the man that got away

by lboros on Nov 1, 2007 9:11 AM EDT in News Comment 151 comments

lost in all of yesterday's histrionics over the gm hire is this fact: the cardinals aggressively pursued the guy everybody wanted. whether or not they formally offered antonetti the job (i know, the club denies it. . . . ), it was his for the taking --- and he was prepared to accept until cleveland came in and, in essence, matched the offer. per the report cited by holden in yesterday's thread:

It appeared Antonetti was leaning toward moving to St. Louis until Indians owner Paul Dolan stepped up, defined the succession process under which Mark Shapiro will eventually be the club president and Antonetti the GM and made other promises.

Antonetti said he was "very fortunate to have a choice of two of the best jobs there are with two of the best owners to work with," Antonetti said. "The Cardinals may be one of the top five GM jobs in the business, but we are very happy where we are and Paul Dolan made it impossible to leave.

it happens all the time, in every industry --- a hotshot up-n-comer gets wooed by an outside employer, lands an offer, takes it back to his current boss, and extracts a promotion (or the promise of one) and a bigger salary. that's all that happened here. it's not as if antonetti spurned the cardinals in order to wait for a more attractive job with some other team. he chose to stay with the organization he knows and is familiar with, in the city where he and his family already have roots. can't hardly blame him for that. here's another report, from the indians' official site:

"I am very fortunate to be in a great personal and professional situation in Cleveland," Antonetti said. "After conversations with Mark and [team president] Paul Dolan, I am very comfortable with my current position and future with the Indians."

there are many other, more exotic interpretations abroad, assigning blame to this party or that. "la russa won," goes one of these tropes --- but if that were truly the case, then why would the cards have come so close to hiring a 32-year-old sabermetric geek in the first place? i agree it was a mistake to rehire la russa before the new gm was in place, but he's not the reason antonetti turned down the job. likewise, the argument that antonetti feared a power struggle with luhnow is largely spin generated by the walt-was-mistreated wing of the media. two years ago, when antonetti perceived a fractured power structure in boston (after theo epstein's temporary ouster), he simply refused to interview the job; had he perceived the same problem here, he wouldn't have come so close to accepting the post. "I was given a strong indication the next general manager would have autonomy over all baseball matters," he says in this morning's p-d. also: "There has seemingly been an undercurrent about reservations I had or someone had. I had no reservations about St. Louis."

to the extent that any personnel scared him off, i don't think they were in the management suite --- i think they were in the clubhouse. you all saw the roster matrix yesterday --- an old, overpriced big-league roster and a development program just awakening from years of neglect. yet with those dicey resources, he'd be expected to win immediately and, at the same time, rebuild for the future. . . . . it might have seemed like an exciting challenge, and no doubt it was flattering to be told "we think you're the whiz-kid who can do it." but once cleveland promised more money, security, and advancement prospects, his current job simply became more attractive than the chance to modernize the cards' fusty organization. he had two opportunities; he chose the better one.

until antonetti leaves the indians to take a gmship in some other city, all the talk about luhnow running him off or la russa calling the shots or dewitt lowballing the guy or whatever is just that --- talk. i understand the frustration; he would have been a fantastic hire. but i don't see what the cardinals could have done differently to lure him away. the indians know how talented this guy is, and they were determined to keep him. from this morning's cleveland plain-dealer:

Antonetti, who just finished his sixth season as Indians assistant general manager, had his contract restructured by President Paul Dolan. He'd signed a four-year extension on May 15, but it's believed Antonetti's deal was sweetened with a raise and more years.

"We're ecstatic to keep Chris here," Indians GM Mark Shapiro said. "He's an impact member of the front office."

There was speculation Antonetti withdrew from the Cardinals job because the general manager's authority might be restricted. Manager Tony La Russa and his coaching staff were rehired before a general manager was hired. Walt Jocketty, who resigned at the end of the season after 13 years in St. Louis, reportedly struggled for power with Jeff Luhnow, vice president of amateur scouting and player development.

Antonetti denied that.

"It's a fantastic opportunity and John will do a great job," Antonetti, 33, said. "It's one of the best general manager's jobs in baseball. Bill DeWitt [chairman of the board] is prepared to give the general manager all the autonomy he needs."

Antonetti, however, did not want to leave the Indians.

"I have an opportunity to work with a great group of people in a phenomenal work environment," he said. "I'm appreciative and fulfilled by the responsibilities I have in my current position."

so we're left with mozeliak. is that so awful? i share the concern that he'll be too deferential to la russa; that part of the "la russa won" argument, i get. the moves mozeliak made during this past month suggest a proneness to continue the team's recent pattern of seeking expensive short-term (non-)fixes rather than developing long-term solutions, but he only made 3 moves; it's unfair to define him by such a small number of decisions. if what he showed us in october represents his full repertoire, we're in trouble --- but it's way too soon to make that conclusion. before i write him off as "jocketty lite," i want to see what he can do. his handling of eckstein, taguchi, and miles will provide an early tell. mozeliak will be presented with a good case that those players aren't worth big dollars (or in eckstein's case, multiple years). jocketty wouldn't even have listened to those arguments, much less given them equal weight to the preferences of the manager. will mozeliak? his decisions re those players will reveal much about the degree to which the vision has really shifted and sabermetric thinking has penetrated the front office. i'll also be watching to see how vigorously he pursues aaron rowand, a player the cards have been rumored to want; if he throws 10s of millions at that guy, let the weeping commence.

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Those Comments

The comments by Antonetti do make me feel a little better about the situation. If Mozeliak truly was the best of the rest (i.e., he'd have gotten the job even if he wasn't part of the organization), then it's a good move.

It just makes it look like the team settled again. Hopefully that perception isn't reality.

C70 at the Bat

by Cardinal70 on Nov 1, 2007 9:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yes, but was he really the best of the rest?

Let's put losing Antonetti to one side for a moment; What's the case that Mozeliak was the second best option?! Other than disappointment, I think a second factor leaving the Cards faithful a little sore this morning is the fact that, after losing our first choice, we just went with the guy who was there.

Is there a legitmate case to be made that any other team in baseball would have hired Mozeliak as their GM?

Does Mozeliak have any credentials that recommend him to serve in, to paraphrase, "one of the five best GM positions in baseball." What's this guy's claim to fame anyway?

Is it really the case that there's not a better option out there?

Somehow, I get the feeling that inertia played a big role in handing the job to Mozeliak. Any one else suspect that Mozeliak is just a placeholder for Luhnow?

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Nov 1, 2007 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Placeholder...

...may be a little presumptive. After all, the guy does need a chance to earn his reputation. But you bring up a good point re: inertia. Did the Cards ID Mozeliak early on as their #2 choice? Or was this partly timing and the way that things dragged out? We may never know, but it makes you wonder about Paul DePodesta or Kim Ng or any of a host of other potential GM prospects that were never mentioned.

by airhad on Nov 1, 2007 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I seldom comment

but read everyday. You always put together thought-provoking entries and something to really digest for us Cards fans. Thank you for another great post.

That being said, I agree fully. It is a let down not getting CA after all the hype, but we should wait and hope for the best with Mo. He could be great. We fear that he won't, but at least hope for something more.

by JBagKY on Nov 1, 2007 9:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It will be a year before we truly know

I think it will take a while, up to a year before we know what direction the Cardinals are taking under Mo. The Eckstein decision is one of the things that will give us clues, but there are others.

What type of free agent signings and trades do we make in the off-season? Do we aquire players that block talent in the minors or do we fill in the gaps until they're ready?
What does the composition of the team look like coming out of spring training?
What do we do during the season? Do we make trades with the future in mind or are they stop-gap measures?
Probably most important, what do we do in the draft? Some people were upset that we didn't take a risk on Porcello but my biggest gripe was that we didn't really talk to Russell or Stutes. And from what I understand, Walt was the one that didn't seem to be in a hurry to start talking. If you believe Luhnow has the ear of Dewitt, then the reason we didn't get them signed wasn't because the money would have been over slot, but that Walt didn't make the effort.

I would have liked Antonetti because it would have been a clearer indication of the path the organization was taking. However, I think it would have duplicated a lot of the skills that we have in Luhnow without filling in the gaps. I think Mo is much more complementary in his skill set and in the long rum, could be a better choice. Unfortunately, we'll have to wait to see what direction he takes the club.

by kjblair on Nov 1, 2007 9:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I told my wife last night

That Cleveland upped the offer to keep CA. I was disappointed, but never thought otherwise. The negative doomsday posters get to me sometimes.

Every move by this team has some sort intrigue. Come with that stuff.

by nybirdfan on Nov 1, 2007 9:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I was pissed more than anything,

yesterday afternoon, but now knowing that the Cleve not only matched the offer, but presumably beat it, I can't blame anyone. DeWitt tried, but he couldn't get him; life goes on.

Now go be great, Mo!

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Nov 1, 2007 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Youth and Moz

I was curious. Given Walt's neglect of the minor league system, what were his responsibilities in Colorado and Oakland before he was hired?

