Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Around SBN: Interview With UMD Athletic Director, Dr. Debbie Yow

Gold Gloves are out (No Cardinals

Dear Diary,

Can you please tell me how to pick the wrong people for Gold Gloves?

C: Ivan Rodriguez, DET
1B: Kevin Youkilis, BOS
2B: Placido Polanco, DET
3B: Adrian Beltre, SEA
SS: Orlando Cabrera, LAA
OF: Torii Hunter, MIN
OF: Grady Sizemore, CLE
OF: Ichiro Suzuki, SEA
P: Johan Santana, MIN

NL
C: Russell Martin, LA
1B: Derrek Lee, CHC
2B: Orlando Hudson, ARI
3B: David Wright, NYM
SS: Jimmy Rollins, PHI >
OF: Aaron Rowand, PHI
OF: Andruw Jones, ATL >
OF: Carlos Beltran, NYM >
OF: Jeff Francoeur, ATL
P: Greg Maddux, SD

Star-divide

Derrek Lee?  Jimmy Rollins?  Why even have defensive metrics?

0 recs  |  Comment 50 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Martin isn't a bad defensive catcher
by any means... but COME ON!
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Nov 6, 2007 4:50 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

the eyes
don't have it. morons. and lee is so overrated at 1B, it's ridiculous.

by erik on Nov 6, 2007 5:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wha?
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/moron

1usually offensive : a mildly mentally retarded person2: a very stupid person

by erik on Nov 6, 2007 8:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Leave me out of it.
I'm not a voter.

Any team in arbitration with a player whose agent points to a former gold glove and says: "See! He's great!" can now make talky-mouths with the hand and ask why Yadier can make talky-mouths without a gold glove getting in the way.

I'd make a better joke, but Yadier losing out on the GG really makes it pointless.

by liam on Nov 7, 2007 12:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What a rip off...
Yadi should have at least got the gold for catcher.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 6, 2007 4:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Russell Martin
They stole 71% of the time off him and he had the MOST ERRORS of ANY NL Catchers...

What a Joke!

by whatapartier on Nov 6, 2007 4:52 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

DLEE
Did he do bad this year?  I just always heard everyone say how good he was defensively.  I watched a handfull of Cubs games and he looked pretty damb good.  

When Lobros did his post for today and showed the defensive rankings DLEE was not in the top ten.

How did he win the GG?

by ICbirdfan on Nov 6, 2007 4:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Awful

D. Lee
FPct  .994
RZR   .724
OOZ     24

Helton
FPct  .999
RZR   .808
OOZ     42

Pujols
FPct  .995
RZR   .843
OOZ     51

Helton and Pujols also both have considerably more putouts and assists than Lee.  Helton had a grand total of 2(!) errors this season.  Lee had 7, though Albert had 8.  Adam LaRoche and Conor Jackson were also better than Lee in most defensive categories.  In fact, Lee runs neck in neck with Ryan Howard in most categories, who is considered by most to be a butcher in the field.  

I don't get it.  Martin isn't a great defensive catcher either, he's not even in the same league as Yadi in that respect.  And through for some reason people still think Wright is a premier defensive third baseman, his numbers really slipped this year, a number of NL third basemen performed much better defensively.

These awards are a joke.

"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Nov 6, 2007 5:03 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Covering my own back
As for the Howard/Lee comparison, I should note that Howard had 12 errors.  Other than that they're within points of each other in all the major categories.
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Nov 6, 2007 5:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And for SS
I was surprised to find that Rollins had the third highest fielding percentage of an NL shortstop, behind only Tulowitski and Vizquel.

This must be because his zone is smaller than those of Edgar Renteria, Jack Wilson, Rafael Furcal, Khalil Greene, Troy Tulowitski, Alex Gonzales, Jose Reyes, and Omar Vizquel.

Should have gone to Troy or Omar.  

"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Nov 6, 2007 5:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Jimmy Rollins
I always thought Rollins had pretty good range.  He makes some highlight plays throwing from the deep hole or some plays up the middle.

Albert probably cost himself the GG because he is so aggressive.  Albert made a few stupid throwing erros this year.  He seems to like to throw more than most 1B and he tends to have a couple throwing errors each year.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 6, 2007 5:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

His RZR
Is better than Eckstein's.  It's still the sixth-lowest among qualifying NL shortstops.  He did make a decent number of plays out of zone, lower than a couple of other guys though.
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Nov 6, 2007 6:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It is No Secret that this is one of the worst
awards in all sports in terms of how poorly misguided the voters are.  And off course having MLB  managers and coaches as voters is more than partially to blame.  Rawlings should be embarrassed by how bad this reflects on them.

Even the fans (including ballot stuffers) could do a better job.  It is just a shame that such a historical award is rendered virtually meaningless because of how poorly it is administered.

Could we ever have a Sabermetricians Gold Glove Award based purely upon an agreed upon statistical method, just like a batting title so the race can be charted during the season?

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 6, 2007 5:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

GG criteria
Here is all you need to do to win the GG.
  1. Be a household name
  2. Be good offensively
  3. Just be in the top 8 fielding at your position.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 6, 2007 5:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't they already have one?
Fielding Percentage has been around, like, forever.  

(and it's probably just as useful as batting average for calculating who the gold glove winner is...)

Sarcasm off, I'm actually more upset over martin robbing Yadi than I was about Howard robbing Albert for the MVP last year.

by SleepyCA on Nov 6, 2007 5:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Come on Sleepy, I know you can do better
than that.  I noticed your sponsorship of Ryan's page on Baseball-Reference.com , do any others?

FP is certainly not good enough since it leaves to judgement the "official scorer" that nobody ever sees.  And there does seem to be a correlation that players with the least range make the fewest errors (although I can't prove that).  There are too many park, pitcher, team mate effects to make a simple formula.  Maybe Sig Mejdal has one.

One would think that at least one of these website stathead outfits could try to adopt some formula and test it against the annual award voting.  I would love to see it.

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 6, 2007 5:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

tough
It is such a tough thing to vote on.

We know the guys who are awful defenders: Ryan Braun, Pete Incaviglia, Todd Hundley....

When it comes to ranking the best it is really tough.  What is the real difference between Troy Tulo, Omar Vizquel, Yadi, Pujols, DLee..

All these guys are very good and it is really hard to say who is better.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 6, 2007 6:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you missed my sarcasm tag ;)
The article I linked to was heavily invested in validating the players chosen using their fielding percentages, and that bothered me, so i behaved immaturely and mocked it.

Anyway I think the problem with sabermetric fielding tools (not that I have any kind of actual expertise or insight, lol) is that there really isn't one that has achieved widespread acceptance.  Fwiw the blog "on baseball and the reds" has a good series of articles about some of the different statistical tools in development.  One will probably eventualy be developed that "works" better than the others, and it will achieve widespread acceptance, and there will be great joy.

Fun discussion here:  http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/mlbc25/

Also sponsoring Famous Warrior, btw.  

by SleepyCA on Nov 6, 2007 6:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the link to baseball on the reds
Too bad that kind of work doesn't get out before the awards.  Maybe in the not too distant future even those coaches and managers that vote will pay attention to this stuff.
Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 6, 2007 9:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's a shame, though
that awards like Gold Gloves, MVPs and ASGs are used for/against players in contract negotiations.

To be fair, Yadier probably missed too much time. Still, how many millions of dollars did Yadier lose the past 2 seasons because the Gold Glove voters knew Russell Martin's name better?

by sjoshi on Nov 6, 2007 5:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

to be blunt
yadi got fucked
baseball is like church. many attend but few understand....wes westrum, catcher

by El Capitan on Nov 6, 2007 5:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Indeed
I don't often agree with Bernie at the P-D, but he said that if Yadi doesn't win this year it will expose how crappy the GG awards are, and I agree. Bah!

by roebirds on Nov 6, 2007 6:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I swear
there was some sort of memo handed out by some one either in the media or with MLB that everyone should ignore all things St. Louis Cardinals.

I know we had a pretty bad year, but man you would think the Cardinals were playing in Iceland with no media coverage what so ever when it comes to stuff like this.

by KYCards on Nov 6, 2007 6:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Insane!
Who else can do what Yadi did to Willie Harris in this game (check out the video clip "Molina's throw from kness"):

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070722&content_id=2103512&vkey recap&fext.jsp&c_id=stl

I was sitting right behind home plate, and this was the third steal attempt by Harris in the series.  Yadi nailed him all three times, with this one being the third.  I had to go home after the game and check the highlights to make sure I really saw what I thought I did.  Amazing play - best I have ever seen live from a catcher.

by wildman on Nov 6, 2007 6:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

No doubt
Or how about the 1-2-3 double play that Wainwright and Yadi turned against the Astros on a squeeze play in April:

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070406&content_id=1882798&vkey recap&fext.jsp&c_id=stl

Not many, if any, other catchers could pull that one off.

by wildman on Nov 7, 2007 1:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What a butcher job
I guess it's preaching to the choir what a joke it is for Molina not to be the winner, but I will search for the silver lining: at least Jeter didn't get a GG for being the worst defensive SS in the game this side of Hanley Ramirez.
Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Nov 6, 2007 6:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

the people who deny the big city bias
are nuts
all you have to do is point to the fact yadi has zero gold gloves
its pathetic and cheapens the award
and albert makes plays no other first baseman does
he plays more aggressive and turns the double play like no one else ive seen at first in a long time
Come on 2009!

by benstl on Nov 6, 2007 6:33 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Brad Ausmus
won it last year.  Houston's a major market?

First it was an east-coast bias and now it's a major city bias?  OK.  

by chuckb on Nov 6, 2007 9:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like it when
the best that the MLB writer can say about Martin is that he played the most games there.

Really?!?

That gets you a GG?

It's not the least days missed award.

by Harknights on Nov 6, 2007 7:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

From the LA Times
"In his second season, Martin led all major league catchers with 145 games played, 1,254 innings caught and 1,065 putouts. He also led the NL with 7.64 putouts per nine innings, 0.61 assists per nine innings and 11 double plays. Martin threw out 29.7% of runners attempting to steal against him, the fourth-highest percentage in the National League."

I believe a catcher gets credited with a putout for a strikeout. The Dodgers had 1184 strikouts this year, the Cards had 945.  So two of those stats are meaningless.  And Yadi had 8 DPs, or 1 every 106 innings, where Martin had 1 every 114.  The other comments have been debunked above.  It's very hard to justify this award except by Martin's offense, which admitedly looks great for his position.  

by Secret Weapon on Nov 6, 2007 7:47 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

145 games is legitimate
Yadi played 111, I think.  Yadi was 14th in the NL in innings; Martin was 1st.

Yadi's the best defensive C in baseball; most everyone knows that.  But those who pretend that Martin stinks and didn't earn consideration for the award are silly.  Martin's CS% was the highest in the NL (tied) among C w/ 900 + innings.  

by chuckb on Nov 6, 2007 9:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think
most posters are saying that Martin is bad because he isn't.  But as you said yourself, Yadi is the best defensive catcher in baseball.  Isn't that what the Gold Glove is supposed to represent?  The best defense at a given position not most innings played.

   

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 6, 2007 10:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Who votes for them?
MLB managers and coaches

Why do we expect them to get it right?  They don't do a very good job (along w/ the players) in the All-Star game.

People are calling this a "disgrace" and "an absolute joke" that Martin won it.  He's not the best but he's not completely undeserving either.  Maybe if Yadi plays 125 games or 130 next year, he'll win it.  I just don't see the point in getting all worked up about it.  It doesn't really change anything.  

by chuckb on Nov 6, 2007 11:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
that Martin is not completely undeserving, he is certainly above average.  But he is not the best behind the dish with the glove, Yadi is.  The Gold Glove should reflect that.  And I would think that managers and coaches should be able to figure that out because they change their game plan when Yadi is behind the plate.  They respect his defense during the season, why shouldn't that respect translate into a vote at the end of the season?

And I do think there is a point "in getting all worked up about it".  The Cardinals (like most teams) give their players bonuses for major awards.  Yadi has been cheated out of that bonus two years in a row now.  And Gold Gloves are the type of awards that look good on a player's resume.  

 

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 7, 2007 8:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Once again...
The GG is not based on number of games played.  You really cannot say Martin deserved this award more than Yadi.  They simply voted for the wrong guy.  It is such a joke that I don't even know what to say accept wow.

by Mrthe2th on Nov 7, 2007 11:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what a joke
the gold glove awards are now meaningless
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Nov 6, 2007 10:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

As long as Martin stays healthy
he probably has this award locked for the next 4-5 years at least.

Especially now with Torre in LA the media will be covering the Dodgers alot more. And Martin will be in the spotlight.

So I would say Yadi is out of luck of winning a gold glove anytime soon.

Face it Martin is the up and coming star and is the "sexy" pick for alot of the voters. So as much as I hate it, Yadi is probably shut out of this award for a few years at least.

by KYCards on Nov 6, 2007 10:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

well,
even though it seems like the voters let us down now, it looks as if Pujols will win Silver Slugger. His line of .327/.429/.568 ranked best among NL 1st basemen. Even though the winner of the SS the last couple of years has had a decent amount of HR's (2006-Howard .313, 58 HR; 2005-Lee .335, 46 HR), the only other 1st basemen w/ atleast 25 HRs in the top 35 is Fielder (.288/.395/.618).
trade for miggy & the d-train!

by dunc4life on Nov 6, 2007 11:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

...And Fielder hit 50
Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Nov 7, 2007 8:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I may sound like a teenager right now
but this is absolutely ludicrous and fucking disgusting.  

Rawlings HQ is located less than a mile from me.  I say we fucking write a presentation and I'll personally print it and hand deliver it.  

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Nov 7, 2007 10:45 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

awards
I guess it makes good debate but all the awards are meaningless.  People complain about awards when their team does not win.

In 06 I could care less about all the awards as the Cards got the best award in MLB.

Wait till next year!  maybe??

by ICbirdfan on Nov 7, 2007 11:30 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

GG's
are becoming like probowls for Olineman..Names stick if d lee healhty last yr he probably wins it.

surprised though that martin won and not ausmus again..

I can't believe i gave up a homerun to that punchinjudy hitter-major league 2

by punchinjudy on Nov 7, 2007 11:58 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

a couple things
yadi is hurt i am sure by only playing in about 2/3's of his teams games, but what about palmeiro winning at first a few tears ago when he played 8, that's right, 8! games at first?

in my opinion, that shows how incompetent they are when voting

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Nov 7, 2007 1:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Dear Voters
If you're going to argue that Martin was solid and played in all the games, that's fair.  I disagree, but whatever its your vote not mine.  But then don't give the award to Raphael Pointingthefinger when he plays EIGHT (as in one less than fucking 9) games at a position or to Torii Hunter when he plays roughly half the season before getting hurt.  Be fucking consistent!  I swear they come up with the guy they think should win and then come up with an argument for why he should win it, instead of the other way around.  

But Jeter didn't win the AL...About damn time.  Its a joke when the player who wins the GG for shortstop has less range than the base to his immediate left...not the player, the fucking base.  I bet the left field foul pole had a higher range factor than Jeter did this year.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 7, 2007 3:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Question of the hour
How many people voted for Ryan Braun despite his awful fielding?

That should make a pretty clear determination of how bad the voters are. My guess is Braun finished 2rd or 3rd for NL first basemen.

by JMedwick on Nov 7, 2007 5:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the Internet's #1 St. Louis Cardinals blog.
Start posting about the Cardinals »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Img_0981_small
Put Some Hot Sauce On My Burrito (It's OT, Yadi2.)
God_small
Albertofstan fact sheet
Gawstab_small
Offensive Ability Rating Rankings for 2009
Royconrad_fullthrottle_small
25 players : 25 seasons, 1910-1934

Recent FanPosts

4849_buschstadium_small
My Hall of Fame Induction Speech
Mightymouse_small
Schumaker Gets New Contract
39135485-59af19dbb26654095f910f34176af094_4ae8a81e-scaled_small
Predictions Group
The_i
VEB Day 2010 v2.0
Small
Spring Training Split Squad?
Cardwash_small
Chris Duncan signs minor league contract with Nats, also a great pic of him

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Jack_benny_small DanUpBaby

Editors

Bender1_small azruavatar

Le-samourai_small the red baron

Adam1_small chuckb