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Premier League Baseball?

Those of you that have frequented this site over the past year may know me for coining such terms as Bi-Polar Betty, Sophie, & Wagonmaker, coming up with the strangest analogies (here & here), and having an unnatural fascination with all things WPA (too many to link all of them). I live behind enemy lines in Waukegan, IL, and have been a jack-of-all-trades in the job market, working in such diverse fields as medical textiles, chemical processing, fast food, outboard motors, retail, and nuclear power.
I don't write for a living & I've never run a blog, so this is my first official post; a big thanks to Larry for giving me this opportunity.

The other night, I happened to catch a Deutsch Bundesliga (German soccer) match between Bayern Munich and Bochum. Bayern Munch is a perennial powerhouse, while Bochum generally bounces between the first and second divisions within the DBL's two-tiered format. Watching this got me to thinking - what would Major League Baseball look like if it was switched to a similar system? A format where the best teams compete in the first division and the lesser squads battle to be promoted to where the big money resides. A format where quality players can be sold between teams, meaning well-run, small-market franchises don't end up watching their young talent walk away. Plus a few other wrinkles while we're in the mood. (I will use the English Premier League for reference.)
After a few hours mulling it over, I realized two things: there's no way I can think long and hard enough to think this all the way through on my own; and this would be a great way for everyone on VEB to kill some productive work hours on a Friday.

A quick synopsis of the Barclays English Premier League (or EPL):
The EPL is the world's most watched sporting league and most lucrative football league, followed by over a billion people. It is widely regarded as one of the best leagues in the world along with Spain's La Liga & Italy's Serie A.
The league was formed in 1992 from the top division of The Football League and is currently contested by twenty clubs. The EPL was started as a response to the top clubs wanting to break away from the rest of The Football League, trying to capitalize on an upswell in the popularity and financial viability in English soccer in the late 80's.
Other European leagues use a similar system to the EPL; there have been 61 different clubs which have participated in Serie A over the last 75 years, with only Inter Milan participating in every season. (Check out Wikipedia's EPL page for further information.)
Obviously, the point of the EPL is to ensure that soccer fans have an opportunity to see the absolute best in English football (and to optimize the money making potential for its best clubs).

How would the MLB system work?
In much the same way, with the only changes (from the EPL structure) being how many teams are in each league and how many move between the leagues. This may appeal to some ownership groups, upset that the lesser teams are siphoning off their profits. This may also appeal to fans who believe that the talent pool has been unnecessarily watered down.

How does the media money work?
The EPL is working with a structure that gives roughly 80% of the money to the Premiership clubs and 20% to the second division. This would probably need to be adjusted (60-40 or 67-33) to help make the MLB structure work (and palatable to the relegated ownership groups). There would also be better stadium, advertising, and associated revenues within the first division. This difference in money and exposure would be an incentive to the 2nd division clubs to push hard to finish at the top of their league.

What teams are relegated to the second division?
Sure to be a much discussed topic; this would be dependent on organizational philosophies. Obviously, teams like the Yankees and the Red Sox, with significant revenue streams, would be able to afford the highly-prized prospects and the young established stars of the 2nd division that are available for sale. Poorly run franchises like Tampa & Kansas City would be doormats of the lesser league. The Twins pose an interesting problem, in that they are a well-run organization that churns out prospects, but resides in a small market. Can they play well enough to stay with the big boys or do they take the profitable route & sell off their young studs? At the opposite end would be teams like the Cubs, well funded but historically less than proficient. Two good discussion points: look back at the 1994 Expos, and the 1997 & 2003 Marlins with their resulting fire sales.

How would free agency & trades work?
Trades would work as they always do, but free agency would be dramatically altered. The EPL (and many other football leagues) use a transfer process where a player is sold from one team to another. This ensures that teams that are good at developing their own players are able to profit from it, instead of watching their homegrown talent leave with only a draft pick as compensation. I'm not sure if is part of their program already, but a percentage of the transfer fee could be given to the player as a further reward for their good play. (See Averill, Earl for historical significance.) Obviously, any player dropped from their club would become an unrestricted free agent and not subject to transfer rules. (One note: unchecked capitalism has resulted in the record for transfer fees in the league skyrocketing from £3.75M in 1993 to £30M in 2006 - how this would be affected by a NYY/BOS-fueled salary escalation is intriguing.)