I cant imagine that he had a lot of Minor League responsibilities given his general lack of interest in developing players. In this era Mozeliak would represent and upgrade over Jockety in that he has, albeit not too sucessfully, managed player development for a team. He should possess a better understanding of the nuiances of the draft and player development system.

Look at it this way, it has been speculated that Luhnow wanted to draft Porcello in the last draft but didn't recieve a commitment from Jockety. I would bet with Mozeliak in charge we would have gambled on it and probably would have signed Russel. If this is the case the team will be fine as long as any of the commitments to the mediocre players are kept to two years or less so that they can untangle the team from the end of the Walt era. I really dont think that the Eckstein, Taguchi, or Miles dealings have much of a bearing on the long term health of the franchise. They can give them as much money as they want as long as the commitment is not very long.

by BigJawnMize on Nov 1, 2007 9:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I am wrong...

...Jocketty was the minor league director for the A's in the early 80's.

by BigJawnMize on Nov 1, 2007 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A voice of reason

thanks Larry for the info and the clarity. It all became clear last night, IMO. Cleveland, in fact, is a better situation so long as he, in fact, does inherit the GM job. Like i said before in my prediction diary - the Cards went after the guy I wanted him to. You can't fault the big club this time.

Mo does deserve this shot. I do like what I'm hearing in his interviews. Lets let his contracts given and the 2008 draft do the talking.

by silent_bob on Nov 1, 2007 9:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Links?

To any of his interviews? I haven't heard much from the mouth of Mozeliak...

by airhad on Nov 1, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

I agree. Let's see what Mo really has in mind before throwing him to the lions. As your post yesterday reminded us--Walt had a pretty rough first couple of years and then grew into being the magician we loved for most of his tenure. Mo may very well end up being Jocketty Lite, but we won't know that for awhile. Even if he makes some questionable moves now (and he already has), I'm still willing to see what the future holds before branding him a failure. If the team is competitive in any sense of the word over the next couple of years, I'll consider that an average success. If we get to playoffs again sooner than later, I will consider that a rousing success. Much good and much bad can come of all this. Speculation can be a fun diversion, but not all of us are willing to be so sure we know the minds of others. As the brilliant William Carlos Williams put it:

so much depends
upon

a red wheel
barrow

glazed with rain
water

beside the white
chickens

Nobody knows what "red wheel barrow(s)" Mo will find along the way. Let's give him the chance to find a few. We may be pleasantly surprised. Or not ;-)

by rockin redbird on Nov 1, 2007 9:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

more on Williams

That's one of the things I love about this site; it has posters knowing enough to quote one of my favorite poets, William Carlos Williams (I actually visited him once at his home in Rutherford, New Jersey, but that's another story). Even more apropos is his poem that begins

The crowd at the ball game
is moved uniformly

by a spirit of uselessness
which delights them--

and ends with these lines:

It is summer, it is the solstice
the crowd is

cheering, the crowd is laughing
in detail

permanently, seriously
without thought

The crowd here, at least, has thought to spare. Let's hope Mozeliak's thoughts are equally creative and productive. That's certainly what the Cardinals can use.

by MikeG on Nov 1, 2007 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

the press

the media really pushed the "Antonetti didn't like the organizational set up" story line yesterday when the news was announced.

Note this from Bernie's post announcing the news:
"Antonetti apparently backed out; concerns over autonomy (in other words: the Luhnow factor). That according to associates...."

http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5062720&highlight=#5062720

I think the Rosenthal piece had some similar speculation.

Anyway, i think that really fed some of the fan disappointment and conspiracy theory making amongst the message boarders.

Cardinals Diaspora

by VanRam on Nov 1, 2007 9:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

also

Hahn from the White Sox toured the stadium etc (like Antonetti), but that wasn't reported in the Post Dispatch until today. Which i think further added to the confusion and speculation among fans that the Cards had hired Antonetti and the drove him away.

by VanRam on Nov 1, 2007 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rowand

Whats wrong with giving Rowand say, 4/40. Isn't that the same thing Eric Byrnes got? I would love to get a solid starter in the OF, which would mean we could dangle Duncan in a trade for some pitching.

I AM scared that we will resign eckstein to a multi-year deal. He hasn't been able to stay healthy and, in my mind, doesn't deserve big bucks/or years. I know he was our WS MVP, but we already paid him for that (year), we don't need to pay him again.

Erik Bedard would look good in red

by stlknows on Nov 1, 2007 9:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

.....but if you, like most people think

that Byrnes was overpaid.....

by sdrone on Nov 1, 2007 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

overpaid

yes I think byrnes was overpaid, but right now the whole league not on their first contract is overpaid. Going into the year with Duncan, Edmonds and Ankiel as our starters scares me.

Erik Bedard would look good in red

by stlknows on Nov 1, 2007 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

because we have 2 guys

maybe 3, who will outperform Rowand next season and are making close to league minimum.

Rowand the all-star is a creation of the home ballpark he plays in, and the white sox are going to make him very expensive. I bet he gets 4/50 anyway.

by SleepyCA on Nov 1, 2007 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

who?

I wonder who the 3 or 4 players are: Ankiel, Duncan, Ludwick, Schumaker? I would like to see Duncan get a chance to be able to hit lefties, I just don't know about that chance being with us. It'll take a little time.

Erik Bedard would look good in red

by stlknows on Nov 1, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

not schumaker

but I'd put even money on any of the 3 others matching Rowand's performance in '08, and '09 belongs to Colby.

by SleepyCA on Nov 1, 2007 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

rowand

he still had some pretty respectable road numbers for a center fielder. you are right though...too expensive. i think you are are really underestimating it at 4/50. i'd bet the house on the over.

by dmb60614 on Nov 1, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"la russa won," goes one of these tropes

"tropes" ... confess I had to look that one up: A figure of speech using words in nonliteral ways, such as a metaphor.

If I tropesed by saying "LaRussa won" in a post yesterday, it did not mean (from me anyway) that LaRussa ran off Antonetti. I meant that there would no longer be a future power struggle between the GM and manager. I think Mozeliak will do LaRussa's bidding, ergo, LaRussa won.

Noticed in quotes from Mozeliak in today's paper that he proclaims to be his own man and not to be "Walt Jocketty, Jr" (someone on this board tagged Mozeliak "Walt Light" yesterday). I very much hope Mr. Mozeliak proves me wrong. We'll see.

by jjray on Nov 1, 2007 9:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

didn't mean to single you out, jj

and i think we're pretty much in agreement. as i said in the post, i can see your side of the "la russa won" argument --- in the sense that mozeliak has strong ties to la russa, and might cede a little too much influence to him in personnel matters. if it works out that way, you'll be right --- and we'll be hosed.

by lboros on Nov 1, 2007 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

tropes

No offense taken. Learned a new word in the process.

by jjray on Nov 1, 2007 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can't really blame

Antonetti for turning the Cardinals down. This job could be a "honey trap" for someone on the rise. On the surface it looks nice and shiny -- new stadium, NL Central, Pujols, an owner who talks the talk about committing the resources necessary to win.....but on the other hand, CA did not have the freedom to craft his own group --not with LaDunc, Mo & Luhnow already on board and firmly entrenched -- the roster is aging, despite DeWitt's $$ promises there is limited roster flexibility, the farm only has one true impact kid on the horizon, the community (fans/media etc) likely will not have the patience to sit through 3 bad seasons of rebuilding (and does Pujols??).

Lets face it -- this is not an optimal situation for any new GM regardless of how much history and tradition the franchise is cloaked in.

by MrPlow on Nov 1, 2007 10:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

To some extent I agree

But you also have to consider that the Cardinals play in the NL central. There might not be a 90-win team in this division for a few years. That kind of mediocrity can hide a lot of flaws when we rebuild.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 1, 2007 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

lb, again nice work.

I don't think I commented yesterday, but basically I read the situation the same way you called it. I am however a bit disappointed in the unimaginativeness of picking Mo'. However, like you, I don't think its fair to prophesize failure. We must give the guy a chance. Lets hope our faith is not mis-placed.

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Nov 1, 2007 10:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm still upset

not by the fact that Antonetti went another direction -- that's perfectly justifiable, and more so in light of those comments. But I am upset by DeWitt's decision-making process which seems to be, at best, puzzling. He never bothered to interview either Kim Ng or Logan White, and he did interview DePodesta and, apparently, found him lacking.

Bernie remarked yesterday that Mozeliak "impressed" in his time as interim GM. Impressed who and how? As LB noted, "he only made 3 moves." So what's so impressive about that? He picked up Izzy's option -- basically a no-brainer, especially considering that there's no readily available alternative for '08. Then he overpaid for Springer and Pineiro. Who was impressed by that? The answer: Bernie, Jeff Gordon, and the fans. They were polled at the p-d website and the response was overwhelmingly in favor of the Pineiro signing. So the writers at the p-d were impressed, and the fans were impressed -- that's why DeWitt chose Mozeliak over everyone else? That's a pretty piss-poor way to run a franchise.

