it don't add up
for a slow time of year, we've got a lot going on. first of all, i posted community projection threads for chris duncan and adam wainwright over on the diary bar. head on over and cast your ballots. second item: cardinal70 has created a google page to track the all-time cardinal tournament; stats, brackets, standings, etc. my thanks to cardinal70 for putting that together; for those of you following the tourney, i'm hoping to write up a couple more series and post 'em this afternoon.
readings: matt leach posted an interesting item on preston wilson; definitely worth your consideration. and over at The Book blog, tangotiger makes some cocktail-napkin calculations to derive an average cost for a family of 4 to attend a game at busch III. the "official" estimate is north of $200; tangotiger thinks a family should comfortably be able to enjoy an evening at the ballpark for about $110. discuss.
so much for the preliminaries. our feature presentation this morning: Baseball Prospectus posted its 2007 depth charts on tuesday. the depth charts are the same thing as the team PECOTA projection i compiled last month; BP guesstimates playing time for each player within his team context, prorates the PECOTA numbers accordingly, derives team totals for runs scored and runs allowed, and projects a pythagorean w-l. because the cardinals are the reigning world champs, their page is available for free; here's the link.
i'll comment on the st louis figures in just a moment. but first, here are the nl central standings as projected by this exercise:
| W | L | GB | RS | RA | |||
| chicago | 85 | 77 | -- | 828 | 789 | ||
| milwaukee | 84 | 78 | 1 | 781 | 748 | ||
| st louis | 81 | 81 | 4 | 730 | 734 | ||
| houston | 79 | 83 | 6 | 761 | 783 | ||
| pittsburgh | 77 | 85 | 8 | 751 | 795 | ||
| cincinnati | 71 | 91 | 14 | 745 | 841 |
you'll note that the cardinal pitching staff projects to be the best in the division. in fact, PECOTA thinks the staff will be the 2d-best in the entire national league, behind only the padres (who are forecast to allow 6 fewer runs). you'll also note that the offense projects to be the division's worst --- and, symmetrically enough, PECOTA rates the offense as the nl's 2d worst, ahead only of the soriano-less washington nationals.
i don't know that i'm buying either one of those projections (although some of you may recall that an early CHONE-based simulation had the cards with the fewest runs allowed in baseball), but of the two, the projection of the offense is by far the more suspect. let's begin by comparing the results of my "depth chart" exercise with BP's numbers:
| RS | RA | |
|---|---|---|
| VEB | 788 | 737 |
| BP | 730 | 734 |
the two projections are nearly identical in the runs-allowed department, but 58 runs apart in the scoring department; clank. how do we explain the discrepancy? i immediately fact-checked, player by player, the avg / obp / slg figures in my spreadsheet against the numbers in BP's depth chart; they checked out. likewise, the ballplayers in BP's scenario are identical to mine, with one exception: tyler greene didn't appear in mine (and his appearance in BP's chart immediately raises a red flag; greene won't sniff the majors this year, not even in september). however, i did have a generic replacement-player line, into which category greene would surely fall. so there's really no difference in terms of data; we're crunching the same numbers for the same players, yet still arriving at dissimilar outcomes.
the next logical step was to check my playing-time assumptions against BP's. here we find considerable divergence. this table presents the plate appearances i assigned to each player in my scenario, vs the PAs assigned by BP, with major differences highlighted:
| VEB | BP | VEB | BP | VEB | BP | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| pujols | 659 | 689 | kennedy | 479 | 520 | miles | 287 | 375 | ||
| rolen | 563 | 565 | duncan | 456 | 359 | taguchi | 215 | 365 | ||
| edmonds | 466 | 448 | molina | 429 | 476 | wilson | 215 | 331 | ||
| eckstein | 602 | 532 | spiezio | 310 | 238 | j-rod | 200 | 221 | ||
| en'cion | 560 | 469 | bennett | 188 | 158 |
here's how i'd break these down. the encarnacion and wilson discrepancies cancel each other out. the two players' projected offense is so similar that their at-bats are pretty much interchangeable in this exercise; i've got the two players combining for 775 plate appearances, and BP has them combining for 800. so that's a wash. the taguchi discrepancy, by contrast, appears to be a meaningful one: BP is giving him about 70 extra at-bats that i had assigned to spiezio, and another 70 or so that i had assigned to duncan. in other words, BP sees the inferior hitter taking significant playing time away from two superior hitters. maybe that explains part of the discount. and another part is surely aaron miles' enlarged role per BP; miles has one of the worst PECOTA projections in mlb this year (.237 / .281 / .307). BP has him taking about 70 plate appearances away from david eckstein, who is projected to get only 532 PA --- an unreasonably low figure. eckstein last year had 552 plate appearances --- and he missed six weeks with a strained oblique and other injuries. the year before that he had 699 plate appearances; in 2004, 636 plate appearances. his career low in PA came in 2003, when he only came to the plate 517 times. if eckstein hits my projection of 600 PA (which is still low for him) and the at-bats come out of the anemic miles' budget, that helps the offense.
