jaywalking
Pondering Jon Jay recently, I've read numerous reports that a tweener-type that doesn't really fit the profile of an everyday regular outfielder. Despite all this, he's in the Cardinal top 10 for nearly every prospect ranking system out there, as his batting numbers have been nothing short of spectacular. In his 3 seasons at the University of Miami Jay hit .378, and in his pro debut he hit .342 at low A. Some within the Cardinal organization talk him up as a future batting title winner, but outside of John Sickels almost all the other prognosticators see him as the team's future 4th outfielder. Hoping the Cardinals didn't pick a guy strictly for his college stats, I wanted some answers. Baseball America shed some light regarding the doubts, saying "Jay pumps his hands and uses a wide stance at the plate, quirky habits that scared off some scouts but haven't hurt him yet. He does have some length to his swing, which could create problems at higher levels." I like BA, but that answer left me unsatisfied.
While I am no scout, I went ahead and dug up Jay's video from draft day for a look. The described quirkiness was there, complete with fist pump and wide stance, but not really much as far as length to his swing as I could tell. I wanted to know how badly that would effect his game in reality. Enter Jeff Albert, hitting instructor and writer for Baseball Analyst's "Hitter's Eye" column, and his own website swingtraining.net. I emailed Jeff with the concerns I've heard about Jay, and he very graciously came up with a comparison of swings with a player I did not expect-Carlos Beltran. Of course that got me excited, Here's the video of the two swings:
Here is Jeff's comments regarding Jay:
My initial impression from Jay's video is that he has a pretty good swing to
accomplish what he does, which is using his speed to hit for high average. I wonder
if this swing developed from an effort to keep the ball out of the air in
effort to utilize his speed.Realize that stacking up to Beltran is a tall task, but they are similar
height/weight/position and these swings matched up well. Beltran's swing is
overall much more efficient. First thing I notice is the set up where Jay is
more back on his rear leg, and Beltran is about 50-50. This shows up as Jay
gets into his forward shift much earlier than Beltran. Starting the move
earlier does not really mean that Jay won't get as long of a look at the
ball as Beltran, it just indicates that Beltran has a quicker load-unload
process with his swing.As far as the height of Jay's hands, it does add length to his swing in
the sense that he does have to compensate being his hands are forward slightly earlier than Beltran, but I would not categorize Jay as the typical long swing. If
anything, Jay has to be quicker in order to make up for the extra distance, as
his hands start further up than Beltran's yet still make contact at
the same time. Generally speaking, this would be a good thing, however Jay
is getting the hands to the ball using mostly his arms, and losing out on
the opportunity to transfer rotational momentum into contact. The hands
swing serves him and plenty of others well in terms of making contact, but
as far as really maximizing contact and power, this will be a tough method
to use. The decision of how to address the problem (if that is what you
want to call it) becomes a matter of goals and preference. Perhaps Jay and
the organization and perfectly happy with his progress, that's their
call.The last place this difference shows up is in the frames right before and
after contact. Jay is pushing more into contact which costs bat speed right
before contact. Beltran turns the knob of the bat around much more quickly
and abruptly, which really gets the bat head around in a hurry and creates
that look of having quick wrists.I like Jay in the sense that he has a good base to work with. He apparently
has a good idea of what it takes to get the barrel to the ball quickly,
which is always a good starting point. Side-by-side to Beltran just shows
Jay has some room for improvement, which is a very good thing in my opinion.
So there you have it. Jay has a lot to work with and he's got a lot going for him already. He probably will not hit for much power, but Jeff indicates perhaps he could if he wanted to make the necessary adjustments. Right now, Jay's game is spraying liners to all fields and running like hell. Over his college and short pro career he's shown an advanced command of the strike zone by walking more then striking out. With this in mind and the results he's achieved so far, I respectfully disagree with the 4th outfielder label. Perhaps he is that future batting champ the Cardinal brass forecasted, who knows for sure? In my opinion, it's way too early to dismiss him as a role player and nothing more. Huge thank you to Jeff Albert for breaking this down for us.