Even if you don't agree, and many don't, that he overpaid for Pineiro and Springer, the arguments justifying the signings have been some version of "Duncan can fix Pineiro and make him worth it" or "you have to overpay for pitching." Neither of those arguments is implausible. Still, I haven't yet heard anyone say that the Cards got a bargain with either signing. No one has yet said, "Boy I'm glad we got Pineiro for 2 yrs., $13 M b/c he surely would've gotten 4-40 on the open market." Why has no one said it? Because it's utterly absurd, of course.

At best, the Cards got Pineiro and Springer for market value. That's a pretty low standard for the Cards' organization to set. If, what amounts to "impressive" is not severely overpaying for pitching, then management has set its standards far too low.

Mozeliak hasn't done anything "impressive." He didn't interview for the job, so it's not like his interview was "impressive." His time as the interim was his interview and it was hardly "impressive." At best, it was ordinary. The fans, and Bernie and Jeff Gordon may have been "impressed", but they shouldn't have been.

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 10:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

12 years.....

with an organization is an ongoing interview. And I'm fairly certain that he has been involved in discussions with the Dewitt and Co. on the future of the club. So, yes, he did interview, and it was more than just the moves he's made so far. I, for one, believe that fixing this club is going to be a challenge and we need to give him the opportunity to do it.

go crazy folks..........

by wwbd on Nov 1, 2007 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well I for one think Moz

has an "impressive" resume. If you were trying to imagine an ideal career trajectory that leads to a GM's chair, Moz's career would be a prime example.

And signing Piniero and Springer was sensible. These are supporting players, neither of which is being billed as the team's savior. Obviously you think they are paid too much. I agree, but I also think every damn player in MLB is paid too much. I live in the DC/Baltimore area, where real estate prices are stupid, but I need a damn house so I paid the stupid price. Pitching is stupid expensive too, and we just need to get over that.

But the thing is, you have to fill all the roster spots! And if you can slot a few guys in, early in the offseason, you can spend more time working on filling the MORE IMPORTANT roster spots. Not to mention the fact that if a new guy comes in from outside he's going to have a steep learning curve, and having a few of those lower-level decisions made already frees him up to do the heavy lifting where it counts. And, if I'm Moz I'm thinking "what if I get the GM job, who's my assistant?" Now that he's in the big chair, he can't delegate the negotiation of bullpen deals to his assistant, since he ain't got one. Dicking around to find "better" guys than Piniero and Springer as your #5 starter and RH setup man, when your organization is facing major challenges and huge uncertainties in the next few months, would have been professional malpractice.

Please, people, let's give the guy more than 24 hours to show us something. And let's remember that what he's "showed us" so far, given the position he was in 2 weeks ago, just isn't relevant right now.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 1, 2007 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If signing those 2 was sensible

that's hardly "impressive." As I said, at best it's ordinary.

And do you really think that anybody else would'nt have been able to evaluate Springer and Pineiro? That "steep learning curve" you spoke of wouldn't have allowed Kim Ng or someone else the ability to make such rudimentary (as you imply) decisions? Give me a break!

Mo may be the right person for the job. We'll see. It's DeWitt's decision-making that is strange. Maybe you're "impressed" (b/c Bernie and others are) by the 3 signings; I'm not. As I said, they are, at best, ordinary.

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've got a fine vocabulary and

when I say "sensible" I mean sensible, not "impressive" (which I used w.r.t. Moz's credentials, which ARE impressive). These two signings were sensible, and yes, I think you could legitimately describe them -- as you did -- as "ordinary." So what? Every team in MLB makes ordinary signings every year. You need average, ordinary guys on your roster. This does not refute my point, which is that these were baseline, end-of-the-roster signings that tell us nothing about what Moz might do to improve the TOP of the roster.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 1, 2007 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

nor does it refute my point

that Mozeliak hasn't been impressive. And yet, DeWitt was impressed. That, right there, is the problem.

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and as for his resume

it's not any better than anyone else's. Again, ordinary, not impressive.

The bottom line is this: DeWitt got tunnel-vision w/ Antonetti and, when that didn't work out, he went w/ his fallback option. He really didn't look at anyone else -- that was the mistake. It may work out -- maybe Mozeliak will do a great job, but that doesn't justify or absolve him of the poor job he did in the decision-making.

If he had interviewed all the best candidates, and relied on something other than those 3 signings w/ Mozeliak, it would be more justifiable.

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tunnel vision?

Can you back that up with facts? Because all indications are that Antonetti was the #1 outside candidate with no real #2 because Mo was better than the other candidates. What is wrong with that? They went for the home run and (hopefully) ended up with an RBI double.

by silent_bob on Nov 1, 2007 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good point

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 1, 2007 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

They never interviewed

Logan White or Kim Ng. Those are facts. Was Mo better than them? We'll never know.

People pulled out of the running when it appeared that Antonetti would get the job (also facts) so DeWitt was left w/ him, and his 2nd choice.

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Was Mo even #2?

People keep assuming that, but I don't see there is anyway to truly know that.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Nov 1, 2007 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dumb question

Who HAS interviewed Logan White or Kim NG?

I'm trying to remember - wasn't she "not interviewed" for some job last year? I'm wondering if it's 'cause she's a woman or because she's damaged goods somehow.

by sdrone on Nov 1, 2007 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nobody

it's just that those two are on all the Sabergeeks lists of top GM candidates.

Sorry that the Cardinal's list wasn't up to par with what some poster's list happens to be.

DePodesta is a Moneyball guy - and all the other candidates that HC touts are as well. It's not hard to see where his allegiences lie.

That's fine, we all have our opinions. My problem is that he ignores the fact that the Cards did in fact interview Woodfork and Antonetti AND they have publicly expressed the desire to move towards statistical analysis. I'm not happy that we didn't get CA. But to say that the search was inadequate is splitting hairs and also seems to be an opinion with little to no factual basis.

by silent_bob on Nov 1, 2007 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What, Bob, was impressive

about Mozeliak's 1st 30 days? He may do a better job than anyone else would. But it's bothersome that DeWitt was either "impressed" with the job he did (b/c it was ordinary at best) or impressed with the fact that Bernie, Gordo, and the fans were impressed. My real opinion is that DeWitt decided on Mozeliak once Antonetti bailed b/c the fans and the press liked the Pineiro signing (or at least, that it helped his candidacy). If that had anything whatsoever in the decision to go w/ Mozeliak, it was poor decision-making...period!

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

what he did

we have no idea what he did or did not do in the the past thirty days. We do know of the three contracts that were given out - we do not know of anything else - that does not mean nothing was done. You also have to consider that his history with the club is much longer than the past thirty days - and that you cannot expect DeWitt to ignore that history in his decision making.

I have no idea whether Mo will be run out of town in 2 years or build the next dynasty - point is - neither do any of us. We have half of the truth - at best - and much of the 'truth' that we have isn't even reliable. So we can argue - but it is really only for the sake of argument.

by cdb on Nov 1, 2007 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But the point was

which only 1 person to this point has commented on, that Bernie said that Mozeliak "impressed" during his time as the interim -- Not that he had impressed during his x years with the club, which no doubt is true -- but that he impressed while serving as the interim.

He couldn't sign other teams' free agents, couldn't even negotiate salary with them. The obvious conclusion is that, by re-signing 3 Cards' free agents, DeWitt was impressed. Why?

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Could Mo have impressed

during his many years as an assistant GM, considering, from many reports, he has a great rapport with agents, players, and other clubs? I don't agree with the "impressed during the last 30 days" but just don't understand why you are so against Mo when you don't even know what he's all about. None of us do. Again - I wanted CA. But I do not agree with your anti-Mo sentiment. We'll have to agree to disagree here.

by silent_bob on Nov 1, 2007 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We don't have to agree

those were Bernie's words, not mine. I didn't just pull it out of my ass to see if I could get you riled up. And, as I said above, he probably did impress during his tenure w/ the club before being named the GM. However, as I said above, that's not what DeWitt was "impressed" by, according to Bernie.

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Probably

Bernie was filling space by saying "impressed". DeWitt more likely was impressed by Mo's ability to work in a hostile environment over the last couple of years. Since Walt's firing, Mo has had responsibility for the front office. The results the fans see and the writers point to is the 3 signings. What DeWitt sees (and the fans will never see) is the working atmosphere that Mo has created in wake of Walt's departure. That working atmosphere and potential for future growth as an organization is probably what impressed DeWitt to the point of being satisfied with Mo as the number two choice.

by ubeddie on Nov 1, 2007 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Perhaps you're right

quote from Bernie:

"Mozeliak impressed during his trial run."

http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5064009&highlight=#5064009

There's little doubt that he had to be impressed w/ the way in which Mozeliak dealt with the juvenile demeanor that characterized the Cards' front office since Luhnow was promoted. He should get bonus pts. for that. But that's not what Bernie was referring to.

