tourney time
gads; we're still nearly a month away from the first spring training game, and nearly two months away from Opening Day. that's too long to wait for another box score.
for which reason, i'm thinking of conducting a baseball tournament over the next few weeks. it'd be a 24-team field, and each team would be made up of one great cardinal player. that's right, one player --- 9 times over. to show you what i mean, this might be the starting lineup for the Enos Slaughters:
- slaughter 1953
- slaughter 1948
- slaughter 1942
- slaughter 1949
- slaughter 1940
- slaughter 1941
- slaughter 1939
- slaughter 1946
- slaughter 1952
before i go on, i gotta know --- am i the only person who'd be amused by this exercise? if so, i won't inflict it on the rest of you; speak up in the comments if you'd rather be spared. assuming that at least some of you would be interested, here's how i would propose to set up the tournament field --- subject to suggestions and modifications from the community.
first question: why 24 teams? couple reasons. there's the simple matter of timing: if we create a full 64-team bracket a la march madness, the tournament will drag on for weeks and weeks; i'll lose interest, and you probably will too. more to the point, i'm think the tournament should only be open to players who spent most or all of their careers with st louis. gregg jefferies and dick allen each had one incredible season for the cards, but neither wore the birds-on-bat for enough years to field an entire 9-man team. if we limit the field to players who logged 9 years (or almost 9) with the franchise, there aren't enough decent candidates to go beyond a 24-team field.
but here's another consideration: if we enforce a strict 9-years-with-the-franchise minimum, then some of the franchise's best players --- including edmonds and pujols --- are excluded. but if we take pujols' 6 years with the franchise and pair them with, say, jack clark's 3 cardinal seasons, we have a full 9-man team --- a damn good one. insofar as the absence of jed and pu would take a lot of the fun out of this exercise, i think we have to flex the 9-year rule as necessary. if you strongly disagree, state your objections in the comments.
i also think the field should have representatives from every position on the field. otherwise, we'll just end up with a bunch of outfielders and first basemen, plus a few infielders (boyer, hornsby, frisch) and one catcher (ted simmons). if we start with 2 players at 8 positions, that gives us 16 "automatic bids," with 8 at-large bids remaining to round out the field.
here's who i'd propose for the automatic bids:
| simmons | c | mccarver |
| pujols (6) clark (3) |
1b | mize (6) mcgwire (3) |
| hornsby | 2b | frisch |
| boyer | 3b | kurowski (5) rolen (4) |
| ozzie | ss | renteria (6) groat (3) |
| musial | lf | brock |
| lankford | cf | edmonds (7) moon (2) |
| slaughter | rf | medwick (7) blades (2) |
i nominate the above based on the following factors: years with the franchise; hitting ability; and association with championship teams. the ancillary players (ie, wally moon, ray blades, dick groat et al) were great hitters who clearly were not candidates for at-large bids, based on limited service time. these 16 teams include four players from the 1920s-30s, five from the 1940s-50s, five from the 1960s-70s, four from the 1980s-90s, and four from the current decade.
i'll entertain challenges to this list in the comments thread; if you think there's a more deserving player for one of these slots, make the case below. for now i'll proceed with these 16 teams, with the understanding that they are subject to change. the primary candidates for at-large bids to round out this field would then seem to include:
| willie mcgee | jim bottomley | red schoendienst |
| chick hafey | joe torre | bill white |
| terry moore | keith hernandez | pepper martin |
| tip o'neill | curt flood | george hendrick |
| garry templeton | vince coleman |
most of the guys on this list fall short of 9 full years with the franchise and thus would need to add a partner to round out the lineup. a number of prominent longtime cardinals aren't listed here for a simple reason: they were terrible hitters. julian javier ranks 11th on the franchise list for games played and is the all-time franchise leader for games played at 2b --- but he only topped .700 in OPS twice in his career. the same goes for marty marion, who ranks 13th all-time in games and won an mvp award and 3 world titles in his 11 years with the cards. ken reitz, tom herr, del rice, tom pagnozzi, dal maxvill --- all rank in the franchise top 5 in games played at their respective positions, but what would be the point of entering them in this tournament? they'd be seeded low and get swept in the opening round by slaughter or lankford or simmons. waste of a bid.
