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sleeping beauty

ack! i overslept and am writing in tremendous haste this morning. terrible day for it, because there is so much going on: the mitchell report is due out today, the astros made a big trade, and the nontender list came out with aaron miles' name on it. addressing these in reverse order:

some of you have taken exception to the sense of celebration over the miles nontender --- which, sadly enough, represents one of the high points of this off-season. i will admit that i pumped my fist when i saw the news --- and not because i have anything against aaron miles. i concede his defenders' point that all this guy did was show up for work and perform the tasks assigned to him to the best of his ability. when, through no fault of his own, he got thrust into a larger role than he could comfortably handle, he still plugged away and did the best he could. dude even pitched a couple of times. all points well taken. it's unreasonable to hold miles responsible for the cards' decline the last couple of years --- but it's not unfair to suggest he was a symptom of a certain disease that afflicted the cards during jocketty's last two years. you could call it a lack of imagination, or maybe a failure to recognize that the 2004-05 team was finished. miles would have been a decent fit on those 100-win rosters, a steady eddy who could fill in all over the diamond, hit some singles, make the routine plays, and exude professionalism. but the cardinals in 2007-08 need guys with a broader range of skills and at least some chance of becoming average (or above-average) big-league players. miles does not possess those qualities, hence is not a good fit for the cards going forward; it's encouraging to see that mozeliak made the correct read and saw the miles' package of talents did not meet the cardinals' needs. mo has now let go 3 well-established major-leaguers --- eckstein miles and taguchi --- who had attractive superficial stats (all 3 batted .290 or above last year) but were one-dimensional at the plate, liabilities in the field, and over 30 years old, hence devoid of any meaningful chance to improve. be patient with mo, folks. the culture is changing.

the decision completes a subtle improvement at the shortstop position, which will be manned next year by two good fielders in their 20s. there's always the chance the cards could still add another shortstop, either eckstein (still out of work --- shut out in san diego, now fishing for a job here in denver) or adam everett, who was nontendered by the astros last night. if you could meld eckstein's bat with everett's glove, you'd have a damn fine player; taken individually, both these guys have the same shortcoming --- they're deficient in half the game (everett at the plate, eckstein in the field). they're also both over 30. everett's incredible glove is probably worth a couple of wins in and of itself, and on a team looking to contend this year he'd make some sense. but he's got no future; he's got zero chance to take the cardinals where they need to go. i'm comfortable with giving the opportunity to izturis / ryan, hoping one or both of them takes advantage of the chance. if neither one does, no harm done; the cards can try again next year to upgrade at the position.

Update [2007-12-13 10:10:48 by lboros]: eckstein is about to sign with toronto. [end update]

derrick goold examines everett and several other nontenders of note at his blog today. he left my favorite off the list --- josh towers, the (now ex-) toronto pitcher who went 5-10, 5.38 last year. [UPDATE: this morning derrick updated his list to include towers, who wasn't officially nontendered until after goold posted his list last night.] i think the cards ought to give his agent a call. what the hell do i see in this guy? as i said the other day, there's the great k/bb ratio --- better than 3:1 in the course of his career. and there's the dunc-friendly profile --- he's a veteran with good control and a variety of pitches who hasn't been able to harness them all into a consistent package. duncan works wonders with pitchers like that --- most recently with ryan franklin, a very similar hurler who blossomed under duncan's supervision. towers also vaguely resembles the star of this year's class of free-agent pitchers, carlos silva, in that his primary skill is the ability to avoid walks. but towers is likely to be available pretty cheap. here are a couple of projections:

IP H BB SO HR ERA WHIP
ZIPS 167 192 29 98 28 4.96 1.323
CHONE 136 159 32 85 20 4.90 1.404

both of those projections are indexed to the hitter-friendly skydome in a dh league; pitching at busch iii in the nl, i think he'd have a good chance to perform at a league-average level.

