It's all about Duncan
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6-9, 4.32 |
15-12, 4.40 |
Boy, sometimes I still really like watching J.D. Drew swing the bat. What a beautiful swing! It's the 2nd to last postseason series and finally one is competitive. I love game 7's though they're easier to digest when the Cards aren't actually playing. I'm also easier to get along with around the house. And, how about this - the starting pitchers include a home-grown pitcher (pitch-to-contact pitcher, as well) vs. a high-priced free agent acquisition.
Entering next season, the 3 OF positions seem to be pretty muddled. Edmonds' injuries and lack of productivity in '07 make him a question mark for CF. Ankiel's limited major-league (and, indeed, minor-league) experience lead us to wonder whether he'll play 140 games or 80. And, Duncan is probably our most valuable trading chip. With a number of holes to fill, it may become necessary to find Duncan another home and import a new LF. Nothing seems certain.
What we have:
| VORP | WARP1 | WPA | RC/27 | OPS+ | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Ankiel | 10.9 | 1.9 | 0.22 | 6.30 | 120 |
| Duncan | 17.3 | 3.7 | 1.42 | 6.36 | 115 |
| Edmonds | 4.9 | 2.8 | -0.76 | 4.43 | 88 |
| Ludwick | 10.9 | 3.0 | 0.69 | 5.92 | 110 |
| Schumaker | 10.1 | 1.1 | 0.48 | 5.87 | 111 |
| Taguchi | 5.5 | 2.2 | -0.19 | 4.42 | 88 |
In a perfect testament to how last season went, the worst outfielder (though it's a photo finish w/ Taguchi) was (naturally) the highest paid and, barring a big free agent acquisition, will be again this year. All of these should be under the control of the Cardinals (assuming we offer Ludwick a contract). The Cards hold a $1.1 M option on Taguchi.
If there are no OF acquisitions this offseason, the Cards likely will open the season w/ Duncan in LF, Edmonds in CF, and Ankiel in RF. Aside from Edmonds' noticeable drop-off in production, all 3 are lefties. Interestingly, for the first time in some years, the Cards were actually MORE productive vs. lefties than righties last year (.751 OPS vs. .739). However, some of this is due to the fact that the least-likely to return was the Cards' best hitter (in the OF) against lefties (omitting Ankiel's ridiculously low 51 PA's). If Taguchi doesn't return, someone will have to take those PA's against lefties. The natural assumption is that Ludwick would play more against lefties, but he was hardly a lefty-masher - "producing" just a .684 OPS in 139 PA's. This was not an anomaly as his career OPS vs. lefties is .704. Many have argued for Duncan to get more PA's against lefties, with good reason as he has just 142 for his career, but he's been downright feckless in those 142 PA's - offering up a robust .632 OPS. It's not a huge sample, of course, but it should cause us to question whether he'll ever be even marginally effective against southpaws.
Many have pointed to the competition between Schumaker and Taguchi for the 5th OF role as being one between 2 players with the same skill set. Wouldn't it be nice to let the 37 year old move on down the road and see what the youngster offers? To some degree, the Cards did this in '07 and Schumaker impressed. He can play all 3 OF positions and produced a 111 OPS+ in limited PA's. The best thing Taguchi brings to the table is his ability to hit lefties, as he became the primary platoon partner for Edmonds b/c of his .760 OPS against lefties. In the last 3 seasons, Skip has a .723 OPS in 270 minor-league AB's which doesn't exactly elicit a ton of confidence in his ability to regularly spell Edmonds, Duncan or Ankiel. Plus, we know what a beautiful couple Tony and So make so it's difficult to envision a divorce, assuming Tony returns. Still, Skip is out of options and stands to earn the minimum whereas So's option would guarantee him $1.1 M. I would find it difficult to justify the spending the extra $700,000 or so.
What we lack: Even so, it's difficult to fathom that the team will begin the year w/ Ankiel, Duncan, Edmonds, Ludwick, and Schumaker in the OF. 4 lefties and 1 righty who doesn't particularly hit lefties well? - doesn't sound like Tony's sort of team and doesn't sound like the makings of an offense that stands to be very competitive against southpaws.
There seems to be a need, therefore, for at least 1 right-handed hitting OF who hits lefties well. The need for a starting pitcher and the lack of a great number of good trading chips may lead to Duncan being traded, as many have already discussed. Also, considering questions abound regarding Rolen's ability to return to being a productive, middle of the order hitter, there is some speculation that the team may look to add one of the (relatively) big free agent outfielders on the market this offseason.
The Duncan option: It may become necessary to trade Duncan (or possibly Ankiel) in order to receive some young starting pitching. Aside from Pujols, he's the probably the one middle of the order hitter the team can reasonably count on for '08. He also probably has more trade value of anyone not named Pujols or Wainwright who is currently on the 40 man roster.
Duncan is under the Cards' control for 4 more years - he isn't even arbitration-eligible yet. He earned just $400,000 last year while being worth almost $9 M according to MORP for his play last year - when he spent almost half the season injured. It would be the height of irresponsibility to trade a productive, middle of the order hitter for a "proven veteran" with just 1 year left on his contract - i.e. Renteria or Jon Garland. There's been talk of A.J. Burnett being on the market and there's every reason to believe the Cards would be interested if that were the case. But even though Burnett still has 3 years on his contract, he can opt out of it after '08. Should he be considered a player who, like Renteria or Garland, only has 1 year left on his contract? If he pitches well, he could hit another jackpot next offseason.
Clearly, if Duncan is to be shopped this offseason, the Cards should be on the lookout for a young pitcher(s) and/or shortstop who would be under the Cards control for at least 3 years. LB discussed this at length back in September, about the possibility of trading him to the Giants. As I said, it's important that any trade of this sort result in young pitchers the Cards have under their control rather than someone like Garland.
The FA options:
- Barry Bonds
- Milton Bradley -- discussed at length here
- Kosuke Fukudome
- Luis Gonzalez
- Jose Guillen*
- Torii Hunter
- Andruw Jones
- Bobby Kielty - could work as a 4th OF to hit vs. lefties
- Aaron Rowand
- Shannon Stewart -- Yuck!
- Moises Alou*
- Bob Abreu*
- Adam Dunn*
There are few good options here. Fukudome might be, but the Cards tend to be too conservative an organization to give long-term contracts to players who are unproven (in the U.S.). The CF's are the best players on the list (non-Bonds version) but signing one of them to a 5+ year, $50 + million contract makes no sense given that the only top-notch prospect the Cards have is a CF and is probably less than a year from being ready. Bradley makes some sense, as LB addressed.
The difficulty of adding an everyday OF through free agency makes it more difficult to trade Duncan as well. If the Cards trade Duncan for pitching, they don't have a lot left to trade for OF help. So it seems that the Cards could only trade for an OF if that person is a 4th OF who has something to offer vs. lefties or if Reyes (or Reyes +) can be traded for a young OF who might be able to play every day but who might also produce the way Reyes has for most of the last couple of years.
LB has already raised the possibility of Reyes being traded for Michael Bourn, and maurerdj suggested a Reyes for Carlos Quentin swap. Either is a pretty good option. Bourn's a lefty so a righty would still need to be added as a 4th OF, but it would be better than adding Aaron Rowand.
Rowand is not a bad player, of course, but he does have only a career OPS+ of 106. He'll turn 32 in August and has played every season of his career in hitters' ballparks. His career OPS+ on the road is 97. It's likely he'll require at least a 4 year commitment, and possibly 5, which would mean the Cards would be on the hook for his contract - at $10-12 M per year - for until he's 36 or 37. PECOTA has him worth about $28 million for 2008-2011. Because of his style of play, he likely won't age well, either. Signing him may appear to make the Cards better on paper, but will only serve to block younger OF's while tying up payroll that will be needed to bolster the roster in the coming years. In short, he'll be outplayed over the length of his contract by younger players who will earn much less money over that period.
Bourn, on the other hand, would be under the Cards' control for 5 more years, as would Quentin, and they both earn the minimum. They would be blocking no one and would be entering the prime of their careers rather than being on the downside of their careers. These are the types of players the Cards need more of -- young players w/ lots of upside.
Trading Duncan will be a difficult proposition as there's no readily available replacement. Perhaps trading Ankiel makes more sense but, considering his defense and power, is his upside larger and trade value less? Has Duncan reached the peak of his trade value? If so, and the Cards decide to cut bait on him, they must maximize their return. Garland doesn't do that. Neither does Renteria. Burnett? Maybe.
The best option, if Duncan is traded, is to trade Reyes for some young OF or SS. Bourn, Quentin or perhaps, Lastings Milledge provide youth, financial flexibility, and a high upside that other, older players simply don't offer. Players like Rowand and Guillen, though productive now, are in their early 30's and will begin to decline sooner, rather than later. And they'll require 3-4 year commitments at $10-12 million per, at least. If the Cards really want to go for it next year w/o sacrificing long-term player development, they should sign Bonds to a 1 year deal for about $16 million. I doubt they will - Bonds isn't popular...anywhere outside of the Bay Area but he offers more next year than any other OF on the market and won't block any of our young OF's.
