rolling out the welcome mat

by lboros on Oct 23, 2007 8:48 AM EDT in News Comment 83 comments

a couple days ago the Sports Frog placed all 92 mlb, nba, and nfl franchises into a ranking matrix and spat out the results. the cardinals checked in at #4, behind the lakers, yankees, and celtics and just ahead of the spurs and the packers. the sf giants, dodgers, bears, and cowboys rounded out the top 10. whole lotta mystique in that group --- but what the hell are the san antonio spurs doing at #5? no offense intended --- lovely city, fine team --- but would you consider them a more storied franchise than the packers? the dodgers? the cowboys? i bet jerry jones did a spit take all over his laptop when he read that post. . . . .

bernie cites the cards' tradition as a prime reason that la russa decided to return for another couple of seasons. it's a humanizing piece and worth the read, even if tlr's professions of commitment to youth and statistical analysis ring more than a little hollow:

According to La Russa, young players are more enthusiastic, tend to stay healthier, and are more willing to learn.

"As opposed to these guys who got it all figured out," La Russa said. "There's a risk that (the older players) will lose that fire in their gut, because they've already sampled postseason success, they've already achieved financially, they have security.

"So if you ask me, to pick between a team that is just over the edge or brand-new, I'll take the brand-new."

the most interesting thing about these remarks is their possible implications vis-vis the general manager situation. tony doesn't have to make nice with the public, which is already solidly behind him; he doesn't have to make nice with jeff luhnow, who isn't his boss; he doesn't even have to make nice with dewitt, whose desire to bring tony back has been unconditional. but la russa might have an incentive to make nice with the new gm. of course, if the new gm is mozeliak, there'd be little need to utter pleasantries; he and mo have already established a working relationship. but if the gm were coming in from outside the organization, tony might have an interest in proclaiming his adaptability, if for no other reason than to present a unified front: we're all on the same page. the rift in the franchise is healed. at bottom, tony's an organization man --- fiercely loyal to his bosses and his players, dead serious about his responsibilities. if his bosses declare certain priorities, those become tony's priorities too --- in word, maybe even in deed. maybe i'm reading too much into his comments, but i think (hope) he was rolling them out as a welcome mat for the new regime.

about 10 days ago bernie wrote that "there will be no surprises; La Russa will know in advance who the GM is, and in one form or another, he will have given a thumbs-up." that was consistent with la russa's previous statements that he couldn't commit to returning without knowing who the gm was going to be. with la russa now officially back on board, we can safely conclude that the new gm has been identified. la russa's return has been a fait accompli since late last week --- wasn't official, but the only issues left undecided were the details of the contract; the core issue (stay or go?) had been resolved. at that point, one of the leading gm candidates, chris antonetti, still hadn't been talked to, because his team (the indians) was still in the playoffs. within hours after antonetti's team got knocked out, la russa's deal was finalized and his return as manager was formally announced to the public . . . . .

coincidence? maybe so. here's what tony said during his press conference yesterday (hat tip to Birdland; emphasis added):

Q: Tony what was the determination for you to get it done today?
TLR: I think the two issues –- what goes on with the front office -– it’s not the issue I thought it would be when we first talked about it. To be perfectly honest -– and he can hold me to it, everyone can hold me to it -– if he hires somebody tomorrow and that guy doesn’t want me, they can tear the contract up and I wouldn’t hold them up. I wouldn’t want to be here. I just don’t think that’s going to happen.

"if that guy doesn't want me . . . " doesn't sound like mozeliak. i think antonetti's the guy. call it a hunch.

if he's offered the job, i don't see how he can turn it down. the vacancies in anaheim, atlanta, minnesota, houston, pittsburgh have all been filled, and his moment as baseball's "it" boy won't last forever. besides, it's a primo job; we're the #4 franchise in all of sports, dammit. all signs point to this guy. here's an outstanding piece about him posted at USS Mariner last winter. read. enjoy. if it's him, we should know within a very short time.

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well

considering the Cowboys, Packers, and Dodgers have all had down years in this century, and the San Antonio Spurs have been the most consistently successful NBA franchise since Jordan's Bulls, and they've been labeled by many as the "model franchise" in pro sports... I think they deserve their spot.

by Jhusk on Oct 23, 2007 8:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Let's hope we know something soon...

There's a podcast with Antonetti from September 19th at Baseball Prospectus...

