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Around SBN: Jerry Sandusky's Wife Tries To Run A Reporter Over

troy for ROY

over the next few days we'll be announcing the results of the 2d annual SB Nation baseball awards. same rules as last year: each blogger gets one ballot and votes only for the league his/her team plays in; in addition, one non-SB Nation blogger for each team gets a ballot (erik manning of Future Redbirds, in the cards' instance). apparently not everybody exercised their right to vote, because there were only 40 ballots cast (out of a possible 60) in the rookie-of-year polling, which is posted herewith. a 1st-place vote is worth 5 points, a 2d is good for 3, and a 3d is worth 1. the tallies:

National League 1st 2nd 3rd Points American League 1st 2nd 3rd Points
Ryan Braun 13 6 2 85 Dustin Pedroia 15 4 - 87
Troy Tulowitzki 7 9 3 65 Jeremy Guthrie 1 6 2 25
Hunter Pence - 4 9 21 Brian Bannister 2 2 4 20
Kevin Kouzmanoff 1 - - 5 Daisuke Matsuzaka - 3 5 14
James Loney - 1 1 4 Reggie Willits 1 1 1 9
Micah Owings - 1 1 4 Delmon Young - 1 3 6
Chris Young - - 2 2 Hideki Okajima - 1 1 4
Yovani Gallardo - - 2 2 Rafael Perez - 1 1 4
Tim Lincecum - - 1 1 Travis Buck - - 1 1
Rafael Perez - - 1 1

my ballot went 1. tulo 2. braun 3. pence. it was hard not to list braun #1, given his pujolsian rate stats (.324 / .370 / .634), but in the end i deemed him too one-dimensional --- an elite slugger, but one of the worst fielders in the league at any position. he also spent the first two months of the year in the minors, which was largely his own fault (the brewers didn't trust his glove enough to make him their opening day 3d baseman). pence, too, had better rate stats than tulo but missed 2 months of playing time (one on the dl, one in the minors). i voted for tulo as much for his glove as his bat; he played gold-glove D at the most important position on the field while contributing well above-average offense. like most rockies, tulowitzki had a sharp home / road batting split; he was not nearly as impressive with the bat as braun or pence. but he also was the only one of the three who got better as the year went on; he raised his slugging avg 100 points in the 2d half, while the other two saw their numbers slide as the league adjusted to them. i thought tulo had the most complete year of any nl rookie, contributing at a high level from wire to wire, in both halves of the inning. according to VORP, tulo was 19 runs less valuable than braun at the plate; he almost certainly was 19 runs more valuable in the field.

i don't mean to denigrate braun; he had one of the most eye-catching rookie seasons in recent memory and is a very deserving winner. indeed, he and pence would be slam-dunk winners in nearly any other season, and chris young would have made a deserving honoree in most years. 2007 was an incredible year for rookies in the nl.

here's a numerical comparison of the top 3:

 G AB  R  H 2B 3B HR BI BB SB CS AVG OBP SLG VORP WSAB
tulowitzki 155 609 104 177 33  5 24 99 57  7  6 .291 .359 .479 37.8  12
braun 113 451  91 146 26  6 34 97 29 15  5 .324 .370 .634 57.2  13
pence 108 456  57 147 30  9 17 69 26 11  5 .322 .360 .539 40.5  11

we'll announce manager-of-year awards tomorrow, cy youngs wednesday, and the mvps on thursday and friday. a few more odds and ends:

  • david pinto has begun revealing 2007 results for his fielding metric, PMR (probabilistic model of range). yesterday he posted the team-by-team results; the cardinals ranked 21st. per this model, they only made 5 plays fewer than an average fielding team would be predicted to make, which translates into 3 or 4 runs; ie, the model doesn't think the cards' lax D in 2007 was particularly costly. but it was still costly in the sense that defense has long been one of the cards' core strengths; it was a weakness last year. the cardinals ranked #1 in team PMR in 2006; in 2005 they ranked 6th, and the year pinto created this metric (2004) they ranked 1st. we don't need PMR to tell us the defense was significantly worse last season --- most of us has noticed it after a month's worth of games --- but this objective model confirms our subjective impressions and adds a sense of proportion to them. it was a serious collapse.
  • sounds like the marlins are pretty serious about trading miguel cabrera. he's entering his 2d year of arb eligibility, meaning he can be a free agent after the 2009 season. any team that wants him for the next 2 years will have to be prepared to give up a package similar to what boston offered for josh beckett two years ago (hanley ramirez, anibel sanchez, and a couple of throw-ins); the cardinals would probably have to offer rasmus + anderson + mark hamilton, and even that might not be enough. if they were better positioned for a run at a championship in 2008 or 2009, i could imagine contemplating that trade, but given the team's current state it don't make no sense. no matter how many runs a cabrera+pujols-powered lineup might score (and it'd be a whole lot), they still probably wouldn't lift the team out of mediocrity this year --- not with all the other deficiencies facing the cardinals (pitching, defense, speed). and after 2009, you lose cabrera to free agency. the odds are against colby rasmus' having even one year as good as cabrera's typical season; nonetheless, rasmus is far more likely to be part of a st louis championship team between 2009 and 2014 than miggy would be in 2008 or 2009.
  • yesterday at Baseball Prospectus, john perrotto offered another angle on chris antonetti's pullout: "Cleveland assistant GM Chris Antonetti pulled his name from consideration and parlayed the Cardinals' interest into a contract extension with a sizeable raise from the Indians. . . . Those who know Antonetti insist the only two GM jobs that interest him are the Indians and Washington." in other words, antonetti was never truly serious about the cardinals; he was merely using them for leverage all along. if true, that doesn't make him a bad person; he played that one well (and exhibited the skills that make him such a great gm candidate in the first place). BP has excellent access to the cleveland front office, which employs a former BP writer (keith woolner). perrotto adds, "[R]eports that he has been promised to eventually replace GM Mark Shapiro are inaccurate."

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Antonetti
If that is true, it doesn't make him a bad person.  I also doesn't mean that I have to like him for leading us on.  In fact if it is true I hope he has bad luck for the rest of his career...

by BigJawnMize on Nov 5, 2007 8:51 AM EST reply actions  

BJM, I know how you feel
and that was my gut reaction, too, but I think it underscores what most of us have felt all along, and that is that nobody who would have been any good would have wanted this job under the circumstances (i.e., the inherited front office situation)...unless you brought in a retread like Purpura or DePosesta, the only guy who could have taken this job was hired for the job, IMO.

by tbell61 on Nov 5, 2007 9:12 AM EST up reply actions  

True but...
All executive jobs have warts.  (Lets list one for example--I don't know, maybe, hmmm, Washington's GM???)  I think that CA should have taken the job if the number of years were long enough that he could have shaped the front office in his image.  Mozeliak is a good choice for this team at this moment.  Heck, I could run this team for the year--there isn't a whole lot any GM could do.

by BigJawnMize on Nov 5, 2007 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

So presumably there's going to be
a SB Blog spot opening up in the near future.  Whoever voted Kouzmanoff first shouldn't continue to write about baseball. . .

