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The Last Post of the Year

Gutentag, mon freres.  That's right.  I stand by it.  

I'm filling in this morning to give our esteemed host a much deserved day off from the holiday season whirlwind.  It does, however, put me in a bit of an odd position, given that I used up all of my year end review material last week.  (Thanks for all of the feedback, by the way.  I wasn't expecting anyone to actually enjoy discussing any of that stuff, but it turned out really great.)  So, if you didn't like what I had to say last week, then good news, everyone!  This week, I'm actually going to talk a bit about baseball!  I know it's a little unorthodox for a baseball blog, but I think we can all make it work if we pull together.  

Specifically, I wanted to talk a little bit about the Cardinal's center fielder of the future, Mr. Colby Rasmus.  Over there on the Rotoworld sidebar, (just to the left of this) Mozeliak's declaration that Rasmus will be given the chance to win the starting job in Spring Training is featured.  My own feelings on the subject were mixed to begin with.  At first, with Jimmy gone, I felt very excited; a sense of, "the future is now" sort of situation.  I thought it was great that we might get a chance to see a future superstar patrolling center right out of the Spring.  That was coupled with a bit of trepidation, though.  While I feel immensely confident in the ability of Rasmus to come up, learn on the fly, and, with time, become a true impact player, I still worry about him being rushed.  He is still only 21 years old; that's awfully young to be in the big leagues at all, much less in a starting role.  Again, I think he should be able to handle it, but you don't want him to come up, struggle, and have his confidence shaken.  

As time goes on, though, I'm coming down more and more on the side of hoping that Colby doesn't make the team out of ST.  And in the end, it comes down, not to concerns about his development, nor to trying to avoid starting his service clock running early, (I fall firmly in line with the school of thought that, if Colby is approaching the service time to become a FA and you haven't locked him up on a five year, or longer, deal, then he hasn't worked out at all the way we thought he would) nor even to thoughts of trying to alleviate the pressure by making him an in season call up, with the somewhat tempered expectations that would come along with it.  No, the reason I hope that Rasmus starts his year in Triple A is summed up in two mathematical formulas.  Don't worry if you're not the sabermetric type; these aren't nearly as complex as the equations that are usually thrown around here.  They are:  

6>5
and
3>2.  

That's it.  No more, no less.  

The way I see it, the Cardinals currently have six outfielders vying for five spots.  They are:  

Rick Ankiel
Chris Duncan
Ryan Ludwick

Skip Schumaker
Colby Rasmus
Brian Barton

I've divided them into two groups like this because I think the first three are pretty much locks to be on the 25 man roster next season in the OF.  The next three are essentially competing for the remaining two spots worth of playing time; hence, the second, (and, really, more important) of the two formulae above.  I'm not concerned with starting and backup roles; we've seen that bench players on a Tony LaRussa team get plenty of ABs, indeed, they often get far more than they should.  

Now, ordinarily, one would look at a situation like this and say that, out of those six, you simply hold a competition in Spring and take the five best.  In such a competition, you would probably also side with the player who appears to be a big part of the future of the franchise, i.e. Colby Rasmus, over guys who look like future bit players, or have significant unknowns at this point.  However, in this particular case this season, the situation is a little more complicated than that.  

As I said before, the first three on that list, (Duncan, Ankiel, and Ludwick) I feel have virtually no chance of not being on the roster to start the year.  There are pretty obvious reason for all of them, so I would go into them at any great length.  The second group, though, will only get two of the three on to the roster.  And therein lies the rub.  Of those three, two of them really, really need to be on the roster.  And the one who looks to be the biggest part of the team in the long term is the one who really doesn't.  

Skip Schumaker is out of options.  If he doesn't make the team, in order to be sent down to the minors, he would have to clear waivers and all that sort of thing, and I really don't think he would make it through.  Skip, with his definite limitations, is still quite a useful player to have around, and some team would pick him up.  As much as I hate to use BA for anything, he did hit .333 last year.  He doesn't have a whole lot of power, and his plate discipline is just decent, but he has very nice speed and plays vsolid defense.  He's not a star by any means, but he is a nice option as an extra outfielder, and maybe he could be a little better than that if given the chance, hitting at the top of a lineup and playing center.  If the Cardinals hold on to him and give him adequate playing time early in the season, he either plays well, establishing some value for himself, either as a slightly more permanent part of this Cards team, or as a solid piece of a trade package.  I don't see him being the principle piece of any deal, but as a secondary player, I think he could be very valuable.  Again, though, if he is lost to the waiver wire, the Cardinals get absolutely nothing for him.  

Brian Barton is the other piece of this equation.  As a Rule 5 draft pick, Barton has to stay on the 25 man roster all year, or else be lost, either back to his original team, (and believe me, the Indians would take him back) or to the waiver wire.  Now, I'm sure a lot of people's thought process here is something along the lines of, "hey, we got the guy for absolutely nothing, who cares if we lose him?  Colby's gonna be better anyway!"  While there is some validity to that argument, Barton has the potential to be a very good player.  He has tremendous plate discipline, decent pop in his bat, and well above average speed.  Now, there is an injury concern with him, as he had offseason knee surgery, (the only reason he was available for the Cards to grab, by the way) so you can debate how close to his true potential he's going to be.  However, again, this is a player who's situation makes it important, to my way of thinking, that you hold on to him.  He has the potential to be a great leadoff hitter, and he can play anywhere in the outfield.  Barton is too good of a talent for a team in transition to give up on him, without getting a really solid look at what he can do.  (Yes, I know there are some creative things you can do, with the DL and things like that, to hold on to a Rule 5 guy if he's not on the 25 man, but I'm not taking into account any odd rule bending that could be attempted.)  

On the other hand, we have Colby Rasmus.  Colby has a whole lot of things going for him.  He's the consensus best prospect in the Cardinal organisation.  He's anywhere from about the third to the seventh best prospect in baseball, according to which scouting service you pay attention to.  In the long run, he's as safe a bet as you can imagine to be the very best of any outfielder in the group of six up above.  There's one other thing that Mr. Rasmus has, that none of the other players have.  Colby has options.  If you want to assign Colby to a minor league club, (in this case, Memphis) there are absolutely no repurcussions.  You don't risk losing him, you don't have to offer him to anyone, nothing.  You say, "Hey, kid, you're going to Memphis."  Then he goes, "Man, that sucks."  You tell him he'll be back before long, that it's best for the team, and probably him, if he starts out in AAA, and that's it.   In this particular case, in spite of Rasmus being, in all likelihood, the best player, and the most important part of the franchise, of any of these guys in the long run, there's much less of an impetus to have him on the roster straight out of spring training than either of the other two guys he will basically be competing against.  

If Rasmus comes out and just absolutely destroys ST, hitting .370 with seven home runs or something, then there's really almost no way you can keep him out of the lineup.  But if he comes out and has a good but not great spring, then I think it would behoove the Cardinals to start him out in Triple A.  Give plenty of at bats to the other players on the list.  By the June rolls around, and Colby is tearing it up in Memphis, hopefully some of the other five players have established some solid value, and a team with a need will be looking to the Cards' outfield surplus to bolster their own woes.  

To me, the optimal situation would be along the lines of Rasmus starting in AAA.  Around June, or so, Scott Rolen, Chris Duncan, and Skip Schumaker have all performed well.  At that point, you move Duncan, preferably to an AL team that needs lineup pop, and receive a solid young pitcher in return.  You then try to move Rolen to a team like the Dodgers, who will, in my estimation, be trying to bolster their team with some veteran talent to stay in the race against the DBacks and the Padres.  You try to pry away Andy LaRoche and Scott Elbert; Schumaker can be included if the parameters of the deal need to be expanded.  Rasmus slides in to the hole in the outfield left by Duncan's departure and takes over starting duties in center.  By that point in time, you have a solid idea of exactly how your outfield is going to be configured going forward.  Rasmus is your center fielder, the Ricker is probably in right, and, personally, I hope Barton proves he can be a starter in left, hitting atop the lineup.  Ludwick continues to take at bats, rotating all over the OF, and, if Skip was moved as well, your next outfielder on the depth chart, (probably a guy like Joe Mather) slides up to take over extra outfield duties.  Note that I'm using Duncan as a trade example, not because I don't like him, but because I think he's the best candidate to be moved to a different situation, and also because he's the most one dimensional of the players we're discussing here.  I'm rooting for Barton for a really similar reason; he's a potential impact talent in several different areas at once, and I'm a sucker for really super athletic players.  

It may seem counterintuitive to hold back your franchise's highest watt position prospect in favour of other players who have very little chance of ever being as good as he will be, but that's what I'm advocating here.  This team has so many needs to improve that, to my mind, wasting any small drop of talent or value that you possibly have on hand would be a huge mistake.  Impatience, in my opinion, would be one of the biggest mistakes that Mozeliak and the Cardinals could make right now.  I know that it's tough to suffer through this, watching as other teams get immediately better, and our own hometown nine sputter along in neutral, but building a perennial contender takes time.  To me, sending Rasmus to Triple A will allow him additional time to grow, away from the spotlight, and allow the organisation to work out the situation in the outfield before he gets here.  More value can be squeezed out of these players if you can move one or two of them to improve the team, rather than getting nothing back, just to create the illusion that the Cardinal team of the future is going to get here faster.  Patience, everyone.  Patience.  

Also, I want to apologise for the late post.  I agreed to do this on Monday, then woke up this morning and didn't realise that it was Monday until about 10:15 or so.  Sorry.  

Everyone have a very Happy New Year, and please be careful.  You can't read Viva El Birdos if you're locked up for whatever reason, and you'll miss the whole rebuild, not to mention the future championships, if you're dead.  So please, take care of yourselves.  I'll see you all in the new year.  

0 recs  |  Comment 27 comments

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Today's Monday?
really, I know exactly how you feel, haven't known what day of the week it is for quite sometime now.  
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

by Dave Barry on Dec 31, 2007 12:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Completely agree on all fronts
Red Baron, sir, get out of my head.
The only thing between me and you is a thin layer of gabardine...

by silent_bob on Dec 31, 2007 1:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Great analysis
Your suggestion makes a lot of sense.  It keeps all maximizes the available talent.  

Hope Mo reads it!

by havel12 on Dec 31, 2007 1:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Wie geht es ihnen heute?
Nice post, Baron - especially on such short notice.  You summed up exactly what I have been thinking - and said it way better than I could have!  Unless Rasmus just tears it up at Jupiter this spring, let him start out at Memphis and continue to get as many AB's at possible - his development will continue nicely there.  In the meantime, we can figure out what we have in our other five OF's.  I am also anxious to see what Brian Barton can do - if he has recovered fully from the knee surgery we may have found our leadoff hitter and a real talent.

Gutes Neues Jahr zu allen!

by wildman on Dec 31, 2007 1:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Just how good must he be
in spring training to justify keeping Rasmus on the big team?  A Pujols 2001 ST seems improbable for him, or for any other mere mortal, but there is some level of achievement beyond which the decision is going to have to be made -- and I suspect that that's about the level at which he'll actually achieve.

Generally this analysis looks very good, but I think you over-value Ludwick, and not by a little.  A 28-year-old corner outfielder with an OPS under .820 is not an irreplaceable asset.  Rasmus wouldn't have to have that good a camp -- say, something promising a .275/.360/.460 line in the bigs, which seems entirely within reach for him -- for him to put Ludwick's job in jeopardy, IMO, the more so since he can run and play center.  Even Schumaker might look better than Ludwick coming out of ST, although that's less likely.

by StanTheManFan on Dec 31, 2007 1:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good question
I have a hard time drawing an exact line of performance Colby needs to achieve to go north with the big club.  Part of the answer is relative to the other OF's.  If any of them have a terrible spring and Colby does "ok" then maybe he should make it.  If he does start out in St. Louis Tony needs to commit to him so he can continue to develop his considerable potential.  Colby needs to play every day wherever he is this year.

I agree that Lucwick may be the odd man out.  I like his power and perceived "clitchiness" but unless he steps it up a notch he's probably replaceable.  The advantage of leaving Colby in Memphis to start the year is that we can find out which of the other five we like the most and perhaps get some trade value out of two or three of them (don't forget that Spezio can play a little OF).  Passing them through waivers to start them in Memphis probably won't work.

by wildman on Dec 31, 2007 1:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm...
I don't think I'm overvaluing Ludwick.  I have him as a fourth outfielder, which I think is a role he can fill very admirably.  He can play anywhere in the outfield without embarassing himself, he has a little speed and nice pop in his bat.  I particularly think he makes a nice bench player as he adds that Eduardo Perez element of a power pinch hitter that served the Cards so well a few years ago.  

My point, though, isn't that Ludwick, or really any of the guys above, outside Colby, are truly irreplaceable.  My point is that all six of these players have a certain amount of value.  Of the three that are feasibly on the outside looking in, only Colby retains that value if he's not on the roster.  Any of the other guys get sent down, and you most likely lose them, with no compensation whatsoever.  

Punch. Drink. Cry.

by the red baron on Dec 31, 2007 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Happy New Year
to everyone here.  It's a pleasure to be a part of this corner of the blogosphere.  Be on the lookout for a diary about Carpenter and his prospects for 2008 and beyond as he recovers from Tommy John surgery.
The only thing between me and you is a thin layer of gabardine...

by silent_bob on Dec 31, 2007 1:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Nice analysis
But I am just not convinced we will be able to trade dunc for much of anything.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Dec 31, 2007 1:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Agree with most
of what you wrote. If Coby is ready this spring you could move the trades up to late spring training. At that time there are always teams that have holes they thought they filled but found out in spring traing they haven't. Players get hurt, young players they were counting on aren't ready. Recovering players have set backs (Mark Prior).
By the end of spring if a team needs a power bat how many young OF/DH types proven to hit big league pitching for 20 to 30 HRs will be out there to get? Those kind of players are being counted to help their current club at the end of spring, not being dangled as trade bait. Some team might sell (trade) the farm if they are in a pinch. If Cobys not ready or no great offers then wait, were in no hurry.
OH wait WE ARE IN A HURRY, MAKE A DEAL NOW!!! GIVE A 5TH STARTER 80 MILLION. SIGN AN OVER THE HILL OUTFIELDER AND PAY HIM LIKE A ROD. DO ANYTHING.
Just kidding

Here's to 1 year from now talking about how all the young talent is poised to take us to the playoffs and beyond.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!

by That's a Winner on Dec 31, 2007 2:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I like it
I have been thinking this since they drafted Barton. I don't think it would hurt CR to start off at AAA where he will play against some fringe MLB players while big club makes a move or two to make an official spot for him. Let's see who has some value for some more prospects in May and June, make a trade and bring up Colby then. I remember what I was like when I was 21, I can't imagine what it would be like to start the year with the big club at the age of 21, let's not screw with his head like the Royals  did with Zack Greinke, who IMO came up too soon. I really don't want the team to have to send Colby to me for counseling about an anxiety problem.
http://welcometojohnsonville.blogspot.com

by arthropodtodd on Dec 31, 2007 2:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I agree....
with 98% of what you said, Red.  The ONLY way that should change- i.e. keep Rasmas on the big squad- is if he comes into ST and has the type that El Hombre had.  I still remember his (Pujols's) first spring training season, watching from just above the dugout in Florida.  IF he comes into ST and dominates the way Pujols did- and if he "has" the same command of the strike zone- then keep him up.  Otherwise, down to AAA and allow the five others to make their mark.  

by gman on Dec 31, 2007 2:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Great post
It is an interesting dilemma in the OF in Jupiter this March. This does not influence Colby in ST; however, one thing I would like to comment on is the use of Skip. Eck's departure to join the Birds beyond the northern border leaves the team with a hole to fill at the top of the order.  What if Skip was to be used in RF in the 1 slot (on a every day basis), until some teams start to see a bit of value in him around the Brake?

by Stan and Slaughter on Dec 31, 2007 2:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

skip
i see him as the michael bourn type player that everyone wanted to trade a reyes for. His defense is as good if not better than the so man, has speed( although not for basestealing), and has proven to be a consistent enough hitter to deserve a chance to play and bat leadoff- if barton doesn't already fill that need.
At least he's better than Esteban Yan

by jacksonian on Dec 31, 2007 3:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

In terms of handedness
Lefties - Duncan, Ankiel, Rasmus, Schumaker
Righties - Ludwick, Barton

Rasmus in the minors till June and then he comes up and the Cardinals release Schumaker. That's my ideal scenario.

by azruavatar on Dec 31, 2007 3:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

handedness
Excellent post Red Baron.  I have also been thinking  about which of these OFs hit left and right.  Seems obvious why Jimmy was traded - just too many left-handed hitting OFs (also Haerther).  Also, makes sense that either Duncan or Schumaker will get traded some time this summer, as Rasmus, and to some extent Ankiel, appear considered as future cornerstones.

by finmsully on Dec 31, 2007 5:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

scenarios
i believe rb has hit the nail on the head.  i've been advocating this for a while too, but from a slightly different point of view.  For the OFs as well as pitchers, there has to be a clear plan for getting certain players the chances to show their wares.  Not all our gambles need to be about signing other players, but also that some we have will get better, even if just for a while.  i believe cr should start in memphis regardless of how well he does in st.  from a baseball-economic point of view, rb's arguments are sound regarding the cards doing their best to create value in each of the outfielders other than cr.  if cr is not the cf in 09l, things will have gone very awry.  for 08, the bobs need to manage their roster very carefully because their real competitive future is 1-2 years out and that future and those players should be managed to create a "new" team that remain competitive for a while.  this means staging cr's progression as well as others.  to make that 09 team better, we need to know what ank et al can do and whether they are parts we need to keep or move in trade.  that is not going to happen if we devalue them by releasing them early.  as az says, if we do release anyone, it should be after the experiments have failed, ie, in june or july.

by sportsman on Dec 31, 2007 5:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

like you mentioned ...
... the other factor is, more or less, another year of cheap rasmus, which is a winner, regardless.  so, if the clock is started later, we win.  (now, maybe i'm not understanding a nuance of the whole service time thing.)

and there's the barton factor ... cheap league average+ talent shouldn't be wasted.

all to say, i'm with you, RB.

by brentonjay on Dec 31, 2007 6:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Don't we already know
what they can do?

Some perspective is useful here.  According to BP, league-average outfielders in the 2007 NL had lines of:
LF: .278/.358/.478
CF: .273/.336/.426
RF: .275/.344/.442
When you look at our guys --
Ankiel:    .285/.328/.535 (RF)
Duncan:    .259/.354/.480 (LF)
Ludwick:   .267/.339/.479 (RF)
Schumaker: .294/.331/.400 (CF)
-- it's clear that we are talking about a group that, with the possible exception of Ank (we don't know how robust his numbers are, but they might be for real), are all right around league average for their positions based on raw numbers.  None do anything on the field (as opposed to Ank's marvelous human-interest story) that's so special as to add significant value beyond what's represented by the OPS figures.  They're just ... average players.

"Average" does not mean "valueless."  In my opinion we should not be using the R-word with any of these guys.  A significant number of NL teams were running outfielders out there who were worse than they were -- not everyone can be above average.  For those teams, any of these guys are potentially an upgrade, and a cost-controlled upgrade at that.  Don't even think about releasing them; instead, talk to those teams with sub-par outfields and see what can be done.

IMO, the correct strategy here is exactly the one that DeRusliak seem to be heading for:

  • Don't do anything dumb during the free-agent and winter-meeting frenzies;
  • Keep all options open until they hit the field in spring training;
  • At that time -- neither sooner nor later -- be prepared to deal with those teams whose ST camps are revealing an outfield hole that needs to be plugged.  Anybody but Rasmus, and maybe Ankiel, should be considered available for those deals.
  • Play Rasmus if and only if, based on what's seen in ST, it improves the team to play him.  The standards being set by the other guys are not stratospherically high.
In a nutshell: patience, patience, patience.  This profusion of average outfield talent is not a problem: it's an opportunity.  Waiting for the opportunity to ripen is a good thing, and allows the brain trust's attention to be focused more on the things that really are problems.

by StanTheManFan on Dec 31, 2007 6:12 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

To be fair to Duncan...
he pretty much played hurt for a couple months, with a bad groin, which dragged his numbers down.

All too often fans criticize or judge a player's peformance as if there was just skill or desire or whatever involved, and not health.

by DiscoJer on Dec 31, 2007 10:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Lots of other guys played hurt too
and their stats fold into those league-average numbers.  This fact should perhaps temper our enthusiasm for the "league-average" Cardinal outfielders who did not play hurt.

But I'm not going to think about it for a while.  Happy New Year, everyone; may your 2008 be better than your 2007 was.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 1, 2008 12:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great Post
Thoroughly enjoyed it.  The holiday is great, but the baseball news/chatter leaves something to be desired this time of year.

As for your post.  Originally when looking at it you made me wonder why you thought Skippy had any value.  Then when looking at his numbers last year, it does appear that if last years numbers were for real then Skip does have a modicum of value (AAA and MLB numbers both showed a pretty good CF).  So, I stand corrected.  Agree on all counts.  Thanks for the reading.  As any FYI, James sees Schu regressing to a 331 OBP next season...which is pretty reasonable.  Here's hoping for a 2007 facsimile of Skip in ot 8.

by Lawless on Dec 31, 2007 6:23 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

happy new year, veb'ers !!

Gutes Neues Jahr !

Gelukkig Nieuwjaar !

Feliz Año Nuevo !

Bon Anja !!

"bury the dead, feed the survivors and rebuild the city" (marques do pombal, 1777)

by Johnny64 on Dec 31, 2007 6:39 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

happy new year
be safe

by cm1000 on Dec 31, 2007 11:49 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

new year
hard to believe its 20-08
"Textbooks are Soviet propaganda" - Rev. Jerry Falwell

by elirock83 on Jan 1, 2008 12:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good call...
This scenario will kill the "all about results" types that push for signings of Bonds and stop gaps citing cheap wins over rebuilding. Make the trades and aquisitions during the season!

I couldnt agree more with every step you outline here in the process of rebuilding and remaining competitive toward mid season. Trading Duncan and/or Rolen seems easy and logical here, fear it wont be so easy in the real world. You cant swing a dead cat without hitting somebody in Fort Scott KS wearing an Andy or Adam (or Dave) Laroche hat or tee. I think the Dodgers will give Andy a shot at third and spend or trade on pitching (unless the injury plague continues.)

Would rather see Izturis relegated to infield backup duty or better yet, DFAed (before Schumacher is) and see a big ST from Jimenez and a surprise repeat of 04 or better during the season with Hoffpauir/Ryan in the backup IF positions .

Some guys just dont look good in red.

by cardschinmusic on Jan 1, 2008 6:51 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Hate to say it......
but what are the chances Ankiel holds up injury wise for 2 straight years.  He may be the one that opens up a roster spot for CR.  I hope his knees can take a 500 AB MLB season.  I can't wait for the day I get to see his cannon of an arm patrolling RF with Colby manning center.  I still think Duncan plays close enough to a league average LF to stick around.  Manny has been getting by for years.

by Whynot on Jan 1, 2008 9:53 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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