even though i disagree with BP's playing-time assumptions, i accepted them for the sake of inquiry and plugged those numbers straight in to my spreadsheet. but after adjusting the projections per BP's playing-time assumptions, i still came up with a team total of 780 runs scored --- 50 runs higher than BP's bottom line. the discrepant playing-time assumptions only explain away 8 of the 58 runs by which my bottom line differs from BP's. something's still not adding up.
tenacious seeker of truth that i am, i kept probing. i compared BP's team totals for avg / obp / slg to the totals i derived using BP's playing-time assumptions:
| avg | obp | slg | |
|---|---|---|---|
| VEB | .264 | .337 | .419 |
| BP | .261 | .331 | .416 |
ok . . . . . so now what? i fact-checked BP against itself. i took their team totals and multiplied them by standard 162-game totals of 5550 at-bats / 6200 plate appearances. this yields team totals of 2052 baserunners (ie, 6200 PA x .331 obp) and 2309 total bases (5550 AB x .416 slg). with those numbers, we can make simple estimates of runs created and base runs. the totals:
| RC | BR | |
|---|---|---|
| BP adj | 765 | 772 |
at this point, i'm at a loss; even assuming a team line of .261 / .331 / .416, i don't see how BP derives its estimate of 730 runs. if anybody can explain it to me, i'm all ears.
i don't want to turn this into a bash-BP thread; they're very smart guys, much smarter'n me. but i'm usually smart enough to follow them; in this case, i can't. based on their own numbers, i think the cardinals' projected runs-scored total should be no worse than 765. let's now plug that back in to the projected standings table that we began with:
| W | L | GB | RS | RA | |||
| chicago | 85 | 77 | -- | 828 | 789 | ||
| milwaukee | 84 | 78 | 1 | 781 | 748 | ||
| st louis | 84 | 78 | 1 | 765 | 734 | ||
| houston | 79 | 83 | 6 | 761 | 783 | ||
| pittsburgh | 77 | 85 | 8 | 751 | 795 | ||
| cincinnati | 71 | 91 | 14 | 745 | 841 |
now that projection --- a battle among evenly matched stl, chi, and mil --- i can buy into. that i can believe. if anything, i'm surprised that milwaukee isn't viewed as the favorite. now, things might shake out exactly as BP projects, with the cards finishing at .500 and trailing both chicago and milwaukee. there's a significant chance that could happen. but i don't think, as BP's number-crunching suggests, that the cards are heading into the season with a significantly worse team than chicago.
i'll send an e-mail to nate silver at BP and see if he can explain the numerical discrepancies to me.
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ooofff!
I wouldn't mind seeing a good three team battle coming down the stretch like the adjusted line shows (easy to say now, ask me again in September).
Sorry...
Yes, the Cubbies spent lots of money in the off-season, and Sori should improve them offensively... but Jason Marquis was worse than "replacement-level" a season ago. He's been unable to improve working with either Leo Mazzone or Dave Duncan... and now, Larry Freakin' Rothschild is gonna be the guy to get the "most" outta Bi-Polar Betty? Sure, "youneverknow," but I don't see that happening.
I think Milwaukee is a much more dangerous team than the Cubs... even with the Brew Crew's own defensive deficiencies in the infield.
If the Cardinals' replacement pitchers out-perform last year's Marquis/Ponson/Weaver (regular season) production (which they should), the Birds will win much more than 83 games during the regular season. It's conceivable that someone will win more games than the Redbirds, and knock them off their Central Division perch... but I'll have to see it to beleive it!
