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The Burnett Dilemma

lester

cook

4-0, 4.57

8-7, 4.12

Well, it looks like we're just waiting for the dogpile now. It was fun while it lasted.

I didn't see much of the game - went to a pretty good school play tonight. I saw Holliday's blast make it close but the Rockies' comeback started in the 6th. They got 2 runs and had 2 on w/ 1 out, facing Mike Timlin. Ryan Spilborghs pinch hit for Cory Sullivan and hit a blast to straight away CF that Ellsbury caught up against the fence. The next batter was Jeff Baker who scorched a ball that should've been a 2 run double to left-center but Lugo made a tremendous leaping catch to end the inning. Holliday's blast got the lead to one but the Sox stretched it out and cruised in the 9th, thus setting up the inevitable dogpile.

As I said in the game thread, "sometimes you're the windshield and sometimes you're the bug." Make no mistake, the Red Sox are, by far, the more talented team here. But luck often plays a critical role. With a little luck, the Rockies would've gotten a couple more runs there, or maybe several, and it's a whole different ballgame. A 2-1 deficit w/ 2 more at home is so much different from being down 3-0. And Aaron Cook goes tonight - he last pitched on August 10. Hopefully, we'll get that Antonetti announcement we're looking forward to very soon but I hate the end of the baseball season. If so, he has a lot to consider. What day do pitchers and catchers report?

3 years ago, the Cards were finalists in the A.J. Burnett derby, only to lose him to the Blue Jays b/c the Jays offered him a 5th year, and an opt-out clause after the 3rd. The Cards' offer only went to 4 years and, to my knowledge, did not offer Burnett the ability to opt-out after year 3.

Let me start out by saying that I was opposed to signing Burnett at the time. Most here know that LB has stated that the Cards should have signed Burnett . I didn't then, and don't now, think it's a good idea to sign (even admittedly very good) starting pitchers to 5 year contracts - particularly those with a history of injuries. However, it looks as though Burnett will be shopped this offseason and the Cards, with their rotation problems and history of interest in Burnett, could be a likely landing spot. Of course, that history was w/ Jocketty at the helm but there's no reason to think that Antonetti or (gulp!) Mozeliak wouldn't be interested in adding Burnett to the rotation.

The difference now, of course, is that he effectively now has a 3 year contract. Or does he?...more on that later. Nevertheless, my interest in Burnett is considerably higher now than 2 years ago as it's no longer a 5 year contract. He's had 2 relatively successful years in Toronto. This time, the Cards would have to trade for Burnett, thus costing more than money, however. The rumors that he would be shopped this offseason began when his GM suggested publicly that, maybe, Burnett wasn't trying to return from his injury as expeditiously as the team would like.

Burnett is owed $12 million per year for each of the next 3 years and, as mentioned earlier, has the ability to opt-out of the contract at the end of this season. In evaluating Burnett, many will point to his 2 years in Toronto as being sub-par - having thrown only a combined 300.1 innings in the 2 years. This, the critics will point out, is testament to the fragility that many were concerned about 2 years ago. "$12 million a year is too much for 150 IP," they'll say and a fair argument can be made for such sentiment. They'll also point to the fact that he's entering his age-31 season - he's not getting any younger.

He is, however, probably the best starting pitcher available this offseason except for Johan Santana. If Schilling is the best free agent SP, Burnett was better last year, despite just 165 IP, and is several years younger. Garland may be traded; Dontrelle Willis may be made available but they're simply not as good as Burnett - and the Cards don't have near enough to get Santana. So Burnett is the best starting pitcher that the Cards have a realistic shot at this offseason. How good is he?

In his 2 years in Toronto, he's thrown 135.2 IP and 165.2 IP, respectively - not great numbers by any means. Still, in 2007, despite only making 25 starts, he was 39th in VORP and 47th in SNLVAR - both much better than anyone on the Cards' roster not named Wainwright. He was 5th in MLB in K/9. He also has had a ground ball % greater than 50% each of the last 4 seasons. According to MORP, in '07 his value was more than $15 million. According to the Hardball Times win shares calculator, his value was right at his salary - about $12 million.

Using azruavatar's method that LB used to evaluate the starting pitching free agents, Burnett's expected PRAR for '08 is 56 (better than Schilling's) and his expected win shares are 11.3 (about the same as Schilling). This puts his PRAR value at $12.3 million and his WS value at $11.9 million. So, despite the fact that he's coming off a season that is considered less than his best, one in which he was hurt and gave credence to all those concerns about his health, Burnett was STILL worth the salary the Jays paid him. He's averaged 150 IP the last 2 seasons; if he can increase it to 180, his value would go up considerably. He has 2 seasons of over 200 IP - this would add a ton to his value. If he only throws 150 innings, he'll probably still be worth the $12 million in his salary.

Of course, it's not that simple. The Cards would have to trade for Burnett, rather than simply signing him as a free agent. The Jays, even if anxious to unload Burnett, aren't just going to give him away. The Cards won't be the only suitors. You'd have to think that Duncan would have to be included in any deal. The Cards won't trade Rasmus and Reyes isn't anywhere near enough for Burnett so, if the Cards are to receive Burnett, Duncan would have to be the principal involved.

Last week I made the comment that

"It would be the height of irresponsibility to trade a productive, middle of the order hitter for a "proven veteran" with just 1 year left on his contract - i.e. Renteria or Jon Garland."
But Burnett has 3 years left on his contract. If the Cards trade Duncan for pitching, and don't use him to acquire younger pitchers in the mold of the Giants' Lowry and Sanchez, this is the type of pitcher they should consider - a solid, top of the rotation starter (#1 or #2), with multiple years left on his contract.

The problem is the opt-out. My original take on the opt-out was that it helped Burnett, to the team's detriment. Boy, I'm glad we didn't agree to that! But maybe not. The opt-out effectively turned Burnett's 5 year contract into a 3 year contract - just the kind of contract I liked from the beginning. This is only true, of course, if Burnett pitches well. If he doesn't or gets hurt, the team is left on the hook for the entire 5. Nevertheless, it's beginning to seem, to me at least, that the opt-out wasn't all that bad. Burnett's injury likelihood would increase as he gets older so he would be more likely to pitch well and opt-out, thus turning the contract into a 3 year contract. He would leave the team as the likelihood of his being injured went up. But here we are - with 3 years left and only 1 until Burnett can opt out.

The question is - should Burnett's contract be treated as a 3 year contract or a 1 year contract? If a 3 year contract, a Duncan (assuming the Jays would be interested) for Burnett trade seems much more palatable. If we see it as a 1 year contract - it looks like the Duncan for Garland trade I called "the height of irresponsibility."

We could, of course, make the trade and then renegotiate the contract - guaranteeing the final 2 years, thus making it a guaranteed 3 year contract. But we couldn't do this without adding some value to the contract, as the player's association (and Burnett, of course) never would agree to Burnett giving up his right to be a free agent at the end of the year w/o receiving anything in return. Additionally, if he does become a free agent at the end of the year, Burnett would likely receive at least a 4 year contract. So here we are again needing to guarantee 5 years ("maybe we could offer the opt-out after 3?," he says half-jokingly). Maybe the Cards could get the guaranteed 3 or 4 year contract by upping the value to $14-15 million per year. But will Burnett be worth that kind of cash in his age 34 and 35 seasons? He wasn't worth that in his age 29 and age 30 seasons. Would the Jays even allow the Cards a window to negotiate an extension before completing the trade? I doubt it - they won't need to.

