Marlins. Salary. Amazed.

by nycbirdo on Dec 5, 2007 6:03 PM EST

I'm braving the diary semi-embargo to post what I think are some pretty amazing bits of information I've uncovered after reading about the Marlins/Tigers trade. To celebrate the occasion, I will use capital letters.

Lots of thanks to Cot's, by the way. That really is a fantastic site.

First of all, with Miggy and Dontrelle gone, the Marlins' team payroll for 2008 has been estimated at about $10 million. In fact, it's my understanding that it would only be that high if they (as expected) put recent acquisition Andrew Miller in their starting rotation, rather than in the minor leagues, which would cause him to be paid $1M+ because he signed a major-league contract when he was drafted. (Bonus amazing fact before I get to the main amazing fact section: at $1M+, Miller, who was pitching for his college team less than two years ago, would be the highest paid player on their team; in fact, I believe his salary would be more than double the second-highest.)

So. A team playing for $10M. Here come the amazing facts:

Here is the complete list of MLB teams that will NOT pay at least $10M to ONE PLAYER in 2008: Marlins (obviously), Nats, Rays, Pirates. That's it. That's the list. Also, the Pirates barely make it, as they're paying $9.5M to Matty Mo. The Twins would be added if they traded Santana.
Here is a list of just some of the players who will be taking home more than $10M in 2008, which, I'll reiterate in complete shock, is MORE THAN THE ENTIRE MARLINS TEAM: Mike Hampton ($15M), Carl Pavano ($11M), Richie Sexson ($14M), Billy Wagner ($10.5M), Pat Burrell ($14M), J.D. Drew ($14.5M), Jose Contreras ($10M), Pudge Rodriguez ($13M). Julio Lugo just misses, at $9M.
The Yankees could field almost an entire team with players each making $10M. Here's the list of their everyday players who don't make $10M: Robby Cano and whoever takes the 1b/dh spot Giambi isn't filling. They also have three SPs and a closer making $10M+. So, in a game in an NL park, the Yanks could start Pettitte, play Pavano at 2b (because they might as well get something out of him), use Mussina in middle relief, and have Rivera close, and they wouldn't play a single guy making less than eight figures.
Although I don't have (read: Cot's doesn't have) the exact year-by-year breakdown of Alex Rodriguez's new contract, the 10-year, $275 million deal means that, on average, and on a game-by-game basis, A-Rod will have made more than $10M by the end of the 59th game of the season, which typically falls in early June.

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Comments

slight correction...

... Relief pitcher Kevin Greg is prolly going to arbitration with the Marlins, and is expected to get $2.5mn next year.

http://tinyurl.com/3dqupk

by kindred on Dec 5, 2007 6:01 PM EST reply actions

good catch

the World Wide Leader had Greg(g?) at something like $575K for next season, which is what I based that on. but they certainly could be wrong.

does this mean boras is human?

by nycbirdo on Dec 5, 2007 6:08 PM EST up reply actions

Still...

It's pretty freakin' amazing.

by SethWestern on Dec 5, 2007 6:05 PM EST reply actions

brave man

and a good diary. but here is what's really amazing (and sad): at least half of the players on that $10m team would be starters on the $100m cardinals. preferred starters in bold:

marlins		cards
olivo	c	molina
jacobs	1b	pujols
uggla	2b	kennedy
ramirez	ss	izturis
n/a	3b	rolen
willingham	lf	duncan
maybin	cf	edmonds
hermida	rf	ankiel

4 of the marlins are clearly superior, and centerfield is about a wash. in other words, only 3 st louis players could crack that $10m team's starting lineup.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2007 6:07 PM EST reply actions

and the cards are trying to trade

one of the 3 . . . .

by lboros on Dec 5, 2007 6:07 PM EST up reply actions

that is a sad, sad table

though i think dunc and willingham is a push.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 5, 2007 6:09 PM EST up reply actions

there's a case to be made

that willingham / duncan are equal. but once you adjust for playing time, defense, and ballpark, i think willingham probably comes out ahead.

by lboros on Dec 5, 2007 6:18 PM EST up reply actions

agreed

that willingham on an everyday basis is probaly a better player, and most notably, a better outfielder.

duncan spent more time on the field this year and has more pop than willingham.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 5, 2007 6:26 PM EST up reply actions

ugh

struggling for a rebuttal here. um, ankiel has upside? that's so awful.

does this mean boras is human?

by nycbirdo on Dec 5, 2007 6:14 PM EST up reply actions

hermida is far and away the better player

at least right now.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 5, 2007 6:15 PM EST up reply actions

absolutely.

i SAID i was struggling.

does this mean boras is human?

by nycbirdo on Dec 5, 2007 6:19 PM EST up reply actions

yeah

and i MADE a comment reaffirming your struggles.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 5, 2007 6:27 PM EST up reply actions

relax, man

i almost put one of those smiley faces after "i SAID i was struggling" to make sure you knew i meant it good-naturedly. then i thought, you know, i've never put a smiley face on a post on a blog, and i'm not sure i want to start now. i was hoping the tone i intended would be obvious without it, but i guess to you it wasn't. maybe people are all still on edge about the diaries thing in general, a fiasco which, i'm glad to say, i missed due to being at a concert.

in any event: i meant it good-naturedly. the last thing i want this diary to be about is arguing, especially about something like whether jeremy hermida is better than rick ankiel.

does this mean boras is human?

by nycbirdo on Dec 5, 2007 6:38 PM EST up reply actions

maybe i shouldn't use caps anymore

i just wrote that one word in caps because you wrote on word in caps. i was just playing along.

sorry if it seemed like i was yelling or something.

by stlcardinalsfang on Dec 5, 2007 7:18 PM EST up reply actions

my bad

/slinks away

does this mean boras is human?

by nycbirdo on Dec 5, 2007 10:58 PM EST up reply actions

We all need to agree not to take each other

so seriously. We should be able to banter without starting world war III.

The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Dec 5, 2007 10:51 PM EST up reply actions

not to mention

their starting pitching. i would say that starting pitching is basically a wash after you remove wainwright. and factor in defense.

... i guess we have them beat on relievers...

by johnstonburg on Dec 5, 2007 9:59 PM EST up reply actions

Yeah...

Sergio Mitre is going to arb too... I don't know what he'll get but it has to be >$1 million. That said, your point stands: the Fish are running a lean operation.

Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Dec 5, 2007 6:07 PM EST reply actions

Minor league

The Marlins ought to be contracted for this. They are essentially a glorified free-agent farm team at this point, developing prospects and selling them to the highest bidder for more prospects to develop, all while their owners rake in TV and revenue-sharing money.

It's a joke. I can't wait for the Commissioner to take a stand on this critical, competition-affecting issue.

by blove121 on Dec 5, 2007 6:09 PM EST reply actions

Not quite

They have won 2 world championships in the last 10 years! I'm pretty sure they know what they are doing.

Let's build for '09...

by Born in 82 on Dec 5, 2007 6:14 PM EST up reply actions

joke?

i'm going to assume you're serious and then disagree. if you were joking, mea culpa.

my point with this diary was certainly to point out the absurdity of the marlins' salary structure, but i meant to do it in the context of the overall mlb payroll structure. i didn't mean: wow, the marlins are cheap. because while i do think they're cheap in the sense of "frugal" and "budget-conscious," i don't think they're cheap in terms of "tightwads."

the marlins have won 2 world series titles in the last 10 years.
see lboros' table above - at least as far as their everyday lineup goes, they're doing better with their $10M than the cards are with their $100M.

does this mean boras is human?

by nycbirdo on Dec 5, 2007 6:18 PM EST up reply actions

That truly is

amazing. It makes the Marlins look purty intelligent. They usually manage to win some games with their young, cheap talent.

The other side of this would be how good their team could still be if they had kept their best departing players to go with what they've got.

Imagine a rotation including Beckett, Burnett, Penny, Willis. Of course, had they not traded Beckett they wouldn't have Hanley Ramirez or Anibal Sanchez. They seem to get good value when they trade players, too.

by Toddius396 on Dec 5, 2007 6:15 PM EST reply actions

They win some games...

but not many... They lost 91 games last year and now they're down their best hitter. That would be like the Cardinals losing Pujols. If Maybin is worth a couple wins in '08 the Fish are a 95-100 loss team.

Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Dec 5, 2007 6:39 PM EST up reply actions

maybin looked awful last year

the BP guys are saying that while the marlins will have him starting in cf, maybin should really be in the minor leagues to start the year, and maybe miller too.

does this mean boras is human?

by nycbirdo on Dec 5, 2007 6:41 PM EST up reply actions

I totally agree...

I was being charitable by saying he was worth a couple wins. That said, all he has to do is be better than Amezaga.

Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Dec 5, 2007 6:44 PM EST up reply actions

good god, amezaga is awful

i think the bp guys' point - which i don't know nearly enough about player development models to comment on - wasn't that maybin couldn't outperform amezaga, but rather that by putting maybin in the major leagues so early, the marlins would hurt maybin's development as a player.

my initial thought would be, if maybin is getting regular playing time no matter what level he's at, why does it hurt him to play in the big leagues? again, i don't know enough about development to know the answer.

does this mean boras is human?

by nycbirdo on Dec 5, 2007 6:50 PM EST up reply actions

I'd be curious to know...

Of the players on the Marlins 25/40 man rosters, how many are home-grown prospects/players, and how many have they acquired via trade? And furthermore, how does that number compare to other major league teams? To the Cardinals?

by SethWestern on Dec 5, 2007 6:26 PM EST reply actions

I think the next CBA is going to have to either

up league minimum or decrease the window of team control. The Marlins are just gaming the system--developing a bunch of prospects, while collecting revenue sharing money that they will use to sign players to long term, but moveable, contracts. At the same time, it pisses off their fans.

The whole plan only works because of revenue sharing, and because veterans' value has expanded vastly, while young players cost the same as they used to. You probably can't do anything about revenue sharing (though there are certainly tweaks to be made to the system, such as including tv revenue in the calculation of the contributions), but if league average salary has skyrocketed over the past ten years, it seems somewhat fair that the starting salary should at least get the same percentage bump.

by Valatan on Dec 5, 2007 7:36 PM EST reply actions

absolutely true

There's a great discussion about this over at Baseball Think factory. Stated without proof (post #19) is that the marlins received:

"national revenues (tv etc) for 2007 (which are evenly shared) come to around $60M per team"
"$45M local revenues (net stadium expenses) and $32M more from revenue sharing in 2006"
AND they are asking for money from the state of Florida to help build a new stadium?

I don't agree that the Marlins need to be contracted, but Loria needs to be barred from baseball for life and fined $200M or however much he's scammed from the other owners via revenue sharing. Not for scamming the owners, but for cheating his fans (both in FLA and in Montreal). Winning 2 WS titles in 15 years is meaningless when the team has to endure intentional losing seasons 3 out of 4 from lack of pride on the part of the owner. They've had 4 winning seasons out of 15, with only 2 of those greater than 83 wins (91 and 92 respectively) and they were extremely lucky to win the WS the two times they made the post season.

Another interesting note in post 53 of the linked thread- the Tigers payroll for '08 will be $130M if they don't move someone.

It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 5, 2007 8:47 PM EST up reply actions

It's hard to square

With the revenue Loria's drawing, you'd think he could dredge his own island off the Miami coast and build a stadium on it, plus a bridge connecting it to the peninsula without public financing.

Something like these man-made islands in the UAE could be super cool. Imagine it, an island shaped like a Marlin with nothing on it but a ballpark, parking garages, and a few resort hotels with views into the stadium.

I gotta say, though... The 2008 Marlins might be the best $10,000,000 baseball team since the 1989 Cubs!

by liam on Dec 5, 2007 9:10 PM EST up reply actions

We complain about the Marlins dumping talent

but it's possible they've improved their team. Maybin is a potential all-star and Miller is probably better than Willis right now. Cabrera was a transcendent hitter but it's not like the Marlins haven't won a championship recently.

I think that would be a fascinating team to follow with their farm system and young energetic talent. The fact that their fans need a single long-term name to get attached too in order to be loyal isn't necessarily a reflection of the team.

I don't necessarily agree with the disparity between the money they're spending and how much is coming in from revenue sharing but for $10M they're still better than several other teams in the league. It does seem disingenuous that they are asking Florida for money for a new stadium though.

by azruavatar on Dec 5, 2007 9:12 PM EST up reply actions

I can't really blame them

they are gaming the current system, and doing it very effectively. I'm saying that the current system probably needs to be changed, particularly if salaries continue to inflate over the long term.

by Valatan on Dec 5, 2007 9:18 PM EST up reply actions

i disagree

that the reasons the fans aren't loyal is that they don't have a "single long-term name to get attached to". As I said, they've had 4 winning seasons, and in 2 of those they won 83 games. That is unacceptable for a team that's been around for 15 years and that is making the amount of profit that the marlins are apparently making.

The Marlins are gaming the system, playing within the rules but not adhering to the spirit of the rules. This is why i think they need to change the rules; they aren't trying to win every year, and that is despicable to me. There's no way in hell I'd ever be a fan of the marlins and I'm as big of a fan of the game of baseball as there is. I'd be a TB fan if I lived in Florida; even though they lose every year, they still try. Their losing is due to incompetence and not willfulness.

It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 5, 2007 9:18 PM EST up reply actions

what about the players?

i think you're both right. i think it was mcguire that got me into baseball for good. but i think many fans also get attached to dynasties as well. both trading star players as well as (somewhat)consistently loosing would piss me off. if the cardinals traded pujols today, i imagine that many fans would avoid busch for 2008.

anyway, don't you think it's incredibly unfair to fringe major league talent? they get used and abused for several years and never get the chance to stick around any more, because younger talent is so much cheaper. the use and abuse results in the occational injury to someone like felix hernandez who may never have the chance to earn what he deserves.

by johnstonburg on Dec 5, 2007 10:15 PM EST up reply actions

so what if

they lose 100 games we may lose 85-95 with a 100 MILLION dollar payroll hell we lost 84 last year...95 million??

by cm1000 on Dec 5, 2007 9:45 PM EST reply actions

My $.02

The Marlins story is an odd one, b/c they bought one championship, then slung off all of the parts for the core of their next championship. They obviously have some player development/scouting folks who know what they're doing, b/c they've got some very very good young players.

Of course on the other hand it sucks for the fans. I'd imagine that there are SOME Fish fans out there who have stuck with that squad from the start who are frustrated that they seem to start getting good and unload everyone.

The thing is is that this isn't a terrible plan in a purely business sense. They constantly put teams out there that seem a year or two away from competing (and in 03/04 are actually pretty decent) for peanuts, so someone has to be making money off of the deal.

Oh, and that Marlin-shaped island cracked me up.

by redbirdnation8206 on Dec 5, 2007 9:53 PM EST reply actions

agreed

I think MLB should seriously contract a couple teams. I would look right at FLA where the Marlins and Rays can't draw more than 2,000 fans per night. Hell the only time Tampa has any fans at their game is when they play the Yankees or Red Sox.

I just think the talent is too diluted in baseball and the FLA teams could be taken away in my opinion. Heck Colorado at least was able to draw fans when they were bad. FLA was in a playoff chase in 2006 and they had like 1000 fans at one game.

I say the FLA teams should be contracted.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 5, 2007 10:42 PM EST up reply actions

I'd like

to just contract all of Florida. Can we trade it to Brazil?

by siddfynch on Dec 6, 2007 12:10 AM EST up reply actions

Agreed

Let's just trade the entire state of Florida to Brazil for a few billion barrels of sugarcane ethanol. And then Brazil would have two major league baseball teams that nobody gives a shit about...

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 6, 2007 5:25 PM EST up reply actions

my gawd

a $10Million pay roll? seriously? in 2008?

this is just so wrong on so many levels.

first off like liam said there is no way in hell the state of florida should pay for a stadium when the owners pull crap like this.

second, what happened to the $40Million dollar minimum pay roll i thought MLB had in place? did that not happen because i thought it did? this is the perfect case for why there should be a minimum pay roll. the Fish ought to be ashamed.

third, i dont think its fair to compare the Cards & the Fish because ever since 97 all the Fish have done is become a feeder system for the big market clubs, while the Cards have actually spent the money it takes to be a competitive ball club year in & year out. the Cards could be in the same position as the Fish if all they did was trade their best players year in & year out. does any one seriously want the Cards to become one of the cellar dwelling teams by having fire sales year after year & cutting their payroll by 90%?

the Fish have all those good cheap players because they refuse to commit to winning. teams like that have no business in major league baseball. they are an embarrassment & a black eye on the sport.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Dec 6, 2007 4:23 AM EST reply actions

What do they have to be so ashamed of?

Put them in the NL Central and I bet they'd finish no worse than third, and would stand a good chance to win.

I find there method fascinating, and I enjoy following them as much as any other team not playing in St. Louis.

I've been saying it since the Beckett trade, they will win another WS before 2010...and I still believe it.

by cardzfanbub on Dec 6, 2007 11:35 AM EST up reply actions

If they had been in the NL central,

they would have been sixth place. And they just lost their best hitter as well as a guy who had been their best pitcher for a couple of previous seasons.

The unbalanced schedule might account for a few more wins since they wouldn't have to face the mets, phillies and braves, but I don't think they'd be a lock to finish no worse than third and compete for the division title. They are a team with a ton of potential to improve, but they're hardly a great team right now.

by Valatan on Dec 6, 2007 12:27 PM EST up reply actions

THEY'VE WON TWO WORLD SERIES

good lord. most of the people on this board (including me) want the cards to basically give up on 2008, don't even try to be competitive, and just wait for 2009 or 2010. why? because unless you're one of the top 5 or so payrolls in baseball, you can't just go buy/trade for whatever you want and remain competitive year in and year out. you have to do some retooling/rebuilding at some point.

the marlins have to do this to a far greater extent than the cards do. the cards may be rebuilding, but they've got enough of a fanbase that they can keep pujols, rolen, carp, edmonds, izzy, etc. while they do it. if the cards had the pirates' fanbase, they couldn't. it's not the marlins' fault they're in florida.

so the marlins do what they have to do - draft well, develop young talent, and when they get expensive, trade it away for more young talent. hope everything breaks right every few years and go for it before you have to start over.

how many teams have won two world series titles more recently than the marlins? no, they're not winning every year, but they can't. i'd certainly rather be a fan of the marlins than, say, the royals, who are just making a couple of big splashes to show they're doing something but aren't really getting any closer to 1985.

does this mean boras is human?

by nycbirdo on Dec 6, 2007 3:21 PM EST up reply actions

as discussed at BTF

the marlins had a $135M positive cash flow last year. That was with a $31M payroll. Knock $24M off that payroll and add the increased multimedia money and they are almost certainly the most profitable team in MLB, at the expense of their fans. They are leaching off of the rest of baseball; money meant to help them compete is going into Loria's pockets. If they can't field a competitive team more than twice in 15 years then they should change management.

They can easily afford to have a much bigger payroll than they do, and they would have a much bigger fan base if they were more ethical about the way that they build their team. Being in Florida isn't an excuse when the league hands you $60M in television revenues and 32M in revenue sharing and you only spend 10 of it on your team.

It's easier not to make the mistake than to make the mistake and try to fix it. -Mo

by SleepyCA on Dec 6, 2007 4:18 PM EST up reply actions

Wait....

Everyone here is saying they "develop young talent". Do they really? Or do they sign established free agents and then trade them all off for prospects at the same time?

Gary Sheffield: traded
Al Leiter: traded
Jeff Conine: traded
Kevin Brown: traded
Mike Lowell: traded
Mike Piazza: traded for then re-traded IN DIVISION

All those players were signed as big league free agents or part of some trade for prospects. They are supremely good at getting great value for their players like Beckett and Cabrera, but I'm not sure that they're any better at developing talent than any other club, they just acquire a lot more of it because Loria is comfortable having a shitty team for 6 years and then making a run a the World Series.

Loria created this situation himself, so the argument that they're doing what's necessary isn't valid, they've made their own bed of shit with the fans in south Florida and now they have to lie in it, shitty as it is. In 1997 the Marlins had a good fan base that cared about the team, a possible stadium was on the horizon, and they just won the World Series. Then the stadium deal fell through, and Loria traded off nearly the ENTIRE BIG LEAGUE ROSTER immediately afterwards. Coincidence? I think not -- it was a deliberate move to make Florida legislators look bad. What it ultimately did was drive fans away from the ballpark entirely, and many haven't come back.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 6, 2007 5:35 PM EST reply actions

loria didnt own the team in 97

Wayne Huizenga was the owner. loria fucked up the expos & good old bud rewarded him by letting him sell them to MLB in 2002 & allowing him to buy the cash cow that is the Fish. loria bought them from bud's great friend john henry, who then bought the red sox from the yawkey group. thus ushering in a new chapter in the only rivalry that matter, yanks vs sox. and the rest is history.

this exactly the type of crap i was talking about. the level of knowledge around here these days is abysmal. seriously people if you are going to post on here at least have the decency to get your facts straight.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Dec 7, 2007 1:26 AM EST up reply actions