On the other hand
I'm curious to see him play - and that curiosity will be easy to satisfy since I live in Chicagoland. I'd like to see his arm; that could help keep baserunners in check.
Regarding Soriano
by brock on Feb 22, 2007 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
I hear you but I said the same thing
Would you rather have Dunc or Soriano?
by brock on Feb 22, 2007 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Math
How did the Cardinals' offense get so bad all of a sudden? Jesus. See, this is why I've been arguing with anyone and everyone I can get hold of that the Birds need to find some sort of upgrade at SS. All I get is how popular Eck is, how much he hustles, "he's a World Series MVP!". Can no one else see this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!
I'm trying not to harp on this too much, as I do admire what Eckstein does. But the guy, championship makeup or no, does not make this team better over the next even two years. Please, Walt, don't extend him. For the love of God. And Yadi, too. Consider this your warning. I'm very close to turning on you too. I don't care how many runners you throw out, you can't even out the ledger for the five hundred outs you're making per year.
This is kinda off
And an upgrade at SS is not going to make the offense dynamic again. An upgrade at LF, RF and C would go a long way.
by ryanisforever on Feb 22, 2007 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
Who were you watching?
by Yadier on Feb 22, 2007 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
I could live
I don't want them to trade Anderson for no reason,
I don't dislike David Eckstein; I just agree with the baron that an Eck extension will be risky at best, pandering and sentimental at worst.
"Ever-improving"
And Molina's awful bat will always outweight what his glove does. Yes, he's a very good defensive catcher who takes away the threat of a running game.
His VORP was pushing -20 this season. The Cardinals could've been an 85-win team MINUS Molina! He's not going to be any better than a .240 hitter, because his bat speed is incredibly slow and every double that he hits has to be hit very hard since he's too damn heavy to run the bases.
The Cardinals continuing on with Molina is just like the Cubs continuing on with Neifi Perez. "Well, he's a defensive whiz, so that really makes up for the fact that he's a putrid hitter."
by ryanisforever on Feb 22, 2007 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
I hear what you're saying
But watching him in the post-season, after he sat down with Jose O' and started going opposite field every opportunity, I really do think he can be a .260 hitter. Average at best, yes, but the Catcher is the one spot I (personally) value D over O.
Plus, he is 24 -- and he can't get any worse, thus, I think he should be labled as "improving."
I hope you're right,
It amazes me that an organization that employed Ted Simmons for so many years has essentially given up on the idea of a catcher who contributes with the bat. It's like they won't even try to upgrade the offense behind the plate.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 22, 2007 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
I support the cult of Yadi
Well, you'd better not
And if you're suggesting that you'd pass on having Mike Piazza on your team ... well, OK, current Mike Piazza, yes, but for a young Mike Piazza I'd happily tolerate all the mediocre catching he could provide.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 22, 2007 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Deal:
Yet I wonder whether it was just my imagination, or whether I detected a new, open batting stance from Yadi in the playoffs. I don't have any images in front of me. And I listen to a lot more games than I see. But in the postseason, it seemed to me that, all of the sudden, Yadi was not only hitting uncharacteristically well, but he was also striking a comfortable, bossy 2005 Ensberg pose, only less dweeb-like and brittle than the once-scary third baseman. Factor in that the best hitter in the game provides Yadi's hitting instruction, and I'm not prepared to dictate his future.
And of course, yes, I take the respective ages of Yadi and Piazza into account.
Yadi playoffs
2005 - 3/13 1R 3RBI
2006 - 4/13 1R 1RBI
NLCS:
- - 7/22 1R 3 2Bs 0RBI
- - 8/22 2R 1 2Bs 1HR 6RBI
by Hardcore Legend on Feb 22, 2007 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Simple mathematics
I've been out of school for a little while, but ...
Then again
Obviously, there will be a few additional players that they have not included in these projections. (The rotation is short 4 starts, although they've already accounted for basically 99.5% of the innings.) But they need to account for those gaps when they start talking about the teams.
Nevermind the out of order lineup that would have Aaron Miles racking up nearly 400 PA in the top two spots in the order - please. Not even Tony LaRussa would be that enamored with the little munchkin.