re the tejada trade, i agree with erik's take --- houston gave away too much for too little. here are the players they gave up, and their rough equivalents in the cardinal system:

  • luke scott, left-handed slugging outfielder = chris duncan
  • matt albers, 24-year-old struggling starter = anthony reyes
  • troy patton, 21-year-old left-handed pitcher = jaime garcia
  • michael costanzo, double A slugger = mark hamilton
  • dennis sarfate, quadruple A reliever = kelvin jimenez

that's quite a bit to give up for 2 years of an ex-superstar in decline. it makes the houston lineup nominally better in the short term, but it doesn't put them in a position to win anything --- and it hurts their chances of being in a a position to win 2, 3, 4 years from now. so thank you, ed wade --- the lackluster nl central just got a little bit lacklusterer.

that's it, i'm out of time --- gotta get the kids ready for school. looking forward to the mitchell report; plenty to talk about then.

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Agree big time
on the Tejada deal.  There are some looking at this deal and saying that none of the players the Astros traded away look to be superstars; that's really missing the point.  

They gave up a whole lot of very affordable playing time to bring in yet another declining star.  Even if just two of the guys they moved end up being league average for the first six years of their careers, (and trust me, at least two of those guys will) then they gave up twelve years of average play for cheap to get two years of moderately above average for damned expensive.  

Bravo, Orioles.  You may have taken quantity over quality, but you got enough to come out winners on volume alone.  Call it the Costco theory of trading.  

Punch. Drink. Cry.

by the red baron on Dec 13, 2007 10:00 AM EST reply actions  

Reny Knote
Normally I can take Reny doing the sports cast at night but last night I wanted to reach into the TV and slap him.  He was saying the same things about Miles that everyone else is "what did he do that was so bad?" but he said it on TV without any thing to support the other side of things.  I know Journalists often go with one sided opinionated stories but that one just didn't set right with me.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 10:05 AM EST reply actions  

what don't you
what don't you understand?  I was saying I know that lots of journalists tell only one side of things and use their own opinions to tell them...i.e. don't base everything on fact.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

What I don't understand is
where you get this idea? Do you work in the business? My experience has not shown that at all.

by Jhusk on Dec 13, 2007 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

CNN, Fox, etc.
I don't work in the buisness but I can tell you from stories reported about topics I know about that things are often one sided.  There is a reason CNN has the nickname Clinton News Network or that Fox is considered very Republican.  There are reasons people think ESPN is the Eastern SPorts Network.  People are biased and most stories I read in a newspaper or online show at least some leanings of bias in them, it is VERY hard not too.  This story for instance showed the Cards as making a very poor move because Miles is so good for them.  Yet it shows nothing of the reasons why the move was made and explains why it might in fact be a good baseball move.  I watch KSDK all the time and their I-Team is one of the worst for this type of thing, but I still keep watching.  Not trying to knock the industry down just stating a fairly common sentiment.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Well
Neither FOX nor CNN is exactly a bastion of fair, neutral reporting. As far as ESPN is concerned, you've got to look at, 1) Where they are located (Bristol, Conn.), and 2) Where the majority of people in the country are (the northeast). By far, the baseball teams with the largest fan bases are the Red Sox and Yankees. To get the most people to watch (which in turn gives the network more money, which in turn allows them to stay on the air), you have to cover what the majority wants.

Most of you know that I've been pretty adamant in my defense of Dan and Al. The reason for this is that journalism, and particularly sports journalism where there is rarely a clear-cut "right" or "wrong" is a lot harder than most people give it credit for. No matter what you say, no matter how you say it, somebody's gonna get pissed, and somebody's gonna disagree.

Are there journalists out there that do not to a good job of preparing and looking at each side of an issue? Of course there are. But it is by no means fair to say that the majority of journalists are that way, or even that there are "more than a few" that are like that.

