daze of our lives
re the recent conflict over diaries: please see this thread for an update. more on this subject to come later.
now for the other, more consequential conflict taking place in cardinal-land. i guess it's official, if it wasn't already: the cards have become the yankees. they're as much about ego and personality now as about baseball; what the participants say about each other off the field generates at least as much interest as what they do on the field. i'm referring, of course, to la russa's blunt remarks about rolen, capsulized in this diary and in joe strauss's article this morning. to me, the content of la russa's remarks is far less interesting than the subtext: he now regards the war w/ rolen as a competition. and tony, as in all things, very badly wants to win.
i have no idea which guy is "right" here, nor do i much care; in a clash of personalities like this, the fault almost always lies on both sides. from a purely baseball standpoint, if i could only have one of these two guys in my organization, either rolen or la russa --- i'd take scotty.
having said that: i'd deal scotty in a heartbeat if the cards could get a decent return. so far they can't, and that seems to be largely because the owners won't pick up much of rolen's salary. this is one instance in which the worn-out and overused "cards are cheap!!" accusation actually sticks, imho. is it any wonder that teams won't part with premium talent to acquire a player with rolen's salary, health issues, and recent track record? no duh. but there has been more interest in scotty than i expected --- and if the cards were willing to pick up, say, half the tab, they might actually be able to get a deal done. the acquiring team would get him for, in essence, 3 yrs / $18m; that's a bargain in a marketplace where guys like gary mathews and aaron rowand can command upwards of $10m a season. suppose the cards were to offer rolen plus $18 mill to the giants, who have expressed interest in scott and possess a surplus of young arms (from which they reportedly are willing to deal). mozeliak asks for matt cain in return. from a payroll standpoint, the $18m the cards are sending out to san francisco becomes part of matt cain's "salary"; it doesn't go into his pocket, but it's part of the price the cards are paying for his services. that gets added to the money that actually does go into cain's pocket --- he's 1 year away from arb eligibility, so he stands to earn an aggregate of about $8m over the next three years --- and you wind up paying about $26m over three years for cain. in this marketplace, a pitcher of his ability is a stinkin' bargain at 3 yr / $26m.
of course, we don't know if the giants would go for that specific deal; maybe they'd counter by offering noah lowry and jonathan sanchez, or maybe they'd tell mo "sorry, not interested." but i think that's how the team should go about it. approach the dodgers and offer rolen + $18m for andy la roche or chad billingsley; approach the angels and offer the same for jered weaver, or for ervin santana plus a prospect. and once the trade is completed, if there's still a hole at 3d base the cards still have half of rolen's salary left over to pay his replacement (let's just say mike lamb for the purposes of discussion). the objective would be to convert the $36m on rolen's contract into a package of talent that looks something like matt cain and mike lamb --- a package of talent that's younger and at least as good but not a penny more expensive; a package of talent that's worth the money.
i've often defended the cards' unwillingness to spend, because i've often thought the expenditures under consideration were unwise ones; refusal to make a bad investment does not constitute cheapness, it constitutes intelligence. but in this case, spending some $$$$ might rid the cards of a problematic relationship and bring young talent in return --- a good investment. it's the owners' job to facilitate that possibility and give mozeliak a decent product to offer at market. so far, it appears they haven't opened the coffers far enough to empower him.
one of the teams that has expressed interest in rolen, the dodgers, signed andruw jones last night to a deal worth 2 years and $36m --- another reason i think rolen at 3 yrs / $18m would fetch lots of interest. in this market, the jones deal looks like a bargain; i'd a lot rather have him on that contract than torii hunter for 5 / $90m, or aaron rowand on whatever dumb deal he ends up getting. while i think the cards could have afforded andruw for 2 years at that price, i don't view him as the type of player mo should be looking at. if the cards were better positioned to contend in the short term, then sure --- great buy. i think the dodgers will be pleased with their acquisition. but he wouldn't have got the cardinals where they need to go. he's expensive, past 30, and coming off a bad season --- the type of player the cards already have enough of; the type of player that got the team into its current mess.