How does this affect the minor leagues?
I think this could really open up the current structure. The major league teams in both divisions would be limited to three levels of developmental squads, as they would still need injury flexibility and to be able to generate their own talent. But by limiting their pool of available players, the resulting wave of free agents can be scooped up by now-independent minor leagues that can develop those players and sell them to MLB for profit. Also, free up the larger AAA cities - give them a chance to develop their own legacy, not dependent on MLB handouts. (It might open up a situation where a minor league powerhouse, akin to the Baltimore Orioles of the 10's-20's, could supplant a poorly run 2nd division major league franchise. It is a radical possibility, but I think it could ultimately be healthy for the game of baseball.)

How does this affect the draft?
To prevent a 1950's Yankee-style dynasty, where they scoop up the cream of the available amateur talent, or a bonus-baby bidding war, the draft should remain. But it could be adjusted to give a significant advantage to the 2nd division clubs. Give them two passes through the draft order before the Premiership gets a crack at it, and give them an additional round every 4th or 5th. But with the reduced developmental league roster space, limit the draft to 35 players per team. This entire system works well in two ways: it gives a boost to the 2nd division clubs and frees up more players to sign with independent minor leagues.

After reading all of that, we still haven't asked two big questions. First, could this actually work? Theoretically, yes. It's based on a formula that has worked in the past for the world's most popular sport and for its most popular leagues. It is a perfect opportunity to overhaul many aspects of MLB, to filter out the less than desirable portions of this organization. And it would put the best possible product out onto the field. Realistically, there are so many variables, so many strong personalities, & so much resistance to change, that it seems impossible to make even minor changes, never mind a much needed cleansing of the sport. And the total amount (and depth) of change is so daunting that it's easier to think of this premise as if it has already figured itself out.
Second, would it actually improve the sport? I really don't know; the tremendous amount of upheaval required to pull off this change in philosophy and operation has the potential of destroying many franchises, and baseball as a whole. Taking longtime minor league teams and setting them adrift in a "sea of independence." Relegating franchises that have been operating for more than a hundred years, while potentially steering them towards financial ruin. Freeing thousands of young players into a saturated market, where there's no guarantee of proper compensation or a decent chance at making the major leagues. Maybe in the end, this whole shift in thinking and doing things will be productive, but the health of the sport could be touch-and-go in the interim.
Whether it would improve anything or if it would work at all, this is certainly a useful exercise to look at our grand game from a different perspective. To question whether MLB is doing things in the best way possible.

I figure that's enough of a rolling start to get the creative juices flowing. Next week, I want to take another look at the general system, how the money works, and the relegation of certain teams, using the collected comments of the VEB community as a springboard for further discussion. The following week, we can do the same for player transactions, the draft, the minor leagues / developmental squads, and any other useful topics that come out of the conversation.

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Toons!
I'd love to see it (relegation) happen, but know it never would. Would definitly make some teams' owners (Pirates, Royals, etc.) try a little bit smarter, if not a little bit harder.
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 9, 2007 5:39 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Funny...
you should write this... Apparently, they're thinking about moving our way.

Anyway, since it would be up to the players and owners to make it happen there's absolutely no way it would happen as it as A)bad for the players, and B)bad for the owners. The former would be required to hand over their hard won free agency rights and the latter would exchange a guaranteed ticket to the big time with a requirement to actually perform.

A promotion/relegation system would have to be part of a new league.

Acquire any Established Major League Starter!

by guayzimi on Feb 9, 2007 8:08 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good point
There's nothing that says that the EPL or any of the other European soccer leagues have the perfect system. The top clubs get to make a lot more money than those fighting to stay in the Premiership, meaning it is that much harder to crack that fraternity. Unrestrained capitalism is useful for the few to make money, but not for the whole to prosper.
Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Feb 9, 2007 10:26 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nothing to add
just wanted to say really interesting post. Enjoyed it.

by plh903 on Feb 9, 2007 9:21 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just to be precise...

... The only team to participate to all the last 75 years of Italian Serie A is Inter, because Milan was demoted to Serie B (the highest of the minor series) twice, once due to illegal betting, ant the other one due to having played very bad!!

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Feb 9, 2007 12:21 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Doh!!!

I apologize, I forgot that internationally what in Italy is known as Internazionale Football Club, is usually called Inter Milan!!! I was thinking to the other Milan team, known as Associazione Calcistica Milan, that usually is called only AC!!!

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Feb 9, 2007 12:23 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How many
teams would be moving from first division to second division, and vice versa, year to year?  I'm not really familiar with the mechanics of the soccer leagues.

To me, from a fan's point of view, that would be the weirdest and perhaps most alienating thing about the system: your team flip-flopping multiple times over five years between big-time and smaller-time.  Wouldn't, say, a team like Cincinnati (just off the top of my head) be likely to be in that middle ground often?  Theoretically, as a fan of baseball and its purity, I might like the new system.  As a fan of the Reds, I probably wouldn't.

Maybe it would work differently.  Please say if so.

by jfs on Feb 9, 2007 9:34 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I believe
it's three up, three down
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 9, 2007 10:02 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Consistent
with baseball tradition ... sort of.
Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Feb 9, 2007 10:18 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also,
while the demotion can be hell on a fan base, from what I've read about hardcore epl fans, the bottom of the division becomes a sorts of a pennant race (a bizzaro-pennant race) to see whether your club gets sent down or not. And the promotion back to series a is yet another cause for joy.
Cheers

by Alxfritz on Feb 9, 2007 10:35 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed...
And this would definitely affect which teams are "buyers" or "sellers" at the trade deadline. Every team would be in the hunt or chase for something important.

by Big Rev on Feb 9, 2007 12:39 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah
I was in Catania when they got promoted to Serie A.  Bedlam would be an understatement.

by Valatan on Feb 9, 2007 4:13 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmm
I guess my question would be "What problem are we trying to solve?" Parity? That doesn't seem to be the hot button issue that it once was and the EPL isn't exactly the model of parity. If its to force some of the poorly run franchise's to do a better job of management, it might work. Being relegated would certainly be a financial debacle and might force an owner to sell a team if he can't keep it in the first division. Can't see the players, the union or the agents going for this though. Maybe someone could answer this question for me? (Its something that I always wondered about the EPL.) When two teams negotiate a transfer, does the "buying" team then have to negotiate a contract with the player. (Similar to the BoSox and thier effort to land Matsuzaka?).

by hicksey5771 on Feb 9, 2007 9:48 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not really a problem
It is only a theoretical exercise, designed to stimulate thought about how the sport operates. A series of "what ifs" that lets us examine the cause-and-effect of small & large changes to the current structure.

As for the transfer process and the greater EPL system, I know ever so slightly more than what you can read on the Wikipedia page (meaning I've caught a couple matches on Fox Soccer Channel). It would seem reasonable that the buying team would negotiate the deal, although I would like to see some sort of joint oversight committee for player salaries, to make sure salaries are consitant with league revenues.

I could definitely see some resistance by the Players Asssociation, but with the transfer fee escalation that has occured within the EPL, an oversight committee, and the player's cut associated with the transfer, there should be plenty of money to throw their way.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Feb 9, 2007 10:17 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A couple of thoughts
First, a "joint oversight committee for player salaries" sounds an awful lot like "collusion," or at least like an antitrust issue.  That's just a legal quibble, though.

The bigger issue, I think, is the money.  I don't doubt for a second that an EPL-type system would be a tremendous windfall for the top clubs, and for the elite players, just as it has been for the Manchester Uniteds and Ronaldinhos of the world.  But I see this system as re-arranging existing revenue toward the top of the pyramid.  

In my mind,  there doesn't seem to be a way to generate enough additional revenue to share that would make this worthwhile in any sense for either the teams guaranteed to be in the lower division (Tampa, Pittsburgh, KC, etc.) or those who will constantly be on the brink of being shifted down (Cincy, Minnesota, Toronto, Texas, Milwaukee, etc.).  Those two groups could be as many as two-thirds of the existing franchises.  I see no reason why they would want any part of that risk, when the current economic model seems to be working very well for nearly all franchises.  The trend in American sports leagues has been toward more revenue sharing, not less.

On the player side, I'm not sure why the players union would want a system that seems guaranteed to immediately and drastically increase the number of players who will make at or near the league minimum, as elite teams spend vast sums to acquire the top players.  As it stands, a middling 2B like Adam Kennedy can make a few million bucks in baseball; that would quickly shift to a few hundred thousand.

