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daze of our lives

re the recent conflict over diaries: please see this thread for an update. more on this subject to come later.

now for the other, more consequential conflict taking place in cardinal-land. i guess it's official, if it wasn't already: the cards have become the yankees. they're as much about ego and personality now as about baseball; what the participants say about each other off the field generates at least as much interest as what they do on the field. i'm referring, of course, to la russa's blunt remarks about rolen, capsulized in this diary and in joe strauss's article this morning. to me, the content of la russa's remarks is far less interesting than the subtext: he now regards the war w/ rolen as a competition. and tony, as in all things, very badly wants to win.

i have no idea which guy is "right" here, nor do i much care; in a clash of personalities like this, the fault almost always lies on both sides. from a purely baseball standpoint, if i could only have one of these two guys in my organization, either rolen or la russa --- i'd take scotty.

having said that: i'd deal scotty in a heartbeat if the cards could get a decent return. so far they can't, and that seems to be largely because the owners won't pick up much of rolen's salary. this is one instance in which the worn-out and overused "cards are cheap!!" accusation actually sticks, imho. is it any wonder that teams won't part with premium talent to acquire a player with rolen's salary, health issues, and recent track record? no duh. but there has been more interest in scotty than i expected --- and if the cards were willing to pick up, say, half the tab, they might actually be able to get a deal done. the acquiring team would get him for, in essence, 3 yrs / $18m; that's a bargain in a marketplace where guys like gary mathews and aaron rowand can command upwards of $10m a season. suppose the cards were to offer rolen plus $18 mill to the giants, who have expressed interest in scott and possess a surplus of young arms (from which they reportedly are willing to deal). mozeliak asks for matt cain in return. from a payroll standpoint, the $18m the cards are sending out to san francisco becomes part of matt cain's "salary"; it doesn't go into his pocket, but it's part of the price the cards are paying for his services. that gets added to the money that actually does go into cain's pocket --- he's 1 year away from arb eligibility, so he stands to earn an aggregate of about $8m over the next three years --- and you wind up paying about $26m over three years for cain. in this marketplace, a pitcher of his ability is a stinkin' bargain at 3 yr / $26m.

of course, we don't know if the giants would go for that specific deal; maybe they'd counter by offering noah lowry and jonathan sanchez, or maybe they'd tell mo "sorry, not interested." but i think that's how the team should go about it. approach the dodgers and offer rolen + $18m for andy la roche or chad billingsley; approach the angels and offer the same for jered weaver, or for ervin santana plus a prospect. and once the trade is completed, if there's still a hole at 3d base the cards still have half of rolen's salary left over to pay his replacement (let's just say mike lamb for the purposes of discussion). the objective would be to convert the $36m on rolen's contract into a package of talent that looks something like matt cain and mike lamb --- a package of talent that's younger and at least as good but not a penny more expensive; a package of talent that's worth the money.

i've often defended the cards' unwillingness to spend, because i've often thought the expenditures under consideration were unwise ones; refusal to make a bad investment does not constitute cheapness, it constitutes intelligence. but in this case, spending some $$$$ might rid the cards of a problematic relationship and bring young talent in return --- a good investment. it's the owners' job to facilitate that possibility and give mozeliak a decent product to offer at market. so far, it appears they haven't opened the coffers far enough to empower him.

one of the teams that has expressed interest in rolen, the dodgers, signed andruw jones last night to a deal worth 2 years and $36m --- another reason i think rolen at 3 yrs / $18m would fetch lots of interest. in this market, the jones deal looks like a bargain; i'd a lot rather have him on that contract than torii hunter for 5 / $90m, or aaron rowand on whatever dumb deal he ends up getting. while i think the cards could have afforded andruw for 2 years at that price, i don't view him as the type of player mo should be looking at. if the cards were better positioned to contend in the short term, then sure --- great buy. i think the dodgers will be pleased with their acquisition. but he wouldn't have got the cardinals where they need to go. he's expensive, past 30, and coming off a bad season --- the type of player the cards already have enough of; the type of player that got the team into its current mess.

step back and think about this team for just one second. about 20 percent of its 2008 payroll is tied up in three players --- encarnacion ($6.5m), mulder ($6.5m), and carpenter ($10.5m) --- with almost no value. one can't play at all; one hasn't been any good since 2005 and is coming off back-to-back surgeries; and one will miss 2/3 of the season before attempting his comeback from back-to-back surgeries. another 20 percent of the payroll --- edmonds ($8m) and rolen ($12m) --- is tied up in old, injury-prone, badly diminished players. those 5 contracts are among the 7 richest ones on the team, and they're all liabilities --- big ones. so big that only a team with a peaking farm system could hope to overcome them. there is a line of argument which contends that the team can be fixed via the acquisition of still more pricey, injured and/or declining stars. i reject that notion.