step back and think about this team for just one second. about 20 percent of its 2008 payroll is tied up in three players --- encarnacion ($6.5m), mulder ($6.5m), and carpenter ($10.5m) --- with almost no value. one can't play at all; one hasn't been any good since 2005 and is coming off back-to-back surgeries; and one will miss 2/3 of the season before attempting his comeback from back-to-back surgeries. another 20 percent of the payroll --- edmonds ($8m) and rolen ($12m) --- is tied up in old, injury-prone, badly diminished players. those 5 contracts are among the 7 richest ones on the team, and they're all liabilities --- big ones. so big that only a team with a peaking farm system could hope to overcome them. there is a line of argument which contends that the team can be fixed via the acquisition of still more pricey, injured and/or declining stars. i reject that notion.
mozeliak was quoted the other day like so: "I feel really torn in trying to address '08 to make some impact to make sure we're competitive within our division, where it might sacrifice something for '09 and '10." that quote gives me comfort. it tells me that mo has his priorities in order: 2008 is a lower priority than 2009 and beyond. that's a rational approach, and mo should stick to it. but his patience will be tested by the win-now demands of fans and (in some cases) the media. i think it would be constructive for the cards to drop the pretense that they are competing in 2008 . . . . ok, from a marketing standpoint maybe they can't afford to do that. but they could say: "we'll be as competitive as our veterans make us. we'll be competitive if edmonds can avoid injuries; if rolen's shoulder is healthy; if mulder is able to contribute; if carpenter can give us a lift at the end of the year. we're always on the lookout for opportunities to improve the team, but they have to be long-term solutions as opposed to quick fixes. when we have a clean shot at a long-term solution, we'll bag it; in the meantime we'll rely on the warriors who won us 2 pennants and a world title."
some people would scream bloody murder at that statement, but others would appreciate the candor. fans get upset when their intelligence is insulted --- when the team offers empty promises ("we're looking for upgrades, we intend to compete") that it knows it probably can't live up to. candor might hurt the cardinals' ticket sales in the short term, but it won't do any long-term damage. lack of candor, on the other hand, damages the franchise's credibility and makes people cynical. reading the comments here every day, and at all the other cardinal blogs and the p-d boards, it's clear that cynicism is spiking. no matter what happens --- antonetti doesn't come here, la russa returns, a trade does or doesn't happen, an injured player does or doesn't come back healthy, etc etc --- the organization immediately gets denounced for acting in bad faith. while i don't think most of those accusations are warranted, i totally understand why people go there. they go there because the franchise is so far from honest in its communication. the cardinals talk down to their customers; they won't tell us truths they think we don't want to hear, or truths they think we can't handle. instead they serve up harmless little lies --- except over time and in the aggregate, the lies do inflict harm; frustration mounts, resentment builds.
the relationship between rolen and la russa seems to have deteriorated due to bad communication (or total lack thereof); there's a danger that a similar dynamic could pollute the relationship between the fan base and team --- probably not to the point of divorce, but certainly to the point of trial separation. there are two sides to every relationship. fans have to have realistic expectations; the franchise has to cultivate them. it's not happening that way right now.
* * * * * * * * * * *
marketplace note: milton bradley's docs like what they see, according to ken rosenthal:Bradley is expected to be ready by either Opening Day or April 15, and figures to land a one-year contract after some of the more prominent outfielders are signed.
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comments
Comments
Rolen vs. LaRussa
I do like that they just aren't giving away Rolen, but I, like you, would hope that if they could get good young talent in return, they'd think about paying some of the salary.
by Cardinal70 on Dec 6, 2007 9:11 AM EST 0 recs
Simply down 2 two
I feel there are two major opposing forces adjusting the free agency pay-scale: the greater value placed on team-controlled youth by organizations and the spoils of revenue sharing. The free agents want thier cut, therefore teams are (finally!) starting to appreciate the value and upside of team-controlled youth appropriately.
