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Around SBN: Knicks Beat Lakers With Familiar Strategy

the angel angle

i haven't seen it mentioned anywhere that the 2006-07 cardinals tracked the 2002-03 angels almost to a tee --- and with a number of the same players. eckstein, kennedy, spiezio, and troy percival all won a world title with anaheim in 2002, then suffered through a lifeless 77-85 campaign in 2003. those angels were 5 games out by may 1, 10 games out by june 1, and 15 games out by early august; they finished 19 games back. they fell into 3d place on april 18 and never rose higher in the standings. the 2007 cardinals stayed closer to the top of the division because it was a terrible division, but their season was just as bad. like the 2007 cards, the 03 angels brought back their title-winning roster almost completely intact; they made even fewer changes than the cardinals, who at least had some turnover on the pitching staff due to free-agent defections and injuries.

it's far from a perfect analogy --- those angels were much younger than the 2006-07 cards (6 of 9 everyday players were under 30), and their title-winning team had a very good overall pitching staff (2d-lowest era in the league), while the 2006 cards finished 9th in nl era and simply got hot at the right time. but there are parallels too --- the angels' offense collapsed in the year after they won the title, large through age- and injury-related attrition, and their starting rotation regressed to a 4.90 era, 4th-worst in the league --- comparable to the cards' 5.04 rotation era, which was 3d worst in the nl this year. there's enough similarity that i though it might be instructive to see how the angels responded to their 77-85 post-championship disappointment --- especially since they bounced back to win the division in 3 of the ensuing 4 years. how'd they do it?

here's a quick summary of their rosters, year by year, with starers' ages and how acquired:

2002
99-63, 2d
2003
77-85, 3d
2004
92-70, 1st
2005
95-67, 1st
2006
89-73, 2d
2007
94-68, 1st
c b molina, 27
homegrown
b molina, 28
homegrown
b molina, 29
homegrown
b molina, 30
homegrown
m napoli, 24
homegrown
m napoli, 25
homegrown
1b s spiezio, 29
free agent
s spiezio, 30
free agent
d erstad, 30
homegrown
d erstad, 31
homegrown
r quinlan, 29
homegrown
c kotchman, 24
homegrown
2b a kennedy, 26
trade
a kennedy, 27
trade
a kennedy, 28
trade
a kennedy, 29
trade
a kennedy, 30
trade
h kendrick, 23
homegrown
ss d eckstein, 27
waivers
eckstein, 28
waivers
eckstein, 29
waivers
o cabrera, 30
free agent
o cabrera, 31
free agent
o cabrera, 32
free agent
3b t glaus, 25
homegrown
t glaus, 26
homegrown
c figgins, 26
homegrown
d mcpherson, 24
homegrown
m izturis, 25
trade
c figgins, 29
homegrown
lf g anderson, 30
homegrown
g anderson, 31
homegrown
j guillen, 28
free agent
g anderson, 33
homegrown
g anderson, 34
homegrown
g anderson, 35
homegrown
cf d erstad, 28
homegrown
d erstad, 29
homegrown
g anderson, 32
homegrown
s finley, 40
free agent
c figgins, 28
homegrown
g mathews, 32
free agent
rf t salmon, 33
homegrown
j davanon, 29
trade
v guerrero, 28
free agent
v guerrero, 29
free agent
v guerrero, 30
free agent
v guerrero, 31
free agent

let's stop there for a moment; we'll get to the pitching in a second. what did the angels do here? after 2003, it took 3 to 4 years for a new crop of prospects to ripen; in the last couple seasons they have installed napoli behind the plate, kotchman at first, and kendrick at 2d, with two other homemade products (erick aybar and reggie willits) starting 162 games between them in 2007. the angels stayed extremely patient while waiting for this group to get ready, using makeshift solutions throughout the everday lineup --- and continuing to win. from 2003 to 2006 they had revolving doors at 3 positions (1b, 3b, and cf); they plugged in some one-year stopgaps (guillen, finley, izturis) and sifted through some so-so-prospects (quinlan, mcpherson). but the sifting did yield one useful homegrown player, chone figgins. the angels' saving grace was the addition of one free-agent superstar, guerrero --- for several years he was to their lineup what pujols was to stl's this year, ie the only guy who keeps it from being a total embarrassment. from 2004-06 the angels ranked 7th, 7th, and 11th in runs scored --- but they still remained competitive in a tough division. above all, they stayed young --- in every season, they had at least 4 everyday players who were younger than 30, and they avoided blockading their farm system with long-term contracts to aging vets. this year, with all the youngsters in place, they rose to 4th in scoring, and they have two pretty good hitting prospects (brandon wood and kendry morales) hovering at triple A. their future looks rosy.

could the cardinals follow a program like this? possibly. they could take the stopgap approach, commit to ryan and ankiel as everyday players in 2008 and live with their limitations (whatever they might be), with lesser prospects such as schumaker and hoffpauir available for bench support and/or everyday duty if plan A doesn't work out. if the cards can get league-average production, or close to it, from those guys, it frees up a huge chunk of payroll to address weaknesses elsewhere on the roster. and there are always the john rodriguez / ryan ludwick types floating around out there, who can provide contributions essentially for free. would that make for a great offense? not hardly; but it'd have a good chance to be league average, which would suffice for a year until rasmus and anderson come up in 2009 to (we hope) offer a boost.

now to the angels' rotation:

