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Mitchell Day Chatter

Update [2007-12-13 13:18:44 by lboros]: here's the report.

whichever players are named, the two names that should be the most discussed are those of don fehr and bud selig. the union and the commissioner’s office. both organizations tacitly encouraged steroid use in the name of the dollar. steroids led to big home run totals, which led to big money --- for the union members, in the form of gaudy salaries; and for the owners, in the form of tickets and tv contracts and licensed merchandise and everything else. mlb and the union didn’t actively encourage steroid use, but both organizations actively prevented deterrence until congress got involved in 2005. they were the enablers --- without their acquiescence, most of the individual players listed here would probably have stayed clean.

as for the players: i’m not asking any of them to apologize. but i am asking them to be honest. if a guy juiced, then let’s out with it. "there was a widespread steroid culture in the game, and i was one of the many who participated in it." is that so hard to say? the steroid cheats who’ve been honest about their use --- ryan franklin, for example --- aren’t dogged by it; they tell the truth, submit to the corresponding penalty (if any), and move on with their careers, without condemnation. it’s the liars who draw all the grief, and deservedly so.

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Hasn't it already been deteremined
That this isn't the list?  
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Dec 13, 2007 12:41 PM EST   0 recs

I can't get to deadspin from work
So I have no idea what kind of qualifying statements Leitch made when he put that list up, but if it isn't the list he's being amazingly irresponsible (again) for a person whose site gets the kind of traffic his does.  

Wonder if he'll pretend to apologize this time too?

Christmas lights are an extremely efficient method for converting Christmas Spirit into heat. -anon

by SleepyCA on Dec 13, 2007 12:57 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

His list
is the same as the one that MSNBC/CNBC had on their sites, so ripping Leitch a new one is pointless, IMO(unless you just don't like the guy).
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 13, 2007 1:29 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

when he put it up
He made it very clear it was not official, just the one that was circulating on the internet, and that they were going to see how accurate it was. Which was, obviously, not very.

So I think Deadspin handled it pretty well, given that some of the actual news sites that ran the first list didn't give those caveats.

by nybirdgirl on Dec 13, 2007 3:35 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Pujols
Does anyone know how legitimate that it is, that Pujols name is on the list?

by briferg07 on Dec 13, 2007 12:58 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

pdf search report on mlb.com
no pujols or rolen but there is Cody McKay and Vina
"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Dec 13, 2007 2:16 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Don't forget Cardinals legend Larry Bigbie!
I can't think of a good offseason signature.

by effin fisk on Dec 13, 2007 2:21 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

and also
Gary Bennett!

by roebirds on Dec 13, 2007 2:25 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Former Cardinal....
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Jason Christianson
Vina
Ankiel
David Bell
Bigbie
Franklin

Dave McKay is also mentioned quite a few times as well for his statement that 30% of players are on steroids.  

by Brock20 on Dec 13, 2007 2:52 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Wow...
I'm not going to speculate and say I told you so about any of the names on here.  Seeing all of the names in one list is pretty powerful.  

by Brock20 on Dec 13, 2007 12:44 PM EST   0 recs

not really
People were just dumb, naive or in denial.  Like someone in the main thread said:

"Also, I've got a beef with this kind of retroactive morality that seems to be infesting fandom at this point."

You'd have to be retarded or a homer to not think most of those people weren't going to be on the list.  

lol, no told you so's needed...more like a sarcastic "NO SHIT?!"
 

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Dec 13, 2007 12:47 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

If Pujols is on the list
shame on him.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 1:06 PM EST   0 recs

DAmon
you know, not to make fun of people, but surely steroids are capable of making your arm strong enough to throw harder than my toddler.  

by sdrone on Dec 13, 2007 1:12 PM EST   0 recs

does it mean anything
that there are a significant number of Cardinals (past or present) on the list?  I count 10, though many didn't see much time on the club.  

by bsbalbrian6 on Dec 13, 2007 1:13 PM EST   0 recs

Larussa and roids.....
LaRussa teams have been notoriously linked to roids dating back to the bash brothers days.  Not surprising, really.  

The names on the list should be Bud and Selig.  End of story.  No need to point fingers at the players.  They are competitors and will do whatever it takes to get the advantage.  I mean, their are literally millions of dollars riding on it.....

by TommyBruno on Dec 13, 2007 1:24 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

i feel like when i was in trouble
but my mom said "just wait 'til your father gets home". let's just get this painful thing done with. why make us wait until 1?

by erik on Dec 13, 2007 1:15 PM EST   0 recs

Apparently
Senator Mitchell sleeps in?  I dunno.  Most of us in the real world have our business day start at 9 am (at the latest).

Perhaps they are waiting for the Noon hour on the west coast.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 1:18 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

1PM CST
The Presser is scheduled for 1PM, I think so they have all morning to organize those that need to be there.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 1:21 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

what does it mean...
That Troy Glaus gets two lines, but the Canseco brothers are combined on one?

by tbell61 on Dec 13, 2007 1:18 PM EST   0 recs

List
This was mailed to our newsroom this morning. I don't trust it.

Note the misspellings (Schoenwiis), use of proper names (Maurice Vaughn) and nicknames (Pudge Rodriguez).

by sjoshi on Dec 13, 2007 1:19 PM EST   0 recs

I'm not buying it in full,
either... but it seems like a pretty nice starting point.
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 1:20 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Why has this speculative list been bumped
to the main thread before the official list is out?  This list is still being disputed on other sites.  Is it too much to ask people to wait an hour in order to get the real list published?  I would have expected that from VEB.

Berne's Pressbox is acting much more resonsibly.  They have an "Official Mitchell Report" thread that bans all early publishing of unofficial lists.  Now VEB will perhaps have an inaccurate list heading it's main thread all day.  

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 1:21 PM EST   0 recs

Agreed
I am discussing the report more then this list.  Larry would you mind pulling this off the main thread so we can go back to your thread from this morning?

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 1:23 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

can't
view it.  Don't know if its my computer or what

by eglasier on Dec 13, 2007 2:11 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

MLB has said
the list isn't entirely accurate. Given that, I think it's unfortunate that this site has chosen to repost it and that we're discussing it.

by DCGreg on Dec 13, 2007 1:22 PM EST   0 recs

SI.com
Jon Heyman is certain these names are on the list:

Miguel Tejada
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettitte
Chuck Knoblauch
Brian Roberts
David Justice
Jason Grimsley

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 1:22 PM EST   0 recs

Was just about to post that
thats a whole lot of AL Easters -- but no Red Soxen. I can hear the nonpartisan cry from NY already.
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 1:24 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

This list is bullshit
Misspellings, double entries, and nicknames?  Also not near enough pitchers on the list -- any guy who's been linked to a steroid rumor is on here.  Why would Mitchell list Canseco on his list when everyone already knows about him?  Please wipe this off and wait for the actual report so everyone can get some context...
"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 13, 2007 1:25 PM EST   0 recs

Better?
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 1:27 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Yes
I guess a link to it is ok, but this list has been pulled from everywhere else so far.  Only 30 minutes till the press conference so not much longer till the real deal.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 1:29 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I think for VEB to maintain integrity
the link should be removed.  It's been widely reported to be inaccurate.  It may only have a few names wrong but those people should not be published anywhere, especially if it's for our own entertainment.

Can you just say the official list will be out soon and will be published as soon as we have the real one?  

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 1:36 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Well you're no fun
the full "official*" list will be put up when it comes out.

* Minus the hundred or so other players who used and weren't named in the report.

I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 1:39 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'll downplay my "fun" if it protects
people who are implicated wrongly.  How dare I suggest that VEB act as responsibly as Bernie?  What's gotten into my head?  

I thought VEB was interested in evidence and standards.  Fun should be the least of our concerns today.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 1:45 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

agreed
This is usually a very responsible site. Not today.

by DCGreg on Dec 13, 2007 1:39 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

"For VEB to maintain integrity?"
  1.  This is a blog.  It ain't SI.
  2.  You gonna want all the links/references to mlbtraderumors.com removed next?

by sdrone on Dec 13, 2007 1:41 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

It's
a blog that has always maintained high standards -- that's why many of us like it so much.

As for the comparison with mlbtraderumors, I would have thought it too obvious to merit mention that a rumor of a free agent signing and a rumor of steroid use are two very different things. And mlbtraderumors at least makes clear, for the most part, that it's peddling speculation. This post didn't.

by DCGreg on Dec 13, 2007 1:46 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

mlbtraderumors.com has been more responsible
because it has said these links have been disputed all along.  Yes, this is a blog.  But I expect it to be a little more interested in waiting for the true report and a little less interested in our own individual fun.  It's not a tabloid, for goodness sake.  

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 1:48 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Let's not go all crazy
there will be plenty of time for outrage later.  Let's wait this thing out.
The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 1:51 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm not outraged or crazy
I'm just asking VEB to act as responsibly as other organizations.  I don't think Bernie is crazy for holding to these standards.  People shouldn't publish names they don't know to be true on such an explosive story.  That's simple fairness and respect, not craziness.

by nycardfan on Dec 13, 2007 1:54 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Totally agree nycardfan
I just don't want this site to explode into angry recriminations toward each other.  There will be alot of deserved anger at this list, no need to use it for fights amongst ourselves.

And while VEB does have high standards, no one has said its perfect.  Five minutes.....

The hot stove is burning...

by cardzfan24 on Dec 13, 2007 1:58 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

The speculation
is what MLB, the Player's Union and the players who took whatever they took brought on everyone.  It's another by-product of what they did.  

by joeyart on Dec 13, 2007 1:54 PM EST   0 recs

Speculation
I don't think anyone here is liable for simply speculating on who might be on the list. As to the PUBLISHED list in question...if it's out there making the rounds, I see nothing wrong with bringing it to the VEB members attention, so THEY can come to their own conclusions and opinions on its content. I would assume most here would see it for what it is...false information that is not fact yet.

by Timbo02 on Dec 13, 2007 1:54 PM EST   0 recs

Why do I
have the feeling that if Pujols' name, or any other current/former Cardinals, weren't on the "list", the "outrage" shown here would be less than palpable...
"It's always about the money. Anyone who says it's not is lying."- Gene Simmons

by cardsrul on Dec 13, 2007 1:56 PM EST   0 recs

On MLB TV
Harold Reynolds just said 39 of the names on the Deadspin list were false.

by bgodar on Dec 13, 2007 1:57 PM EST   0 recs

Reading Mitchell
No Pujols. I CTRL-F'd it, also.

by sjoshi on Dec 13, 2007 1:57 PM EST   0 recs

And awaaaaay
we go!
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 1:59 PM EST   0 recs

No Pujols reference
And the only references to Ankiel reference already known news stories.

by sdrone on Dec 13, 2007 2:08 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Yup, having Adobe Pro is a blessing
No Pujols, No LaRussa.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 2:09 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

TLR is included talking about
Big Mac, McKay talks about 30% use in all of baseball....

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

There's much about La Russa
they split it up into La Russa, 20 instances found.

by TICY on Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

which
is the correct spelling of his name

by baw on Dec 13, 2007 7:56 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

CODY EFFING MCKAY!!!!
you've got to be kidding me!

That is the only name that would have shicked me, and there he is!

I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 2:09 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I knew that
knuckleball was juiced!
"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Dec 13, 2007 2:47 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

On Ankiel...
And MLB already cleared Ankiel.

by Forsch31 on Dec 13, 2007 2:10 PM EST   0 recs

The checks at the end of the report
are pretty interesting.. Paul LoDuca, Larry Bigbie, Mo Vaughn, Kevin Brown, Matt Herges, Rondell White, Fernando Vina, Miguel Tejada... the list goes on.

by TICY on Dec 13, 2007 2:10 PM EST   0 recs

Gary Bennett Jr.
Larry Bigbie
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM EST   0 recs

Vina
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Cardinals
Current and former Cardinals listed in the report -- Ankiel, McGwire, Franklin, Larry Bigbie, Cody McKay, Kent Mercker, Jason Christiansen, Fernando Vina, Gary Bennett, and David Bell.

In a way, the number of journeymen, short-time big leaguers, etc. in this list makes sense.  They certainly have the most to gain from any incremental advantage conferred by PEDs.

by holden on Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM EST   0 recs

yeah!
no one of much consequence. we knew about franklin and ankiel, and pretty much knew about mcgwire. i'm surprised about some of the scrubs, but i'm glad i'm not seeing mr. pujols name on the list.

by erik on Dec 13, 2007 2:16 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Vina's
perfectly squared jaw should have been a clear sign of PED's. Nobody's goatee looks that good without help.
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 2:18 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

He was like a perfectly painted
oil canvas.  
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 2:24 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I am too
but it's important to remember, not just about Pujols, that the Mitchell report will not name everyone who used steroids.  I'd be surprised if they got 50%.

I'm not saying Pujols used steroids.  The league has been testing most of the time he's been there.  When I originally saw his name (in the deadspin link) I was surprised b/c baseball's been testing, basically, since he's been in the league.

I'm just saying that we can't say that a person didn't do steroids if his name isn't on the list.

by houstoncardinal on Dec 13, 2007 3:10 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

At least Bell got
some bang for his buck.  He went from a utility infielder with absolutely no stick for the Cardinals, to a starter with a pretty big contract in a damn hurry.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Dec 13, 2007 2:21 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Ankiel
He's named in the report only as having been cleared by MLB and not found in any of Mitchell's investigation.

by DanUpBaby on Dec 13, 2007 2:22 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Bigbie..
On December 7, 2005, Bigbie was traded to the St. Louis Cardinals. He called
Radomski to order human growth hormone to prepare for spring training. Radomski by then was
cooperating with the federal authorities, who monitored the call. Bigbie was then approached by
federal law enforcement authorities and began his cooperation with them.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM EST   0 recs

Bigbie says he had a source
in Cardinals clubhouse.  Could have been Gary Bennett, could have been anyone else.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 2:20 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Bennett I am guessing
I really am assuming it is GB, if you read his past:

Radomski said that Denny Neagle referred Bennett to him. Neagle and Bennett
were teammates in 2001 and 2002 with the Colorado Rockies. Radomski recalled one
transaction with Bennett in July 2003 for two kits of human growth hormone. Radomski
produced one check from Bennett payable to Kirk Radomski in the amount of $3,200 dated
July 13, 2003.

It seems he knew how to get it fairly well.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 2:23 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Seriously...
How stupid do you have to be to pay for your drugs with a check?

by JeffD on Dec 13, 2007 2:17 PM EST   0 recs

Memo
I was hoping someone wrote "money for performance-enhancing drugs" in the memo.

by Beware the Molinas on Dec 13, 2007 5:41 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

wonderboy, and beware...
at least you both gave me a good laugh.
Thanks, I needed it.

by the Tewk on Dec 13, 2007 11:36 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

McGwire
Maybe someone else has read this more throughly than I have, but - from what I've read, they couldn't find a shred of evidence against McGwire other than the Andro situation, Canseco's book, and his horrible testimony before Congress.

Are you telling me that he's being (so far) black balled from the Hall of Fame based on what we already know and nothing more?

by Robb on Dec 13, 2007 2:21 PM EST   0 recs

the only thing I saw on McGwire
was the Andro thing and that Canseco was the only person to say anything againt him.  Here's an excerpt:

During the course of this investigation, we interviewed a number of coaches, club
personnel, former teammates, and other persons who know McGwire. Only Canseco, who
repeated the allegations from his memoir, said he had knowledge of McGwire's alleged use of
steroids.

by Matty I on Dec 13, 2007 2:23 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Correct
The only thing new in the PDF File is that Mitchell requested an interview and McGwire declined.  THAT...IS...IT.

by lightbulb on Dec 13, 2007 2:24 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Yes BUT
I agree that blackballing McGwire from the HOF is highly dubious, but I sure wouldn't jump to the conclusion that he DIDN'T use steroids.  It's not that his testimony before Congress was "horrible," it's that it was a tacit admission of using PEDs.

by bgodar on Dec 13, 2007 2:30 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Innocent until proven guilty?
I agree that his testimony was indeed pretty bad... however, I find it interesting that with all the names the Mitchell Report lists, McGwire isn't really one of them - all that is said is what was already common knowledge.  I found it interesting that they questioned multiple sources and no one had anything to say about McGwire using steroids and that the ONLY person to link him was Canseco.  

Did his testimony make him look bad? Does his turning down Mitchell's request for an interview look bad?  Yes and yes.  

In a court of law, they'd have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.  I don't think it's enough in McGwire's case.  And considering they have multiple sources stating they never saw or knew of him using.... perhaps he's owed an apology?  

I'll be the first to agree that if he didn't do it, then he should just say "I didn't do it" and be done with it.  His choice to "not talk about the past" certainly casts a large shadow of doubt.

I suppose the point of my post is this:  I find it interesting that there was no new evidence listed about him, and wonder if it will be addressed at all, by the media or him.

This is more of a general post, bgodar, not directed at you specifically.

by SmashedAtoms on Dec 13, 2007 4:17 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Mostly talking to myself....
Has he ever tested positive?  I don't believe so.  If he has, it hasn't been made public, to my knowledge.  

Of course, it begs the question... was he ever tested?  Maybe, maybe not.  We don't really know.

I'm interested in this years HOF vote to see how he does, in light of this report.  If he does get voted in, maybe they'll bring out that statue.

On the other hand, what a vote of confidence if they unveil it now just based on this report, BEFORE the HOF vote.  

Feel free to comment.

by SmashedAtoms on Dec 13, 2007 4:57 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

In all fairness...
pretty much everything in the report comes down to what one person said. I don't believe Canseco any less than some of the suppliers.

by roebirds on Dec 13, 2007 6:42 PM EST