largely for the same reason, the deadball era (ie, pre-1920) is nearly invisible here. in those low-scoring days, an .850 OPS might make you the mvp --- and the cardinal franchise didn't have many mvp candidates back then. nor did it have many long-term players. i've listed one deadball-days cardinal, tip o'neill, in the table of at-large possibilities; a few others (jesse burkett, ed konetchy) might make a suitable roster filler. but we've only got 8 bids to hand out, and the competition is tight; guys like charlie comiskey and miller huggins and patsy donovan just don't measure up.
i originally intended to post a poll listing all the at-large candidates, and then allowing everybody to vote for up to 8 players. but my software only allows me to list 10 options in the poll; i can't figure out how to increase that to 15. so let's make a few common-sense decisions. bottomley and hafey are simply too good as hitters to be excluded; they're in. o'neill is our lone deadball-era guy, so he's in as well. schoendienst ranks among the franchise's all-time top 10 in games, at-bats, hits, and runs. if i grant each of those 4 guys a provisional bid, that leaves 4 remaining slots and 10 candidates. so that'll be the poll. vote for up to 4 guys, and use the comments thread below to cast a write-in vote for any player who's not listed in the poll.
i'll leave the poll up through the weekend and unveil the field next week --- or, if you all tell me you're not even interested, i'll forget the whole exercise.
Update [2007-2-2 9:10:13 by lboros]: ok --- i can't seem to activate the mechanism that allows you to vote for multiple players in the poll. so we'll have to do it manually ---- post a comment listing your top at-large bids. let's go ahead and make it your top 8 --- i still think bottomley, hafey, o'neill, and schoendienst should get in, but since we're no longer bound by the limitations of the (@#!$%$!#$) poll utility, i'll revert to the original idea and let everybody vote for 8 at-larges. i'll just tally 'em up by hand.
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103
comments
Comments
Pujols and Jed
Fun fun fun!
by itsalemmon1019 on Feb 2, 2007 8:57 AM EST 0 recs
i thought about doing it that way
by lboros on
Feb 2, 2007 9:50 AM EST
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Sounds like fun
- How is the pitching deternimed? Is it a standard league average pitcher, or does Bob Forsch make up everyone's staff.
- Will people play every position? Will there be 9 Ray Lankford's in the field and will he play short like Ray really would? Taking out defense would hurt Ozzie's game, but I hate to think about how many bases Brock would steal with Clark as the catcher.
Although I don't think Coleman deserves to be on the list as a batter, a matchup with Brock would be interesting.
by Stanfan6 on Feb 2, 2007 9:28 AM EST 0 recs
re fielding and pitching
i considered making all the guys play defense, but that means every team will have horrible players at at least one of the three key defensive positions (catcher, ss, and 2b) --- and most teams will have horrible players at all 3 positions. it would make for some bizarre outcomes.
the pitcher will be a generic non-factor, so each player's hitting stats will speak for themselves.
by lboros on
Feb 2, 2007 9:43 AM EST
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"...making all the guys play defense"
by Jonathan23 on
Feb 2, 2007 9:49 AM EST
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Actually
Hornsby played evry infeild spot except 1st as a regular at some point in his career. However he was bad at moving back on pop-up and presumably he would have been only an average OFer.
Frisch, Schoendist and Smith all had the ability to play any position well, though I think Smith may be limited by his arm. Given their relative offensive abilities, I'd give a big advantage to the Fordam Flash.
by Zubin on
Feb 2, 2007 10:15 AM EST
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Could you
What I mean is have all of Ozzie's team be Ex while Mac would be Av. If you say that giving rating would cause two months worth of complaining and isn't worth it...I could see that. It's just a shame that Ozzie losses what makes him great.
You could buy every year of DMB past seasons and use their ratings and with the money left over pay off the national debt.
by Harknights on
Feb 2, 2007 10:27 AM EST
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I agree with this to a point
I think bad fielders should be rated as such and excellent fielders should as well.
by houstoncardinal on
Feb 2, 2007 12:43 PM EST
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Ozzie didn't have the arm,
by Zubin on
Feb 2, 2007 2:25 PM EST
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Definitely better than watching the calendar
Here is my list:
McGee, Schoendienst, O'Neil, Flood, Coleman, Hernandez, Torre, Martin.
by JBagKY on Feb 2, 2007 9:36 AM EST 0 recs
My Votes:
One other comment. I see you have Joe Medwick paired up with someone to fill out 9 seasons. While I know Joe's first and last seasons with St. Louis were not full season by any means, I would love to see Joe Medwick without being paired up. Could you pro-rate his last too seasons.
by JMedwick on Feb 2, 2007 10:09 AM EST 0 recs
My vote...
Larry,
My only concern with this is that you are giving Mize a huge advantage giving him McGwire's 3 years. If you compare Big Mac's 3 years vs. Jack Clark, you're really giving Pujols a disadvantage (especially with Clark's injured 1986). I'm not sure Jack's 2 full seasons is good enough to be on this list.
by MRCARD on Feb 2, 2007 10:11 AM EST 0 recs
Agreed
by musial6 on
Feb 2, 2007 10:17 AM EST
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Mac
Ripper Collins,
Ed Konetchy,
Joe Cunninham
Given their relevance, I'd take Ripper over Mac.
by Zubin on
Feb 2, 2007 10:49 AM EST
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you guys make a good case
by lboros on
Feb 2, 2007 10:56 AM EST
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His good seasons are too valuable
How can you make an exception for Edmonds and not Mcgwire?
(I think i should throw in a snide comment about "moral police" or something, too)
by Jonathan23 on
Feb 2, 2007 11:24 AM EST
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Big Mac
(He's had a tough enough year as it is without us bouncing him out of VEB!)
by brdsnbt on
Feb 2, 2007 11:42 AM EST
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it's crazy to leave mcgwire out.
far too memorable to leave out of the tournament.
ps. this seems like the greatest thing ever.
by dagniel on
Feb 2, 2007 12:05 PM EST
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I remember the McGwire era
Realize, that we were manipulated by MLB. Nothing gets national attention like a HR race to break the single season record. While it was cool at the time, we've cheated the future generations because we're never going to have anything like 1927/1961/1998 again now that the bar has been artificially set so high.
Please keep McGwire's juiced numbers out of this exercise.
by musial6 on
Feb 2, 2007 1:52 PM EST
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yea
by eglasier on
Feb 2, 2007 1:58 PM EST
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maybe I'm spoiled by the recent success...
by musial6 on
Feb 2, 2007 2:34 PM EST
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real baseball?
and i don't understand the standpoint from which you are saying we've been 'cheated.' are we forever cheated because of 1968? or is that just the way that baseball is - it has different eras. hard to determine 'bad' and 'good,' i'd say.
by dagniel on
Feb 2, 2007 3:22 PM EST
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Let me clarify
Ripken was indeed a sideshow, but there was something transcendant about Ripken's streak - in the modern era of selfish millionaire players, and in the wake of a cancelled World Series due to money grubbing by the players/owners - here's a guy who went to work every day and did his job like the rest of us bums.
Back to McGwire - We have been cheated because we will never again have a great home run race like we did in '61 and '98 - and if someone does break the record, everyone will assume that person was juicing too. Our children will never be able to experience what we experienced in 1998. That's kind of depressing don't you think?
The HR record was sacred. It was different than every other record (including the modern-era ERA record) because of the ties to Babe Ruth, and the chase of '61. That's why 62 was such a big deal - and why I personally feel like I've been cheated out of the next great HR race.
by musial6 on
Feb 2, 2007 3:45 PM EST
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I'd say
by SleepyCA on
Feb 2, 2007 3:50 PM EST
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could happen...
Last May a buddy of mine emailed me, "I pray that he somehow finds a way to beat *73 this year."
I replied, "that would be poetic justice for sure, but more than anything, I'd like to see the Cardinals win the World Series by beating the Giants, Mets, and Red Sox."
It didn't turn out quite as I'd envisioned, but I'll take it!
by musial6 on
Feb 2, 2007 4:32 PM EST
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Playoffs
by sherwood on
Feb 2, 2007 12:19 PM EST
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McGwire in the postseason
by wildman on
Feb 2, 2007 12:31 PM EST
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Correct
by sherwood on
Feb 2, 2007 1:19 PM EST
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My point
I am no McGwire defender, but saying the 97-99 Redbirds didn't make the playoffs was somehow his responsibility isn't accurate IMHO. The argument there starts with the lack of pitching - and any lack of run support was not McGwire's fault.
by wildman on
Feb 2, 2007 2:21 PM EST
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Right
by sherwood on
Feb 2, 2007 4:59 PM EST
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OK
by wildman on
Feb 2, 2007 10:31 PM EST
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good points wildman
i think it's legitimate to object on the grounds that those seasons distort the competition and should be excluded. i'm not necessarily there yet; but it's a serious argument.
but there's certainly no objection to be raised on the grounds of "methodology."
by lboros on
Feb 2, 2007 11:33 PM EST
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I'm not McGwire apologist
By the time we got to the playoffs in 2000, McGwire was nursing a bad knee and really couldn't do anything more than pinch-hit.
by musial6 on
Feb 2, 2007 1:59 PM EST
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Big Mac has every right
by GForce9 on
Feb 2, 2007 1:13 PM EST
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I'm sorry
McGwire may have put baseball back on the map around the country, but here in St. Louis, baseball was brought back by the 1996 team. Ozzie's last season. The return of 51. Clutch Brian Jordan.
Baseball was alive and well in St. Louis before McGwire arrived.
Now outside of the cities that had pennant races right after the strike, McGwire did a lot to put baseball back on the map - but what does that really mean? It means additional TV revenue, higher player salaries, higher ticket prices leaguewide and an increase in the corporate influence on the sport in general.
These developments are not good for the regular fans who were already into the sport before McGwire's juiced ass started breaking records.
by musial6 on
Feb 2, 2007 2:19 PM EST
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I disagree
by houstoncardinal on
Feb 2, 2007 3:13 PM EST
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I disagree...
by Big Rev on
Feb 2, 2007 2:13 PM EST
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Random people in Wal-Mart?
Call me a snob, but that's how I feel.
MLB has made lots of money with this dumbed down "give the fans more homeruns because that's what they want" approach, and it has hurt the game itself. I'll take Whiteyball over Juice-ball every day of the week and twice on sunday.
by musial6 on
Feb 2, 2007 2:26 PM EST
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Did you read who I was replying to, musial6?
by Big Rev on
Feb 2, 2007 5:58 PM EST
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Snob, not slob...my mistake.
by Big Rev on
Feb 2, 2007 5:58 PM EST
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Do it! (Please.)
McGee
Red
Bottomley
Hernandez
O'Neill
Flood
Coleman
Hafey
by PhatAlbert on Feb 2, 2007 10:15 AM EST 0 recs
A vote for Willie McGee is a vote for America!
by Alxfritz on Feb 2, 2007 10:15 AM EST 0 recs
Tip O'Neil and Bob Caruthers
How about pairing Tip O'Neil with Bob Caruthers?
Tip had 7 seasons as a regular and Bob had 2 as a batsman. They were contemporaries and team-mates... Oh and both were regular pitchers at some point too. (That takes care of the pitching spot.)
My eight:
Tip O'Neil/ Bob Caruthers (If I can nominate him)
Hafey
Bottomley
Schoendist
Martin
Flood
McGee
by Zubin on Feb 2, 2007 10:26 AM EST 0 recs
Why no Gibson?
by enoscountry on Feb 2, 2007 10:27 AM EST 0 recs
Also
I'll submit my ballot after I've had time to think about it.
by musial6 on Feb 2, 2007 10:29 AM EST 0 recs
I assume
by sherwood on
Feb 2, 2007 10:42 AM EST
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My point was...
by musial6 on
Feb 2, 2007 11:10 AM EST
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Votes
Bubble players for me would be the 4 provisionals along with joe torre, keith hernandez, george hendrick and of course, mike matheny. throw in 3 years of orlando cepeda somewhere, instead of mcgwire?
by sherwood on Feb 2, 2007 10:36 AM EST 0 recs
out of my league
by Birds on the Matt on Feb 2, 2007 10:51 AM EST 0 recs
my list
the other 9: O'Neil, Bottomley, Hafey, Schoendist, Martin, Flood, McGee, Coleman, and (sentimental pick) Pendelton.
Also, I'm all for keeping Clark. He was the face of the Cards for a few years as well.
by eglasier on Feb 2, 2007 11:40 AM EST 0 recs
1100 OBP?
Just kidding eglasier, I'm sure you meant OPS...
I vote to let Big Mac stay too, althouth I also agree that it would be a cool idea to downgrade the players that don't have at least 6 years as a Cardinal.
by MRCARD on
Feb 2, 2007 11:59 AM EST
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Yes, his numbers were insane
This is a sim-tournament using player's individual seasons as different guys in the order. Since some players don't have 9 seasons, there needs to be some fill-in seasons to complete the roster. McGwire only had 2 full seasons here - so he's obviously a fill-in, rather than a team captain.
Is it in the best interest of the tournament to give any single player/team (i.e. Team Mize) McGwire's steroid aided seasons (which even trump Mize's already outstanding numbers) when the rest of the teams will be getting fill-in seasons that are more down to earth?
I think it makes sense to leave McGwire's ridiculous numbers out for the integrity of the competition. Personally I don't want to see team Stan the Man losing to team Mize/McJuicer in the final.
by musial6 on
Feb 2, 2007 3:23 PM EST
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mike matheny
by jojo5492 on Feb 2, 2007 11:59 AM EST 0 recs
break musial into 2
by bigcardsfan5 on Feb 2, 2007 12:00 PM EST 0 recs
Double Down...
by MRCARD on
Feb 2, 2007 12:12 PM EST
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I think we are leaving out one important guy
by stl3bagger on Feb 2, 2007 12:17 PM EST 0 recs
Great idea, lboros
I say keep McGwire in, all moral commentary aside. If you paired him with Pujols that would probably rig the winner, right there.
The guys from the 1930's have the high Avs/OBP and the guys from the 1990's-2000's have the power advantage with high Slg. Looking at those guys from the 1960's they have a higher hill to climb having played in the heyday of the pitcher.
My top 8:
Bottomley
McGee
Hernandez
Martin
Torre
Schoendienst
O'Neill
Hafey
Have at it and have fun!
by wildman on Feb 2, 2007 12:26 PM EST 0 recs
For all you baseball fans with iPods....
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117043003358696329.html?mod=hps_us_at_glance_columnists
If the Colorado Rockies win the NL West next year, perhaps they ought to vote Apple's Steve Jobs a playoff share.
Last year Brian Jones, then the Rockies' assistant coordinator of video coaching, and a colleague started experimenting with loading videos of at-bats and pitching performances -- an invaluable and time-honored scouting tool for players -- onto iPods.
