Glavine?
According to Jeff Gordon I guess there is mutual interest b/w the Cards and Tom Glavine.
I have mixed feelings about this. Glavine will be pricey. On the other hand, he can still be a reliable 10 win guy. I personally like guys with better stuff - but it depends on who else they are going to add. In a perfect world they get a guy with a healthier strike out rate. I don't know if that guy is out there. He definitely brings some leadership.
On another note - I remember Albert saying something to the effect of Glavine not pitching well at all. Kind of a jerk comment. It'll be interesting to see what happens.
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64 comments
Comments
Albert also got in a fight
by Mr Redbird on Oct 23, 2007 1:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed...
by cardsphan04 on Oct 23, 2007 1:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If it comes down
by stl tyler on Oct 23, 2007 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
by Ray Lankford on Oct 23, 2007 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
diary
by cdb on Oct 23, 2007 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, sure
by nycbirdo on Oct 23, 2007 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Why don't we quit debating it and just sign them both!
by Ray Lankford on Oct 23, 2007 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Renteria isn't going to hit .330 again.
by JI on Oct 24, 2007 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
I don't see him hitting .330 again either, and he doesn't quite get to some balls he used to either.
I agree we can get by with our current SS or Ryan. We need starting pitching, as last season it was impossible to get on a win streak when our pitching was just awful.
by ICbirdfan on Oct 24, 2007 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Count me against
by aet15 on Oct 24, 2007 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's a tough call
In retrospect, on the list of WJ's biggest blunders, waiting too long to exercise Renteria's 2004 option (which voided the $6.5M 2005 option) and then letting him walk over a measly couple $M ranks up there with missing out on Burnett (though i was against the deal at the time) and the Haren trade.
by SleepyCA on Oct 24, 2007 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't get me wrong
by stl tyler on Oct 23, 2007 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the pujols -- glavine thing
So yeah, give him $10m to play here for a year before he goes home.
by SleepyCA on Oct 23, 2007 3:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Glavine contract
by wannabeGedman on Oct 25, 2007 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One year at $10M
by Zubin on Oct 23, 2007 7:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
there seems to be rampant inflation here
by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
by spants on Oct 23, 2007 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's getting 5 million in 2008
by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
where was it announced
by azruavatar on Oct 23, 2007 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Deferred payments like that normally are reported
As an example, I pulled out of a hat a pitcher's name who I knew recently re-signed and looked at his announced contract: From the Washington Post: "Bronson Arroyo and the Reds agreed Thursday to a $25 million, two-year contract extension through 2010. His extension calls for a $2.5 million signing bonus, payable in 2008, and salaries of...."
The P-D and other news organizations (including the W. Post) announced that Pineiro will receive 5 million dollars in 2008 and 7.5 million dollars in 2009. Because they did not stipulate a payment structure for the signing bonus, I assumed it was being paid in 2007. Maybe the Cards are not as disclosive about the details of contracts as other clubs (wouldn't that be a shock?) so I certainly could be wrong in my assumptions. But if I am, the bonus could just as well be pro-rated over two years.
by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not disagreeing
by azruavatar on Oct 23, 2007 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe the Cards do handle their contracts
by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
regardless of whether
by chuckb on Oct 23, 2007 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course he's paid the signing bonus
by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2007?
by dmb60614 on Oct 23, 2007 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"bonus for services yet to be performed"
But your second point does make business sense if the 2007 books close with the final game of the regular season. What is confusing, however, is that Pineiro was still under the Cardinals' 2007 control when he signed his contract (he could not negotiate with anyone except the Cards until after the World Series, at which time he would become a FA).
Are you sure the 2007 books close with the last game and not at the end of the world series? Or are you supposing this from other business experiences? I'm just curious because everything else in terms of new free agent contracts revolves around the world series date. Thanks for your business insight.
by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
supposing
i dont know when their fiscal year ends. they may actually have december 31 fiscal year. i know that mlb uses oct 31. at one point i've seen documentation indicating the orioles had a june 30 fye. baseball teams keep separate books for different purposes. there are books for tax purposes, books for the ways that mlb calculates salaries and books for however they want to think of things if it is different from the other books. we aren't concerned with their books for tax purposes. we are only concerned with how they think of the budget.
when they discuss the budget it just doesnt make sense to count pineiro's bonus for 2007. pineiro signs in 2007 and you count his bonus towards 2007 while free agent x signs on january 1 and you count his bonus towards 2008? makes everything too unwieldy and doesnt provide a good match of contract expenses and contract fulfillment. i dont believe owners think of things that way. if you want an insight into how the owners are thinking you can look at how mlb tabulates salaries for luxury tax and other purposes. the bonus is applied to the guaranteed years of the contract. while i understand mlb prorates it (...thats so teams can't squeak under the luxury tax by deferring salary to a year in which the threshold may be higher) and the cardinals may not, that is besides the point. the point is that the actual date of payment is never considered. the owners were involved in forming that rule and i believe it reflects how they think of expenses and the budget.
by dmb60614 on Oct 23, 2007 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was very interesting and helpful--thanks
by nycardfan on Oct 24, 2007 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps I can pick your brain about one last thing
by nycardfan on Oct 24, 2007 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
budget
when teams discuss what their player spending budget will be, it is not with regard to any calendar or fiscal year, but to a baseball season. there is an attempt to match player expenses to the baseball season. that player spending budget can be recorded in any way a team wants because it is for "internal" purposes only (not for tax, not subject to GAAP or any outside regulation). if you were to pick up some stl cardinals lp financial statements they may not necessarily reflect the budget as it is discussed in the news as those financial statements were prepared for tax purposes and for a fiscal year that may not match the baseball season. if you look at mlb corporation prepared salary lists they may also be different because mlb calculates things according to a specific formula and with a specific purpose in mind. we can disregard those lists as we are only concerned with what dewitt is willing to spend to put on a team on the field in 2008 (...what i am referring to as the player spending budget).
as to your question...what makes sense for tax purposes is irrelevant for our purposes. i am not entirely sure how it is recorded for tax purposes. if the bonus has already been paid in a lump sump, then for player spending budget purposes it should be counted for the 2008 baseball season in its entirety. it is the most logical matching of expenses to the baseball season. pro-rating it in that situation is just a paper transaction that results in no actual benefit to the team. an actual benefit would be to actually pay it in two seasons or to defer payment entirely until the second season, so long as no interest/below market interest rates are paid on any deferrals. as long as you arent spending money you dont have and there are no interest payments, it makes financial sense to defer the payments as long as possible.
by dmb60614 on Oct 24, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for taking the time
by nycardfan on Oct 24, 2007 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pujols/Glavine
by brafi on Oct 23, 2007 8:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Glavine
Also, it doesn't matter how hard a guy throws his FB if he can locate it and has a solid change-up, which Glavine does.
by thepainguy on Oct 23, 2007 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Over Simplifying
by brafi on Oct 23, 2007 9:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It seems to me like our team
by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glavine's Career Versus Cards
by orlando card on Oct 23, 2007 11:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A bonus in signing him
by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My worry
by Toddius396 on Oct 23, 2007 11:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He turned down the Mets
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 23, 2007 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
I do think there is some concern in Atlanta about being able to afford him. They have a lot of money tied up in Smoltz and Hudson, and a lot of dead money tied up in Mike Hampton.
by Toddius396 on Oct 23, 2007 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Word is
by stl tyler on Oct 23, 2007 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a $9 M base
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 23, 2007 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
another reason...
i am not too worried about the price. i think he will get around $10MM unless he really wants to finish up in atlanta. that is probably more than he is worth, but it would be for only one year. if it ends up being a mistake, its a mistake a franchise could live with. giving carlos silva 4/40 would be a much bigger blunder.
by dmb60614 on Oct 23, 2007 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glavine also reportedly was not happy
by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
#4-#5 starter...
by rocKStark5 on Oct 23, 2007 2:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Glavine
WHIP= 1.41
ERA= 4.45
Those two stats put him at league average. Now would he help our staff yes, but he is no longer a pitcher who is much better than a few games over .500 at best. So if we got him he is not a #1 or #2 starter with a WHIP of 1.41 and ERA of 4.45.
Rich Hill had a 1.19 WHIP and a 3.92 ERA.
Just saying that MR. Glavine is definitely in decline mode. Why do you want a guy in decline mode? He is not young, so it's not like we are trying to resurrect his career.
I like him but at this point in his career he can go to ATL and finish it out for all I care.
by ICbirdfan on Oct 23, 2007 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do we want a guy in decline mode?
by mynameistyler on Oct 23, 2007 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's declining
He's probably worth $8.5 - $9 M for next year -- paying him $13 would be wholly irresponsible and, if that's what it takes to lure him away from Atlanta, we should pass.
by chuckb on Oct 23, 2007 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
by stl tyler on Oct 23, 2007 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
older
Yes he is a safer bet than others in the rotation based on past performance, but he just seems to be losing it. Shea does not seem like a hitters park and his stats show that he was in decline. I just see him more as a #3 or #4 starter and the Cardinals need to save $13 mill for an impact guy if we are looking to spend that $$ this year on a FA pitcher.
by ICbirdfan on Oct 23, 2007 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I posted on MLBTR, also...
Look here, kiddos, even if we paid a full 13MM after incentives, who cares? The guy will toss 180+ innings and he's not Kip Wells. Need more convincing?
by mynameistyler on Oct 23, 2007 3:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thank god its not Wells...
by warpig2003 on Oct 23, 2007 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reyes
by Eckstreem on Oct 23, 2007 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you were born in the year he made his MLB debut
I keed, I keed :P
by Mr Redbird on Oct 23, 2007 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't know Gordo's source...
it's true that Mazzone isn't with the Braves anymore, but Cox and Smoltz still are, and it's still a promising team. the only way i see him not pitching for the Braves is if they decide, for some reason, to not offer him a contract or to seriously low-ball him. if they offer him anything remotely approaching a fair contract, then i'd be shocked if he didn't take it. if they don't, then i'd be shocked if he doesn't retire. and if doesn't retire, i'd be shocked if he ends up in StL.
by kindred on Oct 23, 2007 9:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He gave them the chance last off season
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 24, 2007 2:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true, but...
i'm not sure if Glavine would actually go for that. but that scenario seems much more likely than him coming to StL for less than 9-10mn.
by kindred on Oct 24, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not true at all
This year, they have 20 million in payroll coming off the books in the form of Andruw Jones and Bob Wickman. They'll probably trade Renteria's salary to us or the Tigers this offseason too. The Braves also have a new owner, Liberty Media, that is raising the team's payroll. Bottom-line, the Braves can afford Glavine this offseason unlike last.
The MLBTradeRumors article even has a link to the Braves' beat blogger and Atlanta Journal-Constitution writer David O'Brien saying the Braves getting Glavine this offseason is "close to a sure thing".
I really think it's Braves or retirement for Glavine. Maybe I'm wrong. Just a gut-feeling.
by Deep Throat on Oct 24, 2007 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
getting older?
I think Glavine would be a good fit for this team, and one of the big reasons why is that he won't require a long-term commitment.
The reason why people have advocated against signing someone like an Aaron Rowand this off-season is that:
- It requires a long commitment and while he's in his prime now, he probably would be in decline by the end of the contract, like Edmonds/Rolen now.
- It potentially blocks a player in our organization.
It's not about the age of the player necessarily, if the player is still going to be upgrade, a short-term commitment, and is potentially better than most of our other options.
I would love to see us go after either Glavine or Jon Lieber to help out the rotation, as Lieber would be a similar type of signing.
by mtalken on Oct 24, 2007 1:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"get older"
I agree that Glavine.
- is a one year commitment which is good.
- obviously doesn't block anyone which is good.
If the Cards are going to spend $13 million in one year they better get a difference maker. At this point of his career Tom is not a difference maker. His WHIP was 1.41 just the same as Anthony Reyes. Now Glavine is clearly better than Reyes and I bet he would probably win around 12 games with STL next season. Now that is not really a price I would pay for a 12 game winner. It's just a high price for a guy who is no longer a "impact pitcher". Tom Glavine is the type of guy who is a perfect #3 or #4 starter. He is the type of guy that would really help a team who has two very good starters for example Cleveland would be a great example of a team Glavine would help. CC and Carmona then Tom, he just rounds out the staff and adds stability. He is not going to be great but very solid. For $13 million one year STL could do better in my opinion. It is nothing against Tom it is more about our staff at this point. If Carp were healthy and was our opening day starter I would like a Carp, Wainer, Galvine rotation. I think it would be a good win in 08 move but things just are not alligned that way.
by ICbirdfan on Oct 24, 2007 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I posted this in another thread which fell off
All the conventional stats AND his tools indicate he should not be anywhere as good as he has been.
He doesn't strike many out. He walks more than you would like. He doesn't have good stuff.
Somehow he just gets results that are not easy to explain. He has put up a lower BAIP than average for years. He has also maintained a high LOB %. Both semi-violate well regarded stats rules.
Basically he is the exception to the stat heads rule. We cannot explain him
by DriverZn on Oct 24, 2007 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clement
by maffew on Oct 24, 2007 2:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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