Cardinals re-sign Joel Pineiro/ 2yr

This line scares me a bit on the money issue:

"Terms of the pending deal were not disclosed as Pineiro traveled to St. Louis to undergo the physical; however, the contract's annual average value is expected to exceed the one-year $4 million contract he signed with the Boston Red Sox last winter."

I think it might be a 9-10M deal.  Which probably won't be too bad.  Hopefully he pitches the way he did at the end of the season.

for his 2008 ERA is 5.00

Anything above $2 million per is a mistake. I'm bracing for 2/10. Yuck...

Can we hire a GM please?

this thing all depends on the money.  Anything with the average salary of 4-6 over the two I'm fine with.  6-8 over the two makes this questionable, but given the options, probably not horrible.
Anything over 8 and this deal is no good.

is that Mozeliak is doing this in lieu of interviewing for the GM job.  Now, I'm biased b/c I want an outsider (Antonetti or Woodfork) to get the job but, you'd have to think that Mozeliak's resume to DeWitt will be -- Look at all the signings I made happen.  I've single-handedly filled many of our holes (esp. if he brings back Eckstein).  Will DeWitt read anything that says "Good God, you overpaid for Springer, and Pineiro (and, gasp, Eckstein)?"  I doubt it.

Hopefully one of the other candidates will bring it up.  To me, this is showing how eminently UNqualified Mozeliak is but it may give the impression that he's qualified.

Why don't you sit this next one out, stop talking for a while.

No wonder agents love Mozeliak!

What a horrible contract at 2 years and $13 million. I am scared for what Eckstein will get. How about the 4 years and 40 million the Cards wouldn't pony up for Edgar back in 2004?

I don't think 6.5 mill/yr is that bad.  Face it pitching is getting more expensive and this deal seems pretty cheap if he even pitches like he did for us in the 2nd half of 07.

Who do all you negative people think we should get? Our system has no pitcher better than Joel.  He is not blocking a singler arm at this point.  I think the deal seems reasonable.

Livan Hernandez and Josh Fogg will be so over priced it will not be funny.  Fogg more so because he has never really done anything either.

What pitchers do you guys want?

Is puting down more cash over two years than Baron von Kippington, Lord of Wells was paid this year, hoping that a pitcher who has stunk up the joint for 3 years can recover under Duncan and put up his second half numbers, which in my eye were the results of executing his pitches only after he loaded the bases with a single, a missile off the center field fence, and a walk.  This is kind of nerve-racking.  

I've said several times that this staff is made up of a #2, borderline ace (Wainwright), and a whole bunch of 4s and 5s.  Add Mr. Piniero to the list.  I certainly hope he's more like Dave Stewart, Woody Williams, or Todd Stottlemyre than Kip Wells or Brett Tomko.  I'll admit he's got some good stuff...But three years of stinking scares me.  

Are you kidding me?

that is all.

DeWitt said the Cardinals were going to go after a frontline starter this off-season.  

Who are they going to get?  They've got atleast $14 M left to play with.  AJ Burnett for $12 M?

That would leave them $2 M to get an OF bat or a SS.

Does Looper become a priority to trade and clear his $5.5 M?  That buys them $7 M for a SS.

Rotation
Burnett
Wainwright
Pineiro
Mulder
Thompson

Ugh.  Who knows.

But it should not have cost that much money.

As soon as the talks got over 9M it should have been "Well kid, have fun with free agency."

As a question for someone who is a better statistician than me, how well would Piniero have to perform over the next two seasons to be worth 13M dollars?

I wanted to bring back Jo-el, but I certainly didn't think it would take that much.  I'm holding my ire in for now, but if we re-sign Eckstein I'm going to be ticked.

Hmm, I don't know what to think right now.  I won't say this is horrible, and I most certainly won't say this is good.  BUT, aren't there larger fish to fry??  Here are what our priorities should have been prior to Piniero signing:

1. HIRE A REAL GM!!!  If you want Mozeliak making moves, remove the "interim" from his title, but if you don't want him handling the big kid tasks, get someone else in here!!
2.  Once the GM is hired, handle the LaRussa and Duncan situation.  It's simple.  LaRussa likes the GM, he probably stays.  He doesn't, he goes.  And no matter what anyone else says, Duncan will do whatever LaRussa does.
3.  Start your off-season resignings, trades, signings, etc.  But get your front office and manager situation fixed first.  Piniero is ultimately Duncan's "project".  What if Duncan isn't here next season? Wait, what's that flushing sound??? 13 million down the toilet.  Who knows what Joel will do the next two seasons, but I'd sure like to be certain that his "mentor" is going to be in that dugout with him in '08 and '09.  If not, I hope we have a clause in his contract that voids the entire thing if LaRussa and Duncan bolt town.  