If the Cardinals had been as good defensively in 2007 as they were in 2006 this past year, it would have translated to about 40 extra outs or around 3 extra wins.  (sigh). . .i miss good defense.

by azruavatar on Nov 5, 2007 9:01 AM EST reply actions  

yeah
that made me do a "what tha!?" too.

I voted

braun, tulo, pence. but now that all the defensive metrics are out, i'm thinking i goofed.

by erik on Nov 5, 2007 10:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Miggy
Would be an interesting player to trade for, however the Cards just don't have what it would take to make that deal without trying to move players like Izzy,  Franklin and Rolen first to build up enough prospects.

Besides, with Cabrera likely hitting free agency after 2009 (unless a team like Boston, the Angels, or the Yanks trade for him and lock him up) financial discipline by the Cards in 2008 and 2009 could well pay off in available dollars to make a play for Miguel.

by JMedwick on Nov 5, 2007 9:18 AM EST reply actions  

a little horn tooting.....
below is the text of my comment from the night Mo was named GM in the midst of all the "histrionics" about why Antonetti dissed the cards.  BTW, I am also not sure the cards A) considered him their top choice, or B) thought he was a realistic candidate to leave CLE for STL.  But for what it was worth, he played it beautifully.

=============
visits to houses and schools....

i suspect that Antonetti had a good idea of what was going on in the cards house and it was not an ideal situation for him, and the visit to schools and houses with the wife was B) a backup plan in case he decided to take the job, and A) leverage for the Indians to step up to the plate fearing they might really lose him (and making them pay).  

Kudos to Antonetti, I wish we had someone that shrewd working for us.

by HoosierCardFan on Nov 5, 2007 9:21 AM EST reply actions  

Do we?
Is Mo maybe that shrewd?  He interviewed for other jobs, including ones that would have been a step down organizational wise, could that not have been the same type of play?

by StLHugo on Nov 5, 2007 9:29 AM EST up reply actions  

i voted for braun
i knew he was a bad fielder, but i had no idea he was so horrid. i knew tulo was a good fielder, but had no idea he was the best SS in the NL. if i could do it over again, i think i would change my vote. i was blinded by braun's pujolsian-like rookie numbers, i guess. in the end, it wasn't a bad thing to vote for braun. but tulo certainly is the most "complete" player.

by erik on Nov 5, 2007 9:59 AM EST reply actions  

Cabrera
He's great -- one of the best in the majors. A lot of people denigrate him for being fat or being "like Manny Ramirez." I guess being one of the best hitters of the last 20 years is a bad thing. But I wouldn't trade Rasmus straight up for Cabrera right now, much less include Anderson and anyone else. You're right that Rasmus is more likely to be part of a championship from '09-'14 than Cabrera would be in the next 2 years.

by chuckb on Nov 5, 2007 10:07 AM EST reply actions  

Miggy
If the Cards wanted him they could get him. The Marlins have immediate needs and I not sure our prospects get the deal down.

 If Mo called Mike Hill and offer Rasmus, Anderson, and Hamilton he hear's 'I get back to you.' However if he offers Molina, Ankiel, and Reyes the conversation keeps on going. That is what it will take to get Miggy.

 Now is he worth it? I would have to talk to Cabrera first. He must committ to getting  and staying in shape, working on his defense in left field, and signing a long term back loaded deal. Maybe something like 6y 110m.

year      $ in millions

'08       10
'09       10
'10       15
'11       20
'12       25
'13       25

 Pujols' 16m option in 2011 would have to be declined when the time comes so he can be extended on a 4yr 100m deal. Keeping Pujols' and Cabrera's pay checks in line.

 I think this is what it will take. I also think it can be done, BUT SHOULD IT?

by nybirdfan on Nov 5, 2007 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

He doesn't have to commit to anything
He's a natural hitter with power.  He can gain weight, play the field poorly, run slowly, take September off, whatever.

by sdrone on Nov 5, 2007 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Umm
Rasmus, Anderson, Hamilton > Ankiel, Molina, Reyes

That's my opinion from a talent perspective but it's arguable.  What isn't is that the reason the Marlins would move Cabrera (which I don't believe they will) would because he's entering arbitration -- if they dump him they'll want pre-arb players or prospects close to the majors not another three players headed to arb.

by azruavatar on Nov 5, 2007 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I understand your point
But the three players I mentioned are in the field for the Marlins next season. Rasmus, Anderson, and Hamilton all need more development, and the Marlins need help now.

by nybirdfan on Nov 5, 2007 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I forgot
Molina, Reyes, and Ankiel are still half what they will pay for Cabrera.

by nybirdfan on Nov 5, 2007 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

But Molina is just 3 years
from free agency.  Ankiel's just 2-3 years from free agency.  Ankiel's unproven.  Molina's a below-average hitter.  Reyes is a huge question mark.  So the Marlins would get a solid defensive C w/ limited offense, an OF who has less than 200 PA's as an OF in the majors and, still, is just 3 years from free agency, and a pitcher who has regressed over the last 2 years to the point where his trade value has hit its nadir.

There's no way I'd take Molina, Reyes, and Ankiel over Rasmus, Anderson, and whoever.  IMO, it's not close.  Rasmus and Anderson could be on the field next year if you wanted.  When the Marlins trade Cabrera, it will be for the best package of players, not young players who can be on the field the fastest.

BTW, if they would take that package, I'd do it in a heartbeat -- Before they get a chance to change their minds.

by chuckb on Nov 5, 2007 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Houston
That was wonderful. I actually learned something from that.

 Guayzimmi see how it is done. Houston put me right with solid comments. and I didn't get snippy.

by nybirdfan on Nov 5, 2007 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok...
I apologize and stand suitably chastised for the impertinent snippy comment. I will now review and memorize all of HC's comments for the past six months in an effort to become a more responsible poster...
Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Nov 5, 2007 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

That's just silly...
Molina, Ankiel, and Reyes could very well be totally worthless in a year relative to their salaries.

Cabrera will bring a Phil Hughes-type prospect, plus more... not a mediocre, arb-eligible catcher and couple of washed out prospects.

Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Nov 5, 2007 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

oh
I see Molina is so so and has no upside, and Ankiel can't play CF and hit HR's and Reyes just plain sucks.

by nybirdfan on Nov 5, 2007 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

You don't have to get snippy...
I just don't think the Marlins prefer no-hit, arb eligible catchers and busted prospects to Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy.
Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Nov 5, 2007 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

when you call someone's idea "silly"
especially when they go to a lot of trouble of making a good point, it's really not fair to then get upset when they get "snippy" ;)
'I'd much rather be "happy" than "right", any day.' -- slartibartfast

by SleepyCA on Nov 5, 2007 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Well...
come on. Cabrera for Molina, Reyes, and Ankiel? What is the appropriate adjective for that?
Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Nov 5, 2007 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

sorry,
but the "That's just silly" comment I must have taken the wrong way.

by nybirdfan on Nov 5, 2007 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmmm...
I think SCA was talking to Q-zimi!
Improve the Cardinals team spirit, integrity and positive public image...sign Bonds for 08'!

by cardschinmusic on Nov 5, 2007 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Porcello
Gee, if we had just drafted him we might be able to pull off a package for Cabrerra. Pete Kozma, anyone, Kozma and an order of hot wings???/
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Nov 5, 2007 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

not really
No, that wouldn't happen.

Teams can't trade draftees until a year after they sign.

by birdo on Nov 5, 2007 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

SB Nation predictive?
For those who have been around longer than I at VEB - how well does the SB Nation voting predict the MLB voting?  It would be a shame to see Tulo not win ROY.

by cdb on Nov 5, 2007 10:20 AM EST reply actions  

Washington?
Why does he want the Nationals job?  Is he from DC?  

by raisin @ Viva El Birdos on Nov 5, 2007 10:56 AM EST reply actions  

Personally,
I would have pick Tulo.  Because, as Larry stated, he is more of a complete player.  It is hard to ignore Braun's offensive numbers, but his glove is bad, very bad.  Besides, Troy turned an unassisted triple play on April 29, that got my attention real early in the season.  

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 5, 2007 11:05 AM EST reply actions  

True, Braun has a weak glove,
but ROY's aren't awarded on defense. You only have to look no further than our own Albert Pujols for verification of that fact.
And, with all due respect to Larry, my vote would have gone to Braun. If he had played a full season, as Tulowitzki did, there's no telling what kind of numbers he would've put up. He and Prince are the present-day version of the Bash Brothers, IMO.

by cardsrul on Nov 5, 2007 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

true
Braun may have hit like 2007 Scott Rolen if he played all year.....

by cdb on Nov 5, 2007 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Not possible
Braun still had more plate appearances than Rolen did, even at a partial season.

by RedbirdRay on Nov 5, 2007 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

True
He might have been a 50-50 guy. 50 homers and 50 errors.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Nov 5, 2007 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Tulo couldn't possibly...
be so much better with the glove that it erases Braun's advantage with the stick. We're talking 153 ops+ to 108...
Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Nov 5, 2007 11:46 AM EST reply actions  

Actually
I actually beleive it is, Braun is that bad and Tulo is that good defensively.  I don't have an issue either way but I think Tulo had the better season.

by StLHugo on Nov 5, 2007 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Ryan Braun was ranked the WORST infielder
in EITHER league.  His RZR was .562.

Think about that for a second.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 5, 2007 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

How can we figure
how many runs Braun COST the team in the field?  Does WS or VORP take that into account?

by silent_bob on Nov 5, 2007 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

win shares does, VORP doesn't
john dewan's +/- defensive rankings were released yesterday, and per them braun cost his team about 30 runs in the field. he had the worst defensive score of any fielder at any position in the majors. tulowitzki had the second-best score of any player in the majors and saved his team about 24 runs.

the two enhanced zone rating systems (by david gassko and chris dial) yielded similar results. UZR yielded a slightly smaller gap, placing the two players about 30 runs apart defensively.

it's not often that two contenders for the same award are gonna be that far apart defensively ---- but it is the case this year.

by lboros on Nov 5, 2007 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

WOW
I said his glove was "bad, very bad", but those rankings show that his glove is STUNNINGLY bad. Ouch!

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 5, 2007 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Sold me - I vote for Troy.
the average of the ratings gives Tulo a +42 runs defensively.  IMO, that makes up for the disparage in OPS+ (154 to 108).

by silent_bob on Nov 5, 2007 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeahbut...
how many runs is a Pujols-like year with the stick worth vis-a-vis a Ludwick-like season? Gotta be at least 42.

Granted Braun had 190 fewer plate appearances...

Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Nov 5, 2007 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

braun was worth about 20 runs more than tulo
on offense, according to VORP; similar differential via win shares.

that doesn't account for the difference in playing time. but the award's not for what a guy would have done in a full season; it's about what they did do. once you apply the glove deficit to braun, he's equal to tulowitzki at best.

close call, and you can argue it either way. they're both great players. i'll take the one with the broader base of skills.

by lboros on Nov 5, 2007 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Crude math
how bout this offensive breakdown?
Runs/162 games:  Braun 131  Tulo 109
RBI /162 games:  Braun 139  Tulo 104

Total Runs+RBI:  Braun 262  Tulo 213

Difference:  49 runs.

So it looks 50/50 to me...

by silent_bob on Nov 5, 2007 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

BP also figures FRAA
"Fielding Runs Above Average." Some aren't crazy about the way in which BP figures their defensive #'s, but according to BP Tulowitzki was 25 runs above average and Braun was 27 runs below average -- a difference of 52 runs or more than 5 wins. As I said, some would rather use other numbers to figure defensive abilities, but FRAA does indicate a huge difference in the two players' defense.

by chuckb on Nov 5, 2007 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Also
The defensive numbers are position relevant so Tulowitzki gets even another extra bump.
Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Nov 5, 2007 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Braun
I wonder if Braun will move to LF?  I know Geoff Jenkins will not be resigned by the Brew Crew.

If I were the Brewers I would have Braun in winter ball learing to play LF.  

He should be a good enough athlete that a bunch of reps out there should help him transition.

His stick is just sick!  That guy was absolutely amazing last year.

It must be remembered as well that Tulo came up in 06 and palyed in 25 games, so he kind of got a head start on Braun.  Tulo has played 67 more games than Braun.  That is about 270 more plate appearances.  The funny thing his Braun has more HR, and is not very far behind in all other offensive categoires.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 5, 2007 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

They should move him to LF or RF
but, from what I'm reading, they won't. They're looking for an OF when they should be trying to add a 3B. Their defense probably cost them the division this year.

by chuckb on Nov 5, 2007 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Think you are right.
The Brew Crew's D (and bullpen) hurt them in a big way and allowed the Cubbies to usurp first place in the division.  

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 5, 2007 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I think
I read that they were pretty high on Braun's potential as a 3rd baseman...they said he had good instincts and was a good athlete, but his technique was his problem.  Sounds like crazy talk to me.  Its like saying your car is actually ok, even though the engine isn't exactly working and the transmission, well, we're not so sure where it actually went...

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 5, 2007 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

No no no no no,
Hardcore..You got it wrong..AAron miles is the worst fielder in either league. Don't you read this blog?

by ridgesee on Nov 5, 2007 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

great timing!!!!!
You just have great timing!!!  

Somehow the blog will become about Aaron Miles for some reason.  He is the least of the problems.  For some reason he takes all the heat as well.  May I say Adam Kennedy has taken very little abuse and he was way worse than Miles.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 5, 2007 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

You are right, ICBirdfan, I said
that as a joke. Miles has taken a beating and I defended him yesterday because it had become to much. If Adam Kennedy had been worth a shit, then Miles could have done his little utility bit two or three time a week, which he is good at, and  everybody would said what a valuable little guy he is to have around. But no, he has taken all the flack because Kennedy and Eck have performed so poorly.

by ridgesee on Nov 5, 2007 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Tulo & Braun
I think both are very deserving!!  It is hard to go wrong with either one.

If you want to go on pure upside, Chris Young may be the best of the group.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 5, 2007 12:04 PM EST reply actions  

Is this new?
Not sure if this has been brought up yet or not.  It's believed Rolen would be open to waiving his no trade.  We'd probbly have to eat 1/4 to 1/2 the salary to make anything work, but if the prospects were decent I'd let him go.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/938F7737F5C8520B862573890006269A ?OpenDocument

"Baseball is the only field of endeavor where a man can succeed three times out of ten and be considered a good performer." - Ted Williams

by WiscCard on Nov 5, 2007 12:39 PM EST reply actions  

Rolen has negative trade value
now.  It would be a mistake to deal him.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 5, 2007 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

By the way
Rafael Perez is listed in the AL chart twice...

by mojowo11 on Nov 5, 2007 1:08 PM EST reply actions  

But
with different vote totals.  I wondered about that, too.

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 5, 2007 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Why would people NOT trade Rasmus + for Cabrera?
These posts make me laugh.

Does Rasmus have potential? Yes. But Cabrera is a legitimate all star caliber (and extremely YOUNG) player. He is arguably the best hitter in baseball behind Pujols and ManRam. Assuming he gets his weight under control, he'd be an incredible asset to any team.

It's not like we'd be trading prospects for some 33 year old with only a couple good seasons left in him, you are trading them for a guy in his early 20's who has already proven to be one of the best players in the league. Count me as one who'd gladly give up Rasmus , Anderson , and whoever else to get him on this team.

That being said, we can't match the packages that teams like the Yankees could offer, so I don't see  us being able to trade for him.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Nov 5, 2007 1:54 PM EST reply actions  

Hmmm
So you'd be content with Cabrera for only two seasons if we couldn' re-sign him?  Even if we gave up Rasmus?

by saladdays on Nov 5, 2007 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe we'd resign him...
In 2 years we'll have a few of our bigger contracts coming off the books and will have plenty of money to keep him here. Not to mention, bringing in Cabrera would make The Mang happy.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Nov 5, 2007 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe both he and Pujols have
made comments about wanting to lay together.  But yes, it is probably quite unlikely.

by Valatan on Nov 5, 2007 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey now...
that's a totally unfounded and salacious rumor... Take that elsewhere.
Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Nov 5, 2007 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

No, it's a fact
they were quoted in an SI interview last summer saying as such.
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Nov 5, 2007 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

That they wanted to lay together?
How does Deidra feel about this?
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 5, 2007 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you missed the point there
the SI article said they wanted to PLAY together

by tdawg on Nov 5, 2007 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

God damn
SIUE education. Reading comprehension, schmomprehension.
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Nov 5, 2007 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

This whole exchange
made me laugh so hard that I teared up.  (And someone in the next room wanted to know what was so funny.)

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 5, 2007 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

It was a joke
And I must say, while I usually object to the grammar police...the results of their action this time was quite hilarious.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Nov 5, 2007 5:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I say
if it makes pujols happy to get laid, I say get him here and get Pujols laid

by ridgesee on Nov 5, 2007 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Why can't we resign him?
Is our money not as good as anyone elses?  We'll have $30 M to spend next off-season and the only major contract comittments we have beyond 2009 are:

Rolen:     $12 M (2010)
Pujols:    $16 M (2010-2011)
Carpenter: $14.5, $15 M (2010-2012)
Franklin:  $2.75 (2010)

Plus whatever we pay Wainwright and Molina.

I would hope that we could throw $22 M at Pujols and Cabrera both to re-up them both through 2016.  Pujols would be 36 years old and Miguel would be 33.

Cabrera has conditioning problems, leading to his weight gain.  Remember how we used to have a pudgy superstar hitter who trimmed down and turned into a monster?

The Cardinals have just as much chance to resign Cabrera as anybody else.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 5, 2007 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe Pujols...
would be a positive influence on Cabrera's eating habits / conditioning. Pujols is well known for his conditioning , and I think he'd take Cabrera under his wing and get him back into better shape.
Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Nov 5, 2007 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't mean we couldn't re-sign him
It's just that the trade isn't worth it IF he's gone after 2009.  If we have a good shot of doing it, then that changes things.  I understand that there is no way to know for sure at this point if he would re-sign, but is the chance worth it?

by saladdays on Nov 5, 2007 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

It's two years of proven commodity...
but it's highly likely at least one of the three or four prospects that go to Florida will provide multiple seasons of all-star caliber play at a low cost.

After 2009 it's going to take 10-12 years at $25-$30 million per to sign Cabrera, which is pretty risky for a guy who is alleged to have weight and attitude problems.

Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Nov 5, 2007 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Risk
Here is the only risk in the trade.

1. Miguel only stays in STL 2 years.

Manny was once a chubby guy as well and all of a sudden he dropeed about 30 pounds and has been slim the past 3 years.

Miguel Cabrera is only 24 years old, which is 4 years older than Rasmus which is not much.  Also Miguel has played 5 MLB seasons and 4 of them he put up all start caliber numbers.  I think there is no doubt barring injury Miguel is going to produce exactly like Manny and Albert have.  So the only question is will Colby Rasmus be just as good.  I find it hard to say Rasmus will be better than.

.313 AVG/.388 OBP/.542 SLG/.938 OPS  

by ICbirdfan on Nov 5, 2007 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you just say
Manny was SLIM?

Dang, man.

by sdrone on Nov 5, 2007 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Money in the bank or do you want to gamble?
Is Rasmus more of a risk to payoff or is Cabrera? I don't know. I think Rasmus will be all-star quality but will he be Cabrerra all star like or Aaron Rowand all star like. I would trade Rowand for Cabrerra anyday. Not saying Rasmus will turn into Rowand but what is the worst he could be?
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 5, 2007 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess the better question is
would you trade Rowand + ~$50M (ooa pre-arb value) for Cabrera?