2002
99-63, 2d
2003
77-85, 3d
2004
92-70, 1st
2005
95-67, 1st
2006
89-73, 2d
2007
94-68, 1st
sp1 j washburn, 27
homegrown
j washburn, 28
homegrown
j washburn, 29
homegrown
j washburn, 30
homegrown
k escobar, 30
free agent
k escobar, 31
free agent
sp2 k appier, 34
trade
j lackey, 24
homegrown
j lackey, 25
homegrown
j lackey, 26
homegrown
j lackey, 27
homegrown
j lackey, 28
homegrown
sp3 r ortiz, 29
homegrown
r ortiz, 30
homegrown
b colon, 31
free agent
b colon, 32
free agent
jer weaver, 23
homegrown
jer weaver, 24
homegrown
sp4 a sele, 32
free agent
sele, 33
free agent
sele, 34
free agent
p byrd, 34
free agent
jef weaver, 29
free agent
joe saunders, 26
homegrown
sp5 j lackey, 23
homegrown
k appier, 35
trade
k escobar, 28
free agent
e santana, 22
homegrown
e santana, 23
homegrown
e santana, 24
homegrown
cl t percival, 32
homegrown
t percival, 33
homegrown
t percival, 34
homegrown
f rodriguez, 23
homegrown
f rodriguez, 24
homegrown
f rodriguez, 25
homegrown

very interesting mix of strategies here. after 2003, the angels signed two free agents: colon and escobar. colon's was a rich four-year deal, and he delivered one good season on it --- 2005, when he won the cy young. he's been hurt and / or very ineffective in all of the other three years. escobar, however, has been a wonderful buy --- sub-4.00 era's in every year of the deal, although injuries kept him sidelined for 2005, which happened to be colon's lone good season. essentially, the angels paid top dollar for 8 years of pitching and netted 4 good seasons (3 by escobar, 1 by colon). a very expensive proposition, but that's about what pitching costs these days on the free-agent market. the angels got far better returns on the three homegrown pitchers who've joined the rotation, one per year, since 2005 --- santana, jered weaver, and saunders. those guys --- all younger than 30 --- plus the homegrown 20something already in place (ie lackey) have thrown the bulk of the innings on the staff and delivered the most reliable performance. the angels also installed a young homegrown pitcher at closer, and he has been all-star caliber.

this is where the cardinals have to worry --- because the personnel are simply not available for them to execute either of the strategies the angels pursued after 2003. adam wainwright is the cards' counterpart to lackey --- a member of the championship team, already in place when the rebuilding process begins --- and that, frankly, is a huge piece of the puzzle. that's the good news. lackey has been the angels' workhorse for 4 years running, a true staff anchor, and if wainwright can provide the same for the next four years, that eliminates a very large concern for st louis. however ---- there are no bartolo colons or kelvim escobars available on the free-agent market this year (well, colon himself is available, but he's not the pitcher he was then), so that type of approach probably won't work for the cards --- and it didn't really work all that well for the angels, frankly. and in truth, the cards already have a bartolo colon counterpart under contract --- chris carpenter, an over-30 pitcher with a great track record. he has four years to run on his deal, and if he delivers 1 good season within that time frame he will have equaled colon's contribution; if he delivers 3 good seasons out of the 4, then he's the answer to escobar. so now we've got two pieces of this puzzle filled . . . . .

and what of the homegrown pitchers? jaime garcia might be ready in 2009, if he stays healthy and continues to improve --- that would be three years post-championship, the same time ervin santana joined the angels' rotation. by 2010, four years post-championship (when jered weaver arrived in los angeles), we can hope that one of the cards' #1 draftees (ottavino, tyler herron, or clay mortensen) is good to go. and by 2011, who knows?

in the short term (ie 2008) there are obvious problems --- they might be able to add one not-very-good pitcher via free agency or swing a trade for one season of jon garland or matt morris, someone like that. maybe they'll get lucky and one of the upper-level prospects who struggled this year (reyes, hawksworth, thompson) will achieve league-averageness. but they need to improve their run differential by 100 runs just to get back to .500 --- that isn't very likely to happen in a single off-season. longer term, though, i don't think the franchise's prospects are so bleak. they still have pujols in his prime; with some patience and prudence and a bit of luck (you always need that), they may be back in contention by 2009, with 3 years left to run on albert's deal. if it were to turn out that way, i for one wouldn't complain.

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Interesting
I think I like the idea of plugging the stop gaps (Ryan and Ankiel) in for a year and put that money towards pitching. We could make 2008 and all out stop gap year (sign Barry Bonds). Then we could move to the young guys come 2009 with a lot of moeny to improve if need be.
Come on You Redbirds--Mike Shannon

by BluesDrummer85 on Oct 5, 2007 10:13 AM EDT reply actions  

Did lboros convince DeWitt to fire Walt?
In Goold's transcript Dewitt said these words -

" No, I don't think that was an issue. I think it was more the internal division of various factions. Somebody ... I think it was Joe Strauss quoted a minor-league coach - I don't know who it was; you guys are all pretty good at getting scoops - who said, `I don't know who to talk to.' That's just not a good situation. You can't be productive and successful when that goes on."

These words follow lboros post on 10/1 , where he said something eerily similar:

"but if things are really as bad as described in that quote, the organization is in trouble. healthy, creative tension is one thing; a circular firing squad is another. i've been in work situations where people have to be careful about whom they share information with; in my experience, such an environment never lends itself to good performance."

Of course, these insights could have emerged independently. But is it out of the bounds of the possible that DeWitt reads VEB (attempting to track the 'pulse' of the online fanbase!?!). If he does, is it at all possible that lboros strong statement might have had an effect on the man???

Just throwing it out there.....

by cardsfaninmass on Oct 5, 2007 10:20 AM EDT reply actions  

doubtful and far-fetched
But I have to say something here:  Larry's grasp on the pulse of this franchise and its inner-workings are unparalleled.  Its insight like that which keeps me coming back here every day.  

by silent_bob on Oct 5, 2007 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree
Larry's insight to the organization as a whole is phenominal.   We are blessed to get such insight to our team spoonfed on a daily basis.

In regards to DeWitt and his comments...I think people take owners for granted.   These are very successful business people.  Most of these people have built financial empires.   They may not know as much about baseball as GMs do, but I'm sure they know a little bit about business.

It seems most fans expect an owner to buy the team, finance a stadium, then sit back and allow a GM to have open access to the company checkbook while not being heard from again.   Owners are rarely credited with any success of the team or organization.  