Little munchkins
The 2nd best staff in baseball?
team vs. league
Possibilities
Were your pitcher's hitting stats different?
by Jonathan23 on Feb 22, 2007 10:49 AM EST reply actions
reasonable possibilities
both RC and base runs take unearned runs for granted. that is, both models generate accurate estimates of overall runs scored, even though neither one factors in errors ---- which, obviously, are a component in run-scoring.
re the pitcher hitting --- my assumptions were slightly different from BP's, but not significantly. i was able to deduce that BP assumed roughly 350 pitcher PA at a .167 on-base pct, which is very close to what i assumed. when i adjusted my model to match theirs, it didn't even alter the bottom line by a full run.
"i'll send an e-mail to nate silver"
I've emailed him
First time printer...
On to the substance, your numbers support what I've been saying. Third place, slightly better than .500. I'm hard on the Cardinals, harder than I probably need be. But, I think I need to balance out the total homer aspect that permemates sometimes in any group discussion like these. To put into more math terms, I need to kick the curve back towards being a bell.
Folks, the Cubs, on paper, are better than last year. Now, put the shitload of money they paid out aside, let's talk about the upside they have. Soriano, DeRosa, a healthy D-Lee are all good enough to improve them substantially. Moving Dempster off the hook and putting Howry into close will probably add another couple wins. We haven't even gotten to the big questions marks of the MRI duo and their health or the development of Pie and Patterson.
I see a lot of upside locks and a handful of potential breaks that they could get, more than anyone else in the Central. We have ours as well, don't get me wrong, but I like the Cubs chances of upside better.
Cubs
And I wonder how many of those teams featured a starter with an ERA the previous year of roughly 6.00 or more. If Piniella adds Marshall and/or Guzman to the rotation, I'd narrow the search to those last-to-first-place teams that gave two or three-fifths of their starts to pitchers with such ERAs.
I prefer the Cards' chances of improving their record by a few games to the Cubs' of improving by more than 20.
Yeah
by brock on Feb 22, 2007 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
You're right that they can be dangerous
With Marquis and a less than perfectly healthy #2 in Mulder, the Cards dropped nearly 20 wins after averaging over 102 the previous two years. I doubt that the Cubs can add over 20 wins with essentially the same uncertainties in the middle of their rotation in Marquis and Prior.
I don't know
As I said, the Cubs frighten me; they fascinate me as well--recall Marlow's phrase from Conrad's Heart of Darkness , "the fascination of abomination." I don't think they need to make up 20 wins; despite their actual record, I would pin them as about a 73 win ballcub last year. I think they need to be about a dozen wins better this year, and I think they are there if they get an average year out of the club. If they fall apart again, 70 wins; if they roll, 96 wins.
As you can see, this is all very scientific.
The Horror.
by brock on Feb 22, 2007 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
An equally scientific assertion,
The Cubs tend to look best in the offseason.
Well,
The Tigers weren't last in 2005, but they did experience a 24 game swing, 20 per Pythag, en route to their WS appearance last year.
Fair enough
You're exactly right: the Cubs need to pull a Detroit---with Marquis, Lily, and Hill instead of Bonderman, Robertson, and Verlander. Maybe Girardi could have done what Leyland did last year, but I doubt that Piniella can.
No, no.
by brock on Feb 22, 2007 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Fair enough
In other words, I shared your fears when I heard about the Piniella and Soriano signings. But that Marquis deal was the best news that I heard all offseason. They may have options, but I'd take Carp, Reyes, and Wainwright over Zambrano, Marquis, and Lily; Pujols and Rolen over Lee and Ramirez; LaRussa and Duncan over Piniella and Rothschild; the momentum of a World Series win over that of a mortgaged future.
Putting the crapshoot
That is to say, shouldn't the baselines be league-adjusted already? Arbitrarily picking a number, let's say that the Tigers would have had 84 Pythag wins in the 2005 version of the NLC, wouldn't they have increased in the same incremental fashion to 104 wins in the NL Central last year?
The math isn't sound, and I haven't really thought about this, but it seems like a 20 game improvement is just as likely, considering the relative difficulties are already adjusted for. Ignoring a ton of stuff, like fluctuations year-to-year within the league, but it seems like my general premise is sound, to me anyway (no shit! right?). Anyhow, I don't know that it is a much tougher task, they were already that much better in 2005. Meh, I don't know.
