NLCS Game 3 Open Thread

by lboros on Oct 14, 2007 5:54 PM EDT in St. Louis Cardinals News


hernandez	fogg
11-11, 4.93	10-9, 4.94

both of these pitchers will be free agents this winter. fogg outpitched livan this year and wasn't much worse than him last year, but he'll probably get offered about 1/2 as much as hernandez in terms of annual salary, and about 1/5 as much in terms of the overall package. his overall stats were extremely similar to brad thompson's --- allowed a .293 / .359 / .495 line, vs brad's .297 / .362 / .495 (starter only). i figure just about every organization has got a brad thompson-like chap on its 40-man, who can provide that level of performance for the league minimum . . . . yet some team will pay fogg $4m a year for the same output, and they'll pay livan hernandez $10m a year for not much better. whacky.

the new world record is in the books ---- the boys in o'fallon played more than 31 consecutive hours of baseball. congratulations, gents.

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I need to get off the Internet and stop reading

about the game. It's just freaking me out. Hopefully this one ends the same way Game 3 of the NLDS did for the Rox...

Rockies in October!

by Scarlet the Cardinal on Oct 14, 2007 6:50 PM EDT reply actions

Here's to

the new record. I wonder how long it'll last?

Oh, and Scarlet, don't freak out. Your boys are going to do just fine. Take a deep breath and relax. I predict they won't be leaving Coors field until the W.S. rolls their way.

"Requiescat In Pace - 2007 Zombie Cardinals"

by AustinBOB on Oct 14, 2007 8:33 PM EDT reply actions

Why are they even playing this game?

They should have just called it and bumped everything back a day.

I've never seen a game started with it pouring like this.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 14, 2007 8:44 PM EDT reply actions

Anyone read Joe Strauss' article Sunday

it appears the whole Lunhow situation (being in complete control of player development) is a big 'turnoff' to alot of veteran GMs and could present a problem for DeWitt looking to bring someone in.

Call up PJ Walters!

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 14, 2007 9:12 PM EDT reply actions

I read that

the fact that it's a turnoff to veteran GM's is inconsequential to me. They were all friends of Walt's and are, understandably, distraught about what happened to their friend. But we're not looking to bring in a veteran GM. We're looking to bring in a young, new GM whose methods will be very different than Walt's. This is the type of person we should be looking for so I'm not bothered by it one bit.

by chuckb on Oct 14, 2007 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions

Do you believe that even a young GM

is going to want to come into a job in which half of his duties are taken by someone else?

I don't think it has to do with new guard or old guard, I think it is about territory. Unless you have no experience and are just desperate for a shot at a GM job, I don't think someone would not want complete control.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Oct 14, 2007 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions

Thats right houstoncardinal

Who wants a GM that wants to play a chess match with ballplayers. I say grow 'em and play 'em like like the Rockies and Diamondbacks are doing. Just finished watching the game. Is Josh Fogg really as good as the two games I've seen him pitch in the playoffs or is he just pitching over his head. I didn't know he had the stuff he's showing.

by ridgesee on Oct 14, 2007 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions

The territorial limits that the new GM

will have to operate within seems like it would clearly influence whether we get strong or weak candidates (regardless of age or background). In fact, I would think candidates who have strengths and experience in player development might be especially turned off to the job because their own area of expertise would be curtailed by Luhnow's way of doing things.

If DeWitt had thought through the firing and immediately announced candidates he was considering, and stated why, he might be in a different PR situation. He should have focused attention on the future power of a new GM rather than on the present authority of Luhnow. The fact that after a week, the FO was still thinking about who they might call suggests that the firing was neither well planned or executed.

by nycardfan on Oct 15, 2007 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions

Does DeWitt really know what he is doing?

He's committed to Lunhow, and apparently committed to LaRussa on some level. So, he's trying to bring in a quality GM, but who likely will not have near term control over either the philosophy of the major league team, or over player development.

At this point, unless DeWitt picks Mozeliak, who apparently has been working reasonably well between these factions, for lack of a better term, this organization sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

by bailorg on Oct 15, 2007 2:22 AM EDT up reply actions

I think this is overblown

From what I've read, Jocketty chose not to work with Luhnow, that he cut himself off from that area of the organization since he'd have preferred to continue working with Bruce Manno instead of Luhnow.

The next GM won't have that problem and will have plenty of input over the player development system—he'll just have a competent lieutenant handling things on a day-to-day basis.

by liam on Oct 15, 2007 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions

that's not how it's been reported

and that's not how it's being received by other clubs, according to our reporters. It doesn't matter how it actually was, it matters how it is now perceived.

by nycardfan on Oct 15, 2007 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Livan vs. Fogg in $$

I don't think the market is quite that whacky. Obviously, the big difference here in past performance. Livan was somebody and remains a reliable 200 inning pitcher. Fogg is a never was. You can hope that the heavy workloads haven't taken the best years out of Livan and perhaps he will rebound to the man he was just three years ago but at a minimum you get a solid turn in the rotation 34 times a year. With Fogg, all you do is hope for the latter. If last year is any indication, it looks like Batista 3y-$25 and the Kipper 1y-$4. Which deal would you rather have, three years of Livan or Miguel or three one year deals of Wells, Fogg, etc. at a discount? The answer is circumstantial but I understand over-paying for stability and 200 innings are not so easy to find.

All my friends became Cardinal fans and grew up happy and liberal. I became a Cub fan and grew up embittered and conservative." -- George Will

by wannabeGedman on Oct 14, 2007 10:34 PM EDT reply actions