However, I think active influence from these business-genius types is key.  Also, I think all levels of an organization should be held accountable for performance.  I feel good about the way DeWitt has taken this team from the very poor status he acquired it in and raised it from a bottom tier payroll team to top...from a (generally) losing team to a winning one.

We can preach farm system, scouting, winning in the margins, etc. all we want...but the true key to a winning franchise is sound business decisions and an active business plan.   I get the impression these sort of things are right up DeWitt's alley.

by RedbirdRay on Oct 5, 2007 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think this bias is created by having
the two most well-known (former) owners being Marge Schott and George Steinbrenner, who have both certainly had forays into the realm of the strange.

by Valatan on Oct 5, 2007 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

LB
was referring to a quote in the p-d the day before (or maybe 2 days before).  They were both referring to the same quote.

by chuckb on Oct 5, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know
but lboros offered his interpretation of the quote FIRST. And it was a strong interpretation suggesting that the situation had grown not only 'awkward', but dysfunctional.  

I'm only suggesting that maybe - just maybe - DeWitt read Strauss, and then read VEB, and then started thinking, "Man, our situation really is dysfunctional....we have to do SOMETHING about it."

And he did.

by cardsfaninmass on Oct 5, 2007 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

shhhhh ---- don't blow my cover
if the new gm sucks, i don't want people to think this was my fault . . . . : )

by lboros on Oct 5, 2007 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good exercise
My prevailing sentiment while reading the post is that we cannot bet the farm (literally) to trade for a #2 starter this year if we want to contend by 2009.  This organization cannot afford to lose our blue chippers. We need to start turning this roster over.

I sure hope that Rasmus, Garcia, Anderson, and Perez are untouchable.  

by silent_bob on Oct 5, 2007 10:40 AM EDT reply actions  

I like this analysis a lot
But I also feel like the Angels could be a much much better team.  The organization's unwillingness to deal prospects for established veterans has really hurt it.  They have needed more power for a long time and have been unwilling to trade any of its position player prospects (Wood, Morales, Aybar, Kotchman, McPherson).  Some of those prospects now appear to be busts and probably should have been traded earlier when their value was high.

It seems to me that one thing Walt was really good at was realizing that prospects wash out at a pretty high rate.  Therefore, if you can translate some of your prospects into established veterans that will be productive you are better off in the long run.

I am not advocating selling the farm by any means, but rather that the team must look at its prospects very critically especially when they are highly touted and thus highly coveted.  

Anderson might be a good example of this.  He seems to be ranked really highly and I would love to have an offensive catcher at some point.  However, what type of deal could be put together with him as the centerpiece?  Are we really that confident that he will be a successful major league catcher?  I think you at least have to consider including him in a deal.

Anyway, I know this is off on a tangent from the original post, I am just reacting to the fact that I think the Angels could be a better team today and over the last couple of years if they wouldn't have been so unwilling to deal at least some of their prospects.

by OCCardsFan on Oct 5, 2007 10:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Yes.
I would be inclined to sell high on Anderson right now.  More than anything, I just think about what Reyes could have netted last season after that world series game.

by Valatan on Oct 5, 2007 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Anderson
I actually think that now that Anderson is on Team USA any selling could be selling too low.  If he performs well as the starting catcher on that team (and it seems he will be) then his stock will do nothing but rise this off season and the organization has their own batting coach on that team as well so I really think Anderson should be off the block unless we get something nice for him.  This is a complete turn around from my stance on him just a few weeks ago I know but now I think we need to hang on to him for now.

by StLHugo on Oct 5, 2007 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd be more inclined to wait
until Anderson's ready and trade Yadi as he approaches free agency.  I know that's not a popular opinion but his salary will escalate, he'll likely be on his 2nd or 3rd Gold Glove by then and we can sell high on Yadi instead and have a solid catcher for 6 years to replace him.

by chuckb on Oct 5, 2007 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd like to see Anderson become ready
I'm doubtful he will as a catcher.  He may be one of those prospects you need to sell high on because the return will outweight the return he would ever give the Cards on the field.
Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 5, 2007 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

How was the Angels' farm system
at the beginning of this stretch?  Was it good, bad, ugly?  I guess my question is when all these "homegrown" players were drafted.

'Cause if they were already drafted, that'd mean we'd already have to have them drafted to be in a similar position.

by sdrone on Oct 5, 2007 10:46 AM EDT reply actions  

Thats what I was wondering as well...
very cool analysis regardless, though, L.

(I'm going to start calling him L.)

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Oct 5, 2007 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

enhancement
Wouldn't it be more appropriate to call him "l"?

BTW that's a lowercase L, not a 1.

Maybe we should just call him littleL?  

by RedbirdRay on Oct 5, 2007 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I want to switch it up
maybe "L-Bor"
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Oct 5, 2007 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

You could call him T-Bone
but that would probably make me Koko

by Valatan on Oct 5, 2007 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

well i don't know
how the farm system as a whole was, but of those homegrown players, Kendrick and Saunders were drafted the year they won it all (2002), and only Jered Weaver (2004) was drafted after.  Everyone else was already in the system by the time they had their world series.  But a number of the guys came from the 2000 and 2001 drafts.  While 2004 was no good, save for maybe Hoffipaur, 2005 looks like it was quite the draft, so maybe the cards aren't too far off this trajectory.  

Also, Larry had one mix up:  Howie Kendrick is homegrown and Chone Figgins was aquired; he was drafted by the Rockies in 1997.

by mdarshan on Oct 5, 2007 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Three things
  • How does the Troy Glaus factor play into this.  The Angels parted ways with the offensive threat at 3rd base and began the revolving door.  Would they have been better served keeping that 3rd basemen?  What does a resurgent Scott Rolen do to our parellel?
  • The offense is damaged goods but certainly fixable.  It is the pitching staff that is awful. Wainwright and maybe Carpenter in 2009.  Reyes has been epically bad, Thompson barely touching league average.  We have nothing in AAA and very few guys in AA that inspire any confidence.
If this was any other organization, the AA pitchers might get a chance to compete for a job in the ST and just take their lumps next year in the rotation.  Not here.  We are bunching the prospects together at Springfield in hopes they learn to play and win together.  This may stunt other growth while allowing others to develop.

* Keith Law wrote a pretty scathing blurb the other day about the romanticism of Lunhow's drafts and what he has filled the farm system with.  I know everyone LOVES Keith Law around here but I found it interesting that outsiders see Bill DeWitt's faith in Jeff as quizical.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 5, 2007 11:07 AM EDT reply actions  

i tend to agree with law
to a degree. luhnow's drafts really don't appear to be all that grand in my eyes. he seems to reach for good, safe players while passing on guys with more upside, and he also takes shots on quirky college players like degerman and jay, guys who had great success in the ncaa but many scouts feel won't pan out as well in pro ball.

on the positive...it appears we have a

star cf
a solid c
a closer in perez
good starters in jaime garcia, mortensen, ottavino, and herron, but none of the three are slam dunks due to health or other issues, and all are 2 or more years away.

then you have a bunch of others who are question marks. he's improved the farm. no doubt. it's getting out of the woods, but i think the cardinals system will once again be ranked as below average...and he's had three drafts to replenish with. then again, some of these guys could really end up doing well this year, there's room for break outs. personally, i'm pretty excited about jose martinez. he could be capable fo renteria type numbers.

by erik on Oct 5, 2007 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

2005
In Law's attack though he called the 2005 draft nothing but Rasmus for a lack of better terms, he basically called all our prospects except rasmus pure crap, it wasn't an objective article at all.

by StLHugo on Oct 5, 2007 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

didn't read that
just what hl was saying. i wouldn't say that at all.

by erik on Oct 5, 2007 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Law
Since I am not an insider I can't verify this but it was posted on cards talk and attributed to Law:

"Just one major thing to add - the Cardinals still have one of the worst farm systems in baseball. After Colby Rasmus, a top-of-the-line prospect, who do they have who definitely projects as an above-average regular? Anderson struggled this year at the plate and with his throwing. Garcia had a terrible year. John Jay didn't hit at all. Mark Hamilton didn't hit at all in AA. Ottavino is a future reliever; Chris Perez is already a reliever and I project him as a setup guy. Tyler Greene and Mark McCormick were laughable picks in 2005 that cost $1.9 million between them, and neither looks like he'll get more than a cup of coffee. After Rasmus and perhaps Tyler Herron, it's pretty thin, with a lot of guys looking like they're not going to pan out. So I don't really see the evidence that Luhnow has made a positive difference in the way those departments are run; perhaps it's too early to tell, but I don't buy the arguments that we are already seeing progress."

by StLHugo on Oct 5, 2007 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Know what
You know what, he is probably dead on.  It often takes someone from the outside looking in to tell you what is going wrong.  Now I don't question Law's knowledge at all.

Our farm system is pretty bad.  Just look at the September call ups.  Wow the guys were very unspectacular.  Those guys got called up because they supposidly produced at the minor league level.

It does not look good.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 5, 2007 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

i wouldn't go THAT far
the guys on the AAA team, they are bad.

springfield went to the tl championship
the swing made the playoffs.

there is some talent there, a lot more then in years but it's still questionable. don't get me wrong.

if it were that horrible, i'd find something else to blog on, like knitting or kite making...ok, probably not.

by erik on Oct 5, 2007 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think some of the reaction
from guys like law and ken rosenthal is simply an extension of the philosophical division within the front office. jocketty has a lot of allies throughout baseball --- he's helped a lot of people and developed a lot of loyal friendships. i'm not suggesting this in a negative way --- ie, i don't think walt was an empire-builder who consciously cultivated a network of cronies. i think he just commands a lot of respect, and deservedly so.

luhnow on the other hand has no allies, no track record, no nothin' --- plus he's a slender dockers-wearing nerd, not a stiffnecked man w/ a firm handshake and a bit o' belly hanging over his belt buckle. a lot of people (including perhaps keith law) were offended that the cardinals would empower a guy like that over the objections of a guy like walt.

so i think some of this blowback is personality-driven to an extent. i still haven't heard a convincing argument that a bigger free-agent budget would have benefitted the team this year. the best pitcher on the market --- ted lilly --- is a guy the cardinals never even considered. they didn't miss out on him due to lack of $$$$ --- they missed out due to a mistake in talent assessment. the organization has made too many of those missteps in the past few years. walt lost his touch --- that's why change became thinkable, and eventually became reality.

by lboros on Oct 5, 2007 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm an insider...
... and read a lot of Law's articles. he has a consistent and overwhelming anti-Cardinal bias. It really is ridiculous at times. Right after we won the World Series last year he proceeded to proclaim that we were undeserving. I have no idea what he has against us but he clearly has some sort of personal grudge. Maybe he is a Cubs fan? I just think he is a jackass.

by BigMac545 on Oct 5, 2007 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

More Law comments
  I'm not an insider but I was in that chat.  He also commented how the approach in recent drafts appears to have been to go with 'safe' players, even to the point of overdrafting them (drafting them early); while passing on high upside players with signability concerns (i.e. wants to go over slot).
  If that's the case, that's not the recipe to aggressively restock a system.  Look at Detroit, Yankees, Dodgers (to some extent), and Boston---they have no qualms signing above slot, they want the best available player.  You have to get the blue-chip players and if that costs more, so be it.  In the long run, it's the cost effective approach.

by Recon on Oct 5, 2007 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

that i do
agree with. totally. there is no way to really turn it around dramatically. it's a safe, calculated and maybe even cheap approach. it's restocked the system in terms of depth, NOT in terms of high impact.

by erik on Oct 5, 2007 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

er, i mean
that is no way to turn it around dramatically...dagnabbit.

by erik on Oct 5, 2007 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

FRB agrees
I think everyone that post over at future redbirds thinks along the same lines.  Every prospect in the draft is high risk.  The Cardinals need to be drafting the high reward types.  For the most part they just aren't.

by BigJawnMize on Oct 5, 2007 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

That what is frustrating
if DeWitt knew that he was going to be taking this approach (ie rebuild from within) then in these two down years (2006 and 2007) why not blow the doors of with high ceiling prospects?  If you are going to comitt to player development, when you have two bad years that give you higher than usual draft picks (not to mention all the arbitration picks we got), why not use these two years to reload the farm system with better players.

Even if it means spending a good chunk of money on only 3 or 4 players out of the 2 drafts that will make it the show, find some good out of being THIS bad.

Instead, we got Pete Kozma. Teams like the Indians have young MIF like Cabrera coming up.  We've got a guy with a funky swing and just a younger version of Scrappy McScrapscrap.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 5, 2007 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

AGREED
Why are we drafting guys like these?

No offense to Dave Eckstein, Brendan Ryan, and Ryan Theriot but I want an impact player at SS.  I don't want scrappy up the middle, I want talent at C, SS, and CF.  You need your best athletes and defenders up the middle.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 5, 2007 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

in some respects
they are. tyler herron had only pitched as a high school senior, and they picked him 46th because they thought he could learn to pitch, and he did this year.

daryl jones was a third rounder, he was going to be a wide receiver in the NCAA but turned it down to play baseball. he oozes with tools but doesn't look like he'll ever put it together.

tommy pham was given 3rd round money to steer him away from going to Cal Fullerton because he could throw 92, hit and run like the wind.

ty greene was taken despite striking out a lot, because he could run, field and hit for power. he was a pick based on what they felt his upside was.

then of course, you have colby rasmus.

they also took other high schoolers this year like hooker and zawacki. they seem to be more comfortable taking more high schoolers later, like those two and jonathan edwards. and in the past two drafts.

they have had more whiffs then hits on some of the  "high risk, high reward" guys but it's not like they aren't totally trying. they seem to do well taking some of the high schoolers in the latter rounds and convince them to turn pro. could they improve? abso stinkin'lutely. i'm not trying to flip flop here, but they are not just taking safe picks 100% of the time. i'd love to see them layoff all the back of the rotation types in the supplemental through 5th rounds, and to stay the heck away from the shane robinson's of the world, perhaps they will learn.

by erik on Oct 6, 2007 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Let's not be so quick to crap on Kozma
I've heard good things about his range and athleticism in the field and he's still a teenager.

Let's see how he looks next year, after (hopefully) working his butt off this winter to develop as a professional hitter.

by liam on Oct 5, 2007 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

i agree
and i for one didn't like the pick for a while, but that was based on what law and carlos gomez had said. others have said he was the best SS of the draft. the blue jays apparently were going hoping to nab him at 21, and the twins at 28, so he was a true first rounder. he's only 19, there is a lot of baseball ahead of him, so i don't think it's wise to shoehorn him into a future brendan ryan or ryan theriot just yet.

by erik on Oct 6, 2007 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

safe approach?
It may not be a bad approach to start building a farm system with safe picks early.  You have to improve from nothing to something, and if you can't sign a guy, you are left with nothing.  If amazing potential doesn't pan out, you are left with nothing.  If injury risk becomes actual injury, you are left with nothing.  Get some fresh faces in, some will end up average, some below, some above - but you have something to work with.  Maybe we will see more calculated risk in the draft once the farm stabilizes.  Just throwing out another point of view.  

by cdb on Oct 5, 2007 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

The wild card here is that
we don't know Jocketty's impact on all this.  I don't know how strong it was, but it wasn't nothing.  Under a new GM, who knows what kind of risk-taking we might see?

by MdRedbirdFreak on Oct 5, 2007 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Offensive collapse
I remember part of the collapse in offense was a drop in team batting average. It went from .282 in '02 to .268 in '03 while being around league average in walk rate both years.

I say that the Cards seem to be in desperate need for more walks and doubles in their lineup next year.

by bdief on Oct 5, 2007 11:14 AM EDT reply actions  

Not really related to this post
But I didn't want to start a diary for a quick question.

I just checked out the lineup for the Mesa Solar Sox, the AFL team we're affiliated with.

They have Joe Mather listed as playing second base.    Now I realize they've got a lot of young players from several different teams and they need to find spots for everyone, but does our organization have any say in that sort of thing?  Could that be something we're trying out?

Joe Mather would become a much more interesting prospect if he were a second baseman as opposed to an outfielder.  

by stl tyler on Oct 5, 2007 12:04 PM EDT reply actions  

he was drafted as a SS
so playing 2B isn't too far-fetched, but how many 6' 5" 230 lb 2B's are there?  (I really don't know)

I suppose we wouldn't have to worry about people trying to take him out with a hard slide...

by SleepyCA on Oct 5, 2007 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Huh
I didn't know he started as a middle infielder.  

The past few seasons of revolving door second basemen make the idea of a homegrown, power hitting second baseman pretty interesting.  If his defense is even average at second it should be something for the organization to consider.

That is pretty huge for a middle infielder though.  

by stl tyler on Oct 5, 2007 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Barring that
He could be our next Spiezio.  Seems like the guy can play everywhere.  

by stl tyler on Oct 5, 2007 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

6'5" 230?!
Get that man to the hot corner!

by spants on Oct 5, 2007 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've seen mather play
third.  It wasn't a pretty site.  Sometimes seeing amaueture and lower level minor league players field their positions, really gives you an appreciation of even the worst fielding big leaguers.  Mather took the Ryan Braun aproach of fielding third base, knock it down some how, pick it up, and then throw to first.

by Hammondsbird on Oct 5, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've seen him as well
I think he's athletic enough to play an OF corner, but not 3b.  He's an OF or 1B.

by chuckb on Oct 5, 2007 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I haven't seen
him play.  Just sounds like Rolen's build.

by spants on Oct 5, 2007 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rolen
is extremely agile for his size. Kind of the exception, if you will
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Oct 6, 2007 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Cardinals
Drafting prooven college players is not a bad strategy, but STL really needs to start taking a chance on some stud HS arms.

Those are the types of guys who can really turn your pitching around.  

The Cardinals just don't have enough talent stock piled to start trading prospects.  The braves trade prospects all the time, and that is because their minor league system is chalk full of prospects.  But you can't hold on to prospects too long either because they get old and someone has a player just as good who is a few years younger.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 5, 2007 12:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Depends on the goal
If you have no decent prospects and you need to restock quickly.  Then the current strategy makes sense.  We are trying hard to quickly restock our "replacement level" talent base.  i.e. guys that can fill in as needed but are not going to be impact.  

Once that is done then we can start taking the chances you need to maybe get lucky and find an impact guy.

by DriverZn on Oct 5, 2007 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Question
Who was the last stud pitcher the Cardinals drafted?

Is it me, but it seems STL is the only team that never drafts good pitchers.  I can come up with a ton of names of young pitchers who are very good.  STL has not drated anyone who has panned out?  Don't know if it is a luck thing or bad scouting.  Just like the Cubbies seem to complain about never being able to draft good position players.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 5, 2007 12:12 PM EDT reply actions  

i agree...
with the analysis that lb usually seems to be right in step with everything the team does

my question to lb:i think i have heard you deem VEB a hobby, if you are this good at a hobby, how good are you in the professional world where your livelihood is on the line?

let me put it another way:i dont know what you are professionally, (for some reason i am thinking writer or teacher)but if you were say a lawyer, or big business guy, after being this good at a hobby, i wouldnt want to cross you

i hope you take this as the pure compliment i am trying to get across (very badly, i might add)

now just a few words about the post, i like this analogy, we can be competitive in this division next year, IF, (and that is a very big if), several things work out right (mulder healthy, rolen healthy, edmonds healthy, kennedy reagaining form etc., etc.), but we cant count on any of that

i think this offseason needs to go a certain way:

  1. go with young guys wherever possible, this means tryout ryan fulltime
  2. have ankiel as a starting outfielder, and stick with him, good or bad (at least until he shows that he cant be a fulltime productive player)
  3. have ludwick and schumaker as your oufield backups, and if you drop taguchi, his money pays them both
4.let miles walk, and try out barden and hoffpauir to be the backup infielders, and they together would be less than mils
5.not sure what to do with backup catcher, but i think we should be able to replace bennett for pretty close to the minimum
6. as far as the bullpen, i wouldnt make many moves there, try bringing springer, and percival back, if possible, and try to get perez to st louis in the middle of the season, so izzy can show him what goes into being a closer
7.now the starting rotation; this is where it gets dicey:all we really can think right now is that we have our current number 1 in wagonmaker, a number 4 in looper, three guys who could compete for spots are reyes, thompson, and wellemeyer, if you can get 1 number 5 starter out of that group be happy
8.that still leaves 2 slots in the rotation; pineiro, at the right price, could fill one; a free-agent along the lines of carlos silva or someone like him could take the other, just dont hamstring yourself for the future on a guy who would be average at best; another way to go here would be to try to get a guy like burnett now, and he should still be here when we can compete again, but dont trade an untouchable for him, try making it about money, where we are mainly giving them relief, plus he isnt popular there; but above all, no more sid ponsons, kip wells, mike maroths, ricardo rincons; limit what you will take a flyer on

damn, i am rambling today

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 5, 2007 12:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Miles
You know, I have never really understood the VEB community when they keep talking badly about Miles.  The only problem with Miles is that he is forced to play every day because of injuries with Kennedy and Eck.  He is a great bench guy, made only 350k in 2006, and can play multiple positions.  To me, he's a great bargain guy.

What am I missing out on here?  Has he played well enough to price himself up?

Otherwise I agree with most of what you said.  When it comes down to it, the Cardinals real problem is pitching.  Wells, Martoh, Rincon, Ponson.  Seems like we are always paying guys who do a poor job, pitch minimal innings, and make a fair amount of money.  You could just as easily get league average production out of a young guy that you are paying 300k.

by Quel on Oct 5, 2007 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Miles is not a great bench player
he has no secondary offensive skills.  All he does is hit for an empty .300 average.  On top of that he's an average fielder at second and below average everywhere else.  Aaron Miles adds absolutely nothing to the team that we couldn't find somewhere else in the minors for free.  He's in arbitration now (made 1M last year) and we have better options coming up behind him.

by azruavatar on Oct 5, 2007 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep, and that empty .300
could easily turn into an empty .251 in 2008.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Oct 5, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

He is a good bench player
Sure he has deficiencies. But .300 is .300. There is no empty .300. He also does not strike out a lot. He makes contact. Sounds as if you don't like him because he doesn't have a lot of pop. Well, if he did he'd be an all star and worth a lot more than $1 million.

by templetown on Oct 5, 2007 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't like him because
when AVG is your only skillset your a liability to just go flat because of random variation (bad luck).  More importantly, there's no reason to pay over league minimum for someone like that.  

And yes, you are wrong, there is such a thing as an empty .300.  Do a search on the site, it's been explained multiple times.

by azruavatar on Oct 5, 2007 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

He is not a good bench player
His career OBP is .323; his career SLG is .357 for a career OPS of .680.  His career OPS+ is 71 -- 29% worse than the average player.

He is bad defensively and b/c he's bad defensively, is limited to 1 position -- 2b.  Good bench players do something well -- play defense, have speed, hit for power, get on base, play multiple positions -- Aaron Miles does none of these.  He did play some SS and 3B this year until LaRussa had enough of watching him butcher those 2 positions.

As for "pop" -- he has none -- as I mentioned, he has a career SLG of .357.  And the lack of pop is significant.  It, along w/ being able to reach base consistently, which he doesn't, is what separates good offensive players from bad ones.  Miles is bad offensively, bad defensively and not at all versatile.  Therefore, he has none of the attributes of a good bench player.

by chuckb on Oct 5, 2007 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Spiezio
is a "good" bench player. Miles is not.
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Oct 6, 2007 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

He made...
$1Mil in '07.  Probably would get that again if we signed him back.

by cardzfanbub on Oct 5, 2007 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

bigcardsfand5 I like
your analysis on the way the offseason should go. I think the Cards can at least compete for NL Central next year with a minimun of moves; kind of what you outlined. I think Scott Rolen could bounce back to really contribute next year. If he can hit .250 and 18 0r 20 home runs, he's worth his contract. He is that good defensively. I think Jim Edmunds could bounce back for a good last "hurrah". (I also hope he moves to rightfield). I think wellemeyer and Pineiro can be league average starters. I don't think Mulder or Kennedy can find their way back though. I have nothing to base these all these predictions on other than a "gut feeling" but sometimes my feelings turn out right.

by ridgesee on Oct 5, 2007 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Today's Subject
LBoros,

Thanks for directly addressing my question for an estimate of the organization's competitive recovery time horizon (asked on Wednesday in the aftermath of the Jocketty release).  I appreciate the answers I saw from everyone.  I see a fair amount of convergence on the general answer (if I may paraphrase):  2-3 years minimum, with the recovery largely reliant upon getting a proper pitching staff in place.  If that's completely off-base, let me know.

"Requiescat In Pace - 2007 Zombie Cardinals"

by AustinBOB on Oct 5, 2007 12:56 PM EDT reply actions  

Mather
Mather was drafted as a SS and started his career as a 3B.   The only problem I would see with this strategy is that if they want to make him a 2B next year what happens to Hoff.  Hoff probably needs at least another few months of AAA time.

by cariocacardinal on Oct 5, 2007 1:32 PM EDT reply actions  

AFL
If you look at the Mesa roster I think they listed him in the IF since they already have 5 OF but they also have 4 corner IF and 4 middle IF besides mather with only 1 of those being listed as a reserve list.  I think Mather will end up being the utility man for them from what it looks like.  Don't worry about him replacing Hoff anytime soon.

by StLHugo on Oct 5, 2007 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's gotta be a typo
seriously, the guy is big. doesn't make any sense.

by erik on Oct 5, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lunhow Drafts
Lunhow has definately drafted players that have performed well early in their minor league careers.   What has yet to be seen is if that will transfer to big league success.   He has often drafted older collegians which may be what is leading to their early minor league success.  I also think (no proof) that moneyball type players (good K/BB ratios - both for pitchers and batters) leads to early success in the minors but that more talented players tend to catch up and then surpass these types of guys.

by cariocacardinal on Oct 5, 2007 1:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Wow
That post was epic, LB. Thanks again for your ability to put into words what are usually vague, fragmented thoughts in my head (Birds not so hot in 08, but a chance to return to form by 09). It's amazing to read posts so consistently interesting and informative while the corpse of the 07 season is still warm (for me, it won't be cold until a new Champ is crowned). Great work.

by rockin redbird on Oct 5, 2007 1:51 PM EDT reply actions  

heap it on
more of the good stuff that we never get in the papers. thanks again.  

the question was asked about the evolution of the farm system through the same period.  evidence of the cards making investments to expand and improve the system are there, but when the last step in the system short of the big club, aaa, has a lock on last place in their league, it's easy to figure we're not (yet) matching pace with our competitors.

any simple way to get a index of farm system competitiveness and chart the evolution of each club?  

 

Play Roy Hobbs Everyday!

by Birds on the Bat on Oct 5, 2007 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Manager
How long will Tony take to decide?  If Tony leaves do you think Dunc leaves?  Dunc still has a year left on his contract?

I have the utmost respect for both men, as their preparation and competativness is second to none.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 5, 2007 2:46 PM EDT reply actions  

this weekend
from reading the articles about Moz today he thinks Tony will decide this weekend after talking with his family (who think he is under appreciated here).  If Tony goes but is taking the year off I suspect Dunc will stay, if he is going to manager Dunc will probably be released and go with him.

by StLHugo on Oct 5, 2007 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

These articles
It sounds like the team wants to bring Eckstein back.

I hope they offer arbitration and tender a lowball one-year contract. If he takes it, fine. If he holds out for multiple-years, take the draft picks.

I was pleased that they aren't going to bring Bennett back (nothing against him as a man, just as a ballplayer).

by liam on Oct 5, 2007 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

now that the FO is commited to this new approach
i wonder how luhnow will do. he reportedly wanted porcello, FO wouldn't pony up. he obviously wanted russell, walt...yes walt was working the deal, sent his scouts and decided not to sign him. read into that what you will. i wonder if with more scratch possibly now going into pd, if luhnow's drafting will improve.

by erik on Oct 5, 2007 2:49 PM EDT reply actions  

I've wondered this since the Russell
deal fell through.  Was it DeWitt who wouldn't pony up the $$$ or was it Walt who felt it wasn't a good return?  I'm hoping that the answer was that it was Walt but we'll probably never know unless a similar situation occurs next year.  I also wonder, and bet Dewitt does also, to what extent did friction between Walt and Luhnow get in the way of the Russell signing or the Porcello drafting.  I would hope that it didn't but...

by chuckb on Oct 5, 2007 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

i remember reading
walt's scouts advised against signing him

by erik on Oct 5, 2007 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I remember reading this at the time
Does that mean, necessarily, that Walt decided he wasn't worth the money?  Frankly, I can't imagine failing to sign him over a couple hundred thousand dollars unless you were the one writing the check.  If this was Walt's decision, it was a colossal mistake and a primary reason why it was time for Walt to depart.

As for the draft itself, who actually drafted Russell.  Does Luhnow, himself, do the drafting?  I got the impression, perhaps falsely, that Walt would've given the final go-ahead on the draftees -- at least the earlier ones.  If I'm right, why would Walt draft him?  If I'm wrong, was Walt's failure to sign Russell really just a big f-u to Luhnow?

by chuckb on Oct 5, 2007 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

luhnow does all the drafting
and i swear, the day past the signing deadline there was an article at the p d. that had nothing but jocketty basically poo pooing russell. i wish i could find it. i don't want to read too much into it, but now with everything we know it does seem a tad askew.

by erik on Oct 6, 2007 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree and disagree...
I've been an avid reader of VEB for a while now but never got an account to post; love the content and the dedication but I think this misses the mark a little bit.  The Angels would have been better off trading a few top prospects for established relievers to make a run at a title in the last 2 or 3 years when the AL has been a league that could be had with the Yanks and Boston down a bit due to pitching problems and injuries.  Guys like McPherson, Kotchman, and Brandon Wood all would have brought in decent players who've been on the block the last couple of years to add some pop and depth to their lineup.  Face it, the only batter in that lineup that puts a scare into anyone is Vlad...and he's not getting any younger.  Kotchman is a Wally Joyner type, which just doesn't translate into today's metrics; first baseman have to hit for power to the tune of 20-30 HR's a year.  I don't see Kotchman averaging those numbers.  McPherson is all but done, and Wood is the second coming of Bobby Crosby at this point -- high upside potential that never is reached.

I think the Cards are in a better position than most think.  We have the best hitter in the game locked up through the first half of his prime years, a bona-fide #1 starter who's been injury free, and an effective, although aging, closer.  75% of teams in baseball can't say that!  Obviously Rasmus is untouchable, and they've been grooming him for 2009 -- which was why Jimmy's contract was renegotiated to two years for the same money.  He's a stop-gap to Cody.  If the Cards could move Reyes and another prospect to get Burnett, who wants to play in St. Louis anyway, that deal has to get done.  I'm of the opinion you keep Duncan and Ankiel to man the corner outfield spots, and give them every chance to play every day and prove themselves.  Schumaker can fill the So Taguchi role playing everywhere and being a decent option off the bench when Edmonds gets hurt (likely) or needs a rest.  I could even see trading off some other small pieces to get a quality third or fourth starter -- someone in the last year of his deal or a youngster who's worn out his welcome with a club, as Reyes has with the Birds.  The offense doesn't need a lot of help, although a true leadoff guy would be nice, especially if Rolen can return to form and Yadier can keep improving at the plate.  Remember, those Molina brothers were good behind the dish and terrible beside it when they came up, but each has improved his batting stroke as their careers have gone on.  There's really only one pitcher on the FA market to look at in the next two years -- Johan Santana.  He's probably going to command big bucks, but this is a spot where management could open up the checkbook a bit.  He'd be in the middle of his prime, he's dominate more in the NL than he has in the AL, and he's never really been hurt.

As for the draft, the new rules were put in place this year to encourage more teams to draft like the Yankees do -- it makes super-agents (Boras) less effective at holding teams hostage for high picks because of huge signing bonuses, which only the Yankees, Braves, and Boston have been willing to pay.  I agree that teams should move above slot for certain players, and that it is more cost effective than taking "safe" players, but some of the best players aren't guys that you reach for, it's guys that nobody else has scouted or looked at!  

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Oct 5, 2007 3:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Burnett? Right.
If a team you like offers you 4/$40m and a team people don't really like playing for offers you 5/$55m, and you take the offer from the team no one really likes playing for, I think it should be obvious that he didn't really care that much about playing in St. Louis.

It's about money.

by sdrone on Oct 5, 2007 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Send them decent prospects
And they'll pick up some of his salary--so we could have him for something close to what we were willing to pay.

He came on strong at the end of the year—no telling whether the BJ's GM will see an opportunity to sell high or hold on to a good pitcher.

If we traded for him, would we still be on the hook for his wife's limo rides from Maryland to Toronto?

by liam on Oct 5, 2007 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

valid observations fourstick
re the angels' hordeing of prospects. but i think their patience will be vindicated. they could have traded some prospects for rolen or tejada or andruw jones, but all of those guys are worse hitters now --- today --- than kotchman and kendrick. and kotchman and kendrick still have upside, while rolen / tejada / jones have nothing but decline ahead of them.

i don't think the team  sacrificed anything by hordeing the prospects. they've only missed the playoffs once in the last four years, so they didn't really sacrifice anything by hanging on to the prospects. and they're gonna be a juggernaut in the next few years. colon's salary comes off the books this year, and there's hitting talent aplenty on the free-agent market. so they'll add a veteran impact hitter to a lineup that's already cheap, young, and improving. i can't find fault with the decisions they've made.

by lboros on Oct 5, 2007 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

DeWitt and Wisdom
I just read the transcript Derrick Goold posted at BirdLand of the press conference re: Jocketty.

. . .

Q. Did Tony give you any timetable?
A. {snip} I got the sense that it would be in the recently near future. What that means, I can't tell you.

. . .

That is my new favorite phrase, the recently near future. What that means, I can't tell you, either.

by Youneverknow on Oct 5, 2007 4:13 PM EDT reply actions  

is that like
the recently past present?
Oh how wonderful it will be when the offseason comes. Lets sign some guys and get back to respectability in the NL Central!

by yer dog first on Oct 5, 2007 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it's more like
the impending near past

by jeff abs on Oct 5, 2007 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, it simply means
in the almost immeidately forseeable future

by ridgesee on Oct 5, 2007 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was delighted to see this post, lboros.
In several proposed trade threads involving Angel players, I had noted that they tend to keep their homegrown talent....nice to see your take on the good/bad in this strategy.

by jillsinmo on Oct 6, 2007 9:37 AM EDT reply actions  

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