Again, I am waiting to pass judgement as far as how I feel about the signing.  There have been and will be too many average pitches that sign bigger AND smaller contracts.  On paper it doesn't look so hot, but when you have so many average/below average pitchers signing enormous contracts, I wouldn't mind having one with a slightly better upside and previous extended success for a lot less money and years.  Take a look at this:

Here are some #s since 2003 (thru 2007) for two pitchers, the same age:            

              ERA    W-L     IP    Salary
Pitcher A   4.96   44-51  804  2008:6 mil   2009:7 mil

Pticher B   4.47   52-49  860  2008:11 mil  2009:11 mil

Pitcher C   4.83   48-45  738  2008:7.7 mil 2009:8.5 mil

By now I'm sure you figured out that pitcher A is Pineiro.  But look how he stacks up to other pitchers his age and caliber.  I am, like I said, withholding judgement for now.  However, I did find this information interesting.  

Oh, by the way.  Pitcher B was Gil Meche (who is also signed with KC in '10 and '11 for 12 mil each year), and pitcher C was Adam Eaton (who has a mutual option in Philly for '10 at 9 mil).  

this is a horrible horrible deal.

CAN WE HIRE A GM PLZ K THX

Mozeliak sure likes spending money, doesn't he?

... it's not Lohse.

I think you have to look at the signing in 3 ways:

1.  Does the Pinerio signing preclude us from a better free agent that we would have been able to afford without him?

-opinion:  No for 2008, Maybe for 2009.  Anyone that has seen the free agent list for 2008 can't think that we'd get someone as good or better for 5 million.  Remember, just because we have money in the budget to spend, doesn't mean there is some magical player out there to spend it on.  Even if there was such player, they would have to then agree to sign with the Cardinals (I doubt Glavine/Schilling would come here unless we offered them crazy money) and that signing would have to fit in a budget (i.e. no crazy Suppan signings).  So in essence, we didn't spend our money (Dewitt spent his), and in 2008 Pinerio will be better (however marginally) than our alternatives.  It's difficult to say about 2009, and the detractors have a very valid point with this one. But, none of us know the budget for 2009 (or the free agents for that matter, players can still sign with their teams ala Mark Buehrle), but I expect contracts to go up, possibly making this deal a (relative) bargain.  Gulp

2.  Is Pinerio blocking someone that needs development IN THE MAJOR LEAGUES for 2008 or 2009?

-opinion- we are bereft of starting pitcher talent in AAA.  Reyes could possibly turn things around, but there are still 2 spots open in the rotation (and Reyes would probably need to earn a 5th spot, once he found his missing velocity).  

3.  Who does Pinerio replace from the 2007 team?  Will he be better than that person in 2008?  

-opinion- He was better than all but Wainright in 2007, so I would say yes to this.  He would seem to provide some stability to a position where we had very little.  While people seem to disagree on what he will provide, most people think he will at least be league averagish innings eater.  (Which I still contend that his 5 mil salary will be a bargain at the end of the year for a LAIE)

You may not agree with me in my opinions, but I think these are valuable questions to ask when evaluating the signing.  

Remember, every year everyone picks out 10 players they think the Cardinals should pick up.  Invariably 9 of them fail to perform or get picked for MUCH higher than what they were expected to go for (or both).  One of these players performs so well that the "expert fan" says, 'SEE, we should have signed him!'  It would be interesting to see what everyone said last year (Giles, Schmidt, Meche, etc.) and compare them to performance.  Hell, even Burnett (who I'd love to have), hasn't performed up to his contract so far due to (surprise!) injury.  