"I showed it to [Todd] Helton," Mr. Jones tells ESPN.com's Jayson Stark. "And the next day, he brought his iPod in, and we put all his hits on there, dating back to 1998."
As Mr. Stark notes, "there were 1,509 of those hits, by the way. And when Helton's iPod didn't instantly explode or anything, the Rockies knew they were on to something. Eventually, more than two-thirds of the roster had piled on and turned this team into baseball's official iSquad. Every player gets his own custom set of videos loaded onto his personal iPod, sorted by date, hitter, pitcher and opponent -- and updated every week or so."
Jason Jennings, for one, credits the iPod viewing with helping him turn around his season. Mr. Jennings is now a member of the Houston Astros, and one imagines he'll be telling his new teammates about the Rockies' practice. If they don't know already, that is: Mr. Stark says players on the Philadelphia Phillies, Florida Marlins, Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Indians and Boston Red Sox are either already using iPods for game preparation, or have asked their organizations about it.
Which makes Mr. Stark wonder what's to come.
"One of these days, we predict, you'll see a pitcher take a walk behind the mound during a key at-bat, pull out his iPod and take a quick video-refresher course before launching the big pitch of the night," he writes. "Heck, if NFL quarterbacks can get plays radioed right into their helmets, why not? 'So then you know what'll happen,' Jennings laughed. 'Instead of getting kicked out of games for using pine tar, we'll get kicked out for using our iPods.' "
by wildman on Feb 2, 2007 12:43 PM EST 0 recs
Hard to imagine video junkies
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Feb 2, 2007 1:54 PM EST
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I really like your original 4
You ought to make them all face a rotation of Gibsons! That'll separate the men from the boys!
by houstoncardinal on Feb 2, 2007 12:45 PM EST 0 recs
Question
Thoughts?
by dukejbh14 on Feb 2, 2007 1:02 PM EST 0 recs
OK the official 2007 campaign for Marty Marion
Nicknames - Slats, the Octopus
.263 batting average with 1448 hits and 272 doubles and 36 home runs and 624 RBI in 1572 games.
Eight Consecutive Allstar games (1943-1950)
League MVP (1944)
Would had won multiple Gold Gloves if there had been Gold Gloves then
Played in 4 World Series (won 1942, 1944, 1946)
Managed the Cards in 1951
To sum Marty up, he was Ozzie before Ozzie was Ozzie. Granted I never saw Marty play but claims state he was just as good as Ozzie, just not as flashy. THe Cardinals organization is one of the best in the majors rememberring their past players, but i feel this is one player that has fallen through the cracks. Marion is the second oldest living cardinal (if the internet is right), but I have never seen him at any games nor celebrations. However I think his stats and accomplishments speak for themselves, he is one of the best 24 positional players ever in Cardinal History. Plus come on, his nickname was Octupus, good enough for me.
by stl3bagger on Feb 2, 2007 1:03 PM EST 0 recs
marion was a great player
but to elaborate upon what i said in the main post: the simulation isn't going to value marion's fielding skills the way they're valued in real life. and his hitting stats are so bad that he's got no chance. no matter who the opponent, he'll get beaten 0-4 in round 1 of the tournament and never be heard from again.
why include a player like that? it says more about the limitations of computer-based baseball than it does about marion; nonetheless, in this context his skills don't translate.
i'd rather give the slot to a player who at least would have a chance to win a series.
by lboros on
Feb 2, 2007 1:12 PM EST
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votes:
- McGee
- Bottomley
- Schoendienst
- Hernandez/Cepeda
- Flood
- Pepper Martin/ Mike Shannon
- Hendrick/Hafey
- Bill White/Ripper Collins
by 1st3rd2death on Feb 2, 2007 1:06 PM EST 0 recs
CF
by Yadier on Feb 2, 2007 1:18 PM EST 0 recs
Mixing two guys
Just my $0.01