My bottom line is, really, give these guys some credit. Without them, we'd have no information to talk (read: argue) about.

by Jhusk on Dec 13, 2007 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Roger Clemens
is in the Mitchell Report.  Several other 'prominant' Yankees are in there too.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 10:07 AM EST reply actions  

This is what I really hate
about this whole thing.  Not your comment, HL -- you're entitled to post it.  Just the fact that now we're going to point fingers at some and ignore those who, by sheer luck, managed to not be among the 60-80 names of people who've played mlb for the last 15 years and are listed in the report.

Don't get me wrong, I detest Clemens as much or more than anyone else and have long suspected he had done steroids -- but all we're going to do after this is point fingers at those who are listed and assume everyone else is innocent.  It's really a shame.

by chuckb on Dec 13, 2007 10:11 AM EST up reply actions  

When the 'real' Grimsley names
were leaked, Clemens, Pettitte and Tejada were on it.  I'd expect all 3 to be on this.

My only hope is that this raises McGwire's stature in the baseball community. If this list shows that he was just one of many using, then gauge him against his peers.

At the very least, the Cardinals need to get his statue out of storage and put it up.  He helped build that new stadium.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Not that two wrongs make a right
but I agree with HL. There is no black and white in this, only degrees of gray of suspicions.

For those with less suspicion, this should improve their historical evaluations - i.e. Maddux. And for someone like McGwire it could diffuse people's disrespect for him and direct it to the whole  sport.

by enoscountry on Dec 13, 2007 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

My initial reaction on the Tejada deal
was the same as everyone else's.  But I wonder:

if you had what was widely regarded as the worst farm system in baseball and 2-3 very good (and 1 outstanding) players who were about to enter the decline phase of their careers -- is it not justified to scrap whatever you have from your farm system, which wasn't much anyway, and go full-speed ahead to try to win the WS in the next 2 years?

In 2 years, Berkman and Lee will be old and vastly overpaid, Tejada will be gone -- their farm system won't have added much b/c there's not much to add -- maybe you should just say to hell w/ it and be willing to go all the way to the bottom in 2010 after trying to win it all in '08 and '09.  What do you have to lose?  Your farm system's already at the bottom.  So you lose 105 instead of 95 in 2010...whatever!

by chuckb on Dec 13, 2007 10:08 AM EST reply actions  

per Erik's take
if those players really equate to each other (Astros farm=Cardinals farm), our farm system is really pathetic.  Those guys were dispensible and yet on our side of the list, we've counted on atlest 2 of them to be huge cogs in the franchise.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

i didn't make those
equations, but i do agree with them. i'm getting tired of hearing the farm system is pathetic. i mean, it is what it is. luhnow has it on the upswing. there's more depth, but not more in terms of big impact, at least no slam dunks, other then rasmus

other then him we have--

a bunch of middle to bottom of rotation types. mortensen, herron, ottavino represent the high side. of course, none of them may pan out

a starting catching prospect in anderson

a horde few good relievers who could peak as closers in perez, motte, maiques. and some others like worrell, gregerson who may fill out the middle.

and then there's positon prospects who could peak as solid to above average regulars like craig, hoffpauir, hamilton, jay, kozma, martinez etc. or they may be decent bench players

and they are starting to be players in latin america, they spent a lot more then a lot of teams in international signings, and they are beefing up their ops in that dept.

ok, so it's not the greatest. i guess it just gets old for me to hear how crappy it is because while it has a ways to go, it is improving. they system on a whole is has probably gone from the basement to around the 15-20 area.

by erik on Dec 13, 2007 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Well
Not many teams have more than one "slam dunks".  The D-Rays are the only team that comes to mind (and you could argue they have FOUR).  
Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Dec 13, 2007 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

With you - kinda
Although my feel is that the Cards will be in the 10-15 range.  They are more a "depth" team then an "impact" team in terms of farm system, but I like the idea that we are taking fliers on the Jon Edwards, Mark McCormick, Daryl Jones, etc. etc. of the world.  Personally, I see those guys making our system either stay average or move up a notch or two...

by Lawless on Dec 13, 2007 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem is
their drafts, FWIW, are getting WORSE.  I do believe they drafted horribly again last year.  This is Wade's 1st year, correct?  So maybe that'll change.  But I don't see how the Astros have much of a shot to get to the playoffs, even if they sign 2 mediocre FA SPs to fill out their rotation.

by silent_bob on Dec 13, 2007 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Great point
But how long is Ed Wade's contract for?