There are times when that makes sense, and times when it doesn't...

by SleepyCA on Nov 5, 2007 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Quayzimi,
you have it figured out just right. I don't think anything else needs to be added.

by ridgesee on Nov 5, 2007 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

abstl, i disagree w/ you on both counts
rasmus is a top-10 prospect in all of baseball, and anderson is probably top 50; very few teams could match that trade package, including the yankees.

i also don't share your confidene that we'd be able to keep cabrera here beyond 2 years. he's going to command a contract package of $150m or higher; if the cards signed cabrera to one of those after the 2009 season, they'd have to let albert go after 2011. because albert's going to get a-rod money. no way this market can support 2 contracts of that magnitude. indeed, unless i'm mistaken no team in any market --- not even new york or chicago or l.a. --- has ever carried two contracts simultaneously of more than $125m or so.

you'd basically be trading 12 to 18 seasons of low-priced above-average talent for 2 years of high-priced superstar talent. not a trade i would make.

by lboros on Nov 5, 2007 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

The Yankees of course
had Jeter (189 Mil), A Rod (250 Mil) and Giambi (120 Mil) this year and the last few.

But I'm picking up what you're putting down.

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Nov 5, 2007 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

ok, i reached
but not by much. point being (and i know you get it) the cards aren't the yankees . . . .

by lboros on Nov 5, 2007 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

plus the yanks weren't on the hook
for a-rod's full $250m. they took on $18m x 7 years, or $126m. . . .

by lboros on Nov 5, 2007 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

The Yankees got ARod...
in 2004 for what was basically a seven year, $112 million deal, thanks to the Rangers picking up a bunch of the tab.
Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Nov 5, 2007 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

This according to Cot...
Who needs Antonetti? Give Luhniak a chance!

by guayzimi on Nov 5, 2007 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice
It is a nice thought but there are too many variables that make it a bad risk.  

If.....

  1. Miggy says I will stay in STL more than 3 yrs.
  2. Dewit says I will pay Albert & Miggy 100+ mill
If #1 and #2 were a given today and everyone agreed you would have to be stupid not to make the trade.

But #1 & #2 are too up in the air.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 5, 2007 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

and i'd modify your number 2
to: "dewitt says I will pay albert and miggy $200+ mill."

if alfonso soriano is worth $136 million at age 31, then cabrera at 27 will be worth at least $200m, maybe more. and pujols at 31 will be worth $250m.

by lboros on Nov 5, 2007 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

10 years
Alex Rodriguez got 10 year, Derek Jeter got 10 years.

31 year old Albert Pujols won't get 10 years.  He'll probably get another 7 year contract.  Even if he got $27 M, his contract would be $189 M.  

Pujols won't be making $30 M+ annually.  ARod won't be making that either.  No team is going to pay ARod that much and he is in prime physical condition.  Pujols has a new leg injury every season (to go with a bad back and an elbow that is about to explode).

Miggy might get a 10 year deal, based on age.  He'd probably command 25 M annually.  I agree with that.

However, 5 years from now, do you think the Cardinals payroll will still be hovering around the $100 M mark?  I don't.  Combined, Miguel and Pujols would be making $55 M of a $150 M payroll (or 36%).  Pujols and Rolen next year will make up 30% of the team's opening day payroll.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 5, 2007 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Wanna bet?
A-Rod is stone cold guaranteed to get more than 30 mil.  No chance it's less.  He didn't even go to the negotiating table when the Yanks offered 30 mil a year in the extension.
Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Nov 5, 2007 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

He asked for $35 M a year
and they told him to take his brand of crazy and try to sell it somewhere else, they were all full-up.

Who is going to give him $30 M+?  Boras pissed of the New York Yankees, who are a necessity for most bidding wars.  Despite Theo Epstein's best efforts to needlessly spend more money, it looks like the Red Sox are going to stick with Mike Lowell.  The Cubs can't take on that kind of comittment right now as the sale of the club has hit some snags with the FCC (tribune media).

Who is going to offer Alex Rodriguez that much money?  The Giants? The Dodgers?  The Angels?  I just don't see it.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 5, 2007 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

i didn't say pujols would get 10 years
i said he'd get $250m. it might be 8 years at $30m. but if soriano could get 8 years / $136m in 2006 at age 31, then pujols at the same age, w/ 5 more years of inflation, might be worth 8 years / $250m. or maybe it's only 8 / $225, or 8 / $215; the point is, too rich for the cards if they've already dropped $180m on miggy c.

by lboros on Nov 5, 2007 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Manny Ramirez
in 2001 at the age of 29 got 8 years/$186 M. (23.25 M)

Carlos Beltran at the age of 27 in 2005 got 7 years/$119 M. (17 M)

Derek Jeter at the age of 27 in 2001 got 10 years/$189 M. (18.9 M).

Alfonso Soriano at the age of 31 in 2007 got 8 years/$136 M. (17 M)

I'm just not understand why you think Pujols' annual pay is going to more than double from his previous top dollar contract?  Inflation is obviously a big factor but that's a hell of a lot of inflation.

Maybe Pujols does get double what he already makes and gets $30 M/8 years each.  He'd make up 20% of the Cardinals payroll (which if we are counting that much inflation, it's gotta go up to $150 M).  Even if Miggy gets 8 years and the $180 M you suggest, they still make up only 35% of the Cardinals payroll.

When people look back at Manny's deal and Beltran's deal, they looked to be burdensome and outlandish but if I told you I could get you Manny Ramirez and Carlos Beltran to play the OF next year for $38.5 M combined, you'd jump at it, wouldn't you?

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 5, 2007 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

just look at the top guy on your list
manny is the one who comes closest to approximating apu's value as a hitter. he got 23.5m per year in 2001. by 2011, when apu re-signs --- 10 years after manram --- you don't think inflation would drive that price up to 30m?

i can't think of a single example of a team carrying two obligations over $150m simultaneously. you may think the cards can do that, but unless i'm mistaken there's no precedent for it in a market of any size --- and certainly not in a market of stl's size.

by lboros on Nov 5, 2007 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

But based on your inflation
Manny Ramirez was being paid .78 on the 2011 dollar.

And the point is not to pay Albert Pujols in 2012 the $30 M and then for the following 7 years.  You save money by spending money.  Resign him in 2010.  Buyout those final 2 years that are worth $16 M each.  Give him $24 M (an $8 M increase for each of those years) and then pay him $30 M for the next 5 years.

The deal works out to be $198 M for 7 years and shave 2 'decline' years off the contract.

Just like if you get Miguel Cabrera, you buy out his 2009 season.  He makes $8 M next year.  You give him a contract that gives him $15 M for 2009, $23 M for 2010 and structure from there.