Where this seems important to us is the timing of re-upping Albert should we (I hope!) keep him. I think the dust will settle on contract adjustments soon. Therefore, I feel the best time to approach Albert about extending his time in StL would probably be later 2009. Now, my hope is by late 2009 we are competitive, have a youngish team with upside that tends to re-inspire, keep focused veterans. I also hope we wisely spend our freed budget dollars. I don't want to enter that time with a whole year or so of deteriorating team chemistry due to Rolen/LaRussa. I also don't want to enter that time still payroll constricted and talent-challenged/non-competitive. I think this would have a huge influence on Albert's likeliness to remain here. And, probably a huge influence on how much he would accept to stay here.
I could live with taking 2 months of 2008 to raise Rolen's value or try to somehow resolve relationships or whatever. The Cardinals simply cannot let it go on longer.
And, speaking of Pujols, how does he feel about all this now? It seems I somehow got the impression he was baffled by Rolen's dislike of Tony and that Albert has great respect for Tony. Was that speculation? Did I read that somewhere? I cannot remember. Do Rolen and Albert have a strained relationship? I know which of those two I would pick!
by RedbirdRay on
Dec 6, 2007 10:26 AM EST
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Dead on, LB.
OTOH, there is an old principle of PR and advertising--that if your customers don't understand what you're trying to get across to them, you aren't doing your job; rationalize all you want, but at the end of the day your image and reputation are your responsibility. So while I don't think the Cardinals' sins w.r.t. PR are as great as many seem to think, it is their job to fix it. A little honesty from the front office would go a long way.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 6, 2007 9:18 AM EST 0 recs
Wondering what happened
by gonzostl on Dec 6, 2007 9:31 AM EST 0 recs
Lets do something? Anything!!
Well I'm a Card fan sitting up here in Michigan & yes its COLD! Unless your a tiger fan, especially with all the hot deals they are making. Dave Dombroski GM for the Tigers has been heralded a genius for all the trades he's getting done. I keep waiting for something to happen for the Cards & all I read is what to do & what not to do.
Lets do something! Mike Illitch owner of the Tigers & the Little Ceasars pizza empire is not shy to spend money this off season. Since Budweiser is a sponsor of the Cards should I invest my money in beer or continue to buy $5 large pizza's because come spring the Tigers ar loaded with toppings!
by CliffNotes on Dec 6, 2007 9:33 AM EST 0 recs
What is Rolen Worth?
I liked him as a player, but one has to wonder if he has ANY hitting left in him. Will Carroll speculated that his shoulder very likely can't withstand regular play. Based on the last 1.5 seasons, it is quite possible he will never slug .450 again over a season. Jeff Bagwell went from being a top first baseman to worthless pretty quickly.
If Rolen bounces back next year, you could look bad trading him. However, if he slugs .480 for April, .425 for May, .350 for June, and in July announces his shoulder is bothering him and he needs to go on the DL, I think you'd be pretty happy if you had simply given him away to someone willing to take some of his salary.
I think the second scenario is likely enough that teams have to worry. He is a very risky player--he has the potential to have decent upside, but he also could be an expensive non-contributor for 3 years. If I was a GM who traded anything for Rolen and it didn't work out, I'd be worried about explaining how I didn't see it coming.
If the Cardinals want talent for Rolen and want to pick up none of his salary, they are going to have trouble moving him. They need to realize that it is quite possible they will pay Rolen $36 million over the next three years and still need someone to play 3B.
by tarakas on Dec 6, 2007 9:35 AM EST 0 recs
The soap opera analogy
Stay tuned for tomorrow's episode, when we find out that Mozeliak's wife is cheating on him with Luhnow, and the SHOCKING RETURN OF WALT JOCKETTY!
by PujolsFor President on Dec 6, 2007 9:38 AM EST 0 recs
lol
by fourstick on
Dec 6, 2007 12:32 PM EST
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Rolen's music is
by cardsrul on
Dec 6, 2007 12:37 PM EST
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Well put, lb.
OTOH, Cub fans have been saying, "Wait till next year!" for a century now.
by cardsgirl95 on Dec 6, 2007 9:41 AM EST 0 recs
So far,
by rockin redbird on Dec 6, 2007 9:42 AM EST 0 recs
Polling the players
If his players are so thrilled to have him as manager their on-field performance over the last couple hundred regular season games is kind of an odd way to show it.
I know this really doesn't matter and I probably shouldn't waste everyone's time by bitching about TLR, but I am really disturbed by his latest statements. I think they are completely unprofessional and not in the best interests of the ballclub. Thoughts?
by giveml on Dec 6, 2007 9:42 AM EST 0 recs
Performance
Eckstein playing with a bad back.
Edmonds playing with a bad foot.
Rolen playing with a bad shoulder.
Mulder playing with a detached rotator cuff.
Kennedy playing with a torn knee.
Aaron Miles and Scott Speizio doing everything but catch.
by Hardcore Legend on
Dec 6, 2007 9:50 AM EST
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I disagree.
by cardsgirl95 on
Dec 6, 2007 10:00 AM EST
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True--
by rockin redbird on
Dec 6, 2007 10:08 AM EST
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re: "last couple hundred...
that's conveniently overlooking the little world series thing that happened...
by willievinceterry on
Dec 6, 2007 11:58 AM EST
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I don't get this.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think that Tony has handled it well at all, and his statements in the article are simply shortsighted and poorly timed. I get the feeling that Tony is playing with management here; playing bad cop to try and spoil a deal and keep Scott around -- he does mindf**king things like that all the time with players, and I don't think that he and Mo are completely on the same page.
by fourstick on
Dec 6, 2007 12:40 PM EST
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Was that the beginning?
by Cardinal70 on
Dec 6, 2007 4:05 PM EST
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Tino Martinez was the Beggining
by gonzostl on
Dec 6, 2007 4:26 PM EST
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if even remotely true
Tony never relied on a player more- and gotten less for it - than with (ugh) Tino.
And that I-used-to-be-a-Yankee BS was Tino's (seemingly) incredible response. If you can't succeed in St. Louis (great fans, who gave Tino every chance) then where could he?
by the Tewk on
Dec 6, 2007 5:42 PM EST
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Martin
by gonzostl on
Dec 7, 2007 8:01 AM EST
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What is wrong with Mo
by Hardcore Legend on Dec 6, 2007 9:51 AM EST 0 recs
Dead on
by houstoncardinal on
Dec 6, 2007 9:55 AM EST
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I vote for choice D:
Outfielders are not a priority - especially aging fat ones like Jones or "contract year in a bandbox" guys like Rowand.
I actually hope Mo is blowing smoke up our arses regarding Rowand. And Jones would improve this team offensively, sure, but Mo still would have to trade Edmonds (he'd want something of value) and then flip Duncan/prospect for a #2 starter to make us contenders.
It's not in the Cards this year, boys.
by silent_bob on
Dec 6, 2007 9:59 AM EST
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Threadjack
by silent_bob on
Dec 6, 2007 10:02 AM EST
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I'm with Billy Beane
by rocKStark5 on
Dec 6, 2007 11:54 AM EST
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Andruw Jones contract structure
$15 M this year
$9 M in 2009
That makes me cry. We could have had Andruw Jones for $9 M next year payroll wise, allowing us STILL $30 M to spend on FA.
Come on Mo, be alittle more creative.
by Hardcore Legend on
Dec 6, 2007 10:02 AM EST
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Whoops
- $9 M
- $15 M
by Hardcore Legend on
Dec 6, 2007 10:03 AM EST
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No thanks
by silent_bob on
Dec 6, 2007 10:08 AM EST
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Andruw Jones for 2 years allows
- a RH power bat (allowing Rolen to be moved)
- a superior CF defender (allowing Edmonds/Ankiel to be moved)
- another above average MLB OF (allowing Duncan to be traded)
by Hardcore Legend on
Dec 6, 2007 10:13 AM EST
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agreed
I get where you're going - but I don't think you can indict Mo on "lack of creativity" that you cite him for just because the market doesn't value the players we'd like the Cards to move.
by silent_bob on
Dec 6, 2007 10:27 AM EST
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Trades and FA signings
by cardsrul on
Dec 6, 2007 12:26 PM EST
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This
by Toddius396 on
Dec 6, 2007 2:54 PM EST
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AJ defense.
by Eckstreem on
Dec 6, 2007 4:22 PM EST
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Number
I can tell you back in April and he caught a ball in the LF gap about 10 feet from the warning track that made me say "WOW", Jimmy would have been 15 feet away from catching the ball. Andrew Jones is still very good so don't let people say he is not. If anything he may have been a step or step and a half slower only due to weight. He is still top notch. There is not a CF in baseball who gets jumps like that guy does. I suggest watching a game and watch how soon AJ makes moves, like when the guy is swinging.
by ICbirdfan on
Dec 6, 2007 4:35 PM EST
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The Fielding Bible
by houstoncardinal on
Dec 6, 2007 6:15 PM EST
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I stand corrected.
by Eckstreem on
Dec 7, 2007 4:44 AM EST
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i don't understand
i just don't think this team needs to add any more centerfielders. they already have plenty of candidates there.
by willievinceterry on
Dec 6, 2007 12:07 PM EST
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correction:
by willievinceterry on
Dec 6, 2007 12:15 PM EST
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Andruw
The talk of Rowand is interesting and he would likely be a very popular player in St. Louis from the Eckstein, Oquendo, McEwing mold. Blue collar guy with better skills than those other guys. I don't think we should really be concerned with "blocking" Rasmus in center. He's still young and can play any outfield position well.
Money also needs to stop being an issue with this team. Didn't we make something like $40 million NET profit off the World Series, plus we've sold out the stadium for basically three years in a row. The Ballpark village is finally blowing up. Players like Izturis and heaven forbid, Glendon Rusch should not be acceptable for this team anymore.
by jimmybaseball42 on
Dec 6, 2007 10:30 AM EST
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opening
oops
by jimmybaseball42 on
Dec 6, 2007 10:30 AM EST
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you are assuming
by willievinceterry on
Dec 6, 2007 12:09 PM EST
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rasmus
players such as mike cameron and aaron rowand (and even torii hunter) would not be as valuable in the corners because it would not utilize their defensive skills fully, and their bats would rate lower compared to other corner OFs than they do to other CFs. for example, cameron is an acceptable (if declining) hitter for a CF but would be basically unacceptable putting up a .750 OPS in LF. it bothers me to see people complaining about us not going after one of these overpriced CFs when that would really be a bad use of the team's resources.
by willievinceterry on
Dec 6, 2007 12:13 PM EST
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Also, the corners,
by Valatan on
Dec 6, 2007 12:35 PM EST
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Blocking Rasmus
Has anyone else noticed how Andruw's deal resembles current NFL contracts? A lot of money up-front but he would be easy to unload after next year in which the Dodgers pay him 9 mil. I could easily see them trading him after next year and assuming half that 15 mil, Thus paying him 16 mil for one year because I would bet that signing bonus is a lifetime payment deal, albeit guaranteed money.
by jimmybaseball42 on
Dec 6, 2007 1:27 PM EST
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move him to a corner
by Valatan on
Dec 6, 2007 1:33 PM EST
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my 2 cents on the outfield
by steve on
Dec 7, 2007 1:44 AM EST
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Well, if it was a secret ballot...
by PujolsFor President on Dec 6, 2007 9:52 AM EST 0 recs
Sorry
by PujolsFor President on
Dec 6, 2007 9:53 AM EST
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Huh?
by Hardcore Legend on
Dec 6, 2007 9:58 AM EST
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AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!
by PujolsFor President on
Dec 6, 2007 10:10 AM EST
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You're absolutely right about ownership
by houstoncardinal on Dec 6, 2007 9:53 AM EST 0 recs
Rolen v La Russa
- There's not much significance in "picking" Scotty or Tony, since Tony is now signed and you can't go back on that. But since LB put that teaser out there, I'll bite: Tony has taken us to 2 World Series and won one, with decent and then inferior talent. IMHO he offers superior ability to most replacement candidates, in a positon that matters. Scott has become what LB said in an earlier post: a terrific defensive 3B who will hit .275 and drive in 80. I've always loved his no-nonsense approach, I questioned his attitude about playing time while he was hurting, but from a purely economic perspective, he's just a far more replaceable asset than Tony.
- On a more practical level, I'm mystified as to how someone as smart as Tony can be so bad at managing THIS situation. A letter? To a guy you spend 10 hours a day, 200 days a year standing right next to? And now today's news: I don't see how going public with his latest pronouncement can do anything but hurt his organization. It further enrages Scotty, making it more likely he sulks, becomes a cancer in the clubhouse, etc. It signals irreparable rift to his suitors: how much less $ might we have had to pick up than the $18M LB mentions without these comments? Economic systems work on supply and demand Tony, and you live in a very small system and signaled you have a surplus of 3B. Let us know how that works out for you. It just smacks of pure ego to me.
As an aside, was anyone else curious why there's a stenotype machine next to Tony in this picture? Was he doing a press conference or being deposed??
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/files/photos/2/2b5fb5bb-962f-4dab-8a40-7293d0c0804f.html?SITE=MOSTP& ;SECTION=SPORTS&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
by Secret Weapon on Dec 6, 2007 9:56 AM EST 0 recs
Excellent Post, LB...
by tbell61 on Dec 6, 2007 9:58 AM EST 0 recs
From a purely (cynical) business standpoint...
I agree that the Cardinals have committed several PR blunders over the past several seasons; La Russa should have kept his mouth shut regarding Rolen. But a bunch of those "blunders" concerned injuries to Cardinal players... it seems as if the "rosy" scenarios never worked out; whoever was injured always wound up with the "worst-case" outcome! (Rolen, Mulder, Edmonds, and on and on...) Sometimes the best answer a ballclub can give the public is "I don't know... we hope (player) will be back in (time period), but we'll have to wait and see how he progresses."
The Cardinals don't have to beat the Red Sox/Yankees/Tigers/Angels (or even the Mets) in the regular season; they only have to beat out the other NL Central teams to make the playoffs, where (as in 2006) anything can happen.
If Rolen really wants out of St. Louis, the best way for him to get his wish is to come to ST and mash the ball; a hot start would make him more attractive to those teams looking for a third-sacker.
I agree that being more forthright with the fans about the club's chances would be viewed favorably by most of the fanbase; the folks that spew on the STLToday forums or those who comment even here aren't necessarily those who buy tickets!
by The Ol Goaler on
Dec 6, 2007 12:00 PM EST
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couldn't agree more
On a more cynical note though, we'll watch them as much as we can due to the regional blackout &!#)(!. I live in Alaska and the only games I get to see are Yanks/Sox and whoever the Mariners are losing to. Selig needs to pull his head out of somewhere and do away with the regional blackouts.
by steve on
Dec 7, 2007 1:53 AM EST
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It's Negotiating
by Birds on the Matt on Dec 6, 2007 10:02 AM EST 0 recs
ug..
by Birds on the Matt on
Dec 6, 2007 10:03 AM EST
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