If Duncan stays, someone needs to be added who can spell the 3 lefties in the OF, and hit southpaws w/ some success - a 4th OF type. In that case, some of the best options (of players who might be available) are Reed Johnson, Jason Michaels, and Scott Hairston.
These players may be available through trade or might even be DFA'd. They're not household names, to be sure. But they do offer a history of good production vs. lefties, and an ability to play at least 2 of the 3 OF positions. Adding one of them to Duncan, Ankiel, Edmonds, and Ludwick would create platoon opportunities that should make the OF fairly productive. Adding one of these players would allow the '08 Cards to be reasonably productive in the OF w/o sacrificing the long-term player development this organization needs.
We'll truly be able to tell the direction the team is heading by what they do w/ Duncan's roster spot. If he's traded for someone like Garland so that Aaron Rowand can be signed - it's a significant step backward.
If he's traded for Lowry and Jonathan Sanchez, and then Reyes (and another) for Quentin or Bourn, we'll be witnessing the commitment Bill DeWitt recently referred to.
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The giants are in need of OF
I am sure they prize Cain but at the same time they really have a surplus of pitching and Duncan is probaly close to a similar value. 30hr potential doesn't grow on trees either.
As to the ?, I would dangle Skip, Ludwick, Thompson, and/or Looper. Their GM made a comment about needing proven middle relief.
forgot to add
Duncan 115 OPS+
Duncan was on a bit of a down year but both are young and under team control for several years. Cain's numbers were likely slightly improved by his park while Duncan was slightly hurt by his.
If we can get this done with a low to mid grade add in, I would go for it.
If they trade Cain, that would just be stupid.
Duncan > Crawford
FWIW BP agrees, at least in terms of WARP3/PA:
warp3 pa warp3/627 PA
ludwick 3.9 339 7.21
duncan 4.6 432 6.68
crawford 6.3 627 6.30
Note that those are including the ~50 PA's it took Ludwick to remember how to hit a major league pitcher and the ~100 PA's that duncan played with his guts hanging out, yet they still project to be better than Crawford. I do agree, none of these are worth Lincecum or Cain, but imho Crawford is massively overvalued and our talent is massively undervalued.
Fukudome, please!
Honestly
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 21, 2007 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions
would TorIi Hunter
are there any down sides to giving him $12-$15mil a year?
health isnt an issue, unlike most of the Cards current outfielders.
he's a great team mate. he's great with the fans. he's a vet so Tony will love him.
i know you are thinking, can he hit lefty's? well here's his career averages vs lefty's
.282 .339 .490 .829
he is arguably the best CF in the game. dont believe me? click the link & see for yourself.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hunteto01.shtml
i'm all about Torii wearing the Birds on the Bat.
make it happen Billy. make it happen.
but if you sign hunter now
hunter doesn't hit enough (career ops of .793) to get shifted to a corner. he's a very good player, but he doesn't address an area of need.
i admit
i will say this, i agree with your suggestion that the Cards take a look at Bradley. his crazyness aside, the dude can play. Tony would have his work cut out for him. but if he could handle Ricky Henderson, dont you think he can handle Bradley?
the one thing that scares me with putting all of our faith in rasmus & the other kids is, what if they are all a bust? what if they are nothing more than AAAA players? its happened a million times in baseball. sure fire stars in the minors are destened for coperstown, but they never pan out. what if rasmus & the others are busts? what do the Cards do then? i think picking up torii covers the Cards in case rasmus cant cut it as a major leaguer.
dont get me wrong. i do in fact hope rasmus is the second coming of grady sizemore. but what if he's not? what then? dont you think it's a smart move to have back up plan? i dont think any one's asked this before but i've been meaning to.
if the Cards do sign torii, & rasmus is a star, will it be hard that hard to move torii? do you think the Cards would have to eat lets say half of his salary unless a big market team is desperate for a middle aged center fielder? the fear of being stuck with another edmonds in 4 years is obviously a concern. and no one wants that, even me. i guess the question is, should we expect torii to have the same type of dramatic fall off that jimmy has?
centerfielders
bernie williams fell off like jimmy
can someone who is great with the research back me up or refute this
i believe CF and C seem to age the worst
well,
rather than have two cfs on the team
Bonds, anyone?
Agreed
by maffew @ Viva El Birdos on Oct 21, 2007 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
the team needs a righty hitter
by willievinceterry on Oct 21, 2007 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Hunter
by maffew @ Viva El Birdos on Oct 21, 2007 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't know...
by willievinceterry on Oct 21, 2007 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
but bonds won't play everyday
by willievinceterry on Oct 21, 2007 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Interested in Bonds
A possible lineup of
- Ankiel
- Bonds
- Pujols
- Rolen (lots or RBI chances - get healthy SR!)
