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86'd

today is opening day for the cardinals: they play the cubs in the Sporting News' 1986 season replay via strat-o-matic. it's a promotion for TSN's online fantasy-sports division, and a lotta recognizable names are involved. the red sox will be managed by none other than curt schilling (who, by the way, is nearing a deal that would keep him in boston); former big leaguer doug glanville will be leading the phillies; howard stern sidekick baba booey is skippering the mets; and a lotta well-recognized bloggers (including 7 from SB Nation) are taking part. st louis will be managed by Deadspin editor will leitch. put yourself in his shoes for a second: after enduring the trials of the 2007 season, he's gotta spend all winter with an injury-riddled, slump-prone team that finished 79-82 . . . . . little bit of a Groundhog Day thing going there for him, no? lord knows why TSN chose to replay that particular season. never mind that it was worthless from a st louis standpoint; there wasn't a single compelling pennant race in 1986. in the nl, the mets won by 21.5 games and the astros won by 10; boston and california put the american league races away in early september. i hope they didn't go all fox sports on us and choose '86 solely for its large-market appeal. . . .

here's the box score from the real 1986 opening day. my older brother called me from one of the loge boxes at busch that night (i was at school in california); while we were on the phone, the cardinals got their only 2 hits of the game and scored their only 2 runs, which held up for a 2-1 win. most of us have forgotten by now that the cardinals got out of the gate 7-1 that year. whiteyball was at its height: the cards were the defending nl champs, coming off their 2d pennant in four years and their first 100-win season in nearly 20 years; happy memories. things fell apart in a hurry in 1986, but there was still some decent baseball left in that team.

news, notes etc.:

  • the cards turned down the option on so taguchi. altho mozeliak holds out the possibility that the outfielder might return on a renegotiated deal, gooch's career is likely over. he was an ideal fit for the 2004-05 teams, and he delivered one of the most important hits of the 2006 postseason --- the game-winning hr off billy wagner in game 2 of the nlcs. he can still play a little bit (good speed, decent on-base ability), but he's 38 years old and the cardinals need to give that roster spot to somebody with upside. thanks for the memories, gooch.
  • john dewan posted the best/worst fielders by position at his Fielding Bible site. the good news first: albert pujols had the highest score in all of baseball at +37, which means he made 37 more plays than an average 1bman would have. this is an extremely sophisticated, play-by-play-based system that accounts for the location and speed of each batted ball; this rating means that an average first baseman, given the exact assortment of batted balls that came albert's way, would have made 37 fewer plays. that's a rather phenomenal stat, and it translates into a savings of nearly 30 runs; i wouldn't believe it except for the fact that nearly every other advanced fielding system says pretty much the same thing. . . . . rolen was the only other cardinal with an outstanding fielding score (+15); both eckstein (-14) and edmonds (-10) were among the worst defenders at their position. my only quibble w/ dewan's system is that it's purely cumulative; there's no rate-stat conversion (such as, say, runs saved per 150 games) that would let us compare part-time players such as schumaker or ryan to a full-time counterpart.
  • i've been keeping an eye on South Side Sox lately, watching for any tidbits that might surface re the chisox's interest in eckstein. the other day The Cheat posted his officially sanctioned off-season plan for the white sox roster; that franchise is in almost exactly the same position as ours. read a few excerpts:
The Pierzynski and Dye extensions have dictated the Sox moves in '08 (and even '09). They've backed themselves into a position where they must spend (ridiculous amounts of) money through the free agent market in order to put a competitive team on the field the next two seasons. . . . The Sox already have $90M committed to 12 players in '08, and that's without a 3B (Crede's arbitration award not included), a SS (Uribe's buyout exercised), or a CFer (Erstad has been bought out). Filling just those 3 holes on the free agent market would push them to the $115M [limit] very quickly. . . . the Sox minor league system is in a sorry state. There are a precious few impact players in the entire system, and only one can be (realistically) projected to make the '09 team. This lack of organizational talent has cost a number of people their jobs, and further forces the hand of the front office. . . . If the Sox have the budget to field competitive teams between now and '10, they should do so as long as they don't sacrifice the key minor league talent that will push them to their next playoff contender in '11. . . . .
Cheat concludes with a set of "edicts" for the off-season, which essentially are: 1. no contracts longer than 2 years; 2. no type A free agents; and 3. no trades of key minor-leaguers. kind of interesting that the 05 and 06 champs should find themselves in exactly the same pickle . . . .

finally, here are the results of SBN's manager of the year voting:

National League 1st 2nd 3rd Points American League 1st 2nd 3rd Points
Bob Melvin 10 5 2 67 Eric Wedge 16 3 - 89
Charlie Manuel 3 5 4 34 Joe Torre 1 7 3 29
Clint Hurdle 3 3 3 27 Mike Scioscia 2 4 6 28
Lou Piniella 3 2 3 24 Mike Hargrove - 1 4 8
Manny Acta 1 2 3 14 Terry Francona - 1 3 6
Bud Black - 3 2 11 Ozzie Guillen - 1 1 4
Bobby Cox 1 - 1 6 John McLaren - 1 - 3
Ned Yost - 1 1 4 Buddy Bell - 1 - 3
Tony LaRussa - - 1 1 Sam Perlozzo - - 1 1
Bruce Bochy - - 1 1 Ron Washington - - 1 1

my ballot went 1. melvin 2. piniella 3. hurdle; i'd have put la russa 4th. melvin's team improved by 14 games despite a 12 percent decrease in payroll, and he had very few push-button decisions; the dbacks had 1st- or 2d-year players at 5 of the 8 positions on the diamond, plus two rookies in the rotation and a bunch more youngsters on the bench. he deftly handled the kids while deflecting the loss of a veteran front-line starter (randy johnson). piniella was the cubs' most important new face for 2007, imho. he acted decisively to get dead weight off the roster (barrett, izturis, cedeno) and solved the bullpen problems that bedeviled the cubs early on, turning carlos marmol from a failed starter into a high-impact reliever. without sweet lou, the cubs don't win nuthin'. as for hurdle, there's something to be said for staying the hell out of the way. when the rockies got on a roll down the stretch and got themselves close, ol' clint didn't get himself in the middle of everything; he just showed up every day, made sure the lineup card got sent to home plate, and very consciously avoided waking his players from the incredible dream they were having. and he made some good personnel calls along the way --- changed closers at midseason (from fuentes to corpas), stuck w/ garret atkins while he hit his way out of his slump, dealt ably with three injuries in his rotation (hirsch cook and lopez). he's a terrible in-game tactician, but he did a nice job with this team. good man with a compelling personal story; it was nice to see him enjoy some success.

to close the loop on this entry: hurdle was a member of the 1986 cardinals that will leitch will be managing this off-season . . . .

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Give 'em hell, Leitch!
And make sure Lindeman gets more ABs.
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Nov 6, 2007 9:16 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Screw Lindeman and his 66 ops+
I say play Clark in Right, Van Slyke in center or left, and let this guy play first everyday.  Maybe he can hit another one out of Busch Stadium!
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 6, 2007 9:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Warning: I will stink
No Lindeman on this team: It's all Van Slyke, baby. I'm having trouble figuring out who to start at catcher against lefthanders, though. Mike Heath is not an appealing option.

by williamfleitch on Nov 6, 2007 2:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As was LaVs.
For the first time in the history of earth, this is going to be said: Maybe you should go with Steve Lake.
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Nov 6, 2007 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

avoid
the hit man at all costs.  bench him, disable him, trade him, assign him to the bullpen.

perhaps in the interest of avoiding pudge and lake, you could start the secret weapon???  even though he didn't officially play a game at catcher until '88, offensively, he'd be a far superior option.

or, while he didn't play a game at catcher until '89, pinch-runner extraordinaire tom lawless would provide a more appealing option than one of the worst acquisitions in cardinal history - heath - he makes kennedy's year look strong.

by sdesserman on Nov 6, 2007 5:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Another good link - DG's blog:

Good stuff
 RE: the Cards' SS options.

"The Cardinals, chiefly manager Tony La Russa, are not ready to hand the keys to the middle infield over to Brendan Ryan for 2008. La Russa has described Ryan's role as "in the mix" for starts at shortstop, starts at second base and even starts at third base. They see him spending a full year as an apprentice of sorts -- getting a whole summer to learn to live, play and think like a big leaguer, not like a minor-leaguer given big-league playing time.

The followup question then is, Do they see Ryan as the shortstop of the future? Does that possible mean 2009?

If the organization believes that Ryan will turn this spring training into a spot on the big-league bench and turn that into a bid to be the everyday shortstop in the near future, then they should sign accordingly. That means a deal that covers `08 and possibly `09. That nixes some of the above trade talks -- Wilson too expensive; Peralta (if available) too long-term -- but heightens the attractiveness of Izturis, Vizquel (if unsigned) and, yes, Eckstein."

by silent_bob on Nov 6, 2007 9:20 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Shortsightedness
Isn't that the role Ryan should have had in 2007?  I could possibly see hiring a stop-gap/ back-up plan for 1 year, but two makes no sense to me.  
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 6, 2007 9:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know
That not putting Ryan in as the starting SS is short sighted because I am not sold either that Ryan can really put up decent MLB numbers.

by JMedwick on Nov 6, 2007 9:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That isn't the point
The point is we should have figured out if he could or could not play everyday this past season.  With Eckstein hurt, Kennedy hurt and sucking and Miles being Miles, it seems it would have been an obvious time to play Ryan at short and Eckstein at second (when he was healthy).
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 6, 2007 9:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Defense first, right?
Given the fact that we presumably have the same pitch to contact strategy (relatively safe assumption considering TLR and Duncan are returning, and Mo is at least supportive of the philosophy) - shouldn't defense come first at SS? If so, how well does Brendan Ryan rate defensively? My own eyes tell me that he's got slightly above avg range, an average throwing arm, and won't botch too many plays...let's say an avg amount of errors. If he does that, he helps the entire pitching staff. If so, I'd be ok with a .250/.320/.380 line. Can he do that?

Put another way - how much better would any of those 1 yr solutions be?

by airhad on Nov 6, 2007 10:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd say the OPS...
around .700 is pretty doable, but it's probably going to require him hitting about .270/.280 to get there...he doesn't take enough walks to have that kind of disparity between OBP and AVG.

by cardzfanbub on Nov 6, 2007 11:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

his fast start
out of the gate last season actually hurts the analysis here. his minor league track record probably tells us more...

you're right. he's not going to draw enough walks and would have to have a batting avg supported OBP. Hmmm.

He still seems in the ballpark offensively with most of the realistic options out there - Jack Wilson, Ceasar Izturis, Omar Vizquel.

Not the same with the glove clearly.

by airhad on Nov 6, 2007 11:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm a little troubled by the note
about Peralta as "too long term." To my mind he is far and away the best player in that list of shortstops (or is he?). I wouldn't mind tying up a guy like that for awhile.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 6, 2007 10:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed
Peralta is the same age a Ryan, yet alot better with more upside.  If he manages to cut down his SO he will be even better.

I doubt Peralta will be available but if he is he is 10 times better than anyone on that list.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 6, 2007 11:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Longterm can still be done
say you trade for the longterm, but 'too expensive' Jack Wilson to play SS.  Brendan Ryan in 2009 can play 2B and Adam Kennedy can be traded for a sleeve of tennis balls.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 6, 2007 11:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Adam Kennedy can be traded for a sleeve of tennis
Isn't this asking a little too much for him in return...

by gonzostl on Nov 6, 2007 12:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How about Vizquel from SF?
He would be like only the best SS coach ever. And do to his age would probably be willing to sign a 1 year deal.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 6, 2007 3:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Vizquel
was only slightly better than Kennedy last year offensively. I'm not sure we really want to go that route. If we're going to sign an old SS to a 1 year deal it would make more sense to re-sign Eckstein.

by chuckb on Nov 6, 2007 9:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Gooch
I wouldn't be all to certain his career is over quite yet.  No Cardinals outfielder can hit lefties now so we still might nee him as a cheap stop-gap for a year.  And other clubs might over-value his defensive and clutch abilities.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 6, 2007 9:37 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I've heard
The Braves are considering using Brent Lillibridge in center next year. You'd have to think Taguchi would look good as an insurance policy/bench-slayer-of-Wagner to them.

by liam on Nov 6, 2007 2:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL
National league teams should just keep trading Taguchi to whoever is playing the Mets.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 6, 2007 3:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Albert Taguchi
Or should we call him So Pujols.  His numbers might look "hall of fame" material if that happened...

by BigJawnMize on Nov 6, 2007 4:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

(amid PA echoes and crowd noise)
"Ladies and Gentlemen, now pinch-hitting against Billy Wagner for the 20th time in 3 weeks playing with his 4th Natl League East Division team.......Sooooooo Ta-GU-CHI!!"
Improve the Cardinals team spirit, integrity and positive public image...sign Bonds for 08'!

by cardschinmusic on Nov 7, 2007 4:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Regarding the defensive stats
"my only quibble w/ dewan's system is that it's purely cumulative; there's no rate-stat conversion (such as, say, runs saved per 150 games) that would let us compare part-time players such as schumaker or ryan to a full-time counterpart."

Couldn't you simply take the cumulative score and divide by innings played at that position to calculate a reasonable rate stat?  Since you're comparing players to others at the same position, the varying frequency of chances by position (i.e. SS's get many more chances than pitchers) would take care of itself.  

Not only would this allow you to compare full time vs. part time players (and players who missed games due to injury), but it would also allow you to analyze players who play multiple positions to see where they are the most effective defensively (e.g. Miles is average at 2B, but below average at SS).  You could compare players to a position average to see at which positions they are above or below average.  

by Knish on Nov 6, 2007 10:15 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

You can't just divide by innings
because the defensive metrics are based on putouts not just amount of time.  You'd need a baseline for the number of opportunities they had and innings isn't a very good proxy for that.

by azruavatar on Nov 6, 2007 11:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What about
# of plays made that the avg player wouldn't have made as a % of total plays made?  Granted, it's still lacking due to differences in pitching styles but you could still determine that:

ex:

10% of Schumaker's plays would not have been made by the avg. fielder whereas (maybe) 5% of Duncan's plays wouldn't have been made by the avg. fielder.

Why would this not work?  (I'm sure there's a reason as I'm just going off the top of my head right now.)

by chuckb on Nov 6, 2007 1:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Each play isn't created equally
so without seeing the raw data behind the plays that each defender is getting credited for or docked for, I don't see how you could translate the simple +- data into scores relative to average.

Maybe I'm totally off base here, the more I'm thinking about it the more I'm running myself in circles.  Having a +- = 0 means that you were,  on balance, neither a detriment or a help on the field.  I think that's distinguished from what the fielder SHOULD actually do.  If they make some excellent plays but biff on some easy ones, they can total out to zero.  (If I remember right, 2 years of defensive stats has the same predictive value as 1 year of hitting stats.)

So, trying to tie this back to your suggestion, the # of plays that an average player would have made would be dependent on the degree of difficulty of the plays in their zone (i.e. an average right fielder should make 97% of the 1 degree plays, 80% of the 2 degree plays, etc.) plus an average number of opportunities for each difficulty (i.e. an average right fielder sees 300 degree 1 plays, 75 degree 2 plays, etc.) then if you normalized for the difficulty and expected number of plays you could create a relative scale.  Just looking at the cumulative scores though may not tell the whole story.  

(I hope that made sense. . .I'm kinda of rambling and thinking as I type.  Again, I'm not an expert on the +/- system by any means so don't take my thinking as fact.)

by azruavatar on Nov 6, 2007 4:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ignore the italics
they're a product of me trying to use the slash character.

by azruavatar on Nov 6, 2007 4:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why not?
The way I read the stats, you get +1 for making a play that nobody else made, and -1 if you fail to make a play that somebody else did.  So that takes into account opportunities compared to other players at the same position.  Granted, pitching styles would affect the number of opportunities, but you could adjust for FB/GB ratios among pitching staffs.  

So it's not as simple as dividing by innings played at a given position, but you could get a pretty reasonable approximation after making a few simple adjustments...

by Knish on Nov 6, 2007 3:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

couple reasons
a) your assuming that each inning contains a comparable percentage of opportunities at each position -- this is wrong

b) your assuming that each player is receiving the same degree of difficulty in their plays

c) if you want an accurate representation, you'd want to adjust for FB/GB, handedness of the pitcher, park factors (both infield and outfield), etc.  I don't know how you could have any degree of certainty about those adjustments without being able to compare them to the actual answer (in this case the number of opportunities).

The innings method would be really skewed for part time players because those variances in opportunties are much less likely to be near the expected value.  I don't think it would be as easy or accurate as you think. (Although, I've been wrong before.)

by azruavatar on Nov 6, 2007 4:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I see what you're saying...
...but I still don't see why you couldn't come up with a pretty good measure.  

a) I'm not assuming that each inning contains a comparable pct of opportunities.  I am assuming, however, that with a large enough sample size, that is accounted for.  So the measure isn't relevant for someone who played 1 game (9 in) at one position.  But for someone like Miles who played a large enough number of innings at 2 positions, I think you could derive a pretty estimation.  

b) Regarding each player receiving the same degree of difficulty in their plays, with sample size, I imagine that that would get accounted for in the stat itself.  The very nature of the stat is that it accounts for the difficulty of opportunities.

c) I hadn't considered park factors and I think you're right.  Obviously for the OF.  Less so for 1B, 3B and C (foul territory), probably not that important for SS, 2B and P.  At the extreme, I suppose you'd want to account for park attributes like length of the infield grass.  But that seems pretty secondary to me.  But accounting for park factor would be a relatively straightforward adjustment by position--e.g. Petco increases LF opportunities by x%, Fenway decreases LF opportunities by y%.  

Handedness of the pitcher seems unnecesary, but handedness of the hitter seems more interesting.  

Anyway, all good points certainly.  But I still think that once you account for these variables, you could develop a rate stat based on innings played.

by Knish on Nov 6, 2007 8:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yost above La Russa?
No way, even with high fever, a bad cold, a barking shoulder, blindfolded and deaf, La Russa would manage a baseball team much better than Yost. Period.

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Nov 6, 2007 10:36 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Got to say
that one had me doing a double take, too.  Yost managed his team OUT of contention at the end and LaRussa almost managed his wreck of a team INTO contention.

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 6, 2007 11:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to bring this up again, but...
an update on possible Rolen destinations.  I still think trading him now, below market value, is a good move, if only for salary relief.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/11/yankees-aiming-.html

"Baseball is the only field of endeavor where a man can succeed three times out of ten and be considered a good performer." - Ted Williams

by WiscCard on Nov 6, 2007 10:39 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

interesting...
How would you feel if we traded him? I have mixed emotions. Primarily regarding these questions:
  1. What can he be expected to do next year? i.e. what are we missing out on?
  2. What type of return can we get on whoever we spend the newfound cash on?
  3. What's his trade value? What's the return?
  4. Who replaces him?

by airhad on Nov 6, 2007 11:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the dude just fell in love
with those beautiful Boston summers: The finest three weeks anyone can imagine.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 6, 2007 10:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the royal Schilling
What an arrogant fathead! Of course he uses the royal "we": "... this contract allows us to finish our career ..." I guess he means "me and my bloodstain." But "career" is singular: you mean he's going to share the glory with his bloodstain?! Unheard of. You love a guy who points to himself as his own hero. Thank God the Red Sox kept us from wasting time and money on that mulroney.

by Snacks LaPoint on Nov 6, 2007 12:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

C'mon
His skills lie in ballplaying, not writing. (You could call him the Verb Phrase Ellipsis Monster by the Green Monster.)

It's pretty clear to me that he wanted to write about he and his family not having to uproot again and mangled the production.

by liam on Nov 6, 2007 2:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Funny link
No, in fairness, you're right. I just like to pick on Schilling, although I admire a lot about him. He does come off as a pompous fool quite often, writing skills aside.

And I'm still glad he's not on our payroll. He wouldn't have come here for $8M, and there are many more effective ways to spend that money.

by Snacks LaPoint on Nov 6, 2007 4:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe he knows he's on Mitchell's List
and might end up pitching less than half the season once the comish hands down an arbitrary penalty.

Speculation on these points figures to twist quit a few negotiations.  Imagine signing a guy for only one year for safety, and ending up only being able to play them for half of that.

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 6, 2007 1:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Leitch
better win this thing or he's toast to me...

Regarding Ryan- He looked completely lost and/or overwhelmed at times this past season, so I see absolutely nothing wrong with an "apprenticeship" for a year, if you will, especially if he's going to be part of their youth movement. In the interim, if they can sign or trade for a veteran(even Eckstein), I see nothing wrong with it.

by cardsrul on Nov 6, 2007 11:00 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Trading Rolen
Such a trade strikes me as ill-advised unless and until we know what's going on at shortstop. The ability to plug in a weak arm/glove like Eckstein is really hampered without Rolen's range and presence next door.

Also, see above. If our fielding is near the bottom of the majors with Rolen and his +15 plays, how will it look without him? Plus, without good infield defense (and it's already tough to argue Kennedy adds anything up the middle), the whole groundball philosophy of the pitching staff is out the window.

by Red in Chicago on Nov 6, 2007 11:11 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

agreed...
I was wondering something similar in an above thread. Besides, what's out there on the 3b market anyway? Hard to beat Rolen's d. On the other hand, his offense last year was just saddening to watch. He had a nice couple of weeks after the cortisone. But his shoulder must be shredded.

btw - where in Chicago? I live near Wicker Park. Went to Sedgwick's (cards bar) when we won the world series and enjoyed a champagne shower there.

by airhad on Nov 6, 2007 11:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rolen...
If you really want to get something BIG for a player like Rolen, you probably dont do it in the offseason, wait until August after he's actually worth something again (granted he rebounds and puts up good numnbers) and then fleece some hot contending team for top prospects AND $$ you could never get with a guy coming off off-season re-hab surgury.

IF you WANT to trade SCOTT ROLEN.

If the Cards are out of it, he might welcome a trade to a contender.

Improve the Cardinals team spirit, integrity and positive public image...sign Bonds for 08'!

by cardschinmusic on Nov 7, 2007 4:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

BINGO
Well said.

Couldn't agree more, despite the fact that I loathe the idea of trading Rolen.  (Since I am optimistic that he will return to all-star caliber form in '07, albeit perhaps "unrealistically optimistic."  But, hey, isn't that what optimism is all about?)

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Nov 7, 2007 6:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

AL MOY
Who the hell voted for Ozzie Guillen and Buddy Bell?  Guillen's greatest accomplishment this year involved not calling anyone a fag and managing to keep the Sox ahead of the Royals for dead freaking last place.  I read an post on Fire Joe Morgan where he said he was pissed off he didn't bunt, steal, and hit and run more, that that somehow would have overcome the -146 run diff, one run at a time.  And Bell's great accomplishment was not losing 100 games and remembering to get Brian Bannister and Gil Meche on the mound once and awhile.  I hope those were either homer picks or jokes.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 6, 2007 12:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

LOL
But that is what I thought as well, "Ozzie and Buddy!?!  Seriously?!?"

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 6, 2007 12:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think some courageous owner
ought to assemble an all-scrappy team that bunts hits and runs takes the extra base keeps the ball down hustles never says die busts its ass on every ball always hits the cutoff man hits its spots doesn't walk anybody steals takes one for the team and then watches them finish 72-90 so we can all put that all-smallball-all-the-time philosophy to a true test and some of these guys will shut up.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 6, 2007 1:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great. There are fantasy leagues to test it
So who would be your team, the All sCrap All Stars?
Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 6, 2007 1:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Grinders
Grinders aka "Grinder Ball"  the slogan of the 2005 White Sox.

If anyone gets 670 the Score out of Chicago they will probably get this.  

Boers and Bernstein a show that runs from 2pm-6pm cover the "Grinder" joke all the time.  They make fun of it saying that Grinders don't equate to being good.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 6, 2007 4:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I can make an All-Scrappy Team
Now keep in mind I would love a band of dudes who are tough as nails and play balls to the wall 100% of the time...but hell you could get 25 construction workers, Army Rangers, roughnecks, and mob bosses and they'd try hard and be tough.  Those things only mean something when you're, you know, good too.  So here they are, the Scrappy McScrappersons:

SS-David Eckstein
1B-Darin Erstad
OF-Eric Byrnes
C-AJ Pierzynski
3B-Jamey Carroll
2B-Aaron Miles
P-Josh Fogg

Byrnes would just run all over the outfield and be scrappy everywhere...I bet he's got the energy to do it anyway.  I had to put Erstad in there but w/ Byrnes playing OF I had to move him to first.  Josh Fogg is the pitcher b/c he's the dragonslayer...His presence on the mound beats the other team's ace as Tim McCarver never failed to point out.

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 6, 2007 6:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It works sometimes, it doesn't other times
back when baseball was about pitching, and a 33 HR hitter was a monster, it made sense to play that way.  Times have changed, but a lot of the old baseball guys today were players in the 70s and 80s.  

by Valatan on Nov 6, 2007 5:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There's a great take
on an interview given by Ozzie Guillen about next year's White Sox at firejoemorgan.com... here .

by chuckb on Nov 6, 2007 5:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If a scrappy team
like that has good pitching, they will go a long way

by ridgesee on Nov 6, 2007 8:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not a free agent but still a large deal
I'd still like peoples take on what i posted here...http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/comments/2007/10/30/93856/904/122#122

I think torre to me is a strange figure when you look athim as a whole..but i think if he can win in la it will cement him as a good manager who could win without the yanks payroll...It's also inetersting to me the higher those teams payrolls got the worse they have been...They needed the role guys of those great yanks teams..

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Nov 6, 2007 12:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Torre maybe gets the media off the
Dodgers' owners' back (for a while) and makes fans think the team is going all-out to win (until they don't), but how he's actually going to make the Dodgers play better I don't know.  This move is pure PR for the Dodgers and pure retirement-fund padding for Torre.  Anyone analyzing Torre's managing abilities should look at his whole career, including the craptacular Mets and Cardinals eras, and regard Joe's time in the Bronx with a huge asterisk.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 6, 2007 12:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

thats kinda my point
he had some decent teams elsewhere other than NY but he had more than a few teams that hed like removed from the list
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Nov 6, 2007 1:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Lbros and those who run the site
Listening to the heard today and he tends to get on my nerves but its xm and it beats local radio mornings here...neway he was commenting on the Fire that got started in the media about the colts cheating..Espn checked it and its totally false...his rant(which he does daily) was about media and how they need to check facts and how the internet blogs just post stuff and how the superbow and ws are careful who they let in..and mentioned there was even stuff that was good on web

made me appreciate here you guys to a good job and the most part fans to as not passing stuff as fact on here when its a rumor..one of the many reasons i liek this site..keep up the great work.

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Nov 6, 2007 1:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Rolen wanting out?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21647171/

Oh boy.  Story is that Rolen is willing to waive his no-trade clause to get out of St. Louis.  

Story quoted below

St. Louis Cardinals third baseman Scott Rolen may waive his no-trade clause to escape manager Tony La Russa, the St. Louis Post Dispatch reported Monday.

Rolen, who has battled shoulder problems the last two years, was benched for a few games during the 2006 postseason, causing a rift between he and La Russa, who just signed a two-year contract extension.

The two claimed they had patched up any differences, but it was obvious there were problems between the two and according to the report, the club now acknowledges the problem.

"Scott's situation is still ongoing.  We hope to address it internally," new Cards general manager John Mozeliak says. "It's fair to say there are some things out there."

Rolen, who is expected to participate fully in spring training after undergoing his third shoulder surgery since August 2005, hit .265 with eight homers and 58 RBI in 112 games.

However, any trade possibility is compromised by Rolen's shoulder and his contract, which provides him $36 million the next three seasons.

"(His agents) and I are trying to resolve this from within," Mozeliak says. "If for some reason it doesn't work, we'll pursue alternatives."

by Cybit on Nov 6, 2007 1:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Old news
it is a rehash of the same article from a few days ago.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 6, 2007 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah...
I just saw the date...doh. :P  

by Cybit on Nov 6, 2007 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Foxsports article
I love when these national writers sloppily assume things just to fill out their articles.  From Tracy Ringolsby at Foxsports.com, talking about teams that need starting pitching:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7400932
"St Louis, which converted two quality relievers into starting roles last year and paid the price"

So, the fact that we converted 2 bullpen guys to starters, who became our 2 best starters over the course of the year, and still had a stellar bullpen, how's that "paying the price"?  Yes, our starting pitching sucked last year, but it wasn't because of AW and Loop.  In reality, those 2 guys were the only thing about our rotation that wasn't a trainwreck.  Seems a lot more accurate to say that we gained a cheap #2 and #4-5 starter without hurting our bullpen.  I'm sure we would've been much better if those 2 guys were in the pen.

by CardFaninVA on Nov 6, 2007 1:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Nobody accuses FOX of Accuracy
It's not their job, because that's not what their readership/viewership wants.  Poking holes in their analysis is as futile as ..... (I'll think of a good one later, or someone else can help here).
Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 6, 2007 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oooooooooooo
I got one!  "Poking holes in their analysis is as futile as waiting for an original thought from Joe Morgan or Tim McCarver."

YES!

Nailed it!

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Nov 6, 2007 2:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Next!
"Poking holes in their analysis is as futile as..."

Putiing Wells, Wellemeyer, Maroth and Reyes in the rotation?

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 6, 2007 3:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And Waino...
...basically matched whatever Carp can do when he's healthy during the last 1/2 to 2/3 of the season.  

by saladdays on Nov 6, 2007 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I've never liked it when people say
"we converted Wainwright from bullpen guy into starter."

No, we didn't.  The bullpen thing was never anything more than short term for him.

by sdrone on Nov 6, 2007 2:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not necessarily
if Weaver had signed w/ the Cards, Wainwright likely would have been left in the pen. That was Tony's preference for last season. Fortunately, for any number of reasons, we didn't re-sign Weaver.

by chuckb on Nov 6, 2007 5:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I seriously doubt that
Esp. since Izzy came back healthy.

by sdrone on Nov 6, 2007 9:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Doubt it if you like
but it was Tony's preference. Wainwright would have been the setup man.

by chuckb on Nov 6, 2007 10:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tracy Ringolsby
The same guy who mistook Tim Lincecum for Noah Lowry in his last column. Nice portfolio he's putting together for his impending job search.

by liam on Nov 6, 2007 2:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ringolsby
I guess it won't hurt that he has "Hall of Fame 2005" on his resume.

by flynn on Nov 6, 2007 4:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're assuming
that was a mistake. I wouldn't assume that. It would take a huge bounty to get him (I've read Carl Crawford), but it's possible Lincecum is actually on the table.

by chuckb on Nov 6, 2007 5:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"A Quality Bat"
That describes the bounty necessary to dislodge Lowry, not Lincecum.

That'd be a "transcendent" bat or something similar.

by liam on Nov 7, 2007 1:03 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Having played both
I prefer Dynasty League Baseball (fka Pursue the Pennant) to Strat-O-Matic. I find it simpler to play yet deeper in complexity, if that makes any sense.

I remember back in 1988 getting Pursue the Pennant. I bet I replayed the 87 World Series a dozen times the first day I had it. I still have most of the cards from that 1987 season somewhere. I remember Jack Clark as having an enormous range where he could draw a walk.

by 26thMan on Nov 6, 2007 1:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Sometimes you have to step back and
see things from a different light.

Andruw Jones had a terrible year last year. He hit the low .200s, had one of his worst power years and found himself batting in the bottom half of the order for much of the year.

However, 30 year old players don't just forget how to hit.

Career Total (thru Age 30): 368 HRs
Average per full year: 34 HRs

Andruw Jones, despite his best efforts to hit as close to .200 as possible is still within reach of 700 HRs (baring injury).

Hank Aaron thru Age 30 hit 366 homeruns.
Barry Bonds thrus Age 30 hit 292 homeruns.
Willie Mays thru Age 30 hit 319 homeruns.

I think people need to factor into Andruw Jones free agency that he very well could be signing with a team that he will hit his 700th homerun with.

It's insane to think that a player who still has that potential is generally panned by baseball analysts and isn't the hottest ticket in the FA market.

I'm not saying he is going to be a world beater, but if JD Drew can get $14 M a year, Jones has to be able to get atleast $17.  Some shrewd team will sneak in and get him on a 5 year deal at a below top dollar price and loaded with incentives.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 6, 2007 2:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Jones
Jones to me is attractive, especially if it is incentive laden.  He is one player I would not be upset to see signed for 3-4 years or so, primarily since we would probably move him to RF in 09 or 10 so Rasmus could take over full time, this would allow Jones to focus on gaining his stroke back.  Could it be like moving Griffey from Seattle to Cincy?  I would be all for that personally.

by StLHugo on Nov 6, 2007 4:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So you're advocating
hamstring pulls as the solution to our outfield woes?  =D

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 6, 2007 5:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn't advocating Andruw Jones
for the Cardinals, unless we dump some OF for pitching...but rather was just talking about the fact that there simply isn't a buzz for him.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 6, 2007 5:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

andruw needs to eat less
and then he might return to form
and stop trying to pull the ball
he wouldnt listen to anyone about hitting the other way last year
i say pass

but i would also like us to take a flyer on Kaz Matsui and return him to short if he hits the market rather than giving eck 2 or (gasp) 3 years

Come on 2009!

by benstl on Nov 6, 2007 2:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Interesting idea
Do you bat him 2nd?  Can he bat leadoff?  

If he can't bat leadoff, who's gonna do it?  Our 2nd baseman, whomever that is?

by sdrone on Nov 6, 2007 3:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

kaz
He can hit leadoff, and did the whole time that the rockies were without Willy Taveras late in the season.   I would be surprised if the rockies didn't bring him back - they don't have a true second baseman ready to take that spot yet.  If he does actually hit the market, could be a good fit in St. Louis.

by cdb on Nov 6, 2007 4:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Where would he fit
Where would he play?

He used to play SS but I think they realized he just was not able to hack it in the big leagues.

I know we have Kennedy who I would not mind seeing leave, but we have this Hoffpauir that people think could be a decent player for a cheap price.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 6, 2007 4:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

clarify
As I understand it - it wasn't so much that he couldn't hack short stop as it was he was not comfortable in New York. he has played second in Colorado because that is where they had room - they had Clint Barmes at SS.  

by cdb on Nov 6, 2007 6:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Plus/Minus Leaders
Tulo +35, Braun -41......WOW

Grudzielanek +7  Could-a Would-a Should-a

Eck -14, Jeter -34......OK then

by 20 45 on Nov 6, 2007 3:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

lboros-groundhog day
one of my all time favorite movies. murray is genius.

by erik on Nov 6, 2007 5:27 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The best script of
the last 20 years -- right behind the Big Lebowski. It was simply genius; fantastic writing.

And Murray was unreal.

"Are you drunk?"

"No, drunk is more fun."

"Whitey said that '86 was so bad 'the highlight of the season was a foul ball'"

by Alxfritz on Nov 6, 2007 5:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Groundhog Day....
" Don't drive angry...Do not drive Angry."...

by Timbo02 on Nov 6, 2007 6:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what no love for
Ned riorson(SP)
I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Nov 6, 2007 6:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

bing!
got a real bad case of the shingle senipr year, almost didn;t graduate!
"Whitey said that '86 was so bad 'the highlight of the season was a foul ball'"

by Alxfritz on Nov 6, 2007 6:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ned the head!
am i right, or am i right or am i right?

by erik on Nov 6, 2007 8:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And my favorite...
"This is one time where television really fails to capture the true excitement of a large squirrel predicting the weather."
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Nov 6, 2007 7:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I am absolutely disgusted...
with MLB Managers/Coaches right now.

Russell Martin...seriously? What a joke. If I were Yadier Molina, I would just go to the press and declare myself the winner, and say %# Rawlings.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Nov 6, 2007 8:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

don't even bother with the media
just show up on opening day with a catcher's mitt spray-painted gold.  Heck, if I was albert I would paint the glove the night before and leave it in his locker.

by SleepyCA on Nov 8, 2007 1:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not Really News News
JP Ricciardi has officially made AJ Burnett available.  

Not that he hasn't been to discussed to death by us over the past few weeks, just letting everyone know that he's officially on the table.

"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Nov 6, 2007 9:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Since they re-signed Matt Stairs
I don't see how we could realistically get him. They wouldn't want Duncan. Maybe 3 prospects centered around Garcia and Anderson would do it, but I wouldn't do that. Molina might pique their interest but Anderson's not ready quite yet. Just doesn't seem to be a match at all anymore.

by chuckb on Nov 6, 2007 10:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you
I don't think we can get him.  At least not without parting with guys we shouldn't be parting with.  
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Nov 6, 2007 11:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Again
there is an article on ESPN that says that Haren is available.

I know Beane is the type that would see value in Reyes in a stadium like Oaklands.

Could we get Haren back? It's not like Duncan doesn't love him.

by Harknights on Nov 7, 2007 12:32 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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