mozeliak was quoted the other day like so: "I feel really torn in trying to address '08 to make some impact to make sure we're competitive within our division, where it might sacrifice something for '09 and '10." that quote gives me comfort. it tells me that mo has his priorities in order: 2008 is a lower priority than 2009 and beyond. that's a rational approach, and mo should stick to it. but his patience will be tested by the win-now demands of fans and (in some cases) the media. i think it would be constructive for the cards to drop the pretense that they are competing in 2008 . . . . ok, from a marketing standpoint maybe they can't afford to do that. but they could say: "we'll be as competitive as our veterans make us. we'll be competitive if edmonds can avoid injuries; if rolen's shoulder is healthy; if mulder is able to contribute; if carpenter can give us a lift at the end of the year. we're always on the lookout for opportunities to improve the team, but they have to be long-term solutions as opposed to quick fixes. when we have a clean shot at a long-term solution, we'll bag it; in the meantime we'll rely on the warriors who won us 2 pennants and a world title."

some people would scream bloody murder at that statement, but others would appreciate the candor. fans get upset when their intelligence is insulted --- when the team offers empty promises ("we're looking for upgrades, we intend to compete") that it knows it probably can't live up to. candor might hurt the cardinals' ticket sales in the short term, but it won't do any long-term damage. lack of candor, on the other hand, damages the franchise's credibility and makes people cynical. reading the comments here every day, and at all the other cardinal blogs and the p-d boards, it's clear that cynicism is spiking. no matter what happens --- antonetti doesn't come here, la russa returns, a trade does or doesn't happen, an injured player does or doesn't come back healthy, etc etc --- the organization immediately gets denounced for acting in bad faith. while i don't think most of those accusations are warranted, i totally understand why people go there. they go there because the franchise is so far from honest in its communication. the cardinals talk down to their customers; they won't tell us truths they think we don't want to hear, or truths they think we can't handle. instead they serve up harmless little lies --- except over time and in the aggregate, the lies do inflict harm; frustration mounts, resentment builds.

the relationship between rolen and la russa seems to have deteriorated due to bad communication (or total lack thereof); there's a danger that a similar dynamic could pollute the relationship between the fan base and team --- probably not to the point of divorce, but certainly to the point of trial separation. there are two sides to every relationship. fans have to have realistic expectations; the franchise has to cultivate them. it's not happening that way right now.

* * * * * * * * * * *

marketplace note: milton bradley's docs like what they see, according to ken rosenthal:
Free-agent outfielder Milton Bradley, recovering from surgery to repair a torn ACL and MCL, received an encouraging report after visiting Dr. Tim Kremchek on Monday.

Bradley is expected to be ready by either Opening Day or April 15, and figures to land a one-year contract after some of the more prominent outfielders are signed.

i always thought he'd be a good fit for the cards, based purely on the merits. he's an even better fit now --- another crazy, combative ego; another unpredictable character for the soap opera.

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Rolen vs. LaRussa
I'd keep Scotty too, if it was simply down to these two.  I don't know if TLR thinks he can motivate Rolen with his comments or what, but I wish he'd keep it to himself.

I do like that they just aren't giving away Rolen, but I, like you, would hope that if they could get good young talent in return, they'd think about paying some of the salary.

by Cardinal70 on Dec 6, 2007 9:11 AM EST   0 recs

Simply down 2 two
I think that might be an underlying current there, C70.  There are certainly more than the two to consider.

I feel there are two major opposing forces adjusting the free agency pay-scale:  the greater value placed on team-controlled youth by organizations and the spoils of revenue sharing.   The free agents want thier cut, therefore teams are (finally!) starting to appreciate the value and upside of team-controlled youth appropriately.  

Where this seems important to us is the timing of re-upping Albert should we (I hope!) keep him.   I think the dust will settle on contract adjustments soon.  Therefore, I feel the best time to approach Albert about extending his time in StL would probably be later 2009.   Now, my hope is by late 2009 we are competitive, have a youngish team with upside that tends to re-inspire, keep focused veterans.  I also hope we wisely spend our freed budget dollars.   I don't want to enter that time with a whole year or so of deteriorating team chemistry due to Rolen/LaRussa.   I also don't want to enter that time still payroll constricted and talent-challenged/non-competitive.   I think this would have a huge influence on Albert's likeliness to remain here.   And, probably a huge influence on how much he would accept to stay here.  