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/radio/audio/bpr_070919.mp3

It may be subscriber only, and if so, my apologies. I did subscribe to BP Radio via iTunes, so that should be an option to listen to it, if anyone's interested.

"The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Bob Gibson to Tim McCarver

by player2bnamedl8r on Oct 23, 2007 8:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for the link.

It worked for me.

BTW, I think that Larry is on to something with the timing of the announcement of TLR's return and Antonetti being "free" to talk to the Cards now (and I said as much yesterday).

by cardsgirl95 on Oct 23, 2007 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Great work

thanks for the leak

by chuckb on Oct 23, 2007 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for letting us listen in on that

I've read articles about Antonetti, but I've never heard him speak. He sounds like someone who Tony could talk to comfortably--he spoke about context, strategy, team leaders, and maintaining an overall balance on the team.

by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're all welcome...

glad I stumbled upon it. :)

He sounds very down to earth...I think he'd fit in well.

"The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Bob Gibson to Tim McCarver

by player2bnamedl8r on Oct 23, 2007 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've heard TLR say the exact same things

about veternas and youth several times during his Busch Beer Chats last year. Nothing he said to Bernie about young guys sounded new or "hollow" to me. But that's only because I've heard him discuss these same sentiments in the casual call-in format of the Beer Chat. TLR had no agenda when talking about this last year.

by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 9:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

veternas = veterans

by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

if it is antonetti

i will dance a naked jig.

Future Redbirds

by erik on Oct 23, 2007 9:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I may speak for many

That's OK. No need to ruin such a good day for the rest of us. ;)

C70 at the Bat

by Cardinal70 on Oct 23, 2007 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

nothing

If we picked up Antonetti, I don't think anything could ruin that day.

by jroman on Oct 23, 2007 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

n/t

"A great catch is like watching girls go by; the last one you see is always the prettiest." - Bob Gibson

by stl tyler on Oct 23, 2007 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

it would be

one of our better offseason transactions in recent memory, that's for sure.

On with the youth movement!

by aet15 on Oct 23, 2007 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wish we could rate comments here.

This would get a 4 at parent dKos.

"I don't know how we did it, but we did it." -- Jim Edmonds

by vico on Oct 24, 2007 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I share your hope of rolling out the welcome mat

and appreciate your talking about TLR as acting on loyalties. But some of what you said makes him sound like he's simply driven by self-interest and that the best way to explain him is by finding out what he wants to accomplish and then filling in the blanks as to why he's doing something. It just makes him sound cold and calculating, and not very human.

You may not have intended to do that, but it seems like lots of people read Tony that way. I just don't agree with that characterization. I think he does care deeply about his players and baseball and the Cards' tradition. I think he runs into problems because he's a little too human and passionate, not because he's a calculating operator.

by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 9:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The piece

at USS Mariner is a great read, well worth your time. The skill set he could bring as GM sounds like what the Cards need.

by cardsgirl95 on Oct 23, 2007 9:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

There was some debate

a few days back about how great a job the Cards' job was. Despite its organizational problems re: Luhnow/Jocketty, and despite the fact that the farm system is ranked in the lower 3rd in MLB, I've always thought this was a pretty good job. The payroll is always pretty high and the ownership seems to have a commitment to winning. We can quibble about whether it should be a few $ more or whether DeWitt should've sold the pissers from old Busch -- but there's a pretty solid base.

The team has the best (or one of the best) hitters in baseball locked up for 3 more years + an option. It has one of baseball's best prospects on the way. There's a great fan base that draws 3 million + every year. How many jobs in MLB are truly better than this one -- despite its warts? Not that many -- maybe 5?

The problems w/ Luhnow would have to be ginormous to turn someone off this job. Antonetti will get a GM job, to be sure. But is it likely to be as good a job as this one is? Doubtful and he's no fool. He knows that if he doesn't take this one, he'll likely end up in Cincy or Texas or someplace like that. Maybe LA but how much better is that job than the one in St. Louis and how long would you want to wait for a "maybe?"

by chuckb on Oct 23, 2007 9:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ton't boss

And how could you turn down a job where you would be Tony LaRussa's boss???

by cdb on Oct 23, 2007 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Notice that

LaRussa qualifies his comment in Bernie's article about the young team vs. the old team by saying:

"I'd rather have a group of young guys with true talent than I would (older) guys who are on the (declining) side of their careers."

True talent should be the words everyone notices.