The Cards have an opportunity this offseason to add a very good starting pitcher who is reasonably priced and not in his late 30's or early 40's. He wouldn't be some retread, or a Dave Duncan project and would make the Cardinals contenders (at least for the NL Central) next year, and probably in every year Burnett is under contract. We could sign a free agent OF to replace Duncan and bolster the rotation w/o appreciably hurting the offense.

But the details are tricky. Is he worth 4 years of a solid hitter like Chris Duncan? How should his contract be evaluated when determining the players to be traded? Should the Cards attempt to renegotiate the contract and, if so, under what parameters? Maybe Antonetti can begin to work on this dilemma tomorrow.

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I'm sure there's someone who will
argue that it's Burnett's mechanics that are problematic (and they may very well be, although I'm unconvinced of that) but John Gibbons did a horrific job handling Burnett this season.  He got very little extra rest and was left out to throw 120 pitches on 3 consecutive outings.  Unsurprisingly, he hit the DL shortly thereafter.  He's a top of the rotation starter especially considering the bump from moving to the NL Central out of the AL East.  

All that being said, I'm not sure Duncan makes sense for a team with Adam Lind waiting in the wings and Lyle Overbay entrenched at first.  Duncan is a pretty awful fielder which hurts his value as an overall player.  The Cardinals are much better at producing position players than they are pitchers so acquiring (and keeping) someone like Burnett could be a big boost for the team even if it requires giving up Duncan.

by azruavatar on Oct 28, 2007 3:28 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

excellent post by the way
I do so enjoy getting them in the wee hours of the night.

by azruavatar on Oct 28, 2007 3:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've read
that the Jays are kind of down on Lind -- maybe it's the .278 OBP in half a season. Matt Stairs, who's a FA, got over 350 ABs this year w/ them and he's worse in the OF than Duncan. But, yeah, I wasn't sure if they'd be interested in Duncan. If not, we can't get Burnett. There's no one else, save Rasmus, who's worth it and we're not trading him. If they won't Duncan, the whole thing's moot anyway.

by chuckb on Oct 28, 2007 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

plus...
... the Jays have Frank Thomas in the DH spot for another year.

by kindred on Oct 28, 2007 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No. Friggin. Way.
Besides the fact that the Jays have absolutely zero incentive to trade AJ Burnett given the setback of the Yankees and the fact that its the playoffs-or-bust for JP Ricciardi in 2008, the most that you guys can muster as trade bait is Chris Duncan?!?

I understand the need to replace Reed Johnson in right but with Adam Lind waiting in the wings and free agent outfielders a lot more available than #1 starters this off-season, it would be moronic for the Jays to make that kind of deal.

The writer of this article seems to have a lot more knowledgeable about American League baseball than those that have left comments. There's not a  snowball's chance in hell that the Jays would tamper with one of the two cornerstones of what's arguably the best rotation in baseball for a right fielder.  Especially not now with the Yankees seemingly faltering and the Jays in a make-or-break mode. The Jays have a couple of needs - trading for a young outfielder is pretty low down on the list.

by jaysfan on Oct 29, 2007 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes!
I LOOOOVE the late night posts. I agree with ya, hc--now is the time to snag AJ. He's just tarnished enough that it's finally possible without being ridiculous. Like LB, I've wanted him on the team for quite some time, and agreed that his old price was too high (f-ing Boras). Though not a Dunc "project", I think Dunc could sure help him iron out some problems, and by all reports he'd love to play here. If this ends up as the first feather in Antonetti's cap (IF of course he accepts the job and finds Aj interesting), I'll be very happy with the direction of this club for 08. If they pass on Eck (unless he's willing to play for mucho-cheap), I'll be even happier.

by rockin redbird on Oct 28, 2007 4:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

BTW
In-depth piece on Boras in this week's New Yorker (evil pumpkin cover). An extremely worthwhile read. The guy's an even larger a-hole than I thought.

by rockin redbird on Oct 28, 2007 4:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Link
The Extortionist.

An interesting article, for sure.

Nice column, HC. Trading Duncan away would hurt pretty bad—and just when he convinced me he's for real. (Not to beat a dead horse, but if only Reyes had emerged as a top-of-the-rotation starter like we'd hoped...)

by liam on Oct 28, 2007 5:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

RR...
The guy's an even larger a-hole than I thought.

You're just discovering this now? ;-)

Seriously, though, Boras reminds me of Gordon Gecko from "Wall Street". Except in Boras' case, greed is not only good, it's mandatory.

by cardsrul on Oct 28, 2007 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hear hear
+1 for late night posts.

This may have been mentioned in another thread, but I hadn't noticed it so perhaps not.  Bernie says Joe Mather has been added to the 40-man roster.  He would have been a minor league free agent, or eligible for rule-5, or something; can't quite recall what his status was but I know we stood a chance to loose him if we didn't add him.  

I think there's still a couple of unfilled slots on the 40-man.  I could also see a few of the relievers (Cavazos, Dove, Hawksworth, Falkenborg, Jiminez) get the boot if we need to make space for anyone.    

"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Oct 28, 2007 4:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

AJ scares the crap out of me
dude gets hurts way to often. but man can he pitch. i fear there are other teams (take the dodgers&angels) who can offer better deals for him as well. DUNK, Anthony & a throw in probably wont be enough to pry him away from the jays. i'd be for getting him, but ONLY if the Cards didnt have to give up DUNK & Anthony + a ton of young kids. i'm afraid that's simply not going to be enough.

as a creature of the night, i too love the late night posts H-Town.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Oct 28, 2007 5:33 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He scares me too. He's been on the DL
TEN times.  He's a fine pitcher, but if we trade for him, who's going to take the 10-12 starts he misses?  Remember, we are already waiting on Mulder and Carpenter to return.  
If they could get him they probably should, but I'd still worry about him getting hurt.

by jillsinmo on Oct 28, 2007 6:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is a concern
but Thompson/Wellemeyer/Hawksworth/Parisi could take those starts. He is injured frequently -- only taking 25 starts last year and pitching 135 IP the year before. The point of the post was that he's been so good that he justified his salary despite missing all that time. Is he likely to miss that much time every year? He does have 2 200IP seasons. And even if he throws only 150 innings -- he'll still probably be worth the $12M -- he's that good.

by chuckb on Oct 28, 2007 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

With so many injuries, you have to
wonder if the next one might be the "big one" you know the one that knocks him out for a season or a season and a half.  
I'm not opposed to getting him, not at all.  It's giving him a long term guaranteed contract that concerns me.

by jillsinmo on Oct 28, 2007 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's a concern
he's already had the TJ surgery -- back in '04. I don't really know if that makes him more likely to have another big surgery or not. Somebody, somewhere probably knows that, but I don't. It seems to me it's always a risk w/ a long-term contract to a pitcher.

by chuckb on Oct 28, 2007 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the year after Burnett had 200 IP
he pitched resp. 23 and 135 innings. sounds the same as: shortly after he had 3 outings of 120 pitches (in 2007) he landed on the DL. there are some big risks acquiring him.

also you've to give up 'some' talent and give him a long term contract for him to give up the opt out clausule.

altogether i'd prefer to look for someone else.

From Curaçao, the friendly island in the Caribbean

by Johnny64 on Oct 28, 2007 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Burnett
Gives me mixed emotions. I was really wanting them to sign him, but was happy they didn't when I saw what Toronto gave him. Guy is a stud, but injured a lot.

Late night posts...thumbs up...although for me they are daytime posts. (In Hong Kong a couple of weeks)

Anybody else find it funny that the east coast media is still fixated on the Yankees every day even with the World Series going on? You can't make announcements during the World Series, so the Yanks are making a series of non-announcements like: "We will name a new manager on monday" "We are talking to Arod about an extension that might be for 5 more years at $150MM." The media has put more emphasis on the Yankees since they were dumped out of the playoffs than when they were in.

My first priority for the offseason: (In case Antonetti is reading this stuff.)Get the best defensive shortstop you can find. With a bunch of groundball pitchers you have to field the ball. This team's defense last year was pathetic. Health will improve the corners and the outfield, but a good defensive shortstop will make the entire pitching staff better.

How about handin' me another helpin' of those mashed taters...thank you very much!

by Elvis on Oct 28, 2007 5:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No Thanks!
As much as I like AJ's potential, he will be 31 next season- thats retirement age for pitcher's with Burnett's injury history.  Just check out his comparables at beseball-reference.  Seven of ten of these guys were done at 31.  Two pitched for a couple more injury filled years and the last is Kerry Wood.

Furthermore, why would you want to make a trade like that in what figures to be a rebuilding year?  Let's just say the Cardinals can renegociate the contract to remove the opt-out clause.  The next year, maybe two, figure to be rebuilding years.  So you are banking on the guy being productive at age 32 and more importantly 33?  That isn't a bet I'd like to make.

If there is anything that the last several years should have taught us, it is trades like Duncan-for-Burnett are not a way to build a championship, at least not on a budget.  We should look for young, cheap arms, not old expensive ones.

 

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 28, 2007 9:43 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

BTW, another solid job HC
And I love it when I can wake early and read VEB.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 28, 2007 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

link
i went to the link you put up, and noticed under salaries that burnett had only been paid 15.4 mil in his first two years in toronto

does that mean he is really owed 39.6 mil over the next 3 years instead of 36? or was there a signing bonus involved or something?

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 28, 2007 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i might be alone here
but i dont want burnett
hes injury prone and will choose to leave if he has a great year
hes already chosen the money over the cardinals once
we need to be looking at lowry or snell

if jason bay is really available, id go duncan/reyes/prospect for bay and one of their young arms

RESIGN JIMMY BALLGAME....HE SHOULD RETIRE A REDBIRD!

by benstl on Oct 28, 2007 10:21 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You aren't alone
but I am not sure you could get Bay for Dunc and Reyes.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 28, 2007 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why?
Bay can actually play defense without looking like a Keystone Kop and would be a great #2 hitter.

by cardsrul on Oct 28, 2007 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

When does each go FA
Isn'r Bay under control for only one or two more years, while the Cards have Dunc for 4(?).  That could be a factor.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 28, 2007 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Burnett and the opt out clause
For me, the opt out clause makes the AJ contract much worse than either 1 year or 3 year contract.  Why?  You get the worst of both scenarios.  If he pitches well in 2008, then he opts out.  If he pitches poorly or gets injured in 2008, then he declines to exercise the option and his club gets hung with a bad contract.  It's a lose-lose for the team.  Our team has to be smart going forward.  We've shot craps on the Mulder trade, extending Edmonds, extending Carp, the long-term Rolen contract.  Another move like the aforementioned will set this franchise back many years. Instead of using our few trade chips on a pitcher on the back end of his career w/ a high market value (AJ), I would much rather see us target a less established youngish starter with upside--somebody else's Reyes.

by jjray on Oct 28, 2007 10:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

generally...
when trading for someone with an opt out clause the team will negotiate to have the player waive that right.  if it isnt waived the asking price will be much lower.

by dmb60614 on Oct 28, 2007 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

negotiating
one word for the concept of negotiating with AJ to make the last 3 years vest--Boras.  Ergo, the idea of trading for Burnett makes little sense.

by jjray on Oct 28, 2007 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Boras
is not Burnett's agent.  I don't know where that misconception was created, but he's represented by Derek Braunecker and Mark Rodgers.

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/toronto-blue-jays_05.html

by chuckb on Oct 28, 2007 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow....did you see that his contract
calls for 8 round trip limosine rides from Maryland to Toronto for his wife?  It made me giggle.  I thought of some of the riders that performers got in their contract to play at venues.  
I guess that transfers with him?

by jillsinmo on Oct 28, 2007 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Color me conflicted...
Yeah, the Cardinals gotta get a "top-of-the-rotation" pitcher, and yeah, Chris Duncan probably is the best "bargaining chip" the Birds have to trade... but I've just got the feeling that the Cardinals may need C-Dunc more than anybody else would!

My "hunch" is that Bill DeWitt is going to offer the GM job to Antonelli; and hire "Mo" if Antonelli turns down the gig. No matter what the new GM does to address the Cards' need for starting pitching (and a righthanded bat), it will narrow the Cards' options "down the road"...

I'm of the opinion that Scott Rolen and Jim Edmonds will have "bounce-back" years... although I don't expect either of them to return to their 2004 levels of production; I do think they'll give the Cardinals better production than their replacements did last year.

Whoever the Cards' GM is, he'll benefit from the fact that he won't have the media pressure to make a "splashy" move. After all, even with all the bad mojo the Birds had to deal with this past year, they were still in the race until their September slide! I may be "drinking the Cardinal Kool-Aid", but I don't think they're that far away from returning to "contender" status.

As for Burnett, I think his injury history and the Cardinals' recent "track record" of dealing with injuries makes acquiring him more risky. A.J. seems to be one of those guys who's "Hell when he's well... he's just hurt a lot!"

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Oct 28, 2007 11:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

AJ fire sale
Thanks HC.   Great post, and I also like picking it up early (even if I wait until after coffee to reply).

So we lost the bidding war because we only offered 4 years, whereas the Jays offered 5, but now we realize it was really only 3 with a 2yr coverage for long term disability (better than Aflac).

So the Jays paid two years of cash, got two reasonably productive seasons, and can now anticipate getting a few good players in trade.  How can anybody now think the Jays made such a bad deal as they were accused of at the time of signing.  I don't think so.

But, to whoever gives the Jays some players for the right to put out the cash for year three, plus the 2 yr LTD plan, and the opportunity to renegotiate with Boras; they will be stuck with one of the memorably bad deals of the century.

We blew the opportunity to get AJ when we needed him.  It would be disastrous to "take advantage" of the opportunity to get him now.  The real deal was lost, just move on.

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Oct 28, 2007 11:53 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

especially since
the contract was so heavily backloaded, $7M for 2006 and then 12M for 07-10.  Ricciardi is going to get 2 years of AJ plus prospects for $19M ($1M less than the AAV of the 4/40 we were offering) or 3 years for $31, just $1M more.  Depending on what the undisclosed buyout on the option we offered was, maybe less.

WJ got owned on that deal, for sure.

by SleepyCA on Oct 28, 2007 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

While
I liked the idea of signing Burnett for a 4 year deal awhile back, coming into 2006 with a relatively healthy Mulder and Carpenter anchoring the top of the rotation. When you have the preceived pitching depth that Cards had in 2004 and 2005, taking a risk on an injury concern like Burnett can be very worthwhile.

Now, 2 years later, the Cards are burdened with major money sunk into 2 top of the rotation starters who are have/ are spending significant time on the DL (Mulder and Carpenter). Is it really wise to throw another 14 or 15 million a year after Burnett, another starter with major injury concerns? I say no.

by JMedwick on Oct 28, 2007 11:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

There it is again!
the poll on the right-hand side. Last night -- 391 votes -- 66% for Sox, 33% for Rocks. Today, 409 votes -- 65% for Sox, 35% for Rocks. So, in the last 12 hours, the Sox have gone to 3-0 in the series and people are voting for the Rockies? Maybe it's just to keep me commenting on it!

by chuckb on Oct 28, 2007 12:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No way
Pitchers are not more valuable than impact hitters.  Duncan helps us every day in the lineup, AJ would probably help us about 1 in 8 days.  No deal.

I also would rather rent an older pitcher for a year and not give up the offense.

If you need to trade duncan, call the giants who are in desperate need for OF help.  They also have young pitching.  Trade young hitting for young pitching (Cain) is a much more fair deal.

by DriverZn on Oct 28, 2007 12:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think Cain is a pitcher
San Francisco would give up....I don't even think they would be that stupid.  He's the kind of guy you build your staff around.  If they were dealing Cain, I would expect them to ask for Pujols.

by jillsinmo on Oct 28, 2007 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

duncan for cain is pretty lopsided
in the cards' favor; i can't see the giants biting without a bryan-anderson-sized throw-in. just glancing at VORP --- which doesn't penalize duncan for his bad defense --- duncan was 11 runs less impactful than cain in 2006, and 30 runs less impactful in 2007.

granted, duncan's limited playing time skews that somewhat, but since he still hasn't proven that he can hit left-handers you'd have to consider him a 3/4-time player. i'd love for the cards to get cain, but i would be surprised if chris duncan alone were enough to land him.

then again, sabean gave up all those young arms for aj pierzynski . . . .

by lboros on Oct 28, 2007 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My guess would be that Duncan's defense
is so horrible, that he's not much of a trading chip unless we're talking about him ans a 1B or a DH.
Cardinal fan from Washington

by JI on Oct 28, 2007 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I suspect we need an add in
But if you are our GM you have to give it a try.  There was a quote a while back that he was resigned to having to give up an young arm for bats.  

Would I throw in Anderson?  thats tough.  Cain would be under our control for a few years while Anderson is stil an unknown.  Its a tough call.

by DriverZn on Oct 28, 2007 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anderson should be used in a deal
for Ian Snell.  The Pirates need a competent catcher and the Cardinals need pitching.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 28, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anderson wouldn't be enough
how about Yadi for Snell?

by chuckb on Oct 28, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think
it's amazing how undervalued the amount of base runners that don't even attempt to steal because of Yadi. Just think about the amount of guys who aren't on second because of him.
  I'm not saying that trade proposal wouldn't help the Cardinals, for snell is a phenomenal talent. But it just seems that Yadi is severely under appreciated on this site because one of his most valuable assets isn't able to be processed by a series of statistical equations and put into a 4 letter anagram.

by The Butcher on Oct 28, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but what is that value?
how many stolen bases per year does yadi save --- 10? 25? 50? and what's the run-prevention that results from those prevented SBs --- 5 runs? 10? 25?

i'm not asking to be flip, i'm asking because i really would like to know. his ability to cut off the running game has a measureable value --- we should be able to estimate it. it it's worth 10 runs a year, a better hitting catcher would make up the difference. if it's worth 30 runs a year, that's something else again.

by lboros on Oct 28, 2007 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You want
a better hitting catcher, bring Simba out of retirement, or overpay for Posada and get less defense. I'll take Yadi, thankyouverymuch.

by cardsrul on Oct 28, 2007 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lotta very good hitting catchers out there
mauer, victor martinez, posada, russ martin, mccann, josh bard, varitek, johnny estrada, saltalammacchia, napoli, johjima, snyder . . . . yadi's more valuable than some of these guys on balance, because of his defense and his low salary. but he's entering his arbitration years now, which means he'll be making 7 figures annually.

if the stick doesn't improve, he's gonna be overpaid too once the salary gets to $3m a year or so. he's still young; still might develop as a hitter.

by lboros on Oct 28, 2007 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, but Anderson's MiLB stats
aren't THAT much better than Yadi's tracking at the same age offensively.  

I obviously don't have the splits to determine it but I'd wager that the 4 or 5 XBH that Anderson has picked up per season in the minors is a result of his better speed.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 28, 2007 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hang on there!
Yadi's 3 years in the minors -- above Rookie ball

@ Peoria, Midwest League -- .316/.384/.700
@ Tennessee, Southern League -- .321/.332/.653
@ Memphis, PCL -- .384/.372/.756

Anderson's 2 years above rookie ball

@ Quad Cities, MW league -- .377/.417/.794
@ Springfield, Texas League -- .350/.388/.738

Anderson has yet to play in the hitter friendly PCL.

Total steals/CS above rookie ball --

Molina 2 SB/ 8 CS
Anderson 2 SB/ 7 CS

Anderson's not beating out a lot of bunts or infield singles.  He's just a good hitter -- considerably better than Molina ever was.

 

by chuckb on Oct 28, 2007 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comparision
Midwest League at 19

          AB    R    H   2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB   SO    BA   OBP   SLG   OPS
Molina    393   39  110  20   0   7   50  21   36   .280 .316  .384   .700
Anders    381   50  115  29   3   3   51  42   66   .302 .377  .417   .794

+ - BA   -12   +11   +5   +9  +3  -4   +1  +21 +30

Age 20 Season

          AB    R    H   2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB   SO    BA   OBP   SLG   OPS
Molina    364   32  100  13   1   2   51  25   45   .275 .321  .332   .653    
Anders    389   51  116  15   1   6   53  32   77   .298 .350  .388   .738

+ - BA    +25  +19  +16  +2  +0  +4   +2  +8  +32

Anderson was better, I'm not arguing that.  But enough to negate the defensive value to equated earlier?   Again, how much of Anderson's better hitting is his being more apt at turning a ball to the wall a double than Molina?  How much is based on his position in the lineup (don't know where either batted).

Molina was no slouch in the minor leagues.  Last season was one of the first he'd ever begun to hit like he had in the minors.  And he's only 24 years old.

If he is going to progress as a hitter, will it be THAT much more than Molina?

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 28, 2007 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

SBR
Would a subscription to Baseball Prospectus show me Yadi's "stolen base runs"?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5222

by Don Zero on Oct 28, 2007 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great question
I needed a project to get me away from grading papers.

Last year the average NL catcher had .74 SB attempts per game against.  Molina's was .48.  So having Molina behind the plate saved the Cards an average of .26 SBA/game.  Over the last 3 seasons, Molina has averaged 111 games/year so, by multiplying .26 * 111, we can estimate that Molina saves the Cards about 31 SB attempts per season.  

The average SB success rate in the NL last season was approx. 20% so, if Anderson had average success throwing out baserunners, there would be 24.7 more successful stolen bases against him than vs. Molina.  

According to "Baseball Between the Numbers", in 2004 each successful stolen base was worth .1593 runs.  There's no reason to believe that that number is appreciably different in '07 or would be in '08.  Multiplying that times the 24.7 successful SB's means that having Anderson behind the plate would yield an additional 3.93 runs per season -- let's call it 4.  So the value that Yadi saves the Cards in terms of stolen bases NOT ATTEMPTED is 4 runs, or less than half a win.

This does assume that Anderson has average success in throwing out runners and that teams would attempt to steal against the Cards an average number of times.  It's possible that he's not quite an average thrower but LaRussa's teams do pay a lot of attention to the running game and have quite a bit of success in holding runners on base.  I think it's reasonable to assume that Anderson would be an average receiver in this regard.  But, even if we assume he's far below average, the difference isn't going to be any more than 1 win, in terms of stolen base attempts saved.  It's possible Anderson's offense is already there.

by chuckb on Oct 28, 2007 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

FYI
Gary Bennett and Kelly Stinnett, last year, averaged 0.63 and 0.62 SB attempts per game -- more than .10 LESS than average.  And Bennett was awful at throwing out runners.

It's safe to say that Yadi's worth to the Cards, IN TERMS OF STOLEN BASE ATTEMPTS PREVENTED, is about 1/2 a win.

by chuckb on Oct 28, 2007 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

very well done
thanks for doing the leg work on that.  Of course Yadi's actual value also includes the extra guys he does throw out, but that is very easy to quantify as well.

It sure seemed like Stinnett and Benett gave up a ton of SB's last year.  I'm shocked that the number is so low (not questioning it, just surprised).

by SleepyCA on Oct 28, 2007 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I appreciate
all of the effort. And I wasn't trying to be flip either. But I just have to respectfully disagree. I think that there are other ramifications involved that just can not be measured by numbers.(i.e. The Butterfly Effect) But I generally feel that way about most of the numbers. I find what everyone here does very interesting however.

by The Butcher on Oct 28, 2007 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The assumption here is that
preventing the running game is solely the basis of the catcher.  Pitchers can have both a positive and negative effect on the running game, but it still appears that Yadi's impact on the running game is only a few runs.

by azruavatar on Oct 28, 2007 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that was the question that was asked
that's why I was careful to indicate that that research only dealt w/ those runs that were saved through SB's not attempted. I realize that he saves some runs through runners thrown out as well.

by chuckb on Oct 28, 2007 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

are we assuming
that when players decide not to run at all, they are making that decision based on Yadi and not our pitchers ability to hold runners?  The point is really me picking at minutiae and your overall point of Yadi's limited impact re: runners not attempting is still valid.

by azruavatar on Oct 28, 2007 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn't at all
as I pointed out in my corollary, I suggested that runners don't even run on Gary Bennett, who couldn't throw me out. The Cards' pitchers do a great job holding runners on -- it's not just Molina.

by chuckb on Oct 28, 2007 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yaddi
was boned in the WS he should have been MVP. He HAd a far better series then Eck.

by nybirdfan on Oct 28, 2007 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Duncan isn't an outfielder to begin with
He's a good hitter, but he's only a platoon player, and much of his value with the bat he gives back with his glove. I think Duncan for Burnett would be a steal.
Cardinal fan from Washington

by JI on Oct 28, 2007 12:59 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Team Value
Besides the estimated value added by Burnett per projections, he makes the team a much stronger playoff team and less prone to longer slumps.  

I mean, he will probably start next season healthy when we are down Carpenter and Mulder.   Should we extend him beyond next year, we will have 2 legitamate number ones (AJ and Carp) and a strong number 2/3 in Wainer.  Both Carp and AJ will be likely to miss a legitimate stretch sometime over the stretch of a few years.   But, odds are it won't come at the same time.   A rotation without one of the three would likely still remain competitive and in years all are healthy reaching the playoffs we will be formidable regardless of the shape of the offense.

by RedbirdRay on Oct 28, 2007 1:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i agree w/ you ray
having carp / burnett / wainwright as a 1-2-3 punch would make stl a pretty fearsome team in october. for that reason i would be very tempted to trade for burnett, even if the cost were duncan + b anderson.

my only hesitation is whether the rest of the team is in any kind of shape to capitalize on a stellar rotation. we could end up w/ a situation like the astros when they had clemens / oswalt / pettitte in hand, but were so flimsy everywhere else that they struggled to make the playoffs ever year (or missed altogether, as in 2006).

any time you have a chnace to get a diff'nce maker in the rotation, it's hard to say no. if the opp'ty presents itself w/ aj, it'll be a tough call.

by lboros on Oct 28, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carp in 2008?
Larry,

Your projected top-of-rotation assumes a healthy Carpenter in basically a "return to form" circa 2005-2006, does it not?  With a healthy, effective Carpenter, that 1-2-3 punch you mention makes a reasonable argument for a Burnett deal as described.  However, I'm concerned (just a gut feel based on Carp's injury history, no real data or insider information) that we might be left with only the shell of 2005-2006 era Carpenter -- thus negating the advantage of loading up for October 2008 by adding Burnett.

Right now, what's the approximate median of  projections (medical, tea leaf or otherwise) for Carpenter's performance level by the latter portion of the 2008 season? Everything seems to hinge upon the risk level associated with what Carpenter can/cannot do after his return.