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by truemun12 on Feb 18, 2007 1:37 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
where does he start the year at?
by azruavatar on Feb 18, 2007 1:47 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
That would surprise me
Here's a probably incomplete list of players who have to find a home at AA and AAA:
Ryan Ludwick
John Rodriguez
Skip Schumaker
Cody Haerther
Rick Ankiel
Miguel Negron
Reid Gorecki
Amaury Marti
Nick Stavinoha
Shaun Boyd
That's five outfielders for both teams, plus occasional outfielders like Brian Esposito and Eli Marrero.
Two regular starters from that group are going to have to be pushed aside before Jay and Rasmus join the AA team, if they both have very good Spring Trainings, I could see a trade happening before the start of the season to open up room, but think it more likely that they'll spend a month and a half in the Florida state league.
by liam on Feb 18, 2007 5:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent, excellent post, by the way
I hope you'll pass my (our) appreciation along to Jeff Albert for helping you with this.
by liam on Feb 18, 2007 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Some of those guys might end up with the big club
by Valatan on Feb 18, 2007 7:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great post, Erik
The perception of him as a fourth outfielder, at best, seems to underscore a larger trend that, to me at least, is a little disturbing. The game of baseball in general, at least to my mind, has become so power-centric that the idea of an offense being able to produce in any way other than the home run is inconceivable. Unfortunately, the scouting done today reflects that prejudice. The major league clubs seem to be managed by thirty Earl Weavers. I think Jay is the perfect player to illustrate this point. The guy has the potential, at least, to be a top level MLB hitter, but the less than monstrous home run totals are thrown out as reason that he'll never make it. What do you think would happen if Tony Gwynn were coming up today? "Good bat control, a little speed, good instincts in the field. He doesn't really have enough power to profile as a regular outfielder, unless he can stay in center, and his range isn't really sufficient." I think this really illustrates how one dimensional the modern game is in danger of becoming.
by the red baron on Feb 18, 2007 1:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hence the smart teams recent shift to OBP
by joker24 on Feb 18, 2007 3:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
good point red baron
"Could this be foreseen in his minor league record? It was clear from an early point that he was a very skilled line drive hitter, and his early pro performance was outstanding. But did anyone actually project that Gwynn was a Hall of Fame talent while he was in the Pacific Coast League in 1982? Probably not."
So far that also could describe Jay. Am I saying he's the next Tony Gwynn? No, probably not. But there are similarities, being both are polished, lefty line drive hitting outfielders out of college who's game is contact and speed. We all know Gwynn was obsessed with perfecting his swing, if Jay is that type of player I would expect very good things from him. If he's a superstitious type of hitter who is afraid to tinker like so many hitters then of course he'll be limited.
by erik on Feb 18, 2007 10:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or what would the scouts of today
by erik on Feb 18, 2007 10:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
by Valatan on Feb 18, 2007 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Overvaluing power
Perhaps the current (stat-inspired) trend to love ops (and the slg component) does not give due weight to obp component. And perhaps a John Jay is undervalued as a result.
by ncgostl on Feb 18, 2007 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
by joker24 on Feb 18, 2007 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
More like
by RedbirdRay on Feb 18, 2007 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Birnbaum, the guy who did that study, remeasured
by joker24 on Feb 18, 2007 11:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tango touts 1.7
I get a little burnt out on the math (I get enough math in my engineering classes; don't need it invading my entire life) but he makes some intuitive sense.
by azruavatar on Feb 19, 2007 12:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Unorthodox....