Use instant reward as a bargaining tool.

I still think the Cardinals could carry both of the two best RH hitters for the next 7 years payroll wise.  And if contracts are going to sky rocket as much as you indicate, then some team will be willing to take on Cabrera's modest $27 M in 2015 to be a DH in the AL.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 5, 2007 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

still looking for the precedent
if neither the yankees or red sox (nor dodgers, angels, or cubs) have ever carried two contracts of that size simultaneously . . . . what makes you think the cards can?

everything you've tossed out is theoretical. but there's no real-world evidence to support or contradict the theory. nobody has ever been crazy enough to hand out two contracts like this at 1 time.

something tells me the dewitt-owned cards are not gonna be the first team to test those waters . . .

by lboros on Nov 5, 2007 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

In reality
if they don't take my 'buyout' plan, one gets paid in 2010, the other in 2012.  It's not at the same time.

I'm headed out but I'd have to believe that the Mets are carrying two blockbuster contracts of 6+ years at some point.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 5, 2007 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

In quibbling over the
length of the 2 contracts and the exact $ total of the two contracts, the point remains that Cabrera and Pujols, combined, would earn at least $45 M -- that's for just 2 players.  Then the Cards would have to put together a contending lineup and pitching staff with the other $85 or so -- and that's w/ owing Carp $16+ M.  And that's even if you could guarantee that the Cards would be the highest bidder for Cabrera, which no one can do.  This isn't financially palatable for the Cards and makes no sense -- to give up a guaranteed 6 years of Rasmus + whatever else, for 2 years of Cabrera and the possibility of paying him near $25M per year.

The reality is that, by trading Rasmus for Cabrera, the Cards would also have to choose Cabrera over Pujols -- a big mistake, in my view.  Rasmus + Pujols for Cabrera?  No way!

by chuckb on Nov 5, 2007 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I was thinking about this tonight
and what exactly is this 'ARod' money?

ARod was signed by Texas in 2001 for $25.2 M annually.

Since then, who has gotten 'ARod' money?  

Vladimir Guerrero in 2004 got 5 years/$70 M ($14 M)
Albert Pujols in 2004 got 7 years/$100 M ($14.3 M)
Manny Ramirez in 2001 got 8 years/$168 M ($21 M)
Alfonso Soriano in 2007 got 8 years/$136 M ($17 M).

So even if ARod sets the bar at $30 M per, the liklihood that guys like Cabrera and Pujols make that $30 M total is unlikely.

ARod's average was $25.2 M each year of the original deal.  I can't think of anyone besides Manny that even got 5+ years at over $20 M.  That's only 4/5ths the contract size.

I think we are vastly overstating the size of the contracts Cabrera and Pujols might get.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 6, 2007 1:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Not if the
Farm system is producing cheap talent.

If you can outfit a lineup with young cheap players like Rasmus, then the Cards can afford both Miggy and Albert.

by JMedwick on Nov 5, 2007 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

And definitly not
the Toledo Mud Hens.
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Nov 5, 2007 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Boras
Scott Boras would not turn down the Yanks extension (5/150) offer if he didn't have a better deal in hand or at the very least have a very good idea of such.  He knows these things much better than you or me so I'm putting my trust in him just on that fact.  

This reminds me of people sying last year "JD Drew left 33 million dollars on the table????  He's never going to be able to get that much".

Who thought Texas was going to schill out 252 mil??

Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Nov 5, 2007 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I did read on Netscape home page
(it was an excerpt from ESPN) that Scott Boras sent a letter to the Yankees saying that there was no need to initiate any talks about Arod unless they wanted to talk about 350 million. Now that might be just to insult the Yankees for some unknown reason, but it could also be to send a message to all other intrested clubs that A-rod is going to command record figures. Where the hell is going to stop. It is depressing to me to even talk about players like Cabrera. Most clubs are going to be forced to raise their talent and I say the Cards should get started pronto.

by ridgesee on Nov 5, 2007 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm curious as to what teams you think
even have the ability to stone cold guarantee him $30m/year.  It takes more than 1 team to create competition.......

by sdrone on Nov 5, 2007 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think Arod wants to play in NY for any
amount of money. I think Boras is just pulling an Antonetti.
The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 5, 2007 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Good points hardcore
The other important factors:
  1. I don't think the Cards will make such a trade until the farm system is deeper.
  2. Miggy's contract will likely include an opt-out clause.
  3. If the Cards are really prepared to drop 150 to 200 million on Cabrera, then they needn't trade for him now because they will be competitive when he is a free agent after 2009.
With all of this in mind, the best possible way to add a player like Cabrera is a follows:
  1. Keep Colby and the rest of the Cards top prospects.
  2. Let Rolen play our 2008 and 2009 and see if he gets healthy. If healthy, trade him away after 2009 for prospects.
  3. Depending on the development of Anderson, trading away Molina for prospects.
  4. Sign Cabrera in 2009 and fill out the rest of the starting 9 with young cheap talent, because that is the only way in the first 2 or 3 years of the deal the Cards could carry both Albert and Cabrera.
On a side note, if a deal like Reyes, Anderson, Ankiel, and Chris Perez could really get it done, I would make that deal because I view Anderson as more of a trade chip than the long term answer at C.

by JMedwick on Nov 5, 2007 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Plus, we can't trade Rasmus for Cabrera
I already traded him to San Fransisco for Tim Lincecum.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 5, 2007 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know
I just sometimes wake up in a cold sweat fearing he is the next Lasting Milledge.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 6, 2007 1:48 AM EST up reply actions  

It's a shame
that so many people seem to have such low expectations for Anderson.  I'm not sure where that comes from.  If it's b/c they like Yadi and respect his defensive ability, I guess I can kind of understand that.  But Anderson is highly thought of outside the organization -- Kevin Goldstein of BP rated him the #2 catching prospect in baseball, for example.  Others at BA and BP say the same.  

Some feel his only hope of becoming a major-leaguer is to switch positions -- that's dubious at best.  In fact, his bat probably won't play well at 3b or LF.  But it does play well at C.  He's likely a better hitter than Molina already.  He'll, of course, never be the defender Molina is but so what?  Molina's not irreplaceable.  I can appreciate a healthy respect for what Molina offers defensively, but I'm mystified by the fact that so few think that Anderson can be a major-league C, even for the Cards.