And maybe you're right, maybe DeWitt was impressed with general interoffice sort of stuff that we don't see. Maybe it was the contrast with the last year or so of Walt's tenure that impressed DeWitt. I hope that's it. I hope you're right.

I hope that DeWitt wasn't "impressed" by the media's and the fans' reaction (some people still haven't gotten this yet) to the 3 signings. I would hope that DeWitt didn't choose Mozeliak over the others b/c the fans and media liked the Pineiro signing. The fans' and media's reaction to those things should have been wholly irrelevant -- I sure hope that the p-d poll that said that 60+% of Cards' fans liked re-signing Pineiro didn't give Mozeliak the upper hand. If it did, if it had any effect at all, then DeWitt is the biggest problem this organization has.

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

As long as we're quoting Bernie,

How about this in his latest blog post:

"In his 30-day trial run as interim GM, Mozeliak made a positive impression on DeWitt, in large part because he had strong opinions, and wasn't bashful about expressing them. And DeWitt welcomed the aggressiveness."

Frankly, it's absurd to look at that quote, not to mention Bernie's cryptic, one-line statement on the message board that you linked to about DeWitt being "impressed," and assume that DeWitt was impressed by three bullshit, bottom of the roster signings. It is much, much more likely that DeWitt liked (i.e., was "impressed" by) Moz's style. And of course, how do we know they didn't have a meeting in which Moz even spelled out a clear plan for what he'd like to do in the offseason if given the opportunity. (Indeed it would be amazing if Moz did not come into this situation with a game plan that he could present to ownership.) It's clear you dislike DeWitt, but you apparently think he's a complete moron. It's a real stretch to assume DeWitt is any more excited about Russ Springer than any of the rest of us are.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 2, 2007 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why quote Bernie?

The invaluable Derrick Goold transcribed the presser and asked exactly the question we're arguing over:

Derrick Goold: Mark, can you elaborate on [how Mozeliak impressed you in the past 30 days]? We can all see the public signings and extensions, but were there things done in the front office that Mo was a part of as far as "integrating" some of these things or changing the way the front office worked?
Mark Lamping: Mo stepped right in and acknowledged that he had to take charge. He opened up the lines of communication immediately. We met with all of our employees at 2:30 today. Bill made the announcement on Mo.
I thought it was great because it's an internal promotion, and that tells you something about your organization if you can promote from within. I think that's a positive comment on the strength of the entire organization.
The first thing Mo said to all of the employees was if there have been barriers that have been built up over the years between the baseball operations department and the rest of the organization they're coming down today. That takes leadership, to step into a job with about a negative-half hour of tenure and to make a statement like that. That wasn't the first time Mo stepped up. Sometimes you don't really know how strong of a leader somebody is going to be until they're given that leadership opportunity. I don't know if Mo viewed it as a pre-empetive oportunity, but he certainly took advantage of it. I observed it and I was very impressed.
Bill DeWitt: I'll add to that. The energy in the baseball operations department is unlike what we've had here for a long, long time. Everyone knows that their opinion is valued. There is no tension. It is a completely open forum within in that group. You can see the enthusiasm and excitement in the days ahead. It's just refreshing to see. I'll second what Mark said. The leadership that Mo has shown to include everyone and respect everyone's opinion has been dramatic.

(Bolded section my emphasis)

Mozeliak's done exactly what was needed as interim GM, as I ranted about earlier.

by liam on Nov 2, 2007 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly right

As interim GM, Mo would have been tasked with two things:

Sign the FA's we've got under control and that the powers that be agreed to bring back (Check, and a good sign is who hasn't already been brought back)
Start the healing process within the organization (I'm guessing a big Check, as La Russa finally met with Jeff Luhnow and they found they had a lot to agree about.)

That he's apparently done both tasks in so little time is impressive. He's taking a bunch of unfair criticism around here—a lot of the posters are being uncharacteristically hysterical about this. Antonetti had an offer on the table from the Indians that was, in many ways, better for him and his family. Let's see what kind of GM Mo will be before deciding he's going to run the franchise into the ground.

Of course, if he signs Eck to a multi-year deal, I'll join the mob with a torch and pitchfork.

by liam on Nov 1, 2007 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Sabergeeks"

I guess if you can't contradict them, try insulting them. Good work.

BTW, Logan White is the Dodgers' Director of Scouting.

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

hc

have to agree with you on this one; maybe i was just missing the sarcasm earlier

one thing about what you said above about bernie saying dewitt was "impressed" by mo: i wonder if this is one of those times where bernie missed on his normal hit-and-miss reporting? or did dewitt say that publicly?

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Nov 1, 2007 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dude, Larry called Antonetti

a "sabermetric geek" in the original post. I didn't mean it as an insult. Maybe you don't pay attention to my posts, but I'm a SABR apologist.

by silent_bob on Nov 1, 2007 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

An RBI Double?!! Really?!

I'd call Mozeliak a bunt. We're not out, but home plate is a long, long distance away.

So says, The Dude

by Titus Pullo on Nov 1, 2007 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

By the way

You keep bringing up DePodesta - there has to be a reason why he hasn't gotten a job since being fired by the Dodgers. I wasn't impressed by his wheeling and dealing while he was there. If he can't even get an interview or offer from the rest of the vacancies in the NL Central...hmm.

by silent_bob on Nov 1, 2007 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, you're right

if the Astros or Reds don't like you, you're no good.

I wonder if anyone knows anyone else who was rejected by those two organizations for their GM position?

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

houstoncardinal

why the sarcasm? i think he asked a decent question; they arent the best run teams in baseball, but it was a fair point

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Nov 1, 2007 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

His point was

that something must be wrong w/ DePodesta b/c the Reds and Astros didn't grant him an interview. Maybe that's a decent point but, if it is, the criticism applies to Mozeliak as well.

Mine is, like yours, that those aren't the best run organizations in the world and to use those as a baseline isn't a very good idea. Why would you justify the Mozeliak hiring by saying that DePodesta isn't good b/c he wasn't hired by the Reds or Astros? Neither was Mozeliak -- and he was interviewed by both.

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You don't interview everybody under the sun

When you're looking to hire someone for a position, you don't interview everyone who sends in a resume. If you did, you'd never get through the process.

It's the same way with hiring a GM. You identify certain characteristics you're looking for in the person. You evaluate who's expressed interest. You reach out to those folks that didn't call you up but you'd like to talk with. From that, you develop a short list of people to do phone interviews. Finally,you select the 2-3 candidates to do inperson interviews. From that, you select who you want to make an offer to.

It's possible that White and Ng didn't express any interest, or they weren't interested when we called them. It's also possible that they didn't meet the criteria for what we were looking for.

It's just not feasible to interview everyone. (And people were complaining it was taking too long as it was.)

by kjblair on Nov 1, 2007 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

People need to stop discussing this topic. You said it best as did someone else on this post.

Stop acting like you all know more about the team than the inside people. There is too much discussion on speculation and no examples of what MO will do. It is getting old seeing people talk like the work right beside all these guys and know all the in's and outs. It is kind of getting old speculating and seeing people make ridiculos statements when they are not in the know. It if fine to debate stats and what not but this is not something that can be debated because no one not even the media know the whole story behind any of this GM stuff. Can we please move on.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 1, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Move on if you like

but, if you will read all of my posts, nowhere do I speculate as to the kind of job Mozeliak will do. Nowhere. I have no idea. My complaint was with DeWitt's decision-making process, which was poor, in my view.

Bernie's comment was that Mozeliak "impressed" during his tenure as interim. My retort was that his tenure was anything but impressive. At best it was ordinary, and if DeWitt was impressed by that, he shouldn't have been and has set low standards for the organization. Read it again if you think there is any speculation about what kind of a job Mozeliak WILL DO.

My comments were on what he has done -- and if you think that isn't ripe for discussion, perhaps you should frequent non-baseball websites, 'cause that's what we do here.

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

not really addressing you

I was not bringing you into this. You are actually pretty level headed about things and do not talk as if you sit in the front office and work with these guys. There are a lot of people posing questions and making statements like they know what is going on which is not possible. I think it is still so early it would be very responsible of people to let things progress a bit before jumping on the keyboard and saying the Cards front office if full of "idiots" and whatnot.

This board is much better when discussing tangible things. It starts to get hard to discuss things when you don't have first hand knowledge.

I think you do a great Job HoustonCardinal. I have no problem with you, as you are a regular who has often put me in my place in a good way. YOu seem very knowledgeable about your Cardinal stuff.

thanks

by ICbirdfan on Nov 1, 2007 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

On the one hand, I agree with you

none of us know what happened, none of us have worked with Mo or DeWitt, and none of us really know that much about Mo's talents. On the other hand, this is a big story and it means a lot to people. I don't mind if they speculate as long as they say they are speculating.

by nycardfan on Nov 1, 2007 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And sorry

for the sarcasm, if that offends. Why, though, weren't you offended by silentbob's sarcasm?

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

hc

i went back and looked at silentbobs comments and didnt notice any sarcasm; maybe you are seeing something i am not

as far as depodesta, i am surprised he hasnt been connected to any searches as far as i know; now i am not saying he hasnt been contacted, but has he been like a number 1 candidate anywhere? if he has, then i missed it, and if he hasnt, then i do wonder if there is some reason for that because as we all know, baseball does an awful lot of using guys over and over

one thing i wonder about depodesta: do you think he is having trouble because he wasnt a player? i mean guys who were players seem to get chance after chance, where the newer moneyball type guys may not get that same treatment; in other words, either you have good early success, or you dont get another chance, at least for a long time

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Nov 1, 2007 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He lacks some critical skills

Depodesta has some pluses for sure (evaluating talent, for example) but he apparently lacks a couple of skills that are important when you're a GM. It doesn't appear that he has a lot of people skills and based on his time in LA, he doesn't deal well with the media. I believe his ideal position is something similar to what Luhnow has with the Cards. He would have duplicated what we already have.

Being a GM is much more complicated than just being able to judge talent. Or work with the media. Or a number of other factors. Since you're probably not going to find someone with every skill you're looking for, its important to find someone that fits in with the rest of the group, complements their strengths and fills in their weaknesses. By all accounts, Mo is a good communicator, works well with agents and players, and is able to interact with people with widely varying backgrounds. If you're tyring to marry stats and scouts, that's an important skill set to have. As long as he has the correct vision, and gets everyone working in the same direction, we'll be okay.

by kjblair on Nov 1, 2007 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Astros and Reds

Are those organizations are known for their prudent decision-making?

by flynn on Nov 1, 2007 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

what is unimpressive?

trading loduca, mota and encarnacion for brad penny and hee choi?

signing derek lowe for below market value?

signing jeff kent and jd drew who both gave good value during their tenure there?

astutely letting betre walk after a career year?

none of that is impressive to you?

Future Redbirds

by erik on Nov 1, 2007 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Depodesta...

He gets a bad wrap whne in reality he did a nice job in LA.

On top of everything you mentioned, the Dodgers farm system is among the best in all of baseball.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Nov 1, 2007 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

maroth

cutting maroth to enable adding mather to the 40 man roster was his most impressive imho

the reason i say this? would walt have cut him? or would he have been brought in, and attempted to be fixed in the spring?

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Nov 1, 2007 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cutting Maroth was impressive?

you're right, I left that off. But that's impressive? Anyone would have done that, and if they hadn't, they should've been fired immediately.

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i really think...

that walt would have kept him, mainly because he traded for him, and would have wanted a chance to fix him, so the whole thing could look better

look at mulder, how much of his re-signing was trying to make the initial deal look better?

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Nov 1, 2007 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I came away with

the impression that they were impressed with his leadership and interpersonal skills once he stepped into the role. And I agree with them that it's something that's hard to judge until you see it happen.

That said, the Pineiro signing was dumb. It probably was PR, but not because they thought it was a good move. It was just buying time, because the idiot contingent of the fan-base would've been frustrated much more when Thompson puts up that same 5.00 ERA or whatever.

I also find it funny that you would pay a pitcher for something that Dave Duncan does. If he's worth that much because Duncan can fix him, then shouldn't Dave get that money?

by plh903 on Nov 1, 2007 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You might be right, here

and I should have addressed it earlier. The one thing that Mo has done that might be considered "impressive," is that he proactively went out and, aggressively, signed people to fill holes on the team. This can be contrasted with Walt, who seemingly, waited out the process and wasn't aggressive. That may not actually be true about Walt though it certainly seemed that way last season.

Maybe DeWitt was impressed by Mozeliak's aggressiveness. Still, signing people just to sign people shouldn't be impressive. I'll admit that I do like the aggressive manner (if I don't like 2 of the contracts) in which it was done.

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I love...

how you act like you know more than Dewitt. There's more to being a GM then just signing players.

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Nov 1, 2007 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

..impressive arguments thru out...

Seems we were kinda stuck on rhetoric as to what "impressive" meant coming from Dewitt. Im guessing it had a lot more to do with stuff in progress than the 3 re-ups and the cut.

HC does his homework with the facts and figures, tries to be fair (its hard, I know) and has earned a place here at VEB to speculate on the workings of the club's inner circle more so than some. Truth is, none of us know, I dont.

But, that said, Mo now represents the present and Luhnow the future and maybe thats the match we needed. Walts ego couldnt deal with it and he's history. TLRs time is running out and he knows things have shifted. I hope he can adapt?

The process of winning in the CD NOW and building the farm for the future MIGHT be able to go hand in hand?

Improve the Cardinals team spirit, integrity and positive public image...sign Bonds for 08'!

by cardschinmusic on Nov 2, 2007 5:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rowand

also be watching to see how vigorously he pursues aaron rowand, a player the cards have been rumored to want; if he throws 10s of millions at that guy, let the weeping commence.

Thankfully I don't think that's going to happen. Mark Lamping was on Keven Slaten's show yesterday afternoon, and when "the king" suggested they improve the outfield by picking up Rowand, Lamping immediately balked and the idea and said Rowand wouldn't be type of player that could improve this team in any significant way.

by DarkHelmut on Nov 1, 2007 10:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Good post Larry, but...

Nobody has really pointed out a reason that we should be excited about Mo yet. I mean, what has he ever done that's so great other than get along with Luhnow? There's the underwhelming '04 draft, the underwhelming signings he's made so far, and...? Antonetti turned us down, it happens, but was Mo really the best plan B available?

by mikedallas23 on Nov 1, 2007 10:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Why to get excited about Mo

I think the question is why get excited at all, pro or con? Anything he's done in the past has been under Walt's imprimateur; despite whatever measure of freedom he'd been given, it was Walt's orchestra. He hasn't even been acting with true autonomy over the past few weeks, through the Piñiero signing, etc: that stuff was simply doing the housework while the boss was gone, nothing major was committed, and no new branches of a plan were revealed.

At the end of the day, it's the promotion of an executive within an organization, the same organization that flirted deeply with another candidate. Things didn't work out with CA, but you have to remember the same organization that thought so highly of CA thinks highly of JM. They didn't suddenly lose their capabilities of judgment overnight.

And as Larry's post about Walt's early YEARS remind us, we shouldn't commit to a final judgment on Mo after this off-season. That kind of activity leads to those tiresome "fire Walt now!" bandwagons.

I'm just glad for some clarity going into the hot stove league.

by Snacks LaPoint on Nov 1, 2007 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nothing major committed

He gave $8.5 million combined to Springer and Piniero next year, plus $7.5 million to Piniero in 2009. Add those 2 numbers together and you've got enough to get Schilling here next year, instead of handing that money to players that are likely to be little better than the AAAA types you could replace them with. You hand out enough of these 3-7 million contracts to players like this and all of a sudden you don't have the money to go after players that might actually make an impact.

by mikedallas23 on Nov 1, 2007 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's exaclty my beef...

They spend way too much money filling out the fringes of the roster. Save that money and get a guy who would make a true impact.

3.5M for a middle reliever with a career ERA in the mid 4's? We don't have anyone currently in the system who could do that for the 400k?

13M commited to Pineiro? The guy has been nothing short of terrible for 3 years now, save a misleading ERA he posted with the Cards down the stretch. You can't find a better way to spend that money?

Should they have gotten creative with those two roster spots...that's 8.5M to spend this year alone. That's the difference between another 7M dollar pitcher and a 15m dollar pitcher. Is the marginal benefit (if any) that Springer and Pineiro bring worth the difference between a 7M dollar pitcher and a 15M dollar pitcher. The answer is obviously no. How can it be so easy to figure out, yet the front office, who get's paid millions to make baseball decisions, can't grasp it?

This is the most frustrating thing. The whole strategy is wrong.

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Nov 1, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Pineiro

I don't know that we had substantially better choices to sign than Pineiro. And to give the devil his due, the "Duncan has fixed him" line hasn't been formally rejected yet. Quite possibly it will be next year, but it hasn't yet. Let us pray that he will do some sleight-of-hand imitation of a #3 pitcher for the next couple of years and permit us to congratulate ourselves on cheating fate.

On the other hand, I'm totally on board that he was signed to substantially too rich a contract. What, was there a bidding war for Joel Pineiro? I'll take Brad T and the difference in salary back, thanks.

"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill

by lordsummer on Nov 1, 2007 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think that

that theoretically it can be rejected. At least in my mind. As I said upthread, why pay more for Pineiro because of Duncan? Give Duncan the money if he's the asset.

by plh903 on Nov 1, 2007 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I just said we overpaid for him.

"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill

by lordsummer on Nov 1, 2007 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We agree there

but that's not what I was addressing.

by plh903 on Nov 6, 2007 3:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Duncan can't actually pitch a game

n/t

by sdrone on Nov 1, 2007 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't see what

that has to do with it.

by plh903 on Nov 6, 2007 3:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If Duncan's the reason

for Pineiro's (et al) success, he should get the money. He's a very good pitching coach but I think his wizardry is overstated.

by chuckb on Nov 1, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

In a somewhat twisted way,

that means Pineiro (might be) an asset. Obviously Duncan's "wizardry" is not foolproof. See: Kip Wells. However, Duncan has had a beneficial effect on some other pitchers (perhaps). If Pineiro is one of that putative class of pitchers that Duncan can spin from straw into useful rotation filler, then he's worth paying some small premium--much less than if he was useful rotation filler to anybody, but over, you know, straw, Anthony Reyes, whatever your baseline is.

"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill

by lordsummer on Nov 2, 2007 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It means that we

should target a certain subset of pitchers. Not that Pineiro is more valuable.

I think that Duncan's value as a pitching coach is overstated, but if it's real to whatever then I think that is is likely that he works best with a type of pitcher. I don't see how this is an advantage if (a) we pay more of those guys (don't get a better deal because Duncan works magic on a particular brand of crap), or (b) it means that the Cardinals can effectively ignore whatever percentage of the pitching population. Obviously this is moot if he does fine with good pitchers, but it isn't if we start paying more than a pitcher is worth because he and Duncan play well.

by plh903 on Nov 6, 2007 3:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

clarify my point

First, Schilling won't come here for $8.5M/1 yr, and you can't take '09 dollars and spend them in '08 (Piñeiro's '09 salary coupled with the fact that Schill's looking for a 1-yr deal). For what it's worth, I think Izzy's deal was a no-brainer, Springer's was unimaginative and expensive, and Piñeiro's was a medium-risk, high-reward thing.

But mainly, I'm saying it doesn't matter whether Mo's three moves were good, bad, or ugly. He was acting in an entirely different capacity prior to being named the actual GM. I'm guessing he was given the latitude to get some deals done, but was also made aware that he was not to begin some "new direction" for the franchise. That's what real GMs do, not acting GMs. He was told to maintain the status quo, get the basics done so as to not screw it up for the new GM. Now he's that guy.

Only starting now may we begin truly evaluating his vision, but we should also be pretty patient.

by Snacks LaPoint on Nov 1, 2007 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that's a very good point

we know that he's well regarded by agents, which is good, and we know about recent signings, which I haven't objected to given our lack of options. But it will be interesting to see what vision he has for the club. He's been living in the shadow of Jocketty for a lot of years. He may surprise a lot of us.

by nycardfan on Nov 1, 2007 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK

"First, Schilling won't come here for $8.5M/1 yr, and you can't take '09 dollars and spend them in '08 (Piñeiro's '09 salary coupled with the fact that Schill's looking for a 1-yr deal)."

I never said he would. You missed the point. If you don't spend that money, there is the difference between adding a 15M dollar pitcher and a 7M dollar pitcher.

"For what it's worth, I think Izzy's deal was a no-brainer, Springer's was unimaginative and expensive, and Piñeiro's was a medium-risk, high-reward thing."

Izzy, I guess you do for lack of better options. Not slamming him for that one. Springer, you are right on. Pineiro, it would take almost a mythical turn around for this to be high reward. I mean for him to be high reward he would have to regain his form of over 3 years ago. Not likely. High risk, medium reward.

"But mainly, I'm saying it doesn't matter whether Mo's three moves were good, bad, or ugly. He was acting in an entirely different capacity prior to being named the actual GM. I'm guessing he was given the latitude to get some deals done, but was also made aware that he was not to begin some "new direction" for the franchise. That's what real GMs do, not acting GMs. He was told to maintain the status quo, get the basics done so as to not screw it up for the new GM. Now he's that guy.

Only starting now may we begin truly evaluating his vision, but we should also be pretty patient."

Let's hope you are right. IMO, he shouldn't have been allowed to do anything. You are still in the exclusive rights window now. Why was he committing money if he wasn't the GM?

"I'm hungry. Not for food. Just for baseball" Amaury Cazana Marti

by bobbyballgame1 on Nov 1, 2007 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

gotcha

Now I understand, BBG1. Half of Schill's '08 coulda come from the money we saved if we hadn't signed Piñeiro. Although I agree there could be better uses of that $7.5M, I don't think it would be well spent on Schilling. We have to go into a rebuilding phase, so Curt's kind of a dead-end there. With Joel, you have a chance at changing him into a good tradeable commodity, à la Bottenfield.

I'd bet they rushed to make those three pre-GM moves to lend some stability to the organization. Remember, La Russa hadn't reupped yet, and there were players in the playoff media rooms asking "What the hell's going on with the Cardinals?" Maybe it was an attempt to project to potential GMs that there is money in the pocket and it's going to be spent.

I'm ready to sacrifice '08 in the effort toward getting one more WS ring in the decade, putting it up with the '60s as for Cardinal glory.

by Snacks LaPoint on Nov 1, 2007 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No way Jose

Springer is worth the cash. Piniero will be worth the cash. Schilling could fall apart unexpectedly. The off season has just started. I think both Springer and Piniero could have got more somewhere else. Everybody needs pitching. We should judge these contracts next year.

The Red Blazer

by Red Blazer on Nov 1, 2007 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What makes you think Pineiro is going to be

worth the cash? My crude market estimation that LB applied would indicate that he was overpaid.

by azruavatar on Nov 1, 2007 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

just going out on a limb

here, but I'd guess that whatever system they are using to determine "expected PRAR" gives them a much higher "ePRAR" than y'all's system did...

by SleepyCA on Nov 1, 2007 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

His MORP for 2007 was

4.5 M based on a mean VORP projection of 12.7 for 2007. PECOTA basically nailed what he produced this year. Going forward it projected him at 3.5M for 2008. Assuming he gets a bump for slightly outperforming his projection last year, which isn't necessarily a guarantee, I still don't understand the rational underpinnings of thinking he's going to be worth what they are paying him.

by azruavatar on Nov 1, 2007 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh, i agree

just trying to explain the F.O.'s decision.

by SleepyCA on Nov 1, 2007 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think it was a decision

based on rigorous statistical analysis. The front office probably heard from TLR and Duncan how much they liked working with Pineiro and how they thought he could be really good next year. I suppose it's possible that they are using some model that predicts a higher output next year but color me skeptical.

by azruavatar on Nov 1, 2007 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mo Respect

Long time reader, very rare poster.

I find some of the hand-wringing over Mo's hiring a bit over the top. First, I think it is very hard to evaluate an assistant GM, especially from the outside. The GM sets the direction and makes the big calls - the assistant feeds input into the process and helps get things done. He certainly has the breadth and depth of experience to perform well as GM. His mentorship under Walt will have taught him many things to do, and some not to do. Most assistants can see their boss' flaws - we hope Mo saw Walt's - and move to correct them once they get the reigns.

The new guy is going to face a lot of scrutiny, but what we need is patience. We all saw the ugly $100MM matrix, and know the scarcity of talent in the high minors. I think this will be a V E R Y S L O W L Y developing off-season for the Cards. Our best moves may not be until Spring Training is underway, or even until the season starts. Does Mulder look good in March, freeing up Looper for trade? Does Colby Rasmus bang down the door to the bigs, making Duncan more available? Does Scott Rolen have a great first half, increasing his trade value immensely? I think we may have to sit tight for four months before the biggest moves are made with this team for 2008.

Finally, we did in the front office what posters have been asking for on the field. We developed from within and got younger and cheaper, with (likely) no drop off in performance!

The Cards have MO-Mentum!

by Hoosier Cards on Nov 1, 2007 10:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think you are right

hoosier, I think the Cards should sit tight as far as trading goes for at least through spring training. I'm not saying to not make a trade for a SS or good starting pitcher if a great opportunity presents itself. But be careful with the minor league prospects, don't let another Haren trade happen. I think if La Russa can find it in himself to give a good look (and put some trust) in some of the prospects in the system. some of the problems with the team could be solved during next season. Had it not been for injuries and other negative matters, the cards would have easily won the division last year. This team as it stands will most likely be better than last year, but at the same time I look for Cincinnati, Pittsburg and Milwaukee to be better also. I look for the Cubs to go back to pretty much being the Cubs and Houston has it's problems. About all star time next year is when to start taking some gambles. I think the Cards will be competive next year(baring a rash of injuries) and remember Chicago and Milwaukee have yet to prove they know how to win on a consistant basis and the Cards have.

by ridgesee on Nov 1, 2007 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have said this in other posts, the Cubs

will ALWAYS have the Cub factor to deal with. But what they do have, that no one else in the NL Central is a # 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 starter, as well as another one stashed at AAA, and yet another one stashed at AA. They are going to be the team to beat in the NL central, and they aren't going to have to do too much to their roster. They are one of the few teams in baseball, in either league, that actually has enough quality pitching in their rotation.
I'm still mad at them for owning us this past season.....

by jillsinmo on Nov 1, 2007 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

jillsinmo,

I wished you would have named those six starters the Cubs have. I just looked at their roster and I see three good starters, a good bullpen, but no quality closer. But I just can't see all that starting depth, but maybe you"ve studied them more than me.

by ridgesee on Nov 1, 2007 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ah, yeah. They do have a starter to

fill each slot which is what I said. In order: Zambrano, Lilly, Hill, Marshall, Marquis, Trachsel, AAA Gallagher, AA Veal. Add Hart in to the mix and they have possibly another starter. Maybe you don't like their starters, I don't even like all of them, but they have more than enough adequate arms to choose from.
And I didn't say they had stud starters for all slots, but they have a guy for each slot in the rotation and then some. I will say their top three are as good as, or better than anyone else's top three in the division.
Bullpen is always a problem for them, I agree with you on that. But their starters are not going to be a problem for them next season.

by jillsinmo on Nov 1, 2007 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I see what you're saying

and I agree with the top three, but as you know pitching can be here today and gone tomorrow. The Cubs like the Cardinals don't seem to get much longevity from pitchers and I have been looking for Zambrano to come down with arm trouble for the last couple of years. Hard throwers that depend on fastballs and hard breaking sliders like Zambrano don't seem to last over 4 0r 5 years. He might be an execption though, but he seems too emotional and lack the good sense to really take care of himself. Now looking at the rest of their staff it needs a strong number 1 to be rated as good. For now they have it. But as you know...they are the Cubs.

by ridgesee on Nov 2, 2007 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I want to give Mo a chance

but I don't think any of us can say for certain all of the reasons why Antonetti didn't take the job. He's not going to come out and openly blast the Cards' organization in the press. It was my understanding that Antonetti's reservations about the Cards, as reported yesterday, came from his "associates".

I'm just leaving it as a mystery and a disappointment. I want to be careful not to sugar coat the whole episode, as if the Cards' organization doesn't have some real drawbacks in recruiting top executive candidates right now. We do have a lot of uncertainties and unanswered questions surrounding the organization and the power structure is at the center of that.

One thing I'm certain of. The press coverage of the Jocketty firing and now the CA/Mo drama has, to some degree, damaged the Cards. I'm just hoping that our "crazy" or "second rate" image that has been bandied about by the national media doesn't make it more difficult to sign the talent we need. Here's hoping it doesn't.

by nycardfan on Nov 1, 2007 10:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure that...

the team's image is damaged or the Cards will be seen as second rate...this is still one of the most storied franchises in the sport...I don't think that can be easily pissed away...the Yankees have had crazy crap going on for decades under Steinbrenner, but there is no shortage of players wanting to go there...I've been as critical of DeWitt as anybody, but I think he wants to win...the Cards are a little late getting on the player development train, but at least they ARE on it...I would have loved to see the team be a bit more progressive on the G.M. search, but we got what we got, so we have no choice but to go with it, and hope for the best.

by tbell61 on Nov 1, 2007 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

CA didn't have to call the Cards' GM job

as a "top 5 in all of baseball."

I don't think that the organization is viewed by outsiders as you think it may be.

by silent_bob on Nov 1, 2007 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's a good thing to remember

but Antonetti also called Mark Lamping last night and apologized for the media coverage, saying that it had not come from him. He must have thought it was problematic if he made that call. Of course this comes from Bernie, and we all know he hasn't been that reliable lately!

by nycardfan on Nov 1, 2007 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hilarious post...

Miller sucks.

by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Nov 1, 2007 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sugar coating can make you happy, that's for sure

by nycardfan on Nov 1, 2007 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with the first response

that we have no choice and so we need to hope for the best. And I think Mo does deserve support from fans unless he proves himself incompetent or unsuccessful.

But some of you clearly have been tuned into different media outlets if you don't think the Cards came off looking bad, both after the Jocketty firing and yesterday. The Cards weren't treated with much respect when they were World Series Champions. Why wouldn't stories like these feed into some media stereotypes that are out there?

I don't care what the media thinks, unless it damages the way other teams and players view the Cards. And at least from a "national" (slanted east coast) perspective, these stories have made the organization look less "storied" and more like they don't know what the heck they're doing.

by nycardfan on Nov 1, 2007 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you, Larry,

for (once again) being a voice of reason over the noise of yesterday's histrionics (good word choice).

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 1, 2007 11:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

listening to the press conference

he seems like he's willing to work things out with both the scouts and stats departments, and judging from the interview he did with the Birdhouse 3 years ago, he seems like a decent blend between the old and the new. i'm willing to give him a shot, and i'm willing to lambast him if he screws it up. but my initial reactions from hearing him yesterday were "eh, maybe this will be ok."

Future Redbirds

by erik on Nov 1, 2007 11:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

if you know of some links

to interviews with Mo, that might be nice to read. I'd like to hear what he has to say about bridging the old and the new. Thanks.

by nycardfan on Nov 1, 2007 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

informed decision...

He said that with all the new statistical measures available, they must be used in order to make a completely informed decision. And he made a point to include the value of a long time scout's "gut" feeling about a player.

Overall, I thought he made great, logical and candid comments. What frightened me the most was wondering how decisions were made under the previous tenure.

by birdsonthebat on Nov 1, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

blogging baptism

I've been a Cardinal fan, since the mid 60's. Watching from afar up here in Michigan for the last 35 years. I am impressed by the knowledge
of all the Card fans on this blog especially you Larry. The minute I think of something intelligent to write, I read some of the other responses & go "Man", I'm not in any of your guys league. I have a looooonng way to go until I could be considered a Cardinal 'fanatic'like some of you guys. I will continue to read & learn. Thanks Larry & the Viva El Birdos nation!

CliffNotes

by CliffNotes on Nov 1, 2007 11:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Whereabouts

in Michigan do you live, Cliff? If you are a true Michigander, you use your hand as a map. But we can't do that online, so just tell me.

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 1, 2007 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

True Michigander

I live on the West Coast of Mich. Using my hand as a map, I'm SW of the ring finger. How about you? You from Mich.? Card fans are few & far between in the Great White North!

CliffNotes

by CliffNotes on Nov 1, 2007 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i was born in saginaw

that's between near the thumb. i grew up in the lou, however. now i'm in iowa. i'd take mi of st. lou over iowa. oh well.

Future Redbirds

by erik on Nov 1, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Saginaw

You a George Jones fan? He sang about Saginaw.

Where do you live in Iowa? St Lou is not bad but some of Missouri is not that great.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 1, 2007 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cedar Rapids

aka boringsville

Future Redbirds

by erik on Nov 1, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ah

I live in North Libery so not far from ya in CR.
CR is interesting, and I guess that is what I have to say about that.

by ICbirdfan on Nov 1, 2007 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

lefty frizzell

not george

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Nov 1, 2007 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes.

I live in the SW corner (Berrien Co.) and, true, Cardinal fans are few and far between up here. This corner is Cubbie territory due to the fact that we get all our news from South Bend, IN and they are unduly influenced by their proximity to Chicago. The rest of MI seems to be Tiger Country.

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 1, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whew!

I guess I finally got my browser "favorites" link to VEB fixed.

I'm not sure, but judging from (most of) the posts regarding the Antonetti announcement I saw yesterday, I think an unknown hacker had surreptitiously changed the link to erroneously redirect me to the P-D fan forum.

At least I think that's what happened.

"Requiescat In Pace - 2007 Zombie Cardinals"

by AustinBOB on Nov 1, 2007 12:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

LOL

Nice vocab, BTW.

by cardsgirl95 on Nov 1, 2007 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Larry,

Very concise and seemingly on the nail assessment of the situation (given that none of us are flies on the wall when things go down, so we don't know the absolute skinny on everything).

The baseball world is changing. DeWitt reacted in 2003 when he hired Lunhow (by the way, he was on the radio this morning on 590, which was the FIRST time I've ever heard him on the radio). The hiring of Mozeliak is in line with those changes. Antonetti was part of the revolution in Cleveland, but it appears that Mozeliak is on board with the new world.

Another aside: prior to yesterday, I had never heard that Lunhow was born in Mexico and speaks fluent Spanish, which is one reason the Cards had him in charge of the International scouting moves. Lunhow mentioned on the radio this morning being born in Mexico.

I thought that Lamping's comments in the presser about the "walls coming down" speech from Mozeliak to the staff was interesting.

Time will tell if Mo is the man or not. But I agree with the last comment, if the Cards sign Rowland to mucho dinero, we are likely hosed.

Dave

by Sydney dave on Nov 1, 2007 1:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The White Sox are said to still have interest

in David Eckstein. The Cardinals absolutely MUST offer him arbitration to get that extra pick.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 1, 2007 1:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Or

Just hope he is signed before the deadline on offering arbitration in which case we get the picks anyway ;)

by StLHugo on Nov 1, 2007 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

pick, singular (sandwich)

but yes, that would be sweet. All someone has to do is offer him two years and we're in business.

Unless it's US that offers him two years. And then I'll be sick.

youneverknow

by meat on Nov 1, 2007 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

mmmmmmm

open-faced club sandwich.....drool.

by sdesserman on Nov 1, 2007 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Eckstein

Is a Type B FA, so we won't get a first rounder no matter who signs. The Sox first rounder is protected anyway.

by flynn on Nov 1, 2007 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't care if it's a 4th rounder

I want the pick.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 1, 2007 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sandwhich

it is a sandwich pick and I don't remember how they are ordered but it is basically a late 1st early 2nd round type of pick that we gain from him

by StLHugo on Nov 1, 2007 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely.

Just clarifying what we'd get if he walks.

by flynn on Nov 1, 2007 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

After thinking about this more

the GM probably doesn't matter as much as DeWitt. If he agrees to offer more money to sign new talent, Mo or CA would likely succeed. If he doesn't, then Mo's background may better suit him in finding bargains. But who knows...

by nycardfan on Nov 1, 2007 2:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Joel Zumaya out half of next year

with shoulder surgery. Think the Tigers will try Percy again or stick with Todd Jones. Jones was supposed to be moved to setup next year anyways.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 1, 2007 2:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Percy....

Is gone one way or the other I have to think. If not Detroit..perhaps The Brewers,?..with Cordero becoming a FA ...anyway you look at it, I think we have seen the last of him in a Cards uniform. Too good a talent at too good a price for others to pass up.

by Timbo02 on Nov 1, 2007 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

percy

isnt he a type b free-agent? so that would be another sandwich pick

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Nov 1, 2007 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Troy is a B

by Recon on Nov 2, 2007 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm worried

How will this affect Zumaya with Guitar Hero 3 just being released and Rock Band coming out in 2 weeks.

by dontEATnachos on Nov 1, 2007 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, if he really rocks out to guitar hero

three, and from the past injury, we can assume he does, he's out of luck. You just can't do that game justice if you don't throw your everything into it-both shoulders included....rock on, bro

by jillsinmo on Nov 1, 2007 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Visualizing a Sweet Future

I cannot deny that Jeff Luhnow and Chris Antonetti would have been a "match made in heaven", but like in most marriages, two of the same kind could have been a bit too aggressive, especially when statistical analysis continues to face tremendous skepticism and even animosity (ie. Jocketty and maybe.....La Russa?)
Even if statistics continue to threaten these professional "old timers" in baseball, I have to admit that relying on cold, hard numbers rather than human instinct seems soulless. But how many times was our own intuition wrong? Bear in mind, that Mr. Luhnow and Mr. Antonetti (whom I prefer to refer as instead of "geeks" or "sabermetric geeks") deserve the respect and admiration that we continuously emit through blogs and other sites such as this one, must also, in some way or another, rely on their instincts. We speak of them as if they are oblivious to what we are all sharing here, as well as what is said in the media, and as if they are "aliens" that have just landed onto this earth to "save" our favorite sport in the world!!! Just because they have the ability that most of us lack, the challenge these talented young executives face is the lack, or thereof, being "persuaders". This is where Mr. Bill DeWitt enters and gave Mr. John Mozeliak the GM position. INTEGRATION!!! He will continue to be an asset to the organization as he has in the last decade, but with Mr. Luhnow's expert guidance, even the most gifted among us can get better...and the rewards of doing it properly are great!
In short, just because Mr. DeWitt was unable to recruit another "whiz kid" (Antonetti) to join the family, (because of this: it happens all the time, in every industry --- a hotshot up-n-comer gets wooed by an outside employer, lands an offer, takes it back to his current boss, and extracts a promotion (or the promise of one) and a bigger salary. that's all that happened here. it's not as if antonetti spurned the cardinals in order to wait for a more attractive job with some other team. he chose to stay with the organization he knows and is familiar with, in the city where he and his family already have roots. can't hardly blame him for that.)...does not mean that we are in bad shape at all. What is important, as is to any organization, is that we all share the same vision. And by our continued support and loyalty as fans to the Cardinals organization, we will all help build a #1 World Class Team!

by proathlete on Nov 1, 2007 7:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

the real story - hiring Mo

the real issue that houstoncardinal and other "Mo Unhappy Speculators" are missing is that we never have the FULL TOTAL REAL story......posters make wonderful arguments based on what people like Bernie, Joe and "those guys" are reporting.........problem is, the story is much more complex than "those guys" ever know

DeWitt, CA, WJ, TLR, Dunc, Me, You, Mo, DePodesta have cell phones to speak to each other and their many friends for inside info as well as the decency not to share the details of those chats with "those guys"...thank goodness......(and lets not overlook that MLB has lots of inside info that they don't share in the name of $$$ and self protection but that's another sermon)
maybe Bill knows something about depodesta that we don't, maybe Ng has another job offer, maybe so and so is not returning so and so's call because of what so and so said, maybe CA's wife's ill mother is addicted to Cleveland, maybe somebody in LA front office ticked off DeWitt, maybe Mo has photos in his drawer, maybe the real GM is not available until this time next year and everyone knows we're buying time, maybe Luhnow reads this and laughs himself to sleep everynight over his perceived influence and power, maybe Luhnow is really an idiot, maybe Mo is Scott Boras secret lover, maybe, maybe, maybe....but there is another world and its called reality......just like the reality we live in except for bigger dollars with reporters standing around....you can bet that end of a long day, Bill DeWitt probably smiles, looks at his wife and says, "You won't believe this"....because that's what happens in big business every day....think CA is going to say anything other than "Cleveland and Stl nice" after the promises he's apparently been made?.....think WJ will ever speak the truth given his severance package?....think a current employee will speak the truth if they like their job and industry?
at the end of the day, dramatic investigative scandolous journalism (which has its place too) aside, you either trust your leader (DeWitt) to do the right thing or you don't because YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HE DID OR DID NOT DO.

so, are we to devoid VEB, the passion of houstoncardinal, blogging, speculation and discussion in general? of course not. one, all such gets us thru the winter and.......we love houstoncardinal and his knowledge and wit

but.....a grain of salt would be nice when speculation meets hair splitting logic

by Hinkster on Nov 1, 2007 8:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think

this is a good story.Mo just does what he should do.

by Evelynhas523 on Nov 1, 2007 9:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yes and Why Not?

Go Mo, Go!

by Hinkster on Nov 1, 2007 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

like houstoncardinal i'm still pissed

and there's nothing any one can say to change my mind.

Dewitt & Co screwed up by not getting Antonetti. i dont buy the excuse C-Town made him a better offer. nothing against the Indians, my best friend is a die hard Tribe fan & living in ohio I like the team. but you can't tell me Antonetti or any sane person would pass on being the GM of the St. Louis Cardinals just because he's "promised" the GM position if or when Mark Shapiro steps down.

dont be stupid people & believe that. Shapiro ain't going any where. he's hand crafted this team into a winner & there's no way in hell he's going to step back in a season or two and become the president & let Antonetti run the show. he's going to be their GM for many, MANY years to come.

dont think for one minute he stayed in C-Town for his family. that's a bs excuse every person uses when they turn down a job they dont really want. his kids aren't that old so it's not a big deal for them. its not like they are high school kids & will be leaving all their friends.

no the real reason Antonetti stayed was when he got a close up view of how the Cardials front office is run, it scared the piss out of him. there is something, and we may never know what, very, very wrong with the way they operate. Antonetti saw it & said thanks but no thanks. and that my friends should scare the shit out of every single Cardinals fan. because if Antonetti didn't want to run the show, we are in deep, deep trouble.

i said it wednesday & i'll say it again. this is all Bill Dewitt Jr's fault. he fucked up big time.

pardon my english.

don't take this as i'm unhappy with MO's hiring. it is what it is. a plan B move. MO's a good #2 choice. he's been with the club for 12+ years now & his track record of making deals & having a good repor with players & agents is a big plus. hearing how he's stepped up and become the leader of the Cards i think is a very postitve thing. i'm willing to cut him some slack & let him have the run of the house for a while. i'm anxious to see what he's got.

some asked for a link of some interviews MO's done & here's a good one he did yesterday morning. he talked about ARod, Schilling, ECK & Reyes. he talked trades. he pointed out the Edgar deal to the tigers & how much the ATL got for him. he said Rasmus is untouchable. he thinks the Cards have piching to move in the minors for trades. any way, listen for yourselves.

http://www.insidestl.com/morningafter/audio/110107JohnMozeliakInterviewProcessPrioritiesSchillingBei ngOnHold.mp3

i'm pissed Antonetti isn't in charge. i'm pissed the Cards have a rep of being run by morons who have no business running the best NL franchise. i'm afraid we as a team are in trouble & wont make the playoffs or be competive for a few years. i think MO's got his work cut out for him. but i think, think he'll do OK.

my fingers are crossed he'll do outstanding & calm all my fears.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Nov 2, 2007 8:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Needed a Change

What dissapoints me is I feel the Cardinals have been moving in the wrong direction for a few years, getting steadily worse. They need a clear change, and Mo/Larussa doesn't seem like one, at all.

by tarakas on Nov 2, 2007 9:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs