Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Mets Trade Ryan Church For Jeff Francoeur


franklin, my dear

a number of times during the season, i argued that ryan franklin ought to be starting. the cardinals signed him to compete for a spot in the rotation, i pointed out; he was used as a starter during spring training, throwing 3- to 4-inning stints; and he spent 3 and a half years as a starting pitcher for the seattle mariners, with tolerable results. here are his career stats as a starting pitcher, encompassing 106 starts; for context, i've included the stats of several comparable pitchers (familiar names, most of them) over their most recent 106 starts:

IP/GS H/9 W/9 K/9 HR/9 ERA WHIP
franklin 6.1 9.5 2.6 4.4 1.4 4.45 1.347
suppan 6.0 10.0 3.1 5.0 1.0 4.18 1.457
morris 6.1 9.9 2.4 5.2 1.0 4.66 1.370
marquis 6.0 9.3 3.4 4.8 1.3 4.80 1.412
pineiro 6.1 10.1 2.8 5.7 1.2 5.11 1.423
wo williams 6.0 9.7 2.6 5.4 1.4 4.51 1.362
batista 6.1 9.7 3.9 5.3 0.9 4.60 1.516
silva 6.1 10.8 1.3 3.5 1.2 4.40 1.342
liv hernandez 6.2 10.2 3.2 5.0 1.2 4.46 1.489

the first several names on the list are all former cardinal pitchers of the glorious recent past; the last few are free agents they could have signed/re-signed last year or might be able to sign this year. i ask the question: if you already have ryan franklin under contract for $2.5m, why would you pay $8m to $10m a year for one of these other guys? admittedly, franklin will earn incentive bonuses for every start he makes over 20 games; i don't know what those bonuses are, but let's say that he can double his salary if he starts 32 games; that would amount to a bonus of $200,000 per start. for $5m, the cards can get roughly the same performance they'd get from those other pitchers, at half the rate other teams are paying --- and apply the savings to improvements elsewhere on the roster.

let me anticipate a couple of counterarguments. here's the first: if you use him to plug a hole in the rotation, it just opens another hole in the setup-man position. he was very good as a setup man, so why move him?, the same objections were raised last year to the idea of moving wainwright to the rotation; the bullpen will suffer, he's unproven as a starter, etc etc. setup men are not that hard to find --- the cards plucked one off the scrap pile in 2007 and out of triple A in 2006. in my opinion, todd wellemeyer ought to be a strong contender for that job --- as documented here, he was unhittable in relief after joining the cardinals (sample-size warning: only 16 innings). russ springer might be up to it, josh kinney might come back healthy, and undoubtedly there will be another ryan franklin lurking at the bottom of the free agent heap (i haven't checked the list).

the second counterargument is this: in his last two years as a starter (2004-05), franklin was awful: a combined 12-31 record with a 4.99 era. those are fair points; here's my response. first, as we all know by now, pitcher won-loss records have to be placed into context; they don't always mean what they seem to. ryan franklin in 2004 had an era nearly identical to that of javier vazquez (4.90 and 4.91, respectively) and park-adjusted era+ (88 vs 92, respectively), but franklin went 4-16 while vazquez went 14-10. that's because franklin pitched for the mariners, who finished last in the al in scoring, while vazquez pitched for the yankees, who finished 2d in scoring. jeremy bonderman also had results nearly identical to franklin's (4.89 era, 92 era+), but he went 11-13 for the tigers (8th in scoring); bartolo colon's era was 5.01 that year and his era+ was 92, but he went 18-12 for the angels (7th in scoring). franklin's won-loss was so bad that year that he got a bad rap; and when he posted similar numbers the next year and finished with an 8-15 record (for a team that finished 15th in the league in scoring), he was deemed a terrible pitcher. and he wasn't terrible --- not particularly good, mind you, but only a shade under league average.

a second point about franklin's lines in 2004-05 is that they are pretty similar to a year we currently consider to be an acceptably good one --- braden looper's 2007 campaign. see for yourself:

IP/GS H/9 W/9 K/9 HR/9 ERA WHIP
looper 2007 6.0 9.4 2.6 4.5 1.1 4.94 1.337
franklin 2005 6.0 10.0 2.9 4.4 1.3 5.10 1.437
franklin 2004 6.1 10.1 2.7 4.7 1.5 4.90 1.423

we've been talking about the cardinals' need to find stopgaps --- players who can keep the team reasonably competitive for the next couple of years without tying up resources (ie, $$$ and opportunity). franklin looks to meet all the criteria. i think he can be a reliable #4 starter, a species that has been extinct in st louis since 2005, and he can do it for reasonable pay. plug him in alongside wainwright and looper, and there's 3/5 of your rotation --- not a great rotation, mind you, but those three could be close to league average as a group. that's almost 600 league-average innings for $12m, a savings of about $15m. . . . . . lot you can do with $15m if you spend it creatively.

0 recs | Comment 186 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Y'know, LB
That's a damn interesting idea. I was thinking more along the lines of Welley--but those numbers show Franklin might be the more reliable choice. It would have to be better than the Kipster/Maroth show at least. Hell, why not?

by rockin redbird on Oct 9, 2007 9:15 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jocketty Trades That Didn't Happen
I read an article after Jocketty was let go that back in 2004 he tried to trade Suppan & Marquis to Arizona for Javier Vasquez and a prospect but the Cardinal owners wanted some money coming back to them. Arizona said no thanks.

That sounds like a great trade right up Walt's pipeline -- and would have produced a more dominant starter.

Q: Who was the prospect and how much money "seperated" us from the deal and was it before or after the Mulder trade?

Sports Marketing & Media Mogul

by saytreykid on Oct 9, 2007 9:25 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you read that article here
the prospect was allegedly carlos quentin --- although i'm dubious that arizona would actually have included him in that trade. the amount of $$$$ was alleged to be half of vazquez's 2006 salary --- ie, $6.5m.

by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 9:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm headed out the door
so I can't be a in-depth (read: long-winded) as I'd like but just glancing at the peripherals that's not someone I'd want in the rotation.  
<5 K/9
<2 K/BB
<50% GB

His FIPs were all over 5.  I really don't know if there are any better options but Ryan Franklin circa 2005 does not look like a viable starting pitcher to me.

by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 9:39 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not even as a reliable #4 / #5?
he's under contract, he's reasonably priced . . . . no upside, i'll grant, but i don't see an easy way for them to acquire anybody with upside.

a guy w/ upside would be better; franklin might be more realistic.

by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 9:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It may not work out
but I'd rather them try an in-house solution rather than having a 5th starter spring training derby (circa 2005) with re-treads (i.e. Sidney Ponson).

by silent_bob on Oct 9, 2007 9:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well I think I'm taking issue
with the term reliable.  Franklin's skillset as a starter didn't have him as a groundball pitcher.  It didn't have him getting strikeouts.  He is incredibly dependent on his defense behind him.  I don't see anything here that makes him more than a fringy starter.  

Tragically, the more I look at our rotation for next year. . . I agree with you; I don't think there are any better options.  I don't think Franklin is going to be able to do much more than hover around 5.25-5.50 FIP but I guess that's the best we can hope for.

by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 11:37 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i think he'd be reliable
in a way that kip wells was not. i think he'd be reliable in the same way looper was reliable --- the team would break even in his starts, or come close to breaking even.

at most, this team is going to be able to add one above-avg pitcher this off-season --- they just don't have the trade chips to acquire more than one, and the free-agent market is full of guys like livan hernandez, who probably aren't much better than franklin but are a lot more expensive.

so if they add one good pitcher, and wainwright holds over, and you anticipate carpenter's return at the end of the year . . . . that still leaves 2.5 holes to fill. franklin could eliminate one of those holes and provide some cost certainty so that other areas of need (ss, 2b, of) can be addressed.

i don't suggest that franklin constitutes forward progress; but he might be a brake against further regression.

by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 12:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That makes sense,
especially in light of this year's FA market.    

by cardsgirl95 on Oct 9, 2007 12:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tyler Johnson
I caught the tail end of a conversation on Bernie's show last night - didn't hear the whole thing.  The idea of trying Tyler Johnson in the starting rotation was mentioned.  He started 40 games between rookie league and A+, was moved to the bullpen and stuck there.
Did anyone else catch the entire conversation yesterday?  Who in the cardinal organization would be floating this idea?  Couldn't be LaRussa and Duncan with their status so uncertain.

by Handsome B Wonderful on Oct 9, 2007 9:41 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Interesting
I just took a look at his numbers:

A: 15-3 2.01 ERA 1.14 WHIP 9.8K/9 3.12BB/9 7.14H/9 18GS 22G
A+: 5-5 3.08 ERA 1.48 WHIP 9.22K/9 4.32BB/9 9H/9 10GS 22G

A ball was in 2002 at age 21 while A+ was in 2003 and he hasn't started a game since, half way through 2003 he switched to AA as a reliever.

by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 9:53 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You have to wonder...
why he was put in the pen to begin with.  It doesn't appear he was struggling as a starter.  Of course it appears 12 of his highA games were out of the pen...I'd like to see his splits for that year as a starter and as a reliever.  I know he has a great slider, and a decent fastball...what else does he throw?

by cardzfanbub on Oct 9, 2007 9:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can't find his
milb splits anywhere... how many IPs was he averaging per start? Sometimes they'll let relievers start games just so they can get their work in in a controlled(er) environment. Not sure if thats the case here or not, though.
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Oct 9, 2007 10:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOOGY
I have to wonder if at this time he was also converted to a LOOGY in his AA debut as a reliever he posted a  1.67ERA  1.15WHIP over 20G and 27IP  that looks more like he may have done some long relief or full inning relief outings but his ERA dropped a lot while going up a level from 3.08 at A+, his success as a reliever could have convinced them that was his role.

by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 10:17 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Repitoire
He gets by on having one spectacular pitch--his slider.  In the minors, you can use one great pitch over and over and put up fantastic stats as a reliever.  At the majors, you struggle unless you go to the 'pen, where you can lean on that pitch a lot more.  A similar case in point would be Brad Thompson, who was dominant in the minors, and (while his sinker was still ridiculous), was able to stick in the majors in relief, but was much more fringey in a starting role.

by Valatan on Oct 9, 2007 12:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Your soapbox
How many times have you stepped up onto this particular one, Larry?

I see your point - and if TLR isn't back, it may even be discussed.  IMO, that's the only way the possibility exists.  

I say this because Franklin re-signed with the Cards during the season and he was quoted saying something to the effect of he liked how professionally he was handled by management.  He knew he would be the set-up guy and he will continue to be the set-up guy if TLR stays.

I would take a 2008 season of Franklin starting 150 IP at league-average performance for the money he's making, considering the majority of VeB is willing to pencil Piniero and Looper into the rotation.  Starting Franklin would sure give us a little more flexibility to somehow acquire ONE above-average starter.

by silent_bob on Oct 9, 2007 9:49 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wondered why
last year, Larussa was so stubborn about moving Franklyn to the rotation when it was consistantly was falling apart. Especially after Perseval came onboard. Perseval and Springer could have moved up to replace him as setup. Perseval, for the most part was used in mop up situations. (he was pretty much wasted). My only argument is that Welemeyer might be  slightly better. I would go into spring training with the idea of one or the other being in the rotation and the other setup. Give them both enough work so you could switch if you had to early into the season.

by ridgesee on Oct 9, 2007 10:33 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No reason to wonder
The bullpen completely falls apart when the 8th and 9th inning guys are shaky.  Franklin was doing a bangup job.  I wouldn't have messed with it either.

by sdrone on Oct 9, 2007 11:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So many questions
So few can be answered until we know if Tony will stay or go...

by JMedwick on Oct 9, 2007 10:33 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

set up
Any reason to think Percival would not be willing to stay as set-up/back-up closer for next year?  How cost effective is he?

by sportsman on Oct 9, 2007 10:34 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

one constraint is that Percy
has said that he'll only work half a season if he's in the role of a reliever.  Maybe that would work for us; maybe not.

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 10:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The problem is...
We project to have 4-5 #4/#5 type starting pitchers. Atleast that seems to be how we're labeling them - When the possibilities include Looper, Franklin, Piniero, Thompson, Reyes... We have a plenty of 'stop gaps' already. It seems that the team is made up of nothing but stop-gaps and league-average types. What we need are some consistent above-average performers.

by Birds on the Matt on Oct 9, 2007 10:37 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

how would you propose
that the cardinals acquire an above-avg starter? which player, and how would we get him?

by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 10:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Post
I think your idea was very good and the research very well done.  I think the only reason people are against the idea is that the Cardinals have way too many #4 or #5 guys already.  Franklin could possibly be slighlty better than some but not good enough to make much difference.  Like someone just posted the Cards desperately need a #2 starter.

I have no idea how STL is going to go get a decent starter.  Livan is a good big game pitcher but I just don't think he is worth the money.  He is more less a #4 starter at this point in his career.  We have a lot of #4 guys who are a lot cheaper.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 10:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not very good at this sort of thing...
but as you've suggested before, perhaps trade from our strengths. As has been pointed out, we have several very cheap #4/#5 starters on short contracts. The problem is they're fairly unknown quantities to the rest of baseball, so I'm not sure that's possible. We also have several inexpensive utility type players that seem redundant. And a plethora of left-handed hitting outfielders (and a need to make room for one more in the next year or so). I have no idea who to go after though, or if our surpluses (plus cash and/or average prospects) can bring in the above-average guys we need.

by Birds on the Matt on Oct 9, 2007 10:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we don't have any strengths
from which to trade.

we could trade duncan, and then plug the hole in the outfield w/ a free agent --- that would probably be smart. but a trade like that wouldn't be incompatible with adding franklin to the rotation. even if we get (pie in the sky) aj burnett, there'd still be holes to fill in the rotation, and franklin could fill one reliably and cheaply.

by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 11:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Zips
Disclaimer: I don't want to trade Chris Duncan

               AVG   OBP   SLG   G  AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI  BB   K  
Chris Duncan* .262  .346  .472 133 409  59 107 21  1 21  66  51 112  
Ryan Ludwick  .262  .330  .476 130 412  48 108 26  1 20  64  37 108

It looks like we could get the same production out of Ludwick as Duncan.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 11:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but
what do we do with the rest of them? We could just not re-sign Piniero, slot Looper into the rotation, but what about Reyes, Thompson for instance? Reyes to the rotation, Thompson to the pen as middle relief and spot starter? Rotation of Waino, "A.J.", Looper, Reyes, Franklin. That looks a lot like this past year's rotation as far as stability goes. Reyes rebounding, Looper coming back after his first full season as a starter, Franklin returning to starting... Seems like 1 or 2 things away from disaster... again. I don't know the solution though. Maybe it's just a fact of life for the next year or so and we have to live by our shoe-strings for 08 because that's just the reality of the situation.

by Birds on the Matt on Oct 9, 2007 11:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Round hole, square peg
Your analysis shows that Franklin would likely provide a much more cost-effective alternative to some of the pitchers who might be available through FA/trade this offseason.

But the problem is that we really need (realistically) a #3-type to slot between (2)AW and (4)Looper, while all of these options represent #4/5 types. Yes it saves money, but it doesn't necessarily solve the problem of obtaining a starter with whom you'd be comfortable using in a playoff series.

There is no decent #3-type available via FA (assuming Glavine and Pettite are not available), so the other option is a trade.

I like Duncan, but a Ludwick/Schumaker platoon in LF is good enough, and I think we could parlay Duncan and perhaps Reyes or into E. Santana/Bonser/Bonderman/insert your favorite mid-tier guy from a payroll-challenged team needing a LH bat.

by Hungry Jack on Oct 9, 2007 2:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

maybe they can add 1 good pitcher
to use your example, let's say it's bonderman. that gives the cards the following rotation:
  1. wainwright
  2. bonderman
  3. looper
  4. ???
  5. ???
who would you put into slots #4 and #5?

candidates already under contract include

franklin
mulder
thompson
reyes
wellemeyer

by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 2:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

re
#4/5 guys are interchangeable IMO, unless perhaps you are trying to develop a youngish arm. Ultimately it comes down to who can win a job in ST between Mulder, Welly, and Reyes (if he's not gone). I don't think you take Franklin out of the pen right away, because you might as well see what you have in the other guys before messing around with your 8th inning guy (I'll assume Percy goes elsewhere).

by Hungry Jack on Oct 9, 2007 9:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As I said last year
I don't buy that.

Who was our #2 in 2006?  Suppan?

If we're not gonna get a #1 pitcher, then Wainer is #1 while we bide our time until Carp comes back.  Then Carp is #1 and Wainer is #2.

And then we can get by with 2 or 3 #4/#5 type pitchers.  Just like we did in 2006.

Carp/Wainwright should certainly be good enough that we don't have to worry about the difference between a #3 and a #5 pitcher.

by sdrone on Oct 9, 2007 4:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd like to see something pursued with the Tigers.
although Bonderman gets expensive starting next season, Robertson made just over $3.2 mil last season and will probably see a raise and Verlander has to be untouchable.  I know that they've been rumored to be after a LH power bat http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/10/tigers-searchin.html.  I really think they make a great fit for Duncan...though I've heard they plan to move Guillen to first.

Any ideas?  I'd be willing to go for Robertson, but not straight up.

by cardzfanbub on Oct 9, 2007 11:21 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well to start...
What do the Cards have of value that they can reasonably part with (i.e. sure they could trade Albert, but that is not so reasonable)?

A reliable closer signed with only 1 year left on his contract (Izzy)
A plethora of talented mid-level pitchers to slot in as middle relievers or a back of the rotation starters (Franklin, Looper, Thompson, etc.)
Young, cheap, strikeout pron, outfielders (Duncan, Ankiel)
Ability to add payroll
Some expendable minor league talent

With that list, I think the Cards have the pieces available to make some trades. The question is what teams to target and how to combine the above menagerie.

Teams to Target:
Dodgers
Rockies
D-Backs
Giants
Mariners
Braves
Baltimore

by JMedwick on Oct 9, 2007 11:26 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

aside from duncan, those aren't great trade chips
only duncan might fetch us an above-avg starter who is under club control for more than 1 year. if they can work out that type of trade, i'm all in favor of it. reyes still has some trade value, but no probably not enough anymore to bring in a solid starting pitcher. if you packaged reyes / duncan, you could probably get one.

izzy's not a trade chip at all --- he's got a no-trade, and he made it clear last year he would exercise it if necessary. looper is a #5 starter making $5.5m a year on a 1-yr deal --- can't expect a lot in return for that. guys like brad thompson are a dime a dozen --- no value. and i don't see any surplus of minor-league talent either --- bryan anderson and perhaps mark hamilton (if he hits in the AFL) might make sense in the right deal, but rasmus and garcia are untouchable and the rest of our minor-leaguers aren't highly coveted.

i very much favor trading for pitching if the deal can be worked out --- but that still doesn't preclude making the wisest use of the resources on hand. we all appreciated suppan's contributions to the 2004-06 teams --- he was cheap and predictable. franklin could provide the same thing. i don't know how the cards, in their current state, can afford to pass up that kind of value when it's already in hand.

by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 11:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe the Cardinals
should follow the new Kansas City development program.  Details here.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/40823/

I love lamp

by Some witty name on Oct 9, 2007 11:53 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well Said
I have noticed that.  I keep Franklin exactly where he is for this reason.  He was very good at the set up role.  You know it's nice when he can throw the 7th & 8th then Izzy can handle the 9th.  Or Franklin gets the 7th then Izzy gets the 8th & 9th which happened a couple times.  You can get 3 innings out of the strong part of your pen.  Don't mess with a good thing.  Yes I think Franklin can start but as everyone states he is a #4 or #5.  The problem is every starter we have except Wainer is a #4 or #5 at best.  So there is no point in moving Franklin as he has excelled at the set up role.  Why mess with the part of our staff that has actually worked.  Personally it does not make a lot of sense to get yet another #4 or #5.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 10:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To be honest
It always seems that your argument was "Well, Franklin couldn't be any worse than Wellemeyer or Reyes or Wells."  While I agree with that assessment, doing it in season wouldn't have helped much.  One, Franklin had been conditioned as a reliever at that point.  The first 3-4 starts would have been pitch count affairs in order to build Franklin's arm back up.  It doesn't exactly work that you just grab a guy out of the pen, say you were a starter, so you should be able to be a normal one again.  Two, while I agree that Franklin couldn't have done much worse, I highly doubt he would have been the answer.  The team needed an ace/legit #2 to step up BADLY in May, June, and July.  Waino filled the ace role pretty nicely.  Looper was the de facto #2, but only by default.  He was hardly a legit #2 in the Jeff Suppan/Woody Williams/05 Mulder mold.  

To sum up, b/c I'm babbling at this point, Franklin would have helped, but it would have been nothing more than sticking your finger in the dike and hoping it held back the whole freakin' ocean.  It may have been a thicker, meatier finger than Wellemeyer's, but it was a finger none the less.

by redbirdnation8206 on Oct 9, 2007 10:46 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Franklin
They did what you said this year with Piniero...took him from short relief to starter. It can be done. (Not that I was in favor of it.) I would trade Franklin to a team in need of relief that has an available starter. (can anyone say "White Sox") He was lucky in the first half and teams were on him at the end of the season. Sell high! He won't be as effective next year.
How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Oct 9, 2007 2:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wellemeyer is still promising
Since coming to St. Louis, Wellemeyer has a 3.11 ERA and a 1.27 Whip.  And his numbers have improved the longer he has been here.  Since coming off the DL,  he has a 1.08 ERA and has allowed no homers.  

Wellemeyer's minor league stats are somewhat similar to Wainwright's:  Welley's stats (Wainwright's in brackets):  H9 8.59 (8.50); HR9 .68 (.68); BB9 3.98 (2.78); K9 9.57 (8.85); whip 1.40 (1.25).

Obviously the walks and whip have been problems for him, but Wainwright has also struggled with his whip, posting a 1.40 whip in 2005 in Memphis (and he had a high whip earlier this year).  Welley's whip in 2005 Iowa was 1.34 with his ERA at 3.02.

Duncan has said that he thinks the high walks have been due to coaches pushing Wellley to throw as hard as he can at the expense of control.  Once Dunc backed him down from 97 MPH to 95 MPH or lower, he has shown better control, as the lowering of his whip and ERA demonstrates.  But he still can throw high heat when he chooses to for an outpitch.  

Franklin was reportedly running out of gas (endurance) when he was moved to the pen.  Why not try the player who is younger, stronger, and who just posted a 3.11 ERA for your team?  Franklin could always come in if he failed.  

I would think this site would want to offer a chance to a younger player who has shown promise in St. Louis rather than a so-so veteran (so-so as a starter, very good as a reliever), especially given Wellemeyer's natural talent and the number of pitches he has available to him.

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 10:48 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In 242 major league innings
Todd Wellemeyer has a walk rate of 5.62.  He has some natural talent but he has no command of his pitches.  Even in STL he was walking over 4.5 batters per 9 and was getting away with it, in part,  because of his BABIP (.259).

by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 11:48 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Az
I will ask you directly - how does BABIP relate to pitchers?  It's Batting Average on Balls In Play, right?  So, once the batter puts the ball into play, how does the pitcher figure into it after that point?  Isn't it just the hitter (or the runner as he would now be) vs. the defenders?  I see how that could help evaluate a batter's skill, but what does it reveal about a pitcher?  

by cardsgirl95 on Oct 9, 2007 12:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The pitcher doesn't figure into
BABIP after the ball is in play.  What it tells you is whether pitchers have been unlucky much as it does with a batter.  When you associate BABIP with a pitcher, it's a record of what the hitters have done against them in much the same way as when you quote a pitcher's opponents' batting average.

For example, if a pitcher has a BABIP of .350 that means that when one of their pitches has been put in play, 35% of the time it went for a hit.  Unless it's a really terrible defense behind them, the hitters have been getting lucky and conversely that pitcher has been getting unlucky.

So for Wellemeyer, his .260 BABIP tels us that hitters have been unlucky about their balls in play landing for hits and Wellemeyer has been somewhat lucky.  (There's some finer points to BABIP based on batted ball data but that's the basic rule of thumb.)

by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 1:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I find Baseball Prospectus' definition helpful
BABIP is Batting Average on balls put into play. A pitcher's average on batted balls ending a plate appearance, excluding home runs. Based on the research of Voros McCracken and others, BABIP is mostly a function of a pitcher's defense and luck, rather than persistent skill. Thus, pitchers with abnormally high or low BABIPs are good bets to see their performances regress to the mean. A typical BABIP is about .290.

For a comparison:

Welley's BABIP in St. Louis is .259; Wainwright's is .315 (a little high); and Reyes' is .287 (I'm not sure that's good because he has a 6.04 ERA and a 1.41 whip--I'd think you'd want to classify him as unlucky but it looks like his BABP is classified as typical).

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 2:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Baseball Prospectus has different numbers
for Welleymeyer in St. Louis.  They have his BB9 as 4.10 and not 4.50.  The number you gave is, I believe, for the entire season.  See http://baseballprospectus.com/team_audit.php?stats&team=SLN

Wellemeyer's Vorp for the Cards ranks him as 4th for pitchers who started this year (Wainwright, Looper, Piniero, Wellemeyer) and 8th for all pitchers on the team.

Looking at Welley's improvement since working with Duncan (BB9 at 4.10 since coming to St. Louis vs. 5.62 in his major league career), it does seem that Duncan may be right about correlating an increase in control with a slight decrease in speed.  The big drop in his ERA (3.11 in St. Louis) also bolsters Duncan's view.

Welley's minor league BB9 rate is 3.98 in 506 innings.  He has been getting closer to this since working with Duncan.  And if Reyes' minor league numbers are important, then Wellemeyer's should be as well.

I agree he still needs to work on this.  But Duncan seems to be moving him in the right direction.  And to say he has no control is just over the top (especially given that you support Reyes' performance this year).  

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 12:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Welle
I really like his stuff.  He has differnet stuff compared to the other starters.  He seems to have that extra something to get balls by hitters up in the zone.  Our other starters seem to get killed up in the zone.  

I liked Welle when he was on the Cubs with that electric arm.  His only issue was control.  I a guess apparently his control is not awful.  It seems that Duncan seems to be working with him well and Welle seems like he takes to whatever role is thrown at him.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 12:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think I grabbed the aggregate
for his BB/9 rather than just STL.  

Regardless, the point stands that Wellemeyer doesn't have command of his pitches.  His drop in ERA doesn't convince me that he's a good bet going forward (because, say it with me, ERA isn't a good predictive stat).  Using 60 innings in STL as a baseline for making predictions is going to end badly.  That's the type of analysis that cost the Mariners 8M this year to sign Jeff Weaver.

I could see trying him in the pen but I saw nothing this year in either his stats or when I watched him pitch that convince me he's a major league caliber starter.  Anecdotal remarks from Duncan don't sway me a great deal because there's too much random variation in these sample sizes to substantiate whether Duncan has actually done anything.

by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 1:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Command
One of the major impacts Duncan had on Wellemeyer was having him lower his velocity to be a starter, while doing this isn't it conceivable that he gained more control as well?  I think it is very possible that he is starting to control it much better.  Here is a game by game breakdown of walks for his starts also including IP and W/L/ND(game result)
  1. 1BB 5IP W
  2. 6BB 3.2IP ND(W)
  3. 2BB 5.1IP W
  4. 2BB 3.1IP ND(W) (not sure why he was pulled here)
  5. 0BB 5IP ND(W)
  6. 3BB 6IP ND(W)
  7. 1BB 3IP L
  8. 4BB 5IP W
  9. 3BB 2IP ND(L)
  10. 1BB 5IP ND(W)
  11. 0BB 6IP ND(W)
He is streaky with his command it seems but I don't see him having too much trouble with walks when starting.

In his two stints as a reliever he had 1BB over 6.2IP and 5BB over 7.2IP while his stints starting are 19BB over 36.1 and 4BB over 13IP.  It seems to be that he might have started to figure something out though.

by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 1:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

in 11 starts
his BB/9 was over 4.  How does this show improved command?  His command sucks, there's just no way around that fact.

His command isn't streaky, it's random variation over 40-odd innings.  His command is just bad.

by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 5:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's puzzling that you don't think Welley
shows signs of increasing command when his stats are going in the right direction, yet you firmly support Reyes who has been going in the wrong direction over the last couple of years.  If you stay with Reyes' major league record, it seems that he must be injured or losing command or both.  I appreciate looking for promise in his minor league stats, but I'm asking about his major league stats because they have to do with recent trends.  It seems that recent trends favor Wellemeyer.

Reyes' whip in 2005 was .75, in 2006 it was 1.38 with a 5.06 ERA, and in 2007 it was 1.41 with a 6.04 ERA.  Reyes' VORP this year was at -6.9 vs. Wellemeyer's which was at +10.8, Pineiro's at +12.7, and Thompson's at +9.

Since Reyes' BABIP was close to average in 2006 (.284) and 2007 (2.87), doesn't that mean he's performing as expected?  How do his major league stats make him unlucky (and thus expected to change in the future) if he's so close to the typical BABIP of .290?  I admit that I'm still in the babysteps of learning about all of this, but on the face of it, this doesn't make sense to me.

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 2:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let's start by addressing this -
I appreciate looking for promise in his minor league stats, but I'm asking about his major league stats because they have to do with recent trends.  It seems that recent trends favor Wellemeyer.

- because it's factually incorrect.  There is no trend for Wellemeyer that shows he's about to breakout and become a league average starter (he's never even been a league average reliever for goodness sake).  More importantly, when Reyes has split half of 2006 & 2007 in the minors that is part of his recent history.  

Go ahead and look at Wellemeyer's "increasing command".  Given that we are examining 60 inning of him in STL (or even worse 40-ish innings as a starter) there's no reason to believe that this is truly a trend.  But even if you think there's some kind of increased trend (and the 2nd graph shows there really isn't), we're going from horrible command to slightly bad command.  This doesn't mean he's going to keep getting better.

You're asking me why I don't think Wellemeyer will develop command because it's not a trait he ever exhibited for any sustained period of time (even in the minors -- a 4 BB/9 rate is bad).

The question about Reyes is separate.  I've tempered my expectations for Reyes but the question with him is what happened to the traits he used to have rather than can he develop something he's never shown in the past (which is what you are asking with Wellemeyer).

I haven't made the "Reyes unlucky" argument in several months because his stuff has deteriorated so I don't really care if he's been lucky or unlucky when he's had this crappy 2nd hand stuff.  Reyes used to be a universally well-regarded prospect.  He has ~200 major league innings under his belt (about a full season's worth of starts) over 3 seasons where he shuffled between the majors and the minors.  Wellemeyer was never the prospect that Reyes was.  

by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 5:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The 2008 zips are important to recall
I'm claiming that Wellemeyer is one of our better options right now.  If we want to invest more in player development, this is what we have to look at.  I also think the fact that Welley's numbers have improved (and some, like his whip and era, have improved significantly since coming to St. Louis) should be encouraging in terms of how well he works with Duncan.

Maybe you should look again at DriverZn's diary on 2008 zips again (http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/story/2007/10/9/51145/2828)

That diary lists our best projected 08 rotation as the following:

 Wainwright 4.13
 Wellemeyer 4.44 (may revise up in starting only role)
 Reyes 4.65 (probably requires Duncan/TLR to be gone)
 Garcia 4.65 (if healthy)
 Looper 4.84
 Thompson 5.15
 Pinero 5.28

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 6:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As to "trends" (forgot to address that)
Hugo described this better (below) than I did when he said that Wellemeyer looks like he might be starting to figure some things out in terms of control.  Yes, that involves a small sample, but that's all you've got to look at if someone is "starting to figure out" things with Duncan during a partial season in St. Louis.  

Anyway, it's not like we have a line of great pitchers to turn to.  I would rather go with the young Wellemeyer rather than the established not very good veteran starter (Franklin).  If Welley succeeds, we have a higher payoff given his youth.  We can keep him as a starter or we can trade him before his contract expires.  If he doesn't do well, we can turn to Franklin.  We don't have much invested in Wellemeyer and no one would really put up a fuss if he didn't work out and were taken out of the rotation.

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 6:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the ZiPS projection is
for Wellemeyer as primarily a reliever.  Add about 25% to the ERA if you want to get a rough estimate as to what he would do if truly utilized as a starter.

Can it really be a trend if it's isolated to a small sample size where we can't discern whether it's even noise or not?  I don't think you're properly accounting for random variation when you are looking at 40-innings.  His command is awful -- I don't understand how you can even begin to refute that.

"We have a higher payoff given his youth" -- he's going to be 29.  He's not young.  You could argue that he's cost controlled but his upside is, at best, a fringe starter.  Franklin's proven that he can do that.

by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 6:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, I agree with DriverZn's rotation list below
where he places Wellemeyer in the number #2 rotation spot (given the limits of what we have to work with now) and admits that it's a gamble.  I did think it was interesting that he said that the BB/9 rate is one of the few stats that can improve with age.  He places Franklin in the #6 spot and that sounds right as well.  I'd even agree that Reyes should be rested and given a (short) chance next spring to see if he's gotten things back together again.  But if Duncan is back, it may be better to trade him for his own good.  

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 7:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Its a longshot
But when I think of pitchers that were wild young and then learned control.  Its a much longer list than pitchers like franklin that were lackign stuff and somehow found it.

Ryan cut his walk rate by about 35% right after his 30th birthday.  There are quite a few other power pitchers that have suddenly found control late.

I don't think he will be great, good is even a stretch, but show me a better in house option?

by DriverZn on Oct 9, 2007 7:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we've got an apples / oranges problem here
franklin has little chance to be a useful #2 pitcher, but (in my opinion) a very good chance to be a reliable #4 --- and this team needs a reliable #4 pitcher.

thompson, wellemeyer, and (at this point) even reyes have lower odds of being that useful #4 than franklin does.

i will grant that wellemeyer has a better chance of being a #2 than franklin, because wellemeyer has better stuff. but

we agree that wellemeyer's chances of being a #2 pitcher are pretty negiligible --- and i think you agree that welley's chances of being a #4 are worse than franklin's, too. franklin at least has established that he can pitch at that level; in welley's case, the idea is purely speculative.

it's like we're comparing mark mccormick and jaime garcia. mccormick was a #1 draft pick, and he's got a 100 mph fastball, so if he could ever learn to control it he'd be an ace pitcher --- but there's a high probability he'll never be useful in any form. the same goes for wellemeyer. garcia was a 22d-rounder and he has an ok fastball and a nice array of complementary pitchers. his odds of being an ace are far lower than mccormick's, but his odds of being useful in some capacity are higher.

that's franklin. i think there's a high probability that he can be useful in some capacity as a starter --- with wellemeyer, there's a sliver of a chance that he'll put it all together and become dave stewart, but a very good chance that he'll be completely useless.

by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 10:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I see your point, but
I don't see 08 as a play it safe year.  In my view playing is safe lands us 3rd place.  I don't see where we get real SP talent to fill in the #1-#3 slots.  We have a #2 and a big pile of 4/5 guys.  

Wainwright can fill in at #1, but we need a breakout performance from someone to fill that #2 slot.  The only candidates we currently have for a breakout are Reyes and Wellemeyer.  Either one could blow up, step up, or just end up being the #4 franklin projects to be.

If we land someone like Tejada or Rasmus pulls a Pujols in spring then we can win with Adam and the happy #4s.  However, if we are not going to be slugging our way to wins we need a breakout pitching performance from someone.

by DriverZn on Oct 9, 2007 11:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i just don't see w'meyer as a breakout candidate
can you think of any examples of a guy who, through age 28, had a career era of 4.98 and only 11 career starts . . . . and then became a frontline starter? i can't think of a single example. al leiter is the closest i can come up with, but he'd made 55 starts by age 28 and had thrown nearly twice as many innings as w'meyer --- similar high walk ratio (5.3 per 9), comparable era (4.75). rick helling was vaguely similar, but his bb/9 wasn't nearly as bad, his era was better, and he was a starter throughout his career. dave stewart was a late bloomer, but he had good success in his early 20s, then troughed, then rebounded . . . . .

obviously anything can happen, but i just can't take welly seriously as a breakout candidate. the odds are too low.

carpenter is due back in august; there's your likeliest breakout pitcher. instead of taking a wild shot on wellemeyer or reyes that has a very high chance of complete failure, i'd assemble a safe, stable rotation and try to keep the team at .500 until carp gets back, then hope for a late run.

no matter what they do, they're probably looking at 3d place. remember, they were minus 104 in run differential; they have to improve by 104 runs just to get back to .500. for a bit of context, between 2003 (85 wins) and 2004 (105 wins), they improved by 116 runs --- even if the cards have an improvement of that magnitude next year, they're still just a .500 team.

by lboros on Oct 10, 2007 12:40 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just to clarify
Wellemeyer was a starter until 2005 in the minor leagues so he has not always been a reliever.  Franklin also has not been a starter since 2005.  Wellemeyer's 11 starts since 2005 are, I guess, 11 more than Franklin has had since 2005.

If we are looking at 3rd place, then why take the very cautious, known 5.00 veteran starter route?  You said yourself that Wellemeyer had a better chance of being a #2 or 3 starter than Franklin.  Since we can fall back on Franklin if Welley fails, I'd rather see if Duncan can continue to improve Welley's performance, as he seems to have this year.  Plus, DriverZn made a good case about BB9 ratios and age, which also tilts in Welley's favor.  

The risk in taking Franklin out of the pen is that we lose our set-up man, he returns to his bad stats as a starter, and he does not come back to being as good of a reliever after that.  

The risk in developing Wellemeyer is zip--see how he does in spring training and go from there.  The risk is really not high at all.  Either he performs well or he doesn't.  

by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 1:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nycardfan, can you name a single example
in baseball history of a player who had wellemeyer's career profile --- fewer than 20 big-league starts through age 28, with a career era of about 5.00 and a career-long pattern of control problems --- who went on to become a good pitcher?

i can't find one, and i've looked. if you can show me even one precedent, the wellemeyer project might seem a little less like a million-to-one shot.

by lboros on Oct 10, 2007 12:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bob Gibson provides a good example for DriverZn's
point that BB9 performances can significantly improve as one ages (especially as a pitcher gets closer to 30).  DriverZn also gave you the example of Franklin who improved by 30-35 % in the BB9 category around the age of 30 (I'm going on memory with those last numbers for Franklin).  

1959 (23)  4.64 BB9, 1.58 Whip
1960 (24)  4.98 BB9, 1.67 Whip
1961 (25)  5.07 BB9, 1.44 Whip
1962 (26)  3.66 BB9, 1.15 Whip
1963 (27)  3.39 BB9, 1.26 Whip
1964 (28)  2.69 BB9, 1.17 Whip
1965 (29)  3.10 BB9, 1.16 Whip
1966 (30)  2.50 BB9, 1.03 Whip
1967 (31)  2.05 BB9, 1.16 Whip
1968 (32)  1.83 BB9; .85 Whip

Gibson has a big drop in his BB9 at age 28 and 30-32.  Also, he stays in the mid to upper 2.00 BB9 range until he's 38.  And don't jump to the conclusion that I'm saying Welley is Gibson.  This is simply a good example of age and BB9 rates.

I'm not getting into the particulars of matching number of innings as a starter in the majors, etc., because Duncan operates differently than any other coach I can think of.  I don't know any coaches who would be able to (or want to) convert converted relievers back into starters so there is no statistical pool to provide that specific of a comparison.  

by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 3:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

last paragraph is a copout
when the looper experiment was annonced, i found a number of examples of relievers being converted into starters, good bad and ugly.

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/story/2006/12/18/82328/316

duncan's not as special as you suggest --- good pitching coach, but it's not as if he possesses unique skills or ideas that separate him from all other pitching coaches.

again --- i have looked for precedents that are comparable to welley, and i can't find one. i take it that you can't find one either. that doesn't mean it can't happen --- but it does mean that a degree of skepticism might be in order.

by lboros on Oct 10, 2007 6:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the people you are comparing to Looper
were relievers in the minors and then became starters in the majors.  I'm not sure how that thread is helpful in analyzing Welley who was a starter in the minors.  But let's do give this a rest.

by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 6:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We are in unknown territory
I make no claim to know what will happen.  Just I have a good idea what will happen with the bad options so I am willing to take a chance.

by DriverZn on Oct 10, 2007 4:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Obviously, I agree...
I don't see the downside of rolling the dice here (if we are considering the options we have under our control right now).  Also, as I said before. the risks seem higher in removing Franklin from a proven successful role as a set-up man when he has a proven to be a very iffy starter.  Giving Welley a chance to demonstrate whether his improvements in St. Louis are a fluke or not does not seem risky.  He can be removed at any time.

by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 4:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One last clarification
Wellemeyer's 11 starts helped bring about his improved stats with the Cards:  3.11 ERA, 1.27 Whip, 7.21 SO9, and 4.10 BB9 (all his numbers from St. Louis are much better than the ones you listed above).  If it's a longshot, I still don't think we have much to lose.  If Duncan can keep improving his numbers, I'd like to see what he can do with his "stuff."  And wouldn't it be fun to see someone pitch differently than the Cardinal norm?

by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 2:24 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree
I also find it odd that 4.1 BB9 is a major problem but our Aces 3.1 BB9 isn't.  I am not saying Adam isn't good.  Just no one complains about his average control since he produces.

Does anyone have a way to quantify how pitchers walk rates change going from relief to starting?  I ask because I often hear about some pitchers needing time to "settle in" during a start.  They show control problem early in the game then pull it together.  Wainwright has done this a number of times this year.  If Wellemeyer is prone to similar issues they would have distorted his numbers as a reliever.

by DriverZn on Oct 10, 2007 3:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

come on Zn, we both know that 4.1 bb/9 is not
a true gauge of wellemeyer's ability. that's what he posted over a sample of ~45 innings. his career bb/9 is is 5.6 bb/9, and his season-by-season figures are 6.2, 7.4, 6.1, 5.7, and 4.5.

i'm all in favor of trying to reap upside, but is wellemeyer's upside as a starting pitcher greater than anthony reyes'? and if so, based on what --- 45 decent innings by wellemeyer?

that's pretty much welley's entire brief at this point --- as of may 2007 he was a failed player, cut loose by one of the worst teams in baseball. and now, 45 moderately good innings later, he's suddenly a reasonable bet to emerge as a front-line starting pitcher? i don't buy it, and i'm not aware of any precedent for it.

by lboros on Oct 10, 2007 12:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Those 11 starts with St. Louis correlate
with Welley's minor league stats.  He has a 3.98 BB9 rate in 506 IP.  Welley's last year as a starter (2005), he had a 3.02 ERA and a 4.19 BB9.  Again, his performance that year is in line with his performance in St. Louis.

If we start looking at major league stats in isolation, llboros, then I don't see how Reyes wins any argument.  You have to take into consideration his minor league stats to remain optimistic about his future.  

Reyes' career major league stats: 206 IP, 5.42 ERA, 3.54 BB9, 1.35 Whip.  

by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 4:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no
the 11 starts walk rate doesn't "correlate" well with his minor league statistics because you have to translate them to MLEs.  A walk rate of 4 in the minors is much higher translated to the majors.

by azruavatar on Oct 10, 2007 6:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Reyes had 11 starts this year that correlated
with his minor league stats, but did not match well with his career major league stats, wouldn't you take those 11 successful starts seriously and as indicative of possible future performances?  

I would think if Reyes started to lower some of his high major league stats, including this year's 1.41 whip, 3.61 BB9 rate, and 6.04 ERA, you would not object to correlating those changes to his minor league performances, at least in some manner.  Granted, you might make adjustments.  But I would expect that you would see a return to a pattern, not some arbitrary blip.

I think there's some question about double standards being applied, deciding which zips are valid or not valid for which players, and which minor league stats are valid or not valid in assessing which major league performances.

by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 6:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, no, no
you are proposing statistical analysis that goes against some of the most fundamental rules.  
  1. 11 starts is not enough to make any kind of prediction on.
  2. Using a small sample to prove a thesis while ignoring the rest of the dataset is WRONG.
  3. Stop using the word correlating.  It doesn't mean what you apparently think it means.  
I'm not using a double standard when looking at those ZiPS.  I clarified why you can't take Wellemeyer's projection as a starter.  There's research that shows the reliever -> starter transition adds around 25% to the relievers ERA.  Even adding about 10~15% to Wellemeyer gives you an ERA over 5.

Same goes for the minor league stats.  I know how to weight them and evaluate them.  Reyes struck a comparable number of batters to Wellemyer but walked 3 FEWER BB/9.  It's not about the validity of minor league statistics that the discrepancy is occurring; it's the evaluation of them at all.  Wellemeyer strikes out a good number of batters but he has absolutely no command of any of his pitches.  I just don't see any likelihood of him becoming a dependable starter.  He hasn't even shown he can be a dependable reliever for an entire season.

by azruavatar on Oct 10, 2007 6:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've made no prediction or thesis, just agreed
that Welley is worth a gamble based on his recent and past numbers, and that he may be showing signs of improvement under Duncan that are worth pursuing.  I've said he's a low risk experiment.  

Since there are other posters who are statistically knowledgeable who agree with this, I'm assuming that there's room for disagreement on rough assessments about our limited possibilities for starters.  

by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 7:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

reyes' numbers aren't very good
but they're still better than wellemeyer's. reyes has a lower walk rate and a lower whip, and his while his era is slightly higher, you have to factor in that wellemeyer has pitched mainly in relief --- an easier role than starting pitching. nate silver's rule of thumb is that you add about 25 percent to a reliever's era, when projecting what they might do as a starting pitcher. that gibes with what we saw in st louis this year --- the two bullpenners who moved into the rotation (wainwright and looper) saw their ERA's rise about 25 percent each.

add 25 percent to wellemeyer's career era, and you're looking at something north of 6.00.

nycard, you're persuaded that todd wellemeyer is a bona fide candidate for the rotation next year. i'm not. let's leave it at that. we're arguing in circles, as per usual. tiresome.

by lboros on Oct 10, 2007 6:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

2007 vs. 2006 numbers
Reyes' are going down and Welley's up so their career numbers don't tell the whole story.  I've said Welley is worth a gamble given our limited choices under our control now.  Good idea to agree to disagree about him as well as about whether Franklin should be a starter.

by nycardfan on Oct 10, 2007 6:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This season though?
I think it may be worth a shot for no reason other than it would save money and allow them to go get another pitcher via trade/FA/whatever.  They need help in the middle of the rotation, and need it badly.  Anything that makes that happen is fine in my book, even if it means having Franklin battle for the #4/#5 spot with basically everyone else.  

by redbirdnation8206 on Oct 9, 2007 10:48 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No Worries
a rotation of:

Wainman
Piniero
Fruit Loop
FA/Trade
internal solution

 With Carp at the trade dead line or mid August isn't really that bad. I am not counting on Mulder at all. Lets say Reyes, Stavinoha and/or Bozied get offered for Garland or Willis.

 Then Welle, Franklin, TJ, and Thompson compete for the 5 spot. It is not a horrible place to be.

 I still like the idea of trying to get a ss/3b prospect for Thompson. We need depth behind Rolen/Ryan.

by nybirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 10:51 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Thompson doesn't start for us
I would definitely like to trade him, both for his and for our benefit.  

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 10:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Garland and Vazquez
I like Garland and Vazquez for the White Sox.  I think both are very good and could easily be our #1 or #2 starter in a heartbeat.

We do need to figure out how to get a #2 starter no matter if Tony goes or stays.

Funny Side note about managers playing youth.  A lot of people on this site talked about how Tony does not play youth and Lou does.  There is grumbling in Cub land that Lou Pinella does not do a good job with young guys.  They say he is too hard on them and stunts their development.  The person everyone brings up in Felix Pie.  They say he was progressing at every level until the met up with Lou.  Since being with Lou his demeanor and play has changed for the worse.  Steve Stone put it this way, Felix Pie did not play because he did not hit.  Stone basically threw out the managers good with young guys myth.  It comes down to guys producing.  Felix Pie would play if he hit at all.  Stone pointed out the Magers like Bob Melvin play youth because that is the organizational trend, they have all young guys.  It's not like he gets to chose between playing a vet or a young guy, the Dbacks don't have a stock pile of vets.

Just an interesting note about playing youth.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 11:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually Lou DID play him
as a defensive replacement in late innings, once the Cubs had a lead.

I don't get why people like Vasquez.  I just don't.  Has trouble going 6, etc.

by sdrone on Oct 9, 2007 11:26 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Vazquez
I am not in love with the guy.  He is not a #1 but he would be a #2 on the Cardinals even if he pitched blind folded.

10 seasons
206 innings/season
54 walks/season
182 so/season
32 starts/season
2 CG/season
4.28 career ERA
He had 15 wins on a team worse than the Cardinals.  Now in my opinion wins do have some luck involved but he was 15-8 with a 3.74 ERA this year.  HE was pretty good.

That is the problem Cubs fans have with PIE.  HE was their Rasmus!  They did not want him sticking around to sit the bench and just play defense.  The feeling is his hitting took many steps back this season under Lou.  He just did not get enough game experience.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 12:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

TJ?
who is that? not tyler johnson(??)

by willievinceterry on Oct 9, 2007 6:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yep
Read at the start of this thread about his starting career.

by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 6:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't see Wainer as a counter-argument
He was a starter who subbed for us in an emergency.  

If Kinney is healthy, I'd certainly give Franklin a tryout.   I REALLY want that 8th inning guy to be solid, but we're obviously desperate for starters.  And Franklin seems to have a great attitude for doing whatever it takes.

by sdrone on Oct 9, 2007 11:02 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Franklin in Philly
     I don't have the stats to back this up, but Franklin's problems as a starter in Philly and Cincy seemed to be with his second time through a lineup, when he'd get lit up, especially with the long ball.  I know both of those parks are bandboxes, but I also heard he had the same problem in Seattle. Using him as a setup man eliminates the second-time through problem and may be the only way to get meaningful production from him.
     Just a thought.

by vinniefromjersey on Oct 9, 2007 11:09 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

franklin didn't start in cincy / philly
all his starts came as a member of the mariners.

your question is a valid one. i'm checking franklin's career splits . . . . . when facing opposing hitters for the 1st time in a game (this includes both his starts and his relief appearances), he yields an ops of .763. 2d time through the order (mostly starts), .732. 3d time through the order (entirely starts), .802.

there is a dropoff 3d time through the order, but nothing out of the ordinary. most pitchers drop off. wainwright this year, e.g., had a .601 ops allowed the 1st time through the order, but an .835 ops the 3d time through --- ie, higher than franklin's career ops the 3d time through.

this is meant not to suggest (obviously) that franklin is as good as wainwright. i'm just spot-checking. i don't see any evidence that franklin has trouble stretching out as a starter.

by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 12:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hijack
Courtesy of the NY Daily News, LaRussa's name already being thrown out there.  They like recycled Cardinals managers don't they!
"...but If I can do some damage and help my team win, I'm going to stay in there" -Albert

by BigMOman on Oct 9, 2007 11:42 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

TLR
I just cant see him wanting to manage in NYC at this time in his career. He has nothing to prove and he has two WS rings already.  There is really nothing left to prove and the media/stress will be way too high for him at this point.

I don't think TLR is stupid enough to go to NYC at this time.  If I were a Yankee fan I would not want TLR managing my team.  He is just the wrong direction at this point considering he is 62 and will not be a long term solution.

He is a great manager but I would think the Yankees would want someone more longterm and set on building things up again, as it looks like they have a good core of young guys mixed in with ARod and Jeter.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 12:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

New York Post says TLR isn't interested
in the Yankees job, according to sources close to the ballclub.  They said TLR has made this known to the Yankees.  So I guess it's a battle betweeen newspapers as to whether TLR is interested or not.

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 12:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah saw that too...
at first I thought Tony to the Yanks would be a no brainer...but the more I think about it now...I agree that he is less than likely to want to subject himself to the pressures of that particular job.  He could hardly put up with the STL press, so I can't see him dealing with the NY guys on a regular basis...  
 Out here in L.A, there is still some talk of Seattle being a possibility for Him...but I think unless Tony wants to sit a year and wait for some better opportunity to arise ( Dodgers mid-season perhaps?) His most likely choice will be to return to the Cards.

by Timbo02 on Oct 9, 2007 1:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The impression
that I get from afar is that the NY Post is a legit newspaper and the NY Daily News is a "rag".  So I would tend to give more credance to what the Post says.  But what would you, as a resident of NY, say?    

by cardsgirl95 on Oct 9, 2007 1:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rather
give more "credence" to what the Post says.  Blasted typos!

by cardsgirl95 on Oct 9, 2007 1:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Post
The NY Post is a struggling paper that loses money on every issue.  The only reason they exist is so Murdoch has a right wing newspaper in NY to counter the Times.  That being said it is a quality publication from everything I have seen, though I am uncertain on their sports coverage quality but it seems at least on this it jives with what Bernie is hearing.

by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 1:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hilarious
I would become an instant Yankee fan just to watch LaRussa try to deal with the NY media. Imagine Mrs. LaRussa's thoughts about her husband being "unjustly criticized" by that nasty old STL media compared to those sharks in NYC. He would have been grilled everyday about every decision and that DUI charge would never go away. Batting the pitcher 8th in NY...never. This guy snaps off an angry comment when Joel Goldberg lobs a softball at him. After a 5 game losing streak in NY, they would be making DUI posters and ones showing dogs being tortured. And all of that doesn't even cover dealing with George.

Tony, I hope you stay, but if you leave...going to the big apple is the worst choice for someone with your personality.

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Oct 9, 2007 2:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not to mention...
If he thinks Dewitt's meddling too much with baseball operations...

by liam on Oct 9, 2007 2:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not to say it won't happen
But if it does, he'll most definitely be wearing a Cardinals uni on his bust in Cooperstown.

by liam on Oct 9, 2007 2:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're right
The pitcher would never bat 8th in NY.

In fact he wouldn't bat at all.  Except in interleague games.

by stl tyler on Oct 9, 2007 5:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bernie on TLR
I've noticed Bernie always loves to drop little "hints" that usually pan out to something.  
Just this morning on the stltoday blog:

The smart money is now on TLR returning to the Cardinals...

--B

"Baseball is the only field of endeavor where a man can succeed three times out of ten and be considered a good performer." - Ted Williams

by WiscCard on Oct 9, 2007 12:30 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Backed up with alittle sourcing
If last week two of La Russa's closest friends tell me he's bummed out, and looking to leave ... and now they are saying after he thought it over, he realized this is still the best situation for him, and he's coming to peace with it.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 2:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ESPNNEWS
just reported Insiders saying TLR is interested in NY and would take Dunc...not sure if thats exactly the same rumor as above, but it might be.

and on the Herd he was pushing hard for it said he'd lead the campaign..not that that means anything

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Oct 9, 2007 3:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's interesting
but TLR has said he hates (well really dislikes) ESPN so I'm not sure how chummy he'd be with anyone there.  Maybe someone with the Yankees would be a good source, however, since ESPN is so East Coast obsessed.

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 4:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Herd...
I wouldn't take anything Cowherd says seriously.  First, he claims to be a Yankee fan(yeah, right; more like bandwagon jumping), then as soon as they start to falter, he practically trips over himself backpedaling. He didn't get the nickname "Shrutebag" for nothing, ya know...
 He's made no secret as to thinking NL baseball is a joke, calling it "JV baseball",  plus he's taken every opportunity to rip La Russa for being labeled a "genius".  

by cardsrul on Oct 9, 2007 7:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ya today he was
pushing the "genious". Never heard him Praise the Yanks but has a love affair for Jeter. I'm not big on the guy but love the daily football fix...wish i heard it more where he gets updates from cities..
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Oct 9, 2007 11:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thoughts...
i like the idea of franklin in the rotation, but with a few big "ifs"

first, if springer comes back
second, if percy comes back for at least part of the season
third, if kinney comes back healthy

now i am not saying you would need all of these, but add wellemeyer to the bullpen, and hope for 2 of the 4, and imho, that would replace franklin

another thing about franklin, those 04-05 years, how much different would they have been in the national league with that pitcher batting? if you figure that in, it makes your argument even better

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 9, 2007 12:45 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well..
you'd probably at least need the first condition to be met ;-)
"...but If I can do some damage and help my team win, I'm going to stay in there" -Albert

by BigMOman on Oct 9, 2007 12:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hardballtimes article explains
why Franklin would be a bad choice.  This is from 2006 and is very informative.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/daily-graphing-ryan-franklin/

It's ironic that people are advocating that we should use a not very good veteran who is in his late 30's over younger prospects who have performed well enough this year to be a 4th or 5th starter (Wellemeyer and Thompson).  

Read the Hardball Times article for their assessment of Franklin.  He's a great reliever.  Let's just leave him there.

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 12:56 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thanks
That just supports my if it ain't broke don't fix it theory.

You were just better than me and provided some stats/research citing an article.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 1:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

todd wellemeyer has 11 career starts
and he averaged just over 4 innings per start. that's a tiny sample size, no sort of track record on which you can form any sort of reliable projection. the one thing we do know about wellemeyer (as AZ pointed out above) is that he walks too many guys, and has throughout his career.

thompson has 18 career big-league starts and has averaged just over 5 innings in them, with an ops-against of .863 --- a far sight worse than kip wells. his upside is as a 5th starter, ie ryan franklin. his downside is considerably lower than that.

ryan franklin has 106 career starts, including 3 full seasons as a starting pitcher. he was very consistent in those 3 seasons. he's a known quantity, far less likely than wellemeyer or thompson to be a complete bust.

by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 1:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So you disagree with Hardball Times
and their negative analysis of Franklin's career before coming to St. Louis as a reliever?  In what ways did they fail to give an objective assessment of his talents and whether he would be a good starting pitcher?  

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 2:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i occasionally write for hardball times
i wrote the st louis section in the 2007 preseason annual, will be doing same for the 2008 annual.

i've corresponded several times with the author of that article, david appelman, who (like me) is a freelance contributor the site. he gave an objective analysis in that article; i simply think more of franklin more than he does. he doesn't do anything special, but in my opinion franklin can be useful as rotation thickener. he avoids walks and has a consistenly low BABIP, and he put up tolerable numbers for terrible teams in seattle. when the cards signed him back in january, i figured he would do well with a better team behind him, and in a league that didn't feature the dh. i applauded the move (http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/story/2007/1/11/92136/0370), and sure enough he was a valuable pickup.

differences of opinion always exist among baseball analysts. david and i have disagreed before, and will disagree again. and i don't even know that we're specifically disagreeing here; that's a 2-year-old article. since it came out, franklin has established that he can pitch effectively in the nl. maybe david's opinion has changed.

by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 3:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it is 2 years old but that shouldn't matter
because Hardball Times is looking at Franklin's record as a starter and he hasn't been a starter since that time.  His only record since 2005 is as a reliever.  

I appreciate your having a better opinion of Franklin since he came to St. Louis and I accept that as valid.  But similar arguments based on new contexts (such as shifting to the NL), or developing better skills, should be accepted for others as well, such as Wellemeyer.

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 3:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i had a better opinion of franklin
before he came to st louis. before he had ever thrown a pitch for the cards, i thought he was a good pickup and might thrive for the cardinals, even though many sources (such as THT) thought otherwise.

by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 3:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One last thing, I'm not sure consistency is a plus
when in his final two years as a starter, Franklin posted a 5.10 ERA (2005) and a 4.90 ERA (2004).  There's a reason why he became a reliever.  His win/loss record sounds downright Wellsian (8-15 in 2005, 4-16 in 2006) and I expect the Mariners had better offense than Wells or Reyes had.

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 3:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

there are stats behind all those losses
as you saw in the Harball Times article.  I didn't think I needed to trot those arguments out again.

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 3:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the hardball times article didn't say
that 4-16 and 8-15 were true and fair representations of franklin's pitching. the article said, correctly, that he's a pitcher of limited abilities. i acknowledge those limitations. i still think he can help the cardinals.

by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 3:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ryan franklin is a roids user
and destroyed our national innocence and national pasttime

its likely that his example motivated 10,000 kids to use steroids, 9,000 of which now lay dead

i'm stunned you would even consider this LB

www.royalsreview.com

by royalsreview on Oct 9, 2007 1:52 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

satire alert
will of royals review is anti-witch-hunt, and this is a running parody of his . . .

franklin got caught, owned up, and served his penalty. as long as he stays clean moving forward, he's ok w/ me.

by lboros on Oct 9, 2007 2:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Harsh and dangerous words my friend...
I don't think it a good idea to be throwing around accusations like that without the least bit of evidence or proof....do you?

by Timbo02 on Oct 9, 2007 2:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah Timbo...he WAS.
Wikipedia: "On August 2, 2005, Franklin became the eighth Major League player, and second Mariner, to test positive for steroid use. He received a ten day suspension.[1]

Franklin was a member of the gold medal winning US baseball team at the 2000 Olympics, where he had a 3-0 pitching record in 4 appearances."

Still, his statement about influencing 10,000 kids / 9,000 dead is laughable.

It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Oct 9, 2007 2:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I stand corrected...
Thanks GB....didn't know that. ....but the rest of that post is ...well as we used to say .. " A doozy"...

by Timbo02 on Oct 9, 2007 2:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

w-wh-what?!
Ryan Franklin bears partial responsibility for 9,000 dead kids?  He's a regular Pol Pot.
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Oct 9, 2007 2:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm with RoyalsReview
Just 3 years ago, I saw the success Ryan Franklin had in growing the half beard-half goat and said to myself "If I were a real man, I'd have one of those too".

I began a 2 year cycle of stanozolol in hopes of growing a stronger, thicker facial hair.

Now, I find myself waking up with leaking nipples, blood when I urinate and the ability to crush small domesticated animals with my bare hands.  Luckily, I have the urge to eat them raw afterwards...so atleast I'm not wasteful.

Ryan Franklin stole my youth.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 2:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My facial hair has experienced things
mere mortal men only fantasize of.

I lost my innocence by achieved machismo and virility....in my facial hair.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 2:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have nothing to add
I just like to chime in whenever beards are mentioned.

Nipples on the other hand...

by effin fisk on Oct 9, 2007 3:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh to reminisce!
On my long-lost dry-nippled youth...

by liam on Oct 9, 2007 2:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

BTW
Mather was shifted to DH before game time.  I think since he is now considered an OF on their roster it might have been needed so the old DH is now playing 1B.

by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 3:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lets roll the dice in 2008
Lets face it, the projections all say its going to be ugly.  There really isn't proven talent to be had at a reasonable price for SP.  Everyone needs it, including us so the price is very high.

We have other needs.  SS and 2B.  If we have chips to more (relief, OF) that is where I would spend them.  

As to pitching here is how I view it.

#1 Wainwright (moves to #2 if carp makes it back before the end of 08, and we are in contention)

Thats where the "known good" list ends.  Now we start rolling the dice.

#2 Wellemeyer: BB/9 is one of the few rate stats that often improve with age.  I am willing to gamble that this year may have shown a new level of performance.  Its a big gamble but we are not going anywhere in 08 unless we get some positive surprises.

#3 Looper

#4 Reyes: With qualifications.  First I would make sure he isn't throwing or practicing in the offseason.  Rest and get his legs in shape.  Its sink or swim time next year and if he fails after 10 or so starts, grab #6 off this list and replace him.  Keep duncan away from the guy.

#5 Thompson:  Limited upside, limited downside.  Cheap.

#6 Franklin: He just doesn't seem to have any + pitch that can be used to get hitters out once they have seen him a few times.  I think he is better in relief than starting.  But when plan A fails....

CL: Izzy
Setup 1: Springer

Setup 2: Mulder  His "new" delivery puts incredible strain on his shoulder.  Each time out he looked good for 1-2 IP and then fell apart.  If he can throw 1IP of his 90+ stuff then he can be a very effective relief pitcher.  Getting something out of him is better than a few starts and back to the DL.  

by DriverZn on Oct 9, 2007 3:49 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wells
Why doesn't anyone consider moving Wells to the closer roll?  (I am being half serious here) Izzy wasn't that great as a starter and is now a good closer I think Kip could follow the same career path and probably should.

by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 3:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's an interesting question
we know he has a lot of different out-pitches, including a 95 mph fastball with movement.

It seemed like he did well in the first 3 or 4 innings and fell apart later, but I haven't looked at his games by inning.  He also was able to get out of a lot of jams safely in the last half of the year so I'm not sure his problem was with nerves.  

Still, since he was such an enigma, I'm not sure I'd want to depend on him to save anything.  I'd rather have someone else experiment with him first.

The Cards may have approached Wells to be a long reliever because he said at the end of the seeason that that would be his safest route, but he had decided to test the waters again for starting pitching.

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 4:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Would you re-sign him?
If it was a $750K flyer or something, I'd consider a contract.  But I just can't see why I would want him.

by Valatan on Oct 9, 2007 4:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes
We need to patchwork things together for the next couple years.  At something less than a million per and two years.  

by BigJawnMize on Oct 9, 2007 4:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As a reliever
He is worth 1-2M. Do you think he would take that pay cut?  If yes, its tempting.

by DriverZn on Oct 9, 2007 4:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm thinking that
it's extremely unlikely that he takes that pay cut.    Considering that there are no really good upgrades in this year's FA class, i can see him getting a 3 year/$15M contract.

by Valatan on Oct 9, 2007 5:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that GM should be fired
anyone that gives wells more than a year is crazy.  I think he's going to have to settle for a paycut despite the alleged pitching shortage.  It's hard to overlook how truly awful he was this year.

by azruavatar on Oct 9, 2007 5:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We saw little but stupid deals
that deserved to get GMs fired last season.  I can see scarcity making it even worse this season.  Unless, of course, people look around and realize how horrible everyone got screwed with deals last offseason.

by Valatan on Oct 9, 2007 5:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can't deny that I'm somewhat giddy
to see all of Hendry's moves bite him this year.  He overpaid for Soriano, comitted money to Aramis and his balky wrist, Ted Lilly can't possibly be a Top 5 pitcher again and Marquis was showing exactly what he was in the second half.

If Lee gets healthy another year away from the wrist injury and Zambrano pitches to his capabilities, they should be able to maintain their current level.  But, if they don't get ridculously hot play out of the Jacque Jones of the world, there is a team that could see a 10-15 win dropoff from the year before.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 5:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wells is too much of a headcase
to ever be a closer.

by willievinceterry on Oct 9, 2007 6:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I Disagree
I don't know what Wells' problem is, and Dave Duncan couldn't figure it out in a year of work. But the dude's a talented pitcher.

His stuff is too good for him to not succeed in some role. I could see him being a nasty closer, and as long as he's not a non-cardinal in the NL Central, I'll celebrate every out.

by liam on Oct 9, 2007 10:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Word!
I can't be too down on your ideas.

"Its a big gamble but we are not going anywhere in 08 unless we get some positive surprises"

That pretty much best describes our pitching situation.  No one is really a better option than the next guy when discussing a bunch of #4/#5 starters.  But someone will have to step up/get lucky for our team to have a chance.  Why can't we get a Lilly/Marquis performance out of someone?

The pitching will definitely be interesting next year.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 4:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

MIddle Infield
I say we let David go.  Why sign a guy for $7 Million for one year.  We can save about $6.5 Million by just letting Ryan play.  Then in 2009 we go after a SS.

I say we try to get rid of Adam Kennedy.  We will lose out but at least have a team eat half his contract.  

Then in 09 we can see how or farm system looks for MI players or the FA market.

Like the Idea of getting rid of the Angels Connection?

by ICbirdfan on Oct 9, 2007 4:16 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There's no way
Any team eats half of Kennedy's contract.

by stl tyler on Oct 9, 2007 5:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Joe Mather
So far Mather is 2-2 with 2 soft singles one a bloop into RF and the other a soft grounder to the SS that he beat out, he also has 1 SB so far.  I hope he starts hitting the ball hard but so far it has been a good day for him.

by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 4:30 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Joe Strauss - TLR
Joe has an interview up with Tony in which Tony has informed Bill DeWitt that he won't comitt to the Cardinals managerial job until DeWitt hires a GM and that GM approves of LaRussa remaining manager.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 4:44 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

HAHAHAH
Keeps the drama going, but of course it makes sense.  Why commit if you don't know who your boss will be?

by sdrone on Oct 9, 2007 4:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It does make sense
and sounds best for the organization--we don't want more discord down the road.  I'm hoping it will force DeWitt to pick up the pace on the GM search.  TLR is right that we have lots of business to attend to and it would be best for the permanent GM to make as many of those decisions as possible.

I wonder what DeWitt's next move is?

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 4:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

so if the new GM approves
he is basically saying he will be back.  It would be the lowest of low to back out after the new GM approves that he will keep Tony.  At first I thought he was just buying time, but he paints himself into a corner unless he doesn't think the new GM would want him.
"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Oct 9, 2007 4:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think he can always play the
what's good for the organization card if he thinks he can't get along with the GM.  This way, at least, TLR hasn't forced himself into a situation that may cause conflict with an unknown GM.  On the other hand, TLR will be forcing a new GM to make a statement one way or another as to whether he trusts him with the team.  If he says no, that's a pretty high profile decision to make when the new GM is first being introduced to Cards' fans.  If he says yes, then TLR has secured power as the manager.

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 5:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but he did say
he would move up the decision as long as all the candidates wish for him to stay.  He loses that power and leverage unless he is to say, I can't work with any of these guys.  I think it's as simple as he really wants to come back but he is testing DeWitt to see if he really wants him back or he just can't say no cause he is a hall of fame manager.  He's giving everyone an out so it isn't really really ugly down the road.  I think that is very respectable
"The good Lord was good to me. He gave me a strong body, a good right arm, and a weak mind." -Dizzy Dean

by vince eating tarp on Oct 9, 2007 5:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that sounds right
I wasn't really thinking about the compromise he put forward:  the candidates could OK him in advance.  That does change things.  I think it still gives him power as a manager to do what he wants to do, but it doesn't give him power over the GM (although he may want a list of the candidates before he makes a decision).  

DeWitt will look unreasonable, I think, if he doesn't accept this.  He will have to show his hand if he doesn't want TLR here and accept the PR ramifications for that decision.

All things considered, it seems like a smart thing to do and the right thing to do on TLR's part.

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 5:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think that
Tony and Bill are in a pissing match......

by jillsinmo on Oct 9, 2007 7:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That would be funny
Only Tony is crazy enough to think he could win that one.

by DriverZn on Oct 9, 2007 8:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1
so maybe there's no ground for tlr to stay
From CuraƧao, the friendly island in the Caribbean

by Johnny64 on Oct 9, 2007 8:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Trade Pujols?
No one mentions this but since we are going to be rebuilding the team, what about the possibility of trading Pujols in the next couple years.  I know he has a no trade claus, but it could be waived if the team is in a rebuild and performing badly.  

Personally I am not a big believer in spending money on 1b since there are a lot of good hit no field players wondering around.  Mind you none of them are "good hit" like Pujols is "good hit" but I think 1b is a lot like Closers, 5th starters, and left fielders in that you can fill holes there fairly easily.

I mush rather spend on the top two-three starters and above average players up the middle and at third.

How about when Carpenter is healthy we look at trading him?

by BigJawnMize on Oct 9, 2007 4:59 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's worth too much
Even if I were to contemplate it, we'd never get enough in return to justify it.

by sdrone on Oct 9, 2007 5:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But
you gotta build your team around someone.

by saladdays on Oct 9, 2007 5:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Absolutely not
He's one of the two or three best players in the game, and he's signed at a reasonable contract. There is NO WAY you trade a player like that. It would be a PR nightmare and a hideous baseball mistake. Same with Carpenter. He's a franchise player. What you want out of a prospect is that they might one day turn into a really good major league player, and possibly a star. But a Cy Young-caliber pitcher signed at a hometown discount or a Triple Crown-quality hitter with gold glove defense? Absolutely no way on Earth you trade them.

by willievinceterry on Oct 9, 2007 6:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here, here.....trade him.
He had an awful year...I mean, 99 runs scored?
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Oct 9, 2007 6:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We should sell high
just like the Rockies did on Todd Helton.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 9, 2007 7:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

what were they askign for Helton?
Im not sure Id want them to trade AP no matter what it brought... It'd be like the bulls trading Jordan..just wrong..
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Oct 9, 2007 11:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

WHAAAAT!
Trade Pojuls....You want to put a fifty year hex on the Cardinals like the Red Sox did when the sold Ruth to the Yankees...or like Cleveland fans proclaim happened when they gave away Rocky Colavito to the Tigers

by ridgesee on Oct 10, 2007 6:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Franklin as a starter
My thoughts on this are that he could very well be a Looper-ish #4/#5, but this team already has a surplus of bottom-of-the-rotation pitchers with ERA's in the high 4's. I don't see why one would dismiss Wellemeyer or Pineiro and see Franklin as being a real improvement. You can only have one or two -- MAYBE three of those types, but you need someone else at the top along with Wainwright.

by willievinceterry on Oct 9, 2007 6:06 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And if we want to think about future value
developing Wellemeyer or Thompson would be better because they are a lot younger and could be traded later on.  

by nycardfan on Oct 9, 2007 6:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Baby Birds
The Mesa Solar Sox are up 5-2 over Phoenix.  Jarrett Hoffpauir, who game into the game in the  6th, is 2 for 2 with 2 RBIs.  Joe Mather, playing DH, is 3 for 5 with a stolen base.  

by stl tyler on Oct 9, 2007 6:25 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Er
Came into the game.

by stl tyler on Oct 9, 2007 6:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also
Motte pitched 1.1 innings allowing 1H and no runs, McClellan also pitched 1.0 innings so far I think Motte might also be the winning pitcher if things stay as they are.

by StLHugo on Oct 9, 2007 6:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good day all round
For the Redbird representatives.

The Solar Sox scored 2 runs in the 7th, 8th, and 9th innings to win 7-3.

by stl tyler on Oct 9, 2007 8:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i am dead serious when i say this
Larry you should send Dewitt your resume and apply for the Cards open GM position.
i challenge any one here to give me the name of a man (or woman) who would be better at running our beloved Cardinals than Lboros.

i already sent mine in & was rejected because i never went to college. i'm thinking of suing based on some sort of discrimination clame.
i mean just because i couldnt sit through 4+ years of college dosen't mean i dont have a good baseball mind. does it?

i really shouldn't post after 1 am should i?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Oct 10, 2007 1:33 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

New names for GM
At least these are all names I haven't heard mentioned before:

Paul Woodfork 32 - Dbacks Assistant GM
Chris Antonetti 33 - Indians VP Baseball Ops
Tony LaCava 46 - Blue Jays Director Player Personnel
Tim Purpura - fired Astros GM

These 4 are from the latest story on stltoday.com

by StLHugo on Oct 10, 2007 8:03 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Purpura
applied according to the P-D, but it did not say he was under consideration.  Any of the other guys listed would be fine, but JUST SAY NO to Purpura, Bill!

by cardsgirl95 on Oct 10, 2007 8:32 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yep
I didn't say that Bill wanted him just that they were new names I hadn't seen connected to the search before.

by StLHugo on Oct 10, 2007 8:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the Internet's #1 St. Louis Cardinals blog.
Start posting about the Cardinals »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Photo_29_small
Wrist injuries (we've earned this)
Small
The pitches the Cardinals throw.
Stl_ia_card_45_-_dark_small
Bernie *loves* RBIs as a measuring stick for offensive talent
Photo_29_small
The hiatal hernia (Or why you should stop worrying)

Recent FanPosts

584px-fredbird_small
Cardinals drinking game (circa spring 2003)
Small
Just How Valuable is Boog?
Laughing_man_elmex_small
VEB T-Shirt Design Contest
Small
More Halladay
Ozzie_s_jacked__small
Tickets to All-Star Sunday w/ Futures Game!
Images_small
Rasmus miscellany
Small
Cardinals and Injuries/Announcements
Cardsvscubs2_small
Cardinals express interest in Roy Halladay.
Leopold_butter_scotch_southpark_small
Brewers imploding?

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini


Managers

Jack_benny_small DanUpBaby

Editors

Bender_small azruavatar

Adam1_small chuckb

Ulquiorra2_small the red baron