The bottom line is that, probably in 2009 if not before, the Cards will have the opportunity to choose from a relatively expensive, excellent defensive C, or a relatively cheap, excellent offensive C.  Why we assume that Molina is automatically the better option is mystifying to me.

by chuckb on Nov 5, 2007 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Untouchable
The organization has stated on many occasions that only Pujols and Molina are untouchable. This is why most people think Anderson will bring us more in a trade than what the Cards have planned for him. They have so few trade pieces that he and Duncan are usually the first ones thought of to go elsewhere.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Nov 6, 2007 9:07 AM EST up reply actions  

agree
I agree with you lb, I beleive that if all goes well Rasmus will produce like Edmonds did for years to come.  I would not trade Edmonds in his prime for Miggy straight up, and if you include a possible Brian McCann as well it makes even less sense.  While Miggy is great I just don't see him having that much greater of an impact.  Also if we had him in 08 with our pitching woes it is almost like a wasted year, 09 we get Rasmus and hopefully better pitching as well.  Meh just not worth it.

by StLHugo on Nov 5, 2007 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Miguel Cabrera's prime > Edmonds prime
Miguel Cabrera hasn't even hit his prime as a hitter yet, unless they've lied about his age.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 5, 2007 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

same page
We are on the same page!!!  Miguel is 4 years from his prime.  He is so much better than Edmonds offensively it is not even funny.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 5, 2007 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but he doesn't play CF...
These days good hitting 3b are not all that rare, while good hitting CFers are.

It would be better to have a league average 3b and Rasmus, than Cabrera and a league average CF.

by DiscoJer on Nov 5, 2007 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Well
I think we all agree that with our system being weak and the possiblity of Miguel not staying more than two years the trade is a bad one at this point.

However I would trade Miguel at this point for Jimmy at his prime any day of the week.  Miguel is about 4 years away from hitting his prime.  Jim Edmonds will never produce like Miguel baring some major injury to Miguel.  Miguel Cabrera is very good and he is errily similar to Manny Ramirez.  A guy who is kind of misunderstood at times.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 5, 2007 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes
and it takes 5 tool players to win championships, which Cabrera is not and Rasmus could possibly be. The money you have to sink into Cabrera will keep you from obtaining or developing the players you really need. The Cabreras and the Ramirizs of the world can put on a good show and pull of some wins but the name of the game is pitching and as bad as the pitching for the Cards is right now, any GM worth his salt will be concentrating on that and not daydreaming of one dimenisonal sluggers. If you examine how the Red Sox finally became a winner, instead of a bridesmaid you won't find the answer in the likes of Rameriz or Ortiz. They had them. You'll find it in names like Schilling, Beckett, Papelbon, and a solid infield anchored by a good clutch veteran named Lowell. Now isn't it something that 3 years ago the marlins couldn't give Lowell away.

by ridgesee on Nov 5, 2007 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Finally became a winner?
I don't see Lowell, Papelbon or Beckett's name on the 2004 World Series Winner's roster.   Am I missing something?

There is no correlation between # of "5 tool players" and playoff contenders.

by RedbirdRay on Nov 5, 2007 10:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I could put up
a long argument redbirdray but it's just not worth the trouble so I'll just concede and congratulate on your good points. I can see you are a deep thinker.

by ridgesee on Nov 6, 2007 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

ok then
Name a five tool player on one of the last 5 World Series champions then....

That should settle that argument because there isn't one:

'07 Sox - None (Unless you count Drew, and if you do, well, I feel sorry for you)
'06 Cards - I think we can agree this is true
'05 White Sox - definitely not
'04 Red Sox - Damon is the only guy who comes close.
'03 Marlins - not a chance

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Nov 6, 2007 9:26 AM EST up reply actions  

You are right
I actually misspoke when I said it takes 5 tool players to win championships. It doesn't really because a well balanced team with speed, defense and pitching can win. a more accurate statement would have been, "you can build championship teams around 5 tool players." I was thinking a little hastily because I was upset that so many comments seem to express that Cabera is just what we needed. He is a pure slugger, that I will agree, but It is rare to see a team slug it's way to a world series must less win it. In fact I can't recall one but I'll stand corrected if you do. But I can think of a lot of teams in the last 60 years that pitched their way to the world series with no more than average power and hitting and won it all.

by ridgesee on Nov 6, 2007 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

This year in baseball
MLB.com has their fan voted "This year in baseball" awards up right now.  Today they opened voting on "moment" of the year:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/awards/y2007/tyib/index.jsp

3000th Hit for Biggio,
300th win for Glavine,
500th HR for Thome, Thomas and Arod
600th for Sosa
756 for Bonds
Holliday sliding home in game 163
Clemens announcing return (uh ok)

And the one I voted for:

Ankiel Smashing a HR in his return!

by StLHugo on Nov 5, 2007 2:26 PM EST reply actions  

Me too.
Multiple times (because that's allowed!).

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 5, 2007 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

We're getting gipped in those awards
Not that we had a great year or anything, but I thought Izzy should have been an option for closer, and Franklin for setup.  
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Nov 5, 2007 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep
Izzy was better this year then a couple on there, he just didn't have the amount of saves.  Franklin I think deserved it as well.  Pujols wasn't even on hitter of the year and Edmond's defensive play was not the most impressive Cards play this year to me (I voted for Tulo's triple play, TPs are odd enough but to do it unassisted is even more awesome)

by StLHugo on Nov 5, 2007 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Top 50 FA per MLBTradeRumors
Cards get #23, & 24:
  1. Jose Guillen - Cardinals.  Could La Russa keep Guillen in line?  He didn't cause any clubhouse problems in Seattle.  The Cards could use a right fielder with 25 HR pop, and he might be the only qualifier.
  2. Kyle Lohse - Cardinals.  I was going to put him with the Astros but then remembered Drayton McLane's strong dislike of Scott Boras.  The Cardinals are seeking one solid starter.  Lohse almost qualifies, in this market.
It's a good list.
Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 5, 2007 2:50 PM EST reply actions  

omg
I hope that never happens!  

Jeff Weaver is just a bust, he is so streaky it is not even funny.  The Cardinals were lucky he preformed well in the playoffs but I would honestly rather have Marquis than Weaver.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 5, 2007 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't go that far
to consider either.  I'm still stunned that Kip Wells 07 was even worse than Marquis 06.

But predicting Weaver back in STL is not a good call, and $15M is ludicrous anywhere.

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 5, 2007 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure he meant
$15 million over two years, not per year.  Like $7.5 mill per year or maybe a $6 mill for the first, $9 mill for the second type deal.
Cardinal fan in War Eagle land

by Mr Redbird on Nov 5, 2007 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I was sure he meant $15m/2 years total also
and I wouldn't even bring him back for $15M/10 years  (1.5 per year).  It's a waste of time in ST, and worse to post some quick defeats in April.

On the other hand, if we picked up his contract and sent him to either the Cubs or the Brewers under the requirement that they have to run him out there every five starts, that could be worth something.  I'll bet Boras could write a contract like that, and only the Cards would hold the opt out clause based upon the player to be named later.  Who do you think they would offer by August to get out of that deal?

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 5, 2007 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

My bad
I thought you meant just for any pitcher.  $15 mill per year is pretty ridiculous for 99% of MLB pitchers, so that was my assumption.  $7.5 mill per year is reasonable, and less than what several "average" starters make.

I agree, $15 mill over 2 years is too much for Jeff Weaver, but I was just pointing out that it's not too terribly overpriced considering the market

Cardinal fan in War Eagle land

by Mr Redbird on Nov 5, 2007 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Not sure how I'd feel about that one...
I think the Duncan effect is actually in play with a  head case like the Dream man.  I say this in all honesty - Duncan gets his pitchers focused on a game plan, how to attack every hitter.  Ducan is not a mechanical guru, but what he preaches does work for guys like him.  When Weaver does "keep the ball down" (ugh, i know, PTC is a taboo concept 'round here) he keeps the ball in the park.  He'll always miss some bats.  

The Cards could do worse - but a one year deal would be best.

by silent_bob on Nov 5, 2007 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Weaver
is a pretty talented pitcher who seems to not have a brain once he gets on the mound. I think Duncan being his brain is what brought him his success. I wouldn't be opposed to bringing him back and seeing how he worked with Dunc again, but $15Mill sounds ridiculous. After the year he just had, 2 yrs/11-12 million (total) should do.

If not, thanks again for '96, but pass.

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Nov 5, 2007 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Where was Weaver in 96?
Smoking pot behind the bleachers?
"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Nov 5, 2007 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

That's why Fritz
wanted him to pass.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 5, 2007 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Dont
fuck up the rotation, man.
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Nov 5, 2007 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Just Say No to Weaver at any Price
Some of us might have liked to have him back after is October surprise.  But in the spring of 08 when the Cards really needed help, Weaver was worse than horrible. Maybe he could've been better if he stayed with dunc, but his agent certainly didn't have the players best interests in mind.  But that is past, and I can't even imagine speculating this one again.

I think Rotoworld just made this prognostication up for fun.

I'll accept MLDTradeRumors' pick of Lohse as plausible.  I think lb thrashed this one a few weeks back.  Not a front line starter to get thrilled about, but certainly far more likely to work than last year's try with Kip.

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 5, 2007 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

hmm
"If not, thanks again for '96, but pass."

Was it really that long ago? ;)

by outraged on Nov 5, 2007 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I distinctly remember it
TLR came in and told Donovan Osborne that there would be an open competition for the starting rotation and although Osborne outpitched Weaver, Weaver got the job.

Osborne was miffed and has vowed never to return to St. Louis until LaRussa leaves.  He has come back from time to time for ceremonial things but refuses to be part of the organization.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 5, 2007 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

And Donovan thinks we care?
It's like he did that much for the club, unlike one Osborne Earl Smith.

by saladdays on Nov 5, 2007 5:52 PM EST up reply actions  

ugh
Should be "It's not like"

by saladdays on Nov 5, 2007 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah...
And we might have had a chance at the playoffs if player/manager Roger Connor hadn't inserted himself into the rotation 45 friggin' times and lost 37 of them.  Some 'genius'.  How the hell did that clown ever get into The Hall?

Wait...1996?

youneverknow

by meat on Nov 5, 2007 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Good?
The Cardinals already have a RF with 25 HR pop - Ankiel.

by DiscoJer on Nov 5, 2007 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Lohse
This guy sucks and has Boras as an agent. I would rathter have Weaver. I will predict the Cards get either Lieber or Clement. I think they will trade for their hitting or sign a non-tendered guy.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Nov 5, 2007 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

my dreams of A-rod
that people tell him to shove off and that huge contract and he goes unsigned for some time...I know it will never happen some idiot will pay him the 30 mil a yr..

so who will drive up the price on who..Boston? NY even though they said they will not enter it..bullcrap if boston enters it..

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Nov 5, 2007 9:19 PM EST reply actions  

Been thinking the same
Since he didn't even entertain the Yanks extension and opted out, the Yanks tell him to take a hike, Lowell wins WS-MVP, and Sox fans chant "Don't sign A-Rod."  Maybe it's the perfect storm, and he'll be sitting around during ST waiting on some fool to mortgage the franchise.

Maybe turning down the extension will end up looking as bad Nomar turning down the Sox.

We can only hope.

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Nov 5, 2007 10:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Boras Bailout
Twice in the last couple of years Boras has gone to the wire with his big free agents, a few years ago with Ivan Rodriguez and last year with JD Drew.  Both times, teams stepped in at the 11th hour and bailed him out.  In IR's case I believe it was the 2nd last week of spring training.

Wouldn't it be fun to see Boras misread this market and have the best player in baseball, his client, see the season start with him not having a job.  Because I agree, the only team in baseball that could really afford $35MM/year is the Yankees.

So what would ARod do?  Play in an independent league in North Dakota?  Go play in Japan?

Probably won't happen as some idiot GM will bail him out again, but it sure is fun to think about.

by Anteus on Nov 6, 2007 12:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Hopefully no bailout
  I would LOVE to see him sitting out games waiting for the mega-contract with Boras falling flat on his face.  I think it would be very good for baseball.
  That said, the other advantage of that is the price would come down and become reasonable.  He could probably still play a decent SS and could take over for Rolen if he's hurt again.

by Recon on Nov 6, 2007 8:37 AM EST up reply actions  

save the drama for your mamma
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

schilling and sox close to deal...

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Nov 5, 2007 11:45 PM EST reply actions  

Braun should be ROY
I can't believe we're even discussing it.  He slugged 150 points more than Tulo.  He's got about 100 points on Pence.  This isn't even close.  Braun put up MVP numbers!  Come on.  He's not just the ROY.  He's close to the rookie of the decade (he's second to Pujols).  I don't care if he has stonehands.  The guy can rake.  And no amount of slick defense makes up 150 points.  D.GOOCH    

by GOOCH24 on Nov 6, 2007 12:27 AM EST reply actions  

That's the thing
Braun's glove IS that bad.
Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Nov 6, 2007 8:17 AM EST up reply actions  

DH
If this was the AL and he was a DH I would throw out defense right away.  The problem is this isn't the AL.  This is the NL ROY award and as such you HAVE to consider defense.  If Braun was just so-so with the glove and so-so range wise then he would be a sure fire winner.  He is just THAT bad, he doesn't get to many balls which keeps his error count lower then it should be even, he just can't field well at all.  Hopefully that is what they work on with him in ST but as a rookie he is still too raw defensively while Tulo is the whole package.  I guess what it comes down to is which would you rather have on this team?  I think Tulo would be the better option unless Braun could move to LF, I just don't want that horrible of a defender behind my pitchers.

by StLHugo on Nov 6, 2007 8:26 AM EST up reply actions  

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