I could live with taking 2 months of 2008 to raise Rolen's value or try to somehow resolve relationships or whatever.   The Cardinals simply cannot let it go on longer.

And, speaking of Pujols, how does he feel about all this now?  It seems I somehow got the impression he was baffled by Rolen's dislike of Tony and that Albert has great respect for Tony.   Was that speculation?  Did I read that somewhere?  I cannot remember.   Do Rolen and Albert have a strained relationship?   I know which of those two I would pick!

by RedbirdRay on Dec 6, 2007 10:26 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Dead on, LB.
I'm one of those who often gets upset with the tenor of so many comments from fans, who jump to conclusions; who think they understand dynamics within the management and ownership that they can't possibly have enough info to understand; who use any event, statement or rumor to buttress their pre-existing prejudices about this manager or that owner, etc.  And I'm guilty of a lot of those things too, now and then.

OTOH, there is an old principle of PR and advertising--that if your customers don't understand what you're trying to get across to them, you aren't doing your job; rationalize all you want, but at the end of the day your image and reputation are your responsibility.  So while I don't think the Cardinals' sins w.r.t. PR are as great as many seem to think, it is their job to fix it.  A little honesty from the front office would go a long way.  

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 6, 2007 9:18 AM EST   0 recs

Wondering what happened
Tony has been uncharacteristically outspoken on Rolen.  It makes me wonder if something has spurred this latest out-burst by Don Tony.  Could it be that the Cardinals had a trade they like worked out and Rolen said no?  I have no idea but the timing seems odd.

by gonzostl on Dec 6, 2007 9:31 AM EST   0 recs

Lets do something? Anything!!

  Well I'm a Card fan sitting up here in Michigan & yes its COLD! Unless your a tiger fan, especially with all the hot deals they are making. Dave Dombroski GM for the Tigers has been heralded a genius for all the trades he's getting done. I keep waiting for something to happen for the Cards & all I read is what to do & what not to do.
   Lets do something! Mike Illitch owner of the Tigers & the Little Ceasars pizza empire is not shy to spend money this off season. Since Budweiser is a sponsor of the Cards should I invest my money in beer or continue to buy $5 large pizza's because come spring the Tigers ar loaded with toppings!
CliffNotes

by CliffNotes on Dec 6, 2007 9:33 AM EST   0 recs

What is Rolen Worth?
I think the Cardinals are dramatically over-valuing Rolen. He has not been productive for 1.5 seasons. Really, he has only hit well for half a season over the last 3 years. He can't get along with his manager and adamantly wants off his team. His contract is expensive.

I liked him as a player, but one has to wonder if he has ANY hitting left in him. Will Carroll speculated that his shoulder very likely can't withstand regular play. Based on the last 1.5 seasons, it is quite possible he will never slug .450 again over a season. Jeff Bagwell went from being a top first baseman to worthless pretty quickly.

If Rolen bounces back next year, you could look bad trading him. However, if he slugs .480 for April, .425 for May, .350 for June, and in July announces his shoulder is bothering him and he needs to go on the DL, I think you'd be pretty happy if you had simply given him away to someone willing to take some of his salary.

I think the second scenario is likely enough that teams have to worry. He is a very risky player--he has the potential to have decent upside, but he also could be an expensive non-contributor for 3 years. If I was a GM who traded anything for Rolen and it didn't work out, I'd be worried about explaining how I didn't see it coming.

If the Cardinals want talent for Rolen and want to pick up none of his salary, they are going to have trouble moving him. They need to realize that it is quite possible they will pay Rolen $36 million over the next three years and still need someone to play 3B.

by tarakas on Dec 6, 2007 9:35 AM EST   0 recs

The soap opera analogy
is apt. If I want to watch a "male soap opera", there's always professional wrestling. And I would note that it is LaRussa that's going public with all this crap. Rolen, whatever his other faults, is keeping his mouth shut. (So far, anyway. Today's article may change that.) I personally am unwilling to lay all the blame on Rolen. It's true, as many people have noted, that it's not uncommon to have to deal with an asshole boss, but it's also true that LaRussa is not really Rolen's boss. Rather, he is Rolen's immediate supervisor, and in my experience good bosses (i.e., Bill DeWitt) try to install people in management with sufficient people skills that they don't drive employees away. For every Dave Stewart that loves LaRussa, there's an Ozzie Smith. I'm not privy to what has occurred behind closed doors, and honestly I have no way of gauging who's "at fault", but I have to say that "I don't know why he's unhappy" rings a little false to me. I think I have SOME idea, and I've never met Rolen. One thing I definitely give LaRussa credit for is understanding human psychology, and it surprises me that somebody like that would send a "here's what you need to do to fix your career"-type letter to someone who seems to have the temperament that Rolen does. Is it barely possible that the entire point of sending that letter was to create the very situation we are currently experiencing, as part of a power play to get rid of a player LaRussa doesn't see eye to eye with? Just a thought.

Stay tuned for tomorrow's episode, when we find out that Mozeliak's wife is cheating on him with Luhnow, and the SHOCKING RETURN OF WALT JOCKETTY!

"Players like Pujols don't come along once in a lifetime. They never come along." -Buzz Bissinger

by PujolsFor President on Dec 6, 2007 9:38 AM EST   0 recs

lol
Wait! Wait!  Is that Scott Rolen's music?!?!?!  Oh my GOD...he's gonna stomp a mudhole in somebody!!!
"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 6, 2007 12:32 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Rolen's music is
Garbage's "I'm Only Happy When it Rains"...
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 6, 2007 12:37 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Well put, lb.
A little more candor from ownership/management would be appreciated.  If the Cardinals are serious about making moves with a view toward long-term solutions, then just say so.  There will always be fans who insist on the "win now" mode, but I think that the majority would be on board with the improving for the future plan IF they knew there actually was said plan.

OTOH, Cub fans have been saying, "Wait till next year!" for a century now.      

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 6, 2007 9:41 AM EST   0 recs

So far,
the most rational words I've read on these subjects, LB. I'm still giving Mo the benefit of the doubt for now--it's a long way to Spring Training and some decent positive changes could still happen--but he sure hasn't displayed much imagination in his dealings yet. Something like what you suggest above would be far more desirable than continuing this tiresome soap opera. C'mon, Mo--use your head.

by rockin redbird on Dec 6, 2007 9:42 AM EST   0 recs

Polling the players
TLR gives the impression that Rolen was the only player that didn't want him to come back.  Does anyone know precisely what form the polling took?  Was it a secret ballot overseen by the UN?  Or did Don Tony dare players who knew the decision on whether to return was Tony's alone to tell him to his face that they didn't want him back?  I think it is awfully disingenuous to claim complete support from the roster if you gauge that support in a totally biased way.

If his players are so thrilled to have him as manager their on-field performance over the last couple hundred regular season games is kind of an odd way to show it.

I know this really doesn't matter and I probably shouldn't waste everyone's time by bitching about TLR, but I am really disturbed by his latest statements. I think they are completely unprofessional and not in the best interests of the ballclub.  Thoughts?

Those Pilgrims ain't lookin' so proud now...

by giveml on Dec 6, 2007 9:42 AM EST   0 recs

Performance
Like Pujols playing with a pulled hammy and torn ucl.
Eckstein playing with a bad back.
Edmonds playing with a bad foot.
Rolen playing with a bad shoulder.
Mulder playing with a detached rotator cuff.
Kennedy playing with a torn knee.
Aaron Miles and Scott Speizio doing everything but catch.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 9:50 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I disagree.
I don't think the Cards' on-field performance showed a lack of support for TLR, giveml.  If you consider how many body blows the team absorbed during the '07 season (your ace is down and [later] out after one game, another pitcher dies, numerous injuries, etc.), they never quit.  They just kept going in spite of being left for dead by their critics.  Remember lb's zombie analogies?

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 6, 2007 10:00 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

True--
Fact is, over the years it sure seems to me that these guys would tramp thru the fires of hell for LaRussa (02 is another great example). As much as some would like to make this Rolen thing an example of a larger clubhouse problem, I don't buy it. LaRussa has taken this team to 2 WS and a World Championship (with a decidedly inferior team that burst to life when the chance presented itself). Ballplayers respect and remember that. If the Rolen problem was clubhouse wide (no matter how we view LaRussa's specious "polling of the team), he would not have been re-signed.

by rockin redbird on Dec 6, 2007 10:08 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

re: "last couple hundred...
...regular season games"

that's conveniently overlooking the little world series thing that happened...

by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 11:58 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I don't get this.
Why does everyone here seem to side with Rolen on this issue?  Does everyone seem to forget how this whole thing started?  Tony benched Rolen in favor of Spiezio in the 2006 playoffs; Spiezio had been on fire at the plate down the stretch and in the first part of the playoffs, Tony was simply doing what he thought was best for the team to win.  Rolen was the one who publicly stated that he didn't like it and wasn't informed before the benching, but if he's not getting it done he shouldn't be expecting to play anyway

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that Tony has handled it well at all, and his statements in the article are simply shortsighted and poorly timed.  I get the feeling that Tony is playing with management here; playing bad cop to try and spoil a deal and keep Scott around -- he does mindf**king things like that all the time with players, and I don't think that he and Mo are completely on the same page.  

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 6, 2007 12:40 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Was that the beginning?
I thought it had been going on longer than that.  I thought the playoff benching was just one of those "last straw" type things.

by Cardinal70 on Dec 6, 2007 4:05 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Tino Martinez was the Beggining
I have heard, from Martin Kilcion (or however it is spelled), BM (bowel movement? No bernie Miklas) and others that it all started with Tino.  Tino and Scott were tight and the Organization didn't like the direction Rolen's attitude was going with Tino. (Tino getting in Rolens ear sayin' thing like, Joe Torre just lets guys play, Tony messes with the line-up too much.)  They pretty much paid Tino's salary for a year to get him out of here away from their big investment in Rolen.  Then again that could all be hear-say.

by gonzostl on Dec 6, 2007 4:26 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

if even remotely true
about Tino... I dislike him more than I did before... which is quite an accomplishment.

Tony never relied on a player more- and gotten less for it - than with (ugh) Tino.

And that I-used-to-be-a-Yankee BS was Tino's (seemingly) incredible response.  If you can't succeed in St. Louis (great fans, who gave Tino every chance) then where could he?

by the Tewk on Dec 6, 2007 5:42 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Martin
Said it yesterday on "The FOX Hole" on 1380.

by gonzostl on Dec 7, 2007 8:01 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

What is wrong with Mo
We are 'in' on Aaron Rowand but we couldn't even sniff the GREAT contract on Andruw Jones for 2 years/$36 M.  You overpay for it but it is 2 years!  I'd rather overpay there than commit to the 5 years Rowand is demanding.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 9:51 AM EST   0 recs

Dead on
I don't think we need an OF, necessarily, unless we're going to trade Duncan or Ankiel. But that's a damned good contract for the Dodgers -- much better than the 5 and $50-55 M Rowand will get -- infinitely better. Mo should've been in on that, no question -- if he's going to get involved in Rowand.

by houstoncardinal on Dec 6, 2007 9:55 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I vote for choice D:
none of the above.

Outfielders are not a priority - especially aging fat ones like Jones or "contract year in a bandbox" guys like Rowand.

I actually hope Mo is blowing smoke up our arses regarding Rowand.  And Jones would improve this team offensively, sure, but Mo still would have to trade Edmonds (he'd want something of value) and then flip Duncan/prospect for a #2 starter to make us contenders.

It's not in the Cards this year, boys.

by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 9:59 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Threadjack
BTW, if you haven't read Erik's interview with DGoold over at Future Redbirds, what are you waiting for?  It's pure gold.

by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 10:02 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm with Billy Beane
We need impact bats, I don't care if they have to shuffle positions around.  I'm far more concerned with having a 4th and 5th hitters that aren't the worst in the league.
"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Dec 6, 2007 11:54 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Andruw Jones contract structure
$12 M signing bonus
$15 M this year
$9 M in 2009

That makes me cry.  We could have had Andruw Jones for $9 M next year payroll wise, allowing us STILL $30 M to spend on FA.

Come on Mo, be alittle more creative.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:02 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Whoops
flip that:
  1. $9 M
  2. $15 M
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:03 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

No thanks
I understand your clamoring for something, ANYTHING, to get done...but we are not a player away and the Dodgers just might be.

by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 10:08 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Andruw Jones for 2 years allows
  • a RH power bat (allowing Rolen to be moved)
  • a superior CF defender (allowing Edmonds/Ankiel to be moved)
  • another above average MLB OF (allowing Duncan to be traded)
If you've added Andruw's power and defense and given yourself room to move Rolen, Edmonds, Ankiel or Duncan (any combination) to get 1 or 2 starting pitchers...I think you make yourself alot closer to being 1 or 2 players away.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 10:13 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

agreed
See my post a few spots above - yeah we could've signed him, then TRY to move Jimmy, TRY to move Ankiel, and TRY to move Duncan.  You and I know that Mo threw those names out there in trade discussions.  

I get where you're going - but I don't think you can indict Mo on "lack of creativity" that you cite him for just because the market doesn't value the players we'd like the Cards to move.

by silent_bob on Dec 6, 2007 10:27 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Trades and FA signings
are two-way streets, remember. None of us(unless some of you are actually Cardinals employees) know what is really said or offered in any proposed deal, so indicting Mozeliak on a perceived lack of creativity is very premature, IMHO. As Jim Mora once said, "You think you know, but you just don't know."
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 6, 2007 12:26 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

This
is what I always think when people ask - why not trade schumaker, Bo Hart, and Miguel Mejia for Alex Gordon and a prospect?

by Toddius396 on Dec 6, 2007 2:54 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

AJ defense.
I don't think Jones plays very good defense in center any more.  I am not a numbers guy, but I believe the defensive metrics have him rated among the bottom of center fielders today.
I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Dec 6, 2007 4:22 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Number
I am not a big numbers guy when discussing defense.  I like to watch a guy play generally as much as possible to see what he looks like.

I can tell you back in April and he caught a ball in the LF gap about 10 feet from the warning track that made me say "WOW", Jimmy would have been 15 feet away from catching the ball.  Andrew Jones is still very good so don't let people say he is not.  If anything he may have been a step or step and a half slower only due to weight.  He is still top notch.  There is not a CF in baseball who gets jumps like that guy does.  I suggest watching a game and watch how soon AJ makes moves, like when the guy is swinging.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 6, 2007 4:35 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

The Fielding Bible
has him at the top of the CF charts in the NL for '07. It seems reports of his demise have been premature.

by houstoncardinal on Dec 6, 2007 6:15 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I stand corrected.
My apologies.  Thanks for doing the legwork Huston.  
I'm a man, a manly, manly, man. Unknown

by Eckstreem on Dec 7, 2007 4:44 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

i don't understand
how signing him for that price would really add just $9 million to next year's payroll if he's getting a $12 million signing bonus. you could say it only adds $9 million, but it doesn't. he's basically getting $19 million a year for two years, however you want to slice it.

i just don't think this team needs to add any more centerfielders. they already have plenty of candidates there.

by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 12:07 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

correction:
$18 million a year, not $19. i had read elsewhere that it was $38 million deal.

by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 12:15 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Andruw
I do understand why the Cardinals didn't go after Andruw.  While Rasmus sounds great on paper right now, he is still a relatively unknown quantity, and just cannot cover the same amount of ground he used.  His bat and his defense really would have lit a spark on this team I think, plus that would have allowed Edmonds to play LF.  If management was brazen enough to not even ask Edmonds if we would move position that is just foolish.  The guy loves playing here and I think he enjoyed the World Series win more than anyone else.  Getting Andruw would have allowed the team much more flexibility in other deals, and would have helped Edmonds bat.  The move at the very least would have allowed for a competitive team in 09 with a young outfield again anchored by a Gold Glover in CF.

The talk of Rowand is interesting and he would likely be a very popular player in St. Louis from the Eckstein, Oquendo, McEwing mold.  Blue collar guy with better skills than those other guys.  I don't think we should really be concerned with "blocking" Rasmus in center.  He's still young and can play any outfield position well.

Money also needs to stop being an issue with this team.  Didn't we make something like $40 million NET profit off the World Series, plus we've sold out the stadium for basically three years in a row.  The Ballpark village is finally blowing up. Players like Izturis and heaven forbid, Glendon Rusch should not be acceptable for this team anymore.

get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 6, 2007 10:30 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

opening
I do not understand

oops

get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 6, 2007 10:30 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

you are assuming
that edmonds would agree to move to left field. but i don't expect edmonds and jones to be much better (if any) than ludwick, duncan, or ankiel next year, to be honest. this team has so many needs, and another CF is just not one of them at this point.

by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 12:09 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

rasmus
has more value as a CF than he does at the corners. the CF position is not simply interchangeable with the corners. it requires better defense and more speed (among other things), while the corners require more offense (especially LF) because the defensive demands are not as great.

players such as mike cameron and aaron rowand (and even torii hunter) would not be as valuable in the corners because it would not utilize their defensive skills fully, and their bats would rate lower compared to other corner OFs than they do to other CFs. for example, cameron is an acceptable (if declining) hitter for a CF but would be basically unacceptable putting up a .750 OPS in LF. it bothers me to see people complaining about us not going after one of these overpriced CFs when that would really be a bad use of the team's resources.

by willievinceterry on Dec 6, 2007 12:13 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Also, the corners,
esp. RF, require a better arm than CF usually does

by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 12:35 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Blocking Rasmus
But do you agree that blocking Rasmus should not be an issue.  If we keep him the kid is going to play, and maybe it's not such a bad thing to have him in a corner for a year or two.  It would maybe take pressure off of him and allow his bat to develop.  Look at Molina.  His offense was horrible the first half of his first year and he's developed nicely now.  I think a lot of that has to do with gaining comfort.  There's always the mantra in baseball "if you can hit, you'll play."  I think Rasmus' bat is what's most valuable to this team in the future, and as Valatan says your right fielder generally needs to have the best arm and best speed of your outfield . And I think most people who have played baseball would agree with that.  I'm just throwing something out there.  Maybe Edmonds would not have changed positions, but I think he would have, and honestly had Pujols not been forced to 1B, I think Edmonds would be there by now.

Has anyone else noticed how Andruw's deal resembles current NFL contracts?  A lot of money up-front but he would be easy to unload after next year in which the Dodgers pay him 9 mil.  I could easily see them trading him after next year and assuming half that 15 mil, Thus paying him 16 mil for one year because I would bet that signing bonus is a lifetime payment deal, albeit guaranteed money.

get up baby, get up

by jimmybaseball42 on Dec 6, 2007 1:27 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

move him to a corner
or trade 'im for Rasmus.  Or trade Duncan.  A rebuilding team should be stockpiling talent to trade away, and filling in the rest with short term free agents.  

by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 1:33 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

ugh
trade him for pitching, not Rasmus, obviously.

by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 1:33 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

my 2 cents on the outfield
Let Rasmus start relieving Edmonds in center and playing the corners some. Keep Duncan and Ankiel in the corners most of the time. Edmonds true value this year lies in working in with the younger outfielders and teaching them how to play the game well. Keep another bench player that can play the outfield and trade the others for some pitching talent.

by steve on Dec 7, 2007 1:44 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Well, if it was a secret ballot...
how would he know the only dissenter was Rolen? So, yeah, I agree, "disingenuous" fits.
"Players like Pujols don't come along once in a lifetime. They never come along." -Buzz Bissinger

by PujolsFor President on Dec 6, 2007 9:52 AM EST   0 recs

Sorry
That was supposed to be a reply to Hardcore.
"Players like Pujols don't come along once in a lifetime. They never come along." -Buzz Bissinger

by PujolsFor President on Dec 6, 2007 9:53 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Huh?
Why would that be directed at me?
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 9:58 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!
God, I am NOT having a good day. Sorry, I was trying to correct my earlier mistake, and I read the signature too quickly. What I meant, of course, was that I was replying to...oh, forget it, I'd just screw it up again.
"Players like Pujols don't come along once in a lifetime. They never come along." -Buzz Bissinger

by PujolsFor President on Dec 6, 2007 10:10 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

You're absolutely right about ownership
I'd much rather spend some cash and get decent, young players than spend more and get Aaron Rowand. Do we know, however, that it's the owners who are unwilling to eat some salary or Mo who is unwilling to have the team do it? Do we know it's the owner's fault? Not taking their side. I really don't know.

by houstoncardinal on Dec 6, 2007 9:53 AM EST   0 recs

Rolen v La Russa
A few observations in response to LB's timely and thoughtful assessment:
  1. There's not much significance in "picking" Scotty or Tony, since Tony is now signed and you can't go back on that.  But since LB put that teaser out there, I'll bite:  Tony has taken us to 2 World Series and won one, with decent and then inferior talent.  IMHO he offers superior ability to most replacement candidates, in a positon that matters. Scott has become what LB said in an earlier post: a terrific defensive 3B who will hit .275 and drive in 80.  I've always loved his no-nonsense approach, I questioned his attitude about playing time while he was hurting, but from a purely economic perspective, he's just a far more replaceable asset than Tony.
  2. On a more practical level, I'm mystified as to how someone as smart as Tony can be so bad at managing THIS situation.  A letter?  To a guy you spend 10 hours a day, 200 days a year standing right next to?  And now today's news: I don't see how going public with his latest pronouncement can do anything but hurt his organization.  It further enrages Scotty, making it more likely he sulks, becomes a cancer in the clubhouse, etc.  It signals irreparable rift to his suitors: how much less $ might we have had to pick up than the $18M LB mentions without these comments?  Economic systems work on supply and demand Tony, and you live in a very small system and signaled you have a surplus of 3B.  Let us know how that works out for you.  It just smacks of pure ego to me.  
In the end, I don't think DeWit made a mistake resigning Tony, but I do think they should have charted a clearer course with him on the guy that's 12% of your payroll and a known issue.  Or if this is the course they charted . . . hmmm.

As an aside, was anyone else curious why there's a stenotype machine next to Tony in this picture?  Was he doing a press conference or being deposed??
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/files/photos/2/2b5fb5bb-962f-4dab-8a40-7293d0c0804f.html?SITE=MOSTP& ;SECTION=SPORTS&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

by Secret Weapon on Dec 6, 2007 9:56 AM EST   0 recs

Excellent Post, LB...
I'm an infrequent poster, but I read VEB everyday...I'm not a sabrmatician like many of you here, but I try to follow along and understand...I look at things from the point of view of the "average" fan, I guess, and one of my beefs with the Cards is what I consider their lack of candor...I understand you want to fill the stadium, but don't treat me like a dope...despite what you might hear on the talk shows and read on the boards, I think many, if not most fans understand that we have had it pretty good the last 10 years or so, and about half the teams in baseball would trade places with us in a heartbeat...in that regard, I wonder just how much of an attendance hit the Cards would take if they spoke honestly and realistically about the prospects for the 2008 season...maybe I'm wrong, but I think a decent percentage of the fan base (and I'm not sure exactly how much that is) would accept a year or two to "reload" back into contention...besides that, this is a well loved franchise that still has  strong regional appeal and will draw well no matter how bad the team is, if the fan base feels the f.o. has a master plan and is willing to stick to it...I've been watching Cardinal baseball for over 40 years, and the team has never really bottomed out attendance wise, unlike places like San Francisco, San Diego and even the south side of Chicago...the difference between then and now is that there is an educated and vocal community of bloggers and sabrmaticians who cannot be fooled and b.s.'ed into believing that everything is okay when it's not...to the Cardinal brain trust, I say: try some honesty, folks...you might be surprised how receptive and supportive your fan base would be.

by tbell61 on Dec 6, 2007 9:58 AM EST   0 recs

From a purely (cynical) business standpoint...
...all any ballclub needs to do to keep ticket sales "up" is contend for a division title late into the season. Fans tend to be optimistic; if the team is, say, four games out on September 1, those games still have meaning! Witness last season's "Zombie" Redbirds; against all odds, they still had a shot at the playoffs until their September collapse.

I agree that the Cardinals have committed several PR blunders over the past several seasons; La Russa should have kept his mouth shut regarding Rolen. But a bunch of those "blunders" concerned injuries to Cardinal players... it seems as if the "rosy" scenarios never worked out; whoever was injured always wound up with the "worst-case" outcome! (Rolen, Mulder, Edmonds, and on and on...) Sometimes the best answer a ballclub can give the public is "I don't know... we hope (player) will be back in (time period), but we'll have to wait and see how he progresses."

The Cardinals don't have to beat the Red Sox/Yankees/Tigers/Angels (or even the Mets) in the regular season; they only have to beat out the other NL Central teams to make the playoffs, where (as in 2006) anything can happen.

If Rolen really wants out of St. Louis, the best way for him to get his wish is to come to ST and mash the ball; a hot start would make him more attractive to those teams looking for a third-sacker.

I agree that being more forthright with the fans about the club's chances would be viewed favorably by most of the fanbase; the folks that spew on the STLToday forums or those who comment even here aren't necessarily those who buy tickets!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Dec 6, 2007 12:00 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

couldn't agree more
The real Cards fans don't care if the team needs a year or two to rebuild. We'll keep watching them.

On a more cynical note though, we'll watch them as much as we can due to the regional blackout &!#)(!. I live in Alaska and the only games I get to see are Yanks/Sox and whoever the Mariners are losing to. Selig needs to pull his head out of somewhere and do away with the regional blackouts.

by steve on Dec 7, 2007 1:53 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

It's Negotiating
I think what Mo is doing right now is setting expectations. He's asking for more than he knows he can get, so when he comes back in a week or 3 and 'concedes' to throwing in 1/4 of Scotty's salary, it sounds downright reasonable to the team that could use a fantastic 3rd basement and may just jump at it with a good young player and a prospect.

by Birds on the Matt on Dec 6, 2007 10:02 AM EST   0 recs

ug..
basemen.. I don't know anyone with a 2nd basement much less a 3rd.

by Birds on the Matt on Dec 6, 2007 10:03 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

That made me
snort coffee through my nose. Thanks for the laugh.
"It's always about the money. Anyone who