Interesting thought experiment, though.

by blove121 on Feb 9, 2007 10:41 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Joint Oversight Committee
Means that you have a panel, equally composed of owners/executives and players/union officials, that determine a set of metrics that are used to determine a salary structure that mirrors changes in league revenues. This would be agreed upon by both sides. It could include guaranteed multi-year contracts based upon the age, track record, and other factors of the player. Transactions could be simplified to Team A posting Player B, who's guaranteed to get a 3-year $24M deal to whomever buys him (the length of the contract might be negotiated between the parties, but not the value).
Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Feb 9, 2007 11:10 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Player Transfers and the Bosman Ruling
As an Englishman let me just add a few comments on what a "transfer" actually is. In reality a transfer in soccer is nothing more than a trade in baseball. One team trades the rights to a player to another team for cash and or players.

The difference is that the club purchasing the player has to negotiate two fees. Firstly they negotiate the transfer fee and then they negotiate the player's new contract. They do not simply assume the old contract in the same way as baseball. Each player move is associated with the player signing a new contract.

The Bosman ruling is football's equivalent of the Curt Flood ruling. Look at the Wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosman_ruling to see details but basically the Bosman ruling gave footballers the right to become free agents at the end of their contract and to sign freely with any other club.

by realbrit70 on Feb 9, 2007 2:57 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bosman
Interesting article on Bosman himself in the most recent FourFourTwo (I think -- the one with Wenger on the cover, anyway).  Apparently he's living in some little town in Belgium, nearly broke, and full of bitterness and self-pity that he didn't see any of the riches his case created for other players.  IOW, just like Flood.

by Perry on Feb 9, 2007 6:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Major Problem...
As an avid footbal fan, I'm quite familar with the relegation system.  Is indeed three up and three down, but in England I belive there are four levels.  Premiership, D-1, D-2, and D-3.  

You missed one other facet of football, the loan system.  Teams can have a player loaned out to another club to either develop them or so that they can have an audition for a possible sale to the club.  I think this is an interesting issue that should be explored further if you are serious of thinking about this.  For example, the Cards have too many arms right now.  We could loan Chris Narverson to the Kansas City Royals, or other team that needs pitching, to see how he does against MLB level pitching on a regular basis and not as the mop up guy.  

The problem is that teams generate a tremendous amount of revenue off the visiting team. Tampa probably makes more money off the visiting Yankees and Red Sox then they do off the rest of their home games.  I doubt they would want to give it up.  

Also, you are going to have an outcry from the purists who will decry history.  

by Brock20 on Feb 9, 2007 10:34 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Four Levels / Loans
Yeah, if you really think about it, this premise has so many facets that can be discussed that it makes it hard to have a focused conversation. And makes it near impossible to touch on everything the first time through.

The use of independant minor leagues might step in where the EPL's D-2/D-3 system is. As long as they have a large enough fanbase, there's no reason a well-run minor league team in New Orleans, Las Vegas, or Portland couldn't supplant one of the bottom feeders in the second division (like Tampa). If we can get rid of the media-money welfare leaches and bring in quality organizations in their place, it can't help but be healthy for the sport. It would take several years to really clean out the system, but that particular aspect could work. MLB should want to have to the best run teams in their league.

When I first thought about this, I discussed it with my brother and we must have talked for 45 minutes about how the loan process would work, what the limitations would be from both sides, and how the teams would be compensated. I didn't want to bring it up in the main post as there was certainly enough to chew on at this point and I was leaving a little in reserve for the next two posts.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Feb 9, 2007 10:56 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Schedule
If we cut the league in half, would we also cut the number of games played?  Would there still be a NL and AL?  It would seem that we would get bored of the same matchups over and over.  

by eeyorethedog on Feb 9, 2007 10:42 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A few years ago, on a message board far far away
I posted the following:

