The Art of Decency
by Calhoun on Dec 5, 2007 1:08 PM EST
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PrintDear Diary,
When I thought about posting this Diary I knew a lot of people wouldn't like what I have to say.
But to tell you the truth I don't care, I believe it needs to be said.....
First of all I would say how disappointed I am about how a lot of you have acted the last few days...
What is Decency? well I looked it up in the dictionary to get an exact definition.
Decency: 1.The quality or condition of being decent; propriety of conduct and speech; proper behavior, modesty, courtesy.
There are quite a few people on this blog who need to learn the Art of Decency. Is it really so hard to act like a decent human-being? I don't think it is....
If you only have vindictive and mean-spirited things to say I beg you please refrain from posting them... It will make blogging so much more enjoyable for everyone....
There is sometimes a misconception on this blog that if someone disagrees with you that they are attacking you... Just because someone has a different opinion then you, doesn't mean you should try and tear them down and make them feel dumb...
In closing I will say that people you need to learn that using this site is a privilege NOT A RIGHT. I do not want Lboros getting sick of running this blog because of pointless fighting.....
I`m not trying to judge anyone i`m just asking everyone on here at least try and be civil to one another please...
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I have taken what you have said
No I'm not but I feel ya...
the worst part is
I would just like to say
Amen
by PujolsFan4Life5 on Dec 5, 2007 2:30 PM EST reply actions
Here's an email
The poll is running neck and neck, but I think it's an omission to not preface the poll with a short discussion of why each party would feel the way they do - and what the pros are of each (we know the cons). Seems especially relevant now that the community is so split.
*Erik, there is no place to comment on this (short of starting a new
diary), so I'll say it by email: more than anything, the diaries need
better understanding by the readers of what they are meant to
accomplish. Rather than a straw vote, I think you should have a simple
point/counterpoint, then followed by a vote. Otherwise, you will still
end up with a sizable group of people who have not bought in, and who
will just be disgruntled (and still have the ability to start diaries
whenever they want) AND you will have to do more police work.
HoustonCard made a fine post last night about the problem with multiple
diaries, and the effects on the development of thought and ideas
within a topic. The main argument against this was the old "freedom of
speech/freedom of the web" argument. A short paragraph on the merits
and consequences of each followed by a poll would likely to better
behavior in the short term, and a more lasting effect in the future
(because some people who advocate willy-nilly diaries truly just don't
get it, but would after seeing HC's argument) as more people within the
community buy in.
This is, of course, nothing new in any walk of life, and I think it's
useful here. A lot of multiple diary starters didn't get it on the
Sickels site, either, until it went way over the top recently.
Cheers,
Siddfynch
the poll
by johnstonburg on Dec 5, 2007 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Trying to keep it civil
What follows isn't directed as you, just my opinion of what the problem is.
VeB filled a major hole in the blogosphere when Brian Gunn closed up shop at Redbird Nation. The barrage of unnecessary, uninteresting diaries is rapidly transforming this place from an exceptional blog to just-another message board or forum. If I wanted to read what illiterates thought about the Winter Meetings, I'd go to Cards Talk.
These sidebar posts should be about topics with some staying power—something that'll stick around for a week or two and still be interesting. If someone wants to pass on a link about something that's only going to be interesting for an hour or two, it should go in a comment to the main daily post, where it'll draw some attention for the time it's still worth drawing attention. A link and a ho-hum sentence or enraged rant isn't good enough to claim a spot in the sidebar. Just start your own damned blog if you want that kind of ego-stroking.
I may be speaking out of turn, here, but I was a reader here for six months or so before I even left my first comment. It appears to me that as the community has grown, it's taken on characteristics of the P-D forums that I imagine quite a few of us resent—definitely in my case. People show up and try to take over before learning the basic decorum that's made this blog something different and better than the forums and other blogs.
I'd be happy if the diaries were done away with altogether. They've become an annoying distraction—they're turning the place into a message board and there are plenty of those around the 'tubes.
I thought this was a place to discuss baseball..
For effect,
Why is everybody so afraid of this turning into the PD board?Because there already are P-D Boards out there, and they're mind-numbing cesspools. Not as bad as the ESPN and MLB.com message boards, admittedly, but I've never stepped away from reading those and felt much pride in being a Cardinal fan.
I check in on those boards all the time.
Screw nice
I've already violated my own maxim.
You know...
Who are you to say what is "worthwhile"? You come off looking worse in this exchange than your intended targets. You intentionally barade those you don't think measure up to your standards. It's degradeing. Then you have two seperate posters support the venom you are spewing with "Here, Here!" type posts...are you kidding me? How is the view from up there? If I am the proprietor of this site, I'm not happy with traffic being taken away from the site due to posters making others feel unwelcome. Seems like there is some decent ad revenues being generated, and they wouldn't be if the only traffic coming here had met your golden standard.
Take it down a notch my friend. This type of vomit is worse than any one liner or repeat diaries.
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
See
It's not that I don't want anyone posting, it's that I want people to think before they post. I log on to see intelligent, opinionated, creative thoughts about the Cardinals by my fellow fans. Not to read whatever the hell runs through someones mind while they are sitting in front of the computer.
(and the view from up here is great. it's fucking cold, though.)
I look ugly
Try to see beyond my clumsy and harsh rhetorical style. We're arguing about what the future of this website will be.
I contend that the sidebar diaries should reflect the same level of thoughtfulness that we get in the main posts—anything less is a waste of time.
The opposing (reasonable) position is that the sidebar should be a free-for-all and that the best should be identified by a voting mechanism that raises a select few to a "recommended diary" section.
I'd rather maintain a culture around here where there is an element of, yes, fear—at least caution and care that community members struggle with before posting these diaries. I don't get the impression that the opposition strategy is working all that well at BCB.
This isn't my website—I have no more standing than anyone else to say how it should evolve, but I'd like to continue relying on it to be a place where I can read insightful analysis of my favorite baseball team and get some occasional laughs without having to wade through hysterical BS. Your advice to take it down a notch is received. It's probably best if I bow my skyward-turned nose out of these discussions until a compromise is reached.
To keep my persona of bad guy, it's 'berate', Bobby, not 'barade'. And we write, 'Hear, hear!' not 'here, here', Alex... You illiterate knuckleheads.
(Just kidding, of course. I respect you both, regardless of you're fealings four m3.)
for what its worth liam
i dont know when it exactly happened, but some where along the way last season a wave of new people showed up & brought the whole site down a peg or ten. i read this site for probably 8 months before i dared make a comment because i made damn sure it was VEB worthy. the new people should go back & read the archives & see what i mean by VEB worthy. the quality of posts by almost every member, not to mention LB were some of the most intelligent & well thought out views about the Cardinals any one will ever read. with the exceptions of LB & the other main thread writers & the older regular members, sadly now thats not the case.
i think VEB is at a cross roads. changes need to be made, because if it continues down its current path LB's going to pull his hair out & say to hell with it & shut it down. no one wants that. i dont know how it can be done, but some how, some way we need to get back to the high quality & high level of intellect this site was once famous for. if that means restriction to new members & diaries then i'm all for it.
i think you need to earn you right to be considered among the elite here at VEB. like some one said earlier, posting here is a privilege, not a right.
Ahh...
I like it. I really get sick of looking up the spelling of words sometimes. I rolled the dice, and lost miserably!
Your point is valid, even if I think the method leaves a little to be desired.
You are a fine poster sir, and everyone knows it.
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 6, 2007 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Here is the problem
One mans B.S. is another mans joy. Your opinion matters until you infringe on the rights of other people to express thier opinions. You seem to be trying to run everyone off the board that you disagree with I think the point of this post is to co-exist. If you slap someone like I said before the natural reaction is to slap back. That is when things get ugly. So in reality you are creating the enviroment you do not want.
Perhaps
Hmm...
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 6, 2007 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
That is relegated by individual perception...
Again, it's not all about you
But when you post a diary for EVERY rumor that comes along in a separate diary, it pushes good diaries in which good discussion is going on off the page. That is disrespectful of the other people who took time to write their thoughts. If you want to talk about every rumor that pops up at mlbtraderumors, get an account there and talk about it there.
It's also disrespectful of the people who want to read YOUR thoughts, because it makes us look in 4 or 5 different places and often information is replicated; we end up spending more time than is necessary to get the same information.
This is an exciting time of year for everyone, not just you, and I'll admit- I had more fun yesterday with the dozen or so crappy diaries than I did today with the two or 3 good ones, but it would have been even better if you had consolidated all of your thoughts into one good diary yesterday.
This is the kind of post
Well put, Sleepy.
Well what can I say.
That was...
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
Arrogant, Elitist, Snobby...
And mocking the Cards Talk forum as a collection of panicky bedwetters is an artform that predates the Cards Talk Forum itself. It was just a much more abstract artform back in those days.
OK
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
i agree with you more or less
and, yes, i think the diaries should have some staying power.
but i don't think that everyone here should have to start a blog to say something. this blog does generate discussion in a way that no other website does. cards talk may have the traffic, but it certainly is not the same crowd. not many other sites have the traffic. it's very hard to get a successful blog started. it requires lots of time and energy. for a good while, even the best efforts will go relatively unappreciated.
even with erik's press here, i imagine that it has taken him quite a while to generate the traffic he now gets. (i don't know how much he gets, but more people comment now than ever before. this is a very rough indicator of traffic, but i think the generalization from comments to traffic is valid.) despite his blog being excellent from day one, his exposure was drastically lower than it is now. the feedback he received was lower than it is now. these things are important.
some people claim that the reason we talk is merely to influence others. does that not fit the purpose of the majority, if not all, of the comments here?
returning to the fundamentals: this is lb's blog. he can do whatever he wants with it, and we owe him a lot for giving us a degree of expression. however, i think he recognizes that reader input makes the site more dynamic. (i apologize, lb, if i'm putting words in your mouth.) i imagine that many people read the diaries and comments throughout the site almost as well as the main posts. these posts can make watching baseball games more interesting, they can simply share knowledge, or they can incite discussions. i think the comments and diaries overall make lb's blog better, and i think virtually everyone agrees.
yes, many comments are dumb, annoying, or whatever. yes, some diaries are dumb, annoying, or whatever. but some of us obviously desire to use them in those ways. should lb let us? is that what he wants? is that what we want?
apparently, many peoples' distaste stems from the diaries alone and less so the comments, but i maintain that the diaries are a symptom.
so, here's how i see it:
issue: people want lots of a certain type of exposure to their ideas for whatever reason
complaint 1: people keep making pointless, redundant, or boring diaries, thus diluting the content of this site and making it less enjoyable for many.
complaint 2: people are not respecting others, making this site anywhere from incredibly offensive to slightly amusing. (i believe most of us agree that we should do everything we can to respect others. for this reason, avoiding offending others is probably the most important consideration we have, overriding mere amusement or annoyance.)
complaint 3: our actions are directly affecting lb, causing him to enjoy blogging less, which reduces his ability to fully participate and share his ideas.
how much do these problems matter? the manifesto should give us some idea: "and that's what i hope we're gonna do here -- take our baseball seriously and in proportion. by "in proportion" i mean discuss it debate it relive it dissect it obsess over it wallow in it rise above it . . . . but come what may enjoy it."
the emphasis seems to be on enjoying our time here. lb, in democratic fashion, gave us the ability to show what we would enjoy the most, by putting that poll up. it is very clear to me that lb is remaining true to his purpose.
obviously, our collective vote is only a suggestion to lb. i imagine that the moderators and other main veb posters have already been specifically contacted by lb. moreover, it's his vote in the end. we don't want him beginning to despise us or this blog.
nonetheless, i don't think the poll is that effective. it offers three vague choices.
changing the diary section will help solve immediate concerns-- i have few doubts. but will the effect last for long? will policing it eventually tax him and the moderators further? will it prevent someone from posting something that would have been incredibly interesting? will people even bother to follow the guidelines? is this the best way? are those three options the only ones?
by johnstonburg on Dec 5, 2007 9:40 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think I was redundant...
If you want my opinion
I think all we need to do is add the recommended Diary section. And maybe add 2-3 more people to police the posts and Diaries because Lb cant be on all the time. I dont think we need more rules I think the Community Guidelines are good enough.
+1
by johnstonburg on Dec 5, 2007 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe I am wrong
I sense that is where the frustration from many long time members is coming from. If you have a random thought, some rumor you saw from ESPN.com or MLB trade rumors, or any other site that is rountinely linked to here....90% of the time it isn't worthy of diary status.
Such things are perfectly fine in comment threads, and if you look, someone has almost certainly put up a diary about the topic you want to talk about. Those are the proper forums for rumor links and the like. At least, that is my understanding.
I lurked on this site for some time before I even logged in here. I did that because I respected this community and the high level of discussion that dominated it. Compared to MANY other SB nation sites...this one is supreme, in my opinion, and not just because I love the Cardinals. Many people here have intentionally created a community celebrating a common love of baseball and our team.
That is why there is such a visceral reaction when the discourse is lowered here. Can some react better? Of course. Can the "diary police" be annoying? No doubt. But that does not mean we all forfeit our job to make this place better.
We all have a responsibility to make this a great site. I think a bit of a perspective shift is in order for all of us. Above all, we must realize this is NOT just some public forum. We all should treat this place as we would someone else's home, and I don't know about you, but I don't visit my friend's house and tell him to change the carpet and the paint. I haven't been perfect about this myself, but I would like to think I am getting better with time.
Think for about five minutes before you post a diary, and scan the last 10 diaries to see if your topic is unique or not. If it is not unique, put your info under the pre existing diary. If you have something new to share, share it in diary form or in the community main thread.
You are all my friends, even though I don't know you, because you all love the same team I love. Let's continue making this place a forum of high discussion regarding that team.
This is an absolutely
one other thing
but... so many of you keep saying how long it was before you made your first comment. i could say the exact same thing. does this mean anything?
does senority on veb matter? many seem to think so-- and i agree. it probably should. could this be a solution?
i think so.
by johnstonburg on Dec 5, 2007 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
I only meant it
But sure, seniority does matter to a degree. I know I will defer to a more prominent member of VEB in some disputable matter.
Ah well. Ultimately this issue is being taken way to far by people on both sides. This issue isn't that complex at the core. Newer folks need to learn the ropes around here, and that may mean absorbing some criticism about diary content.
And the mainstays and regulars here need to chill as well. We all have the ability to name call or to elevate the discussion.
seniority doesn't matter
On the other hand, many diary posters have not been around long enough to realize that their ideas have been discussed ad nauseam, beat into the ground and regurgitated and re-beat-down until the regular posters (who will be here next week, too) are exhausted from having to say the same things over and over. If they would just take some time and put some effort into observing the flow of information before attempting to carve their own niche we'd all be the better for it.
Very well written.
It's obvious that there is a divide between some longtime members and some of the newcomers.
It's annoying to me when I read the "policing" comments in what seems like every diary. I understand their are longtime members here who help make this site what it is today...by far the best place to follow Cardinal baseball, bar none and the level of content on this site is unmatched. As is the quality of posters.
However, there seems to be many posters who come off being, without a better term, snobby. I can see why this place wouldn't be inviting to some. The "you can take that shit to Cards talk", holier than thou attitude displayed by some is uncalled for in my opinion.
The main page post is what 90% of the readers of this site come here for anyway. A few diaries, that you deem unworthy, are not going to affect your ability to get the content you came here for. The offseason is a bit different also. Yesterday was such a hectic day with all the rumors...I know, myself, I liked to log on a get the latest news without having to scroll through a 300 post "catch all" diary. It's true they don't stay relevent long, and there is no need for three on the same subject, but I don't think people passing on the latest info w/ a credible source is a bad thing.
I really think that the recommended diaries function would be great. This would allow for the really good diaries, w/ good discussions, to remain at the top of the page. The other diaries quickly fall off the top 10 for those not interested.
Win, win.
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
Cooler heads will prevail
I think what some regulars don't realize that VEB becoming elitist and snobby is just as real as it degenerating into a p-d board. To me, neither one is an acceptable solution, and so we all need to give a little here, and be a bit more understanding.
Good point on the main page. I like the diary function, and seeing if my ideas and theories carry any following in a larger setting, but I also come here to read the main page. I look forward to it.
Yes indeed.
agreed.
by wilson on Dec 5, 2007 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
I agree.
I agree completely
And that's precisely the point.
"I know im not the smartest guy"
You shoudn't be made to feel that way, man.
Some people just aren't able to organize their thoughts and put them down in a conscise, well written post as well as others. It's not a matter of who is the intelligent, or it shouldn't be any way.
Maybe I am overreacting, but the fact that someone is holding back for fear of the ridicule he/she is going to receive is ridiculous.
by bobbyballgame1 on Dec 5, 2007 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely
Agreed as well
It is ironic, since they are committing the same sin they rail against, basically not pursuing truth but only what they feel is right.
Too many wannabe Ken Tremendous people....people that unfortunately don't criticize paid sportswriters but casual fans trying to have a conversation.
And as a practicing statistician
...decency...
________________
Glad to hear you say this cardzfan24. The "feel-good" factor in your post was a BIG surprise to me as I read, the highlighted line made it meaningful.
I've slowly realized that there is a "senior status" heirarchy at VEB and it stands to reason, that in some ways as Bobby said above, there should be.
But, when nasty below the belt rebuttle attacks and negativity come from that group, which happens as frequently as any, it has a decided and direct ripple effect. When negativity and venom flows from the established end of the forum, it breeds more of the same in the ranks.
There needs to be a common thread of decency that starts with the elite, that will also have a ripple effect. Ive seen more of that recently from most/some of the seniors and I respect it and am learning. Or maybe Im just reading that into it? A lot of people dont need the condescending spew of foul crap, just an education.
That said, theres no excuse for angry and condescending rebuttles from anybody. Unless you're a fan, youre not coming here to begin with (or a troll).
The VEB guidelines address standards meant to elevate the forum content beyond the internet norm and the founding members deserve bigtime credit for launching the ship and bringing likeminded people onboard (as much NOW? as in the early days.) Theres not a better Cards site anywhere, maybe not a better MLB site for information backed up with real numbers. Its an education and its pure fun when it all works together...to say the least.
After reading Houstoncardinals exchanges with Hardcore re: TLR on Red Barons meat and potatoes main page, think we may have to get Houston some "how to work and play nice with others" books to share with his students and fellow posters. BUT, at least he was defending Rolen for a change!
by cardschinmusic on Dec 6, 2007 6:10 AM EST up reply actions
Apologies
But it is an exchange of thoughts, ideas and facts? Or mainly shrewd reading material and artful composition for the linguistically gifted as board members above allude to? Both...
by cardschinmusic on Dec 6, 2007 7:11 AM EST up reply actions
Indeed
We can talk Bonds and trading with the Angels later. That should be fun for all of you to witness.
probably notBonds..
by cardschinmusic on Dec 7, 2007 5:35 AM EST up reply actions
you're absolutely correct
will
Dare I suggest a Mega deal for blog world?
Futureredbirds
by the red baron on Dec 6, 2007 9:13 AM EST up reply actions
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