I just had a case study whoop my ass, who knows what I am even talking about.
Last place to first place
Worst to First in both Leagues.
by whatapartier on Feb 22, 2007 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Well done; thanks
It's not always about numbers...
I'll accept PW on the team for this reason
Funny
Here's to the Cards beating the projection. I look forward to getting my souvenier ring!!!
Pride runs deep
Yes, we have issues in the rotation. Yes, we have holes offensively (RF, LF, C). But I can't shake the feeling that, collectively, this team has listened to all the '83-win team as World Champs is crap' bashing and is hungry to prove last year's final result wasn't luck, or a fluke, or due to a favorable playoff schedule, or Tiger fielding woes. Who doesn't think AP is using that as motivation right now?
This team won't be a 100-win juggernaut. But I expect its final win total will be closer to 90 wins than 83.
Self-promotion: I'm posting a daily (M-F) trivia question over at www.perfectknight.blogspot.com throughout the season. Check it out!
by TantoVanLanstrum on Feb 22, 2007 12:34 PM EST reply actions
About even
So essentially it is going to, as it usually does, come down to injuries. And the Cardinals are very susceptible to injuries this year. The first and most obvious is a history of injuries with two key players, Rolen and Edmonds. Even Pujols and Eckstein missed significant time last year and all of the core players are one year older as we know. Add to that top heavy core (Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds), a thin bottom with barely above replacement level bench providers and the team is really one wet batters box ankle twist away from catastrophe.
So yes, if all three teams avoided a major injury to a very important star, it would probably come down to a very tight September, but at this point, I don't think anyone should be upset that the Cardinals are projected to finish a couple games out and end up in third place. Injury risk is a factor in projections but it does not use the fluke season ending injury as the rule.
The Cubs will probably be the Cubs and either all end up on the DL or at the very least all the players have down seasons. I mean they're the fraggin' Cubs.
To me, the team that sits the best from the projections is the Brew Crew whose youth makes them less susceptible to injury or other physical breakdown. Assume an even amount of starting lineup and pitching injuries and the Brewers are better primed to replace with a much better farm system to perform in the given PAs.
In other words, all things being equal, any of the three teams can win and projections are just that. For the Cardinals to have the best chance, they must avoid injury, or have another rookie campaign like 2001, and I do not see that happening.
by sherwood on Feb 22, 2007 12:47 PM EST reply actions
I'm curious
Clearly even going into the season the 2004 team was superior offensively, given the relative youth of Rolen and Edmonds, the presence of Renteria vs. Eckstein, and the juggernaut o'lumber behind the plate that was Matheny. Still, I wonder if PECOTA was missing something early in '04 that they are missing early in '07
Side note-I would love to see a community-wide Molina projection.
Molina really doesn't
Catchers have to be superior defensively or the team suffers. Neifi won one Gold Glove (in 2000), but is only a shade better than league average as a fielder careerwise. Molina is rated the No. 1 defensive catcher in the league, and will certainly win at least one Gold Glove in the next few years--probably a string of them.
Neifi is a better hitter, but that isn't the point you made.
#s
The reason that the team total doesn't quite add up to the individual projections is as follows. Until we learn more about how to forecast injuries, we make slightly optimistic assumptions about playing time for purposes of the pre-season depth charts, rather than trying to guess at who is going to be hurt.
This might seem trivial, but even fudging on playing time by 5% or something introduces some "inflation" into the system. The average team ends up with 84-85 wins instead of 81, and a run differential of +30 or 40 runs. So we have to shave a little bit off the team totals to make them add up right. This affects all teams equally, not just the Cards.
Put differently, if the Cardinals' hitters avoid major injuries (a few bumps and bruises are ok) and play exactly in accordance with the playing time estimates embodied in our depth charts, then the team RS projection might well be closer to the higher estimate (765 runs). In practice, they will probably not stay that healthy. Scott Rolen misses two months, Albert Pujols spends three weeks on the disabled list ... boom, that's 30 runs right there.
by Nate Silver on Feb 22, 2007 11:29 PM EST reply actions



















