222 63 187 25 16-10 3.55 1.208

for the first time, VEB's projected era for a st louis pitcher was the lowest among all those under review; we weren't, however, wildly optimistic compared to the other, more objective measures. as with a number of earlier projections (see wells, edmonds), our carpenter figures matched those projected by the guys at cardinals clubhouse (CCH) almost perfectly. here's the aggregate projection:

IP H BB SO HR W-L ERA WHIP
212 193 48 187 21 16-8 3.24 1.139

and here are the aggregate projections of the 1 through 4 starters in the st louis rotation:

IP H BB SO HR W-L ERA WHIP
carpenter 212 193 48 187 21 16-8 3.24 1.139
wells 124 128 58 87 21 7-9 4.66 1.491
wainwright 172 168 56 142 18 13-8 4.06 1.302
reyes 153 142 47 132 21 10-8 3.91 1.235

in the last four seasons, the cards have had 3 starting pitchers with era's of 4.06 or lower only once --- 2005.

the encarnacion projection . . . . why did we bother? there's incredibly little difference of opinion over what this player will do in 2007. more than 70 percent of the respondents (32 in all) put encarnacion's ops within a 25-point range (.750 to .775), and all but two of the "objective" projection systems put him in the same range. however, in his 8 seasons juan'cion has fallen outside those parameters as often than he's fallen within them; in the last three seasons his ops has only fallen within that range once, last year. he's really not that consistent a player from one season to the next; his average year-to-year change in ops is 50 points. since encarnacion was at .760 last year, a 50-point swing would put him in the range of either.810 --- a career high --- or .710. . . .

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB | AVG OBP SLG
Marcel 506 66 138 27 3 17 72 37 | .273 .327 .439
VEB 498 66 137 24 3 18 74 34 | .275 .321 .444
PECOTA 461 62 126 25 3 15 60 31 | .272 .323 .437
Shandler 501 64 137 26 2 17 71 34 | .274 .320 .436
Bill James 522 67 141 28 3 17 75 34 | .270 .322 .433
CHONE 539 69 143 26 4 17 67 37 | .265 .320 .423
ZIPS 442 58 117 22 2 12 53 28 | .265 .315 .405
CCH 423 57 112 19 2 16 60 27 | .265 .309 .433

and here's the composite:

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB | AVG OBP SLG
496 64 134 26 3 16 68 34 | .271 .317 .431

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no suprise
JimmE from head to toe is a potential 15 day DL. This has been my biggest concern. The fact that Schumaker has had a great spring provides a little comfort. JaunE is a worry too. Jrod might break camp with the team, and JaunE and JimmE start  the season on the DL.

 Wilson will have an oppertunity to be a very important member of this team, but only if he starts to make  contact with the bat.

 Got my tickets for the weekend series in Pittsburgh on the 28th, 29th, 30th of September. That could prove to be the clincher!

by nybirdfan on Mar 12, 2007 9:39 AM EDT reply actions  

Head to Toe
I like that you said head to toe, as those are actually the two body parts that kept him out of the lineup last year.  

by the red baron on Mar 12, 2007 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

yes, but....
don't forget the all the other sore spots we played with.

by nybirdfan on Mar 12, 2007 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder...
I wonder if J-Rod would be a good trade piece to bring in a guy like Akinori Otsuka?  Kindred's diary from over the weekend got me thinking about that sort of deal.  At the time, I was thinking of one of either Narveson or Hancock, plus a Haerther/Stavinoha level OF prospect.  Looking at Johnny Load, though, he seems to be an even better fit.  He's ML ready, good hitter, DH or reasonable outfielder.  I think Hancock/Narvie plus J-Rod deal for Otsuka would be a great move to strengthen the pen, it helps out the Rangers, and Rodriguez would finally get a chance for some real playing time.  

by the red baron on Mar 12, 2007 9:54 AM EDT reply actions  

otsuka
the rangers have lots of options in the outfield.  j.rod wouldnt interest them.  i think they would also have their sights set quite a bit higher.  otsuka was great as a closer last year and his three year averages are 2.43 era, 1.18 whip, 8.74 k/9.  there is the risk that the american league catches up to his funky delivery and/or age catches up to him (will be 35 this season) but he isnt the kind of guy you dump for spare parts.  j.rod, narveson, hancock, etc. are spare parts.