I have a plan that will transform the current major league divisional structure into 2 elite 10 team leagues(the new NL and AL), with another 10 team relegation league. I'm talking about major reform here - not the kind of thing that's going to happen, but if i could change the system, I'd do this

first, before we get started, i'd abolish the DH and interleague play

ideally we want to narrow each league down to 10 teams - to do this we'd have one transitional season using the current divisional structure, except houston goes to the AL west to make things easier

all teams play 80 game first half schedules - 20 games against each of the 4 divisional opponents (yes, I realize one team would have to be idle everyday for this 80 game stretch - just go with it)

after 80 games, the top 2 clubs in each division have officially qualified for 12 of the 20 spots in next season's NL and AL

for the remainder of this transitional season, the first and second place finishers are divided up into 2 6 team groups (one in the AL and one in the NL). They'll play another 80 game schedule for the second half of the season, playing each group opponent 16 times.

the teams in first place after the second 80 games are the respective pennant winners. They'll play each other in the World Series.

the 12 teams finishing 3rd and 4th in their divisions after the FIRST HALF of the season, will be placed into 2 6-team groups (one for AL, one for NL). They'll play 80 games (16 games per opponent). The top 3 teams in each 6-team group qualify for next season's AL or NL. Meaning 9 of the 10 spots in each league are now filled. The bottom 3 teams in each of these groups are still alive, and will compete in a playoff for the last spot in their respective league.

the 6 last place finishers from the first half of the season are effectively relegated, but they still have a shot at being in the majors next season - it just might not be in the same league they were originally in

the 6 last place finishers will compete in a "shit group" playing 80 game schedules (16 games against each other) in the second half of the transitional season. The top 2 finishers from that group are still alive. The bottom 4 are out - more about what happens to them later.

those 2 clubs who finished atop the "shit group" will be the 4 seeds in the playoffs to determine the last spot in next seasons NL and AL. Playoff format will likely be best 3 of 5 for each round. The 2 teams that win each playoff qualify for next seasons AL or NL, the 6 teams that don't are relegated.

thus leaves us with a 10 team AL and a 10 team NL for next season. The idea is, that in the first half of the season, there will be compelling races for 2nd place and 4th place - and there is no advantage to tanking it and going into the "shit group".

in future seasons (post-transitional season), teams would simply play their 9 league opponents 18 times for a 162 game schedule. AL winner plays NL winner for the World Series. The 2 teams that finish 10th are relegated.

now, those 10 teams that were relegated during the transitional season will have formed a new minor league division. Those 10 teams play a 162 game schedule. Top team qualifies automatically for promotion to the league of their choice. Teams finishing 2 and 3 will play a best of 7 series for the other promotion spot - winner of that series goes to whatever league the first place team didnt pick.

am i crazy, or does this sound like a good plan?

by musial6 on Feb 9, 2007 10:46 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think I need a flow chart....
to figure that out.

Big problem is scheduling.  Baseball, and TV, and all the ancillary partners want to know where and win the games are going to be played.  Also, as a fan, that would be nice as well.  

by Brock20 on Feb 9, 2007 10:56 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The schedules would be set in advance
The only unknown would be the 2nd half of the transitional season.

How is this any different than the unknowns going into the postseason? For some games I didn't know until less than 24 hours ahead of time when the game started.

by musial6 on Feb 9, 2007 11:12 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I had this same idea...
last year, not quite as in depth as you though. I think it would be very interesting. I love Premiership football, and I love the way the league is run, however, i'm not sure it would work for baseball. Alot of people would be thoroughly peeved with removing the playoffs, and simply giving the title to the team in the higher division with the best record. You would have to include the tournaments that the UEFA has, to supplement the regular season.

Actually, that would be pretty awesome in it's own right, and give teams that don't normally make the playoffs a chance to play for a lesser title (not quite as big as winning the premier division, but still an accomplishment).

Throughout the regular season, have the tournament go on, randomly drawing teams against each other from the top and bottom leagues. Having them play a 3 game series, and the winner moves on to the next round.

Obviously, it's all just a pipe dream, but it would be cool to see.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Feb 9, 2007 11:08 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sounds like
it would be a very confusing system for the casual fan to keep up with.  Fans will also get really sick of seeing their team play the same 4 teams all the time in the first half.  I'm mostly a purist, so I'd be against anything like this, but they are interesting ideas.  

I do agree that the DH has to go and that interleague play should be done away with or at least minimized.  I would also grant home-field in the World Series to the team with the best regular season record, and extend the divisional round to seven games.

by Baseball addict on Feb 9, 2007 11:16 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's only one season
(I assume you are referring to my post)

the first half, second half thing is just for one season to move from the status quo to a situation where there'd be a 10 team AL and a 10 team NL.

The whole point of this is to bring relegation and promotion into the fold. This would make the season much more compelling since you'd have races as both ends of the standings (nobody wants to be the team relegated).

by musial6 on Feb 9, 2007 11:46 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i have to say
Solanus, for a first front page post, that was damn good, u have an interesting topic, one that should make for lots of discussion, the EPL is also an issue i have thought about lately, just because of bill simmons talking about getting that EPL package and enjoying it, i wish u had started this a month ago, just to add, u make a good addition to the already great squad we have at VEB
Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Feb 9, 2007 12:18 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Promotion/Relegation
Well if you're going to have promotion/relegation, why not just do it for the whole minor league system as well? If a low-A team finishes first move them up to high-A, etc. Fans of Quad Cities could dream of some day being in the major leagues :) This kind of thing actually happens occasionally in soccer, Fulham was bought by some rich dude and rose from being in the 3rd division in 1997 (actually the 4th level of English soccer) to the Premier League in 2001. Also see "The Miracle of Castel Di Sangro" by Joe McGinniss for a similar rags to riches story in the Italian League. Of course none of this will ever happen but it's fun to talk about.

by mikedallas23 on Feb 9, 2007 12:31 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Promoting AAA teams
I feel like the most natural way of implementing a promotion/relegation system in MLB is to promote and demote minor league teams to the bigs, and demote struggling major league teams to the minors.  The promotion/relegation system could work all the way up and down the ladder, and in the majors I would suggest two teams, per league, per season.  So last year, maybe the Royals and Rays are removed to AAA, and two teams from AAA move up.

Obviously there are tons of things that wouldn't work about this system, many of which involve people agreeing to potentially damaging financial circumstances.  However, what would it take to make this WORK?

As I see it:

  • you'd need to restructure and to some extent standardize the minor leagues.  AAA teams would have to be organized into equivalent "american" and "national" leagues in order to be assimilated when it was time to decide who gets promoted.  This wouldn't be too difficult, and since our original exercise called for changing the structure of MLB, I feel like this is an even easier step.
  • obviously, getting demoted means the end of the Rays franchise and probably the Royals too.  Fan interest can't get any lower, but they would probably both turn into the Expos if they had to play an entire season against teams like Memphis and Albuquerque.  Those teams would probably thrive, which would be good for the game as a whole, so maybe we're content to let that happen.
  • the major issue in any type of minor-league development is the relationship between minor league teams and their major league parents.  Conflicts of interest would abound, as the Cardinals and Redbirds might be in the thick of races for a division title, and suddenly the Cardinals call up three major prospects.  Or what if the Redbirds made it into the NL, and the Cardinals had a three-game set against them in the thick of a race against the Astros?  They could just "call up" their four best hitters from the Redbirds and guarantee themselves three or four wins.  Meanwhile, if the Astros play the Redbirds two weeks later, the Cardinals could "send down" Albert Pujols, or something, to screw with them.
So it obviously won't work, but it's fun to think about because with a major/minor league team reshuffling, there are some intuitive positives for the teams being promoted, and you don't have to tell sixteen or eight major league teams (current major league teams, that is) "hey, we're making you into the "2nd division""

Great thoughts all!

by ilovealbert on Feb 9, 2007 1:33 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The minor league teams
would not be affiliated with the major league squads. The NL & AL teams would have their own farm systems, much smaller than before. The minor leagues would be independent, able to aquire their own players and make a run at challenging the 2nd division of MLB. So if Memphis managed to ascend to the Premiership and was battling the Cardinals, there would be no conflict of interest.

Obviously, with so many minor league teams, it would be important to prevent owners from owning multiple teams, even if they were at disparate levels of competition.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Feb 9, 2007 1:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For you other Football (soccer) fans in the US....
What do you use to watch EPL/Other European league games? I'm thinking of ordering Setanta TV/ITVN, does anyone use it?
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Feb 9, 2007 1:44 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not Setanta
...but I ordered Fox Soccer Channel and I love it.  However, Setanta is better and I believe it has much more wide range of games.  (if you were following a specific team perchance.)

by jroman on Feb 9, 2007 3:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

on DISH Network...
... you can get Fox Soccer Channel (mostly Prem and UEFA games) and GOL TV (lotta La Liga, Serie A, and Bundesliga games) as part of the regular suscription package. i think it's part of the package for about $50/month that comes with 180 channels. that's what i have, and i love it.

by kindred on Feb 9, 2007 3:30 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Unfortunately...
I'm stuck with Charter cable for the time being. Awful awful awful. Which is why i'm going to subscribe to Setanta via ITVN (IP TV)
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Feb 9, 2007 3:59 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

actually
charter has several soccer channels in their sports tier, fox soccer being one of them.

by Birds on the Matt on Feb 9, 2007 5:07 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Setanta
I have Fox SC and GOL TV as part of my sports package on directtv.  I think Fox SC and Setanta pretty much split the EPL down the middle, so you'll double your games (and perhaps get the bigger ones, I think Setanta gets first choice) if you add Setanta.  It's an extra $12 a month,  but well worth it if you like soccer and particularly the EPL.  Gol TV has the other Euro leagues, so that's where I watch Barcelona, my other favorite besides Arsenal (who just announced a co-op deal with my local Colorado Rapids today -- I'm stoked!!).

by Perry on Feb 9, 2007 6:59 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Relegation.
I'd love to see MLB use a relegation system.  Minor league teams who are owned by the parent major league club would act as reserve teams.

Perfect system.  

Bench Juan Encarnacion!

by STLCardinalsFan on Feb 9, 2007 2:30 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

some creative destruction
i've thought about this often over the past few years. you touched on a lot of the positives, Solanus, but it would force all the those games between losing teams in the last month of the season - which are currently pretty meaningless - to have a lot of importance: teams won't want to get relegated.

some contraction might be necessary at first. also, i agree strongly with whoever said that the relegation system should be extended all the way down to A ball. a poor performing AAA team would be an AA team, etc. also, major league teams would no longer own minor league teams. the major league rosters would be expanded to 40 or 50 men, but there would be an "active roster" declared before each game of 25 men. the rest would be like "healthy scratches" in hockey or something, reserved for injuries and/or struggling players. perhaps exhibition games between teams' "B" teams go occur every now and then to keep guys sharp. other than that, holes in rosters would have to be filled via loans or transfer purchasing.

transfers between international leagues would also be permitted. so, teams in Japan could transfer players to America mid-season (and vice versa), until the transfer window closes. this could foster a greater opportunity for the game to reach an increased international audience.

more than likely, the large markets will usually keep the top-level teams. there will be a cast of roughly 10 teams that are always the ones on the brink of the major leagues and AAA levels. there is an incentive for teams to keep fighting.

also, every year there would be an FA Cup-style tournament, in which every team is entered into a massive tournament by way of random draws. in the first round, the Yankees might play Palm Beach... or they might draw the BoSox. after the initial draws, the tournament is played through (2-game series would probably suffice, if some sort of aggregate scoring system was designed to break ties).

for this system, leagues and divisions would be abolished (along with the DH), and i have no idea how the draft would work. there might have to be some sort of salary cap as well.

i'm not actually sure if i would prefer this type of system for MLB. but i love it for soccer.

by kindred on Feb 9, 2007 3:28 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I love the open draw in the FA Cup
Not sure if it would work in a baseball tournament though.

One thing I'd like to see MLB do is bring some logic back to the schedule. Has anyone else noticed how the number of games vs divisional opponents fluctuates from team to team from year to year? It wasn't THAT long ago that every team in the division played the same relative schedule. MLB has sacrificed schedule integrity in exchage for a little extra revenue.

In the EPL, everyone plays everyone twice (home and away). I'd like to see that kind of balance restored to baseball.

by musial6 on Feb 9, 2007 3:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I liked Costas' suggestion
That the season could be broken into 54 3-game series. This makes the assumption that you switch one NL team to the AL & play at least one interleague game each non-off day. Using that, play:
  • 3 series at home & 3 series away against 4 divisional opponents = 72 games
  • 1 series at home & 1 series away against 10 league opponents = 60 games
  • 1 series at home & 1 series away against 5 interleague opponents = 30 games
As far as having a 15 team league & playing interleague everyday, nobody cares if the Braves are playing the Blue Jays at the same time that the D-Backs face off against the Mariners. Other than the intrastate/intracity rivalry games (which you don't need to have every year), the matches have ceased to be "an event." Plus switching to 15 team leagues evens out the divisional format; no 4-team AL West, no 6-team NL Central.
Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Feb 9, 2007 5:21 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed
I remember hearing Costas on the radio lobbying for these changes years ago. The schedule has actually gotten worse since then.

In an era where MLB can hold 46,000 people hostage for over 2 hours just to prop up the ratings of FOX's rain delay programming, I'm not optimistic about schedule reform.

http://www.cardinal-nation.com/images/busch20061025/mDSCF5310.jpg

by musial6 on Feb 9, 2007 5:42 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Relegation Upheaval
As a big fan of English football, I would love to see relegation/promotion integrated into the MLB.  If nothing else, to bask in the joy of watching the Cubs get demoted.  That said, it could never happen -- simply far too much risk in investment for current owners.  But let's ignore that dose of reality.

The biggest challenges would seem to be the de-affiliation of the minor leagues, the abolishment of the draft, contraction, and the unbalanced schedule.  I doubt anybody is ready to stop having playoffs and the World Series, so let's keep that structure (top 8 teams), analogous to a Cup.

First off, all of the minor league teams would need to be sold and de-affiliated from their ML parent clubs.  Finding buyers would not be difficult, given the upside of the investment.  Obviously, constraints would need to be added to avoid co-ownership issues.

The draft would simply go away, and replaced by open market free agency for draft-eligible players.  Roster size constraints would keep the ML teams from buying up every prospect, and the development of prospects would provide an additional revenue stream for 'minor league' clubs.

Contraction and the unbalanced schedule would be coupled, since you would have to figure out a schedule where every team played the same schedule, home and away.  What a nightmare, considering you would need a minimum number of games per series to justify travel expenses.  Anyway, whatever number of teams makes that work is your Major League.  Then you contract downward at each level.

by jarious on Feb 9, 2007 8:58 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey, Solanus
not a bad debut when you get mentioned in The Hardball Times:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/tht-links-friday-edition/

Yessur.

by plh903 on Feb 9, 2007 11:50 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I will need
for someone to deflate my head, slowly.
Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Feb 11, 2007 11:25 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Speaking of THT...
If you scroll down this article, it mentions Bob Gibson as 4th best post-War hitting pitcher.

---I was surprised, frankly, to find out just how good a hitter Bob Gibson was. Did you know that in 1968, Gibson hit for almost as high an average (.170) as opposing batters hit off him (.184)? That fact is so impressive, it doesn't even require commentary.---

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/hitting-pitchers/

by RedbirdRay on Feb 11, 2007 2:09 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You would need a crapload of new owners
I've thought about something like this for years.  In order to get a workable system it might require just too much change to be acceptable.  For startes you would probably have to ditch the divisional system as it is now laid out (not a bad thing imo).  You would also probably have to have fewer teams in the top flight.

What I came up with is a system with 48 total teams.  24 American league and 24 National League teams.  You could divide the league teams easily into 2 divisions of 12 teams each.  Only 6 of said teams in each division would be in the Major league.

Now, you would have something like the following:

American League East:

Boston
NYY
Toronto
Baltimore
Tampa
Cleveland
Detroit
ChicagoW

American League West:

Minnesota
KC
Oakland
LAA of A (STILL so stupid)
Texas
Seattle

Leaving room for 10 new teams.

National League East:

Washington
NYM
Philadelphia
Florida
Altanta
Pittsburgh
Cincinnati
Chicago
St. Louis
Milwaukee

National League West:

Houston
San Diego
San Fran
LA
Colorado
Arizona

Leaving 8 new teams.

I've divided teams up the way I did because I just dont see the Cubs/Cards being split up division wise.  I also dont see the White Sox agreeing to go out west again.  Of course, as it is split up here four of the present day teams put into this fictional NL East would NOT be in the majors once Promotion/Relegation was implemented.

The other question is, are there the baseball markets (and stadiums) to add 18 teams?  I tend to doubt it.

Now, you could propose a smaller league, say of only 20 teams...but could you really get 12 current teams to accept dropping into a lower division?  Probably not.

It would make for FANTASTIC baseball.  But I cant see owners going along with it.

(On a side note I think it would be PERFECT for the NHL...but they would never understand why.)

by Rich Horton on Feb 11, 2007 6:05 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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