- Edmonds (you too, Jimmy)
- Molina
- Kennedy
- Pitcher (welcome back TLR)
- Ryan
by Hoosier Cards on Oct 21, 2007 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
that is a s-l-o-w lineup
but the fact remains, this team has four LH-hitting outfielders returning (plus spiezio, a SH, and rasmus, a lefty), and only ludwick batting from the right side. without a decent RH outfield bat to add in, at least on a platoon basis, they are going to get eaten alive by LH pitching. adding yet another LH bat does not make sense.
i also have to wonder what duncan's dad still being here might have to do with him staying or going. i feel like skip, for one, has to be dealt, even though he won't bring much in return.
by willievinceterry on Oct 21, 2007 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Once again
I know he wouldn't play every day but neither does Duncan. He's bad defensively. So is Duncan. He doesn't get the team any younger but would help the team be competitive next year in preparation for Rasmus and others in '09. He wouldn't require a long-term contract and could almost certainly be signed for 1 year only.
This is all moot, since it will never happen. Nonetheless, the idea that Bonds wouldn't help this club is just silly.
i didn't say he wouldn't help
by willievinceterry on Oct 22, 2007 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions
comprehension
as far as your other points most are very much dead-on; bonds is a widely despised 40-something, he will prolly miss 30-50 games, and we have a glut of lefty outfielders
but bonds, if he were on the bench, would be my first choice to pinch-hit, against ANY pitcher in baseball, i dont care about left or right when it is bonds, and neither does he
by bigcardsfan5 on Oct 22, 2007 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions
i am pro mr bonds
fair enough
jason bay was talked about below, but personally i think he's over rated. and like hardcore said, he is not clutch.
nice job HC
Mike Cameron
Corey Patterson
Kenny Lofton
Shawn Green
Geoff Jenkins *
Jose Cruz JR
Brad Wilkerson
I've been trumpeting
Down on the farm
Some of you keep up with the minor leagues. What is your impression. Can this guy play?
by Anteus on Oct 21, 2007 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I really intended to have a section
There are OF's at AA and AAA who could be close -- within a year or 2. It's likely that none are stars, but there are a few who could be productive at the major league level. Mather's power is intriguing.
Yeah, I decided against
Cruz Jr/Wilkerson/Stavinoha/Mather
As for those pointing out Stavinoha's subpar numbers in AAA, that is fine, but he has a MASSIVE platoon split.
His OPS against RHP was 850? I am not saying this guy is a world beater but he isn't as bad as the 683 OPS most people are trotting out...
As for the premise of the post, while interesting - and makes tons of sense to me by the way - I just don't see LaRussa rubber stamping a move to trade Duncan...
I vote Jose Cruz Jr, and back it up on the farm...
Well done
How about
Baldelli would definitely upgrade our defense and speed, and could lead off. The question of course is can he stay healthy. I don't know enough about his DL stays to say whether they're chronic or not.
I don't think we want Gomes, he seems too one-dimensional. Crawford I'm sure, is now out of reach. I suggested a Reyes and Duncan trade for him in the past and was shouted down as giving up too much. I'd do Reyes and Anderson for Baldelli.
I'm ready to duck, so fire away.
by vinniefromjersey on Oct 21, 2007 9:07 AM EDT reply actions
If they really want to win now
Don't we have to sign Bonds?
Which would free up Duncan for a trade. Which leads me to ask.
Duncan/Reyes/X for Santana
So what would X have to be?
Milton Bradley would be the best choice
I know he has injury issues, and he's had anger problems to be sure, but he has also managed to go long stretches with Oakland and San Diego without incidents.
Show Bradley some love and respect, and I think he'll play well for you in between DL stints.
I see him as an impact player that's worth taking a flyer on-he has no holes in his game, and if he were to stay healthy all season (a big IF) he would post monster numbers.
I was not that keen
not more offensively
by willievinceterry on Oct 21, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Barry has been one of the best offensive
Paul Byrd = HGH
You almost have to know that Carpenter and Morris are next. Basically any pitcher that was recovering from arm surgery from 2003-2005 probably got the stuff.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 21, 2007 11:10 AM EDT reply actions
now see....
im fine with people taking HGH as long as it was at least theoretically prescribed legally to RECOVER from injury
im even less inclinded to get mad at pitchers, because theyre injuries generally take several months to over a year to heal
taking it to hit the ball 30 feet further or throw harder is where i seem to frown on the idea
You know, I'm not necessarily going to
this was from 2002-2005
right
by willievinceterry on Oct 21, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Please!
When people are in the news, they get looked at differently than when they're not. That's what this is an example of -- not some media scumbag who's just out to hurt the Indians.
it's bad timing either way
by willievinceterry on Oct 21, 2007 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions
A few thoughts:
- Trading away Reyes along with a reliever to the D-Backs, who saw their split-personality bullpen ripped apart by the Rockies might get it done for Quentin if the the Cards are willing to put a good reliever or two in the trade. I think most on this board would strongly advocate for brining in someone like Quentin who would provide a talented young right handed bat to combine with Duncan as corner outfielders.
- While you say yuck to Shannon Stewart, it is important to remember four things about him:
b. Will cost significantly less than Rowand in both years and dollars.
c. Might be cheaper than brining back Eckstien and would fill the roll as right-handed outfielder and leadoff hitter.
Based on the above, an ideal outfield rotation for the 2008 Cards would be:
Duncan
Edmonds
Ankiel
Quentin
Stewart
Three lefties, two righties, one is a leadoff hitter.
Best of all, such a group would cost the Cards little for 2008, allowing the team to move forward with a cheaper middle infield of Hoff, Kennedy, and Ryan.
Stewart
"Stewart - made just a million last year and finished with an OPS+ of 101. He finished w/ an OPS of .739, including .699 vs. lefties. Restricted to LF. By all accounts he's an atrocious defensive player. Pass."
I'll admit the Cards could do worse. I'd rather sign him for $1-2 M for 1 year than Rowand for 4 or 5 years. But he doesn't help the team in CF or RF and is even worse than Duncan in LF. If we could trade for Quentin, we could use him in LF or just play Duncan vs. lefties to see if he could ever do it. It wouldn't be a horrible move but any of the 3 I mentioned toward the end of the post are better options.
Given the lack
I'm not at all happy
All that said, and I know I'm in the minority here, but I don't think a special effort should be made to find a "leadoff hitter." We need to find the best players and hitters we can at each position, and let one of them bat first. Who can get on most often in front of Pujols? That person should hit leadoff. I'm not opposed to anyone hitting leadoff, assuming his OBP is high enough -- and I mean anyone -- Edmonds, Duncan, Ankiel -- I don't really care.
Like I said, I know I'm in the minority. You can think me crazy if you like but I don't believe in playing an inferior player just b/c he might be a better "leadoff hitter."
let's hope we are "outbid" on rowand
by willievinceterry on Oct 21, 2007 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Atlanta is not going to trade Lillibridge;
I know it's a pipe dream
I don't think it's realistic, esp. given that LaRussa's coming back, but a man can dream, can't he?
One problem:
However, they will need to make some space to sign Glavine. But Andruw will (at least should) be off their payroll this year to cover that.
The have every intention of keeping
I don't see the big deal over a leadoff
And now for something completely different...
Dice-K looked scared (at least to me) earlier in the ALCS... Westbrook might get lit up, but he ain't gonna be scared!
And for all the moaning and groaning (in multiple cities) about "curses" and l-o-n-g streaks without WS titles, how 'bout a little love for poor ole Cleveland? Their last championship in anything came in 1964 with the old NFL Browns! Since then, they've had their hearts ripped out by John Elway, Michael Jordan, and the freakin' Atlanta Braves (the Bravo's one WS win in their decade-and-a-half playoff run)! Go, Tribe!
As far as the Cardinals' OF for 2008... I got nuthin'; I don't know nuthin'; heck, I don't even suspect nuthin'! I agree that Chris Duncan is the Birds' most attractive trading chip; but I can't escape the nagging feeling that the Cardinals need him worse than any other team! I agree the Birds gotta get a legit #2 starter, and there ain't jack on the FA market... but after that, my brain just shuts down! (Skippy, if you're readin' this, learn how to switch-hit this winter! You've got a better shot at stayin' in The Show if ya do!)
Indians are screwed
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 21, 2007 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Many in the media
He had a prescription
Not only was it prescribed, it's discussed in the BOOK HE WROTE. Byrd says he never tried to hide it, as it was prescribed and wasn't banned by the MLB. He paid for it with a credit card for cryin' out loud.
this is the kind of forthrightness
It seems like a lot of Card fans
Also, It seems that
Are these the same people
It should also be pointed out, that the only criticism of Ankiel in this thread was criticism of how he handled the whole story -- not criticism of his use of HGH.
If this was true
IMO, the reason these stories often seem timed is b/c events happen that lead reporters to investigate people/incidents that they wouldn't otherwise investigate. If the Indians weren't in the LCS, who is Paul Byrd and who the hell cares? So reporters follow leads on people who are already newsworthy.
At the time, Ankiel was very newsworthy so someone is more apt to leak some info and a reporter is more apt to follow a lead on someone who is in the news. It gives the impression that reporters sit on these stories if only to spring them at the most opportune moment. I think the truth is that people who are presently newsworthy (Byrd, now) are more interesting to reporters than they were otherwise.
Possibly
At this point, if all a guy was doing was HGH and he was doing it before it was a MLB banned substance, I really don't care. I hate to say it, but almost EVERYBODY was on this stuff or something else--HGH seems like the lesser of evils in a lot of cases.
i'm with you
that having been said, a disproportionate number of home teams who won game 6 (and needed to) went on to win game 7, so i'm not hopeful.
Another outfield option
I personally would like to keep Duncan and Reyes. I know that is not the consensus. Duncan has a solid OBP and good power. His defense is suspect, but I don't want to rely on Rolen and Edmonds for production again - we've been burned too many times. Why trade an asset like Duncan for a league average pitcher?
I think we could use Reyes in a Cal Eldred type role to give him a little more time to figure it out. I know he's frustrating, but if you just use him in mop up duty, maybe we could increase his value before we trade him. He's cheap and talented. Don't sell when he's high. If we could get someone very legitimate for a package that includes him - like AJ Burnett - then I would pull the trigger. I would be disappointed if we traded him for Bourn. I like the Quentin acquisition better, but I don't know that Quentin will be as good as Duncan, although he was a much better prospect.
by Toddius396 on Oct 21, 2007 4:32 PM EDT reply actions
Don't sell
by Toddius396 on Oct 21, 2007 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
They really have no choice but to sell
I did learn two fun facts about ARey while looking at some MLB/MiLB stats-he is the only player picked in the 15th round of the 2003 draft to make it to the ML as of the end of the 2007 season. Maybe a little perspective is in order sometimes when you look at players progress or lack thereof.
The other fact is that he has been a professional ball player for 4 seasons now, and he has never been charged with a fielding error-not one-since he's been a pro, majors or minors.
I'm also one of the random few who visit VEB that still has faith he can turn it around, and I will always question managements decision to try and turn him into a ground ball pitcher. If they didn't like the way he pitched, they should have traded him back in AA-for someone else's AA pitcher that was more to their liking.
I'd rather take Crawford or nothing
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 21, 2007 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
jason bay is another possibility
has he been discussed on here?
by willievinceterry on Oct 21, 2007 7:52 PM EDT reply actions
I like the idea
We would be buying low.
His right handed bat would compliment the lefty outfield.
If there were such a thing as 'clutch'
He was very bad this year and I fear he isn't really going to rebound from it.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 21, 2007 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Career numbers
Late & Close - .211/.327/.393
Tie Game - .281/.380/.517
Within 1 R - .280/.375/.503
Um ok???
Jason Bay 2005-2007
Late & Close - .205
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 21, 2007 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
By Year
2 outs, RISP - .267/.413/.533
Late & Close - .273/.387/.545
Tie Game - .319/.413/.548
2006
2 outs, RISP - .246/.441/.449
Late & Close - .152/.331/.239
Tie Game - .263/.374/.526
2007
2 outs, RISP - .263/.341/.447
Late & Close - .193/.277/.337
Tie Game - .226/.307/.451
If anything this just shows that Clutch is a myth. Unless you only buy into the Late & Close for the last 2 years (but that would mean his 2 out RBI's down by 2 are worthless.)
I think he has a better chance of returning to an All-Star level than Pinerio does.
What does Jason Bay have to do with
He will take an OF spot from Ankiel or Duncan.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 22, 2007 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I still think it would cost a lot
Aaron Rowand
For the record
I don't know
The Twins would be getting 4-5 years of Cabrera, 3-4 years of Wang, and 6 years of Kennedy -- that's not a bad haul. If they insist on the package you suggest, they may end up w/ a 1st round pick and a supplemental. Which is better?
Eh
Taking my own advice
true enough
George Mitchell is on the board
Just makes the whole Byrd thing look even more dirty.
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 21, 2007 8:27 PM EDT reply actions
w/o dealing with the game 7 thing
Awesome - bases loaded inning ending double play
by BTown Birds fan on Oct 21, 2007 8:49 PM EDT reply actions
Returning to form
Jake westbrook
Home Grown Starter?
They?
I agree, though, about how many "facts" are incorrectly stated by announcers.
by DizzyDean17 on Oct 21, 2007 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I was assuming you were talking about
True enough
That was madness
That will cost them
Cleveland is choking this series away.
Where is Yadier Molina
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 21, 2007 11:10 PM EDT reply actions
someone on here compared this to 04
by punchinjudy on Oct 21, 2007 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Cleveland is...
Now since the Red Sox have some momentum, let's see how much longer the Rockies can keep theirs.
Pedroia's homerun...
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Oct 21, 2007 11:40 PM EDT reply actions
the guys hit the ball hard all series
by punchinjudy on Oct 21, 2007 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Youkilis hits the coke sign
And the Boston crowd chants nananana....
by Petkovsek on Oct 21, 2007 11:49 PM EDT reply actions
I wonder if Colorado
I bet Tony is still pissed about that.
I had to turn the game off, the whole Red Sox origanization makes me ill.
The Red Sox
Then when they finally got back to their hotel in some small town an hour away from the stadium the players and their family were left with having to eat cheap hotel hamburgers and pizza.
Tony was HOT about this and he had a point.
It was the Red Sox's responsibility to book the Cardinals hotel rooms for the World Series. And they made them stay at some out of nowhere hotel.
That's BUSH LEAGUE! But that's the Red Sox for ya.
If they do...
That was low.
I hate Boston
- I can't believe Eric Wedge left Betancourt in for as long as he did. He obviously didn't have it tonight . . . and yet never got pulled.
- Casey Blake really effed the Indians with his DP and botched fielding.
- Tim McCarver should not allowed to talk about baseball. Ever.
Am I the only one who thinks
And McCarver -- yeah, f-awful! Just don't speak, Tim!
Yeah I think if Lofton would have scored
But the Indians choked this series plain and simple. Hafner, Peralta, Blake, their two pitching aces, Skinner and even Eric Wedge all choked. I can't stand the Res Sox, but Cleveland deserves to go home for the winter.
and the Fox network is relieved....
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Oct 21, 2007 11:55 PM EDT reply actions
wow nice catch kid!
by RosevilleRedbird on Oct 21, 2007 11:56 PM EDT reply actions
Who wins the MVP?
by Ankiels Missing Curveball on Oct 21, 2007 11:58 PM EDT reply actions
Ok so which Rockies player
Seriously I wouldn't be suprised for this to happen.
we need a poll
He did buy it
my comment wasn't about Ankiel
It's also very unfair to the players to have this kind of "outing" take place at the whim of some bored prosecutor's intern. If there's a list, the entire list needs to be released or none of it, and it should be released by the professionals who compiled it, not by some guy with an agenda.
If the reporter is lying,
Not to say that any of this is guaranteed to happen, but a falsely accused player does have recourse against an unscrupulous reporter.
Say what you will about the modern media, but they are certainly capable of protecting their bottom line. Dan Rather had his career ruined over poor sourcing on a story that was essentially true.
Dan Rather was not a normal story
I think SleepyCA has a very legitimate point.
Newspapers (and other media outlets) are much more protected than people who are being written or spoken about. Because you have to prove harmful intent (the harm cannot simply be a result of the story), it's very difficult to sue for libel, even if the information is incorrect and even if it injures the person's reputation.
And journalist's always protect their sources. What fining are you talking about for not disclosing sources? How often do you think that happens? How often are people actually punished for being factually incorrect? I don't believe it's a frequent occurence, at least it's not for some of the papers I've dealt with in terms of public figures.
by nycardfan on Oct 22, 2007 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course the dan rather thing wasn't normal
Who are all the falsely accused here? To me, it seems like editors have many faults--not educating readers on background, for example, but on the whole, they are too conservative with respect to breaking stories, not too aggressive. There was circumstantial evidence circling around most of the 'known' juicers long before anyone actually broke the stories.
Libel is extremely difficult for anyone
I wouldn't depend on the good will of a banker if I were doing business with them. Why should I have to do that with a newspaper, their staff, and their anonymous sources? So to answer your question, anyone could be accused and anyone could have their reputations damaged without proper recourse. Since baseball is awash in money and power, it doesn't seem that far away from politics to me.
Your post itself shows some of the minor problems with news reporting when you lump recent HGH reports (which could be prior to 2005 and could be used for post-surgical healing) into "juicing" as though it's equivelent to steroid use and is illegal in all cases.
by nycardfan on Oct 22, 2007 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Youre inferring stuff from what I posted
On almost all of the cases that anyone cares about, there is almost no dispute about the sources, anonymous or not. And the reason is that editors aren't going to run a story based on nothing--the cost/benefit runs way too aggressively to the cost side.
And if you want to cite the political press, it gets far worse--they are absurdly conservative with breaking stories. It took them three years to break Iran-Contra. They never really explained it. The downing street memo has still not broken in the mainstream american press. There are numerous examples of the mainstream press sitting on political stories for too long because they pushed the envelope too far.
Sorry I lumped that together
Sitting on a story does not necessarily speak to an ethically healthy enviornment, especially when you are talking about things like Iran-Contra or stories about the first or second Iraq wars, etc. That can simply speak to political pressures or ideological biasis.
There are plenty of examples during elections when stories are rushed out and are not checked properly or stories where sources show an agenda in terms of their timing and location. I don't see why this can't happen in baseball as well.
My point is really about lack of protections for celebrities and regular citizens alike. I think newspapers should have to be as responsible as any other business. They should not have legal loopholes that allow them to act carelessly with people's reputations. I guess I'm making a more general observation that can also apply to baseball.
by nycardfan on Oct 22, 2007 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
oops--I didn't mean to imply
by nycardfan on Oct 22, 2007 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
valatan
It might be a naïve point
I've enjoyed your posts
by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
It was his
i see your point
by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
We'll suffice it to say that I wasn't defending
i would probably find that discussion interesting
by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I should have said I understand your point,
by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I really don't like to insult people,
I respect your strong feelings on these issues
These exchanges have illuminated the slippery slope of even mentioning politics as an example. I didn't think Val and I were discussing politics. I thought we were discussing journalism and baseball, and were using political examples to make a point about reporting. And I didn't read Val as making a political statement. But I guess this is where the slippery slope can come in for different readers when politics is broached, even as an example.
Thanks for your honesty and general apology. You didn't really take a shot at me. But I appreciate them anyway.
by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Cool aid drinker?
Valatan's a good guy and I know I'm cool as the backside of the pillow.
Political discussions are taboo here. Plenty of other places to run in circles.
Thanks guys
- Millionaire baseball players aren't completely defenseless against the big bad press, as the Wayne Hagin/Todd helton fracas indicates
- Reporters can't get away with printing any dam thing they want indefinitely. Things will eventually catch up with them, and the bigger the lie, the more likely it is to catch up--just because you can't believe everything you read, and that all writing deserves critical anaylsis, doesn't justify a "don't believe anything the guys say, they can just lie anyway" attitude. I was trying to argue against the latter, and perhaps came off too strongly.
- Editors tend to be very conservative with what stories they break, particularly when they are controversial stories, like a steroid allegation--the problems with the reporting have more to do with poor emphasis and analysis rather than outright lying.
I can find common ground
by nycardfan on Oct 23, 2007 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
And if the article comes out
Baseball should be played on the field and a reporter should never be in a position to influence the outcome, as I believe they were in 2007 in the NL Central pennant race, in the AL East race in 2007, and in game 7 of the ALCS.
He shaved his head,
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Oct 22, 2007 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I know you follow
but I think he's suffering (for lack of a better term) from male pattern baldness as well...which could be a reason why he went with the clean shaven look.
by player2bnamedl8r on Oct 22, 2007 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I know
by Scarlet the Cardinal on Oct 22, 2007 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't care for boston
manny, schilling, drew....but the good news is now the Cards can hire Antonetti sooner then later.
i was thinking the same thing
by willievinceterry on Oct 22, 2007 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions
i do have to say
And since the rox are going to win ithe WS in 3 games, it doesn't matter that boston won...
Those odds aren't any better
Theme song to "The Drew Carey Show"
I have a sincere and completely unfounded hatred for Kevin Youkilis. Anyone know why I might not like him? (I'm serious. I can't think of a single reason not to like the guy, but I just do. Maybe it's the ridiculous goatee??)
i think it is the goatee
the funny thing is, the red sox have to sit one of ortiz and youkilis in games 3, 4, and 5. silly DH rule.
by willievinceterry on Oct 22, 2007 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions
i mean
by willievinceterry on Oct 22, 2007 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions
He's the Greek God of Walks
by player2bnamedl8r on Oct 22, 2007 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions
OT: The 'jump'
by Hardcore Legend on Oct 22, 2007 12:36 AM EDT reply actions
This ALCS reeked of the
gawd i hate boston
there better not be one freakin sox fan in the stands at Coors. we've all seen games at Coors when east coast teams visit & bring all their fans with them. heck even when the Cards show up there are more Cards fans than Rockies fans.
dont let those drunken, arrogant, chowder lovin bandwagon sox fans take over Coors Colorado.
dont let it happen.
shock the world rockies. no team & fan base deserves to get kicked in the balls more than the red sox.
especially with Mitchell on his wichhunt. what he's doing is beyond low.
sorry every one, i really hate boston.

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