If you really want to evaluate what the Cardinals do this offseason, pick out who you would take over them (and for how much).  See how close you come to what they actually get, then see how they perform this year.  Invariably you will get some right and some wrong (but probably mostly wrong).  I think you'd be surprised how things are different in the "imperfect" world.

1. LaRussa & Duncan are back for next season.  Because yeah I think Pinerio can be our 2008 version of Jeff Suppan as long as Duncan is keeping his eye on Joel.
2. If DeWitt is serious about getting a "front line" starter later this winter. If that is just "talk" then I will be pissed. But if they are truely going to get a sure thing 13-15 game winner then signing Joel as a 4th or 5th starter I can live with even with the price tag.

At this point Tony & Dave really do need to come back for the next 2 years. I was ready for a change, but since we are going to go with all of the vets for the forseeable future, then Tony will be the best captain for the ship. And probably our best chance to guide this team to contend.

Even factoring in last year, his ERA over the last three years is 5.50+. I wanted Pineiro back, don't get me wrong, but for $6.5 million? Christ.

... isn't my strong suit. i don't really like this signing, for all the reasons mentioned here. but here's an optimistic take:

1. It's only two years: we're not getting locked into a 3 or 4 year deal, which marginal pitchers have been getting (Batista, Marquis, Eaton, Meche, etc.).
2. It's two years: After next year, we lose Mulder and Looper. We don't have any guarantees that anyone from the farm system will be MLB-ready by then. We don't know what to expect from Carp in '09. Basically, past '08 all we've got for sure is Wainwright. This provides some level of certainty. So we get some stability for '09 without having to go beyond that.
3. It's only $6.5mn/year: The average annual value is less than Marquis', or any of the marginal FAs signed last year. It will certainly be less than what Lohse or Silva is going to get. Like this signing or not, it is definitely below-market. Hell, Jeff Weaver was DFA last year, reclaimed by the Cards, pitched worse than Piniero (at least until the playoffs) and got $8mn this year. Assuming the Lohse/Silva types can get something like 3/$24 or 4/$32 (or more), this deal is substantially cheaper in both dollars and years than any other option.
4. It's worth it: I think it's probably reasonable to expect Piniero to provide 180+ innings @ ~ 4.50 - 5.00 ERA. In other words, it's reasonable to expect Piniero to match Looper's level of production from this year. In '08, Looper  will be making about the same as Piniero (since both deals are backloaded). If we're fine with Looper, why wouldn't we be fine with Piniero?
5. We didn't sacrifice prospects: The only other real options were to trade for a Contreras-type, who might not be any better, will have a higher salary, and will cost us prospects. By signing Piniero, we can afford to keep our prospects. This is consistent with the player-development philosophy that DeWitt (outwardly) espouses. Also, by not signing a Silva/Lohse type, we won't be giving up any draft picks.
6. There wasn't another option: Going into '08, our rotation options are (roughly in order of desirability) Wainwright, Looper, Reyes, Thompson, Mulder, Franklin, Maroth. Past Wainwright, the chances of any one of those guys completely washing out is pretty high. Adding as many possibly-average options as possible seems wise, when you don't have any proven commodities.

i'm not sure how convincing any of these are. but i'm trying to think of this as positively as i can.

say its a good signing on the poll over at stltoday.com/cards

interesting.

course that could change if the angry mob from veb seens this and heads over there!

me? i'm indifferent towards it. don't think its really that much of an impact move one way or the other. now if we bring eckstein back for a big package and multiple year...now then I'd be concerned.

I'm already sick of this offseason.  It seems like Cardinal nation is currently in complete disarray.

I'm really in the middle on this signing.  It caused me to utter an emphatic "Eh."  Really, it doesn't trigger armageddon-like prophecies to me like it does some people, but I also don't see him (now, this is my opinion on ABSOLUTE best-case scenario) posting an ERA under 4.  Really he's just that - an "eh" starter.

Thank God Auburn has been turning it around.  If we can beat LSU on Saturday night (I'm going, I'm STOKED), then I may be MIA from VEB for awhile.

i dont have time to type out an inteligent remark. that's all i have for now.

back and forth we go.  mo yes, mo no, someone new?  the real issue to me here is that the front office,including bdw, found it necessary to do this.  the real shame is the bankruptcy of our system that this deal emphasizes.  how can a draft of 50 players a year end up incapable of providing any internal, starting pitching for years at a time.  seems we don't need a gm as much as we need some voodoo!

saw some familiar faces blended in with lots a new ones..some humor, some rumors..

snow cones for everyone?
thats the real question witch backup catcher will return..or not

that is pretty much the way i feel about the joel signing

i do not see the signings as to date the same way as bobbyballgame, but he has every right to feel the way he does, in my opinion, i just think he is going a bit far on the negative side

i personally was hoping we would sign joel, but i was figuring more along the lines of 2 years and between 9-11 mil, so two years/13m isnt totally out of the realm

if he can pitch the way he did in those last ten starts, he is a 9m per year pitcher; but if he pitches like he did in seattle at the end, he would be lucky to be a 2m per year guy

so where will he land? prolly somewhere in the middle, 4.25-4.75 era, or basically league average, and if he does that, 6.5m per year is about right

i would be much more upset about this signing if he was clearly blocking someone, at this time, he is not

so did we overpay? maybe, but at least if we did, he was someone we had already seen pitching for us close up, and i would rather take a flyer on joel, than someone we had never worked with (see kip wells, 2007)

another thing about joel is that he never really got the chance to stretch out last year, this year we will get to see that, i just hope it is a good thing

Which, admittedly, is probably at a low after the Kip Wells debacle.

Pineiro was actually quite solid after coming to the Birds; half of his 11 starts were quality starts, and two more were only one out away. He gave up more than 3 runs only TWICE.

Many of his outings hovered around 5 innings, but for a guy coming out of the pen all year in Boston, and with our outstanding bullpen, I think that was just savvy managing by Tony. His stamina will likely improve next year as the season progresses.

I bet Pineiro is a solid #4 next year, and for around 6 mil per that ain't bad. Don't see why everyone is flipping out.

I wrote up a little piece on the signing: Pick a Card, Any Card...

I claimed somewhere in this thread that Pineiro and Suppan were similar pitchers before arriving in the Lou. Here's the table comparing the two over the four years before signing their two-year FA contracts with our beloved Redbirds:


AGE---BB/9---K/9----HR/9---FIP----G:F----P/IP
25----3.48---5.31---1.49---5.44---1.39---16.5
26----3.05---4.95---1.07---4.83---1.36---16.3
27----2.94---4.72---1.38---5.23---1.30---16.5
28----2.25---4.85---1.38---4.45---1.30---15.7
Ave---2.94---5.31---1.24---4.99---1.34---16.63

25----2.75---7.10---1.34---4.56---1.18---16.0
26----2.66---5.10---1.10---4.63---1.29---15.5
27----3.48---4.73---1.25---5.29---1.61---16.6
28----2.40---5.53---1.29---4.69---1.59---15.8
Ave---2.87---5.54---1.23---4.81---1.39---15.87

The Cards have made this deal before. It worked out then and isn't too wild a risk.

here's my thoughts. i know you've all been on pins & needles wondering what i had to say. so i wont make you wait any longer.

(yes, just like Dr. Cox i have a giant ego.)

i'm not a fan of this deal. it's way, WAY too much money for a guy who's only worth the league minimun.
my thinking is the Cards felt like they let Dream Weaver get away last year &
they think he could have been really successful under Dr. Dave.
they now feel the same about Joel, even though he was only here for barely two months.
he fits Dr. Dave's style & he started making progress so their thinking is, what the heck?
what do we have to lose? lets see if we can't strike gold one more time.

there really isn't a top of the line starter on the free agent market. and if they want one,
they are going to have to make a very unpopular trade and give up some kids to get some.
they say dont want to do that. so what can they do?
because with Tony & Dave still around they cant go into a full rebuilding mode because they wont stick around for one.

seams to me they really are trying to do both at the same time. rebuild, but also WIN NOW.

can it be done? maybe. but i dont want them to try it.

the Cards are confusing & disappointing me with this move.
it's more of the same old song & dance.
bring in a washed up vet & pray Dr. Dave can work his magic.

i thought they fired Walt because they weren't in the business of doing the same old song & dance

(yes, this was in the other thread, but it looks like all the cool kids are still playing in this thread so i put it in here)

does anyone know if this is the most comments ever for a diary?