I have never doubted that when given high quality young players, LaRussa has been willing to play the youngsters and make them an important part of his team. That said, from the late 1990's onward (i.e. during most of LaRussa's time hear) the farm system has been pretty barren, producing one clear major league starting talent every two or three years.

Alan Benes, Ankiel, Morris, Pujols, Drew, Haren, Wainwright. Most of that list is starting pitchers not, postion players.

I think much of LaRussa's reluctance to play the Cardinal youngsters is that he does not see the likes of Ryan Ludwick or John Gall before him as the types of true talents worth pushing aside vets for.

by JMedwick on Oct 23, 2007 9:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think

it comes down to.

If Tony doesn't thinks rookie isn't good he would rather pay a vet to be bad. We may not agree. Why pay a Vet $2M to be no better than a $300K rookie? I guess if that's his blind spot there isn't much to do.

I think was are also reading too much into what is going on. Most likely Tony doesn't want a GM who wants to blow-up the team. He wants to be back but not with a 110 lose team.

So for better or worse. Let me be the first to welcome Tom Glavine and his 1 year deal to the Cards. Put me down for November 20th as his signing date.

by Harknights on Oct 23, 2007 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Polanco? Duncan?

Jiminez was a useful player for a few years

by Valatan on Oct 23, 2007 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sure

There were tons of young somewhat useful players who, if only fleetingly, stepped up for the Cardinals, including the likes of Bud Smith, Jiminez, Reyes, and a slew of relievers. That said, none should be described as "truly talented" and none are / could have been as skilled and valuable as those listed above. Those listed above were top tier talents.

Duncan probably belongs on my list above.

Polanco, while useful, is not unique and his skills are pretty replaceable. Coco Crisp probably falls into the same category as Polanco.

by JMedwick on Oct 23, 2007 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Polanco's grown into quite the player with DET

he hit for a 122 OPS+ from 2B, while winning the AL batting title. His .846 OPS was third amongst all MLB 2bmen to Jeff kent and Chase Utley. In his half season with detroit in 2005, his production was similar, and he was the ALCS MVP in 2006.

I'd never take back the Rolen trade, but that's much better than the production you'd get from a spare part.

by Valatan on Oct 23, 2007 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Stupid Agent

It'd've been nice if his agent hadn't accepted arbitration lo those years back and we could have signed him back as a FA.

by liam on Oct 23, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Correction:

Mags and Ichiro passed Polanco late in the season. Still, being third in the AL in any offensive category (even if it just BA) ain't bad for a 2b

by Valatan on Oct 23, 2007 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can you say

Career year?

Because I would be willing to wager what we saw in 2007 is about the maximum Polanco can be as a player. That is not take anything away from Polanco. Solid defense, a good opb, and a good batting average from a below average offensive position is certainly valuable, and a system that can produce players like Polanco is a pretty valuable addition.

by JMedwick on Oct 23, 2007 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I doubt it.

Considering Polanco is the ONLY player in MLB who hit over .300 with 2 strikes, I think he will maintain this production for awhile. Not to mention he did not commit an error all of last year.

by The Butcher on Oct 23, 2007 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Polanco is 31

and this is the first full season he has ever hit like this. The record just does not support what you say.

by JMedwick on Oct 23, 2007 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

True talent

Does it really take a HOF manager to spot the "true talent" of guys like Pujols, Molina, Ankiel, etc? The problem with Tony is his reluctance to use young players that have talent better than the veterans he already has even if that talent is not overwhelming (see Brendan Ryan vs David Eckstein or Aaron Miles). I want to give Tony the benefit of the doubt, but do you really think a guy like Hoffpauir is going to get a chance to win the second base job next spring over Adam Kennedy? I'm from Missouri Tony, Show Me!

by lefty fan on Oct 23, 2007 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can Hoff Play short spot?

by nybirdfan on Oct 23, 2007 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Duh Short Stop

by nybirdfan on Oct 23, 2007 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I doubt Hoff can

But the real question is whether Kennedy can.

by JMedwick on Oct 23, 2007 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kennedy can't

Read some old BP reports on him when he was still a minor leaguer—he played short in the minors only because he was the best of bad options.

by liam on Oct 23, 2007 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hoff...

Can we officially start calling Hoffpauir: "The Hoff"? On opening day we could have him ride into the stadium in a black 1982 Pontiac Trans Am with William Daniels (voice of KITT) introducing him. How do we make this happen?