by dmb60614 on Mar 12, 2007 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree
You may know more about the Ranger's outfield than I do, so they may have lots of options.  I do, however, know that their starting pitching lacks depth in a big way.  Their prospects to help out in the rotation are all a ways off still, (with the exception of Volquez, and I just don't see him putting it together.) and they took steps to bring in Gagne to close and strengthen the pen outside of Otsuka.  I think they might be willing to deal him to try and add some depth.  As it stands now, if they have even one injury, I don't see where they come up with a pitcher to pick up the innings.  

BTW, just for my own information, who are the options for the Rangers in the outfield?  I don't follow them real closely, particularly at the major league level.  

by the red baron on Mar 12, 2007 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

trading otsuka
trading otsuka is kind of like trading duncan...the only reason you do it is to 'sell high.'  otsuka is a proven reliever who has closed.  the rangers would consider moving him for a good prospect or proven starting pitcher.  narveson, hancock and those types just dont fit the bill.  texas reportedly asked the mets for mike pelfrey who was the #20 prospect on BA's list.  otsuka also has a good contract being arby eligible for 2007-2009.  essentially every other team would be interested in trading for otsuka...kind of like every other team is interested in scott linebrink.  hard to see the cards topping other teams in a bidding war.  

the rangers outfield options--kenny lofton, frank catalonotta, nelson cruz, brad wilkerson, jason botts, sammy sosa and marlon byrd. wilkerson was injured last year and should be recovered and much better this year.  botts and cruz are youngsters with potential.  you might take j.rod over some of those guys, but the rangers arent exactly hurting for outfielders.

by dmb60614 on Mar 12, 2007 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, yeah
but if sosa is the DH then catt moves to the OF.  still little room or need for someone like j.rod.

by dmb60614 on Mar 12, 2007 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rodriguez and the roster
One thing to keep in mind is the possibility that the team will start off with 14 position players instead of 13 because of all the early days off.  TLR hinted as much at one point earlier in the spring.

by DCGreg on Mar 12, 2007 10:00 AM EDT reply actions  

That could be true
but I think the Cards will most likely open with 12 pitchers.  The off days do make 11 possible, but I still think that TLR and Duncan will be concerned enough with limitied innings totals that they'll carry 12 the whole year.  

by the red baron on Mar 12, 2007 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

it might
depend on the health of guys like Edmonds and Enc. If they're limited, or if they just need a few more days but not a full 15, I could see the team starting with an extra position player.

Separately, I can't help but be disappointed that Troy Cate apparently is being sent down today.  I hope and expect we'll see him on the big club before the season ends.

by DCGreg on Mar 12, 2007 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed
I hate to see Cate sent down, and there seems to be a pretty good chance he'll be back at some point in time.  On the other hand, the Cards have now decided they want to see what he can do as a starter, it seems, so I'm sure he's being tossed over to minor league camp just to get more innings.  I do wonder if he would be a specialist if recalled later in the year, or just what the plan for him would be.  

by the red baron on Mar 12, 2007 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Carpenter, Rodriguez
Hmm, this year will be Carp's age 32 season.  I thinkhe is due for a small bit of regression.  Let's face it, while he is good- the best Cardinal pitcher since Tudor or maybe even Gibby, he isn't a HoFer.  I think VEB is a bit over optimistic.

For J-Rod's sake, I wish the Cardinals released or traded him.  To me it seems clear he deserves a shot, but on the Cardinals at best he is a #6 OFer.

by Zubin on Mar 12, 2007 10:14 AM EDT reply actions  

Carp
He will face a decline someday, sure, but probably not this year. No pitcher is injury proof (sorry, Pedro), but Carp's temperament and relatively low mileage make him as solid a bet as any very good pitcher.

I agree that J-Rod deserves a better chance than he is likely to get.

by madridbend on Mar 12, 2007 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

He only has 100 victories
If he wins 20/year for the rest of his contract, he'll have 200.   That'd probably be a starting point, but I doubt he gets 20/year.

Incidentally, Cot's Contracts has started adding total payroll numbers to the top of each team's page.

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/st-louis-cardinals_111971260115041890.html

by sdrone on Mar 12, 2007 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

keep in mind
the guy was basically a league-average pitcher until his age-29 year. Good as he's been the last three years, he still has a huge amount of catching up to do.

Carp will probably have to string together a slew -- I'd say at least 6 and probably 8 -- more top-notch seasons before he'll get any serious HOF talk.

by DCGreg on Mar 12, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's going to have to maintain
his current awesomeness to a pretty old age:  His baseball reference comparables don't inspire a ton of confidence, either.

by Valatan on Mar 12, 2007 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's not a Hall of Famer
But over the last two years he's done a pretty good impression of one, which is why I think it's fair to say he'll age like one. We also have to keep in mind that pitchers don't age so fast or so normally as position players.

by DanUpBaby on Mar 12, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't understand why LaRussa
has such a bias against J-Rod. I realize he bats lefthanded, but with Goocher and Wilson stinking it up, it just seems like a major mistake to send him back down.

by Red in Chicago on Mar 12, 2007 11:55 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, I think a lot of us would rather
see J Rod than Wilson.   I was perplexed by the Wilson signing.  I dunno, maybe his clubhouse presence is THAT good!

by sdrone on Mar 12, 2007 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Signing career average Preston Wilson
was a fine move.  All intangibles aside, his pop and splits, and his ability to play all three outfield positions (especially with the creaky edmonds) make him well worth the 1.5m kraft singles we gave up for him.   If he decides to hit .200 all year, well then it was bad, but who would have guessed that?

by Jonathan23 on Mar 12, 2007 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

me
I'll guess it right now.  He hits mendoza levels all year.  He and Encarneasada are the same player.  It's frustrating to have one of them on the roster and irresponsible to have two.

by azruavatar on Mar 12, 2007 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

No no,
roll the r's like this.  Encaaaarrrrrrneasada.

by sdrone on Mar 12, 2007 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

is Gameday frozen?
Thanks for the link - looks like Looper is pitching well (4 scoreless innings with 4 H, 2 K)
but it seems to be frozen at that point.

by madridbend on Mar 12, 2007 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's back for me
Good outing by Looper.
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Mar 12, 2007 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Looper continues
to hold it down.  Still not sure whether i'm disappointed or happy about it.

by RedbirdRay on Mar 12, 2007 2:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Whether I like the idea or not
If he does a good job, I'm happy with it.

by sdrone on Mar 12, 2007 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Me too.
When it comes right down to it, I'm rooting for the uniform.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Mar 12, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gotta like Loop-d-loop's game today
 IP  H  R  ER  BB  SO  HR   ERA  GO  AO
4.2  4  0   0   0   3   0  0.00   7   4

And his stats so far this spring:

G  GS    IP   H  R  ER  BB  SO  HR   ERA  WHIP  GO  AO
3   3  11.0  10  1   1   1   5   0  0.83  1.00  15  13

The only criticism I can see so far is that he may not be doing a very good job of holding runners on.  The Bravos seemed to be running on him pretty aggressively, even with Yadi behind the plate.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Mar 12, 2007 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

sounds to me
like he's solidified his spot as the 5th starter.  I'm not saying it's right or that he'll keep it, but he's done so well to this point that he's cemented it, IMO.

by chuckb on Mar 12, 2007 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree...
At this point it definitely seems like an inevitability.  Of course, if Looper continues to pitch this well as a starter, I'll be the first to congratulate Duncan on his sagacity and keen insight.

Personally, I'd rather it be Thompson as the #5 starter and Looper as the 8th inning guy instead of the other way around, but what the heck do I know?

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Mar 13, 2007 4:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ankiel!
Good to see him finally put one in the seats.

by DanUpBaby on Mar 12, 2007 3:12 PM EDT reply actions  

and
he doubled in his next AB.

by DCGreg on Mar 12, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've got a brilliant plan:
Ankiel makes the roster as an outfielder, La Russa has Carpenter warm up on opening day, and then Ankiel comes in as the starting pitcher! Nothing could possibly go wrong!

by DanUpBaby on Mar 12, 2007 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

That aside
I wonder what more Skip gives the team than Ankiel does.
Walk your dog, not Pujols.

by Hardcore Legend on Mar 12, 2007 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nothing
As Bill James once said of Henry Cotto: If Skip Schumaker is a major league ballplayer, I'm an airplane.

by DanUpBaby on Mar 12, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow
Bill James called Henry Cotto Skip Schumaker?  

;)

by Robb on Mar 12, 2007 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just
don't give Yadi a hunting knife anytime soon and I like it.
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Mar 12, 2007 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kennedy...
Has he gotten a hit yet ? .... and was Ankiel's HR the first for the Cards this year?  

by Timbo02 on Mar 12, 2007 4:17 PM EDT reply actions  

erm
I think today was his first game. Don't be too hard on him :)

by Birds on the Matt on Mar 12, 2007 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh not trying to be...
actually was asking as I live in Los Angeles and one of my co-workers asked me how Kennedy was doing....and I just wasn't sure if he's played other than today....as to the other question...just stupid....of course it's not the first...brain fart!...LOL

by Timbo02 on Mar 12, 2007 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ank's Jack
It was the first HR by a Cardinal at Roger Dean Stadium this spring. Today was Kennedy's second start.

by liam on Mar 12, 2007 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Any chance
That Tagg Bozied ends up being Duncan's platoon partner?  I don't like the idea of Preston Wilson being in the lineup very often.  

by Toddius396 on Mar 12, 2007 4:46 PM EDT reply actions  

No...
Only because that wouldnb't be fair to Mike Shannon. He seemed genuinly perplexed by "Tag Bahzoid" on Sunday's telecast.
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Mar 12, 2007 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I found that funny too
He had trouble with Polanco for a while too.  I also enjoy Shannon saying 'Maddux'  He pronounces it like it's the same as this guy.

by _pistol_ on Mar 12, 2007 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's a lost cause
he's had years to practice saying "Schnucks" -- once he decides how something is pronounced, that's that.

by plh903 on Mar 13, 2007 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oi
7 runs 2 innings - Matty Mo just got abused by the cubs. Like with a broom handle. Oucharoo.

by Birds on the Matt on Mar 12, 2007 4:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Cubs '07 = Reds '06
Anyone else getting this feeling. They are going to be able to hit the cover off the ball but injuries will slow them down and their pitching won't hold up.

by stl3bagger on Mar 12, 2007 5:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah
When Jason Marquis is your #3 starter, you have problems.

And other than Derek Lee, I'm not convinced that their offense has any On-base players (without looking very deeply).  They won't be able to wait for the 3 run homer because no one will ever be on base for it to happen.

by Robb on Mar 12, 2007 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Murton, but they're platooning him
The Soriano pickup was funny.  They needed a big splash, but he's the kind of player that plays right into offense's OBP issues.

by sdrone on Mar 12, 2007 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

well...
I'm PRAYING that somehow happens because that is a team with a lot of talent right now.

by Timbo02 on Mar 12, 2007 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

A lot of talent...
For a fantasy baseball team.
  1. The way it stands now they are going to platoon Murton with Cliff Floyd if he can stay healthy. - Bad Move
  2. Soriano is set to lead off and play center. - Bad move x 10
  3. After Zambrano what do they have? Rich Hill could be very good, but Marquis and Lilly are league average or worse. Prior and Wade Miller? Please.....
  4. Dempster as their closer? If he fails will Wood's arm stay intact long enough to produce?
  5. Mark DeRosa? haha, Ok!
  6. I'm pretty sure the last I read Izturis won't be their starting SS- Yeah let's have probably the best defensive SS in MLB ride the pine.
  7. IMO Barrett's bat can't even come close to making up for his defense and awful game calling.
The list goes on.....

by CardinalsfanIraq on Mar 12, 2007 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree about Barrett
but otherwise, yeah--this is a team that doesn't know how to make use of the talent it has. Signing Cliff Floyd was one of the least sensical minor moves of the off-season.

by DanUpBaby on Mar 12, 2007 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Meh.
As long as they don't take away Murton's AB because of him.

You are talking about a team that's best left handed hitters were JJ, Zambrano, and Marquis. It makes sense. Well, the money was stupid, but that's the invisible caveat about everything Cubs this offseason.

Ward and Floyd should be helpful off the bench -- in that they're better with them than without them, used appropriately anyway.

by plh903 on Mar 13, 2007 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Stats wise
I was surprised to see that Izturis isn't nearly as good as I thought he was.  In spite of what all my Cub friends say, I still say it was a good pickup.  They desperately needed a solid middle infield defense.

Dunno where you're getting that he's not the starter.  He is.   Cedeno probably won't even be the backup; they'll keep Theriot up and send Cedeno down.

by sdrone on Mar 12, 2007 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

They should just
wave the white flag wrt defense, and start Theriot at SS. Izturis might not OBP .300 this year.

by plh903 on Mar 13, 2007 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

i agree their pitching is in trouble...
Looking at it from the outside, I could see why people might think the Cubs rotation is in better shape than the Cards', because they've got known quantities in Zambrano, Lilly, Marquis, etc.

Knowing what we know, I think we should be very comfortable with our rotation as compared to the Cubs' - for the exact same reason. Reyes, WW and Wells should be better than whatever they're going to put up in those slots. Lilly may not stay healthy, to say nothing of Prior/Miller/Wood. And it may help the rest of the league if Marquis DOES stay healthy.

As far as OBP, last year they didn't have a single player with an OBP better than 75th in baseball. Michael Barrett and D. Lee were tied at 75th with an OBP of .368; Murton was at .365.

by nycbirdo on Mar 12, 2007 6:00 PM EDT reply actions  

i don't know, i'm scared.
pitching: zambrano is damn good, maybe the best in the league, the guy won 16 games last year on the cubs, and i don't think he even won a game in april. lilly and hill both look pretty solid, and marquis looks good too actually. prior is done, but there is a kid called guzman, who i think is going to take the fifth spot.

also, their bullpen may be the strongest part of that team. howry and eyre are solid. dempster can be good; wood is hovering.

we know they can slug, but you must give dusty baker at least some credit for their recent on base percentages. from what i have seen (and that is a lot, considering i get full cubs tv coverage), they look much more patient at the plate, and pinella is preaching as much.

now, i expect them to fall apart. i find myself expecting/praying for an injury to a key player: zambrano smashed his shoulder into the ground today, and lee pulled his groin.

but, i'm scared, no doubt about it, and also fascinated by the prospect of the tragic fall.

Evident The Wash.

by brock on Mar 13, 2007 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Z's
peripherals are falling apart and he's the lone survivor of Baker rape. I would be somewhat surprised, but not shocked, if Wainer or Reyes have a better year. FIP, ERA, IP whatever.

by plh903 on Mar 13, 2007 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Cubbie Bullpen
I don't see their bullpen being that strong. Dempster is not a solid closer at all. Eyre is just a league average lefty specialist. Howry is a good set=up guy but that all I see they have. No solid long relief guy, Cotts is the classic "one career year" guy. Wuertz isn't bad but he is just a average guy too. ANd then you have Wood, who could be excellent or could pitch his normal week of games before headed to the DL.

In the Central, I see the Cards,Astros, and maybe even the Brewers (depends on Turnbow) having a stronger bullpen.

by stl3bagger on Mar 13, 2007 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

P-D article
BTW, I loved this part of the article:
La Russa recently noted the slow starts by Taguchi and Wilson but appeared more concerned about Wilson's problems than Taguchi's.

Rested Sunday, Wilson managed an RBI double over the first-base bag Saturday against the Baltimore Orioles but has a .136 average with 11 strikeouts after 22 at-bats. Taguchi has made better contact but was hitting only .130 entering Sunday's game against the Atlanta Braves. Wilson, who last season struck out 121 times in 501 at-bats, recently explained his early scuffles as a product of his hitting style.

"I think big guys who have longer swings -- it takes us a little bit longer," said Wilson, bothered recently by shoulder discomfort. "I've been that way my whole career. I've never had a great spring training."

La Russa sounded unconvinced about Wilson's explanation "Preston's got to turn the corner here pretty soon, I read his comment about a big, long swing and spring," he said. "Well, April and May is spring, too. Shorten your swing."


LOL.  Sounds like Tony is running out of patience with one of his "veterans".  I noticed he wasn't in today's game at all, either...
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Mar 12, 2007 6:49 PM EDT reply actions  

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