"Requiescat In Pace - 2007 Zombie Cardinals"

by AustinBOB on Oct 28, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not scientific....
... but i might expect something akin to Carp's 2004 level of performance. he was coming back from a serious injury then, hadn't been in "game shape" in several years. he ended up pitching very well that year, but nothing like his '05/'06 level of dominance. expecting him to come back to Cy-like form by July is unreasonable, but expecting him to pitch like his '04 self isn't (even if it is optimistic).

by kindred on Oct 28, 2007 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i don't know what to expect for 2008
but for '09 and 2010, there's no reason the injury would prevent carp from returning to ace-like form. john smoltz had TJ surgery at age 33 or so (a year older than carp) and returned to #1-pitcher form; matt morris had it in the late 1990s and came back as a top-of-rotation workhorse in the early 2000s. two current front-of-rotation pitchers (erik bedard and aj burnett himself) are TJ survivors.

by lboros on Oct 28, 2007 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yup...
although none of those are good examples. Smoltz came back great... as a reliever. Morris (23), Bedard (22), & Burnett (26) were all a lot younger. but i think the overall point is right: Carp should be fine in '09.

however, in '08... who knows? he might not pitch at all in '08. if he does, he will be nearly two full years removed from competitive pitching (excepting opening day this year). he shouldn't be expected to jump right in and perform at his usual level. so if we're hoping for a Carp/Burnett/Wainwright '08 playoff push, maybe we ought to rethink it. and since any acquisition for Burnett will likely be a single year, it shouldn't necessarily be with the playoffs in mind, since even making the playoffs is a pretty extreme long-shot.

by kindred on Oct 28, 2007 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Smoltz came back great as a reliever
not just a reliever, but the best reliever in baseball, and then he proceeded to have a Cy Young caliber season in 2005 to go with two pretty incredible seasons in 2006 and 2007.  It might be a good idea not to rush carp back in 2008, and limit him to the bullpen to reduce the stress on his arm, but there's no reason to believe that he will never be able to return to form.

by Valatan on Oct 28, 2007 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's not what i meant...
... i just meant that Smoltz's success as a reliever  doesn't translate to Carpenter having the same level of success as a starter. it could happen, of course, but Smoltz isn't really a relative data point. neither are any of the other guys (i don't think) because of their age differences.

expectations for Carp in '08 should be modest and qualified. beyond that, we can be more optimistic. that's why i said that something like Carp's '04 level would be a reasonable hope for next year.

by kindred on Oct 28, 2007 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Injury history
Burnett won't be a difference maker if he is hurt, which given his age and history seems pretty likely.  I'd pass on Burnett and look for someone youger, even if it were percieved to be "riskier."
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 28, 2007 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand the concern, Z,
but isn't having Burnett for only four months a season better than not having him for those four months? And especially if his possible rotation spot is handled full time by a Looper-ish 5-point-something era guy?

Just don't think of it or bank on what Burnett can't do -- be healthy for a full season -- and think of what he can do: be a front of the rotation starter for 2/3's the year.

In the day and age of Lilly/Suppan/Meche at 10 million a year, Burnett for 11 (even if it's only for four months a year) seems like a decent-to-good deal. (Better than Joels deal, at least.)

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Oct 28, 2007 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Burnett vs. nothing
I agree, Alex, that having Burnett for  however long would probably be better than not having him; however, I think the larger question is, is four months of A.J. Burnett better than six months of Looper level starting pitching, four years of Chris Duncan's bat, and six years of whatever minor league throw in would probably be required to complete the deal?  

Personally, I don't think it is.  Having Burnett pitch here is very intriguing, I won't argue with that, but the talent it would cost the team to bring him here would just be too much, in my ever so humble opinion.  

The 2007 offseason: Butter? Or Steel?

by the red baron on Oct 28, 2007 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not that I'm not high
on Duncan, I just think that Ludwick could give us the same value (re: 265-ish avg, 25-ish HRs) for around the same price -- fractionally higher. He'd have a lower OBP, but much better D. So it's a minor loss in LF (in my opinion) and a huge gain at SP.

But, I'm almost always wrong, so whatever.

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Oct 28, 2007 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

a few things...
  1. extending Burnett will likely cost at least $15mn/year for four years. he'd likely get more than that on the open market (assuming he finishes next season healthy), and he's already proven that he won't give StL a discount. the only way to get him at $12mn is to accept that it's only for one year.
  2. his VORP and Win Shares show how good of a pitcher he can be (and in the AL East, no less). but if we're only going to expect 25 starts from him, then you have to factor in the expected performance of his back-up for 8 starts or so. so, what you're adding is 3/4 Burnett + 1/4 Thompson/whoever. so that slot in the rotation isn't going to look as positive if you map it out that way, with 1/4 of the starts going to a below-average (possibly replacement-level) pitcher.
  3. you say: "We could sign a free agent OF to replace Duncan and bolster the rotation w/o appreciably hurting the offense." true, but the added salary from replacing Duncan should be included as an implicit cost of trading for Burnett. there aren't that many OFs on the FA market who can be expected to replace Duncan's expected level of performance, and any of them will likely cost $7+mn/year for several years. so, in net, assuming we extend Burnett @ $15+mn/year, we'd be paying something like $22-25mn/year to improve one roster spot (plus the loss of whatever other prospect might go to Tor in such a trade). we could probably sign Glavine AND Schilling for that money, keep Duncan, and not have big-money commitments (and the accompanying injury-risks) past this season.
so, unless we're gonna get a sweetheart deal, i'd rather not make the trade.

by kindred on Oct 28, 2007 2:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i would rather...
sign a schilling or glavine for a year, and then if burnett is good next year and opts out, break the bank for him, this would cost much more in dollars, but no talent

and if he is hurt or doesnt produce, you wouldnt be on the hook for him

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 28, 2007 3:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

the best deal that yr was not burnett
it was for the guy playing in the WS..it was by far the best move that yr
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Oct 28, 2007 8:34 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What guy?
Do you mean Beckett?  Not many teams had Hanley Ramirez to give up for him.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 28, 2007 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

probably true
its a rare trade in that both teams benefited, but i remember being on here and the conversation then..we all knew he was available, true they didnt have that piece and wouldnt take lowell either..

I think though from that yr thats the only move i would have made...im glad burnett didnt sign..for reasons others already posted...injuries.yrs etc..

07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Oct 28, 2007 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't want him
because I thought we had enough talent and money devoted to the rotation with Carpenter and Mulder.  In hindsight, even with Burnett's injuries, he'd have been an improvement and more than likely would have kept us in the race this year, been a nice addition to the playoff roster last year.

I'm now of the firm belief that we can't possibly have enough talent on this team, even if it costs $130 M a year.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 28, 2007 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ya they were very similar IMO
to the giants..some aging guys, then by end of the yr young guys..not as many dinosoaurs as the gmen though..
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Oct 28, 2007 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hardcore have you found any chase versions of eck?
i googled it but no dice
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Oct 28, 2007 9:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It isn't even out
yet. Won't be until March.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 28, 2007 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

justsaw the entire 08 list
it makes me mad they make several versions of schmidt,Ryan mantle but no LOu or nething..
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Oct 28, 2007 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Left Field Defense
I swear, I'd play better defense than many if I was out there everyday.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 28, 2007 9:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

just had one of the things we missed from the 04
series a misplayed ball by manny, but not as bad as 04.
07 Cards more drama than a daytime soap..with replacement actors

by punchinjudy on Oct 28, 2007 9:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Those Poho devils
the incessant drumming from the Red Sox bullpen is really irritating me.

by Big Mike on Oct 28, 2007 9:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Top Three Reasons to Hate the Red Sox
  1. Beating the Cardinals in 2004
  2. Beating the Rockies in 2007
  3. No beating the Mets in 1986
Anyone want to add more?
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 28, 2007 10:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Just because?
How's that?

Oh, and ARod will opt out...per SI.com.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 28, 2007 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess ARod and Boras are excluded
from the no big announcements during the world series rule.

by outraged on Oct 28, 2007 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

meh
they figured it was over.

by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 28, 2007 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sure
  1. their fans
  2. their fans are spoiled brats (BC undefeated, this, patriots beating the shit out of everyone, celtics preseason favorites and on the cover of SI and ESPN Mags preview issues)

by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 28, 2007 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

on boston..
true, that is one annoying fan-base. Patriots i can't argue, but BC will lose and eventually fall out of the national title picture. as for the celtics, they have ALOT to prove. Garnett to the C's sells, that's why everyone is picking them and why they are on all the covers. No one knows how it will play out. No point guard, no post guy (garnett really isn't). It's still the spurs-suns league.

but hell, any fan base would be thrilled to have 2 championships in one year and they'll prob get that. ugh what a terrible world series, barring a col comeback here

by kalmavet on Oct 28, 2007 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I may end up hanging myself from
my balcony as sports coverage everywhere this week is dominated by the Patriots v. Colts.

by azruavatar on Oct 28, 2007 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are right
  1. New England Fans
  2. 2004
  3. 2007
  4. 1986
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 28, 2007 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ironically
I vividly remember a commercial not too long ago.  

It was a couple guys sitting around a bar that resembled cheers, talking in NE accents.  They go "hey how bout the sox???" then it was silent...then they said "how bout the bruins??" silent again, then "how bout the pat's?" silent still.  Then it faded out and said "isn't it great being from St. Louis?"  

Then the Pats and Sox systematically dismantled the heavily favored Rams and Cards a few years later.  

"How depressing is it being you? Would you equate it to being a lifelong Cubs fan?"

by rocKStark5 on Oct 29, 2007 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

haha
just another great week to avoid ESPN, it's a wonderful way to live really. i highly recommend it

by kalmavet on Oct 28, 2007 10:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

oops
sorry, still new haha. that was supposed to be a reply to azru

by kalmavet on Oct 28, 2007 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not really a footbal fan
in reality.  I'll sit down and watch it, but ever since Dick Vermeil left STL I just want to give the Rams (specifically Mike Martz and Scott Linehan) a kick in their worthless asses.  If they win one god-damn game this year I'll be surprised.

I plan on reading this all week as I'm sure they will tear into the colts and the patriots.

Also, this might be one of the most awful boring World Series that I've ever seen.

by azruavatar on Oct 28, 2007 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tulowitzki and Hawpe
will have nightmares for years about how they seriously damaged their teams chances of winning this World Series.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 28, 2007 11:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

a-rod
cardinals have any, i mean ANY shot at having a shot at a-rod?

by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 28, 2007 11:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

because of Pujols
No.

Not that Pujols wouldn't want A-Rod...but how can you pay both without insulting one by not paying more than you do for the other player?

by Harknights on Oct 28, 2007 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They are professionals
Pujols wouldn't mind making less than A-Rod.  Trade Rolen to the Yanks for Betemit and sign A-Rod to play short.

by rrvwmr on Oct 28, 2007 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um, I think A-Rod is clearly the better player
A'Pu may hit for a higher average and maybe even a higher OBP, but A-Rod hits for way more power in a tougher league, and plays a more demanding position defensively.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 28, 2007 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i disagree
but don't feel like getting in a debate right now.

by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 28, 2007 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't say clearly better
A-Rod does play a more demanding position, but not well. Pujols, according to some metrics, is rediculouly good at 1B.

A-Rod had a good year this year but is close to Pujols the last couple of years.

this is totally a beer or tacos question.

I also don't think there is any other player close to these two.

by Harknights on Oct 28, 2007 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tony would disagree with you Zubin
he would say Albert can play gold glove D at any position on the diamond at any time.
people forget Albert came up as a 3rd baseman, so i think he can hold his own vs ARod at 3rd.

now SS is another story altogether. ARod wins in a land slide.

now do the Cards have a chance at getting him? sure, why not? Dewitt & CO got the cash. at that's what ARod wants. he doesn't want a ring. i honestly think he could care less what uniform he wears. the only thing he wants is the dough.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Oct 28, 2007 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and Fuentes isn't exactly
helping matters tonight with a first-pitch homer to Kielty..

by Petkovsek on Oct 28, 2007 11:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

When
did Tim McCarver start making Joe Morgan sound downright knowledgeable?  Between his claims that no less than three different pitches were all gyroballs, his inability to keep track of players' names, and the complete lack of actual research he seems to do into the tendencies of the teams he's covering, he is actually giving big Joe a run for his money.  

When did this happen?  

The 2007 offseason: Butter? Or Steel?

by the red baron on Oct 28, 2007 11:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I believe
Fox is standing over Bud Selig and stepping on his chest by going on and on about the AROD thing. That's a big F-U to Bud and letting him know who's really in charge around here in my opinion.
  Maybe I'm over reacting. I've been known

by The Butcher on Oct 28, 2007 11:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Boom
We got ourselves a ballgame.

by Big Red on Oct 28, 2007 11:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Okajima taken deep back-to-back nights
pretty rare I'd say...

by Petkovsek on Oct 28, 2007 11:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Play for 09, not 08
Possibilities for 09 rotation:
Carp, Wainright, Reyes, Mulder.
A lot of questionmarks.  Don't add another one w/ Burnett.  How much for Johan in 09?

by rrvwmr on Oct 28, 2007 11:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Reyes?
He's BARELY in the plans for '08.  IMO, he'll never see '09 in a Cardinals uni.

by Big Red on Oct 28, 2007 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reyes = Cheap + Young + Pitcher
Yeah, I admit he has underachieved and his fastball looks pretty hittable, but don't give up on cheap young pitching prospects so quick, especially in a rebuiding year.

by rrvwmr on Oct 28, 2007 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um management has said reyes isn't in the plans
for 2008.  For all involved, I hope we trade him.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 29, 2007 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even if we were forced to pitch Miles, Spiezio
my grandmother and Tony's cats, I'd give up on Anthony Reyes.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Duncan's on record
as saying he's always wanted Tony's cats. he thinks they've gotten into some bad habits with their mechanics & with the right adjustments they could be very solid additions to the rotation & could win a lot of  games for the Cardinals.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Oct 29, 2007 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All of 'em except Boots
He gets a little cocky and refuses to throw the 2-seamer.  I heard Tony sent him to live with his daughter once after only bringing him home for 3 days.  

I also think TLR yelled at Sparky (the dog) in front of the cats for drinking out of the toilet after being told numerous he was not to do so.

Sparky was visibly shaken and humiliated.

by Big Red on Oct 29, 2007 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sparky is a rookie
and should know his place on the team.
he has not earned the right to drink from the toilet yet.
Tony will let him know when he's earned that right.

until then Sparky would be wise to drink from the dog bowl in the kitchen like the rest of the rookies.  

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Oct 29, 2007 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The post-game press confrence
was held and Tony clarified on Sparky's behalf.  Apparantly Sparky was confused.  He lost track of whether he was in in the kitchen or the locker room.  He thought he was in the kitchen and the toilet was his white ceramic water dish.  
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 29, 2007 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

c'mon, in fairness to tony,
it wasn't just the toilet-drinking...sparky had been wagging his tail earlier in the week, too.

by acham8206 on Oct 29, 2007 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sparky's an idiot
I can't believe we wasted a 3rd round pick on him!!

by Big Red on Oct 29, 2007 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just pray that no matter how big an idiot
Sparky is, we don't waste our money trying to rely on the 9 year old Tabby with an arthritic back that can't even make it up on the table anymore and let's every ball of yarn rolled in it's direction get by it.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i called Sparky's agent
trying to get a comment, and all i got was a very harsh no comment.
i guess some where along the way i had a run in with Sparky's cousin that didn't turn out to well.

(if you don't understand. see my signature below)

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Oct 29, 2007 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh what i would give
for one of the Rocks to end paps career right now just like Albert ended lidge's two years ago.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Oct 29, 2007 12:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

world champions
st. louis cardinals for one more minute.

by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 29, 2007 12:04 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That was lame;
most anticlimactic world series champs ever.

(If we were the worst champs ever, why can't they be the most boring?)

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Oct 29, 2007 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ugh
three of the last four series have sucked.

by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 29, 2007 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

absolutely.
time to bust open the 2006 dvds and relive the one that didn't!

by acham8206 on Oct 29, 2007 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

world champions
boston red sox. to be supplanted by the cardinals one year from tonight.

sweeps suck.

by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 29, 2007 12:08 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

well this sucks
kind fitting that the season from hell ends with one of the worst teams in the game winning the title.

at least is wasn't the flubs.

i guess i should congratulate them, but i just cant.  
i want to say go screw yourself boston. but i wont. but i really want to.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Oct 29, 2007 12:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i will!
go screw yourself boston!

the red sox, BC, patriots, celtics, and bruins can go (um yeah, not going to say that).

by stlcardinalsfang on Oct 29, 2007 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can say "go screw yourself Boston"
but I can't say it to the Red Sox.  I happen to like MOST of the guys on this year's version and am not too unhappy they won.  Besides, they were the best team in baseball all year long.  Plain and simple.

by Big Red on Oct 29, 2007 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's Chris Antonetti time!
Let's have an announcement tomorrow!

by chuckb on Oct 29, 2007 12:25 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

indeed
i never thought i'd say this, but i'm glad the season is finally over. terrible world series, and terrible postseason over all (after an amazing last week of the regular season in the NL).

7 series, 5 sweeps.

and espn was covering the a-rod situation as the final out was being recorded -- shameful.

bring on the antonetti announcement.

re: duncan, i don't want to see him go, but the team will have to shed at least one (possibly two or even three) OF out of edmonds, schumaker, taguchi, ludwick, ankiel, and duncan. i wouldn't mind seeing the latter three all stay and be the opening day starters, but that obviously won't happen.

i still wonder what the chris duncan/dave duncan situation will have to do with his whereabouts next year.

by willievinceterry on Oct 29, 2007 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

man if i'm mike lowell, i'm pissed
ECK got a ZO6 Vet for his MVP. while all mike gets is a hybrid tahoe & a malibu? what a joke.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Oct 29, 2007 12:29 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'll say it
Congrats to the Red Sox.  This is the first time since at the Yankess dynasty (1999 or so) where the best team actually won the World Series.  And just like with the Yankees, now we have a Red Sox dynasty to look forward to.  Yuck.
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 29, 2007 12:33 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

clint hurdle is all class
dude was holding back tears just now during his interview. poor guy, he & the Rocks deserved better than to be swept by such a classless team like boston & their fans. boston should check themselves & take a page out of Hurdle & the Rockies book.

they may be the best team in baseball, but they are far from the best people in baseball.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Oct 29, 2007 12:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

FWIW
From Will Carroll's BP chat tonight:

"Matt (UW): What do you think the Cards can expect out of Carpenter from now on? First the shoulder and now Tommy John. At age 32, do you think he's going to come back strong or should Cards fans be worried?

Will Carroll: Couple good years, then a rapid decline. Horrible extension. Dealing with Carpenter is going to be the biggest challenge of Chris Antonetti's third year in St Louis."

by azruavatar on Oct 29, 2007 12:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i dont know if i should be happy
or sad. good news about Antonetti, but bad news regarding Carp.

i wonder who told Will Antonetti accepted the Cards offer?

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Oct 29, 2007 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd be more concerned with what
to do with Rolen the next 3 years, not just IN 3 years.

by Big Red on Oct 29, 2007 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So they should expect a couple good years
and then a rapid decline, from here on out?

I can live with that.  

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks to VEB and Larry.
Now that the season is over, I'd like to throw some thanks to the community and especially Larry for making this site possible.

I don't know about the rest of you, but where I live I don't have any close friends that are real (die-hard?) Cardinal or baseball fans.  This blog not only makes my fan-ship enjoyable, it makes it possible.  Even though the season was a dissapointment in the on and off-field results, I really enjoyed it.

Thanks to the game threads, the satire about Tony's Cats, Dave Duncan's Toliet and everything and everybody else.  You make baseball fun.  

The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 29, 2007 1:12 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Same here
There isn't a Cardinals fan for miles where I'm at, and other than discussions with my grandfather's on the occasional phone call and the family mocking of Anthony Reyes, Kip Wells and David Eckstein, I'm disconnected from St. Louis baseball.

The satire and in-depth perspective on the team is better than anything I could find elsewhere.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

tell me about it
as some one who lives in ohio as well hardcore it sure sucks living where they think ohio state football is the only sport played on planet earth.
I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Oct 29, 2007 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And the curtain comes down on 2007
I second that opinion as I share Zubin's status where I live.
"Requiescat In Pace - 2007 Zombie Cardinals"

by AustinBOB on Oct 29, 2007 2:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So the Cardinals have tried
to get as many 2002 Angels as possible.
Now they've got two 2003 Mariners pitchers.  After we acquire Armando Benetiz, what 2004 team will we try to snatch the discards from?
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 2:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The 2004
Cardinals. Renteria!
Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Oct 29, 2007 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm all for it
Renteria at SS, Matt Morris in the rotation, Larry Walker hitting coach, Dan Haren in long relief...

....oh wait.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Think there is any way we can get Cliff Lee?
Cleveland sent him down to AAA, yet they are on the hook for a contract that features:  

08:$3.75M, 09:$5.75M, 10:$8M club option ($1M buyout)

He sucked VERY HARD in 2007, however for $3.75 next year, $5.75 M in 2009 and $1 M in 2010, is he worth the flyer?  Is his career shot?  

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 2:31 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

can he be any worse than Maroth or Mulder?
i doubt it.

sure, why not? Dave's done more with less in the past.
if Antonetti really is taking over i can see him trying to work something out.

I'm going to go try to find a puppy and kick it. - Brad Thompson And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Oct 29, 2007 2:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

$11M
When did $11M over 2 years become a "flyer"?
The St. Louis Cardinals- 11 time World Champions!

by Zubin on Oct 29, 2007 7:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kip Wells and Sydney Ponson
Since we paid them 2 years in a row.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 8:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yup.
No one gets a 1 y/$1 M contract anymore.  It's the 'old' 1 y/$4 M.  
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 29, 2007 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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