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Oct 23, 2007 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

think i suggested this

several months ago, along with the slogan "don't hassel the hoff"

Hello, playoff watching

by nycbirdo on Oct 23, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

addendum

not that i'm probably the first one to come up with this

Hello, playoff watching

by nycbirdo on Oct 23, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hofpaiur can probably play

short spot...I don't he is over about 5' 8"

by ridgesee on Oct 23, 2007 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Duh

"think" lord I'm worse than you.

by ridgesee on Oct 23, 2007 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it has to do with trust

TLR has known Duncan and Ankiel for a long time, so although they are new to this team, TLR has an established relationship with them and has had no hesitation about playing them.

Over the year, TLR started to talk about Ludwick, Schumaker, Wainwright, Thompson (when he was a starter), and Welleymeyer as people he could trust in terms of their competitive drive. A comment TLR made about Cairo is illuminating in this respect. TLR said he was playing him at the end of the year a lot because he knew what was in his heart, and by that, he explained, he knew that he would give it his all, no matter the circumstances or where the club ranked in the standings.

I don't think talent is enough. I believe TLR wants to see a certain character or approach that combines competitiveness and team work. I don't always agree with his assessments of people. But that's a different matter.

by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wainritght

AW was a product of the Braves org. We got him in trade.

Somewhere the real Cardinals front office is being held hostage.

by yer dog first on Oct 24, 2007 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wainright

not wairitght

Somewhere the real Cardinals front office is being held hostage.

by yer dog first on Oct 24, 2007 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

could be wainwright, too

just messin ;)

so much easier to say wagonmaker...

by SleepyCA on Oct 25, 2007 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

3 things from TLR's news conference stand out

in relation to lboros' thoughts about the new GM:

TLR said he thought Mo was a very strong candidate shortly after talking about good traits in a GM. So I'm not at all sure that a final decision has been made, or if it has, whether TLR knows about it.
TLR said that there should be a strong top-down authority that coordinates the organization so he seemed to be advocating for a strong GM who would integrate (and he repeated the word integrate in other interviews) all parts of the organization. I still think TLR would like to have Luhnow placed under the control of a strong GM. I wonder how much TLR has probems with Luhnow's judgments (assuming he has problems), and how much he has problems with numbers and analysis being a key part of scouting. The latter just sounds like it runs against his whole career since he's always been interested in numbers and analysis, and was in fact a pioneer in applying these as a manager.
TLR said that he thought the new GM would gain the stature and respect of Jocketty over time and that he would fit into the Cards' tradition. So if he knows the candidates, he sounds like he's comfortable with how they would handle continuinty, balancing tradition with a new direction.

by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 10:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Mo

Tony did start off his praise of Mo this way:

Q: Not to make Mo uncomfortable here, but what do you think would make Mo a good general manager?

TLR: Wears nice ties.

"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill

by lordsummer on Oct 23, 2007 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I missed Mo's name in that

I was listening on the radio and heard that question as applied to the GM in general. I thought it was a pretty funny sidestep.

by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

larussa

A little off-topic....but I think LaRussa's extension guarantees he enters Cooperstown wearing a Cards cap instead of an A's cap. So, at least we have that going for us...to paraphrase a certain line.

I for one will take Don Tony at his word. He's earned such trust, even if at times I have disliked his bearing and tactics. By all accounts he is a loyal man, a good soldier. Hopefully Bernie is correct that his loyalty and character will allow him to respect and follow the organizational imperative to develop from within.

by MrPlow on Oct 23, 2007 10:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

tlr only has to look around

and realize he has to adapt, and heck, even want to adapt. this year's playoff crop (cleveland, colorado, arizona) proved that winning the "moneyball" way, youth movement way, or whatever the heck you wanna call it is a good way to win.

Future Redbirds

by erik on Oct 23, 2007 10:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It also helped 2 of those franchises

that the Dodgers had an injury riddled year. Healthy Jason Schmidt=Dodgers Wild Card champs.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 23, 2007 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Ankiel HGH story also helped AZ

We won the first series with them before the all star break and had a good chance of winning the second series. Even with that story, we were competitive in every game. If our bullpen had held, we would have had a good chance of winning both series.

by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tony is one who can adapt

He does think outside the box -- always has. He revolutionized the use of the bullpen and has twice been willing to use the pitcher in the 8-hole to get his 3rd place hitter more opportunities to drive in runs. He's also eschewed (or tried to) the traditional use of the 2nd place hitter and instead tried to use someone w/ power -- to do damage early. So perhaps is seeing the writing on the wall.

by chuckb on Oct 23, 2007 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

One nice thing

About the possibility of Antonetti becoming our new GM is that we'll only have to slightly change our combo nickname for management. LaDunketty becomes LaDunketti - gorgeous simplicity!