Most GM contracts run on the order of, what, three or four years?  If he's thinking like you're thinking, 2010 will be the ultimate or penultimate year of his contract.  That's a bad time for your team to be losing 105 games, if you're looking for an extension.

by arch support on Dec 13, 2007 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I tend to agree...
And I'd argue the 'stros gave up less than some folks are suggesting.  The only player with real major league experience is a platoon outfielder who turns 30 this year.  I'm not an expert on the minor leaguers, but these seem like guys who project to be league average at-best - and that's assuming continued development, health, etc.

Their pitching is rather suspect, but I see houstoncardinal's argument that adding Tejada and playing for now makes more sense than "wait for the Matt Albers era."

Frankly, I expected the O's to get more for Tejada - at least a Top 10 type prospect or decent major leaguer.  He is on the decline, yes, but he is a former MVP, just over 30 and plays a premium position (kind of).  Looking at LB's comps above, even though I think Duncan is an overshoot for Scott, I wouldn't hate that deal.  Wouldn't love it, but it's certainly not the Rasmus type package folks were predicting.

by bgodar on Dec 13, 2007 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

When you say...
"Duncan is an overshoot" what are you meaning.  If you look at the lines for each guy the last two years they look like the same player...scarily similar.  Scott is three years older, but I believe he's at least an average outfielder defensively.

I think the comparison is pretty fair.

As for my take on the trade...I think the O's are winners on a talent for talent comparison, but I agree with the thought that the Stros are a couple of years away from having to tear down and rebuild.

by cardzfanbub on Dec 13, 2007 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I was mostly thinking of age
30 vs. 27 suggests Duncan is much more likely to continue developing, whereas Scott has almost certainly peaked.  But you're right, their lines are very similar.  In fact, Luke Scott's #1 comp at BR is Chris Duncan.

by bgodar on Dec 13, 2007 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

One other nugget...
Scott has a career line against LHP  of .259/.372/.431....803OPS in 116 AB's. perhaps he's more than a platoon OFer.

Duncan's line .209/.275/.357....632OPS in 129 AB's.

This little exercise has drastically reduced my opinion of Chris Duncan's value...before today I say Scott about the same as you, but he is to this point a better player than Duncan...just a few years older.

by cardzfanbub on Dec 13, 2007 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Dunc
They get more PAs against RHP though

Dunc's Splits:
.287  .375  .569  .944 614PA
.209  .275  .357  .632 142PA
.272  .356  .528  .884

Scott's
.276  .364  .534  .898 626PA
.259  .372  .431  .803 137PA
.273  .366  .516  .882

So while Dunc is your typical platoon LF (though I think he can be more, he just needs to bat against em).  In the end, yes they are very similar players until you get to the HR stat, 44 vs 28 over those very similar PA numbers.  Luke had 10 in 06 and 18 in 07 where Dunc had 22 and 21 in the same years.  Maybe Luke is improving, but Dunc is 3 years younger and has more room to improve.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

choices
the stros made a not unreasonable choice/gamble.  i'm on the orioles win side, but i can see the stros' point because its oswalt, not just position players, whose 2-year out future is unclear.

by sportsman on Dec 13, 2007 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Wait
Your kids don't have to be at school till 9:00am?

Man, to be a kid again.

by arch support on Dec 13, 2007 10:19 AM EST reply actions  

8:00 AM
Larry's in Colorado, one of those Western Time places.

by Cardinal70 on Dec 13, 2007 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Riiiiiiggghhhhtt
The central timed post tag fooled me.

<backs slowly out of room>

by arch support on Dec 13, 2007 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Time zone dif
My kids have been in school almost three hours already (since 7:30 EDT).

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 13, 2007 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

mitchell report
i hate doing this, but i am half expecting to see albert's name in it. he seems like a very good, moral gentleman and all...but face it-- he's a big fella who's too young to be bald and too old for acne. I've always had those feelings inside and now i'm voicing them, for once.

not that that means anything, i guess i'm just bracing myself for the worst.

by erik on Dec 13, 2007 10:25 AM EST reply actions  

Backne
is more prevalent with 'roid use, if I'm not mistaken.  I have thought of Albert as well but I doubt he's on the list.  Do I think he's 27?  No.  But thats all I think he's lying about.

by silent_bob on Dec 13, 2007 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree
I expect his name to be on this list as well.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Mitchell Report
I hope you are wrong, erik, and I think you are, but we should be prepare for the worst - that Cardinal names other than McGwire's will be listed.

by cardsgirl95 on Dec 13, 2007 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

OTOH
I'm over 10 years older than Albert and I still get occasional face acne.  So I don't think that's a pointer to steroids.

And yes, steroids tend to specifically "encourage" back acne.

by sdrone on Dec 13, 2007 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

to add...
I'm two months younger than AP, and I've got a pretty decent flesh halo on top of my head...that is to say I'm balding.  I've also known guys who were nearly bald in their mid 20's.

I hope against all hopes that AP's name is not on that list.  I am encouraged by the fact that his numbers have not declined greatly in the last couple of seasons.

by cardzfanbub on Dec 13, 2007 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

i admit
his giant, bulbous head gave me pause too. heck, i have greying hair and acne, and i'm 28. so maybe i should've kept my mouth shut until 1. just admitting some inward reservations

by erik on Dec 13, 2007 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Baldness
I started going bald at the ripe old age of 19, and it certainly wasn't caused by steroid use.

by Robb on Dec 13, 2007 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

if
Albert's name is on the less does it make him less of a good moral gentleman?

Not to me it doesnt. I won't be surprised either way if his name is mentioned. I could care less about the names. I think since 2004 things have changed--and the numbers prove it.

Great players are still great players. Good ones are good ones and average ones are average ones. I don't know if roids could put you up a grouping on that list.

I will see the names, talk a bit about it, and move on.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Dec 13, 2007 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

albert
you and me both, very concerned with the flap about his trainer a couple of years ago and the trainer focus of what's leaked so far.

by sportsman on Dec 13, 2007 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

That focus came from bad reporting
by Deadspin that Pujols' name as involved with Jason Grimsley.  It was found that instead, it was Clemens trainer and Roger/Pettitte were the two named.

I will say, the fact that Bernie M hasn't posted much today doesn't bode well for the Cardinals chances of avoiding a major hit.  If you read the article on the PD, they were focusing hard on LaRussa.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Should there be a Mitchell Report Diary?
Seems like it's gonna be a big deal today and many people are going to talk about it.  Might be nice to have it all together....

by joeyart on Dec 13, 2007 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

There already is one sorta
First off, I think this thread was intended to be that.  LB knew what was coming out today so I think keeping it here is best but there is already a Mitchell report diary up from earlier this week as well.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Considering
the drug culture on the Cards teams over the last ten years, I'd be shocked if there aren't a lot of former/current Cards named.
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Everytime I see a bad story about the NFL
Network, I have to chuckle.

MLB is blasted by everyone as a poorly run organization, etc and as pissed off as I was when they kept Extra Innings away from me for the first 2 games of the season, MLB ensured that 10 times as many homes will have at launch The Baseball Channel than currently have the NFLN.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 10:38 AM EST reply actions  

I too look forward
to the launch of The Baseball Channel in, what, 2019?

by bgodar on Dec 13, 2007 10:39 AM EST up reply actions  

2009
Wisenheimer.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Josh Towers would be superfluous at best
With Wellemeyer, Reyes, and Thompson on the roster, Josh Towers would be superfluous at best.  Towers is a marginal pitcher who gives up too many home runs and whose ratio of ground balls to fly balls is out of line with the Cardinal model.  

Towers' 2007 Performance

HR/9IP  1.51
BB/9IP  1.85
 K/9IP  6.39

GB%     42
ERA+    83

Towers' Career performance:

HR/9IP  1.51
BB/9IP  1.02
 K/9IP  4.80

GB%     45
ERA+    91

by CardsWin on Dec 13, 2007 11:02 AM EST reply actions  

If Pujols is listed...
... it will rock the foundations of St. Louis sports. I don't believe than any player has reached the stature in this city that Pujols has reached. Sure we have our legends of yesteryear but I believe that no single player in the history of St. Louis sports has ever reached the status that Pujols holds. Most of us agree that Albert is the best player to wear the birds on the bat since Stan the Man... and in some minds (like my own) Albert IS the best ever.

I remember when Albert's trainer was mentioned as a possible distributer. I felt like I was kicked in the gut all day long. I can't imagine what I will feel like if Mitchell names Al in this report and it scares me to death. Any and every Cardinal could be listed in this report but the one that I pray is not in number 5.

by BigMac545 on Dec 13, 2007 11:16 AM EST reply actions  

4
Shit I would hope #4 isn't listed, can you imagine what would happen if a weak hitter like him had to take steroids to be that weak hitter he is?  J/K obviously but still I am with Erik prep for the worst hope for the best.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Call me irrational
but if Pujols is on the list i'm not watching baseball this year... maybe longer.

It's odd.. i'm scared to death but also relieved to see this list.  We need to know who the cheaters are /were and they need to be punished.  

The downside is this game will be forever scarred.  

"We're too talented to let this season go down the drain." - Adam Wainwright

by stltrav09 on Dec 13, 2007 11:36 AM EST reply actions  

Doubt it
I think so many players will be named that the only scare left will be in those that didn't realize it sooner.  Steroids were a big thing in the culture of the 90s so being shocked that people possibly took them at that time is a bit naive.  I will admit I was naive about it all till recently but after the Ankiel thing I am no longer emotionally upset about these things, if AP took anything before the current testing polices what does it matter?  He won't be the only one.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

So...
Anybody who's on the list is a cheater and anybody not on the list isn't? Sorry, it's not a clean cut as that.

Also, I've got a beef with this kind of retroactive morality that seems to be infesting fandom at this point. What next? Kick out any Hall of Fame pitcher who played during the dirty ball era? Hey, it's cheating now, marking and cutting a ball to enhance your own performance, so guys like Joe Wood and Grover Cleveland must have been cheaters, right?

by Forsch31 on Dec 13, 2007 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with your beef, Forschie...
Heck, Gaylord Perry admitted throwing illegal pitches (spitter, scuffer, KY Jelly, you name it) and was still elected to the Hall of Fame!  Whitey Ford was another "scuffball" artist elected to the HoF.

Your namesake had such strong hands he was able to raise the seams on the ball, giving extra "bite" to his breaking pitches.  Since he didn't mark the leather portions of the ball, could he have been said to "defacing" the ball (illegal under baseball rules)?

Don't get me wrong... anabolic steroids can KILL you; regardless of their legality according to US law or MLB's rules, the risk of long-term harm is too great for whatever "rewards" of additional strength/quicker recovery they give you.

The "Mitchell Report" is, in my opinion, a fatally flawed effort to keep a grandstanding Congress off MLB's back.  Were I part of the MLBPA, I'd be pushing anti-PED programs as a health issue affecting my members (the players.)  I sure as heck wouldn't want to leave all drug testing and its' consequences in management hands, as things stand now!

And remember, there were substances that were LEGAL (both under US law and baseball's rules) in the late 1990's that are now ILLEGAL.  "Andro" was available over the counter anywhere in the US in 1998; today, it's considered a "steroid precursor," and as such, is illegal to possess under US law as well as being a "banned" substance by MLB.

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Dec 13, 2007 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

+1
"retroactive morality that seems to be infesting fandom at this point"

One of the more brilliant lines I've heard in a long long time.  People are sheep trying to stay fashionable.  

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Dec 13, 2007 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Pujols is on the list
many places are leaking it now.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 11:36 AM EST reply actions  

If you're talking about the list
Allegedly leaked by Bloomberg, they're denying that they leaked it and it is most likely a forgery.
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Dec 13, 2007 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Don't think it is accurate
The list I saw on Cards Talk (leaked bloomberg one I think) is most likely a fake, and as several people are pointing out until you read the context you have no idea what this "list" is.

Lets all keep things cool till we hear some facts not rumors.  I may just back away from sports sites till 130pm when the full stories are out.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

It's on CNBC now
as well as MSNBC (duh).

WNBC-TV in New York is said to have the list.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Even if..
Even if it is an accurate list, what kind of list is it.  I am not in denial and I won't be hurt if AP's name is on it but I don't think we need to overreact till we know the context.  Az has a tough assignment to do for tomorrow's post.

by StLHugo on Dec 13, 2007 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

From CNBC
Pujols is a player named in the Mitchell Report.

Sad day for Cardinals...

by plaz on Dec 13, 2007 11:43 AM EST reply actions  

haven't seen albert yet
but i have seen sheffield (big surprise) varitek and kerry wood so far at msnbc.

by erik on Dec 13, 2007 11:49 AM EST reply actions  

Kile
given the end result for our beloved Darryl, it was never appropriate to mention - perhaps not even now - but if you look at his Astro physique vs his Stl physique - you had to wonder.

by Hinkster on Dec 13, 2007 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Why not appropriate to mention?
Wondering if he took steroids in no way lessens my sorrow that he died.  And if it had anything to do with it, post the man's picture and story in every locker room in collegiate and professional baseball.
"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill

by lordsummer on Dec 13, 2007 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe i'm just looking
for a way to invalidate this list, but why is troy glaus on it twice, once out of alphabetical order?

by dpmay on Dec 13, 2007 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Expected:
This article says these players are expected to be on Mitchell's list.
WHO expects this.
Pretty shotty reporting.
What is CNBC.com some sort of speculative blog now!

by chicagocardfan on Dec 13, 2007 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

HAHAHA MSNBC is stoopid
they copied and pasted the internet leaked list and put it on the main website as 'Breaking News'.

You can tell because they listed Troy Glaus twice and misspelled many names.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 11:57 AM EST reply actions  

He tested positive
last year, I believe.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

MLB is denying the CNBC
list.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 12:07 PM EST reply actions  

Link
WNBC, CNBC, MSNBC have pulled the list down.   Statement here:
Link
9/8/1998 - Lankford's 27th

by badseed on Dec 13, 2007 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok so clean slate again
I still wouldn't be surprised to see Pujols on the list, or any other number of Cardinals.  
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Dec 13, 2007 12:09 PM EST reply actions  

if i was named on
wnbc's list and really wasn't on mitchell's report-i would sue their pants off

by erik on Dec 13, 2007 12:13 PM EST reply actions  

I don't know....
it be kind of cool to see "erik manning" on the mitchell report.
I will be brief.

by Alxfritz on Dec 13, 2007 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

t shirt idea
i should've thought of months ago

by erik on Dec 13, 2007 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

No kidding
I'd consider owning the station after that.

Then again, you probably have to prove you never did steroids.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

No, you'd have to prove
"malice" on the part of the website/network/station/newspaper that put your name in their report.  You'd have to prove that CNBC/MSNBC/whoever knew their "leaked" information was incorrect, and published (or broadcast) it anyway!

The websites mentioned have covered their backsides against libel suits by pulling their stories.

Expect the Mitchell Report to use the word "allege" a lot... as in, "So-and-so testified that (players) accepted steroids from him."  If the Mitchell Report's source is a liar, the source is left open for suit.

The Feds, remember, have concentrated their efforts on distributors of PEDs... not users.  (Barry Bonds was indicted on charges of perjury, NOT on charges of steroid use.)

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Dec 13, 2007 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually.
You could sue them for slander because they were claiming you were on the Mitchell Report and when it came out you weren't.  You wouldn't have to prove anything but the fact that the reporting was irresponsible and not fact based.
"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 13, 2007 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

you
wont be seeing guys sue--because they know what they've done. Remember ALL the guys who were going to sue Canseco for mentioning them---hmm, what happened there?

If Albert is on the list--big deal. It's not a sad day for baseball, for the Cardinals, etc. It's a day in baseball like all others...its an era like all others..it doesnt make him or anyone else "bad guys". These are human beings living in the real world--not just guys on the TV screen for our imagination. Even I forget this sometimes.

SUBURBS: Where Americans cut down trees and then name streets after them.

by beanocook on Dec 13, 2007 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

WNBC has interviewed a high ranking MLB official
Who says there are definitely errors on that list.  No word yet if Erik Manning appears on the real list.
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Dec 13, 2007 12:16 PM EST reply actions  

hey
that's only speculation. i had a perscription, too!

by erik on Dec 13, 2007 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't forget
that you may be a victim of indentity theft because you have no idea how your credit card was used, the packages were sent to your home address or how your nads shrunk.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

FWIW
It looks like they pulled the story...

by JeffD on Dec 13, 2007 12:17 PM EST reply actions  

of course MLB is going to deny it
duh
"We're too talented to let this season go down the drain." - Adam Wainwright

by stltrav09 on Dec 13, 2007 12:17 PM EST reply actions  

Why would they lie at this point?
Why would you lie for 2 hours?  They don't get higher ratings, etc by keeping people in the dark just a little longer.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

not saying they are lying
but they would deny ANY leaked report, don't you think?
"We're too talented to let this season go down the drain." - Adam Wainwright

by stltrav09 on Dec 13, 2007 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

No
I think they would just lay low.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Dec 13, 2007 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

If someone were leaking
The actual names I don't think they'd make any comment at all.  It'll all be addressed in about twenty minutes.
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Dec 13, 2007 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Is anyone questioning
The integrity of Mitchell?  For gosh sakes, he's a director for the Red Sawx.  Might there be a conflict of interests here?  How many current Red Sox players (of importance) will be on this list?
    This whole PED thing is nauseating.  The hipocracy of MLB is beyond reproach.  The problems are so deep...
mattnj

by mattnj on Dec 13, 2007 12:57 PM EST reply actions  

Varitek
I saw the team captain Varitek on the leaked list.

by ICbirdfan on Dec 13, 2007 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Hilarious
The entire NBC story came from a reporter at wnbc.com who claimed to have two sources that leaked that same list...hmmmmmm...two blogs that link to each other are not separate sources, jackass.

This is why you can't trust media outlets anymore, IMO.  They are so focused on breaking news and getting a scoop that they don't check facts beforehand and just throw it up there.  This reporter and editor should be fired if half of the names on the leaked list end up not being on the Mitchell Report.  At least the reporters for the Post had evidence against Ankiel -- this report has nothing

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Dec 13, 2007 1:14 PM EST reply actions  

Report
Former/current players mentioned (in various ways) in report:

Ryan Franklin (he previously admitted to taking steroids)
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Jason Christiansen
Fernando Vina
Gary Bennett
Rick Ankiel (talks about his potential HGH connection, with really no new evidence)
David Bell

by saladdays on Dec 13, 2007 3:40 PM EST reply actions  

OK
No one's talking about it here..just on the diary I guess.

by saladdays on Dec 13, 2007 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

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