One thing I noticed in that video is that his arm looks to be below average. No carry on his throws.
by Baseball addict on Feb 18, 2007 2:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I've seen him live a few times
by joker24 on Feb 18, 2007 3:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
next Beltran?
off topic, but i just read this. and i'm still mad as hell about it. how anyone could boo IZZY is beyond me. the guy gave his heart&soul, and his physical health for the team and the fans, and that's how he got treated after blowing a few games? everyone who booed him should have to write him a letter, telling him how sorry they are, and that they are the uneducated type that only goes to BuschIII to be seen, and know nothing about baseball. and beg him not to leave after this season. what he has done for us can't be measured in dollars and cents. the Cardinals are a much better team with IZZY than without. he should be a Cardinal for life people. when healthy, IZZY is one of the top closers in baseball. how could you all turn on him so quickly? i'm so mad about this. this is not how Cardinals fans in the past treated a member of the family. when did everyone become just like those pathetic band-wagon fans out on the east coast?
by gdm426 on Feb 18, 2007 3:55 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I am a fan of Izzy
- Izzy, you are a major league ballplayer. Grow up. Guys get boo'd everyday. I don't appreciate it or condone it, and hate that it happens at Busch sometimes. But, whining that your feelings are hurt over it months later? Get over yourself.
- I don't think he should be a Cardinal for life. It's not that I dislike him in any way. As I stated, I'm a fan. The reason is...*No closer is worth the money Izzy commands*. Closers are generated from smoke and mirrors. They are failed staters, bullpen rank climbers and manufactured regularly by guys like Billy Beane. There is absolutely no reason in the world to pay any guy 7-9 million/per. Especially when you are an organization who claims to strive to pay less per marginal win.
by RedbirdRay on Feb 18, 2007 8:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
disagree
Give me a dedicated, classy, team-first guy like Izzy on my team any day.
by DCGreg on Feb 18, 2007 10:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ummmm?
The part where he informed the team he wouldn't attend the winter warm-ups, how he's still bringing up getting boo'd and it's mid-Feb, how he's not sure he wants to retire with the team because of it....that's whining.
I've been an Izzy apologist all along...so, I don't appreciate the "people like you". I think fans are mostly fair-weather and have a what have you done for me lately concept.
But, I find whining to the press about getting boo'd much less than "classy".
by RedbirdRay on Feb 18, 2007 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
neither
As for winter warm-up and the possibility of retiring with the team, I'm not sure what you're expecting from a guy who apparently got booed at the parade. When fans are treating him that way after winning a World Series, why should he be showing blind loyalty to the team?
by DCGreg on Feb 18, 2007 10:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying he should give
I'm saying if he can't take the heat here...good luck making it somewhere else. The fans here are much nicer than most cities. I guess his best hope would be to go somewhere like Florida or KC where no one comes.
Also, if a guy can't take some boo-ing...I doubt he any longer has the intestinal fortitude to close games.
by RedbirdRay on Feb 18, 2007 10:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Izzy
by Yadier on Feb 18, 2007 7:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Izzy
by Don Zero on Feb 18, 2007 10:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Problem with Izzy
by busch bird on Feb 18, 2007 11:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
No champion can be expected to do so.
Anyone who booe'd Izzy at the parade should turn in their Cards jerseys and become Phillies fans, you don't deserve to be a fan of the greatest organization in all of sports.
Better yet, YOU SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!
by orlando card on Feb 18, 2007 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, but this is wrong
Instead, he continued to say he was "good to go" despite his failing mechanics, and the results spoke for themselves.
If he had told LaRussa or Duncan the extent of his injury, then they could have made an informed choice about whether to put him in. Instead, he kept it to himself, management clearly had no clue why he was continually failing so badly, and the team lost a LOT of games unnecessarily as a result.
If he were truly a team player, he would have fessed up about the pain much sooner. (Notice I said "sooner", not "immediately".) As it was, he kept it to himself WAY too long, and the entire team suffered as a result.
I'll be glad to have him back, assuming he returns to his old form. But you can't blame the fans for their frustration when we all KNEW what we were in for yet again as he walked in from the bullpen. He was likely to either blow yet another save by giving up a bomb or walking too many guys...or maybe barely hang on for the save after surrendering "only" 1 or 2 runs with men still on base when he finally got the 3rd out.
Izzy is a good pitcher, and I never booed him. However, his performance last year was AWFUL and kept getting worse, and he burned through the Cardinals' fans significant patience long before he finally packed it in. It's even quite possible that he might have tried to hold out even longer if he weren't getting booed at all. (Can you imagine?) Frankly, to blame us for getting booed strikes me as classic projection, probably because he KNOWS he should have confessed about the extent of his arthritis and the pain sooner. He should have told Tony/Duncan about the pain earlier, and let THEM decide what's best for the team. Clearly, he thought he was perfectly capable of making those decisions himself, and he was WRONG. If management had known, they could have (wisely) DLed him sooner, he probably wouldn't have endured any boos at all, he could have had his surgery sooner, and he'd probably already be at 100% for this year's spring training, rather than forcing the entire team to play the Starter/Closer version of musical chairs if he's not ready come April. But he made the decision to hide the condition from the team for months. And, frankly, it was the wrong call.
by Mr Clean on Feb 18, 2007 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i have to disagree
i think you are also forgetting that mid season, IZZY went like 30+ innings or appearances without a blown save. that or allowing a run. my point is, mid season he was very good. then his hip starting bothering him again, and he started blowing saves, and giving up runs.
it's a double edge sword when you discuse if IZZY should have shut it down sooner, or held out for as long as he did. on one hand, it worked out great for us because he was able to help guide the kids in the pen to help the Cardinals win the World Series. if you say he should have shut it down earlier, then we loose him for his mid season run when he did so well. and maybe the kids in the pen dont pick up the slack. and we dont even make the playoffs. he said on FSN Midwest this weekend too that he held on and played for as long as he could, just so the kinds in the pen could have some cusion to work with. he wanted the team to have a big lead in case they kids buckled under the pressure at first.
on one hand, you like it that a player is willing to play though pain. but, if the players play is so bad it starts to hurt him and the team, he probably should shut it down. its hard for althetes to come to that dicision on their own. i think they do need to be more honest with management about how they feel. but it's a fine line to walk. you dont want a guy like jd drew who takes weeks off at a time for minor injuries.
i think the fans need to reach out to IZZY this year and do what they can to apoloigize for the way they treated him last year. none of us knew just how hurt he was. even guys like me to defended him till the end knew there was something wrong with him. i knew he should stop playing and find out what was wrong. i think i even said that here. but i dont blame him at all for feeling like he does. i agree with him that he was treated badly. he was booed at home from the start of the season. but if he had told everyone his hip was bothering him, i do think he would have been booed less. but that goes aginst everything IZZY is about. he just shows up, does his job. and makes no excuses about how he plays. he takes the praise when he gets a save. and takes all the blame when he blows a save. he is just the type of player everyone wants on their team. and i hope he ends his career as a Cardinal. I belive he has earned it. the Cardinals are a much better team with a healthy, IZZY, than without him.
by gdm426 on Feb 18, 2007 7:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm.
I do remember him blowing the game the night before in spectacular fashion, however, to the tune of 2 walks, a grand slam, and a single...against the Cubs no less. He allowed his inherited runner to score, walked the bases loaded, promptly gave up the grand slam, and then gave up a single to the next batter. He was finally pulled with 4 ER and 0 outs. So perhaps all of us cool, there-to-be-seen trendy people in the stands were tipped off by the one or two "real" Cardinals fans in the stadium that afternoon, and they booed him for that.
(In case you can't tell, I don't buy your argument that the new Busch was filled with "non-fans" all year.)
If I recall correctly, he also wasn't very sharp in the home opener either, since after the inherited runner on 1st took 2nd, he gave up a run-scoring single and a walk before finally getting his lone out. Anyway.
I admit that it's a dicey proposition to talk about possibly doing things differently during the regular season after having won the World Series. However, we didn't clinch our playoff berth until the very last game. If you subtract just ONE of his 10 blown saves ("tops" in the league, btw), suddenly we clinch without having to rely on the Braves, avoid the whole "guess the starter" hijinks for that last game against MIL, and forgo stressing about a possible make-up game against the Giants.
As a result, I stand by my assertion that his failure to properly report his condition to management was far from "heroic" or courageous. Think about it...if he had waited a few more days before finally admitting his condition to Tony in the 2ND WEEK OF SEPTEMBER, we might have lost one more game and been out of the playoffs entirely. In fact, here's what lboros said that day:
"the truth outs re izzy's hip; glad it didn't necessitate 2 or 3 more bad outings for that to happen. he effectively goes onto the DL now, and we may not see him again this year. i have to believe the hip has been a season-long irritant; it would help explain both the lack of movement on jason's cut fastball and the outrageous walk rate. bryan burwell's column makes a nice statement; next time we see isringhausen on the mound, whenever that is, i hope he'll be physically sound."
Izzy's a good closer, and I hope he can bounce back after his hip procedure and return to his prior form. However, I also hope he's learned a lesson about when to properly report his condition to management, so that they can decide what's best for the team, not him. He didn't do that in 2006, and it was a mistake.
by Mr Clean on Feb 18, 2007 10:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agree to disagree
i have the first game on my dvr, and yes, there are loud boo's after IZZY gave up some runs in the 9th. but he did close out the game and get a save. the Cards were swept in the windy city the weekend before the home opener. the team as a whole said it was the weather's fault. really cold, windy, rain, etc. IZZY was not sharp, but neather was anyone else. not that i am using it as an excuse, but that's what they all said. IZZY did have a ruff start to the year. but he started getting some treatment for his hip, having liquid gell or something like that injected into his hip to help lube up his hip. then he was able to land properly, and he stopped having a hard time getting outs and blowing saves. once that treatment stopped working in late august, his mechanics went into the crapper and he started blowing saves again.
you got to know those injections to IZZY's hip were quite painful. but he kept doing it, and Tony and Dave knew he was getting them. IZZY kept doing it because at the time, he was still the best option to close out the 9th. IZZY took those painful injections all the time to help the team win. he didnt have to do that. he could have called it a year in april, and had the hip shaving surgery then. but he, and Dave&Tony thought those injections could help IZZY, and they did. so he did them for as long as they worked. then, he shut it down.
if taking a needle to your hip that goes right to the freakin bone to help your team win all season long is not the act of a "hero". please tell me what is. IZZY didnt have to do that. but he did to help the team win.
here is matt leache's story about this on the Cardinals main website. also a good read.
i am sure there were lots and lots of regular fans at Busch III who have rooted for the Cardinals all their lives. and taking one good example of IZZY blowing a save to make your point that everyone booed him does not make it right that he was booed. i agree with Tony on this one. I do think what IZZY did last season was better for the team in the long run. you do not. so there is nothing i can say to change your mind. and there is nothing you can say to change mine.
i am not saying it's wrong to boo. in fact, sometimes i think fans should boo. but dont boo a player if he is hurt, and trying his best, when his body is letting him down and not allowing him to preform like he did before he got hurt. and that is what you and a lot of fans at Busch III did last year to IZZY. listen, it may not have been public knowledge that IZZY was hurt, but anyone who watched IZZY pitch in the past knew something was wrong with him. i was just as upset that IZZY was blowing games as the rest of the Cardinals fans. but booing him didnt help anyone. in fact, it up set his wife,his friends and IZZY so much that now he probably does not want to pitch for the Cardinals after this season. and thats a real shame. IZZY's been a great closer for the Cardinals. and it's a shame if he leaves with bad feelings for the fans, or the Cardinals.
i cant say i agree with you that it was a mistake for IZZY to not tell the Cardinals just how hurt he was. my argument is what if he did once he started blowing saves again, and Adam or Loop failed at it, and we didnt make the playoffs because of that? i see your point of view. and i respect it. but after reading what IZZY and Dave and Tony have said today, i am on their side of the fence with this. IZZY pitched as long as he could to help get the team a big lead, so in case they needed it, the team would still make the playoffs in case the bullpen fell apart.
yes, IZZY probably, maybe should have told them just how hurt he was. the Cardinals did know it was bad because of the regular injections he was getting to his hip. but considering the out come of last season, i'm glad he didn't shut it down in april. but like IZZY said to Leach, if he is having another season like last season this season, he will shut it down for good. personally i hope he is healthy all season long, and does get to save the series clinching game in the World Series in October.
by gdm426 on Feb 19, 2007 1:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
"but dont boo a player if he is hurt, and trying his best, when his body is letting him down and not allowing him to preform like he did before he got hurt. and that is what you and a lot of fans at Busch III did last year to IZZY."Correction: I most certainly did NOT boo him, as I already stated earlier.
And as for whether or not it's heroic to keep fighting through the pain even if the results are bad for the team, I think Izzy himself said it best:
"It's frustrating because even the outings when I don't give up runs it seems I really struggle to get my three outs. Just my body makes it hard to get three outs consistently."Looks like he just backed up pretty much everything I said. Except for the fact that he came to that rather obvious conclusion on 08 Sep, whereas most of us that were paying attention to his pitching in 2006 came to that conclusion a little bit earlier."If my not pitching helps the team out, then that's what I need to do. If I go out there and stink every time, then, yeah, I shouldn't be pitching."
"I don't need to be going out there and wasting games for a team that has worked so hard. I'm not going to jeopardize all that we've worked for just to try and make a comeback. I have a lot of things to think about."
by Mr Clean on Feb 19, 2007 3:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
gray area
IZZY said a few statements that were contredictory. there were a couple more in both articles along the line of the ones you included. my opinion is that it falls in the gray area that is part of the pro athletes montra. "play hurt, but dont let your play hurt the team." for players like IZZY, Rolen, even Albert, Tony has said it's like pulling teeth on a rabid bear to get them to sit down for a few games. they are taught from t-ball to not take themselves out of the game, unless a arm or a leg is falling off. what we as fans cannot understand is at what point does a pro athlete come to the realization that his play is hurting his teams chances of winning? it's not our bodies. we dont feel how they feel. IZZY said himself he knew warming up in the pen he might be done on the 8th. so you and i read that and think, if he thought he was done, why even come into the game if he thinks his body is going to fail him? but as a pro, IZZY thinks, give it my best, do whatever i can to help the team win.
that is something you and i probably will never understand. how can we? i never played baseball past high school. i was never any good to play on little league teams or pony league teams. i was always the last one cut when try outs where over. but i always played on my high school teambecause i went to a small school, and they needed warm bodies to fill the roster. i never got hurt. i never have experienced what IZZY or any other pro player has. so i dont think i have the right to sit in front of the TV, or in the stands and judge players as harshly as some fans feel it's their right to. simply because they pay $8 dollers for a Bud Light.
it's a fine line IZZY was walking last year. his thinking is very old school. i cant fault him for playing as long as he did, because i appreciate his desire to help the Cardinals win. i love that he has a very good work ethic much like Rolen does. i love it that it hurt him more that he felt like he was letting the team down. rather than he felt he was hurting his "potential future earnings" MLB needs more players like IZZY and Rolen.
but i think it is very, VERY important that a player be completly honest with the coaches and medical staff about their injuries. IZZY was, to a point. and yes, i will agree with you that he should have told the team that his hip had gotten worse. and Dave probably should have said something to him if he noticed his mechanics getting worse and worse. The Cardinals do not have a good track record recently with players being too hurt to be productive. IZZY, Rolen and Mulder all played too long before they went to the coaches and told them they could not keep playing. i think that should never happen. teams should be aware that a player is so hurt that he cant preform up to his high standards. the Cardinals may very well be more responsiable for IZZY pitching as long as he did. because pro players are trained to play through any and all kinds of pain. it is the coaches and trainers job to know when to shut down a player. every pitching coach and manager gets the same response from a pitcher when they ask him on the mound if he is ok. "sure coach. i'm fine. i'll get the next guy out no problem. i'm ok." etc, etc.
like i said, this is a very gray area. we dont want a bucnh of jd drew's. but we also dont want guys out there who are so hurt, that by them continuing to play it's hurting the Cardinals chances of winning. hopefully this upcoming season everyone stays healthy, and players being to injured to play will not be an issue for the 07 Cardinals.
by gdm426 on Feb 19, 2007 5:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Playing Through v Giving Up
But I don't think that is really the case here. If Izzy was getting injections to improve his hip condition, the coaches obviously knew what was going on and should've been aware of the issues concerning the procedure. They should've taken all of Izzy's "I'm good to go, coach" affirmatives with a grain of salt, looking at how he was pitching and the results from it, and made the decision to shut him down.
It is possible that the coaching staff thought that Izzy, even in his condition, was a better option than the next guy available at Memphis or the FA market - and I would probably agree with that. And to think that Izzy, after several recent shaky outings, would revert to a capable pitcher is not beyond the realm of possibility - he had done it many times before.
The real problem is that LaRussa/Duncan believed so much in Isrighausen as the closer that they would rather place all their faith in his weakened form than take a chance on anyone else in the bullpen. Wagonmaker had pitched well but proven nothing, Looper had shown vicious splits versus lefties, and no one else had done anything to build any trust with the coaching staff. (Maybe it would've been different with a healthy Al Reyes all year; who knows?)
We know now that is was a good idea for LaRussa to place his trust in Wainwright. At the time, though, that would have required a leap of faith and changing what he believed in. That's hard to do.
Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good?
Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier.
by Solanus on Feb 19, 2007 11:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
some would have said
It's too high a standard. I think, in many respects, similar to the Ray Lankford discussion the other day. He's not a superstar but a very solid player. But too many people have higher expectations of him. He gets booed for not being Joe Nathan or Mariano Rivera or Billy Wagner. He's just been very good for the Cards, never a star but he's done the job we've asked him to do w/ consistency. He has been an above-average major league closer for several years now -- and this is a position where people generally don't last very long. He's lasted longer than most and done it better than most, and for some, that's just not good enough.
by chuckb on Feb 18, 2007 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take Izzy over Wagner
by Don Zero on Feb 18, 2007 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great stuff, erik!
by chuckb on Feb 18, 2007 1:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
izzy
just a quick comparison: was mcgwire ever booed in 2001 when he hit .189? if he was i dont remember it, we as the supposed best fans in baseball should be above booing a guy
i will say this, if a closer comes in and blows a save today, he may get a few boos as he is walking off, but to be booed while walking in from the bullpen? or at the parade? that isnt true cards fans
by bigcardsfan5 on Feb 18, 2007 2:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
McGwire also slugged .492 and hit 29 HR in 2001
by Valatan on Feb 18, 2007 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
very true
looking at his numbers from that year did put what juan does into context:
mcgwire had a .316 OBP with his .187 BA
juan had a .317 OBP last year with a .278 BA
by bigcardsfan5 on Feb 18, 2007 10:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
belliard
by DCGreg on Feb 18, 2007 3:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Good for Belly...
Despite a few memorable plays, he was a league average infielder with a below average bat.
There's not much of a market for overweight/out of shape middle infielders with average fielding and below average offense, I'm afraid.
by Mr Clean on Feb 18, 2007 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I never got it with Belly
by Glenn Brummer stole home on Feb 18, 2007 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's clear that the
by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 18, 2007 4:54 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Jay might be a good hitter, but...
I'm taking a wait-and-see approach with Jay, as he was just drafted last season. He'll have plenty of time to show us what he's capable of before we need him. It'll be interesting to see if he can crack the team even if he's basically a line drive high OBP guy. Maybe he can start the return of the Runnin Redbirds...
by Phyrkrakr on Feb 18, 2007 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I really just want Jay to reach the majors
"Jay has issued a landmark decision in the case of Royals v. Cardinals",
or ball v. fence"
by Valatan on Feb 18, 2007 8:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
that's a lot better than
by chuckb on Feb 18, 2007 8:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Heh.
by STLCardinalsFan on Feb 19, 2007 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mr. Clean
-Why was the starting lineup not booed since they mustered one run against Greg Maddux on a day the wind was blowing out? And they produced two unearned runs against Carlos Zambrano the next day. And they did squat outside of two homers from Rolen and Pujols against Sean Marshall.
-Shouldn't Sidney Ponson have been booed since he was mediocre in the Sunday night game?
Fans are fickle, no doubt. But booing Isringhausen had nothing to do with his performance against the Cubs and everything to do with pent-up frustration for him because they see him as being a bad closer. It's been well-documented that he is in fact a very good closer.
by ryanisforever on Feb 19, 2007 12:40 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
9th inning of home opener
so, that's 3 boo's from the crowd in the 9th. one each for Tony, Loop & IZZY. and one "groan" after a single. seams to me the home crowd had little patience for any miss haps in the 9th inning from the start of the season. if i am wrong, please some one out there let me know.
dont forget, we had an awesome year. despite all the crap of the regular season, we were the only team left standing at the end of October. and that's what it's all about everyone. we were the Champions of 2006.
by gdm426 on Feb 19, 2007 2:09 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the reality check, gdm426
I admit being hard in Izzy from afar last season. Living out of the area (by 1,000 miles or so), I wasn't able to attend games and therefore didn't boo him. But I wasn't kind when talking about his poor performances. Of course, that was all before I knew he was injured.
Today, given the benefit of hindsight and perspective, I feel totally different. As has been said above, we Cards fans should reach out to Izzy. He's a hometown guy who has provided plenty of positives during his tenure here. If he truly was booed at the parade, even after the extent of his injury was known, that's pitiful.
I'm glad he's back and will look at him with a different eye this year. His guidance of the young bullpen during the postseason goes a long way in my book. Izzy is top notch.
by 10worldchamps on Feb 19, 2007 6:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
10 World Champs
We are the most successful organization for a reason. St. Louis fans, Baseball Spoken Here.
Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. Just a little ad. for Krabi, Thailand. I'm there now. Gotta leave soon........ poor me:)
by Yadier on Feb 19, 2007 8:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
thanks
by 10worldchamps on Feb 20, 2007 10:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Izzy
Izzy is a great competitor and team player who always takes responsibility for his actions.
The booing is as much for the decision to bring in a struggling closer as it was for the closer himself.
MLB players play hurt everyday. They don't always know if it is just temporary pain or something that will continue to get worse. Tough guys like Izzy, Edmonds, Rolen, Eckstein, Mulder, Pujols...try to play through it.
I find it very difficult to believe that Tony and Duncan don't ever know about these injuries to guys like Izzy, Mulder, Edmonds, Rolen. That is a load of BS. Anyone watching the games can tell, so only geniuses can't see it? (And they never talk to the team doctors???)
Tony is a tough guy and he loves tough players. He bashes ones who don't play through injuries. (See Drew and Edmonds at the end of last year) He readily admits that, but doesn't seem to want to take resposibility for it when a player sucks while playing hurt. (See Mulder, Izzy, Rolen, Enc, Eckstein last year.) So he blames it on the player for not "telling" him about the injury. He knows how much bashing he would take for making a player play hurt, while the player can look like a warrior for trying play while hurt. Most of the time it works for Tony and he is the best at getting the most out of players, but it doesn't work every time.
My suggestion, standing ovation for Izzy the first time he takes the mound in 2007. Knowing what we know now, we owe him that.
by Elvis on Feb 19, 2007 10:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
That swing
by gbaby on Feb 19, 2007 2:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

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