That said, the Cubs do deserve my pity, but never my support.

by Solanus on Oct 23, 2007 11:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Nice

Well the nickname is the most important thing for me. lol

http://welcometojohnsonville.blogspot.com

by arthropodtodd on Oct 23, 2007 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nice, but if the "Integration" takes

place it might need to become LaDunkEttiMoLuhWitt.

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Oct 23, 2007 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's hillarious

and you're right, the change would be so easy.

by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Antonelli would be awesome.

I would be confident with him on board we could avoid becoming the Giants.

Cardinal fan from Washington

by JI on Oct 23, 2007 11:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Can be read two ways...

"if he hires somebody tomorrow and that guy doesn't want me, they can tear the contract up and I wouldn't hold them up. I wouldn't want to be here. I just don't think that's going to happen."

On the one hand, you can read Tony to mean that he's offering an out to Antonelli, or whichever other non-Moe GM is being hired, but you can also read that statement to mean that Tony thinks that Moe is the most likely hire, in which case the whole issue isn't going to matter.

by pfrench on Oct 23, 2007 12:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree...

That's exactly what I thought when I read his comments - if you're the new guy, I'm real easy to get along with and I'm on board with the new plan/direction - if you're who I think you're going to be (i.e. Mozeliak), well... it's a moot point, isn't it?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Antonetti as the new GM, but I've had this sneaky suspicion that the job has been Mo's all along, and the rest of this talk is just "HR pomp and circumstance." Why? They've started doing the same jumping through hoops type of steps at my company - no one can just get a promotion anymore, they have to post the position, accept applications, interview, and then give it to the person they wanted to promote in the first place.

Maybe I'm way off base here, and if I am, so be it. I've just had this feeling that it's been the Mo-show this entire time, and that anyone "new" is going to be the new Assistant GM.

by SmashedAtoms on Oct 23, 2007 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Excellent analogy..

That's pretty much become S.O.P. for most companies these days.

by cardsrul on Oct 23, 2007 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, but not quite

Baseball is a small set of competitors. DeWitt made it clear that he had not conducted interviews like this before, and was interested in taking his time with it. It is an unusual circumstance that virtually all applicants are presently working for rivals, and also assured that each candidate is likely to stay in baseball and be a rival thereafter.

The opportunity is two-fold; to learn more of your rivals' present working notions, and also to prospectively establish a good ground for dialog with future trading partners.

Even if DeWitt gave Mo a great chance of being the choice, he can only learn more by interviewing the field. If initial phone contacts have assured him that each candidate getting the chance for a direct interview would prefer to retain tlr, he can appease tony's concerns before the process is complete.

If DeWitt makes the full tour, and still prefers to promote Mo, then his position will be better founded for the exercise. If he finds that a new talent can bring something into the organization, integrate the parts, and lead forward he can do that and keep Mo too.

Personally, my guess is that it is now down to a visit with Antonetti, but I won't be too surprised by either final choice. It appears he has done a good job of the process, and the outcome is likely to workout well.

Watching the Playoffs as Reigning Champs is not a bad thing.

by Birds on the Bat on Oct 23, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

very true

Absolutely there are positives to take away from the interview process, and you hit them on the head - as far as DeWitt is concerned, it's pretty much a win-win process for him and the organization, no matter what his decision is. As you've stated, he achieved:
a) gaining valuable intel on the competition,
b) retained Tony as manager,
c) possible new talent to work alongside Mo.
and all with little to no expenses.

My gut still tells me it's Mo... but as you stated, we're probably better off this way anyhow. If nothing else, we've got insight into other organizations operations now. So, right you are.

by SmashedAtoms on Oct 23, 2007 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

see braves

I don't think the braves interviewed anyone else did they?

by cdb on Oct 23, 2007 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Another interview

Here is an interview w/ Tony on 1380 this morning. Says all the right answerers, but takes a few swipes at Rolen. I really do think they will work together b/c they're both such pros, but it doesn't seem like a healthy relationship right now.

I had a Tony-esque boss in the Marines (another testosterone filled environment) and I hated him for four years. After I got out, about a year or so later, I realized him constantly hounding me -- with, as he will now willfully admit, a lack of tact -- was not just seeing my talent, but also seeing his old self in me. And now that I can see the forest through the proverbial trees, he was a really good boss; he definitely got the best out of me.

I think that's the deal w/ Tony and Scott; two hardheaded, talented dudes, who aren't best of friends, but their relationship pushes the best out of both.

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Oct 23, 2007 3:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for the link

"Scott's got a lot to do w/ that." He does put a lot on Rolen's shoulders for their relationship. I don't think the friction between them hurts either in their jobs. I wonder if some of it doesn't stem from Rolen's perception that the Cards' medical staff has screwed up the diagnosis of his shoulder(s). The trainer and medical staff were handpicked by Tony and Tony is kind of the face of the organization -- there might be some resentment there. This year the team wanted him to take a different approach than the season ending surgery that he had done and I don't think Rolen ever really considered their opinion.

by chuckb on Oct 23, 2007 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That

is a very interesting observation. I would love to hear an answer from DeWitt or La Russa re: Paletta's et al's lack of success in recent surgeries and rehabs.

Injuries have ruined the org over the last few years more than anything else.

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Oct 23, 2007 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Injuries

I almost put those in just the flat out bad luck category.

It's not like all of these guys are not looked over with a magnifying glass. Greg Maddux has never been hurt, so who knows.

Like why did injuries kill the Cubs Mark Prior and Kerry Wood. Those are probably the two biggest injuries to a team in baseball in as long as I can remember. Can you imagine at healthy Prior, Wood, and Z. Man that is scary, but we will never know due to bad luck.

Injuries are frustrating because they are pretty much out of your control.

by ICbirdfan on Oct 23, 2007 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

BUT proper diagnosis and

treatment are under their control to a certain extent-their team doctor has a poor record in this regard IMO. They really need to do an evaluation of the care the players have received. It's not exclusive to the Cardinals-the Cubs doctors seemed to have missed a torn/frayed labrum on Mark Prior for THREE years.

There is so much money invested in players, they really need to get this right because it's such a burden on the team when they're wrong......

by jillsinmo on Oct 23, 2007 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ellipses!!!

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Oct 23, 2007 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely!

But first they have to face the fact their models for evaluation and treatment may not be quite complete....

by DesmetMattdNYC on Oct 23, 2007 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

this type of discussion

may be out bounds for VEB...but if the injuries keep continuing....so will the complaining and at some point the medical staff may find alot of fingers pointing at them...Lets hope we have a lot less drama of this sort in '08.

by DesmetMattdNYC on Oct 23, 2007 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

To me,

injuries like Pujols, Enc, Carpenter, and Kinney are one thing;, those guys were hurt for the first (or second) time and are just the shrug "what are you going to do" type injuries.

But there have been too many bad diagnosis in the last few years (Mulder, Izzy, Edmonds, Rolen Duncan, Kennedy, Eckstein, etc.) to be a coincidence. The medical staff has a terrible record in the last few years.

(plus Pujols is basically due to suffer a year long injury at any point in time. I'd like to be confident in having a medical staff which keeps him healthy. That is going to suck when he goes out.)

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Oct 23, 2007 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree that there have been some

mistakes -- but it's not really important what I think. I'm not a dr. and could be dead wrong. There's a lot of nuance in medicine so it may be a fine line between needing a couple of weeks of rest and needing season-ending surgery.

But if Rolen PERCEIVES that mistakes were made and resents the organization and coaching staff as a result, this could be 1 source of the problem.

Let's face it -- this guy was on the path toward the Hall of Fame. He almost won an MVP and was a perennial All-Star. Now he's a guy who didn't even slug .400 last year. If he feels that the Cards' medical staff, and by extension LaRussa, is somehow to blame for his colossal regression, this chasm could be too great to ever mend.

by chuckb on Oct 23, 2007 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Health Care of Players is a giant

Pandora's box. 162+ games is a long season. IMO, by the time you "medically" intervene with injections or surgery it's already too late. Many of the medical staffs of teams are old school medicine. I've yet to hear teams doing group yoga...and really when you think about...what's more important than these guys staying flexible and loose? In general there is a very limited understanding of what wellness is in professional athletic circles. The consciousness is focused on production only, not body awareness. HGH and steroids are so helpful in helping with muscle recovery in the short term, meanwhile toxifying them in the long run.
IMO, the models these medical staffs look through needs to evolve...there's plenty of science out there to support this..but it(current models of treatment/therapy) has to get beyond paliative (instant feel better) measures.

by DesmetMattdNYC on Oct 23, 2007 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Misdiagnoses?

Izzy?

Edmonds?

Duncan?

Kennedy?

Eckstein?

Huh?

by silent_bob on Oct 23, 2007 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

All guys

who were still playing when they should have been (and eventually were) shut down.

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Oct 24, 2007 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We can say this on the outside yes

Yeah I think it is pretty clear those guys should've been shut down long before they actually were...but how many guys in similar situations weren't shut down and as it turns out didn't need to be? You are dealing with (very) incomplete information with results-based 20-20 hindsight.

Was Pujols slow start the result of injury they should've shut him down for? .327 .429 .568 says probably not.

Were Loopers mid-season struggles the result of injury they should've shut him down for? Well he recovered so obviously not.

Did Mulder tell them about the pain?

How many guys were playing hurt that could've been shut down over the years who managed to play through it effectively so you never even heard about it?

Etc, etc, etc.

2 week-month long slumps happen. You can't say "oh, he's banged up and struggling: game over". Guys tend to pull out of those slumps.

(The one exception I'm definitely going to agree with is Rolen...when he is screaming after every swing, yeah that's pretty bad)

Cheeseburger in paradise.

by joker24 on Oct 24, 2007 7:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget

Chris Carpenter. If he would have had the surgery shortly after his opening day loss, we would expect him to be back much, much sooner than August. That alone changes a lot of the priorities for this offseason.

by qwikimport on Oct 24, 2007 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No daily post today?

The news about no new talks with Eckstein is refreshing.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 24, 2007 12:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I hear ya

I am at work and I keep checking to see if a new post has be made for today.

I need some fresh stuff!!! Help!!!

by ICbirdfan on Oct 24, 2007 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was hoping someone would touch on the irony

of the Red Sox refusing to part with Delcarmen in the Todd Helton deal, thus killing the deal...yet now they must face him in the World Series.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 24, 2007 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

LaTroy Hawkins

I hope he's a World Series hero. I always thought Baker mis-managed his arm and head.

Go Rox!

by RedbirdRay on Oct 24, 2007 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Didn't want to hijack today's thread

But did anyone see this jackassery in today's Joe Strauss Live chat?

WE HAVE A NEW STADIUM,BUT WE ARE SO BEHIND INTHE MUSIC WE PLAY AT THE STADIUM .YOU LOOK AND SEE OTHER TEAMS ON TV AND HEAR DIFFERENT MUSIC IN BETWEEN INNINGS AND PLAYERS COMING TOTHE PLATE .IS IT BECAUSE WE LIVE IN SUCH A CONSERAVATIVE TOWN .THERE ARE A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE AND KIDS THAT ATTEND THE GAME .ITS LIKE GOING TO A CHURCH WHERE OLDER PEOPLE RULE THE ASSEMBLY AND PLAY OUT OF DATE SPIRITUAL MUSIC . ( IT RUNS OFF THE YOUNGER ADULTS ATTENDING CHURCH)AND PLEASE GET RID OF THAT ORGAN !WE ARE SOO BEHIND IN THE MIDWEST .

Literally everything about that question offends me. From the weird punctuation separated from the sentence they punctuate, to the CAPSLOCK, to the misspelled words, tothe inthe, the whining about Dirty Ernie's organ, the plea for more crap trendy music, the silly insecurity about living in the midwest...

If any of you wrote that question, I honestly hate your guts.

Like I said, didn't want to hijack today's thread with this and didn't think writing about how big a loser "Wayne Jackson" is merited a note to Dear Diary. But I hate 'im.

by liam on Oct 24, 2007 4:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

As a young adult,

I could not feel further than that guy. I love the organ and hate them playing "trendy" music, as most trendy music tends to suck.

Well, let's go to the old mill anyway -- get some cider!

by Alxfritz on Oct 25, 2007 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

x2

i absolutely despise the music at dodger stadium/petco park. In fact, the music is the only bad thing about petco, other than the nonexistence of parking, but it is so bad that it almost causes me not to want to go to san diego to see the cards play. Earplugs are almost a requirement (and i have a 15" sub in my car on a 2000W amp, so just "being loud" isn't the problem)

by SleepyCA on Oct 25, 2007 2:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs